As you can see from the run time this one got long winded folks. We're going to have a bit of a think about how we structure episodes going forward to strike a balance between covering a topic in appropriate detail and remaining entertaining throughout.
Just 50 Minutes Or One Hour Long Is About Right..! Then I Like A Break To Grab A Ice Tea, 🍎 Apple And Sandwich. Go Outside Enjoy The Summer. Jump In Car With My Two 🐕 Doggies Bark At Good Looking Women And Scare Little Old Ladies. Stop At Garage Sales. Run My 🐕 Doggie At Secret Safe Location Around Town... Watch Out For Cops. Use A Couple Of Reusable McDonald Plastic Cups Of Water For Me And My 🐕 Doggies... Playing "Who Let The Dogs Out" : Who ! Who ! On My Car DVD Car Radio...
1:49:46 I like that you said "Sadly we dont have much more time" and then keep going for another hour :) awesome stuff guys! I really like the longer videos!
indeed. I personally look forward to the day mr elon bezos allows us to stream the histocrat directly into our brains 24/7. It's simply the most interesting and enjoyable version of the late stage capitalist hellscape i can imagine, and the minimum offering i demand in exchange for my humanity. 😁
"That must have been a great Dark Souls boss" That same centipede myth seems to be a significant inspiration behind the lore in Sekiro. Centipedes and dragons both play a big role in the story.
Impromptu Dark Souls lingo judge here. I'm gonna allow it, under the proviso that people sometimes colloquially include sekiro and bloodbourne (and now elden ring, and even king's field or deracinè from time to time) when they say "souls games", as a shorthand for "souls bourne" or "sekisoulsbourne" or "from soft games" or occasionally even "games by mr. zaki, that foot pics guy". I mean, these two work so hard bringing us the documentaries we have on in the background while lore hunting, they deserve a break. :)
45:00 I think one thing you might have missed about the stories surrounding the Middgard serpent is that it doesn't just instantly grow to the size where it can surround the world, that happens over time. Whenever we encounter the serpent in later myths it usually hasn't grown to it's full size yet, like that one time Thor tries to fish it up. At this point it's like at about half it's size, in the story of Uttgard Loki it has grown to it's full size and the reason why it'd be bad if Thor lifted it, is because he'd start Ragnarok. Like the way the myths are written is that all of Loki's children are slowly growing in strength in the background but we encounter them as they grow throughout the stories. It's not an inconsistency that the serpent shows up a few times not biting it's tail, that's just because it has not yet grown to it's full length. It's just implied that by the time you're hearing this story it has grown to that length.
When i was in New Zealand in 2005, the tour guide that i met with in the North Island said that Hawaiiki actually does NOT equal Hawaii. She indicated that it's a mythical place and that Hawaii might be named for Hawaiiki in the way we might have an Eden, Pennsylvania or Paradise Hills in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
2:09:51 Bro your channel is one of my favorites on YT and I’m a big time YT user so it’s saying a lot! Thanks a bunch for hours and hours of awesome content.
There is a a Chinese myth about Eclipses. It basically goes some great warrior cut a dragons head off and then threw it into a sky. The dragon's head basically now orbits the sky and ever once and awhile the sun will pass through it's mouth causing the temporary darkness.
Really surprised they never mentioned Slovenia. The capital city Ljubljana is full of dragon statues on the medievel bridges. There must be some stories attached to that. But found it interesting and would love to hear more about the Albanian dragon lore.
Re: Norse mythology, IIRC, Hel indeed refers to both a deity (goddess of death) and one of several afterlives, specifically a frozen waste where souls supposedly went if they didn't die in battle, in which case they'd end up in Valhalla instead. I assume by Verse Edda you mean the Poetic Edda, as opposed to the Prose Edda. Also, nine was a number with sacred significance in Norse culture - the world tree Yggdrasil holds up nine worlds, including Midgard (Middle-earth... yup, that's where it comes from). Anyway, great stuff, lads!
The word dragon entered the English language in the early 13th century from Old French dragon, which in turn comes from Latin: draconem (nominative draco) meaning "huge serpent, dragon", from Ancient Greek δράκων, drákōn (genitive δράκοντος, drákontos) "serpent, giant seafish".
interesting as skandinavian languages don't distinguish between dragon, worm and serpent - both being called "orm" (and there is a somewhat out of use word for dragon "Lindwurm" in german that also shows the idea of a dragon being a wormlike creature.)
@@TimL1980 Ahh in Dutch we have the word "lindworm" which are huge parasites that can infest your intestines. I'll give you no more details abt it if you dont mind
@TimL1980 that Ur comment made me also think of the Wyvern, a "dragon-like" creature (Although, the origins/culture(s) where the term originates from, I am not familiar with?)
Ōkami is a twist on Shintoism, but it’s a huge source of mythology. I was shocked how much I learned from it considering it’s a video game. Very underrated. Also, we want Kong!
One of my favorite bits of dragon lore is that in some Slavic regions, olms (the European cave-dwelling salamander) were thought to be baby dragons whenever they were washed up out of caves after a flood.
14:44 here in Romania we have basically the same story called "Tinerete fara batranete si viata fara de moarte" (Youthfulness without oldness and life without death, or something along the lines of) in which has the same idea of somebody going in a place where time flows much slower and then come back to the real world after a long time has passed, and then die. It is crazy how similar it is.
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This podcast is now also available on Spotify, iTunes and Stitcher! You can find it at the links below: Spotify - open.spotify.com/episode/0jqGdOSTS2QsUBSTt1Hao9 iTunes - podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-world-of-dragons/id1514656609?i=1000477242483 Stitcher - www.stitcher.com/podcast/mythillogical-podcast/e/76743005
@@michaelwall3393 Yes I Agree With You... We Are Entering The New Earth. Dragons Really Are Big Lizards 🦎. Vikings, Roman And Greek Gods Are Demo God's. The Snake In The Garden Of Eden Was ID As Evil. Except The Bible Fail To Mention Who, How To Get Ride Of The Devil Or Evil. There Is Only One GOD. Since 426AD The Current Bible Put Together Was By ... The Easter Orthodoc Church And Many Important Chapters Where Left 0ut. Many Important Facts Like Who Really Is Evil Or How To ID The Devil And How To Get Rid Evil (Each And Every Day)...!
Would be neat if you did a show with all the “honorable mentions”. I was hoping to hear more on the Russian area, and more obscure areas, as I had heard of most of the others from the uk area. I read Beowulf. He was rather full of himself, rightly so. Brilliant show, thank you. ❤️
2:13:56 You were right at first, it's, phonetically, Kai Kai. And it's also supposed to explain the south of Chile's many islands. They were parts of the land that were torn away from the mainland during the battle.
