I think a big red flag is isolation - if your pastor doesn't want you to discuss what happens in your church with anybody but his chosen few or anybody outside your church there is a problem. If critical thinking is discouraged it's a problem.
Every church building we've ever left (whether we attended for 5+ years or more) meant leaving all of the people behind as well. Not willingly but because there was never an indepth personal relationship with fellow believers. We only did "ministry" things together but not life. It's a very empty setting in my experience. If you're not already family co-worker or friends outside the church, you'll seldom develop strong and lasting relationships with those you meet there. When you leave that church, you'll never hear from them again unless you just run into them around town.
Growing up in a legalistic baptist church and attending their school consumed my life as a teenager. When I met my now husband as a 17 year old, I was heavily involved in the school as a cheerleader, sang in a trio and had many friends. My boyfriend was a born again believer from a wonderful family but was from another denomination. I was encouraged to give him up by the pastor while I was at summer church camp. At first I caved but then I realized that this young many was all I had dreamed of/prayed for in a future spouse so I held onto him. I was ostracized, lost many friends, was removed as a cheerleader and replaced in the trio I'd sung in for several years. After graduation, I left that church. Despite the fact that there was a deacon board, the pastor was a domineering person. He preached the true gospel and many came to Christ but life revolved more around following the rules than fostering real relationships. I'm so glad my mother raised me to be strong and think for myself because I've been married to this wonderful man for 46 years.
When I first started attending a church, the pastor did an entire sermon attacking me for obeying 1 Corinthians chapter 11 and wearing the head covering. I was the only woman who wore a hat or scarf in the congregation. I have been attacked by leadership for simply standing on the Bible and no man's teaching. Also for writing the book "Cliques in the Church." Leadership will say, cliques are natural when cliques are condemned in the Scriptures. We are called to associate with the lowly.
I had a sermon done on me when I left a Penticostal church. I have also been ignored for leaving another church. It's shocking the way Christians treat one another 😢
@jameskennedy721 There is no long wait, it is more of a burial day, and those who leave are regarded as non-existence the moment you step out of their building. That is it.
But how do you know you are not in the flesh when you are "discerning"? Everything goes back to knowing what God says. None of the gifts of the Spirit work independently of familiarity with God's Word.
@@bellyfulochelly4222 It is also apparent they do not work exclusively therein without His Spirit for many capable men and women have studied scripture and learnt biblical languages only to disobey God all the more. Something other than the wisdom and cunning of men is required for access to His Spirit is never granted by the qualifications grant by men.
Feeling you aren't as skilled as them at handling and interpreting the Scriptures can be part of the pulpiteer's game of shame and superiority. Of course they can handle Scriptures more adeptly and know them more thoroughly, it's their job and they've got degrees etc in it - and so had the Pharisees in Jesus time. Humility in love is the point and not cultivated winning superiority. It's not for nothing the Scribes and Pharisees got Jesus's ire and disapproval. Theirs was a dangerous and toxic control and it's adherents are still here amongst us today. All people sin and religious people sin religiously. Not so with Jesus.
Thank you Teasi and Alisa for sharing these things with such continued commitment to Christ and the Church. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and suffering in such a healing way for others who go through the same pain. :)
I wish I had this type of resource as I was dealing with spiritual abuse. The gaslighting is real! The one Scripture that was used excessively was 1 Chronicles 16:22 (Touch not my anointed). It was such a nightmare. When I left the church I grew up in, I was talked about as if I was causing division (Romans 16:17). I was shunned, people avoided me in public, refused to acknowledge me in any aspect (text, social media, etc), and they blocked me on social media. I look back and I see that I was actually in a cult and was able to break free. Praise the Lord I am an overcomer! I pray that I can be asset to others who have been a victim and are broken. Thank you so much for taken the time to address this difficult topic.
I was reading our children's Bible to my girls the other night and it said that the epistles taught the church not to be tricked and my daughter asked me why people would want to trick the church. I talked to her about how some people become pastors because they want power and money and we talked about some examples of that. She asked me how she would know if she was being tricked and I told her that she probably wouldn't at first. But I told her that every day when she comes home from school I ask her a series of questions (did anything good happen today? anything sad? scary?) and I always ask if anything strange happened. I told her that I ask her that question because sometimes when we're being tricked, the first clue is that something feels strange. So if something feels strange, she can tell me about it and my husband and I can help her figure out if it was just something innocently strange or if someone was trying to trick her. I told her that as she gets older, that she can always come to us, but she'll have godly friends by then that she can talk to, too. I love how you talked about that, to pay attention when something feels off, to search your heart, the Scriptures, and wise counsel to seek truth. Thank you!
I wish I'd had you as my mother 😢 I wasn't taught any of this and it led to a lot of pain, including marrying a covert narcissist and completely ignoring some big red flags. God rescued me in a miraculous way and I am in awe of God now every single day!!
What we met in churches are all about preachers and leaders telling us their stories, not Jesus' mission on this earth. More about how gifted they are, how much God favours them instead of Jesus and his mission.
One of the best suggestions from Teasi was to turn off everything and go back to reading the Gospels and the Acts to immerse ourselves in the character and teaching and examples of Christ and His immediate disciplies/apostles. That is the template.
"We elevate talent and skills over character". Ma'am, you rightly made that statement. The world does these things but saddened to say that it happens in church as well. God bless both of you. ✝️
I hate the " bully pulpit". That is the worst form of passive aggressive behaviour. It shows that the pastor lacks emotional maturity. If a person has an issue to address with me personally, why take away from the preaching of God's word to tear a particular person down from the pulpit. It's sad
@@sanjeevgig8918 And those people were alive at the time of it being written down. Had Paul been lying, people could have easily verified his claims. Just because they didn’t have computers doesn’t mean they didn’t have records. What’s your deal, btw? Are you trying to deconvert people?
@@sanjeevgig8918 And yet neither Peter, John, nor some of the other apostles were dead by that time. Even if all 500 people had died, that claim would still have been easily put to the test. You also didn’t answer my question.
I have seen that bully pulpit used so many times in the churches I used to attend. I could tell by the sermon title and the "illustration" used, who was being talked about after they left or maybe said something that was considered dishonorable. Honour is a word thrown around a lot... Which basically means NEVER QUESTION AND GIVE LOTS OF MONEY!
Wow. Just reading this comment brought up a couple of sermons that I’ve sat through at a previous church I attended and now I can see as most likely abusive. Ooof! I remember when the pastor would preach on giving, there was usually an illustration showing how little people gave to their local churches while at the same time they would say, “we are still doing good financially, we don’t have any debt and are in a good position.” Making it sound like they didn’t really need my money, while making me feel guilty for not giving enough to the church. This guy was a financial guru and loved stats, but man your comment made me rethink about these sermons. There were other red flags that our family didn’t like and helped us make our decision to leave. They also didn’t preach those sermons too often, but still. Not cool.
@@katywolffis7678 oh I hear you!!! By God's grace I'll do a video soon on my channel to talk about the "style" bullying I have seen in the churches I used to attend. When you mentioned those teachings on giving, it reminded me of a pastor I used to respect for his humble and respectful demeanor. But then he'd get up and during the preaching talk about some lady who would give to his family lots of foodstuff then say "when you see good things in people's life, there is a reason..." referring to the need to give to him so as to be blessed. It was so manipulative!!!
That must be the norm of pulpit preachers who pulpit shame their concregation and preach about those who have left or are soon to leave without using their actual names.
@thetruthseekingchristian787 and perhaps also, 'do as you are told because I am a Bible teacher and I am therefore always right and if you disagree with my approach and my ideas and demands you are disagreeing with infallible Scripture. ' That's narcissistic arrogance and lack of love and empathy.
It's especially painful 😫 when your husband can't see that the pastor is abusive to women. After 40 years, my husbands eyes have been opened. We are finally in a church where we are growing together ❤.
I think that is fairly common. Women tend to be more sensitive to subtle manipulations and creepy characters than men are. I'm glad you are finally both on the same page.
Leaving a church where women are abused was a very good decision to make. In our marriage, I took my wife away from a church where men were abused. It's good when you finally find a biblical church, and not an abusive one when you can grow. Jah bless!
At the age of 65, with a 40 year journey with Jesus, through many churches over the decades, my wife and I have come to the conclusion that in North America the majority of believers are 'passive' in their day to day living and their faith walk. Most are sincere in their beliefs but because life is hard (and getting harder) they are unsure of what God is trying to tell them. This, unfortunately, leaves a huge faith vacuum in people lives and they begin attending churches where a pastor who is decisive, strong and exudes the kind of faith they want. They allow him to tell them what to do, what to believe, where to serve, how to evangelize etc etc. Finally, I find it extremely interesting that with the resurgence of Reformed and Calvinism in the passed decades we are now, years later, starting to see and hear more and more heartbreaking stories of 'deconstructionism' and more stories of spiritually abusive pastors and churches. Could there be a correlation between the two? I believe there is a huge one that, so far no one has wanted to talk about. Sad. We are now praying about leaving, yet another church, because a very young pastor is more concerned about his livestream than the people sitting in the chairs in front of him. We knew going in that he was very young, inexperienced but a gifted preacher, so we gave him some time to mature and grow in humility. I met with him once a month or so during his first year and realized after trying to slowly encourage him to be more sensitive to the community needs (mostly older saints). But by his constant redirection of my suggestions to his plan, his desires etc, I realized he is not interested in hearing from an old man (who survived cancer, three suicides in my family, three car wrecks that killed my mother in-law, just so you know I am well acquainted with suffering) To add insult to injury, he actually started correcting me in my own ministry to a few men overcoming porn addictions and my guitar playing when leading worship. I've come to realize that this young man will have to go through the Refiners fire on his own. We will be leaving soon and we are truly heartbroken over it, but we will follow where He leads because He promises to never leave us or forsake us, and He has the best track record with us.
I just came out of a spiritually abusive Church. All this is going on there. This discussion is so good. These Pastors are building their own kingdoms not God's. Judgment begins in The House of God... it is coming!
