1, Glad to see our friends from the USAR CMP comment with a good breakdown. 2, If you are Active and think Civilians/ AR/ NG has no business talking about marksmanship, I would recommend you to review the Camp Perry results for the last decade. 3, Please look up what EIC badges are if you've never heard of it. They are ABSOLUTELY NOT basic qual badges. 4, If it weren't for old guys who loved high power /service rifle matches and who actually knew what they were talking about, I would have never developed a love for iron sight shooting. 5, I love you guys at the USAR, but please stop emailing me. ❤️ xoxo
@@9HoleReviews Great points. We'll tell the Career Counselors to stop hounding you. Of course, if you re-enlist in the USAR we have a slot for you on our Team!
Yeah 🤷♂️. Once it becomes a day to day thing, it pretty much is. We went on patrol, we didn't somehow miraculously die, we came back and ate chow, cleaned weapons and tubes (I was an 11C), did guard if we had too and or burnt poo, conversed with other dudes about randomness, "did your little private time" slept and ate breakfast did it again lol. (Unless you went on an Air Assualt or drove somewhere, did a refit or some shit lol) See, nothing special 🤷♂️lol.
@@9HoleReviews At one of our open to the public service rifle matches we had a guy show up with an mp5...... I thought he did pretty damn good out 200yds.... At 300yds it kinda fell apart, but we all had good time.....
@@donnkelley6823 fun thing is, there are SMG competitions in Sweden with the kpist m/45 (swedish k) where 300m is the longest range... It's considdered a tie breaker range as the shooters has to essentially use instinctive shooting with a ++p 9mm round, single tapping an open bolt full auto only SMG which at that range has the trajectory profile of a howitzer at long range...
"Rather than tell the world that the pinnacle of your shooting career was to sink a round, into a 500 yard target the size of a Jeep" -An Absolute Savage
@@petewood2350 I don't know what kind of Jeeps you were around in the military but the ones we had were reliable as hell especially when you consider what they were put through. We had one in my unit that was a dog, the power was down pretty bad in it but the motor pool Sgt told us "As long as it runs we won't put a new (depot rebuild or whatever) engine in it. So we figured ok, we'll solve that problem, we took one of the spark plugs out of it and dropped the biggest nut we could fit through the hole into the cylinder, then we put it back together and started it and locked out the throttle at a pretty high rev and walked away from it, that thing was making a racket like you wouldn't believe. 45 minutes later when we figured it had to have busted a hole in the top of the piston we went back to it and there it was just purring away quiet as can be, that thing hammered that nut into nothing and spit it out the exhaust, if I didn't see with my own eyes it I'd never have believed it. I got out in 86 when they were replacing the last of the Jeeps with the Humvees and every weekend at Ft Riley they were having auctions on post and selling those things off like crazy, if I wasn't such a short timer I'd love to have gotten one but I didn't want to stay around that place long enough to have to make the necessary upgrades to the braking system among other things to make it street legal, but I always swore that one of those things would go up a telephone pole if you could get the tires to bite.
🎯 You nailed it! I don't ever remember hearing ANY combat MOS guys flaunting their "expert marksmanship qualification" at the bar to score chicks... 🤣 I suppose I could imagine a FOBBIT being offended by this post, but not anyone in the teen-series MOSs. 🤷♂️
Uh, you talking about cannon cockers (13 series) or some of those aviation repair types (15-series) or those ADA folks, or maybe those tank drivers? Yep, can't see any of those teen-series MOS's worrying much about this. Do they even issue those folks anything other than the occasional MOS speciality crew served weapon? Of course I'm leaving out the backbone of the Army, the Eleventeens.
@@TheRealColBosch I was a Tanker without a Tank for about 5 of my 10 years in the Army. Went to Iraq and Afghanistan without tanks. My platoon got issued all of that too, because we didn't have tanks. It sucked, but at least motorpool Mondays were easy only having to PMCS M1151s, MRAPs, and MAT-Vs.
People often don't know what they don't know. What I often tell non-military is people in the military know more about guns than most people, because most people are not gun people and know nothing about guns. The average gun guy, however, knows significantly more about firearms than the average non-gun guy in the military. When I was a young enlisted and then a junior officer I thought the Marine Corps taught me everything about shooting I needed to know. I later after being in some firefights and going to places like Gunsite. That was a lot more to learn.
That's an excellent point. The same applies to police officers. The firearm is just a tool they carry for their job. They aren't all going to be gun guys. Most janitors don't collect mops, and the guy at McDonald's probably doesn't research spatulas on his days off.
and he left out the big cheat, of the black lighthouse of the blind pens make damn near perfect 5.56mm holes in the paper for that same reduced range target ....
Because of fuzzy memory my brother in law once told me "every elk he's ever hunted was shot at over 2000 yards" I feel sorry for all the elk that didn't die if that's true
I worked at a big-box sporting goods store at the gun counter years ago and the closest shot I ever heard anyone admit to taking on big game was probably 500 yards. Meanwhile, I don't think I've ever shot big game past 100 yards and most of the time it was probably half that.
From reading WW2 fighter pilot accounts, it was always “I get as close as I can before I shoot” Interesting how getting in close to an animal isn’t seen as skill worthy of bragging. I’d argue being able to move in close to an animal or set a proper ambush is more impressive and more useful than pure marksmanship. Most predators don’t chase their prey from hundreds of yards away, they stalk them and get in close.
We know the military has once again recently mentioned that they will change their qual standards. The Army laid out a very elaborate plan that I'm curious on whether they can follow through with logistics and not fall back onto the ALT-C solution, and the Marines... best of luck fighting tradition.
**YES WE KNOW THE USMC USES THE SCORING SYSTEM** hits on the paper are 2 points to 5 points depending on where you hit. The 500y portion is scored 10 shots in 10 minutes for 50 points of the 250 points overall. Which means if you only hit white for all the 500y shots, technically you can still make "expert" (220/250) if you do well on the 200-300y portion.
I for one would love to see a return to full distance KD ranges for qualification. Alt-C would only be used as a refresher and not counting towards a rifleman's badge qualification.
Usmc now (as of 2010ish) has a course of fire in "combat gear". Its called table 2 and the scoring gets added to the original qual, I can't remember exactly how much it was worth but I think it was an extra 100 pts, turning the 250 into 350. It was shot with the 2 ipsc targets. It was also comically easy, if you were proficient at tying your shoes you'd shoot 80ish+ on it, almost guaranteeing that you would increase your score ratio and push you closer to the next qual level. Edit: when I was out the door in 2013 to 2014 there was some talk about changing table 1 to be in a sapi carrier or whatever you preferred. I don't know if this moved forward, but rumblings of changes were beginning. Hopefully not, base qual is a bit of an IQ test. People who shoot poorly are usually prime examples of guys/girls who think they know better or simply just don't care. Its unintentionally one of the better metrics for Marines.
What I got out of this is that it's not that different than the school system. When you're a student and you want good results, you study, or failing that, cheat. When you are an administrator (not gonna blame teachers for something they have to enforce but had no part in doing, which tends to be the way for these sorts of standardized testing things) and you want good results, you make the system cheat to show how good your students are. Cool stuff anyways.
None of this is to suggest that the accomplishment of expert qualification or the ability to connect on targets at 500 yards with iron sights is something to scoff at. These are extremely relevant proficiency standards. But to reiterate, everything must be kept in context as we continue to explore the effectiveness and capabilities of the various firearms and cartridges we test on this show. For your convenience, you can just copy and paste these links to respond to anyone with our video (especially useful for influencers who have to respond a million of the same messages along these lines). We look forward to the ensuing energetic conversation. --“Back in the day, we used to hit 500 yard targets with iron sights all day.” -USMC Target size matters: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html SF units don't care about making a 500y hit with iron sights on a jeep-sized target: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html --“I qualified expert in the Army” -US Army This is the size of your target: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html I hope you didn’t mean ALT-C: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html SF units don't care about basic rifle qual: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html --"I could hit 900yard with an SLR/L1A1, 9/10 shots. All day.” -Brit. Army/ Royal Marines BOTR Response: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html --“The M16A1 had low light sights, not two-position (long range) sights” -U.S. Mil Response: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html
People still "cheat" the qual. They just dont shoot at the 300 so they have have back up shots at closer ranges. Edit: We forgot to mention you only need 36/40 hits. Zero excuses for not qualifying expert
I am a retired Navy Seabee (14 years in the active reserve) I also served six years active duty in the fleet. While in the active reserve we used to drill our weekends down at Fort Knox army base. Seabees are required to qualify every year with M16 at 200m open sights. (16" center/=5points 32" ring"4points and so on to1point) In the Navy in order to qualify expert with the rifle, you shot 10 Rounds prone unsupported, 10-rounds sitting, 10 Rounds kneeling , 10 Rounds standing maximum possible score 200 points. You had to shoot a 170 or higher to qualify expert. I would enjoy seeing you shoot a course of fire like that on one of your videos. I enjoy watching your rooftop video series and I can tell that you are very confident in your rifle shooting ability and have done it many times. I am very impressed that you are able to demonstrate the accuracy of the weapon more so than yourself. And I like the fact that you are willing and readily show your Humanity by showing your misses. Keep the videos coming thank you.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane with your discussion about the M16A1. I qualified with it at Parris Island in the fall of 1980 in boot camp (in fact, if I’m not mistaken, the footage you showed looks like the 500 yard target pits at P.I.; if so, they haven’t changed much in 40 years)! You are of course correct about running the front sight up several clicks with the point of the old M193 55 grain ball ammo for 500 yards. Seems like the 200 and 300 yard targets used the battle sight zero peep, and we went to the higher one for 500. We used a “Dope Book” I believe it was called to keep a record of sight adjustments. For a country boy raised on shotguns, 30-30’s and 22 rifles, the A1’s impressed me out to 300 “meters” (or yards, the terms were used interchangeably back then and as a recruit, I wasn’t in a position to argue semantics). Where we started to have trouble was at 500 yards, as wind drift started to play a large part in our rookie efforts. That is not to say that close to a perfect score couldn’t be achieved with the M16A1 and the M193 ammo; several of the range instructors had proven it. I do wonder though if those scores might have been done in better conditions than we sometimes had; for instance, midday heat mirage effects (or mid-November rainstorms when we lay in the mud all day with no rain gear and hypothermia setting in for many of us) meant that even a good shooter might have a bad day. I finally realized that by setting my windage so that the top post “split the difference” on the right side of the target between black and white at 500 yards, I could better hold the rifle steady (otherwise the front sight completely covered the 500 yard target). Not textbook, but for me, it worked; I squeaked by with “Rifle Expert” both times!