It wasn't Fafnir's hoard that was cursed; it was a magic ring which had been included in the whole hoard as part of a wergild ransom paid by Odin and Frey for accidentally killing a dwarf. The hoard was paid to the dwarf's brothers, one of whom murdered the other for the gold. But it was the ring that was cursed, not the rest of the treasure. The story is very obviously a source for Tolkien's "one ring", as well as much of the dragon details on Smaug.
Amaterasu (the Sun) hiding in a cavern while her brother (the Storm) is raging definitely gives me the vibes of a volcanic winter of some sort, where the Sun is hidden behind the clouds while the elements go crazy. Or maybe it's just an eclipse that coincided with a bad storm. The brother finding a sword and giving it to the first imperial ancestor also reminds me of how meteoric iron was often the only source of the metal before humans learned to shape it themselves. It's theorized that many "magic swords" came from meteors, given that, made of iron, they'd be stronger than most bronze weapons, and since they came fro the sky they're obviously divine. It being a storm god specifically that granted this sword makes me think some sort of meteoric iron is likely. As for the centipede, I wonder if it comes from the discovery if an ancient whale skeleton, whose ribs might seem like many legs.
a lil' bit about the norse mythology part (i'm danish so i'm allowed ;) ) - the cat lifted by thor is not heavy, but the belly stretches far too long (bc it is the serpent) - Jordmundgandr is named "midgårdsormen" in danish (the mid-gard worm) and while dragon-like (and i appreciate your inclusion of it) is much more a snake than a dragon (in danish belief anyways) - Fenrir (Fenris in danish) is not the one to devour the sun, there are two wolves always chasing the sun and the moon, and when they finally catch their respective celestials, Ragnarok begins - the 9 steps are magically significant, when we knock on wood to ward off bad luck, we say "syv, ni, tretten" or "seven, nine, thirteen" because these numbers are magical, and this is essentially like kind of an AoE counterspell
There is actually a game based on Celtic mythology. It's a PS3 game called Folklore. I've played it but never finished. It's weirdly structured, there are 2 playable characters that play through the same areas but have different powers and storyline, tho the stories are interconnected.
I am in complete agreement that the new LED streetlights are OBJECTIVELY inferior to the old ones. There was something almost...magical, or sunset like about that beige-orange glow they used to give off. Oh and by the way. This is Facinating and really well produced. Damn fine work!
A quick aside, the legend of Indra and Vritra can be traced back to a common Indo-european dragonslayer myth. The parallels between it and Thor fighting the midgard serpent are present. Both are the child of a sort of earth mother. Both are lauded as manly and carry thunder-hammers. They both contend with a giant serpent (the midgard serpent is well... A serpent. Likewise Vritra is described as a snake). This serpentine adversary is known to be all encompassing and is associated with water
The etymology of the word Reptile is relatively recent even though it is Latin it wasn't being used specifically for what we now know as reptiles until the 14th to the 17th century when it took off and they started excluding animals such as amphibians and scorpions. Before that, most cultures often referred to reptiles as serpents or dragons depending on the context and how they moved. Serpents slid on their belly, but didn't necessarily have a lack of legs, so this could include crocodiles and alligators as well as turtles. However dragons also sometimes referred to these creatures, as well as the Hippopotamus and even the Girraffe.
Heroditus probably saw places like Wadi El Hitan(Whale Valley in Egypt). Extinct whale bones are found in many desert locations where one wouldn’t expect to find whale bones and being that far away from the oceans probably made people think their fin bones were wing bones, they have very long serpent like spines. Etc etc. maybe no dinosaur era bones, but later marine mammal bones.
very interesting. thank chaps. have you read Stephen Oppenheimers eden in the east? I'm mentioning it because of the similarities between the flood myths of different cultures around the Pacific,. he hypothesized that this gives them all a single point of origin. it was the bit about Maori and Hawaii that reminded of it.
23:17 as a pedant I'd say it actually doesn't disprove your opinion that dragons aren't based off of dinosaurs. After all Plesiosaurs aren't dinosaurs.
Why is it so hard to believe that dragons are comets and bolides? The first story, exiled from heaven being loud, flatten forest, kill people, and the Sun is put in a cave for long time. Actually, most of the stories are alike above, globally.
taniwha pronounced -tun - e- far the wh is a f sound. taniwha can be in the water or land.. sometimes considered more a dangerous spot or weird eddie in a river is also a taniwha. so has a physical aspect, and, an ambigious warning of a dodgy spot along the way. mania are serpent like bird and are guardians but they are usually more ocean bound. we have a living dinosour/dragon here today, which is a lizard called tuatara. also this may i nterest you on the topic.. kupe is said to have arrived in new zealand around the year 1400 eng.mataurangamaori.tki.org.nz/Support-materials/Te-Reo-Maori/Maori-Myths-Legends-and-Contemporary-Stories/Ngake-and-Whataitai-the-taniwha-of-Wellington-harbour
1:31:35 -- *LULZ* because the Jutes are my favorite sub-grouping of Northern European Dark Age culture. I can almost imagine the stories told about them in the centuries between 600 and 1100 AD. "And, so he told Alfred, NOT A JUTE! But did Alfred listen ?? NO. And now look at the Isle of Wight. Over-run with Jutes."
(Forewarning, complete amateur here) But that reference about the red dragon devouring the child could, potentially, be linked to Arch Angel Samael who was said to be linked heavily with their form of the devil/Satan and a traitor. And, I believe, he is often linked heavily with the imagery of a winged serpent/ dragon and labelled a traitor of heaven and to be one of those that was apart of the war over heaven. Also, really enjoying your podcasts! Even if I'm a whole year late 😂
Piasa is pronounced Pi-ah-saw. I live just down the road from Grafton, IL USA so I’m very familiar with that mural and the legend. Thanks for covering some of my hometown lore. Oh and the tribe is Ca-Hoke-ean though it’s spelled Cahokia. If you do an episode on Thunderbirds, I highly suggest you check out articles about Grafton, Illinois. Love this podcast and keep up the fantastic work ❤️
I do enjoy these and Charles so often yr pronunciations do make me smile, ps found you guys recently, I watcTH-cam algo’s, and I’ve subscribed to Hera more
Always fun to hear Crofty talk about Japanese mythology, so much better than his rants on Greek mythology Edit: Aaaand Crofty still manages to shoehorn in a studio ghibli reference. Damn it Crofty.