One thing for sure, a true man of God will honor and hold in high regard the scriptures. Not stories, not opinions, not feelings, but the unrelenting truth of God's Word!!
Thank you for this program. My family were the victims of serious spiritual abuse in a church we attended for 12 years. It took me 10 years to get over it. We were shunned by the entire church because we disagreed with the pastor and his wife about who was the authority over our children. Church members would see me in a grocery store and walk by me without saying a word. No one called to ask our side of the matter. It all came down to spiritually manipulating people to believe that anyone who disagrees with the pastor or his family is dangerous and other should stay far from us. The verse that spirtual abusers use is Psalm 105:15 "Do not touch my anointed". I praise God he allowed me to go through this because he taught me to cling to him no matter what happens in my life. Everything you recounted from your own experience I also experienced. I have forgiven my former pastor but reconciliation requires two willing participants and only one of us is willing. This Pastoral cult of personality in the body of Christ has got to stop, it is leading to idolatry.
When you talked about the bloody sheep at 40:00 mark I teared up. Spiritual abuse is the worst pain someone can experience, but to be ostracized afterwards hurts even worse.
I was in a toxic church environment where the pastor used to scream at the people volunteering at ministry events. It must've been the Holy Spirit because I told him right there that we were in God's house and that he could easily be removed as the leader if he continued to treat God's people the way he was treating us. No cuss words came out. It felt like righteous indignation because after I said what I said, I walked away and immediately had a conversation with Abba. God gave me the gift of rejection from a very early age (7) so, it makes it easier for me to walk in the boldness of Holy Spirit. I say something...
Yesterday as I was walking down the hallway I overheard my good friend the church secretary asking one of the elders to open the tithe box before he left so she didn't have to do it alone. That accountability really reassures me that I'm in a good church.
Wonderful discussion. Perhaps something that also needs to be said is for people who attend churches not to be flying monkeys for the spiritual abusive leaders. This involves simple things like not spying or reporting or divulging confidential information without permission on fellow believers to leaders, not carrying messages for others but telling them to deal with the people they're "concerned about" in person and preferably face to face, living in truth, treating others like adults and not infantilizing them and recognizing counterfeit love and love bombing for what it is and so on. Spiritually abusive leaders lose their flying monkeys when the flying monkeys grow up and gain an adult conscience and walk before God.
I used to do the pastor's 'Spy Work'. But I too grew up & stopped it. Can't stand how pastors use others like that. I think it's a sign of immaturity in a leader to use people like this. One pastor even asked me if I knew if an engaged couple were involved with sexual "intimacies"! As if I'd know! Stupid & v inappropriate thing to ask! No wisdom! Reminds me of former Eastern Germany where the Stasi Secret Police used neighbors etc to spy on each other! Be savvy, discerning, trust few, keep your own counsel. And leave. No one needs a 'pastor' or a 'church' like that.
These are the passages that really opened my eyes as well to realize that the “pastor” of our former church was totally UNqualified to lead! “It must NOT just be one guy calling and running the shots (which creates a cultic kind of environment)!” - Alisa Childers 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
He’s the pastor, his wife leads the women’s and children’s ministry and his son is the worship leader. And if you don’t follow the rules you will be asked to step down or given ultimatums. Decisions were made to “benefit” us without any conversation on what was really needed.
@@beautifulyarn Yeeessss! And then have this negative condemning (guilt-tripping) air of condescension where it turns people to want to seek approval from the “high almighty all-wise” church leadership like as if no other believer has the HOLY SPIRIT and they’re god… Oh my goodness! Did we come from the same church?😅 Are you finally out? GOD freed us in the beginning of the year 2021!🙌🏼✝️🙌🏼
@@indakgalak we are finally starting to go to another church and starting to feel a bit more relaxed but also keeping an eye out for red flags because we have trust issues.
My husband and I are having marital issues. I invited our pastor over to talk. During our talk, I told our Pastor that I have been in therapy for 5 years with a wonderful Christian therapist. He said to me "it's not doing any good". I have been abused by the church in the past and this was the last straw. So I have walked away from the Church. My husband still attends. I just stumbled onto your video. I am now a subscriber! Thank you!
I think there is still a lot of stigma to having therapy...I also had therapy sessions and she was really helpful. I am glad you found a good doctor who's compatible with you. May you be continuously surrounded by loving, caring people 🙏
I felt your comment on the bloody sheep who found each other. I felt that so deeply. After our experience we found (too many) people who needed to heal together from similar experience. For a couple years, that's all we had. And as other sheep have left damaged after us, we have tried to be there to support them (because we didn't want to gossip or fulfil the accusations of being devisive, so we were quiet about things). I also could relate to the "pointed sermons" that were so frustrating to listen to, knowing what was going on.
I was involved with the Shepherding movement in the late 70's, early 80s. As a single Christian woman I believed that by following those in leadership, I was following God & that was my heart's desire. I trusted these men to have my best interest at heart because they were accountable to God for me. They had the qualifications in Timothy. The problem became over the years, that they were just men...and we gave them power. We were taught to honor those whom God honors. I left after 7 yrs. when what they taught began to conflict with the truth I found in scripture. God gave me the grace to see the good that He brought out of that experience. But others, friends from those days, whom I am in touch with are still very angry & bitter over what happened over 40 yrs. ago. I, myself, find I am very cautious about trusting the leadership in a church & tend to weigh everything that is said & done...not always a bad thing in these last days!
Thank God He woke you up!!! Those trusting man made doctrines and following idols will be left behind in the Great tribulation. Also , many "pastors" will be jailed when m arti al law kicks in and the hu nger game s begin....
I trust no one...not even myself. My trust is 100% in God. And I believe that this is a blessing that resulted from the spiritual abuse I experienced. Many spiritually wounded Christians bemoan this loss of trust, but I think that's an absolutely wrong perspective. The Lord has taught us all a very difficult and very critical lesson. Let us be grateful for it.
'Heavy Shepherding' was v common in the UK during the '80's and '90's. Still happening, but maybe not so much in some churches. I too am v wary. Had a lot of experience of pastors not walking in the truth, and doing some v wrong & inappropriate things.
the church is the true believers, it is prudent we select our leadership correctly and hold them accountable but I do not know if a "Pulpit/Platform/Stage/Church Buildings and certifications" are biblical, just practical and the way culture provides ability to conform to it as opposed to the HolySpirit. Do not allow the church organization become an idol.
Thank you for doing this interview. I have suffered spiritual abuse and I am still walking through healing at leaving the new apostolic reformation. It's been lonely , difficult and painful. I can relate to everything especially the pulpit bullying and other members being told not to contact me. I was a member for 15 years and was close to the leaders. I am so thankful for God pulling me out of that.
Sometimes not the pastor himself, but from his wife. My family background was guilty unless I could prove myself innocent. I lived in a place of guilt and always felt weighed in the balance and found wanting - no matter what the reality of the situation might be. Long story, but the Lord has set me free from all that in my current fellowship of believers, and I'm soooo thankful.
Yes, yes, yes! Especially the bit about being afraid to gossip. Or being labeled as contentious for standing up and saying “Hey, wait…this isn’t biblical or healthy…” I’ve spent so many situations sick about things I’m seeing, but also being fearful of who to talk to because of fear of gossiping. I always speak up, but it’s so uncomfortable and many people don’t want the apple cart upset. I’ve been told I’m not being loving or gracious enough to my brothers…not walking in unity, because I don’t always assume good intention.
Leaders need to be held accountable constantly. Not bashing; I'm a preacher. We're no different than anyone else in the congregation. Jesus is the "head of all things concerning the church." Not the pastor. If something "doesn't look like Jesus," we need to confront them immediately. 28:00 Not doing my due diligence as someone who preaches the Word is a lot more serious than losing a job. One of the most humbling things about preaching is sitting with the Holy Spirit in the preparation days of a sermon, applying the message to my own life before I preach it. :) We as preachers have to be looking at ourselves constantly and looking for what's not Christlike. This is basic Christianity in my opinion, but it is SO important. I enjoyed her bit on "what a good sermon is." I share a very similar view. The pulpit is for preaching the word. I'm not there to entertain anyone. I preach the word based on exegesis and sit down. It's not a place for my personal opinions. Christ is the head, not me :)
I so can understand you both. Got out of an abusive legalistic church 6 yrs ago. Still trying to heal. I have prayed and said Lord I forgive them for they don't know what they are doing. It still hurts alot. I don't know if I have fully forgiven them in my heart but I do try. Both my sisters are still there and there has been a division between us. I pray the Lord opens their eyes and ears and not be deceived. I guess everyone has their timing. TY for sharing your experiences. The Lord Bless you & keep you both.
Thank you so, so much and your tender love for the church body. Keep praying. We have recently left our church of 17 yrs.... bc of so many red flags and then clear unbiblical things happening. The almost a year of process of discovering more red flags, praying, learning, finding out so many people have left before us and we had no idea. Has we continued to seek Him we also weeped for what the church used to be. We reached out to leadership. It ended with them not budging and seeing truth and us leaving and shunned. My heart is broken. We have been visiting what seems to be a good church, but I really am struggling. I dont want to visit anywhere, I dont trust any leadership, I have more questions than answers. It's only been 2 months and I am just numb. My heart just aches and I am not sure what to do but wait and pray. It helps to know that I am not alone in this....as sad as that is.
I'm sorry to hear that you are going through this. From experience, I can say that what you are going through is major trauma. It may feel urgent to find another church right away (I felt that way), but you should probably retreat from all that and spend a long time with the Lord before you try to find another church. Let Him heal you and teach you some things first. May the Lord bless you and yours through this. You will come out of it much stronger on the other side as long as you cling to Him with everything you have right now.
@@bellyfulochelly4222 Thank you for that encouragement. So many churches in our area are just not sound. But I am confident in His timing He will lead us to the one He has for us.
