Worst Off-Road Mistakes part 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2024
- Worst Off-Road Mistakes part 2
Part 1 here: • Worst Off-Road Mistake...
0:00 intro
0:50 MEDIC
2:01 Hills OFF-ROAD
4:29 Asking for HELP is weakness???
5:40 FIRE, FIRE, FIRE!!
7:21 WHERE DID HE GO??
9:43 BAD ANGLE BAD REACTION
11:40 STEEP HILLS and GEAR CHANGE
14:13 ABANDON VESSEL
15:25 WORST YOU HAVE SEEN
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PART 1 here: th-cam.com/video/YUseH6tRKLw/w-d-xo.html
You should also talk about the different types of extinguishers and their uses.
Me personally and I've seen it first hand watching people drowning,seat belts off and always roll down the windows for WATER CROSSING ONLY,just incase u need to bail out,still a scary scene in my mind,yes we do love our cars but a life is irreplaceable,cheers from borneo for another great vid ronny🍻
One for going over blind hills, pip your horn. It is very good for letting people know someone else is near.
Agree 100 percent. I often do this around blind, narrow corners and hills, as well as drive them with caution. There are a lot of idiots out there ripping around the bush.
G'day Ronny, Seat belts on mate.
Another mistake IMO is not having your headlights or running lights On whether your off or on road.
Recently used my fire extinguisher on another person's 4wd from when they have topped up their engine oil and have not tightened oil cap properly, oil has spilled onto exhaust manifold an started fire. Fire extinguisher came in very handy....
Good vid, must have taken a while to put together. As for fire extinguishers, carry two, one is usually not enough.
How many fires do you have?
Gvm!!
Seat belts off and windows down when driving through or over water. It was drilled into me from driving on frozen lakes and rivers, always make it easy and fast to get out when dealing with water.
Absolutely correct. I don’t know where this seat belt on business was fabricated. It’s always to be off & the window down incase you need to bail fast. It’s a water crossing, not a dodgy high up bridge crossing. If someone be wants to hit deeper water at 100kmh then they have other issues to worry about.
Going to Teerwah to hoon on the beach. I’ve at seen a fully rolled prado from doughnuts and a ford ranger on its side with fishtail skids leading up to it. Sometimes i wonder if the extra weight from the p plates was the straw that broke the camels back, causing them to tip over.
I’d say that extra weight of the P plates is 💯 the main factor
@@Ronny_Dahl Yep saw a p plater in tassie doing doughnuts in some mud here in Tassie almost flipped it as they lost control and hit a patch of rocks. So i agree the P plates was the main factor.
Great vid. I was the last rig in a small convoy. The person in front of me was new to wheeling. At a fork in the road the group went left and the person in front of me didn't wait for me. I went right. I tried to contact them on the radio but no luck (CB's). Fortunately I was very familiar with the area and I knew that both trails ended up merging in about 8 Kilometers. It was near the end of the day and we all met up at the exit so it was all good but it's important to make sure the person behind you sees you when the trail diverges.
I feel this, i lead quite often but I’m constantly telling the rest of the convoy to mark the corner for the next guy and no one seems to listen/ do it. I’m just waiting for the day where I loose someone
In the club I am in we instil in everyone that each is responsible for the vehicle behind them. That means not just ensuring that they get the turns right but that they have not fallen too far behind or broken down. Wait as required, do a radio check if warrented, and don't be afraid of getting left behind yourself - because the person in front of you is similarly responsible for you. It works well.
Another great vid Ronny. Belts on for sure.
Biggest mistake I've seen is a driver thinking he could abandon ship when it all went wrong. He ended up in the passenger footwell, and I was dangling out of my belt above him. When I released the belt he got my knees in his chops, which he deserved.
Driving too fast. This has got to be the biggest rookie mistake. Guaranteed way to break things.
I can confirm this. I go out with heaps of beginners and they always think you’re not cool if you use lowrange, way better control in low range and better time to react to things
Agree. What does not help is this notation of "send it' or "Full send". Look at the lines & pick the right line & look after the track. Brains, Lines & low range.
that and having to make it first go. especially in sand. If you are not going to make it, dont bury the throttle, just stop reverse and try again. Recently took a first timer in a awd volvo on 20's on a very soft beach, did he make it everywhere first time, no, but we didnt get bogged and didnt do any damage.