58:50 -- RE: Ancient Vedic India; You guys seem to have missed a genuine point of HUGE IMPORTANCE, the Ancient Indians were using Iron about 1000 years before the Middle East and West entered the Iron Age. This probably explains the dragon tales.
Okami was one of my favorite video games. They did such an amazing job representing Japanese mythology, from Princess Kaguya to Yamato-no-Orochi to Issun-Boshi
Same! It made a huge impact on me as a kid and still to this day I adore it. It's kinda wild hearing the actual stories it drew direct inspiration from and piecing together how many aspects were in the game
Dragons guarding some kind of treasure like the golden fleece comes up sometimes in Greek mythology, alongside the more traditional guarding of springs and other sacred places, but the Norse took the idea of the treasure hoarding dragon and ran with it.
48:10 small detail: Yes, "Nine" has a meaning in this context. It stands for a low, unspecified number - like "Seven" in other tales like the seven dwarfs for example... Source: Paul Herrmann - Nordische Mythologie
Is this the guy from No Such Thing as a Fish?? I know every middle class person from Soutern England essentially sounds the same but still it sounds so much like him! That wasn't a diss by the way I love both shows.
These are fun. I learn something from you learning something. Lol So much time researching saved, and you relay it in a casual, relaxed way. I'm enjoying the series.
I love that they don't rush through the information--some things just can't be rushed! Sure, there are a lot of tangents, though they're germane to the topic.
No, Daniel and the Dragon is not a Tiamat story. The Tiamat story specifically cites her death as the creation of earth and sky. She's the equivalent of Cronus, the proto-god, not worshipped because in the myth, she's dead. It also does not say, as far as I'm aware, that the Babylonians were literally worshipping a dragon. It says they had a dragon. Until Daniel poisoned it.
strangely enough ,,underneath the tor in glastonbury are 2 springs ..the red and white springs ..one known for its reddish water and the other one for its milky one ,,,i wonder if there is any connection here ?
One of the Laws of the Internet is that it is impossible to pronounce Norse words properly, a Norse expert will always magically appear and tell you you're wrong.
it's bloody eye-opening to spot the etymology of romanian words for dragon, zmei/zmeu from the slavs, balaur from the albanians, dragon from the latin background of the language. (zmeu also means kite, i have been living a lie for the better part of 20 years)
This was a really cool topic. I loved how deep you went with the lore and found comparisons across cultures. I was bummed that you spent so little time on the American continents though. You really only skimmed over a few of them. Did you know there's indigenous legends about giant river snakes all the way up in Canada? I'm hoping you'll revisit for a part 3 someday. 🙂
Hello thank you for this really excellent discussion extremely detailed and insightful. I would very much like to read more about Suzana (if I have spelled that correctly?) and many of the other characters mentioned could you contact me. Best wishes
On stories drawing from mythology and religion: Naruto. A large part of the series backstory is a mirror of the interaction between Shintoism and Buddhism and how they came together to build modern Japan. Later in the series there’s a fight between a character named Orochimaru, who’s inspired by the antagonist of an early 1800’s Japanese who novel, against a character called Itachi Uchiha, one of the characters who draws _heavily_ on Shintoism for inspiration. One of Itachi’s powers is essentially becoming a giant and it’s called _Susanō_, and Orochimaru’s powers largely revolve around snakes. You get an eight-headed snake fighting a magical giant. Orochimaru, on top of being able to become an eight-headed snake, also had a double-edged straight sword, in the style of pre-katana Japanese swords. He called it _Kusanagi_.
Nice'un lads; ye were thinkin' o'Maui, a pan-Polynesian hero/demigod figure. Hawaiki or Havaiki is th'mythological homeland o'all Polynesians. It's linguistically connective to Hawai'i (obvs), but...there's loads o'sites (Wikipedia bein' th'first stop) fer ya ta read up on. Aloha an'mahalo nui loa from O'ahu 🤙
Hey, If you haven't played Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice yet, that's got a great look at Hela and norse underworld mythology. And it's just genuinely beautiful as an experience.
1:56:00 Hawaiki is Hawaii in the Moari dialect. And despite the distance is is reasonable because of the westerlies winds that move from east to west, and the Polynesian regularly sailed against these winds and would use them to drift back if they needed to. The Polynesians might have made it as far as south America aswell but that's more speculation based on pretty circumstantial stuff and how it is 100% possible to sail from Hawaii or even Taiwan, the original homeland of Polynesians, to the America's only using Polynesian sailing techniques and boats.
in the case of the story that mentioned the Hindu dieties: maybe the guy got punished for killing a dragon because he stepped above his station? May be it was not his job to kill the dragon. India did have a caste system. maybe this is a cautionary tale of staying in one's caste? just an idea. and if i have offended anyone with this question, my bad.
Excellent research. But I think there's little bit difference between serpent and dragon. Serpent are universal malevolent entity in almost all cultures. But dragon is more specific to Chinese & Norse mythology. Especially fire breathing. May be they represent a marauding & plundering army. Han Chinese were very afraid of attacking Huns.
Your drinking game would have had me totally sozzeld when you talk about dragons in Maori mythology.. interesting hearing your own storys filtered through a different cultural background Enjoyed but sorry pronunciation was so funny
What a FANTASTIC draconian marathon! BRILLIANT. But you missed 1 European dragon. The Dragon of Rhodes. During the occupation of Rhodes by the Hospitaller Order of St. John (SMOM) There was a Provençal Knight Dieudonné de Gozon, who famously killed a dragon that had been terrorizing the people of Rhodes. Even though the Knight had been warned not to hunt & kill the dragon, by the Prince & Grand Master of the Order. He set out and killed the the beast. Dieudonné became a hero to the people of Rhodes, and his heroic exploits with ridding Rhodes of this dangerous dragon, enabled him to be elected as Prince & Grand Master of the Order in 1346. The Knight Dieudonné de Gozon was a real member of the Sovereign Military & Hospitaller Order of St. John. & within the Order & still on Rhodes, he is known as: Dieudonné the dragon slayer. BTW, although Dieudonné actually did kill something, even if not an actual dragon, some believe it might have been a Nile crocodile, which might have been washed out to sea from Egypt.
I'm curious if the 9 steps is relevant to the Elapidae family of snakes that are so venomous as to be referred to as the 9 step snake. Where you will get 9 steps before death. The 9 steps just seems to clear a correlation to be accidental to me.