This Marine who qualed marksman, sharp shooter and expert fully concurs. I learned how to shoot so MUCH better after I got out and became way more interested in shooting and (all) firearms than I ever was as an 0311 from 06/2000 to 12/2004. I only wish I would have had that mentality, access to off the job training and today's internet back when I was in.
I really love your reviews. Men who finnished mandatory service with Czechoslovak peoples army were bragging they were hitting target at 300m all day. But they forgot to mention they used "MG nest target" which has also size of car (bit lower than your jeep though)..
Yeah, some of them to this day absolutely swear that their issued weapons was an AK-47. Including (back in my high-school days) my former geography teacher.
Army tanker 1984-1985. Qualified Expert with 1911A1 every single time from Officer Basic on. All were pop up targets to fifty yards. Several courses you could shift left or right and knock two near targets down with one shot through left side of near and right side of far, or vis versa. I got lucky I guess by being issued .45s that weren't rattle traps... Now the 105mm and 120mm main gun systems on the tanks I commanded shot like lasers if you and your gunner were in sinc..
Keep doing your show as you are....I for one appreciate it for the "non bias" and "data driven" format. You two and Ian at forgotten weapons are about the only ones I regularly watch. Both channels have the same approach. Change nothing.....two thumbs up
Personally I preferred the Marine Corps hit or miss qualification of the late 90's early 2000's. If you didn't hit black it was a miss. That made good hits at 500 actually an accomplishment as only hits on black counted for score.
Had a LT come take my spot in the pits told me to get chow. Thinking wow such a nice LT. Later come to find out his buddy was shooting the target and made him score a perfect 300...
I'll have you know that not only did I score Expert with my carbine and pistol, I also got the same qualification with the bayonet and hand grenade. So let me tell you all about knives and explosives.
Love this video. And yes, the target was huge for the Corps. The fuzzy memories thing is totally accurate too. For me though, having to qualify with iron sights, no option for optics as they have now gave you a good base fundamental on how to shoot properly. I also think a lot of service bragging and pride is based off of what rifle badge you wore. No one wanted the pizza box in the Corps lol.
Oh I agree, and there's nothing wrong with that. We just get a lot of misleading comments that are hard to put into perspective if you haven't actually done a military qualification. You absolutely will not qual if you don't have the fundamentals.
@@9HoleReviews The USMC at one point...at least in the "old corps" (2000-2004). the scoring system was something like 40-65 for Expert, 35-39 sharpshooter and 25-34 for pizza box. The shooter would get one point per shot if the black target was hit...no points for misses.
@@9HoleReviews Fundamentals are important. I was lucky to have access to a rifle range and shooting fundamentals instruction as a Boy Scout in the 1960s and '70s. When I joined the Marines I had a good start being used to iron sights. I found it interesting when you showed that early M16. While this may qualify as fuzzy memory, i seem to recall that the ones we had in 1975 had some type of either windage or elevation adjustment or both. I remember recording one or both of those in my data book along with weather info. And even though I always qualified expert, then as now, I never thought that somehow endowed me with extraordinary powers. But as a geeky computer programmer, I sure did enjoy giving my buddies a hard time over my 2nd through 7th expert award clasps. Yeah...I was a real badass on the range...hahahaha.😀
@@thrainkross4288 that's Old Corps? I'm not saying I'm in the same league as Chesty Puller or anything, but by that time period I was a few years from retiring from 24 years of active service. Semper Fi, do or die!
Your points are all right on. Knowing the weapon and the performance of the round coming out of that weapon is vitally important in evaluating its capabilities. All to often I’ve seen the exact same weapon be used by two different people provide vastly different results because of the skill levels of the individual shooting it. That’s why I enjoy your videos as you try to remove as much variation or at least note the variations during your shooting. Thanks
Served in the Marines and am now in the Army. stationed at Ft Hood. Joe can’t fool this SFC on a AltC range. We are marking rounds triangle, circle, square after each string of fire.
Great points and explanations from you and Bloke on the range. Glad you do these videos and the practical accuracy tests with rifles and handguns. You're honest about your assessments, and sometimes you feature optics, and suppressors. Your channel keeps the weapons for the most part true to their form as they were meant to be used by the common soldier, or shooter. Thank you for all you do.
Your practical accuracy course seems rather thorough. Thanks for your investment in data, real-world physics, and both human and equipment limitations. We are all better shooters as a result of all your hard work. Thank you.
The 500 is the money maker. Make the right wind call and hit the black within your first 2 shots. Shoot all 10 shots before the wind changes. When the fleet first switched to RCOs, we had a choice between qualifying with RCOs or irons. Most of us stuck with irons until it was forced upon us to qualify with RCOs. I remember being not as confident making windage adjustments (you can't feel the clicks while using a round to turn the turrets with a shooting glove on) at the 300 and 500 with the RCO versus my old irons but still managed to shoot expert. Rifle qual is about understanding the basic fundamentals of marksmanship. Scoring expert is the reward after not dozing off during snap in.
Yep, your right the Alt-C is easy to cheat. But as a retired Sergeant First Class of 25 years, and weapons training officer. I had all my Alt-C coarse legs fired individually, scored and marked with a sharpie before doing the next coarse of fire. At 25 meters this was never a time problem. This also allowed the safeties and range NCO's to gage each soldiers grouping and instruct them as needed. I served from 1976 thru 2001, retired 11 days before 9/11 happened which was really a weird time. So yep my first service rifle was a green anodized M16 (re-stamped) A1 (Harris & Richardson). Up until about 1982 all qualification were from 50 yards to 420 yards on a Know Distance (KD) ranges with impact sensitive pop-ups using half and full size camo-targets that were timed. This was a 4-position coarse: Standing, Kneeling, Prone and Fox-Hole. There were no sandbags provided, or used for support. I must say that sadly marksmanship training and the use of full sized true distance ranges has steadily fallen off due to both budget cuts and lack of emphasis by the leadership and command elements.
Do you think that has anything to do with warfare changing a bit? Lots of things changed post 9/11. I think the military has learned in the 20 years of prolonged conflict that a soldiers ability to engage at 500m is simply not as relevant to the situations were dealing with, and that training soldiers to do so, is out of tradition rather than practicality. Fact of the matter is that outside of a hundred yard or so more damage is done by volumes of machine gun fire, air support, and explosives than rifle fire. Modern doctrine dictates that a soldiers ability to put shots down with speed and accuracy is more important within 25m than it is out to 500m. These qualification tests sure didn't help those guys kicking down doors in Fallujah. And since then I think the military has understood what we learned from those battles is a lot more representative of what challenges modern conflicts pose.
@@FpsGamer43 I was leading soldiers roughly 2004-2008, and I always had NCOs go check targets between rounds. We also were only using paper quals during crunch time, when everyone needed to qual in limited time because we were deploying imminently. Every unit I was in still did extensive time at pop-up ranges. That's gonna be down to unit commanders, tho.
@@Hansengineering Very true about time and commanders. We as NCO's can only push for better training. I believe that Badge qualification should only be on a KD range Bi-annually, while the Alt-C should be for familiarization/refresher training.
@@FpsGamer43 and old adage, everything old is new again. Soldiers will always be engaged both by near, and far ranged enemies. Nothing has changed in that respect over either mine, nor your time of service (and thank you for your service). We as NCO's and leaders can only try and make the training we give as realistic as possible.
"Fuzzys" that is perfect. I am trying to remember the the Air Force "m16a1" that I used to save the lives of my team mates. Who knows how many times it had been to the armory. I remember the 3 prong, the a2 grip, and the sturgeon handgards. It had a Starlight scope and 4 20 rnd mags (each with 5 rnds). The trouble is gard duty in Desert Storm was a long time ago and the details are " fuzzy". Thanks for the great videos.
I'm just glad the Army moved away from using a sling as a shooting support for qualification. I did a few appleseeds last summer with an A4 clone and found that putting tension on the sling the traditional way pulls your point of impact down by a pretty significant amount. I forget how many MOA, but it was enough to really throw things off if you didn't apply the same sling pressure every time.
Qualified with both the A2 and A4 in the USMC; all iron sights. Later I became a PMI. The only time we would adjust the front sight post was during BZO on the 200 yd line. Rear sight adjustment knob would be set at 8/3 - 2. FSP base would be set flush with its housing. 1 click on the FSP at 200 yds was 3 inches rounded up from 2 3/4 inches. Once the FSP was set it was set. Adjustments on the regular course of fire would be done on the rear elevation knob unless you were egregiously away from the 8/3 - 2 setting. Over the years, the FSP's became sloppy in play. The 500 yd line is still a task with iron sights. 10 rounds 10 minutes. Key here is body alignment in prone non supported.
Old U.S.M.C. here. 1985-89. M-16A1, A2. You are correct with the Jeep sized targets. They are big. At 500m They get very small and if you can cover all green/black with the front sight post, it is still some fun shooting. :-) Add a bit of wind and you have a fun day ahead of you. I believe that we were told that the rear peep sights were day/night? Should have discussed the different shooting positions/sling use. Also don't forget "rapid fire. 300m at "dog" target and keeping them in the green/black is actually decent shooting. IMO. Semper Fi
I have taught/trained a lot of people over the years. Out of maybe 1000 total, exactly 2 could manage the standard of "Expert" on a reduced 25 meter target with a scoped 22. One of those was a ringer. The military standard is a measurement/goal of a MINIMUM acceptable level. "Expert" is an opportunity to exceed the standard and feel good.
Our course was an auto reset. Not the easiest thing to do at 17. I remember being quite pleased with myself at the time. Many many victories/defeats later and I'm still pleased.