My friends and I are new to 4 wheeling, I have one mage who just “sends it” on tracks and pits the pressure on everyone else, pier pressure is one mistake people make, my car is more important than impressing some goof who will wind up with multiple repairs needed
this is a common US mistake because a lot of people my age and younger, think off-roading is driving as fast as they can through mud pits in the backyard. then they get on an actual trail and try it and it doesn’t end well
An important note with extinguishers is to use them for the right kind of fire, know how to use one and if you have a dry chemical powder extinguisher, mount it sideways. If mounted vertically, the powder can settle and compress at the bottom and not discharge correctly.
Regardless of how you store it you need to take it out and shake it every few months to break up the powder.
@@errhka It gets shaken on every bump ;)
Agreed my friend. Med kits and extinguishers are the two most common things the average person don't store in their vehicle. I make sure every vehicle has a med kit on it. I've had a vehicle fire once. Had a fuel line rupture and dump fuel on my exhaust manifold. That was scary! I had my fire extinguisher handy and it was the 5lb version. 5lbs was barely enough. I now carry two just because I prefer to keep my vehicle. If anything, I'll have it for myself, but also in case I happen to be at the right place at the right time for someone else.
To react to the worst off road mistakes I have the best offroad advice :
"remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer"
VERY informative and cracked me up !!!!!! Torbs needs to be on blood thinners lol.
I would highly recommend a Fire Blanket as well the extinguisher, a 1.8m x1.2m is pretty cheap, never goes out of date or leaks and as long as it is not covered in fat or oil can be re-used. Handy in a lot of situations. Also watch a video or read up on how to properly use a fire extinguisher and blanket. Its a quick and simple thing to learn but very valuable.
That’s some good advice mate. 👍
Fire blankets are a great idea, they take up next to no space when folded up, and being reusable is a huge thing when remote.
We just got back from a Jeep Jamboree and each group had about 15 Jeeps in it. One of the rules was when the trail split you were to wait for the Jeep behind you before proceeding. You wouldn’t think with 15 rigs following each other, especially with the dust each rig was stirring up, that people would get lost. To our amazement it happened all day. At least 5 or 6 times a day you would hear someone on the radio asking which way to go. They would have to identify which rig they were in and hopefully the person in front of them would realize their error and direct them. If not, you sometimes had someone closer to the front of the group jump on the radio and try and direct them. But, they had already taken a couple more turns! Let the confusion begin!! It’s such a simple concept…….🤷♀️
Biggest/Most Common mistake I see is not asking for a spotter or more frustrating seeing someone on an obstacle with 3 or 4 people trying to spot someone and they are giving conflicting guidance.
Amazingly, I had this happen to me at an overland event trail run immediately after a stop. The rig behind me was almost touching my bumper when we started again, and I didn't even get into my car until I saw their driver getting into his seat. I started my car and after a minute or two of waiting, slowly drove off. The stop was at a fork, but there were no other forks for several klicks. Well I dutifully waited at the next corner, and darned if those dudes didn't manage to get lost instantly. I don't know if they were high or not paying attention, but somehow they managed to instantly go wrong the second I drove off from the stop, and they never figured out their mistake lol well, luckily the trails eventually converged so they made it back. Still unreal how they managed to screw up instantly.
Also remember the fire extinguisher is not just for putting a fire out but for helping you get out of the fire you may just need it to tame the fire a bit so you can push through it to safety
Awesome advice Ronny! Great vids as always
1:11 the money shot hahaha
He didn't swallow and yelled NOOO! Hero .
Morning, love your vid’s…
The worst I have seen was a P plater with Daddy’s 4WD, at Lancelin, he went up a sand hill, could not make it up. So he decided to try turn around (full lock right) Half way up the sand hill, he rolled the 4wd 6 times before landing at the bottom of the hill.
Fortunately Everyone was ok in the 4WD.
In NZ we always cross rivers with seat belts off and windows down... but most of our rivers are rocky on the bottom, and seem to be flowing faster than the ones I see in Australian 4WD conditions.
Clever Ronny makes part II videos a year later so people have forgotten about or didn't watch the part I, and have to go back and watch it ;-)
Happened to me...have to watch part 1 again 🙂
Big brain shit. I'm going to watch part 1 again.