6:00 -- Aw Jeez guys, I was listening along and suddenly I remembered, there's also a reference to "Dragons" specifically in the Hagakure. "In China there was a man who loved pictures of Dragons. He decorated his garments and furnishing with dragon designs to the disdain of others. The Dragon God was highly impressed with his deep interest. So, just once only he decided to show himself to the man as a real Dragon. Seeing him the man was shocked and fainted. A man who usually talks big is not as good as his word if faced with a real situation." ^^ Neat-o! www.hyoho.com/Hagakure3.html
Forgive me if I missed it...but there is also a dragon figure in the Gnostic texts. The false creator of the universe and the true creator of mankind, Yaldebaoth, is a dragon figure. He has the body of a serpent and the head of a lion. He is pretty much equivalent to Yahweh in Judaic texts.
When you told the story about the turtle I instantly thought about dragon ball. Young goku helps the lost turtle return to the sea and turtle rewards him by bringing back master roshi who gives them magical gifts like the nimbus cloud and a magical ball the can summon a DRAGON!!!
You need to do a third one in which you explore what dragons symbolise (i.e. extreme emotions, overcoming them & weather) - ALL mythology is symbolic, or truth told in an entertaining way e.g. the Mauri myths about their geography were factually correct, just not explained in the usual boring Western way. Interpretation is key when exploring topics like this as most tribal societies are polycentric, rather than egocentric. If you'd like to discuss further, let me know
2:31:30 -- SO YEAH, I find the Rainbow / Waterfall linkage intriguing, but I do also have to wonder, why no linkages mentioned between Dragons and Volcanoes then??
Mal-lev-o-lent not mallow-vent. Number 9 in Norse Mythology: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Norse_mythology#:~:text=The%20number%20nine%20is%20also,that%20are%20supported%20by%20Yggdrasil. Are you guys doing any research or are you just winging it?
I commented on "here be Dragons". About you not mentioning a dragon I grew up with. I'm a little bit older than you guys 1980 had Dragonslayer the movie with the blond guy yanoush from Ghostbusters 2..... Um and Ally Macbeal.... Jim Henson puppet vermathraxx was pretty cool even tho she doesn't talk m 😅😅😅😅. Maybe you will I listening now lol😅😅😅😅❤
20:00 Lots of western webnovelists have been using random bits of celtic, and slavic, mythology. It's just most of the time they aren't big enough authors for it to be notable.
1:55:46 Good effort but in Maori WH if pronounced like F so Taniwha is Tanifa. Also Hawaiki has nothing to do with Hawaii. DNA testing has placed Hawaiki to be Samoa. Also stick to History as Geographically Hawaii is nearly just as far from New Zealand as the Philippines and Taiwan (Which Incidentally is the route Ancient and ancestral Polynesians took, before settling on their respective Islands. According to Mitochondrial DNA) Maui is ubiquitous with Polynesians and his legend varies from Island to Island and culture to culture.
there are a few problems with siegfried being arminius. 1. in the nibelungenlied there is an actual real historical figure: attila (called etzel in the nibelungenlied). siegfried's widow (kriemhild) marries him after the death of siegfried. 2. siegfired's wife and her brothers (the nobility from burgundy) are christians. the whole feud between siegfried's wife and the queen of iceland (brunhild) is about who has the right to enter the _christian_ cathedral/church of worms (a city in germany and former capital city of old burgundy) first. 3. in the early first century (during the battle of teutoburg forest) the burgundians still lived _way_ further to the east - not even close to worms. 4. arminius was a cherusci, who also lived further to the east, while siegfried was born in xanten. this means that siegfried must have lived (if he existed at all) in an already christianized germanic society, that already faced the huns - most likely the first half of the 5th century. arminius on the other hand lived in a time when not even the romans were christianized; and also the huns weren't a thing yet - at least not for germanics in central europe. yes, arminius was killed by german 'nobility' (even his own relatives), _but_ that wasn't really that uncommon back in the days, when the germanic tribes mainly fought _each other_ and only occasionally turned against the romans (or celts). the idea, that arminius was or might have been a germanic hero is 'relatively new' (first ideas 500 years ago, when martin luther depicted him in an anti-roman way, that fitted his own anti-papal narrative; but the actual heroification 200-300 years ago during the rise of german nationalism). before that he basically was just a usurper who tried to lure other germanic tribes under his (or at least cherusci) rule. and the nibelungenlied is older than the herofication of arminius, so there wouldn't have been any reason to dedicate a heroic saga to arminus at all. all they have in common is that they're seen as german(ic) heroes *today.*
I think the chaoskampf wasn't really relevant, they were more of a primordial serpent. Dragons really start with Greek drakons, which evolve from big snakes into demonic firebreathers by the high middle ages.
I can't think of a better way to put a PHD to use than spreading knowledge to the public. Bravo to you.
As you can see from the run time this one got long winded folks. We're going to have a bit of a think about how we structure episodes going forward to strike a balance between covering a topic in appropriate detail and remaining entertaining throughout.
When the conversation is flowing I don't think too much structure is needed
I wouldn't worry too much.
Just 50 Minutes Or One Hour Long Is About Right..! Then I Like A Break To Grab A Ice Tea, 🍎 Apple And Sandwich. Go Outside Enjoy The Summer. Jump In Car With My Two 🐕 Doggies Bark At Good Looking Women And Scare Little Old Ladies. Stop At Garage Sales. Run My 🐕 Doggie At Secret Safe Location Around Town... Watch Out For Cops. Use A Couple Of Reusable McDonald Plastic Cups Of Water For Me And My 🐕 Doggies... Playing "Who Let The Dogs Out" : Who ! Who !
On My Car DVD Car Radio...
AndyBeans agreed
James C. I agree as well
1:49:46 I like that you said "Sadly we dont have much more time" and then keep going for another hour :) awesome stuff guys! I really like the longer videos!
indeed. I personally look forward to the day mr elon bezos allows us to stream the histocrat directly into our brains 24/7. It's simply the most interesting and enjoyable version of the late stage capitalist hellscape i can imagine, and the minimum offering i demand in exchange for my humanity. 😁
"That must have been a great Dark Souls boss"
That same centipede myth seems to be a significant inspiration behind the lore in Sekiro. Centipedes and dragons both play a big role in the story.
Alas I still need to play it myself
And the centipede appears as a yokai boss in the first nioh game I think
It also inspired a pokemon
First time fighting a giant centipede in ARK was pretty hard.
Impromptu Dark Souls lingo judge here. I'm gonna allow it, under the proviso that people sometimes colloquially include sekiro and bloodbourne (and now elden ring, and even king's field or deracinè from time to time) when they say "souls games", as a shorthand for "souls bourne" or "sekisoulsbourne" or "from soft games" or occasionally even "games by mr. zaki, that foot pics guy".