I always like you guys video compare to other shooter TH-cam channel, no long unnecessary explanations, no bullshit. You guys is the only shooter TH-cam channel that I never fast forward
I'm really liking the introspective (at least to the world of shooting's perspective) vids / bits you guys are doing here lately. Also the humor pops. The intro to the MAS rifle video? Magnifique!
Thanks for video explaining the military rifle qualification process. As you point out, the process is to ensure rifle man knows the basics. To shot as good as you do, a lot more knowledge is needed. I enjoy your videos
@@HillTrekkerSarge I saw one of your comments come through and accidentally deleted it. Feel free to re-post it. I think you should know a bit about my background: I come from an immigrant family and I therefor did not grow up around firearms. Neither did Josh (from Boston). We relied on learning from old guys on the range, and clinging onto their every single word to to discover marksmanship. We had to learn the hard way (over the years) that, "I qualified expert" doesn't mean that they will give you good advice, and often times the opposite. Years later after the military I learned the same, and saw how men would cheat... I get it, it's how some people work, and not all. Then working on USMC pit ranges, I realized what the "I hit 500 yards" meant. (again, not USMC expert, that takes proficiency) Point is, this video is geared towards the guy who's left the military 25 years ago and uses "I shot a target at 500y in the USMC (probably not one who qualified expert)" as a point of credibility to steer young learning minds the wrong way. I said it in the video, Military Qual shower proficiency, but it doesn't tell me that you are the true expert with small arms... a point that some men continue to use to plague those getting into the shooting sports.
While one should proudly wear the expert badge, I have learned through long, painstaking, and humbling process that getting distinguished and then earning the Presidents Hundred in both rifle and pistol are what anyone truly committed to excellence in marksmanship would naturally pursue. Point taken about the size of the jeep for sure! Yes, context matters. Also the use of gucci gear, but I would gladly show all my 1st place trophies from combat matches and several All Army Small Arms Championship. Issue M16A4, irons only, 62 grain M855, standard issue gear., E-silhouette (man sized not jeep) etc. We were blasting from 5 to 500 meter, and I shot against others using ACOG and aimpoint. When the dust settled after 5 days the cumulative result was obvious. I guess I am all for the transfer of fundamentals regardless of the platform (I shoot AK well too and push it to its mechanical limit as you often demonstrated). I came back to my unit with the trophies to show my joes and NCOs that it's the indian, not the arrow. Of course, the ultimate test is at a two-way range. I am confident, however, that if your fundamentals are solid, you can allocate all the mental and physical to other aspects of staying alive.
This reminds me how I was troubled to see that there was no change between the L and the non L aperture when I got my M16A1 as my first range rifle. People were telling me "how are both holes the same size ?". At least the field manual taught me how to use it correctly. I mean more or less because I use metric system.
When I qualified as a young Private we shot out to 400m, the practical range of lethality of the rounds, with our C7's and 3.4x optics at an olympic target the diameter of an average mans torso, 16" iirc. Passing grade was like 19/30, which was chosen because if you only preform the 40% of you maximum capacity under combat stress, four rifleman in the section engaging the same target with 25% hit rates was good enough. We spent far more time learning to shoot burst while on the move at 50/150m targets and engaging multiple moving targets between 75m and 300m than anything else.
I've only got a few clear memories from my time in the Army. I remember this one because I ended up being right. Had I just been that bad a shot, I'm sure I'd have blocked it from memory years ago. According to my wife, that's a thing I do. We shot BRQ on some second-hand range at Fort Polk one year. I didn't qualify on the first two tries. I told the MG that I saw my hits on the 50 meter targets, but they didn't drop. I hit 38 on the third attempt. That's when the MG started paying attention. Turns out that the Saabs on the first few lanes had some known issues and wouldn't always go down when hit, but no one passed that information on when we took over the range. It took me going from double-bolo to expert for him to shut those lanes down. I'd say it's possible that there were issues with the other Saabs on that range too, because I don't think I ever shot expert again. I also only remember passing one PT test. The one in basic training. Post-basic, I got nothing. Maybe I'm blocking out memories of mediocrity. Maybe someone with a freshly sharpened pencil passed the rest of them for me?
For what it's worth I think most of the fuzzy memory stories are honest in the regards that the story teller is actually believing their tale. It's very easy to slowly over time change the details, you round up, inflate the figures slightly to make a point and after a while your memory has "re calibrated" to include the revised details. This explains my fathers ever mutating stories from his youth. I remember when I got home from my first trip to the range where I got to shot a Mauser. I manged to get about a 3 inch group (I almost rounded that down to two inch, and exaggerated it to one) at a hundred meters and was pretty happy with that being the first time I ever shot a rifle, and it was one of the best results of any of us kids at the range that day. Dad just shrugged and said that any group larger than an inch at 200 meters wasn't really that good with a Mauser. Now I know he had won some competitions but it sounded exaggerated even back when I was 12. Some years later it was a one inch group at 300 meters...
Totally agree. I love the old guys with tales, but Josh and I learned to shoot from old guys on the range (our families are not the firearms type). We had to learn the hard way on what advice to take and what not to. I think some of those tales can be told in bar, but as shooters who want to better ourselves, we need to take it with the context.
OK fine, here's my memories and you tell me if they're "fuzzy": I'm a retired Marine. My issue weapon was usually the M16A2, I have seen M16s, M16A1s, and M4s but never fired one. Sometimes I had an M16A2 fitted with an M203 grenade launcher, and once I carried the M249 SAW for about eight months. Later when I became a Staff NCO I was issued the M9 Beretta pistol. We qualified yearly with the M16A2 regardless of the issue weapon. We only touched the front sight adjustment during BZO at what I think was 25 yards, then qualified using strictly the rear sight windage and elevation adjustment knobs. Qualification was from 200, 300, and 500 yards with iron sights, never used an ACOG. You had slow fire and rapid fire at 200 and 300 yards and then slow fire at 500 yards in the prone position using a loop sling. Later they added a "combat fire" section at close range and moving targets. In 24 years of active service I shot Sharpshooter twice, all other times I shot Expert. I also shot Expert with the pistol. I remember loving spending all day the entire week at the range because we used to pull butts to mark the targets for the other shooting relays, before they went to automated targets. At that point it changed from us having to move back to each firing position as the ranges increased, to staying stationary at the same firing position and it was the targets that would pop up at different ranges. Yes, the M16A2 has two different peep sights, one larger than the other. We used the smaller aperture for point targets and the larger one in low light or when doing MOUT training (Military Operations in Urban Terrain- in other words, fighting in buildings). The B-mod target at 500 yards is easy to see and hit, you just center it in the middle of the width of the front sight post and aim center mass. Once you make your calls in the record book when the round goes off, windage and elevation corrections are easy even with shifting winds, so the M16A2 is an excellent rifle for the Marine Corps KD course to 500 yards with iron sights. Later on some of us got some training with STA Platoon shooting the bolt action M40 out to 1000 yards with MilDot reticle scopes and it all translated very easily from one rifle platform to the other. End result is that now I own an accurized M1A in 7.62X51/.308 and a Ruger KP90 pistol in .45 ACP and I'm very happy with both of them. I credit my Marine Corps experience with having provided me with the fundamentals of marksmanship and knowledge of the art of shooting accurately that I will be able to enjoy for the rest of my life. Oorrah!
hey man, thanks for commenting. I hope you understand that I am poking fun of the few devil dogs who like constantly quote their qual records. The caveat to our videos that we constantly talk about is that the fundamentals that the USMC teaches are fantastic, there's no doubt about that. As an company grade army officer, I wish i had a week with the senior non-coms to get our soldiers back on their marksmanship like the marines. So bottom line: fundamentals are good and need to be refreshed constantly, but some marines vets like to remind everyone of their service despite never progressed past the qual phase... decades ago. Unfortunately for the other marines who chose to be silent professionals, those louder ones give them a bad name. P.S. The M16A2 was also my basic training rifle. Honestly a really good iron sight weapon system.
@@9HoleReviews excellent, yes. I was also wondering if I remembered my facts correctly or if my memories somehow readjusted themselves. Thank you for your quick response. I know this video has been out for a while and thought maybe one of the other viewers would see it, I'm surprised and honored that you responded to it,and so soon. Happy shooting!
I scored expert with pop ups and perfect expert with 25yd qual. The 25yd was laughably written. Edit: my old platoon sgt was pres 100. He was the only one on ft Carson with it. Also he held the 7.62x51 m118lr 1000 yard open sights record and was AMU. Coolest dude ever.
Great video. I never dealt with a person that thought they were hot shit due to military qualifications on the range but it pops up in TV/movies ALL THE DAMN TIME. I've never considered myself more than just a decent or adequate shooter and even I've been able to get expert on every single weapon platform I qualified with. Some Alt-c, some popup, etc. Also, after seeing this I am WAAAYY less impressed with my marine buddies that talk up that 500 yard shot.
LOL, you may make fun of it, but I am still really proud of getting on paper with an M-14 at 1000 yards on the range at Quantico. Practical, no, but I didn't believe it even possible... Doing it was an eye opener.
Excellent vid. As someone who’s graduating infantry OSUT in the next 5 days and has also qualified expert, I can assure you that it essentially means nothing. The new qualification is substantially better than the old one you referenced, however. It simulates more realistic shooting conditions with barrier work and relatively short target exposures. It’s a step in the right direction for the Army.
By far the best shots I saw in NATO service were the older reservists. Most of the active duty "Conscripts at that time", couldn't hit crap and a NCO was responsible for zeroing their rifles for them. Germany 1986-89
@@richardsveum8452 Hi. That comment doesn't surprise me at all. Isn't that just called "Living in the modern era??" The good ole days, you actually needed to do things for yourself. Nowadays, everything is handed to you on a platter. It's very sad.
