CPM-3V Toughness Does it matter?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ค. 2024
- CPM-3V Toughness Does it matter?
After testing a lot of different knife steel types I realize that it probably doesn't matter. Theres too many variables to draw a conclusion based on hitting a knife with a piece of wood. When it comes to steel toughness, everything matters, even the surface finish. An average Joe, using basic sub 5 figure equipment in his garage, isn't going to be able to make accurate measurements concerning steel toughness.
When it comes to choosing a steel for a certain knife heat treatment matters more than anything else. I can easily heat treat certain types of steel and give them the properties I want. Where as other types (3v ,s7 ,4v, m4 etc.) can NOT be easily heat treated. Even using a "precise" heat treating oven designed for knife making. UNLESS you have a hardness tester. Ill be doing a follow up video to this one explains why.
White Bone Knives bevel jig www.whiteboneknives.com
About⬇️
Hi, Im Alex, im a knife maker and TH-camr, based out of southern Pennsylvania and my youtube channel is Outdoors55. This channel started as an outdoor backpacking channel, but quickly grew into a knife/ knife making channel. Everything I do on my channel is family friendly. I primarily focus on knife / knife making videos but occasionally throw in something different. Thank you for watching!😀
#knifemaking #knife #knifemaker #outdoors55
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Just as a point of properties :
-strength is resistance to deformation (bending, prying, etc.), this is applying a force essentially very slow were the steel has time enough to deform (move) internally if necessary
-toughness is resistance to fracture (impact), this is applying a force so fast that the steel can not deform fast enough to absorb energy and so it will crack if necessary (if over loaded)
Outstanding work, all I could think when the tip broke was Damn, that's some nice grain structure. I'd recommend testing corrosion resistance as well which should be easy enough. Temper 5 or so types of steal. Leave one set outside (because people forget stuff) put one set in a pair of jeans with a brine soaked ham (to represent edc) and leave one set in a bedside drawer (because you always need that knife until a better one comes along) walk away for a month and see what you come back too. Just my two cents. A great video boss!
Well done! You’ve gotten quite sophisticated in your knife builds compared to some of your earlier attempts. Very cool. Can’t wait to see the next step.
Doing great real world testing man. Congrats on raising the standards of your knife making skills and sharing your experience on the journey !
Appreciate the effort you put into these, Alex. Glad you’re back.
Basically one of the best knife maker channels there is. Period.. plus amazing information with cutting humour. Thanks Outdoors
Man, that's so cool you make your own knives.
Thank you for the time and effort! I love these real world comparisons that others don’t talk about
Enter the land of diminishing returns... does the added cost equal the benefit?
But you have already reached this conclusion
Great Job Alex
Once you leave the land of decent budget products you always enter the land of diminishing returns. You pay a shit-ton for that last little bit of quality. For the price of one Porsche 911 you can buy four Toyota Camrys.
profd65 what a shitty comparison. A Porsche 911 is a sports car that is beautifully manufactured, mid engine borderline super car. Compared to your grand mother’s Toyota Camry. Just because you cannot afford one does not mean it’s not worth the price
@@Connor-wf2zn
I didn't say that a Porsche 911 isn't better than a Toyota Camry, shit for brains, but it's not four times as good as one. If you looked at cars as mere tools instead of as status symbols or props in hip hop videos, you would easily see this. And my ability or inability to afford a 911 has no affect on my thinking. Let's talk about what I can afford: I have a guitar I paid $800 for, and it definitely isn't twice as good as a $400 guitar--I know, because I also own a guitar I paid $400 for, and I've played many other guitars that cost $400, and many other guitars that cost $800 or more.
@@profd65 3V, 4V, Vanadis 4 Extra etc steels, actually ARE four times better than common 1095 etc steels. they have 4 times the edge retention, 4 times more toughness, more stain resistant and so on....Not ot mention the better fit and finish, better gandle ergos, better sheaths etc you get with a more expensive knife. It's simple, you get what you pay for.