I mean, these two work so hard bringing us the documentaries we have on in the background while lore hunting, they deserve a break. :)
45:00 I think one thing you might have missed about the stories surrounding the Middgard serpent is that it doesn't just instantly grow to the size where it can surround the world, that happens over time. Whenever we encounter the serpent in later myths it usually hasn't grown to it's full size yet, like that one time Thor tries to fish it up. At this point it's like at about half it's size, in the story of Uttgard Loki it has grown to it's full size and the reason why it'd be bad if Thor lifted it, is because he'd start Ragnarok. Like the way the myths are written is that all of Loki's children are slowly growing in strength in the background but we encounter them as they grow throughout the stories. It's not an inconsistency that the serpent shows up a few times not biting it's tail, that's just because it has not yet grown to it's full length. It's just implied that by the time you're hearing this story it has grown to that length.
When i was in New Zealand in 2005, the tour guide that i met with in the North Island said that Hawaiiki actually does NOT equal Hawaii. She indicated that it's a mythical place and that Hawaii might be named for Hawaiiki in the way we might have an Eden, Pennsylvania or Paradise Hills in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
2:09:51 Bro your channel is one of my favorites on YT and I’m a big time YT user so it’s saying a lot! Thanks a bunch for hours and hours of awesome content.
Ending on the Mesoamerican Feathered Serpent is cool. Especially since he is probably the most well known dragon.
I enjoyed this within the first 20 minutes and can tell now,this is what I have been waiting for !! Just the way it flows is nice
There is a a Chinese myth about Eclipses. It basically goes some great warrior cut a dragons head off and then threw it into a sky. The dragon's head basically now orbits the sky and ever once and awhile the sun will pass through it's mouth causing the temporary darkness.
Really surprised they never mentioned Slovenia. The capital city Ljubljana is full of dragon statues on the medievel bridges. There must be some stories attached to that. But found it interesting and would love to hear more about the Albanian dragon lore.
There is a story about the Greek hero Jason slaying a dragon in what would later become Ljubljana.
The worst part of being a little dragon is
trying to blow out the candles on your birthday cake
Easily the best dragon information ive ever heard, well researched, just as well compiled. Luv it.
Re: Norse mythology, IIRC, Hel indeed refers to both a deity (goddess of death) and one of several afterlives, specifically a frozen waste where souls supposedly went if they didn't die in battle, in which case they'd end up in Valhalla instead.
I assume by Verse Edda you mean the Poetic Edda, as opposed to the Prose Edda. Also, nine was a number with sacred significance in Norse culture - the world tree Yggdrasil holds up nine worlds, including Midgard (Middle-earth... yup, that's where it comes from).
Anyway, great stuff, lads!
The word dragon entered the English language in the early 13th century from Old French dragon, which in turn comes from Latin: draconem (nominative draco) meaning "huge serpent, dragon", from Ancient Greek δράκων, drákōn (genitive δράκοντος, drákontos) "serpent, giant seafish".
interesting as skandinavian languages don't distinguish between dragon, worm and serpent - both being called "orm" (and there is a somewhat out of use word for dragon "Lindwurm" in german that also shows the idea of a dragon being a wormlike creature.)
@@TimL1980 Ahh in Dutch we have the word "lindworm" which are huge parasites that can infest your intestines. I'll give you no more details abt it if you dont mind
@@TimL1980 of course! There prolly are no snakes in Scandinavia.. duh! Do you think worms might be big eels?
Now do a word history on "dinosaur". Then we can discuss why there's drawings of 'dragons" in caves and ancient Chinese and Egyptian pottery.
@TimL1980 that Ur comment made me also think of the Wyvern, a "dragon-like" creature (Although, the origins/culture(s) where the term originates from, I am not familiar with?)
Ōkami is a twist on Shintoism, but it’s a huge source of mythology. I was shocked how much I learned from it considering it’s a video game. Very underrated.
Also, we want Kong!
One of my favorite bits of dragon lore is that in some Slavic regions, olms (the European cave-dwelling salamander) were thought to be baby dragons whenever they were washed up out of caves after a flood.
14:44 here in Romania we have basically the same story called "Tinerete fara batranete si viata fara de moarte" (Youthfulness without oldness and life without death, or something along the lines of) in which has the same idea of somebody going in a place where time flows much slower and then come back to the real world after a long time has passed, and then die. It is crazy how similar it is.
It's eerily similar to the Irish legend of Oisín, Niamh and Tír na nÓg.
@@TheWiseSalmon yeah what is up with all this stories all over the world?
Doesn't Dracula literally meaning Dragon in Romanian?
@@transnistria4237 dracula would translate to demonman
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dragons!! happy to hear i can get this on my podcast app from now on. but giving the youtube version a comment so it's more likely to be reccomended
Likewise! Can’t wait for more of these podcasts. I’m very interested in what topics they’ll tackle next.
The whole episode captured my interest and I came back and watched segments multiple times. Nice job representing the information!
This podcast is now also available on Spotify, iTunes and Stitcher! You can find it at the links below:
Spotify - open.spotify.com/episode/0jqGdOSTS2QsUBSTt1Hao9
iTunes - podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-world-of-dragons/id1514656609?i=1000477242483
Stitcher - www.stitcher.com/podcast/mythillogical-podcast/e/76743005
@@michaelwall3393 Yes I Agree With You... We Are Entering The New Earth. Dragons Really Are Big Lizards 🦎. Vikings, Roman And Greek Gods Are Demo God's. The Snake In The Garden Of Eden Was ID As Evil. Except The Bible Fail To Mention Who, How To Get Ride Of The Devil Or Evil.
There Is Only One GOD. Since 426AD The Current Bible Put Together Was By ... The Easter Orthodoc Church And Many Important Chapters Where Left 0ut. Many Important Facts Like Who Really Is Evil Or How To ID The Devil And How To Get Rid Evil (Each And Every Day)...!
Would be neat if you did a show with all the “honorable mentions”. I was hoping to hear more on the Russian area, and more obscure areas, as I had heard of most of the others from the uk area. I read Beowulf. He was rather full of himself, rightly so. Brilliant show, thank you. ❤️
18:00 I was waiting for the catch on that story. "Here's a bag of unlimited rice, BUT..."
2:13:56 You were right at first, it's, phonetically, Kai Kai. And it's also supposed to explain the south of Chile's many islands. They were parts of the land that were torn away from the mainland during the battle.
These surveys are invaluable. There needs to be more content like this. Been looking for awhile. Thanks for your diligence.