For Switzerland it's a set-distance course of fire: For rifles it's 20 rounds at 300m: 5 rounds onto a 1m diameter bullseye target ("300m Scheibe A" on Google) scored 0-5 (the diameters are 20cm for 5, 40 for 4, 60 for 3, 80 for 2, 100 for 1) 15 rounds onto a 1m diameter camouflaged figure target ("Kombinierte Feldscheibe B" on Google) overlaid with scoring rings, scored 0-4. The 4 is once again 20cm, the 3 is the rest of the figure (45cm wide and 50cm tall), the 2 is 70cm, the 1 is 100cm. To pass you need 42 points out of 85 and three 0-scores at most - for the marksmanship ribbon you need 72/85. For handguns it's 20 rounds at 25m, the target is similar to the B34 handgun target, but it's just the scoring part without the figure and it's 6-10, not 7-10. That's then scaled to 45x76cm. The course of fire is 5 rounds slow fire, then 5 rounds each in 50, 40 and 30 seconds. To pass you need 120 out of 200, again with three 0-scores at most - for the marksmanship ribbon you need 180/200.
Just saw this. I was an SP in the Air Force in the 80’s. I qualified expert with both handgun and rifle. These were old, 60’s M16’s without forward assist. We(SP’s) didn’t shoot 22lr conversions contrary to popular believe. We did shoot very small targets at 25 meters. It was a difficult courses of fire. Everyone had to qualify, but only about 10% got expert. You could really tell us country kids that were brought up deer, pheasant and duck hunting from the city kids that never saw a gun before. The handgun course of fire was kinda a joke. We carried S&W model 15 Combat Masterpiece’s with target sights and triggers. Shit for combat, but one hell of a target pistol. If you had any skill at all you did well.
Well put! I went to Parris Island in 1992 and retired in 2012. So from the M16A2 to the M4. From Iron sights only to ACOG with backup irons, and by the end of my career some guys at M4A?? with no irons at all... In 2003 I took an M9 and an M16A2 to Iraq...And from one type of KD scoring system to another and then back again. I say all that so I can put into perspective how sick I get of guys bragging about shooting at 500 yds with iron sights. On the USMC KD range ( In my opinion) M16A2 Iron sights are much more precise than an ACOG at 500 yds. And like you said. Its a huge target. Plus you get 10 shots in a time limit of 10 min. Im not sure if they still get to use a "loop" sling or not. For a new shooter, or some one that hasnt shot much it sure seems like a big deal, and it sounds cool to say, but it really isnt that hard. 200 and 300 yd line rapid fire is much more difficult. And 200 yd Standing offhand using a hasty sling is harder. 500 yd line is the easiest component of the USMC KD course. Ive been retired for just over 10 years now and have no idea what they do these days. But I hope its something more than just target shooting. I hope they have included some movement and shooting from behind walls our thru windows using cover. On another note I am also sick of older guys talking about how great the M14 was and how the M16 is junk. I get it the XM16 was a failure. But by the M16A1 it was figured out. Great video. Im going to share it on a Marine Corps FB page and see how pissed off I can get the Old timers with this.
Shooting at 25m also severely reduces your ability to spot some of the basic marksmanship skill failures a soldier might have, for example holding the rifle up level. Currently my favorite way to prove my skill level in person is to hit a 2/3 Ipsc silhouette (steel plate, looks to be the same size as the "reduced" featured in this video) at 400m with my SKS. This rifle is as issued no modifications, no refurbishment. Best part is, not on a flat range. I'm shooting across the side of a windy mountain with wind swirling all over. Prone supported on a backpack just on the ungroomed forest ground. hit rate is about 50%. Admittedly not that impressive, but enough to make most of the other people who fancy themselves "experts" ooh and ahh.
How about the Chair Force (USAF)? I shot Expert with the M15 (38), M1911A1, M9, M11, and M16A1/M16A2. I enlisted in 1978, never saw an M16A2 until 1989. Q'd most of the time on a 25m range. Shot the M16, M79/M148/203, M60 on 100m + ranges only twice in 20 years. Sometimes when I was a "grenadier" I was issued a rifle w 4 mags AND an M79 w a sealed canister of ammo for that. I had to lug all of that everywhere I went. ;)
Personally I'm a good shooter with an RK-62. It has some nice iron sights, but past 150-200 meters I wouldn't even bother shooting a mansized target. I've shot an RK-62 at 300 meters at an target about the size that was 1meter by 1 meter, hitting consitantly inside the target. That was in a prone position and unsupported. Doing that on the kneeling position was a bit harder but still manageable. (Sorry for my bad English. English isn't my first language)
Excellent video, most enjoyable! I agree with Mike (BOTR) I have used an SLR for long range shooting and used a S&B 1.5 - 6 x 42 mil-dot scope, the chap who reckoned he used iron sights at 800 yds was fuzzy in the extreme.
My favorite trick for the M9 qual was to completely miss the target completely during off hand unsupported. They only counted the misses that were still on paper.
I figured out the Alt-C Qual cheat as a PFC after the second or third time going through it. I can't think of any time after that that I didn't qualify "expert" with my M4. I can count the number of times qualified on an actual pop-up range on both hands, and the majority of those were in basic training. I'm a better marksman as a civilian than I ever was as a Paratrooper
I just recently found your videos and have been watching them none stop when I have time this was a great video I have a lot of respect for you guys keep up the good work
I used to qualify on a range (cannot remember if it was 150 or 200m) with the SA80 A2. I always hit 100% of my shots. The target was fucking huge, probably 4ft square. I laugh when I think back to how pleased I was at that.
100% qualified expert on an alt-c target by gaming the system just like Henry described… a smart specialist. Also qualified expert on the 300m pop up range.
I'd be interested in this video aswell. I feel I and others get so caught up on how tight of a group of a rifle can shoot, that we loose sight of how much accuracy is even necessary for our desired applications.
Well... specialists tend to be smart about one thing, and one thing only. That's what makes us "special". ;) What complicates things is when a specialist is self-appointed or deludes themselves into thinking they excell in everything else outside their speciality too.
Just like that one guy i saw who claimed that as a contractor in Afghanistan he regularly engaged the enemy effectively with a mark 18 at 1400 meters with no problems.
The only time I saw a target as big as a jeep was at Fort Benning as a means to familiarize new shooters back in the late 90s. My issued rifles could never hit 300m, because when I was in, because they were pretty much pre-9/11 hand-me-downs with worn and abused parts.
Yep I'm US Army trained and yes I shot 40/40 once on the pop up course in 5 years. Always maintained expert level from basic to my last year. We do not cheat we are the US Army. 👍
No wonder a friend of mine came back from posting in US with a marksman badge whilst i was on another posting . I still had to help him pass his APWT . NOW I KNOW
![M16A2 to 500yds: Practical Accuracy ...was Eugene Stoner wrong? [ USMC experiences in Iraq ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sqOiTXmi1QU/mqdefault.jpg)
![M16A2 to 500yds: Practical Accuracy ...was Eugene Stoner wrong? [ USMC experiences in Iraq ]](/img/tr.png)
![🏅FR-F1 sniper to 800yds: Practical Accuracy + GIGN Loyada Hostage Rescue [feat. Forgotten Weapons]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mCp4NIQRBlE/mqdefault.jpg)
![The AK12 - A failure to modernize. [Russia's newest standard rifle]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4cJbOAVDQxQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Great video. We did a breakdown showing these qualification targets next to competition targets:
th-cam.com/video/lwD7-Dzz3RQ/w-d-xo.html
1, Glad to see our friends from the USAR CMP comment with a good breakdown.
2, If you are Active and think Civilians/ AR/ NG has no business talking about marksmanship, I would recommend you to review the Camp Perry results for the last decade.
3, Please look up what EIC badges are if you've never heard of it. They are ABSOLUTELY NOT basic qual badges.
4, If it weren't for old guys who loved high power /service rifle matches and who actually knew what they were talking about, I would have never developed a love for iron sight shooting.
5, I love you guys at the USAR, but please stop emailing me. ❤️ xoxo
@@9HoleReviews Great points. We'll tell the Career Counselors to stop hounding you. Of course, if you re-enlist in the USAR we have a slot for you on our Team!
@@9HoleReviews Thank you for doing this.
"You may notice that my military-based anecdotes are short, infrequent, and boring. That's because they're true." ~Paul Harrell
Exactly
And he's a boring boomer
And he's boring boomer
Yeah 🤷♂️. Once it becomes a day to day thing, it pretty much is. We went on patrol, we didn't somehow miraculously die, we came back and ate chow, cleaned weapons and tubes (I was an 11C), did guard if we had too and or burnt poo, conversed with other dudes about randomness, "did your little private time" slept and ate breakfast did it again lol. (Unless you went on an Air Assualt or drove somewhere, did a refit or some shit lol) See, nothing special 🤷♂️lol.
@@socialmultiverse8286 ok throwaway account
Well now I want to see the Service Rifle course being done with the MP5
Yesss
:) preparing
Well I wanna see a slug gun
Yes!
@@9HoleReviews I love you guys
Henry, you don't understand the severity of the threat a jeep-sized man at 500 yards can pose.
lol I mean there are some jeep sized targets that we shot 84mm munitions against...
@@9HoleReviews Like sasquatch
The black isn't jeep sized. It's the size of a man. The size of the paper is irrelevent.
MP5 DMR Practical Accuracy out to 800 yds confirmed
EXPERT MARKSMAN
@@9HoleReviews Potential jerry miculek crossover?
@@9HoleReviews
At one of our open to the public service rifle matches we had a guy show up with an mp5......
I thought he did pretty damn good out 200yds....
At 300yds it kinda fell apart, but we all had good time.....
@@donnkelley6823 fun thing is, there are SMG competitions in Sweden with the kpist m/45 (swedish k) where 300m is the longest range...
It's considdered a tie breaker range as the shooters has to essentially use instinctive shooting with a ++p 9mm round, single tapping an open bolt full auto only SMG which at that range has the trajectory profile of a howitzer at long range...
9 hole review, where did you place you're eye on the rear sight of the M16a2 rifle to qualify as Expert?
"Rather than tell the world that the pinnacle of your shooting career was to sink a round, into a 500 yard target the size of a Jeep"
-An Absolute Savage
Yep I can see the point in shooting jeeps, probably improve the reliability.
@@petewood2350
I don't know what kind of Jeeps you were around in the military but the ones we had were reliable as hell especially when you consider what they were put through.