@@greekveteran2715 It's simple, you're wrong. A Spyderco Delica isn't twice as good as an Ontario Rat with D2 steel. It might not be better than it at all. A Bark River Aurora II isn't three times as good as a Mora Garberg. I'd rather have the Aurora but no way it's three times as good. Now, the Benchmade Puukko comes in CPM-3V and costs more than the Garberg, but it probably is worth the extra money you pay. But the Puukko only costs $127.50 (versus $89.99 for the Garberg). The difference in price isn't huge, but the little bit extra you pay gets you superior steel and Benchmade's awesome warranty.
As for CPM 3V being four times tougher than high carbon 1095--I very seriously doubt it. If your 1095 knife isn't robust enough for you, just make the blade a little thicker. The Becker BK2 is made out of 1095 Cro-Van, and that thing is a tank. Good luck trying to break it.
The 1095 will definitely rust so you need to look after it. The1095 won't hold an edge long, but it's easy to sharpen.
Thank you for taking the time to make and test various blade steel. Your information is a reliable resource.
Always great to watch. Thanks for inviting us to your continued education.
Back after blowing my face up 👍 been so damn busy lately that I can sit and catch up on your vids for a while now 👌🤣 can't wait honestly. Stay awesome Alex 👍
I've noticed 3V completely changes when cryo''ed in LN2 for 2 hours,
Then hardened even more when Cryo'ed a second time over night, between tempers.
It only gets worse on belts.
I’m a simple man. I see your videos I watch and hit like. Please keep the content coming!
As for the steel if you’re making the knife for you I say make it out of the toughest and best material possible, extra work be damned!
Time spent, but not wasted. Very much appreciated. Carry on.
You know it's going to be a good video when the c-clamps and angle iron come out. Great video as always. 👍
Re: edge retention. If you want to eliminate a *little* bit of the subjectivity of your cardboard cutting, go have a look at Pete’s data on the Cedric and Ada channel. He has a link to his spreadsheets in almost every video description now; just pick any of his recent videos and look in the description. I didn’t see that he tested 1084, but given that he’s done just about every other steel(!) you can do some interpolation.
Ive wondeted if 3v is so tough then why are most knives made from it crow bar thick. I think id like yours in a 4 inch wood handled version.
Mainly marketing and the whole “tacticool” factor.
Another great video my friend, still wish I could buy one of your knives. Congrats on 100k+ subscribers, enjoyable and informative video. I saw blackbeard project video do a place quench with compressed air was really interesting. Love the new shop and new equipment looks great.
great job,appreciate all your hard work ,3v is awesome steel but then again so is 1080 and some of the others you've used
I love Bark Rivers 3V I have 3 blades in it. You’re right it’s hard to work with & they have a company that water jets and grinds the primary bevel, then another company that does the HT so it’s easier for them because they just do the final grinding and apply handles (which is still a lot of work). Have you considered elmax, S35VN, M390, Cru-Wear is a great steel.
Great informative video! I’m subbing, one of best knife channels on TH-cam!
Very interesting brothee! I Truley enjoy watching your videos man. Keep doing what you do man
Another great video! Thanks for taking the time to make them!
Thanks for all the effort! Tip test made me think it would have broken after first plunge-pry if it had scales you’d been able to grip it and rip it.
I like knifes because of their diversity or properties and uses. I rarely only have access to 1 knife that requires me to be super picky about that knife being perfect for every task. I do like balanced usefulness in a EDC knife, but life is full of compromises. Choose the ones that fit your needs.