It wasn't Fafnir's hoard that was cursed; it was a magic ring which had been included in the whole hoard as part of a wergild ransom paid by Odin and Frey for accidentally killing a dwarf. The hoard was paid to the dwarf's brothers, one of whom murdered the other for the gold. But it was the ring that was cursed, not the rest of the treasure. The story is very obviously a source for Tolkien's "one ring", as well as much of the dragon details on Smaug.
In the version I know both the gold and the ring were cursed.
Amaterasu (the Sun) hiding in a cavern while her brother (the Storm) is raging definitely gives me the vibes of a volcanic winter of some sort, where the Sun is hidden behind the clouds while the elements go crazy. Or maybe it's just an eclipse that coincided with a bad storm.
The brother finding a sword and giving it to the first imperial ancestor also reminds me of how meteoric iron was often the only source of the metal before humans learned to shape it themselves. It's theorized that many "magic swords" came from meteors, given that, made of iron, they'd be stronger than most bronze weapons, and since they came fro the sky they're obviously divine. It being a storm god specifically that granted this sword makes me think some sort of meteoric iron is likely.
As for the centipede, I wonder if it comes from the discovery if an ancient whale skeleton, whose ribs might seem like many legs.
Taniwha is pronounced Ta-nee-faa. The name of the Largest lake in New Zealand is Taupo.
a lil' bit about the norse mythology part (i'm danish so i'm allowed ;) )
- the cat lifted by thor is not heavy, but the belly stretches far too long (bc it is the serpent)
- Jordmundgandr is named "midgårdsormen" in danish (the mid-gard worm) and while dragon-like (and i appreciate your inclusion of it) is much more a snake than a dragon (in danish belief anyways)
- Fenrir (Fenris in danish) is not the one to devour the sun, there are two wolves always chasing the sun and the moon, and when they finally catch their respective celestials, Ragnarok begins
- the 9 steps are magically significant, when we knock on wood to ward off bad luck, we say "syv, ni, tretten" or "seven, nine, thirteen" because these numbers are magical, and this is essentially like kind of an AoE counterspell
You do incredible work, thank you.
There is actually a game based on Celtic mythology. It's a PS3 game called Folklore. I've played it but never finished. It's weirdly structured, there are 2 playable characters that play through the same areas but have different powers and storyline, tho the stories are interconnected.
I am in complete agreement that the new LED streetlights are OBJECTIVELY inferior to the old ones. There was something almost...magical, or sunset like about that beige-orange glow they used to give off.
Oh and by the way. This is Facinating and really well produced. Damn fine work!
Brilliant, thanks for taking the time to do this one.
A quick aside, the legend of Indra and Vritra can be traced back to a common Indo-european dragonslayer myth. The parallels between it and Thor fighting the midgard serpent are present. Both are the child of a sort of earth mother. Both are lauded as manly and carry thunder-hammers. They both contend with a giant serpent (the midgard serpent is well... A serpent. Likewise Vritra is described as a snake). This serpentine adversary is known to be all encompassing and is associated with water
The etymology of the word Reptile is relatively recent even though it is Latin it wasn't being used specifically for what we now know as reptiles until the 14th to the 17th century when it took off and they started excluding animals such as amphibians and scorpions.
Before that, most cultures often referred to reptiles as serpents or dragons depending on the context and how they moved. Serpents slid on their belly, but didn't necessarily have a lack of legs, so this could include crocodiles and alligators as well as turtles. However dragons also sometimes referred to these creatures, as well as the Hippopotamus and even the Girraffe.
Heroditus probably saw places like Wadi El Hitan(Whale Valley in Egypt). Extinct whale bones are found in many desert locations where one wouldn’t expect to find whale bones and being that far away from the oceans probably made people think their fin bones were wing bones, they have very long serpent like spines. Etc etc. maybe no dinosaur era bones, but later marine mammal bones.
That's what I thought
Spoon Man and Scaly, a dynamic duo!
very interesting. thank chaps. have you read Stephen Oppenheimers eden in the east? I'm mentioning it because of the similarities between the flood myths of different cultures around the Pacific,. he hypothesized that this gives them all a single point of origin. it was the bit about Maori and Hawaii that reminded of it.
23:17 as a pedant I'd say it actually doesn't disprove your opinion that dragons aren't based off of dinosaurs. After all Plesiosaurs aren't dinosaurs.
Why is it so hard to believe that dragons are comets and bolides? The first story, exiled from heaven being loud, flatten forest, kill people, and the Sun is put in a cave for long time. Actually, most of the stories are alike above, globally.
Wouldn’t Japan have geological evidence of that? Not being facetious, I don’t actually know if it has a crater or anything.
taniwha pronounced -tun - e- far the wh is a f sound. taniwha can be in the water or land.. sometimes considered more a dangerous spot or weird eddie in a river is also a taniwha. so has a physical aspect, and, an ambigious warning of a dodgy spot along the way. mania are serpent like bird and are guardians but they are usually more ocean bound. we have a living dinosour/dragon here today, which is a lizard called tuatara. also this may i nterest you on the topic.. kupe is said to have arrived in new zealand around the year 1400 eng.mataurangamaori.tki.org.nz/Support-materials/Te-Reo-Maori/Maori-Myths-Legends-and-Contemporary-Stories/Ngake-and-Whataitai-the-taniwha-of-Wellington-harbour
1:31:35 -- *LULZ* because the Jutes are my favorite sub-grouping of Northern European Dark Age culture. I can almost imagine the stories told about them in the centuries between 600 and 1100 AD. "And, so he told Alfred, NOT A JUTE! But did Alfred listen ?? NO. And now look at the Isle of Wight. Over-run with Jutes."
SEE ALSO: www.etymonline.com/word/jut
I intentionally used the wrong word there... :P
(Forewarning, complete amateur here) But that reference about the red dragon devouring the child could, potentially, be linked to Arch Angel Samael who was said to be linked heavily with their form of the devil/Satan and a traitor. And, I believe, he is often linked heavily with the imagery of a winged serpent/ dragon and labelled a traitor of heaven and to be one of those that was apart of the war over heaven.
Also, really enjoying your podcasts! Even if I'm a whole year late 😂
Piasa is pronounced Pi-ah-saw. I live just down the road from Grafton, IL USA so I’m very familiar with that mural and the legend. Thanks for covering some of my hometown lore. Oh and the tribe is Ca-Hoke-ean though it’s spelled Cahokia. If you do an episode on Thunderbirds, I highly suggest you check out articles about Grafton, Illinois. Love this podcast and keep up the fantastic work ❤️
I was sure this would be already commented so that I wouldn’t have to. Big fan of the Piasa.