Keep Relying On Jesus! I Know It's Tough, I KNOW It's Hard, But BE STILL AND KNOW! He IS GOD! Progress, And Process. It Takes Time. The Best Way To Move Sometimes, Is To Sit Still And To Wait (That Is Still Doing Something; I Heard That For Myself And It Encouraged Me... So, I Think Why Not Share It With You. Its For US). God Bless You, My Brother! May God Be With You In All Your Endeavors.
Check out Alistair Begg for sound, no nonsense Bible teaching on line. Maybe use him as a life line while you look for a body of people to fellowship with and serve your local community. Prayers are with you.
If you only knew the hell we’ve gone through from leaving our church of 6yrs a few months ago. Between red flags of prosperity/word of faith being taught, our daughter being sexually assaulted in a ministry that was supported by our church, losing my mother suddenly and getting zero support, etc. We’ve never felt more alone since leaving and now we know why so many before us have left. It’s so difficult too because we live in a city where the Church of God HQ is located so we are surrounded by false doctrine and high profile pastors that are placed on pedestal’s. Your spiritual abuse series was our family 100%-relieved to know we aren’t alone, but heartbroken and so lonely now. We are trying a new church but have so many walls up and are so cynical it’s hard to even focus where we need to in order to heal. Would certainly appreciate prayers during this difficult time 😢💔
I pray for your healing. Let the Lord heal you, and direct you where you should go. I know it is not easy. But God is able. This experience certainly taught you something. Trust God that it wasn't a wasted time. He knows how to restore the years that the locust ate. Reach out to him in sincerity and brokenness of heart, and tell him exactly how you are feeling. He will put you together. It is not good to operate from a wounded place, it can actually hurt others indirectly because they don't understand the why. All the best to you and your family.
Thank you so much for this. I burst into tears when “bloody sheep” were mentioned. It hurts so badly to be cast out and erased from your church family. It feels like you’re untouchable. And you feel for them because they’re just bloody sheep too. They don’t know what to do. They’re just trying to keep from being banished too.
Thank-you! I agree with everything you say. I myself was in a very abusive situation...a mega church with a very prominent pastor/teacher in my country. It took many years of healing and trying to figure out what happened. I often felt I was questioned by other christians (even family members) when speaking about it, like there was something wrong with me. I am still questioned today...30 years later. No one asked me what really happened or was concerned. It was hard. Many christians and leaders do sweep the problems under the rug instead of addressing the problems that do exist. It's like they are afraid to hear the truth! To accuse the victim instead of the perpertrator is wrong! We need to recognize the abuse otherwise it will happen again and more people are going to get hurt! To be spiritually abused is very serious, because it hurts the core of your very being. I could not pray or read the bible for many years. I believed God had left me. But instead, God demonstraded His love for me supernaturally. He came to me! Does not Gods word say we need to love!? Without love we are nothing! It does not matter how "great" the pastor/leader is...or how "spiritual" this person is, if there is no love - that is a big red flag!! Then maybe you should get out of that situation.
Spoke to me in my hour of need - tears of healing. It is hard to leave an abusive church because it is never everybody - often just a few who are intentionally endorsing abusive behaviors. Forgiveness is 'me' but reconciliation involves both people was so helpful in helping me understand why this type of situation wounds so deeply. Thank you.
Thank you, Alisa! Listening to you two is extremely refreshing. I’m struggling with this… systems are established in churches that are above the teachings of the Bible, and leaders are worshiped and people are being taught to obey them blindly without questions or resistance. It’s scary.
Anyone who claims they can predict the future or do faith healings is probably being followed by some gullible people . The more unusual the claims , the more the public should be wary .
Read the book Return to the first Church by John Fenn. It was not set out to be like this by our Lord and the disciples in the first century it has gotten off track after the first 330 when The emperor Constantine became a christian .
Very good teaching, I think most Christians can relate to some of the topics discussed here. Spiritual abuse is often subtle. If you can't be open in a church environment and respectfully disagree with suspect doctrine then there is a big problem. Pastors are supposed to represent GOD and preach the true gospel without compromise. God is much kinder and loving than the way He is represented by many pastors. The Holy Spirit and the written word of God are always our number one guides. God does not tell us to switch off our brains or suppress our discernment. The truth convicts and leads to repentance, it does not condemn and generate guilt and fear. You don't get people saved and then start bashing them from the pulpit, or try and put them back under the law.
I think the saddest victims are our children. They saw the bullying we their parents were dealing with. We leave the church and not only are we shunned but so too are our children. Our children are grown and have no desire to go to church but at the same time there are no churches worth going to.
@@jameskennedy721 we are not in a position to do so right now. We were doing home church and the disrespect to me and my home was so hurtful. Right now when I need a church the most one is not there. I am fighting cancer and severely immune compromised. So right now I’m thankful for my online friends and ministers I listen to here.
I was at a church I loved for 20 years. I supported the pastor through thick and thin, but very gradually he went from being the best pastor I had ever known, to being more like a cult leader. When I criticised bad decisions, I was told it was because I wasn't thinking straight due to personal stress. After my wife and I left, we could see how wrong and harmful it was.
I just want to thank you so much for doing this interview. And Teasi, I just wept as I heard you relate your painful experience. I can relate oh so well, as your story is so close to being identical with mine. My husband and I experienced the bully pulpit, the gaslighting, the accusation of 'gossip', the angry outbursts from our lead pastor, and our reputations tarnished all because I walked into a ladies bible study to hear the leader teaching an obvious false gospel (similar to the teachings of NAR....'we are gods, we can control the weather, even occult practices such as channeling', etc.), and then going to leadership with my concerns, which were truly based in love and concern for this individual as well as our church. I hope and pray this reaches and comforts those who could currently be suffering in the midst of this kind of situation.
Abusive church leaders (pastors and elders) behave in this way when they have a vested interest in defending what is being raised as a serious concern or question from one not part of the inner circle. Books that teach that congregants are not to question leaders or their direction have legitimized abusive behaviors in the church e.g. Brian Winslade's They want me to be an Elder! What do they do. This book uses Scripture to prohibit a church member from bring ' an accusation' against an elder - the interpretation of said scriptures is twisted to inhibit a church member from even the appearance of such 'disloyalty.
@@TheEllaTB And the way it stands, this pastor can say nothing. My husband and I think the world of him. He is the best preacher we have ever had. And we are in our 60s, and have lived twice in Singapore.
I think it's the culture we create or support, knowingly or unknowingly, and the spirit we are walking in when we're trying to hit the mark. Sometimes we have to sit it out and let Jesus heal our woundedness, because in our woundedness, knowingly or unknowingly we can hurt others.
So interesting that the way the spiritual abuse (and the escape from it) goes down is almost exactly the same in every church. This is through God's grace, so that we can understand and warn each other as brethren in Christ's larger church--just as these two wonderful ladies are doing with this series.
The part I most resonated with was when Teasi says we need to turn off all the other voices and read through the Book of Acts, and the Gospels. How can we know what God wants us to do unless we know His Word?
Wow. So spot on. This is exactly what my family and I went through. With the exception that the preacher actually did go in front of the congregation, twice, and told them not to reach out to us, not to have anything to do with us, not even be “friends” with us on FB. And he had “spies” on FB that would monitor who obeyed and who didn’t . He even called anyone who had a leadership position in to his office and told them personally to not have any communication with us or they would no longer be in leadership of any kind. Just insane.
Disgusting! Spies on FB! I know some Pastors use some church members as spies & informants, but including social media is ridiculous. Reminds me of the Stasi Secret Police! This monitoring of people is awful. And we need to be aware, & know how to handle it. The pastor actively turning people against you is nasty, but I think a lot do this, with varying degrees of severity. But for me it means one thing; if I even visit a church, I'll be on my guard, and will keep my own counsel. I won't divulge any personal information etc, and I will regard some pastors as potential enemies and wolves. If they want my trust they'll have to earn it!
In the book The Insanity of Obedience the author made an interesting point which I think reiterates what you mentioned in regard to qualifications of a biblical leader. He said that we often pick our leaders based on the spiritual gifts (talents) they have instead of the spiritual fruit exhibited in their lives. Satan can duplicate or counterfeit those gifts but he cannot duplicate the fruit of the Spirit. As simple as it is, we often miss that our leaders need to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit just as much if not more than spiritual gifts.
I come into this conversation from a younger perspective. I grew up in church and recently I’ve begun to realize that the church I grew up in was very much like this. Think of all of the clichés from the typical charismatic/Pentecostal church. I remember when people started leaving our church, the pastor would tell the entire congregation that they were out of God’s will now and that no one should have any contact with them anymore. My parents were minsters in that church for years and the pastor would not let anyone do ministry unless they tithed regularly. The pastor was the one who called all the shots and if anyone tried to question or disagree, they were accused of being divisive. It’s crazy to listen to this now because even back then when I was just a 10 year old kid in all of this, I still saw the red flags. Oh and by the way, this was a Hispanic church. So this type of abuse isn’t just limited to one culture. In fact, it can even be worse depending on the culture because that can play into the church culture as well.
Please keep sharing about this topic. There are lots of us out in this world who have experienced this. New converts need to know what a healthy church is supposed to be.
Boy, oh, boy, oh boy!!! This hits home so closely and really nails down the events that happen. Been through this more than once. What do these guys do...take a course in this at pastor's conferences? The similar course of events come down, almost as if there is a playbook on how leaders do these things. The similarities of events are Incredible and actually disturbing. Thank you so much for sharing your accounts.
Honesty and integrity. Holding oneself to a higher standard and looking to model biblical practices and be more like Jesus to truly represent Him with each other, let alone the world around us. What we are called to as Christians is hard, we must be firmly connected to the Jesus to even come close
Really appreciate this. My wife and I came out of a highly spiritually abusive environment, so hearing you discuss this helps us remember that we aren’t crazy. Stuff like this really helps to hear. 😊
Thank you so much for this Video. I left the church i used to attend with c-ptsd, almost suicidal, almost self-harming, almost began to drink and smoke, almost started with bulimia. I had a roommate who always tried to bring me to Jesus. To God be the Glory. Jesui the way, the truth and the life. May his light shine in my and our life. Amen
I'm only a half hour in but this sounds so much like my situation, in almost every way! Breaks my heart that a handful of people (including two women with whom I served and still count as friends) are still at my former church with the same pastor. No plurality of leadership at all. Thank you so much for your vulnerability, Alisa and Teasi, and for allowing me to stop second-guessing my decision to leave after several meetings with the pastor.