As to that tip breaking I think as you already know I'm sure that was more blade geometry than failing steel . At 76 now i think the whole super steel quest is necessary for some my self no . I have zero problems with sharping a blade every now and then .most everything I own is either 440 -c , 01 ,1095 ,and my favorite is 1056 . I am not a small knife guy and most knives tend to lean toward the Bowie style it's my thing and I love them all .Thanks for all your hard work in looking for that perfect material but for me it's cost I simply can't see paying hundreds for a knife it's just not necessary for me but for some it is the quest for the newest thing and good for them it's there fun in life so be it go for it . Happy trails stay safe in the shop. Get some cement board over the insulation paper behind your oven and above . Stay safe
IMO the 3V still belongs to the category of "reasonable" super blade steels, not that crazy expensive with tons of Mo and V in it. Now the knife makers are simply promoting stuffs like M340 to get higher pricing on the product AND ignoring proper treatments to explore the potentials. Very educational video!
What was the power bill for your oven on that build?
Thanks for the education lesson...again. You truly love your craft.
Men you sold me this knife concept like 4 vids ago, i want one!!!
Awesome video. My stress relief videos. Looking forward to the next one.
Thanks for so much work and the results on your video's. Which is the best steel.
3V is a great steel, but the heat treat as you show is a pain. I used wet silicon carbide belts to grind it after HT so I didn't have to keep dunking it in water. Stuff is totally remarkable, but my heat treater used an air blast to quench. That plate quench is probably why the tip broke. The heat treat is why it is very expensive. It is a very shock resisting steel, that's why it's tougher, the very high vanadium content makes a lot of V carbide which is harder than tungsten carbide. Any of the high vanadium steels will hold an edge very well, better than any other steel just about.
Great job on the heat treatment .
I doubt I'll ever nee to know all of this, (Can't afford the equipment for that metal) but thanks any way, enjoyed the video...your other videos have helped this old duffer much, Thanks...I don't know where you live but I love the woods in the background of the burn barrel.
These videos were awesome. I really want to get a great EDC fixed blade knife, but I'm so behind the times on what's out there. So I'm really glad to see your videos and I hope to see more, to try to figure out what I want in a fairly small EDC knife and how long I would have to save up for it. I may be disabled, but I'm not dead. Just low on money. Lol 🤣
I have love knives since I was 10 and learn the quickest way to lose interest in knives is to never have a good quality one, to see what a quality made knife feels like and what it can do. These new knives are just amazing. 😲
Go with Mora for a edc fixed blade.
They are cheap enough so you don't stop yourself from actually using it in the "wrong" way, that's the point and why ALL working people use them in Sweden.
Very good video, I agree anything more would require a very well regulated testing protocol.
3 year old video but it just popped up for me.
This video gave me a newfound respect for Mark Johnson of Vulcan Knives.
He has built me two folders using Rex121 and a few more for other people.
He had never even heard of the steel until I asked him if he was up to the challenge of building me a folder using it.
He said it was quite a bit more difficult to work with than his usual 20cv but after watching this video I think he was downplaying how difficult it was, since Rex is a bit harder than 3v.
If anyone is curious, both knives he made tested at 70 and 70.5hrc!
Good to see you again...I miss your content :)
Great work ! I really like my TOOR darter with 3V a lot !
In regards to toughness, one thing to consider is long term use. Ed Schempp was one of the first makers for example to note that in Bladesports, a lot of steels can easily handle one competition, or even multiple but after awhile they will suffer catastrophic failure. This is why he preferred simple steels because they will outlast the life time of a user.
I have seen knives last for days, even weeks of use and then suddenly just suffer gross failure, it is just an accumulation or growth of small micro-cracks. So even IF a steel can take a certain amount of use for low cycles (
@Star Gazer1212 Wood performance is a very different thing in many respects. It is mainly push cutting, and you want an edge which ideally wears very slow, no chipping surely. Try maybe W1, Super Blue, M2 or M4, make sure you get someone who hardens it in a sensible manner for wood cutting.
@Star Gazer1212 No, that's a decent steel, but the manufacturer will matter more.
thank you very much for this informative video. sound, video quality is at peak.