Same here.
Another great vid Ronny 👍
This week I installed a fire extinguisher in my Sons 60 series with custom bracket & in my 105 with Kap Industries bracket.
Both fitted front of passenger seat for easy access.
These may save someone else's vehicle ,caravan, camper etc.
Darn good advice. Thank you!
You guys are hilarious. Ive watched so many videos Im starting to think in an Australian accent 😆
Great to see you and Torbs collaborate Ronny.
Russell coight eat ya heart out😆 another great vid mate👍
Awesome vid again👍👍
Lake Havasu ☀️ AZ USA
Always a hoot to watch you and Tawbs Ronny. 👍💎
Great video. Your run away truck reminded me of the move The Gods Must Be Crazy
Marking turns is one method and raises a good point. My tip is that each vehicle in the convoy stops at the turn off until the next vehicle catches up. Don’t drive on until your mate arrives. That next vehicle doesn’t proceed until the next vehicle arrives etc etc. Almost impossible to get lost when you apply those rules to all vehicles. Tail end Charlie’s should always be in radio contact with the lead vehicle to give updates. Hard to go wrong. Cheers Ronny
I ride motorbikes and the rider behind the lead rider marks the turn until the tail end Charlie rides through. It means everyone gets the responsibility of ensuring the group remains together, rather than relying on the same guys all the time.
Thanks for the tips.
If you have any doubt about a trail section you're about to cross... WALK IT FIRST! We're in a very wet location and after a rain a trail can look dry but have inches mud under it. Combine this with an uphill section and it could easily lead to a disastrous backwards slide to the bottom of the hill. I always knew this rule and the one time I did not follow it I just about had that scenario happen. Luckily I was able to direct myself backwards into a small tree that just barely stopped us. I stayed in the vehicle while my son blocked the tires. We had nothing to winch to and in that spot a winch would not have helped anyway. I always carry a heavy set of chains for snow / mud, those went on and we safely made it down. I always tell people, pound for pound the best off-road gear I have ever bought was a good set of chains.
no belt river crossing .. good belly laugh with a few scenarios on a Sundy morning, but do appreciate the seriousness . great stuff
Where useful and informative....seems very basics but can leads to disasters. Thank you for sharing
We were driving the "Whoop-de-Do's" between Merty Merty Station and Cameron Corner when I drove over a crest to find some clown had parked on the road, just over a crest. Change of underwear all around and I didn't know I was capable of that swerve and recover manoeuvre. If I had been a road train...
Oh, and we were towing around two tonnes.
Thanks Ronny
I was on a 4x4 trail going up a mountain. The vehicle behind me stalled. The driver wanted to restart the vehicle and thus put the clutch in without pumping the brakes first for good stopping power. The vehicle rushed backward towards a 150m+ cliff and was stoped by a dead tree stump on the diff with the back of the vehicle hanging off the edge. Very close call that could have been avoided if proper precautions were taken. This caused a two-hour recovery and four anchored cruisers to winch the Fortuner back up onto the edge.
Another funny intro which had me giggling 😂😂
Great video guys and might I add oscar winning performances or at least nominated for dramatic realism...... 🤨🤨
Thanks ronny and torbs great content for us beginners to watch.
This was in 2007, my Dad's mate was taking his brand-new chopped 100 series (!HD-FTE) for a maiden trip at Levuka 4WD Park in Urbenville, NSW. He decided simply not to check the depth of a bog hole before driving in, even though the thing had little sign of use (You'd think a sign of it being a challenge). But of course, this thing was a beast for the day and nothing would bog it.
Anyway, drowned it up to the window sills, hydrolocked the engine and got towed out by a Ford Courier. That's what I call a bad day.
As for carrying fire extinguishers, I carry 2 when normal daily driving off road i carry 3. One 2kg in the rear cargo area, one 1kg in the rear passenger area, and third one 1kg driver side door pocket.
I would add "Know How To Use Your First Aid Kit" to the list. I've known way too many people with nice First Aid kits that don't have a clue how to do anything other than apply a band-aid.
Good advice Ronny. I reckon if you are heading to dunes or on a one way 150 kilometres line there should be an entry log be it online or a board of some sort stating that you are in the area or you'll be on the line between 14:00 hrs to 15:00 hrs. This could be posted online a day before so that people could check it while they are coming in from the other side and prepare ahead. I know it's a bit of work but could save lives.. keep up the good work buddy.