Thank you so much for making this video. I've found this really helpful as have been attacked on social media and from the pulpit for leaving an NAR church so this has been quite encouraging and really helpful to understand what has been happening
Ladies, thank you so much for revealing the sin in the church. Having experienced the same treatment, I’m praying for you both, and for God to repair the brokenness in us all. Your transparency has given comfort to a soul that is still healing. Thank you for sharing, and keep doing your good works! 💕🙏💕
Thank yall for your openness and testimony. It has encouraged my heart and helped me grieve what the Lord has called my family and I to leave behind. It hurts badly but we know the suffering HE took for us. I know one day, the Lord will use our testimony to help other hurting hearts, just as HE has used yours. Thank you for being transparent ❤
So well said. The church, pastor and school attached is so damaging. I have a testimony I will share one day, and the proof to go along with it. Thank you for bringing this to light and I’ve learned so much from these two podcasts.
Followed by this video, I would have love to see a video addressing what does a biblically healthy church and staff look like. There are many times people leave the church because of spiritual abuse practices, but then they never return.
"Forgiveness is one person - me". That just opened my eyes. Reconciliation requires two people. Powerful ending comments from Teasi! May God help us to reflect him and not ourselves in all situations.
I love that you went back to the church to ask for forgiveness for participating in that church culture that is not biblical -even when you were just following the leadership there, you acknowledged that you still played a part. I think most of us need to do that at some level.
The worst leaders are given the green light by their followers to behave badly . The more they are allowed to get away with , the worse their appetite grows to abuse others . This is not a church , but a failed group experiment .
This is totally what I am going through currently. My eyes are wide open and my heart breaks because of the disappointment from these leaders that stopped caring and now are being total bullies. Both the pastor and especially his wife. I’m ready to TRUST GOD and His leading to a Holy Ghost filled church and Christ like leaders. ❤
Thank you for this talk. My wife and I were thrown out of a church we helped plant. Between the two of us we ran or helped run several ministries. We loved that church and poured our souls into it. Ultimately we became a threat somehow we were chastised, removed from ministries, bullied from the pulpit, discarded and shunned. My wife was so devastated when she realized we had never been loved, it was fake. She said to me "it feels like we just lost a game of chess we never knew we were playing" and that summed it up perfectly.
Shared my story on The Remnant Radio. That bit about the "Bully Pulpit" hit home. I didn't mention it on the podcast but I remember getting a personal email from my former boss. It didn't have a subject nor any content, only a document of his sermon notes on "how to honor your leaders" and "gossip." Love what you are doing Alisa!
I heard your testimony on Remnant Radio a while back, Michael. Thank you so much for sharing. So many times church staff who are spiritually abused are advised not to speak, especially if they’re church staff who have been let go for speaking up even just PRIVATELY. “You won’t receive severance if you talk to anyone else.” The “hush money” just adds to the abuse and manipulation.
It’s not a pastor’s job to tell the sheep how to honor their shepherd. That job belongs to the Holy Spirit. Michael, your formers pastor is an insecure coward.
There is one other great red flag, and that is when we do not have this mechanism in our church written in 1 Cor. 12; "No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no [h]schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
Good Healing Points... glad your touching on the controlling-abuse, shame culture cycle and false positivity. Including labeling people sharing their hurt as “gossip”. Happy to hear of your advocacy!!! My belief is all churches need Social Workers that are trained to recognize all this and Co-Dependency Control Cultures
Thank you for this Alisa and Teasi, everything you have said is so relatable, which in the body of Christ is sad really, but to hear you be so vulnerable in order to help others is truly a beautiful testament to Jesus and His work in us and His people.
Thanks for the comments All very true and heart warming especially as I have just left a church with a toxic leader and now find that I only look for the true fruits in people a d that is the o ly way forward
So beautifully said. Tears.... From one wounded, imperfect, and healing Christ follower to another, you are not alone. I'm thankful for the ladies for reminding me of this tonight.
What an edifying conversation. Compared to this, we have been grazed by the flames of spiritual abuse, and spared of the full blow, but oh how I hope people will heed the advice and wisdom in this video and be encouraged to stand up for the proper execution of leadership roles in the church! ❤️
I have been through all Of this.. I almost wrote a book! I have so much to talk about. I relate to everything that is said here. Love this!! Glad that i am not alone.. I’ve been through all of what your talking about. Loving these videos😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭spot on!
This talk has brought so many memories and feelings I thought I was over. I’m on my break at work and am feeling so sad. I am grateful that I have strong faith in God that no man can shake no Mayer how much I’ve been hurt.
One major red flag is jealousy. If a pastor is offended because a lay person knows the Bible better than he does, look out! There is very little evil a proud person won't resort to when he is jealous.
We left a church about 4 months ago because pastor told my husband he shouldn’t work on Sundays. Theres other things pastor says we don’t believe or like. I listened to his live video this pass Sunday and he mentioned how “you should put God first on Sunday. We had to deal with people like this in this church recently. If they’re so spiritual, where are they? Why aren’t they in church? “😮 To me, this is bullying people for leaving the church. He tells people how this is the most friendly church in the world! 😮
I am in a independent church where there is no accountability for leadership. The issue I'm seeing is the pastors wife is manipulative and abusive to people so that the preacher can keep his hands clean. Multiple people have tried to address this but are told they are rebellious and backsliding. How do you confront this when the leadership is unapproachable.
First pray. Ask for wisdom and guidance. Sounds to me like the pastor and his wife are fully aware of what they are doing, and have both been manipulating church members for some time in their individual ways. That means they are walking in lies, in spiritual darkness, and that will affect all of you there. There are several issues here, and they're all interlocked and working against you all. Sometimes it can be the wife of a church leader who is the problem. Strong, overbearing personality, who he is probably afraid of Does as she wants, to have a 'quiet life'. But it's rebellion and it's wrong. The pastor should take up his calling as Pastor, instead of letting her do as she wants, letting her have control. And she needs to stop usurping him, and lording it over others. I know a few wives of leaders similar, from independent churches, and it's unlikely they'll change either. I'm not involved with either church. Independent churches don't always have strong enough accountability structures or do this properly. If leadership is unapproachable you're probably wasting your time. They have the control they want, and won't want that to change. Time for a more healthy church?
I think a big red flag is isolation - if your pastor doesn't want you to discuss what happens in your church with anybody but his chosen few or anybody outside your church there is a problem. If critical thinking is discouraged it's a problem.
Church should be a “ safe place” to go. If it becomes unsafe it is time to leave.
Every church building we've ever left (whether we attended for 5+ years or more) meant leaving all of the people behind as well. Not willingly but because there was never an indepth personal relationship with fellow believers. We only did "ministry" things together but not life. It's a very empty setting in my experience. If you're not already family co-worker or friends outside the church, you'll seldom develop strong and lasting relationships with those you meet there. When you leave that church, you'll never hear from them again unless you just run into them around town.
How can you, I, develop these relationships further?
Wow! You just described my church experience for the past twenty years. So very sad!
@@robinkirk1821 Ditto
Exactly my experience 🤞
@@robinkirk1821 how can you and I change this?
Growing up in a legalistic baptist church and attending their school consumed my life as a teenager. When I met my now husband as a 17 year old, I was heavily involved in the school as a cheerleader, sang in a trio and had many friends. My boyfriend was a born again believer from a wonderful family but was from another denomination. I was encouraged to give him up by the pastor while I was at summer church camp. At first I caved but then I realized that this young many was all I had dreamed of/prayed for in a future spouse so I held onto him. I was ostracized, lost many friends, was removed as a cheerleader and replaced in the trio I'd sung in for several years. After graduation, I left that church. Despite the fact that there was a deacon board, the pastor was a domineering person. He preached the true gospel and many came to Christ but life revolved more around following the rules than fostering real relationships. I'm so glad my mother raised me to be strong and think for myself because I've been married to this wonderful man for 46 years.
If the pastor didnt practice what he preached , then it wasnt true . He had just wasted everybody's time .
This is a powerful and encouraging story. Thank you for sharing this!
AMEN
When I first started attending a church, the pastor did an entire sermon attacking me for obeying 1 Corinthians chapter 11 and wearing the head covering. I was the only woman who wore a hat or scarf in the congregation. I have been attacked by leadership for simply standing on the Bible and no man's teaching. Also for writing the book "Cliques in the Church." Leadership will say, cliques are natural when cliques are condemned in the Scriptures. We are called to associate with the lowly.
I had a sermon done on me when I left a Penticostal church. I have also been ignored for leaving another church. It's shocking the way Christians treat one another 😢
They are enjoying mistreating others , but if you expect them to admit that , youre in for a long wait .
and then they have the nerve about the Cults shunning people when they leave a Cult...they do the same thing !
PURE EVIL
'
My Buddhist friends have always been better Christians than my Christian friends.
@jameskennedy721 There is no long wait, it is more of a burial day, and those who leave are regarded as non-existence the moment you step out of their building. That is it.
“You can’t know if it’s false unless you yourself are a student of the word.”
If that were the case, our so called learned leaders wouldn't be making such fundamental mistakes. Surely descernment is a gift or the Spirit?
But how do you know you are not in the flesh when you are "discerning"?
Everything goes back to knowing what God says. None of the gifts of the Spirit work independently of familiarity with God's Word.
@@bellyfulochelly4222 It is also apparent they do not work exclusively therein without His Spirit for many capable men and women have studied scripture and learnt biblical languages only to disobey God all the more. Something other than the wisdom and cunning of men is required for access to His Spirit is never granted by the qualifications grant by men.