I have the SRK in 3v and I'm now resisting the urge to put some abuse to it. Good video, and I think the answer is the cost in time and effort depends on the efficiency in manufacturing. Heat treating 1 blade at a time vs Heat treating 100 blades at a time or having a constant revolving 1 blade on one blade off to the next step assembly type production makes it much more plausible but again. That's not the small or custom knife makers forte until they are a little more advanced and established and even then. I'd say it's a flagship metal although i'm curious how polished the steel will get as my SRK is fairly dull and more of a grey color than it is silver.
I've never seen this method of quenching before, thanks for demonstrating it. You did it in 3 seconds so it's viable, I think the max allowance for most Steel types for martensite transformation is 7-8 seconds. So anything under 8 will work.
3v is an air quenching steel. Plate quenching is usually only done with air quenching steel. Although with the right set up it can probably be done with some slow oil hardening steel like o1. It will not work with steels that have a very fast cooling curve needed to harden like 1095 or 1084 etc.🙂
@@OUTDOORS55 Oh okay, so this is a type of air hardening technique, thanks for the info. I think I own a few air hardened steel blades, but I've never attempted it myself. I actually assumed you just put them in a air vacuum or cold air near ice. I would never have guessed plates were used to transfer the heat and absorb it. pretty ingenious.
you might try 8670. its affordable, easy to heat treat and extremely tough. It doesnt rust instantly like that one alloy you had either. check out the baton test on the 8670 chef knife on Alpha Knife Supply.
It would be interesting to learn what you need and how to make knives . I know you have covered some of this already but I don’t know if you put it in a new knife maker format
I've got three 3v knives and wow! It's amazing steel
Try some Vanadis 4 Extra, even Ballbearing steel can get better on both edge retention and edge stability, compared to CPM 3V. It's not overrrated but there are way better performers in my experience out there (all things be equal of course, 'cause other atributes like heat treatment, bevel geometries, etc, are far more important.)
I heard 1080 is forge steel and much easier to consistently heat treat than 1095 and then there is D2 which i find good for pretty much anything except diving but i guess its air quenched too - good basic carbon steel is awesome and works like a champ ---keep it simple and good Cheers
I like using D2 for alot of things
Where you get that accessory to keep the blades in a vertical position when inside the forge?
Have you ever tried adding carbons to lower carbon steels? Would something like aus8 do with more carbon added?
Excellent review, thank you for your time doing it. One question, what are the staining and rusting characteristics of this steel? I’ve been using New Jersey Steel Baron‘s nitro V steel and wonder how it would stack up in a test like you’ve done. 🤔
With a low heat temper its very stain resistant. It's a lot tough than nitro v.
Great testing an how you made your own knife,I'm intrigued.
Great demo of 3V. Doing the grind after the heat treat is more common? Or do knife makers do most grinds before heat treating the steel?
Amazing work !!!
I wanted to know if you can keep ur whetstone in water all the time? Or is there a better solution?
Maybe baton 16 penny nails to check edge toughness. I've seen it done with other steels
Thanks for sharing...
Keep up the great work...
i am impressed for this test
Are you by chance taking pre release orders for the final design , if so please let me know I would like to be in the first group to get your first production run.
Congrats on 100k!
Great video! Do you take any custom orders for knives?
I tend to think that ninety five percent of the public could get by fine with another type of steel.
Would be good to have a knife like that, good material, but considering all things, there's other options !
Thanks for sharing and take care. 👍
I think you're right. It makes sense to prioritize your wants and go for the top priority and maybe a "nice to have" characteristic, instead of all your wants in one knife as wonderful as that would be.
Did you ever compare the high cycle vs the low cycle recommended by Roman?
Nice work. Love your content...
Good job pal, man... that steel is no joke.
I really liked watching this series.