We had one in my unit that was a dog, the power was down pretty bad in it but the motor pool Sgt told us "As long as it runs we won't put a new (depot rebuild or whatever) engine in it.
So we figured ok, we'll solve that problem, we took one of the spark plugs out of it and dropped the biggest nut we could fit through the hole into the cylinder, then we put it back together and started it and locked out the throttle at a pretty high rev and walked away from it, that thing was making a racket like you wouldn't believe.
45 minutes later when we figured it had to have busted a hole in the top of the piston we went back to it and there it was just purring away quiet as can be, that thing hammered that nut into nothing and spit it out the exhaust, if I didn't see with my own eyes it I'd never have believed it.
I got out in 86 when they were replacing the last of the Jeeps with the Humvees and every weekend at Ft Riley they were having auctions on post and selling those things off like crazy, if I wasn't such a short timer I'd love to have gotten one but I didn't want to stay around that place long enough to have to make the necessary upgrades to the braking system among other things to make it street legal, but I always swore that one of those things would go up a telephone pole if you could get the tires to bite.
Well that's what I do
the whole 13 minutes of video was just a set up for that one line. xD
@@dukecraig2402 But you can't call the new ones reliable.
🎯 You nailed it! I don't ever remember hearing ANY combat MOS guys flaunting their "expert marksmanship qualification" at the bar to score chicks... 🤣 I suppose I could imagine a FOBBIT being offended by this post, but not anyone in the teen-series MOSs. 🤷♂️
The master has spoken.
Whoa whoa whoa buddy fobbit lives matter 😂😂😂
Uh, you talking about cannon cockers (13 series) or some of those aviation repair types (15-series) or those ADA folks, or maybe those tank drivers? Yep, can't see any of those teen-series MOS's worrying much about this. Do they even issue those folks anything other than the occasional MOS speciality crew served weapon? Of course I'm leaving out the backbone of the Army, the Eleventeens.
@@anvilranch1888 I was a 19K, and I was issued an M4 and M9. My platoon was also issued M249s and M203s, for some damn reason.
@@TheRealColBosch I was a Tanker without a Tank for about 5 of my 10 years in the Army. Went to Iraq and Afghanistan without tanks. My platoon got issued all of that too, because we didn't have tanks. It sucked, but at least motorpool Mondays were easy only having to PMCS M1151s, MRAPs, and MAT-Vs.
I was on a submarine. We had to "qualify" each year with a pistol and shotgun. The qualification was basically that you shot in the right direction.
To increase moral the armed forces will be issuing barn size targets at 800 meters 😂
Shooters from the Marines will be tested from inside. Crayons will be issued afterwards. (I kid! I kid!)
@@truckerallikatuk
In the Army we kept the cleaning kits in the butt stock of our M16's, that's where the Marines kept their crayons.
@@truckerallikatuk Gee sarge what flavor...??? LOL.(JK)
People often don't know what they don't know. What I often tell non-military is people in the military know more about guns than most people, because most people are not gun people and know nothing about guns. The average gun guy, however, knows significantly more about firearms than the average non-gun guy in the military. When I was a young enlisted and then a junior officer I thought the Marine Corps taught me everything about shooting I needed to know. I later after being in some firefights and going to places like Gunsite. That was a lot more to learn.
That's an excellent point. The same applies to police officers. The firearm is just a tool they carry for their job. They aren't all going to be gun guys. Most janitors don't collect mops, and the guy at McDonald's probably doesn't research spatulas on his days off.
Exactly right, heard all sorts of weird stuff in the service. Hahaha
Learn the science behind ballistics and shooting?!
How could you say something so controversial yet so brave?
“You can cheat the system. I’m looking at the Army...”. Priceless! 😅😂
and he left out the big cheat, of the black lighthouse of the blind pens make damn near perfect 5.56mm holes in the paper for that same reduced range target ....
If you ain’t cheatin you ain’t tryin
@@jeffersongraves5295 Isn't that called "adapt and overcome..." LMAO.
Because of fuzzy memory my brother in law once told me "every elk he's ever hunted was shot at over 2000 yards" I feel sorry for all the elk that didn't die if that's true
I worked at a big-box sporting goods store at the gun counter years ago and the closest shot I ever heard anyone admit to taking on big game was probably 500 yards. Meanwhile, I don't think I've ever shot big game past 100 yards and most of the time it was probably half that.
From reading WW2 fighter pilot accounts, it was always “I get as close as I can before I shoot” Interesting how getting in close to an animal isn’t seen as skill worthy of bragging. I’d argue being able to move in close to an animal or set a proper ambush is more impressive and more useful than pure marksmanship. Most predators don’t chase their prey from hundreds of yards away, they stalk them and get in close.
I try to stay under 100 yards to be the most sure of an ethical shot.
Even for "fuzzy memory", that's completely implausible. I'm guessing he meant a much more reasonable (although likely still exaggerated) 2000 *feet.*
@@jic1 or maybe a 2000 feet elk.
We know the military has once again recently mentioned that they will change their qual standards. The Army laid out a very elaborate plan that I'm curious on whether they can follow through with logistics and not fall back onto the ALT-C solution, and the Marines... best of luck fighting tradition.
**YES WE KNOW THE USMC USES THE SCORING SYSTEM** hits on the paper are 2 points to 5 points depending on where you hit. The 500y portion is scored 10 shots in 10 minutes for 50 points of the 250 points overall. Which means if you only hit white for all the 500y shots, technically you can still make "expert" (220/250) if you do well on the 200-300y portion.
I for one would love to see a return to full distance KD ranges for qualification. Alt-C would only be used as a refresher and not counting towards a rifleman's badge qualification.
Usmc now (as of 2010ish) has a course of fire in "combat gear". Its called table 2 and the scoring gets added to the original qual, I can't remember exactly how much it was worth but I think it was an extra 100 pts, turning the 250 into 350. It was shot with the 2 ipsc targets. It was also comically easy, if you were proficient at tying your shoes you'd shoot 80ish+ on it, almost guaranteeing that you would increase your score ratio and push you closer to the next qual level.
Edit: when I was out the door in 2013 to 2014 there was some talk about changing table 1 to be in a sapi carrier or whatever you preferred. I don't know if this moved forward, but rumblings of changes were beginning. Hopefully not, base qual is a bit of an IQ test. People who shoot poorly are usually prime examples of guys/girls who think they know better or simply just don't care. Its unintentionally one of the better metrics for Marines.
Check out the new TC 3-22.40
@@deathfromabove2250 thanks, will do.
What I got out of this is that it's not that different than the school system. When you're a student and you want good results, you study, or failing that, cheat. When you are an administrator (not gonna blame teachers for something they have to enforce but had no part in doing, which tends to be the way for these sorts of standardized testing things) and you want good results, you make the system cheat to show how good your students are.
Cool stuff anyways.
None of this is to suggest that the accomplishment of expert qualification or the ability to connect on targets at 500 yards with iron sights is something to scoff at. These are extremely relevant proficiency standards. But to reiterate, everything must be kept in context as we continue to explore the effectiveness and capabilities of the various firearms and cartridges we test on this show.
For your convenience, you can just copy and paste these links to respond to anyone with our video (especially useful for influencers who have to respond a million of the same messages along these lines). We look forward to the ensuing energetic conversation.
--“Back in the day, we used to hit 500 yard targets with iron sights all day.” -USMC
Target size matters: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html
SF units don't care about making a 500y hit with iron sights on a jeep-sized target: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html
--“I qualified expert in the Army” -US Army
This is the size of your target: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html
I hope you didn’t mean ALT-C: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html
SF units don't care about basic rifle qual: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html
--"I could hit 900yard with an SLR/L1A1, 9/10 shots. All day.” -Brit. Army/ Royal Marines
BOTR Response: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html
--“The M16A1 had low light sights, not two-position (long range) sights” -U.S. Mil
Response: th-cam.com/video/SSaZUEEgRxU/w-d-xo.html
"...not about ego here."
BEST WORDS I COULD HAVE HEARD WITH MY COFFEE. Many thanks! 👍
And well done. 🇺🇸
Absolutely hilarious. I needed a laugh this morning.
Well done Sir...
Wait, so anywhere in the black is a hit? I thought you had to be in the little white circle?
Love this video
People still "cheat" the qual. They just dont shoot at the 300 so they have have back up shots at closer ranges.
Edit: We forgot to mention you only need 36/40 hits. Zero excuses for not qualifying expert
I am a retired Navy Seabee (14 years in the active reserve) I also served six years active duty in the fleet. While in the active reserve we used to drill our weekends down at Fort Knox army base. Seabees are required to qualify every year with M16 at 200m open sights. (16" center/=5points 32" ring"4points and so on to1point) In the Navy in order to qualify expert with the rifle, you shot 10 Rounds prone unsupported, 10-rounds sitting, 10 Rounds kneeling , 10 Rounds standing maximum possible score 200 points. You had to shoot a 170 or higher to qualify expert. I would enjoy seeing you shoot a course of fire like that on one of your videos.
I enjoy watching your rooftop video series and I can tell that you are very confident in your rifle shooting ability and have done it many times. I am very impressed that you are able to demonstrate the accuracy of the weapon more so than yourself. And I like the fact that you are willing and readily show your Humanity by showing your misses. Keep the videos coming thank you.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane with your discussion about the M16A1. I qualified with it at Parris Island in the fall of 1980 in boot camp (in fact, if I’m not mistaken, the footage you showed looks like the 500 yard target pits at P.I.; if so, they haven’t changed much in 40 years)!
You are of course correct about running the front sight up several clicks with the point of the old M193 55 grain ball ammo for 500 yards. Seems like the 200 and 300 yard targets used the battle sight zero peep, and we went to the higher one for 500. We used a “Dope Book” I believe it was called to keep a record of sight adjustments. For a country boy raised on shotguns, 30-30’s and 22 rifles, the A1’s impressed me out to 300 “meters” (or yards, the terms were used interchangeably back then and as a recruit, I wasn’t in a position to argue semantics). Where we started to have trouble was at 500 yards, as wind drift started to play a large part in our rookie efforts.