Yeah, that's not true. It's "get logic and critical thinking skills" that actually works, not "get better indoctrination."
Feeling you aren't as skilled as them at handling and interpreting the Scriptures can be part of the pulpiteer's game of shame and superiority. Of course they can handle Scriptures more adeptly and know them more thoroughly, it's their job and they've got degrees etc in it - and so had the Pharisees in Jesus time. Humility in love is the point and not cultivated winning superiority.
It's not for nothing the Scribes and Pharisees got Jesus's ire and disapproval. Theirs was a dangerous and toxic control and it's adherents are still here amongst us today. All people sin and religious people sin religiously.
Not so with Jesus.
Thank you Teasi and Alisa for sharing these things with such continued commitment to Christ and the Church. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and suffering in such a healing way for others who go through the same pain. :)
What's your story on leaving ?
I wish I had this type of resource as I was dealing with spiritual abuse. The gaslighting is real! The one Scripture that was used excessively was 1 Chronicles 16:22 (Touch not my anointed). It was such a nightmare. When I left the church I grew up in, I was talked about as if I was causing division (Romans 16:17). I was shunned, people avoided me in public, refused to acknowledge me in any aspect (text, social media, etc), and they blocked me on social media. I look back and I see that I was actually in a cult and was able to break free. Praise the Lord I am an overcomer! I pray that I can be asset to others who have been a victim and are broken. Thank you so much for taken the time to address this difficult topic.
Praise the Lord for freedom! Glad you got out. I survived too sis ❤
I was reading our children's Bible to my girls the other night and it said that the epistles taught the church not to be tricked and my daughter asked me why people would want to trick the church. I talked to her about how some people become pastors because they want power and money and we talked about some examples of that. She asked me how she would know if she was being tricked and I told her that she probably wouldn't at first. But I told her that every day when she comes home from school I ask her a series of questions (did anything good happen today? anything sad? scary?) and I always ask if anything strange happened. I told her that I ask her that question because sometimes when we're being tricked, the first clue is that something feels strange. So if something feels strange, she can tell me about it and my husband and I can help her figure out if it was just something innocently strange or if someone was trying to trick her. I told her that as she gets older, that she can always come to us, but she'll have godly friends by then that she can talk to, too. I love how you talked about that, to pay attention when something feels off, to search your heart, the Scriptures, and wise counsel to seek truth. Thank you!
I teach my children to be discerning now, too.
They need this skill now more than ever.
You and your husband sound like wonderful parents. Your children are blessed! 💙
I wish I'd had you as my mother 😢 I wasn't taught any of this and it led to a lot of pain, including marrying a covert narcissist and completely ignoring some big red flags. God rescued me in a miraculous way and I am in awe of God now every single day!!
I so hear what you are saying!!!
Oh my GOODNESS! Yes. All I want is pure scripture and TRUTH. Have no interest in being entertained in any way. Thank you!
Yup I can be entertained anywhere, but if I give my time to a church, I want it to be about Christ.
What we met in churches are all about preachers and leaders telling us their stories, not Jesus' mission on this earth. More about how gifted they are, how much God favours them instead of Jesus and his mission.
One of the best suggestions from Teasi was to turn off everything and go back to reading the Gospels and the Acts to immerse ourselves in the character and teaching and examples of Christ and His immediate disciplies/apostles.
That is the template.
Amen. You are spot on.
The gift of discernment is available for a reason. We need to ask for it so that we are not deceived. Also, so we do not follow false leaders.
"We elevate talent and skills over character". Ma'am, you rightly made that statement. The world does these things but saddened to say that it happens in church as well.
God bless both of you. ✝️
I hate the " bully pulpit". That is the worst form of passive aggressive behaviour. It shows that the pastor lacks emotional maturity. If a person has an issue to address with me personally, why take away from the preaching of God's word to tear a particular person down from the pulpit. It's sad
Right ✅️
The problem with deception is that people don’t know that they are deceived
When you believe things without evidence, you will be conned easily. lol Paul said "500 people saw the risen jesus" and you believe so. lol
@@sanjeevgig8918
And those people were alive at the time of it being written down. Had Paul been lying, people could have easily verified his claims. Just because they didn’t have computers doesn’t mean they didn’t have records. What’s your deal, btw? Are you trying to deconvert people?
@@Window4503 1 Corinthians was written in 50 AD. Lifespan at that time was 30 years. LOL
@@sanjeevgig8918
And yet neither Peter, John, nor some of the other apostles were dead by that time. Even if all 500 people had died, that claim would still have been easily put to the test.
You also didn’t answer my question.
@@Window4503 That's why Bible scholars have NO IDEA about those 500 people. Are you the Mall Cop here ? LOL
I have seen that bully pulpit used so many times in the churches I used to attend. I could tell by the sermon title and the "illustration" used, who was being talked about after they left or maybe said something that was considered dishonorable. Honour is a word thrown around a lot... Which basically means NEVER QUESTION AND GIVE LOTS OF MONEY!
Wow. Just reading this comment brought up a couple of sermons that I’ve sat through at a previous church I attended and now I can see as most likely abusive. Ooof! I remember when the pastor would preach on giving, there was usually an illustration showing how little people gave to their local churches while at the same time they would say, “we are still doing good financially, we don’t have any debt and are in a good position.” Making it sound like they didn’t really need my money, while making me feel guilty for not giving enough to the church. This guy was a financial guru and loved stats, but man your comment made me rethink about these sermons. There were other red flags that our family didn’t like and helped us make our decision to leave. They also didn’t preach those sermons too often, but still. Not cool.
@@katywolffis7678 oh I hear you!!! By God's grace I'll do a video soon on my channel to talk about the "style" bullying I have seen in the churches I used to attend.
When you mentioned those teachings on giving, it reminded me of a pastor I used to respect for his humble and respectful demeanor. But then he'd get up and during the preaching talk about some lady who would give to his family lots of foodstuff then say "when you see good things in people's life, there is a reason..." referring to the need to give to him so as to be blessed. It was so manipulative!!!
That must be the norm of pulpit preachers who pulpit shame their concregation and preach about those who have left or are soon to leave without using their actual names.
@thetruthseekingchristian787 and perhaps also, 'do as you are told because I am a Bible teacher and I am therefore always right and if you disagree with my approach and my ideas and demands you are disagreeing with infallible Scripture. '
That's narcissistic arrogance and lack of love and empathy.
@winstongoodman3244 ... I suggest you might call it sin, for that's it's name.
It's especially painful 😫 when your husband can't see that the pastor is abusive to women. After 40 years, my husbands eyes have been opened. We are finally in a church where we are growing together ❤.
I think that is fairly common. Women tend to be more sensitive to subtle manipulations and creepy characters than men are. I'm glad you are finally both on the same page.
Yay!!!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Pray for me and my daughters
Leaving a church where women are abused was a very good decision to make. In our marriage, I took my wife away from a church where men were abused. It's good when you finally find a biblical church, and not an abusive one when you can grow.
Jah bless!
At the age of 65, with a 40 year journey with Jesus, through many churches over the decades, my wife and I have come to the conclusion that in North America the majority of believers are 'passive' in their day to day living and their faith walk. Most are sincere in their beliefs but because life is hard (and getting harder) they are unsure of what God is trying to tell them. This, unfortunately, leaves a huge faith vacuum in people lives and they begin attending churches where a pastor who is decisive, strong and exudes the kind of faith they want. They allow him to tell them what to do, what to believe, where to serve, how to evangelize etc etc. Finally, I find it extremely interesting that with the resurgence of Reformed and Calvinism in the passed decades we are now, years later, starting to see and hear more and more heartbreaking stories of 'deconstructionism' and more stories of spiritually abusive pastors and churches. Could there be a correlation between the two? I believe there is a huge one that, so far no one has wanted to talk about. Sad. We are now praying about leaving, yet another church, because a very young pastor is more concerned about his livestream than the people sitting in the chairs in front of him. We knew going in that he was very young, inexperienced but a gifted preacher, so we gave him some time to mature and grow in humility. I met with him once a month or so during his first year and realized after trying to slowly encourage him to be more sensitive to the community needs (mostly older saints). But by his constant redirection of my suggestions to his plan, his desires etc, I realized he is not interested in hearing from an old man (who survived cancer, three suicides in my family, three car wrecks that killed my mother in-law, just so you know I am well acquainted with suffering) To add insult to injury, he actually started correcting me in my own ministry to a few men overcoming porn addictions and my guitar playing when leading worship. I've come to realize that this young man will have to go through the Refiners fire on his own. We will be leaving soon and we are truly heartbroken over it, but we will follow where He leads because He promises to never leave us or forsake us, and He has the best track record with us.
I just came out of a spiritually abusive Church. All this is going on there. This discussion is so good. These Pastors are building their own kingdoms not God's. Judgment begins in The House of God... it is coming!
One thing for sure, a true man of God will honor and hold in high regard the scriptures. Not stories, not opinions, not feelings, but the unrelenting truth of God's Word!!
Thank you for this program. My family were the victims of serious spiritual abuse in a church we attended for 12 years. It took me 10 years to get over it. We were shunned by the entire church because we disagreed with the pastor and his wife about who was the authority over our children. Church members would see me in a grocery store and walk by me without saying a word. No one called to ask our side of the matter. It all came down to spiritually manipulating people to believe that anyone who disagrees with the pastor or his family is dangerous and other should stay far from us. The verse that spirtual abusers use is Psalm 105:15 "Do not touch my anointed". I praise God he allowed me to go through this because he taught me to cling to him no matter what happens in my life. Everything you recounted from your own experience I also experienced. I have forgiven my former pastor but reconciliation requires two willing participants and only one of us is willing. This Pastoral cult of personality in the body of Christ has got to stop, it is leading to idolatry.
Sounds like the church I grew up in. I recently left & then reunited just the other day for a wedding. They pretended like I didn’t exist. Oh well.
Wow everything that you wrote is the same exact thing my family experienced at our previous church of 20 years. We left about 3 years ago.
When you talked about the bloody sheep at 40:00 mark I teared up.