I've been dreaming of a cross design of a clinch pick by Craig Douglas and the master bushman by William Collins. What are your thoughts
Damn, that's a great test!
how much weight would you loose if you also had drilled holes in the blade of the s7
Can I ask, where did you get those cut sheets of what temp. And how long to temper and heat treat the specific metal your working with???
I like your work, thanks!
Thanks for the video, man
I liked the music for the tip breaking part
I am not a knife maker, but a knife user. Still, this is interesting, since I knew so little about heat treatment and it can have a direct affect on the quality of the knife, despite the type of steel.
I would like to see a list or comparison of companies who do good treatment of certain steels.
@Star Gazer1212 Thank you.
Great test!
Wow, your test blade did much better than my Benchmade Leuku
Good video. I was really surprised when you break the tip but then you say the tip was 1/4 of an inch into the wood. CPM3V is a really tough steel isn't it.
You doing great work👍
I always throw a piece of paper in with the steel to pull out any oxygen in the packet, I use to use argon, but it's kind of a waste... I'll tell ya, the only time i wear gloves in the shop is when I'm using tool wrap, that stuff will cut you quick... when I tried CPM 3v, I got it to a 64hrc, then mess up & left my oven on too long and it ramped up to 1300f temper ruined... From what I understand, you can go almost to finished bevel with CPM3v, mine came out straight, but i haven't finished it yet... Hope all is well, take it easy...
tyckrider ,do you have a link for the oven you're using.
Since 3v is a tool steel do you suppose the heat treating protocol provided by crucible was for insert tooling or something else far removed from knives?
What do you think of N690Co steel for tactical/combat/hard use?
You should get some knife blanks from the water jet channel and review their blanks
I was thinking about that
Just buy a bark river bravo 1 lt. Use it for testing 3v capability. I have one. Took alot of sandpaper to reprofile the edge but man it lasts. I batoned 20 poplar logs and it was still sharp. Not hair shaving but 5 minutes on the strop it was back! I never ReSharpen. Just maintain with a strop. Easy blade maintenance
Would using thinner material help with issues using it if so why not sandwich this as filling and another steel you like as bread??
Great video by the way what is the hardness of the 3v steel you heat treated to? Thanks.
It's in the description 🙃 (he lacks the equipment to properly test that)
i think your subjective qualitative judgments are in fact good data points, because it's what the end user ultimately will feel the difference with. whether it feels tough, and whether it feels like it's retaining it's edge somewhat more than mid grade steels
Very like your video, now very clear.
What edc knife do you use? Also do you make custome knives for people?
Great video buddy
Hello ther! what do you think about sharping blades for lawn mover,any
sugestions how to make it super extra hard and sharp so i dont need to
sharp it every time i need to cut that damn grass? i dont have any super knowlege about sharpening or hardening,but any sugestions would be gr8
I know less about metallurgy than I do about astrophysics, but it seems that the heat treat is at least as important as the steel. I have a couple of 420HC Bucks that will hold an edge through all kinds of abuse. They're also a bitch to sharpen. Am I wrong?
CPM-3V is my favorite steel for fixed blades.
Hey! You should definitely check out cru-wear as well
And Vannadis 4 exrta 😉
3V is some great stuff, and definitely worth the extra trouble to work with.
I just got a Demko knife in 3v. I'm very excited to try it out
How do feel about S30V?
I bought a Benchmade Bushcrafter awhile ago but had to change the grind it's laughable out of box.
They really like putting folder grinds on fixed blades .... I was not happy with the stock blade. Even the handle was off a bit but I just fixed it all and now it's a great knife amd holds up well. .
That said I think a 1095 version would be just fine to me .. I just don't really care anymore . I'd rather just have a good 1095 that sharpens without diamond stones.
Your oven, Alex. Did you make it or buy it? If you bought it, where & how bad was the price?
What about m390. How hard is it to work with ?
Good morning please tell me your opinion about steel more resistant at chip on blade and Tip between 154 CM and CPM 3v. Thanks off all, bye
How’s that ultimate knife going along?