I do enjoy these and Charles so often yr pronunciations do make me smile, ps found you guys recently, I watcTH-cam algo’s, and I’ve subscribed to Hera more
Always fun to hear Crofty talk about Japanese mythology, so much better than his rants on Greek mythology
Edit:
Aaaand Crofty still manages to shoehorn in a studio ghibli reference. Damn it Crofty.
58:50 -- RE: Ancient Vedic India; You guys seem to have missed a genuine point of HUGE IMPORTANCE, the Ancient Indians were using Iron about 1000 years before the Middle East and West entered the Iron Age. This probably explains the dragon tales.
Any chance of exploring the faye / faeries / elves of ancient mythology in a future episode?
Okami was one of my favorite video games. They did such an amazing job representing Japanese mythology, from Princess Kaguya to Yamato-no-Orochi to Issun-Boshi
Same! It made a huge impact on me as a kid and still to this day I adore it. It's kinda wild hearing the actual stories it drew direct inspiration from and piecing together how many aspects were in the game
these deep dives are impressive!
Hurrah thankyou for part 2!
Dragons guarding some kind of treasure like the golden fleece comes up sometimes in Greek mythology, alongside the more traditional guarding of springs and other sacred places, but the Norse took the idea of the treasure hoarding dragon and ran with it.
48:10 small detail: Yes, "Nine" has a meaning in this context. It stands for a low, unspecified number - like "Seven" in other tales like the seven dwarfs for example...
Source: Paul Herrmann - Nordische Mythologie
Got a Spanish 'Gain' commercial before this, I now know I'm where I should be on TH-cam
Is this the guy from No Such Thing as a Fish?? I know every middle class person from Soutern England essentially sounds the same but still it sounds so much like him! That wasn't a diss by the way I love both shows.
Great video
Welsh Flag is the greatest. Greetings from Transnistria, our flag is second greatest.
These are fun. I learn something from you learning something. Lol So much time researching saved, and you relay it in a casual, relaxed way. I'm enjoying the series.
I love that they don't rush through the information--some things just can't be rushed! Sure, there are a lot of tangents, though they're germane to the topic.
Best to watch this before sleeping
No, Daniel and the Dragon is not a Tiamat story. The Tiamat story specifically cites her death as the creation of earth and sky. She's the equivalent of Cronus, the proto-god, not worshipped because in the myth, she's dead. It also does not say, as far as I'm aware, that the Babylonians were literally worshipping a dragon. It says they had a dragon. Until Daniel poisoned it.
Yeah, it describes the dragon as living, not a statue.
strangely enough ,,underneath the tor in glastonbury are 2 springs ..the red and white springs ..one known for its reddish water and the other one for its milky one ,,,i wonder if there is any connection here ?
One of the Laws of the Internet is that it is impossible to pronounce Norse words properly, a Norse expert will always magically appear and tell you you're wrong.
you said Quetzalcoatl, but my dumb brain heard pretzel tacos, and now I want tacos.
The breadth of information presented here is excellent. The details of specific regional dragon traditions is hit and miss, though.
it's bloody eye-opening to spot the etymology of romanian words for dragon, zmei/zmeu from the slavs, balaur from the albanians, dragon from the latin background of the language.
(zmeu also means kite, i have been living a lie for the better part of 20 years)
This was a really cool topic. I loved how deep you went with the lore and found comparisons across cultures. I was bummed that you spent so little time on the American continents though. You really only skimmed over a few of them. Did you know there's indigenous legends about giant river snakes all the way up in Canada? I'm hoping you'll revisit for a part 3 someday. 🙂
as an avid fan of priory of the orange tree, i so adore that reference
A ton of Naruto parallels in that first bit, concerning the Japanese.
iirc Thunderbird has a story of it fighting a whale, which sort of appears to be distant mutation of Chaoskampf of the Old World.
Hello thank you for this really excellent discussion extremely detailed and insightful. I would very much like to read more about Suzana (if I have spelled that correctly?) and many of the other characters mentioned could you contact me. Best wishes
great job so far! cheers
Dragons episode #3 perhaps? This was very informative... rants and all.
On stories drawing from mythology and religion: Naruto. A large part of the series backstory is a mirror of the interaction between Shintoism and Buddhism and how they came together to build modern Japan.
Later in the series there’s a fight between a character named Orochimaru, who’s inspired by the antagonist of an early 1800’s Japanese who novel, against a character called Itachi Uchiha, one of the characters who draws _heavily_ on Shintoism for inspiration.
One of Itachi’s powers is essentially becoming a giant and it’s called _Susanō_, and Orochimaru’s powers largely revolve around snakes. You get an eight-headed snake fighting a magical giant. Orochimaru, on top of being able to become an eight-headed snake, also had a double-edged straight sword, in the style of pre-katana Japanese swords. He called it _Kusanagi_.
I love this guys and I would say Quetz bones would be my guess
Nice'un lads; ye were thinkin' o'Maui, a pan-Polynesian hero/demigod figure. Hawaiki or Havaiki is th'mythological homeland o'all Polynesians. It's linguistically connective to Hawai'i (obvs), but...there's loads o'sites (Wikipedia bein' th'first stop) fer ya ta read up on. Aloha an'mahalo nui loa from O'ahu 🤙
Hey, If you haven't played Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice yet, that's got a great look at Hela and norse underworld mythology. And it's just genuinely beautiful as an experience.
This is wonderful research guys 🐇🎩🙏🏽
1:56:00 Hawaiki is Hawaii in the Moari dialect. And despite the distance is is reasonable because of the westerlies winds that move from east to west, and the Polynesian regularly sailed against these winds and would use them to drift back if they needed to. The Polynesians might have made it as far as south America aswell but that's more speculation based on pretty circumstantial stuff and how it is 100% possible to sail from Hawaii or even Taiwan, the original homeland of Polynesians, to the America's only using Polynesian sailing techniques and boats.
In short Polynesians were the best seafarers in all of history and never doubt their ability to get somewhere
If that drinking game existed, i think we all would be dead.
in the case of the story that mentioned the Hindu dieties: maybe the guy got punished for killing a dragon because he stepped above his station? May be it was not his job to kill the dragon.
India did have a caste system. maybe this is a cautionary tale of staying in one's caste?
just an idea. and if i have offended anyone with this question, my bad.
Hinduism is offensive to the dignity of human rights so I’d be more worried about that religion offending mankind than you offending some Hindu
I love the long episodes 😌
Excellent research. But I think there's little bit difference between serpent and dragon. Serpent are universal malevolent entity in almost all cultures. But dragon is more specific to Chinese & Norse mythology. Especially fire breathing. May be they represent a marauding & plundering army. Han Chinese were very afraid of attacking Huns.