Spiritual abuse is the worst pain someone can experience, but to be ostracized afterwards hurts even worse.
I was in a toxic church environment where the pastor used to scream at the people volunteering at ministry events. It must've been the Holy Spirit because I told him right there that we were in God's house and that he could easily be removed as the leader if he continued to treat God's people the way he was treating us. No cuss words came out. It felt like righteous indignation because after I said what I said, I walked away and immediately had a conversation with Abba. God gave me the gift of rejection from a very early age (7) so, it makes it easier for me to walk in the boldness of Holy Spirit. I say something...
@@sunnyfamily6094 HallaluYahuah! 😄🙌🏾
Yesterday as I was walking down the hallway I overheard my good friend the church secretary asking one of the elders to open the tithe box before he left so she didn't have to do it alone. That accountability really reassures me that I'm in a good church.
Tithe is not for us. We are told to give out of love
Wonderful discussion. Perhaps something that also needs to be said is for people who attend churches not to be flying monkeys for the spiritual abusive leaders. This involves simple things like not spying or reporting or divulging confidential information without permission on fellow believers to leaders, not carrying messages for others but telling them to deal with the people they're "concerned about" in person and preferably face to face, living in truth, treating others like adults and not infantilizing them and recognizing counterfeit love and love bombing for what it is and so on. Spiritually abusive leaders lose their flying monkeys when the flying monkeys grow up and gain an adult conscience and walk before God.
I used to do the pastor's 'Spy Work'. But I too grew up & stopped it. Can't stand how pastors use others like that. I think it's a sign of immaturity in a leader to use people like this. One pastor even asked me if I knew if an engaged couple were involved with sexual "intimacies"! As if I'd know! Stupid & v inappropriate thing to ask! No wisdom! Reminds me of former Eastern Germany where the Stasi Secret Police used neighbors etc to spy on each other! Be savvy, discerning, trust few, keep your own counsel. And leave. No one needs a 'pastor' or a 'church' like that.
These are the passages that really opened my eyes as well to realize that the “pastor” of our former church was totally UNqualified to lead!
“It must NOT just be one guy calling and running the shots (which creates a cultic kind of environment)!” - Alisa Childers 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
He’s the pastor, his wife leads the women’s and children’s ministry and his son is the worship leader. And if you don’t follow the rules you will be asked to step down or given ultimatums. Decisions were made to “benefit” us without any conversation on what was really needed.
@@beautifulyarn Yeeessss! And then have this negative condemning (guilt-tripping) air of condescension where it turns people to want to seek approval from the “high almighty all-wise” church leadership like as if no other believer has the HOLY SPIRIT and they’re god… Oh my goodness! Did we come from the same church?😅 Are you finally out? GOD freed us in the beginning of the year 2021!🙌🏼✝️🙌🏼
@@indakgalak we left in February though we went back a couple of times because I was certain the issue was ours.
@@beautifulyarn Wow! Almost the exact time as us as well… Have you been fully delivered out of it?
@@indakgalak we are finally starting to go to another church and starting to feel a bit more relaxed but also keeping an eye out for red flags because we have trust issues.
My husband and I are having marital issues. I invited our pastor over to talk.
During our talk, I told our Pastor that I have been in therapy for 5 years with a wonderful Christian therapist.
He said to me "it's not doing any good".
I have been abused by the church in the past and this was the last straw. So I have walked away from the Church. My husband still attends.
I just stumbled onto your video. I am now a subscriber! Thank you!
Why 5 years with a therapist? Maybe what you need is a Christian friend...
I think there is still a lot of stigma to having therapy...I also had therapy sessions and she was really helpful. I am glad you found a good doctor who's compatible with you. May you be continuously surrounded by loving, caring people 🙏
Sometimes you have to walk away .
@@wendymtzc maybe She had a lot of issues to process.
I felt your comment on the bloody sheep who found each other. I felt that so deeply. After our experience we found (too many) people who needed to heal together from similar experience. For a couple years, that's all we had. And as other sheep have left damaged after us, we have tried to be there to support them (because we didn't want to gossip or fulfil the accusations of being devisive, so we were quiet about things). I also could relate to the "pointed sermons" that were so frustrating to listen to, knowing what was going on.
Me too! That part I related so much with!
When we know better, we do better. God help us all. We all need His grace and mercy. God bless you both
1. Self-deception
2. Deceiving of others
3. Small compromises
4. Calling evil good
Wow!!
I was involved with the Shepherding movement in the late 70's, early 80s. As a single Christian woman I believed that by following those in leadership, I was following God & that was my heart's desire. I trusted these men to have my best interest at heart because they were accountable to God for me. They had the qualifications in Timothy.
The problem became over the years, that they were just men...and we gave them power. We were taught to honor those whom God honors.
I left after 7 yrs. when what they taught began to conflict with the truth I found in scripture.
God gave me the grace to see the good that He brought out of that experience. But others, friends from those days, whom I am in touch with are still very angry & bitter over what happened over 40 yrs. ago.
I, myself, find I am very cautious about trusting the leadership in a church & tend to weigh everything that is said & done...not always a bad thing in these last days!
Thank God He woke you up!!! Those trusting man made doctrines and following idols will be left behind in the Great tribulation. Also , many "pastors" will be jailed when m arti al law kicks in and the hu nger game s begin....
I trust no one...not even myself.
My trust is 100% in God. And I believe that this is a blessing that resulted from the spiritual abuse I experienced. Many spiritually wounded Christians bemoan this loss of trust, but I think that's an absolutely wrong perspective. The Lord has taught us all a very difficult and very critical lesson. Let us be grateful for it.
God meant good even when men did wrong things and caused harm and sufferings. Your story is very encouraging!
'Heavy Shepherding' was v common in the UK during the '80's and '90's. Still happening, but maybe not so much in some churches. I too am v wary. Had a lot of experience of pastors not walking in the truth, and doing some v wrong & inappropriate things.
Thank you for talking about this. The bully pulpit aspect of spiritual abuse is prevalent and needs to be addressed.
It is scary how similar theses situations are! Even down to accusing people of having a Jezebel spirit.
the church is the true believers, it is prudent we select our leadership correctly and hold them accountable but I do not know if a "Pulpit/Platform/Stage/Church Buildings and certifications" are biblical, just practical and the way culture provides ability to conform to it as opposed to the HolySpirit. Do not allow the church organization become an idol.
Can you do a video together on how you both have healed from all of this? Please, this is happening everywhere.
Thank you for doing this interview. I have suffered spiritual abuse and I am still walking through healing at leaving the new apostolic reformation. It's been lonely , difficult and painful. I can relate to everything especially the pulpit bullying and other members being told not to contact me. I was a member for 15 years and was close to the leaders. I am so thankful for God pulling me out of that.
Keep Pressing On In Jesus, And I Pray He Has Lead You Closer To Him, And To A More Better Church Family! God Bless You!
Been through the same thing. I have recently left my church.
Its a crazy doctrine . The good news is you got out .
You are spot on with your statement " it's about image repair".
Sometimes not the pastor himself, but from his wife. My family background was guilty unless I could prove myself innocent. I lived in a place of guilt and always felt weighed in the balance and found wanting - no matter what the reality of the situation might be. Long story, but the Lord has set me free from all that in my current fellowship of believers, and I'm soooo thankful.
Yes, yes, yes! Especially the bit about being afraid to gossip. Or being labeled as contentious for standing up and saying “Hey, wait…this isn’t biblical or healthy…” I’ve spent so many situations sick about things I’m seeing, but also being fearful of who to talk to because of fear of gossiping. I always speak up, but it’s so uncomfortable and many people don’t want the apple cart upset. I’ve been told I’m not being loving or gracious enough to my brothers…not walking in unity, because I don’t always assume good intention.
Thank you for sharing ladies, I'm going through this right now, if you could pray for me and my family and everyone involved
Leaders need to be held accountable constantly. Not bashing; I'm a preacher. We're no different than anyone else in the congregation. Jesus is the "head of all things concerning the church." Not the pastor. If something "doesn't look like Jesus," we need to confront them immediately. 28:00 Not doing my due diligence as someone who preaches the Word is a lot more serious than losing a job.
One of the most humbling things about preaching is sitting with the Holy Spirit in the preparation days of a sermon, applying the message to my own life before I preach it. :) We as preachers have to be looking at ourselves constantly and looking for what's not Christlike. This is basic Christianity in my opinion, but it is SO important.
I enjoyed her bit on "what a good sermon is." I share a very similar view. The pulpit is for preaching the word. I'm not there to entertain anyone. I preach the word based on exegesis and sit down. It's not a place for my personal opinions. Christ is the head, not me :)
Thank you. So refreshing. God bless you as you journey onward - despite the popular abusive pastor culture.
I so can understand you both. Got out of an abusive legalistic church 6 yrs ago. Still trying to heal. I have prayed and said Lord I forgive them for they don't know what they are doing. It still hurts alot. I don't know if I have fully forgiven them in my heart but I do try. Both my sisters are still there and there has been a division between us. I pray the Lord opens their eyes and ears and not be deceived. I guess everyone has their timing. TY for sharing your experiences. The Lord Bless you & keep you both.
Thank you so, so much and your tender love for the church body. Keep praying. We have recently left our church of 17 yrs.... bc of so many red flags and then clear unbiblical things happening. The almost a year of process of discovering more red flags, praying, learning, finding out so many people have left before us and we had no idea. Has we continued to seek Him we also weeped for what the church used to be. We reached out to leadership. It ended with them not budging and seeing truth and us leaving and shunned. My heart is broken. We have been visiting what seems to be a good church, but I really am struggling. I dont want to visit anywhere, I dont trust any leadership, I have more questions than answers. It's only been 2 months and I am just numb. My heart just aches and I am not sure what to do but wait and pray. It helps to know that I am not alone in this....as sad as that is.
Answers to all your questions = 2 Timothy 3 👀
TH-cam channel “Surviving Narcissism” by Dr Les Carter 👌
I'm sorry to hear that you are going through this. From experience, I can say that what you are going through is major trauma.