Hi Ronny, all the way from Cape Town, South Africa. I'm so glad I stumbled on your channel, working through all your videos. I'm new 4x4 scene, bought a 2018 Hilux 2.4 GDS DC 4x4 and keen to setup as a tourer - thank you for the nice and informative way you present and share your knowledge - may your channel grow ad may you have many happy and safe adventures!
Good points, particularly the seatbelt question. I offroad in a Dodge M37CDN (Canadian version). I put a 4 point seatbelt in it. When offroading, I keep all 4 belts on unless I'm crossing water, or very slow crawling on rocks. Then I ditch the shoulder belts, but keep the lap belt on. As for a fire extinguisher, I carry 2. One in the cab, across the front of the seat box, and a second in a storage box in the back. The second one has a spot to mount it on the driver's side front fender while actually offroading. Easy to see, easy to grab...which is why it goes back in the storage box when back in "civilization", as it just seems to be too tempting for people to permanently borrow it, and anything else on the exterior that can be a quick grab.
De bon conseille pour l'off road il faut toujour surveiller la securite😎
Fire extinguisher, fire blanket and a seat belt cutter / glass hammer are all within my reach these days after struggling to pull someone out of a rolled vehicle that caught fire a few years ago.
I've got the first aid kit in a nice bright red bag hanging from the front passenger seat and a fire extinguisher in the driver's front door pocket on my truck. It's a big pocket so I can put a decent-sized extinguisher.
That's a good point about driving on an incline too. I've never really thought about it like that especially since I try to avoid that situation.
Waiting for part 3!
A mate of mine was driving up behind me way to fast on a choppy beach with a bank on his left, another 4 was coming towards him which he didn’t see until I had passed it, he had no where to go, choosing to take in the bank… he nearly rolled it. Combination of too fast, and panicking…
JMHO. I always keep the belt on offroad. It just gives me better control. Sometimes I will just lap belt it in super slow conditions, however always on.
Good tips thanks Ronny. I think it’s also important to keep an up to date first aid kit and also know how to use the things like the snake bite kit. Need to know how to act in a situation like that. I’ve saved my Ute before with a little fire extinguisher. A 12v wire shorted out in the tray after heavy corrugations and started burning everything from the inside out. A little extinguisher saved my poor Ute that day! It’s a legal requirement in Europe to have one, so why not?
I find the 1kg fire extinguishers fit perfectly in most door water bottle holders. I have 1 either side!
See post above if they are dry chemical. Store lying down. Foam is ok.
Nice
I beep the horn before going around blind corners on single lane tracks. As for changing gears on steep hills not my problem in an Auto, but i used to own manuals and everyone should learn to change gears without a clutch, can be done and i mean properly without crunches!
It has to be drivers overestimating their vehicles capabilities and consequently drowning their 4bee at various rivers or beaches which require water navigation. . . . . Rainbow Beach qld comes to mind
I'm a minute into it and the red stuff to the face automatically got me to click the thumbs up lmao!
watched old mate roll his jimny with the dogs and the missus in it, he was to small for the ruts and got his left wheels in the right hand side rut and his right wheels went up the bank on the right and then he rolled. He should of winched after trying 10+ times.
seat belts always off when i do river xings, in case i need to get out fast, to attach recovery strap or winch ect, I dont see the benefit of having them on unless u hit something under the water and it u do shouldnt be going that fast to worry u anyway
You think you would get hurt if you jogged straight into a wall? That is 5-7mph or around 10kph.
Plenty fast to break your nose or knock teeth out if you hit the wheel. Belts on, always.
Worst mistake I've seen: dude got off camber, wanted to winch himself back level. Hooked winch to a rock that was not secure. I told him as much, he said "I've been doing this longer than you've been alive." Okay... he starts winching, the rock comes loose, hits his truck at the front quarter panel. Dude wouldn't even look at me when I offered to help him.
Hello, we needs PART 3 here..
Hello again, as always a nice way to communicate, I love those places and 4x4s.
Too bad that I "live" in a city, surrounded by streets and buildings.
Greetings from what's left of Italy.