Your drinking game would have had me totally sozzeld when you talk about dragons in Maori mythology.. interesting hearing your own storys filtered through a different cultural background
Enjoyed but sorry pronunciation was so funny
What a FANTASTIC draconian marathon! BRILLIANT. But you missed 1 European dragon. The Dragon of Rhodes.
During the occupation of Rhodes by the Hospitaller Order of St. John (SMOM)
There was a Provençal Knight Dieudonné de Gozon, who famously killed a dragon that had been terrorizing the people of Rhodes. Even though the Knight had been warned not to hunt & kill the dragon, by the Prince & Grand Master of the Order.
He set out and killed the the beast. Dieudonné became a hero to the people of Rhodes, and his heroic exploits with ridding Rhodes of this dangerous dragon, enabled him to be elected as Prince & Grand Master of the Order in 1346.
The Knight Dieudonné de Gozon was a real member of the Sovereign Military & Hospitaller Order of St. John. & within the Order & still on Rhodes, he is known as: Dieudonné the dragon slayer.
BTW, although Dieudonné actually did kill something, even if not an actual dragon, some believe it might have been a Nile crocodile, which might have been washed out to sea from Egypt.
I'm curious if the 9 steps is relevant to the Elapidae family of snakes that are so venomous as to be referred to as the 9 step snake. Where you will get 9 steps before death. The 9 steps just seems to clear a correlation to be accidental to me.
6:00 -- Aw Jeez guys, I was listening along and suddenly I remembered, there's also a reference to "Dragons" specifically in the Hagakure.
"In China there was a man who loved pictures of Dragons. He decorated his garments and furnishing with dragon designs to the disdain of others. The Dragon God was highly impressed with his deep interest. So, just once only he decided to show himself to the man as a real Dragon. Seeing him the man was shocked and fainted. A man who usually talks big is not
as good as his word if faced with a real situation."
^^ Neat-o! www.hyoho.com/Hagakure3.html
Forgive me if I missed it...but there is also a dragon figure in the Gnostic texts. The false creator of the universe and the true creator of mankind, Yaldebaoth, is a dragon figure. He has the body of a serpent and the head of a lion. He is pretty much equivalent to Yahweh in Judaic texts.
Late nights..this was good.
When you told the story about the turtle I instantly thought about dragon ball. Young goku helps the lost turtle return to the sea and turtle rewards him by bringing back master roshi who gives them magical gifts like the nimbus cloud and a magical ball the can summon a DRAGON!!!
You need to do a third one in which you explore what dragons symbolise (i.e. extreme emotions, overcoming them & weather) - ALL mythology is symbolic, or truth told in an entertaining way e.g. the Mauri myths about their geography were factually correct, just not explained in the usual boring Western way.
Interpretation is key when exploring topics like this as most tribal societies are polycentric, rather than egocentric. If you'd like to discuss further, let me know
2:31:30 -- SO YEAH, I find the Rainbow / Waterfall linkage intriguing, but I do also have to wonder, why no linkages mentioned between Dragons and Volcanoes then??
^^ To be honest, I expected that much more in the Pacific cultures.
Yo! Isn't it odd how much Loki and Ragadon's stories seem to match?
Mal-lev-o-lent not mallow-vent.
Number 9 in Norse Mythology:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Norse_mythology#:~:text=The%20number%20nine%20is%20also,that%20are%20supported%20by%20Yggdrasil.
Are you guys doing any research or are you just winging it?
I'm surprised u didn't mention Dragonslayer from 1980. Vermathraxx 😅😅😅😊❤
Athena and Artemis were virgin goddesses. Both start with a. And so does asexual and aromantic. I swear, we arent doing this on purpose.
I commented on "here be Dragons". About you not mentioning a dragon I grew up with. I'm a little bit older than you guys 1980 had Dragonslayer the movie with the blond guy yanoush from Ghostbusters 2..... Um and Ally Macbeal.... Jim Henson puppet vermathraxx was pretty cool even tho she doesn't talk m 😅😅😅😅. Maybe you will I listening now lol😅😅😅😅❤
20:00 Lots of western webnovelists have been using random bits of celtic, and slavic, mythology. It's just most of the time they aren't big enough authors for it to be notable.
1:55:46 Good effort but in Maori WH if pronounced like F so Taniwha is Tanifa. Also Hawaiki has nothing to do with Hawaii. DNA testing has placed Hawaiki to be Samoa. Also stick to History as Geographically Hawaii is nearly just as far from New Zealand as the Philippines and Taiwan (Which Incidentally is the route Ancient and ancestral Polynesians took, before settling on their respective Islands. According to Mitochondrial DNA) Maui is ubiquitous with Polynesians and his legend varies from Island to Island and culture to culture.
there are a few problems with siegfried being arminius.
1. in the nibelungenlied there is an actual real historical figure: attila (called etzel in the nibelungenlied). siegfried's widow (kriemhild) marries him after the death of siegfried.
2. siegfired's wife and her brothers (the nobility from burgundy) are christians. the whole feud between siegfried's wife and the queen of iceland (brunhild) is about who has the right to enter the _christian_ cathedral/church of worms (a city in germany and former capital city of old burgundy) first.
3. in the early first century (during the battle of teutoburg forest) the burgundians still lived _way_ further to the east - not even close to worms.
4. arminius was a cherusci, who also lived further to the east, while siegfried was born in xanten.
this means that siegfried must have lived (if he existed at all) in an already christianized germanic society, that already faced the huns - most likely the first half of the 5th century.
arminius on the other hand lived in a time when not even the romans were christianized; and also the huns weren't a thing yet - at least not for germanics in central europe. yes, arminius was killed by german 'nobility' (even his own relatives), _but_ that wasn't really that uncommon back in the days, when the germanic tribes mainly fought _each other_ and only occasionally turned against the romans (or celts). the idea, that arminius was or might have been a germanic hero is 'relatively new' (first ideas 500 years ago, when martin luther depicted him in an anti-roman way, that fitted his own anti-papal narrative; but the actual heroification 200-300 years ago during the rise of german nationalism). before that he basically was just a usurper who tried to lure other germanic tribes under his (or at least cherusci) rule. and the nibelungenlied is older than the herofication of arminius, so there wouldn't have been any reason to dedicate a heroic saga to arminus at all. all they have in common is that they're seen as german(ic) heroes *today.*
I think the chaoskampf wasn't really relevant, they were more of a primordial serpent. Dragons really start with Greek drakons, which evolve from big snakes into demonic firebreathers by the high middle ages.
There's character in the Mahabharata that is also invunerable except for a small patch.