It may feel urgent to find another church right away (I felt that way), but you should probably retreat from all that and spend a long time with the Lord before you try to find another church. Let Him heal you and teach you some things first.
May the Lord bless you and yours through this. You will come out of it much stronger on the other side as long as you cling to Him with everything you have right now.
@@bellyfulochelly4222 Thank you for that encouragement. So many churches in our area are just not sound. But I am confident in His timing He will lead us to the one He has for us.
Keep Relying On Jesus! I Know It's Tough, I KNOW It's Hard, But BE STILL AND KNOW! He IS GOD! Progress, And Process. It Takes Time. The Best Way To Move Sometimes, Is To Sit Still And To Wait (That Is Still Doing Something; I Heard That For Myself And It Encouraged Me... So, I Think Why Not Share It With You. Its For US). God Bless You, My Brother! May God Be With You In All Your Endeavors.
Check out Alistair Begg for sound, no nonsense Bible teaching on line. Maybe use him as a life line while you look for a body of people to fellowship with and serve your local community. Prayers are with you.
If you only knew the hell we’ve gone through from leaving our church of 6yrs a few months ago. Between red flags of prosperity/word of faith being taught, our daughter being sexually assaulted in a ministry that was supported by our church, losing my mother suddenly and getting zero support, etc. We’ve never felt more alone since leaving and now we know why so many before us have left. It’s so difficult too because we live in a city where the Church of God HQ is located so we are surrounded by false doctrine and high profile pastors that are placed on pedestal’s. Your spiritual abuse series was our family 100%-relieved to know we aren’t alone, but heartbroken and so lonely now. We are trying a new church but have so many walls up and are so cynical it’s hard to even focus where we need to in order to heal. Would certainly appreciate prayers during this difficult time 😢💔
Community is nice , but you may have to find your own way . Good luck .
I pray for your healing. Let the Lord heal you, and direct you where you should go. I know it is not easy. But God is able. This experience certainly taught you something. Trust God that it wasn't a wasted time. He knows how to restore the years that the locust ate. Reach out to him in sincerity and brokenness of heart, and tell him exactly how you are feeling. He will put you together. It is not good to operate from a wounded place, it can actually hurt others indirectly because they don't understand the why. All the best to you and your family.
I have been the victim of two bully pulpits. Two abusive leaders. Horrific. Everything outlined Ive seen via personal experience.
Thank you so much for this. I burst into tears when “bloody sheep” were mentioned. It hurts so badly to be cast out and erased from your church family. It feels like you’re untouchable. And you feel for them because they’re just bloody sheep too. They don’t know what to do. They’re just trying to keep from being banished too.
Nothing spiritual here . This is whats called a farce .
Thank-you! I agree with everything you say. I myself was in a very abusive situation...a mega church with a very prominent pastor/teacher in my country. It took many years of healing and trying to figure out what happened. I often felt I was questioned by other christians (even family members) when speaking about it, like there was something wrong with me. I am still questioned today...30 years later. No one asked me what really happened or was concerned. It was hard. Many christians and leaders do sweep the problems under the rug instead of addressing the problems that do exist. It's like they are afraid to hear the truth! To accuse the victim instead of the perpertrator is wrong! We need to recognize the abuse otherwise it will happen again and more people are going to get hurt! To be spiritually abused is very serious, because it hurts the core of your very being. I could not pray or read the bible for many years. I believed God had left me. But instead, God demonstraded His love for me supernaturally. He came to me! Does not Gods word say we need to love!? Without love we are nothing! It does not matter how "great" the pastor/leader is...or how "spiritual" this person is, if there is no love - that is a big red flag!! Then maybe you should get out of that situation.
Me too!!! He is our Shepherd. We shall not want. He is enough!!! Just continue to spread truth and love.
Stuttgart?
No Sweden
@judith4641 I was in such a church in Stuttgart.
Spoke to me in my hour of need - tears of healing. It is hard to leave an abusive church because it is never everybody - often just a few who are intentionally endorsing abusive behaviors. Forgiveness is 'me' but reconciliation involves both people was so helpful in helping me understand why this type of situation wounds so deeply. Thank you.
Thank you, Alisa! Listening to you two is extremely refreshing. I’m struggling with this… systems are established in churches that are above the teachings of the Bible, and leaders are worshiped and people are being taught to obey them blindly without questions or resistance. It’s scary.
Anyone who claims they can predict the future or do faith healings is probably being followed by some gullible people . The more unusual the claims , the more the public should be wary .
Read the book Return to the first Church by John Fenn. It was not set out to be like this by our Lord and the disciples in the first century it has gotten off track after the first 330 when The emperor Constantine became a christian .
Very good teaching, I think most Christians can relate to some of the topics discussed here. Spiritual abuse is often subtle. If you can't be open in a church environment and respectfully disagree with suspect doctrine then there is a big problem. Pastors are supposed to represent GOD and preach the true gospel without compromise. God is much kinder and loving than the way He is represented by many pastors. The Holy Spirit and the written word of God are always our number one guides. God does not tell us to switch off our brains or suppress our discernment. The truth convicts and leads to repentance, it does not condemn and generate guilt and fear. You don't get people saved and then start bashing them from the pulpit, or try and put them back under the law.
I think the saddest victims are our children. They saw the bullying we their parents were dealing with. We leave the church and not only are we shunned but so too are our children. Our children are grown and have no desire to go to church but at the same time there are no churches worth going to.
Start your own . If you get a following , try and remember to be generous , not selfish .
@@jameskennedy721 we are not in a position to do so right now. We were doing home church and the disrespect to me and my home was so hurtful. Right now when I need a church the most one is not there. I am fighting cancer and severely immune compromised. So right now I’m thankful for my online friends and ministers I listen to here.
@@lindatesluk2479 I see . Yes , its pretty important to stay home . Good luck with your treatments and online contacts , LT .
I was at a church I loved for 20 years. I supported the pastor through thick and thin, but very gradually he went from being the best pastor I had ever known, to being more like a cult leader. When I criticised bad decisions, I was told it was because I wasn't thinking straight due to personal stress. After my wife and I left, we could see how wrong and harmful it was.
I just want to thank you so much for doing this interview. And Teasi, I just wept as I heard you relate your painful experience. I can relate oh so well, as your story is so close to being identical with mine. My husband and I experienced the bully pulpit, the gaslighting, the accusation of 'gossip', the angry outbursts from our lead pastor, and our reputations tarnished all because I walked into a ladies bible study to hear the leader teaching an obvious false gospel (similar to the teachings of NAR....'we are gods, we can control the weather, even occult practices such as channeling', etc.), and then going to leadership with my concerns, which were truly based in love and concern for this individual as well as our church. I hope and pray this reaches and comforts those who could currently be suffering in the midst of this kind of situation.
Abusive church leaders (pastors and elders) behave in this way when they have a vested interest in defending what is being raised as a serious concern or question from one not part of the inner circle. Books that teach that congregants are not to question leaders or their direction have legitimized abusive behaviors in the church e.g. Brian Winslade's They want me to be an Elder! What do they do. This book uses Scripture to prohibit a church member from bring ' an accusation' against an elder - the interpretation of said scriptures is twisted to inhibit a church member from even the appearance of such 'disloyalty.
As a former pastor I can definitely state that the spiritual abuse in church can go the other way as well.
Thank you. Bully pulpit, indeed!
True, unfortunately I've seen both sides bullying the other
@@TheEllaTB And the way it stands, this pastor can say nothing. My husband and I think the world of him. He is the best preacher we have ever had. And we are in our 60s, and have lived twice in Singapore.
I think it's the culture we create or support, knowingly or unknowingly, and the spirit we are walking in when we're trying to hit the mark. Sometimes we have to sit it out and let Jesus heal our woundedness, because in our woundedness, knowingly or unknowingly we can hurt others.
Yes, of course! The abuse can go both ways. Being a pastor is a very challenging calling.
So interesting that the way the spiritual abuse (and the escape from it) goes down is almost exactly the same in every church.
This is through God's grace, so that we can understand and warn each other as brethren in Christ's larger church--just as these two wonderful ladies are doing with this series.
The part I most resonated with was when Teasi says we need to turn off all the other voices and read through the Book of Acts, and the Gospels. How can we know what God wants us to do unless we know His Word?
Wow. So spot on. This is exactly what my family and I went through. With the exception that the preacher actually did go in front of the congregation, twice, and told them not to reach out to us, not to have anything to do with us, not even be “friends” with us on FB. And he had “spies” on FB that would monitor who obeyed and who didn’t . He even called anyone who had a leadership position in to his office and told them personally to not have any communication with us or they would no longer be in leadership of any kind. Just insane.
Oh my. How heartbreaking.
Now ponder how much money that preacher was given by his flock . Heck , if it hadnt been for his church , he might have had to get a job .
Disgusting! Spies on FB! I know some Pastors use some church members as spies & informants, but including social media is ridiculous. Reminds me of the Stasi Secret Police! This monitoring of people is awful. And we need to be aware, & know how to handle it. The pastor actively turning people against you is nasty, but I think a lot do this, with varying degrees of severity. But for me it means one thing; if I even visit a church, I'll be on my guard, and will keep my own counsel. I won't divulge any personal information etc, and I will regard some pastors as potential enemies and wolves. If they want my trust they'll have to earn it!
In the book The Insanity of Obedience the author made an interesting point which I think reiterates what you mentioned in regard to qualifications of a biblical leader. He said that we often pick our leaders based on the spiritual gifts (talents) they have instead of the spiritual fruit exhibited in their lives. Satan can duplicate or counterfeit those gifts but he cannot duplicate the fruit of the Spirit. As simple as it is, we often miss that our leaders need to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit just as much if not more than spiritual gifts.
Charisma & persona. I said this because most people have never even had a meal or a conversation with their pastor. They don't know them.
Amen!