That is not to say that close to a perfect score couldn’t be achieved with the M16A1 and the M193 ammo; several of the range instructors had proven it. I do wonder though if those scores might have been done in better conditions than we sometimes had; for instance, midday heat mirage effects (or mid-November rainstorms when we lay in the mud all day with no rain gear and hypothermia setting in for many of us) meant that even a good shooter might have a bad day. I finally realized that by setting my windage so that the top post “split the difference” on the right side of the target between black and white at 500 yards, I could better hold the rifle steady (otherwise the front sight completely covered the 500 yard target). Not textbook, but for me, it worked; I squeaked by with “Rifle Expert” both times!
I felt a great disturbance in the force.
As if millions of expert marksmen got butt hurt.
lmao
This Marine who qualed marksman, sharp shooter and expert fully concurs. I learned how to shoot so MUCH better after I got out and became way more interested in shooting and (all) firearms than I ever was as an 0311 from 06/2000 to 12/2004. I only wish I would have had that mentality, access to off the job training and today's internet back when I was in.
Like the APFT, Alt C is not good at telling you how good you are but is remarkable in telling how bad you are.
A very simple yet highly astute observation. 🤙🏼
I really love your reviews. Men who finnished mandatory service with Czechoslovak peoples army were bragging they were hitting target at 300m all day. But they forgot to mention they used "MG nest target" which has also size of car (bit lower than your jeep though)..
Yeah, some of them to this day absolutely swear that their issued weapons was an AK-47. Including (back in my high-school days) my former geography teacher.
@@smolkafilip Yes, that true, some of those former conscripts dont even know vz.58 is not an AK.
@@kibicz And when I contradict them they ignore me because "I wasnt't there so how could I know".
Army tanker 1984-1985. Qualified Expert with 1911A1 every single time from Officer Basic on. All were pop up targets to fifty yards. Several courses you could shift left or right and knock two near targets down with one shot through left side of near and right side of far, or vis versa. I got lucky I guess by being issued .45s that weren't rattle traps...
Now the 105mm and 120mm main gun systems on the tanks I commanded shot like lasers if you and your gunner were in sinc..
FINALLY, someone tells it like it is.
SEMPER FI
5811/5814
USMC(RET)
Keep doing your show as you are....I for one appreciate it for the "non bias" and "data driven" format. You two and Ian at forgotten weapons are about the only ones I regularly watch. Both channels have the same approach. Change nothing.....two thumbs up
Personally I preferred the Marine Corps hit or miss qualification of the late 90's early 2000's. If you didn't hit black it was a miss. That made good hits at 500 actually an accomplishment as only hits on black counted for score.
I remember in basic shooting the top of dirt in front of the pop up to knock more debris into the target knocking down.
Had a LT come take my spot in the pits told me to get chow. Thinking wow such a nice LT. Later come to find out his buddy was shooting the target and made him score a perfect 300...
At least you got to chill and mre
PrObAbLy A cOiNcIdEnCe
I'll have you know that not only did I score Expert with my carbine and pistol, I also got the same qualification with the bayonet and hand grenade. So let me tell you all about knives and explosives.
And now we need to see Henry's accuracy with a bayonet out to 800 yds.
Studies show: guys holding fish in their profile pic have a 99% chance of bragging about their qualification score.
Love this video. And yes, the target was huge for the Corps. The fuzzy memories thing is totally accurate too. For me though, having to qualify with iron sights, no option for optics as they have now gave you a good base fundamental on how to shoot properly. I also think a lot of service bragging and pride is based off of what rifle badge you wore. No one wanted the pizza box in the Corps lol.
Oh I agree, and there's nothing wrong with that. We just get a lot of misleading comments that are hard to put into perspective if you haven't actually done a military qualification. You absolutely will not qual if you don't have the fundamentals.
@@9HoleReviews The USMC at one point...at least in the "old corps" (2000-2004). the scoring system was something like 40-65 for Expert, 35-39 sharpshooter and 25-34 for pizza box. The shooter would get one point per shot if the black target was hit...no points for misses.
@@9HoleReviews Fundamentals are important. I was lucky to have access to a rifle range and shooting fundamentals instruction as a Boy Scout in the 1960s and '70s. When I joined the Marines I had a good start being used to iron sights. I found it interesting when you showed that early M16. While this may qualify as fuzzy memory, i seem to recall that the ones we had in 1975 had some type of either windage or elevation adjustment or both. I remember recording one or both of those in my data book along with weather info. And even though I always qualified expert, then as now, I never thought that somehow endowed me with extraordinary powers. But as a geeky computer programmer, I sure did enjoy giving my buddies a hard time over my 2nd through 7th expert award clasps. Yeah...I was a real badass on the range...hahahaha.😀
Damn straight. And even if you went Unk (unqualified) on qual day and came back and shot Expert on remedial requal day, you still got a pizza box.
@@thrainkross4288 that's Old Corps? I'm not saying I'm in the same league as Chesty Puller or anything, but by that time period I was a few years from retiring from 24 years of active service. Semper Fi, do or die!
Your points are all right on. Knowing the weapon and the performance of the round coming out of that weapon is vitally important in evaluating its capabilities. All to often I’ve seen the exact same weapon be used by two different people provide vastly different results because of the skill levels of the individual shooting it. That’s why I enjoy your videos as you try to remove as much variation or at least note the variations during your shooting. Thanks
That final sentence...priceless!
Served in the Marines and am now in the Army. stationed at Ft Hood. Joe can’t fool this SFC on a AltC range. We are marking rounds triangle, circle, square after each string of fire.
Your lcpl underground time in the usmc has made you a mence to the e4 mafia as a SNCO
You diabolical savage.
Great points and explanations from you and Bloke on the range. Glad you do these videos and the practical accuracy tests with rifles and handguns. You're honest about your assessments, and sometimes you feature optics, and suppressors. Your channel keeps the weapons for the most part true to their form as they were meant to be used by the common soldier, or shooter. Thank you for all you do.
Your practical accuracy course seems rather thorough. Thanks for your investment in data, real-world physics, and both human and equipment limitations. We are all better shooters as a result of all your hard work. Thank you.
I wish I found your channel years ago. Thank you Ian for mentioning this fine channel.
The 500 is the money maker. Make the right wind call and hit the black within your first 2 shots. Shoot all 10 shots before the wind changes.
When the fleet first switched to RCOs, we had a choice between qualifying with RCOs or irons. Most of us stuck with irons until it was forced upon us to qualify with RCOs. I remember being not as confident making windage adjustments (you can't feel the clicks while using a round to turn the turrets with a shooting glove on) at the 300 and 500 with the RCO versus my old irons but still managed to shoot expert.
Rifle qual is about understanding the basic fundamentals of marksmanship. Scoring expert is the reward after not dozing off during snap in.
Best video EVER on this topic. I have been telling people this for years. Let's not even bring up framing the 500 yard target
Yep, your right the Alt-C is easy to cheat. But as a retired Sergeant First Class of 25 years, and weapons training officer. I had all my Alt-C coarse legs fired individually, scored and marked with a sharpie before doing the next coarse of fire. At 25 meters this was never a time problem. This also allowed the safeties and range NCO's to gage each soldiers grouping and instruct them as needed.
I served from 1976 thru 2001, retired 11 days before 9/11 happened which was really a weird time. So yep my first service rifle was a green anodized M16 (re-stamped) A1 (Harris & Richardson).
Up until about 1982 all qualification were from 50 yards to 420 yards on a Know Distance (KD) ranges with impact sensitive pop-ups using half and full size camo-targets that were timed. This was a 4-position coarse: Standing, Kneeling, Prone and Fox-Hole. There were no sandbags provided, or used for support.
I must say that sadly marksmanship training and the use of full sized true distance ranges has steadily fallen off due to both budget cuts and lack of emphasis by the leadership and command elements.
Thanks for not phoning it in.
Do you think that has anything to do with warfare changing a bit? Lots of things changed post 9/11. I think the military has learned in the 20 years of prolonged conflict that a soldiers ability to engage at 500m is simply not as relevant to the situations were dealing with, and that training soldiers to do so, is out of tradition rather than practicality. Fact of the matter is that outside of a hundred yard or so more damage is done by volumes of machine gun fire, air support, and explosives than rifle fire. Modern doctrine dictates that a soldiers ability to put shots down with speed and accuracy is more important within 25m than it is out to 500m. These qualification tests sure didn't help those guys kicking down doors in Fallujah. And since then I think the military has understood what we learned from those battles is a lot more representative of what challenges modern conflicts pose.
@@FpsGamer43 I was leading soldiers roughly 2004-2008, and I always had NCOs go check targets between rounds. We also were only using paper quals during crunch time, when everyone needed to qual in limited time because we were deploying imminently. Every unit I was in still did extensive time at pop-up ranges. That's gonna be down to unit commanders, tho.
@@Hansengineering Very true about time and commanders. We as NCO's can only push for better training. I believe that Badge qualification should only be on a KD range Bi-annually, while the Alt-C should be for familiarization/refresher training.
@@FpsGamer43 and old adage, everything old is new again. Soldiers will always be engaged both by near, and far ranged enemies. Nothing has changed in that respect over either mine, nor your time of service (and thank you for your service). We as NCO's and leaders can only try and make the training we give as realistic as possible.
it proves you can shoot straight while not taking any fire well done.
The jeep makes sense now
"Fuzzys" that is perfect. I am trying to remember the the Air Force "m16a1" that I used to save the lives of my team mates. Who knows how many times it had been to the armory. I remember the 3 prong, the a2 grip, and the sturgeon handgards. It had a Starlight scope and 4 20 rnd mags (each with 5 rnds). The trouble is gard duty in Desert Storm was a long time ago and the details are " fuzzy". Thanks for the great videos.
I'm just glad the Army moved away from using a sling as a shooting support for qualification. I did a few appleseeds last summer with an A4 clone and found that putting tension on the sling the traditional way pulls your point of impact down by a pretty significant amount. I forget how many MOA, but it was enough to really throw things off if you didn't apply the same sling pressure every time.