P.S. (It is possible to be accepted in Austarlia, I could do the personal Human handbrake puller!).
worst mistake i have done! Night time river crossing solo got stuck without having a good spot to winch from,No celphone reception, had too run back to the nearest town about 5 k away to find help! all went well at the end but could have been super bad ! lesson well learn
easiest warning when driving in single lane mountain roads, USE the Horn, beep beep, the louder the better, thats what trucks use here in mindanao philippines.
*do not rely on your handbrake when driving a toyota, somewhat very true
Good video
@Julia - 𝙾𝚙𝚎𝚗 𝙼𝚢 PROFILE very informative. Your a spam account
There is one thing that I’ve seen Ronny do regularly & that is leaving your window half down. If you crash with the window half down and your in a crash you may wear the edge of that window when you are thrown around. Was advised that there are multiple lives lost per year at a driver training corse a few years back
You can use a can of softdrink of beer as an extinguisher, shake the crap out of it and spray it. Like Jack Absalom did. Or use a pressure sprayer with water in it can work.
Case in point for the fire extinguishers. Old mates Ford Ranger nearly going up in flames on 4WD24/7's latest Tele track vid due to shitty battery wiring in the canopy. The extinguishers saved the day and he was able to continue on, without, the vehicle was lost for sure.
torb's needs to see a doctor, don't think blood is that saucy
I reckon he smashes that many sauce covered meat pies this is just how his blood is now..
@@pewpew2400 haha
@@NISMO-OFFROAD wasn't sure you'd be over here on a good content creator's channel!
Neglecting to bring enough beers. Can really cause a panic and irrational hoarding.
The biggest mistake I see all the time when I’m out with beginners is they think it’s not cool to use low range, everything should be done in high range. Next would be people that ride breaks down hills, i’ve seen people lose their backend from holding the brakes on loose gravel decent and usually they panic and push the brakes harder
Can’t really say everything should be done in low range when you literally then talk about people riding breaks down hill, low range is perfect going downhill, put it in a gear for the speed you want to idle at and cruise down using the engine to keep your speed down, then if you need it cause your in low range power as soon as you need it and still in control of speed. Low range is very good in a lot of situations (not every situation) just have to know when to use it and when not too
@@johnxander6305 He said some people think it ISN'T cool to use 4Low and that they stay in 4Hi when they should be in 4Low. Eg staying in 4Hi and riding the brakes when they should have swapped to 4Low and idled down.
@@KarlEller ahh I read that wrong sorry mate, now don’t I look silly
If you need to change gears going up or down a steep hill in a manual you can always do an emergency stop. You just plant your foot on the brake with no clutch so it stalls in gear then select the gear you want and start it whilst in gear with no clutch whilst releasing the brake. So it basically rolls forward or backwards as you start. Safer than relying on your brake while changing through the gears even if it’s only for a matter of seconds when the car is running.
A few months ago Tim Bates did a video on emergence stopping in a manual, uphill and downhill. Well worth watching.
th-cam.com/video/hWj6IBE5ADY/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/vm4CHgHq6QQ/w-d-xo.html
Another tip if you have one for steep descents especially if slippery or rutted is have your rear locker engaged
Over here in NZ, in winter, don't park overnight with your hand brake on if you've been through water. The frosts here will freeze your brakes on and you won't move until they thaw. If it's minus 6 or 7 in the morning it'll take ages.
I'd take the same approach I do with water crossings with a heavy rucksack. Belt undone, you've got to wriggle free of the bag so you can swim properly if you go over. I do know of friends who had an epic to save a guy who was tied to his bag and under it. Don't fancy that with a lump as large as a vehicle. However, I like the idea of keeping it on as a delay to focus on the passengers first though. A belt cutter handy near by sounds smart, that's why kayakers carry knives to cut loose of any snagged lines if they go over so they can swim safely. I have no experience so this is a thought process rather than bitter experience.
Biggest mistake I've seen : River crossing without judging the current and vanishing in the river along with the vehicle.
hi mate love your work Q is that a second skin you have on the hilux
Rhinohide see the Luxy build it has an episode on it in details
Another well known channel recently had a fire in the canopy while in the Cape...
Getting bogged deep in sand at low tide too near the water.
Entering water crossings without gauging or walking it first, not just depth but speed too. Too many people have driven crossings that are either too deep or too fast, or both, and have lost their vehicles because of it
Hey Ronny
I think we should all carry a fire extinguisher. Some countries won't register a vehicle if there is not one on board.