I come into this conversation from a younger perspective. I grew up in church and recently I’ve begun to realize that the church I grew up in was very much like this. Think of all of the clichés from the typical charismatic/Pentecostal church. I remember when people started leaving our church, the pastor would tell the entire congregation that they were out of God’s will now and that no one should have any contact with them anymore. My parents were minsters in that church for years and the pastor would not let anyone do ministry unless they tithed regularly. The pastor was the one who called all the shots and if anyone tried to question or disagree, they were accused of being divisive. It’s crazy to listen to this now because even back then when I was just a 10 year old kid in all of this, I still saw the red flags.
Oh and by the way, this was a Hispanic church. So this type of abuse isn’t just limited to one culture. In fact, it can even be worse depending on the culture because that can play into the church culture as well.
I just went through the exact same thing
Please keep sharing about this topic. There are lots of us out in this world who have experienced this. New converts need to know what a healthy church is supposed to be.
Boy, oh, boy, oh boy!!! This hits home so closely and really nails down the events that happen. Been through this more than once. What do these guys do...take a course in this at pastor's conferences? The similar course of events come down, almost as if there is a playbook on how leaders do these things. The similarities of events are Incredible and actually disturbing. Thank you so much for sharing your accounts.
Honesty and integrity. Holding oneself to a higher standard and looking to model biblical practices and be more like Jesus to truly represent Him with each other, let alone the world around us.
What we are called to as Christians is hard, we must be firmly connected to the Jesus to even come close
Really appreciate this. My wife and I came out of a highly spiritually abusive environment, so hearing you discuss this helps us remember that we aren’t crazy. Stuff like this really helps to hear. 😊
I had a lot of red flags and I justified so much to keep going. I thank God for opening my eyes
Thank you so much for this Video. I left the church i used to attend with c-ptsd, almost suicidal, almost self-harming, almost began to drink and smoke, almost started with bulimia. I had a roommate who always tried to bring me to Jesus. To God be the Glory. Jesui the way, the truth and the life. May his light shine in my and our life. Amen
I'm only a half hour in but this sounds so much like my situation, in almost every way! Breaks my heart that a handful of people (including two women with whom I served and still count as friends) are still at my former church with the same pastor. No plurality of leadership at all. Thank you so much for your vulnerability, Alisa and Teasi, and for allowing me to stop second-guessing my decision to leave after several meetings with the pastor.
Thank you so much for making this video. I've found this really helpful as have been attacked on social media and from the pulpit for leaving an NAR church so this has been quite encouraging and really helpful to understand what has been happening
The best kind of church to leave .
I love this conversation. Thank you sisters. You two women are very good at speaking and getting your points across
The verbal blows from abusive pastors hurt experienced believers (such as myself) too.
Ladies, thank you so much for revealing the sin in the church. Having experienced the same treatment, I’m praying for you both, and for God to repair the brokenness in us all. Your transparency has given comfort to a soul that is still healing. Thank you for sharing, and keep doing your good works! 💕🙏💕
Thank yall for your openness and testimony. It has encouraged my heart and helped me grieve what the Lord has called my family and I to leave behind. It hurts badly but we know the suffering HE took for us. I know one day, the Lord will use our testimony to help other hurting hearts, just as HE has used yours. Thank you for being transparent ❤
So well said.
The church, pastor and school attached is so damaging. I have a testimony I will share one day, and the proof to go along with it. Thank you for bringing this to light and I’ve learned so much from these two podcasts.
This is so beautiful, so balanced, so so needed. Come Lord Jesus, purify your Church 🙏
Followed by this video, I would have love to see a video addressing what does a biblically healthy church and staff look like. There are many times people leave the church because of spiritual abuse practices, but then they never return.
I would like to know what happens to these churches if/when the abuser leaves.
"Forgiveness is one person - me". That just opened my eyes. Reconciliation requires two people.
Powerful ending comments from Teasi! May God help us to reflect him and not ourselves in all situations.
I love that you went back to the church to ask for forgiveness for participating in that church culture that is not biblical -even when you were just following the leadership there, you acknowledged that you still played a part. I think most of us need to do that at some level.
The worst leaders are given the green light by their followers to behave badly . The more they are allowed to get away with , the worse their appetite grows to abuse others . This is not a church , but a failed group experiment .
This is totally what I am going through currently. My eyes are wide open and my heart breaks because of the disappointment from these leaders that stopped caring and now are being total bullies. Both the pastor and especially his wife. I’m ready to TRUST GOD and His leading to a Holy Ghost filled church and Christ like leaders. ❤
Such a necessary conversation. Thank you.
Thank you for this talk. My wife and I were thrown out of a church we helped plant. Between the two of us we ran or helped run several ministries. We loved that church and poured our souls into it. Ultimately we became a threat somehow we were chastised, removed from ministries, bullied from the pulpit, discarded and shunned. My wife was so devastated when she realized we had never been loved, it was fake. She said to me "it feels like we just lost a game of chess we never knew we were playing" and that summed it up perfectly.
Shared my story on The Remnant Radio. That bit about the "Bully Pulpit" hit home. I didn't mention it on the podcast but I remember getting a personal email from my former boss. It didn't have a subject nor any content, only a document of his sermon notes on "how to honor your leaders" and "gossip." Love what you are doing Alisa!
I heard your testimony on Remnant Radio a while back, Michael. Thank you so much for sharing. So many times church staff who are spiritually abused are advised not to speak, especially if they’re church staff who have been let go for speaking up even just PRIVATELY. “You won’t receive severance if you talk to anyone else.” The “hush money” just adds to the abuse and manipulation.
It’s not a pastor’s job to tell the sheep how to honor their shepherd. That job belongs to the Holy Spirit. Michael, your formers pastor is an insecure coward.
There is one other great red flag, and that is when we do not have this mechanism in our church written in 1 Cor. 12;
"No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no [h]schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
Having the same care and lifting up those who seem to be less honourable at every opportunity.
Good Healing Points... glad your touching on the controlling-abuse, shame culture cycle and false positivity. Including labeling people sharing their hurt as “gossip”.
Happy to hear of your advocacy!!! My belief is all churches need Social Workers that are trained to recognize all this and Co-Dependency Control Cultures
Thank you for this Alisa and Teasi, everything you have said is so relatable, which in the body of Christ is sad really, but to hear you be so vulnerable in order to help others is truly a beautiful testament to Jesus and His work in us and His people.
I’ve been through this and did a series. Sad 😢
We, the people, can hear from God as well as leaders.
Thanks for the comments All very true and heart warming especially as I have just left a church with a toxic leader and now find that I only look for the true fruits in people a d that is the o ly way forward
So beautifully said.
Tears....
From one wounded, imperfect, and healing Christ follower to another, you are not alone.
I'm thankful for the ladies for reminding me of this tonight.
I sent this to my dear friend who just went through this, and is wounded by it...thank you for talking about this.
What an edifying conversation. Compared to this, we have been grazed by the flames of spiritual abuse, and spared of the full blow, but oh how I hope people will heed the advice and wisdom in this video and be encouraged to stand up for the proper execution of leadership roles in the church! ❤️
Great topic and it builds awareness. Thank you both!
I have been through all
Of this.. I almost wrote a book! I have so much to talk about. I relate to everything that is said here. Love this!! Glad that i am not alone.. I’ve been through all of what your talking about. Loving these videos😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭spot on!
Write your book....you may hold a testimony someone needs to hear.
@@cdb2161 Thank you so much for those encouraging words. I will do that with the Lords help. God bless you🙏🏾
The bully pulpit can be in a Bible study too.
This talk has brought so many memories and feelings I thought I was over. I’m on my break at work and am feeling so sad. I am grateful that I have strong faith in God that no man can shake no Mayer how much I’ve been hurt.
Thank you both for this. The genuine neutrality speaks volumes about your character and desire to give truly helpful information.
And another scripture they like to use “ touch not my anointed one”
One major red flag is jealousy. If a pastor is offended because a lay person knows the Bible better than he does, look out! There is very little evil a proud person won't resort to when he is jealous.
We left a church about 4 months ago because pastor told my husband he shouldn’t work on Sundays. Theres other things pastor says we don’t believe or like. I listened to his live video this pass Sunday and he mentioned how “you should put God first on Sunday. We had to deal with people like this in this church recently. If they’re so spiritual, where are they? Why aren’t they in church? “😮
To me, this is bullying people for leaving the church. He tells people how this is the most friendly church in the world! 😮
Narcigesis/Eisegesis, CRT, anything progressive, pride, etc... should be marked & avoided. It must only be the Gospel.
You think like a Pharisee, the guys with the strict letter of the law.
Conservative evangelicals are the worst
@@30cc I’m the worst, actually.
“Narcigesis” is such a clever word for it.
@@WilliamtheWorst wurst
Lack of compassion is one a lot of churches are having issues with that lately and too many pastors that can never be wrong a lot of pride!
You all brought EVERYTHING out. Thank you for being so vocal about it all.
I am in a independent church where there is no accountability for leadership. The issue I'm seeing is the pastors wife is manipulative and abusive to people so that the preacher can keep his hands clean. Multiple people have tried to address this but are told they are rebellious and backsliding. How do you confront this when the leadership is unapproachable.
First pray. Ask for wisdom and guidance. Sounds to me like the pastor and his wife are fully aware of what they are doing, and have both been manipulating church members for some time in their individual ways. That means they are walking in lies, in spiritual darkness, and that will affect all of you there. There are several issues here, and they're all interlocked and working against you all. Sometimes it can be the wife of a church leader who is the problem. Strong, overbearing personality, who he is probably afraid of Does as she wants, to have a 'quiet life'. But it's rebellion and it's wrong. The pastor should take up his calling as Pastor, instead of letting her do as she wants, letting her have control. And she needs to stop usurping him, and lording it over others. I know a few wives of leaders similar, from independent churches, and it's unlikely they'll change either. I'm not involved with either church. Independent churches don't always have strong enough accountability structures or do this properly.
If leadership is unapproachable you're probably wasting your time. They have the control they want, and won't want that to change.
Time for a more healthy church?