Qualified with both the A2 and A4 in the USMC; all iron sights. Later I became a PMI. The only time we would adjust the front sight post was during BZO on the 200 yd line. Rear sight adjustment knob would be set at 8/3 - 2. FSP base would be set flush with its housing. 1 click on the FSP at 200 yds was 3 inches rounded up from 2 3/4 inches. Once the FSP was set it was set. Adjustments on the regular course of fire would be done on the rear elevation knob unless you were egregiously away from the 8/3 - 2 setting. Over the years, the FSP's became sloppy in play.
The 500 yd line is still a task with iron sights. 10 rounds 10 minutes. Key here is body alignment in prone non supported.
The hardest part of the Army 25m Qual test is remembering which ones you've shot, and how many times. Let's just say I joined the Army for a reason...
You are better then the rest. This proves it. Very well done. Thank you
Old U.S.M.C. here. 1985-89. M-16A1, A2.
You are correct with the Jeep sized targets. They are big.
At 500m They get very small and if you can cover all green/black with the front sight post, it is still some fun shooting. :-) Add a bit of wind and you have a fun day ahead of you.
I believe that we were told that the rear peep sights were day/night?
Should have discussed the different shooting positions/sling use. Also don't forget "rapid fire. 300m at "dog" target and keeping them in the green/black is actually decent shooting. IMO.
Semper Fi
I love thay you have "ho chi minh" sandals on during the MP5 qual. Thanks for the great content
I have taught/trained a lot of people over the years.
Out of maybe 1000 total, exactly 2 could manage the standard of "Expert" on a reduced 25 meter target with a scoped 22. One of those was a ringer.
The military standard is a measurement/goal of a MINIMUM acceptable level.
"Expert" is an opportunity to exceed the standard and feel good.
Our course was an auto reset. Not the easiest thing to do at 17. I remember being quite pleased with myself at the time. Many many victories/defeats later and I'm still pleased.
Thank you for making these videos. What you do on here is very unique and much needed
Ok 9 hole review is the best thing on the internet so far.
Forgotten Weapons is up there too, if you like history and engineering .
I always like you guys video compare to other shooter TH-cam channel, no long unnecessary explanations, no bullshit. You guys is the only shooter TH-cam channel that I never fast forward
Outstanding video! This should be required viewing for every current and former Marine and Soldier.
I'm really liking the introspective (at least to the world of shooting's perspective) vids / bits you guys are doing here lately. Also the humor pops. The intro to the MAS rifle video? Magnifique!
Henrys face, when he finished saying "size of a Jeep", is pure gold :D
Thanks for video explaining the military rifle qualification process. As you point out, the process is to ensure rifle man knows the basics. To shot as good as you do, a lot more knowledge is needed. I enjoy your videos
Goddamn the snark is tactical, fucking love it, entertaining and informative as always!
That last comment was the most brutal thing I've heard all week. Absolutely legendary!
@@HillTrekkerSarge I saw one of your comments come through and accidentally deleted it. Feel free to re-post it. I think you should know a bit about my background:
I come from an immigrant family and I therefor did not grow up around firearms. Neither did Josh (from Boston). We relied on learning from old guys on the range, and clinging onto their every single word to to discover marksmanship. We had to learn the hard way (over the years) that, "I qualified expert" doesn't mean that they will give you good advice, and often times the opposite. Years later after the military I learned the same, and saw how men would cheat... I get it, it's how some people work, and not all. Then working on USMC pit ranges, I realized what the "I hit 500 yards" meant. (again, not USMC expert, that takes proficiency)
Point is, this video is geared towards the guy who's left the military 25 years ago and uses "I shot a target at 500y in the USMC (probably not one who qualified expert)" as a point of credibility to steer young learning minds the wrong way.
I said it in the video, Military Qual shower proficiency, but it doesn't tell me that you are the true expert with small arms... a point that some men continue to use to plague those getting into the shooting sports.
While one should proudly wear the expert badge, I have learned through long, painstaking, and humbling process that getting distinguished and then earning the Presidents Hundred in both rifle and pistol are what anyone truly committed to excellence in marksmanship would naturally pursue. Point taken about the size of the jeep for sure!
Yes, context matters. Also the use of gucci gear, but I would gladly show all my 1st place trophies from combat matches and several All Army Small Arms Championship. Issue M16A4, irons only, 62 grain M855, standard issue gear., E-silhouette (man sized not jeep) etc. We were blasting from 5 to 500 meter, and I shot against others using ACOG and aimpoint. When the dust settled after 5 days the cumulative result was obvious. I guess I am all for the transfer of fundamentals regardless of the platform (I shoot AK well too and push it to its mechanical limit as you often demonstrated). I came back to my unit with the trophies to show my joes and NCOs that it's the indian, not the arrow.
Of course, the ultimate test is at a two-way range. I am confident, however, that if your fundamentals are solid, you can allocate all the mental and physical to other aspects of staying alive.
This reminds me how I was troubled to see that there was no change between the L and the non L aperture when I got my M16A1 as my first range rifle. People were telling me "how are both holes the same size ?".
At least the field manual taught me how to use it correctly. I mean more or less because I use metric system.
When I qualified as a young Private we shot out to 400m, the practical range of lethality of the rounds, with our C7's and 3.4x optics at an olympic target the diameter of an average mans torso, 16" iirc. Passing grade was like 19/30, which was chosen because if you only preform the 40% of you maximum capacity under combat stress, four rifleman in the section engaging the same target with 25% hit rates was good enough. We spent far more time learning to shoot burst while on the move at 50/150m targets and engaging multiple moving targets between 75m and 300m than anything else.
I've only got a few clear memories from my time in the Army. I remember this one because I ended up being right. Had I just been that bad a shot, I'm sure I'd have blocked it from memory years ago. According to my wife, that's a thing I do.
We shot BRQ on some second-hand range at Fort Polk one year. I didn't qualify on the first two tries. I told the MG that I saw my hits on the 50 meter targets, but they didn't drop. I hit 38 on the third attempt. That's when the MG started paying attention. Turns out that the Saabs on the first few lanes had some known issues and wouldn't always go down when hit, but no one passed that information on when we took over the range. It took me going from double-bolo to expert for him to shut those lanes down. I'd say it's possible that there were issues with the other Saabs on that range too, because I don't think I ever shot expert again.
I also only remember passing one PT test. The one in basic training. Post-basic, I got nothing. Maybe I'm blocking out memories of mediocrity. Maybe someone with a freshly sharpened pencil passed the rest of them for me?
What about Expert on the Grenade course? Does that make me Special Forces hahahahaha
Ahhh so no joke I’m pretty bad with grenades. I mean I can judge the time no issue but I always miss the target “bunkers”
For what it's worth I think most of the fuzzy memory stories are honest in the regards that the story teller is actually believing their tale. It's very easy to slowly over time change the details, you round up, inflate the figures slightly to make a point and after a while your memory has "re calibrated" to include the revised details.
This explains my fathers ever mutating stories from his youth. I remember when I got home from my first trip to the range where I got to shot a Mauser. I manged to get about a 3 inch group (I almost rounded that down to two inch, and exaggerated it to one) at a hundred meters and was pretty happy with that being the first time I ever shot a rifle, and it was one of the best results of any of us kids at the range that day. Dad just shrugged and said that any group larger than an inch at 200 meters wasn't really that good with a Mauser. Now I know he had won some competitions but it sounded exaggerated even back when I was 12. Some years later it was a one inch group at 300 meters...
Totally agree. I love the old guys with tales, but Josh and I learned to shoot from old guys on the range (our families are not the firearms type). We had to learn the hard way on what advice to take and what not to. I think some of those tales can be told in bar, but as shooters who want to better ourselves, we need to take it with the context.
OK fine, here's my memories and you tell me if they're "fuzzy":
I'm a retired Marine. My issue weapon was usually the M16A2, I have seen M16s, M16A1s, and M4s but never fired one. Sometimes I had an M16A2 fitted with an M203 grenade launcher, and once I carried the M249 SAW for about eight months. Later when I became a Staff NCO I was issued the M9 Beretta pistol.
We qualified yearly with the M16A2 regardless of the issue weapon. We only touched the front sight adjustment during BZO at what I think was 25 yards, then qualified using strictly the rear sight windage and elevation adjustment knobs.
Qualification was from 200, 300, and 500 yards with iron sights, never used an ACOG. You had slow fire and rapid fire at 200 and 300 yards and then slow fire at 500 yards in the prone position using a loop sling. Later they added a "combat fire" section at close range and moving targets.
In 24 years of active service I shot Sharpshooter twice, all other times I shot Expert. I also shot Expert with the pistol.
I remember loving spending all day the entire week at the range because we used to pull butts to mark the targets for the other shooting relays, before they went to automated targets. At that point it changed from us having to move back to each firing position as the ranges increased, to staying stationary at the same firing position and it was the targets that would pop up at different ranges.
Yes, the M16A2 has two different peep sights, one larger than the other. We used the smaller aperture for point targets and the larger one in low light or when doing MOUT training (Military Operations in Urban Terrain- in other words, fighting in buildings).
The B-mod target at 500 yards is easy to see and hit, you just center it in the middle of the width of the front sight post and aim center mass. Once you make your calls in the record book when the round goes off, windage and elevation corrections are easy even with shifting winds, so the M16A2 is an excellent rifle for the Marine Corps KD course to 500 yards with iron sights. Later on some of us got some training with STA Platoon shooting the bolt action M40 out to 1000 yards with MilDot reticle scopes and it all translated very easily from one rifle platform to the other.
End result is that now I own an accurized M1A in 7.62X51/.308 and a Ruger KP90 pistol in .45 ACP and I'm very happy with both of them. I credit my Marine Corps experience with having provided me with the fundamentals of marksmanship and knowledge of the art of shooting accurately that I will be able to enjoy for the rest of my life. Oorrah!
hey man, thanks for commenting. I hope you understand that I am poking fun of the few devil dogs who like constantly quote their qual records. The caveat to our videos that we constantly talk about is that the fundamentals that the USMC teaches are fantastic, there's no doubt about that. As an company grade army officer, I wish i had a week with the senior non-coms to get our soldiers back on their marksmanship like the marines.
So bottom line: fundamentals are good and need to be refreshed constantly, but some marines vets like to remind everyone of their service despite never progressed past the qual phase... decades ago. Unfortunately for the other marines who chose to be silent professionals, those louder ones give them a bad name.