I seen people who only had a phone app for mapping with no paper map back up. Lost the signal and lost the map
I was on a day trip with a few other vehicles to a waterfall and there’s a track to get to the top of the waterfall and it’s not a hard track at all but in my case it’d been raining quite a lot and I was driving up and I slid into a washout on the edge of the track and it was a big drop to the bottom I nearly lost the vehicle. Luckily after 5 hours of winching and trying to recover the vehicle we got it out with a broken tailight and a pretty badly scratched door. I’ve been 4wding for around 5-6 years now and this was the scariest moment I’ve been in by far
BIG mistake everyone makes is not drying the brakes after a water crossing. Had a mate lose traction going up the next hill, couldn't stop rolling backwards and the car tipped on it's side.
...greetings from Germany!! 👍
GREETINGS from 'OZ' !!!
The Seatbelt thing... Generally probably yes but it is not a blanket yes for all times. It will depend on type of water crossing and other factors (depth'/speed of flow, etc) that will all need to be taken into account and if travelling in a group - spoken about.
Would tilting your sand flag forward make any difference cresting over hills?
I see a lot of people saying they are going so slow they are allowed to be lazy and don't need belts. 10mph is a fast run for an adult male (6 minute mile). I think these same people would be unwilling to run directly into a wall or their steering wheel because they intuitively know they would get injured. If you aren't wearing a belt your only plan is hope, hope that you don't stop abruptly. My take is if I think I might need to get out in a hurry, roll down my window and unlock my doors, but keep my belt on. If something does happen it raises my chances of being unhurt so I can make the most rapid escape.
as an ex rally driver only release your seatbelt when completely stopped & your vehicle has the handbrake on.
To stop the bleeding,heat up a peace steel red hot and apply to open wound .
I would recommend, especially for older 4B's, get the belts checked, I was in an accident in an old shorty Patrol, was a write off, still hit my head into the windscreen and still with enough force to break the windscreen, if you are moving, Lights on and belt up no matter what. Ps. nobody was injured in the accident apart from the nice bump to my forehead.
Hi Ronny Oscar from Italy 🇮🇹 first of all congratulations for your channel!! I don’t won’t to go off topic but could you suggest me a good air compressor? Thanks mate in advance!!
always on with seat belts however situational awareness in river crossing will also be a mandatory thing which people don't figure on with fast flowing water i would say off, as to try and take something off in a panic will likely get you killed as everything will bind up in a stressed out scenario
@Sherri T[A]P Me!! To Have [S]EX With Me 1 thing to add you need to service the fire extinguishers you carry every year or so as the gas used spray the contents fails
Seat belts off, windows down, doors unlocked for deep or fast moving water. If you're going to try to cross something stupid deep drive in slow with the doors open so the vehicle doesn't float, especially with wagons.
An offroad/onroad mistake that I have personally witnessed and preached to my son to avoid: Showing off. Think long and hard before attempting to impress your friend(s) if it is something that your smart grandma would consider dangerous or stupid. She is wise and you never second guess your grandma. Consider the rewards over the failures before attempting some stupid stunt. At best you'll be getting some cheers and some high fives if you are successfu, but quickly forgotton. At worst, you wreck the vehicle or someone will be injured or killed and this will be remembered forever.
WISE.
Which frequency/channel should you be monitoring or transmitting on travelling remotely?
Using scan function best IMO.
In Australia, Chanel 10 is the common 4WD channel, 18 is caravans, and 40 is trucks. But especially if you're remote, Scan is going to be your best bet.
For the sand dune desert crossings pays to disconnect a abs sensor so your breaks actually stop you when you really need to stop 😂
my bigest mistake :igot manual geer suzuki jimny.. i tried to shift up from 1st low to 2nd gear low while crosing a deep deep river... & clutch lost truction i stucked in the deepest spot water got inside... realy realy bad day... Dont use cluch while river rossing...
seat belts are on... always..
Not biggest but most often I see off-road mistakes are at the Lancelin sand dunes. People with full family in their car launching it over the back of razor-backs because they don’t check it first, not scouting the terrain before you decide to have some fun, checked where the are etc. At least you don’t have to worry about the monster bus flattening you any more, though that’s a shame!