P.S. The M16A2 was also my basic training rifle. Honestly a really good iron sight weapon system.
@@9HoleReviews excellent, yes. I was also wondering if I remembered my facts correctly or if my memories somehow readjusted themselves. Thank you for your quick response. I know this video has been out for a while and thought maybe one of the other viewers would see it, I'm surprised and honored that you responded to it,and so soon. Happy shooting!
Congratulations Henry!!!🇺🇸
I scored expert with pop ups and perfect expert with 25yd qual. The 25yd was laughably written.
Edit: my old platoon sgt was pres 100. He was the only one on ft Carson with it. Also he held the 7.62x51 m118lr 1000 yard open sights record and was AMU. Coolest dude ever.
Thank you for enlightening the civilians. Well done.
Great video. I never dealt with a person that thought they were hot shit due to military qualifications on the range but it pops up in TV/movies ALL THE DAMN TIME. I've never considered myself more than just a decent or adequate shooter and even I've been able to get expert on every single weapon platform I qualified with. Some Alt-c, some popup, etc. Also, after seeing this I am WAAAYY less impressed with my marine buddies that talk up that 500 yard shot.
LOL, you may make fun of it, but I am still really proud of getting on paper with an M-14 at 1000 yards on the range at Quantico. Practical, no, but I didn't believe it even possible... Doing it was an eye opener.
Excellent vid. As someone who’s graduating infantry OSUT in the next 5 days and has also qualified expert, I can assure you that it essentially means nothing. The new qualification is substantially better than the old one you referenced, however. It simulates more realistic shooting conditions with barrier work and relatively short target exposures. It’s a step in the right direction for the Army.
This brings up a interesting question of how different qualification is in different countries/services.
By far the best shots I saw in NATO service were the older reservists. Most of the active duty "Conscripts at that time", couldn't hit crap and a NCO was responsible for zeroing their rifles for them. Germany 1986-89
@@richardsveum8452 Hi. That comment doesn't surprise me at all. Isn't that just called "Living in the modern era??" The good ole days, you actually needed to do things for yourself. Nowadays, everything is handed to you on a platter. It's very sad.
For Switzerland it's a set-distance course of fire:
For rifles it's 20 rounds at 300m:
5 rounds onto a 1m diameter bullseye target ("300m Scheibe A" on Google) scored 0-5 (the diameters are 20cm for 5, 40 for 4, 60 for 3, 80 for 2, 100 for 1)
15 rounds onto a 1m diameter camouflaged figure target ("Kombinierte Feldscheibe B" on Google) overlaid with scoring rings, scored 0-4. The 4 is once again 20cm, the 3 is the rest of the figure (45cm wide and 50cm tall), the 2 is 70cm, the 1 is 100cm.
To pass you need 42 points out of 85 and three 0-scores at most - for the marksmanship ribbon you need 72/85.
For handguns it's 20 rounds at 25m, the target is similar to the B34 handgun target, but it's just the scoring part without the figure and it's 6-10, not 7-10. That's then scaled to 45x76cm.
The course of fire is 5 rounds slow fire, then 5 rounds each in 50, 40 and 30 seconds.
To pass you need 120 out of 200, again with three 0-scores at most - for the marksmanship ribbon you need 180/200.
Just saw this. I was an SP in the Air Force in the 80’s. I qualified expert with both handgun and rifle. These were old, 60’s M16’s without forward assist. We(SP’s) didn’t shoot 22lr conversions contrary to popular believe. We did shoot very small targets at 25 meters. It was a difficult courses of fire. Everyone had to qualify, but only about 10% got expert. You could really tell us country kids that were brought up deer, pheasant and duck hunting from the city kids that never saw a gun before. The handgun course of fire was kinda a joke. We carried S&W model 15 Combat Masterpiece’s with target sights and triggers. Shit for combat, but one hell of a target pistol. If you had any skill at all you did well.
Well put! I went to Parris Island in 1992 and retired in 2012. So from the M16A2 to the M4. From Iron sights only to ACOG with backup irons, and by the end of my career some guys at M4A?? with no irons at all... In 2003 I took an M9 and an M16A2 to Iraq...And from one type of KD scoring system to another and then back again. I say all that so I can put into perspective how sick I get of guys bragging about shooting at 500 yds with iron sights. On the USMC KD range ( In my opinion) M16A2 Iron sights are much more precise than an ACOG at 500 yds. And like you said. Its a huge target. Plus you get 10 shots in a time limit of 10 min. Im not sure if they still get to use a "loop" sling or not.
For a new shooter, or some one that hasnt shot much it sure seems like a big deal, and it sounds cool to say, but it really isnt that hard. 200 and 300 yd line rapid fire is much more difficult. And 200 yd Standing offhand using a hasty sling is harder. 500 yd line is the easiest component of the USMC KD course.
Ive been retired for just over 10 years now and have no idea what they do these days. But I hope its something more than just target shooting. I hope they have included some movement and shooting from behind walls our thru windows using cover.
On another note I am also sick of older guys talking about how great the M14 was and how the M16 is junk. I get it the XM16 was a failure. But by the M16A1 it was figured out.
Great video. Im going to share it on a Marine Corps FB page and see how pissed off I can get the Old timers with this.
Wow that's a huge target. At Fort Benning GA I never saw a target that large ever. (2005)
Our 300m pop up target was far smaller than that behemoth.
Shooting at 25m also severely reduces your ability to spot some of the basic marksmanship skill failures a soldier might have, for example holding the rifle up level.
Currently my favorite way to prove my skill level in person is to hit a 2/3 Ipsc silhouette (steel plate, looks to be the same size as the "reduced" featured in this video) at 400m with my SKS. This rifle is as issued no modifications, no refurbishment. Best part is, not on a flat range. I'm shooting across the side of a windy mountain with wind swirling all over. Prone supported on a backpack just on the ungroomed forest ground. hit rate is about 50%. Admittedly not that impressive, but enough to make most of the other people who fancy themselves "experts" ooh and ahh.
me: i have the medals
enemy: it's the thought that counts
How about the Chair Force (USAF)? I shot Expert with the M15 (38), M1911A1, M9, M11, and M16A1/M16A2. I enlisted in 1978, never saw an M16A2 until 1989. Q'd most of the time on a 25m range. Shot the M16, M79/M148/203, M60 on 100m + ranges only twice in 20 years. Sometimes when I was a "grenadier" I was issued a rifle w 4 mags AND an M79 w a sealed canister of ammo for that. I had to lug all of that everywhere I went. ;)
G-day mate, absolutely brilliant, cheers for the data and knowledge.
Personally I'm a good shooter with an RK-62. It has some nice iron sights, but past 150-200 meters I wouldn't even bother shooting a mansized target. I've shot an RK-62 at 300 meters at an target about the size that was 1meter by 1 meter, hitting consitantly inside the target. That was in a prone position and unsupported. Doing that on the kneeling position was a bit harder but still manageable.
(Sorry for my bad English. English isn't my first language)
Officially, my new favorite channel.
:)
Excellent video, most enjoyable! I agree with Mike (BOTR) I have used an SLR for long range shooting and used a S&B 1.5 - 6 x 42 mil-dot scope, the chap who reckoned he used iron sights at 800 yds was fuzzy in the extreme.
That last sentence summed it up so much.
My favorite trick for the M9 qual was to completely miss the target completely during off hand unsupported. They only counted the misses that were still on paper.
I really miss the pop up targets from the army in wish there some civilian ranges that had it. It was fun
Look up Mini-Mo targets. They're basically a Mozambique drill that resets itself. Cool shit
I figured out the Alt-C Qual cheat as a PFC after the second or third time going through it. I can't think of any time after that that I didn't qualify "expert" with my M4. I can count the number of times qualified on an actual pop-up range on both hands, and the majority of those were in basic training.
I'm a better marksman as a civilian than I ever was as a Paratrooper
I just recently found your videos and have been watching them none stop when I have time this was a great video I have a lot of respect for you guys keep up the good work
I used to qualify on a range (cannot remember if it was 150 or 200m) with the SA80 A2. I always hit 100% of my shots. The target was fucking huge, probably 4ft square. I laugh when I think back to how pleased I was at that.
100% qualified expert on an alt-c target by gaming the system just like Henry described… a smart specialist.
Also qualified expert on the 300m pop up range.
I once scored 73 out of 40 during an alt-c qualification. I was also using the smart specialist technique
Every time "it's my jeep" (or variant) comes up, I just burst out laughing. This was a great video, thanks for doing this one.
I loved this video. This was great stuff. Now do a video on why sub moa guns are not as common as everyone says and why you may not even need one.
I'd be interested in this video aswell.
I feel I and others get so caught up on how tight of a group of a rifle can shoot, that we loose sight of how much accuracy is even necessary for our desired applications.
"A smart Specialist" i have yet to ever have 1 of those, closest thing i have seen was a corporal with a touch of common sense
Well... specialists tend to be smart about one thing, and one thing only. That's what makes us "special". ;)
What complicates things is when a specialist is self-appointed or deludes themselves into thinking they excell in everything else outside their speciality too.
Just like that one guy i saw who claimed that as a contractor in Afghanistan he regularly engaged the enemy effectively with a mark 18 at 1400 meters with no problems.
Maybe he meant a mark 18 torpedo? But then again, Afghanistan has no sea. The plot thickens.
TheVinPetrol well tanks use to be called landships so maby some darpa project using your tax for some experimental bugu-weapon
The only time I saw a target as big as a jeep was at Fort Benning as a means to familiarize new shooters back in the late 90s. My issued rifles could never hit 300m, because when I was in, because they were pretty much pre-9/11 hand-me-downs with worn and abused parts.
Yep I'm US Army trained and yes I shot 40/40 once on the pop up course in 5 years. Always maintained expert level from basic to my last year. We do not cheat we are the US Army. 👍
That is thirteen minutes of low crawling to get close enough to jump up and sink a verbal knife into the brainstem from behind.
No wonder a friend of mine came back from posting in US with a marksman badge whilst i was on another posting . I still had to help him pass his APWT . NOW I KNOW