I had the FFB on my T300 fail recently and I could barely hold it in a straight line. Over correcting and turning way to fast with zero resistance on the wheel. Switched to a backup Fanatec Porsche GT2 wheel base which had FFB but felt like zero centering force. I could drive it but had very little feel for the car. Just recieved my Fanatec CSL Elite v1.1 base and Formula V2 Rim and wow, what a difference. Feel so much more from the car and I can push that little bit more with confidence. This is driving the M8 GTE on iRacing.
I'm a casual sim-racer and I currently have a no-ffb thrustmaster wheel and I'm thinking on upgrading to a ffb wheel, mainly because of the ffb and also the turning radius. You think it's worth the effort for a casual gamer?
For me , force feedback is a thing that makes me easier to catch slides and avoid wrecks. Although I can feel the limit easier , I don't think it makes me faster a whole lot
I like the comparison, I think as humans we can adapt to anything if we give ourselves the time. But having the feedback I feel definitely makes you more consistent and the main reason for most things in sims immersion! Great video thank you!
So I don't think this is enough to generalize. The brain is very effective at learning correlated inputs such that if one is missing, you can capture similar information from others (multiple pathways, neuron dropout, etc). You've learned the correct visual cues via ffb, so you are aware of how the car is behaving even when it's turned off (it definitely feels weird though!). An updated experiment would be much more effective at teasing apart the impact of ffb. 4 runs with two different unfamiliar cars. First car, use ffb first then no ffb, second car use no ffb first then ffb. The hypothesis is that ffb allows for a faster learning rate rather than a higher upper bound, so while you might not be faster in an absolute sense, you'll be faster with a lot less time spent practicing! P.S. Really enjoy your videos!
What I've found is that turning force feedback off changes how the car handles with the wheel rotated at certain points. So, for instance, if you use your usual force settings, taking a turn with the wheel at 90 degrees off-center, the input level may be somewhere closer to 80 degrees in accordance to the car itself (not the actual input from your wheel), because the force pushing against you to simulate the weight of the steering and car adjusts the steering response of the car in the sim. I hope that made sense. I first realized this one day when I decided to mess with my feedback settings and turned it way down. Still a little bit of feedback, but the steering was extremely light. I took corners as I usually would, meaning the same amount of input, but found that I was turning too much and even ended up spinning or cutting corners where normally I wouldn't. Intrigued, I turned the force off, and my precision was thrown off even further. I had to adjust by not turning as much, because there was nothing pushing back at the steering wheel. It made it very difficult to make subtle adjustments. Just as a check afterward, I turned my FFB all the way up (not using direct drive, so I didn't kill myself). I found that with the heavier steering, I was actually able to be much more precise, because the feedback made it easier to make minute changes in input. But it also worked the hell out of my wheel (and my arms), so I dialed it back again, just a little stronger than I had it originally. Sometimes I set my feedback low and run a few laps, just for a different feel and to work on getting my actual steering input right, instead of relying on the FFB to "correct" my steering angle. I'm able to run laps as quick as when I have my settings how I like them, it just takes some time. I'm sure results are different based on different equipment people use, but using low feedback has helped me drive smoother and actually save some tire life when I turn the wheel back up.
One thing I definitely found, having no force feedback for a long time. My setups and driving style always had to be very conservative. Could not chase the rear in any effective manner. Force feedback made chasing the rear tires much more intuitive and easy
I've tried to race with no sound, and there was an instant disconnect between my feet, my hands, and my brain. I can use visual cues to know when to shift, but there's an emptiness that I can't explain if I don't have the engine sound with it.
In karting I used to open my Visor just a little bit to get some fresh air. But MAINLY to hear the engine better. When my visor was closed the sound was so dampened that it felt weird. I didn't really become slower, but I was definitely not as comfortable driving. Funny how sound is actually important.
I have a no FFB wheel for 23 years. Back then, I bought it because the FFB wheels tend to break down within a year or 2. I got my input from the screen, sound and track knowledge.
Funny i did same straight after your video ( i dont have motion platform ), fun idea to test it while in lock down. What i notice is when you turn of FFB after few laps and go for a no FFB run ... As soon as my brain notice there is no phisical feedback from the wheel it trying to simulate it. Its wierd but when im coming in to the corner my brain trying to remember the feeling with FFB on and i have sesnsatio in my arms limiting me to do unatural moves with wheel. Brain-muscle memory ? Fascinating :) Cool video. Keep it up and stay safe. 🤘👍
My first wheel was a Thrustmaster without FFB, it just had a bungee cord to center the wheel. It certainly is doable, I had to pay much more attention to the sounds, it tells us a lot, we just tend to neglect it a little when we have other means of feedback
Same I’m using a t80 rn and looking into a t300 cuz I find it’s a little harder without the ffb since I can’t feel the road and I’m not fighting the car
@@disnoxis can you play competitive and fast without ffb and are you enjoy.i would like to buy a steering whell without ffb because i dont have enough money.should i buy.w hat you think
@@hkvinsomnia yea you can still play pretty competitive I haven’t gotten my t300 yet still saving up but I have been enjoying my time using the t80 but as I said in my previous comment it is very helpful to have ffb and another thing to not is wheels without ffb have lower rotation which means In game for me at least without fiddling too much with game settings is a little sensitive but it is a good start if you wanna test a wheel I also got mine on sale for $50cad so it was a pretty cheap start but if you want to get really Immersed and competitive go for ffb TLDR: no ffb can give you a cheap and decent gameplay where ffb is more expensive but can provide more immersion and possibly better control
@@disnoxis yeah i understand now. thanks for your answer mate. i will buy a no ffb one. and after i save up if i still enjoy racing i will upgrade. Have a nice day mate
For me, FFB is useful (informative) in order to communicate what the car is doing up to a point. When it becomes too much, and the wheel fights back more than you need or becomes too heavy or intrusive to control, and it then becomes a hindrance to laptimes. I've steadily reduced gain over the years so I still have enough to inform me of what I need to know through the wheel, but also the least possible to stop the wheel fighting back and throwing my input away from what I intended.
At the end of the day it depends on what you want, if its pure racing speed then you might not choose to have the distractions that immersion provides, you have just proved that the ffb and seat motion dont really add speed but they add immersion, I for one opt for the immersion. Great video, thanks.
Interesting test, I have noticed in my short time I have been sim racing no matter what hardware I use, I run around the same times, From my G25 to now my V2.5 and soon to be DD motor. The cool hardware and the effects they bring to the table just up the level of fun. and immersion for me. I like to win but not at the expenses of surrendering what makes these sims fun and a great driving experience. Also it is great seeing that even entry level hardware can be competetive. Agree ACC is the best FFB IMO too although I have not ran R Factor 2 that is said to be very good as well
I really liked the video. It is a good experiment of how quick the brain adapts. Also kinda make the point that the more money/equipment you put into this it's only to increase perception of reality but not really to help you be faster.
It'd be interesting to see how easy you'd find learning a new circuit with no ffb vs with it, or a new car for that matter. I think doing back-to-back testing like that can give a false effect of being able to get to the limit of the car, when really you're using the learning you've done with ffb to know you can get around a corner at X speed and make it stick. I'd say having LC brakes are more important than a really good ffb setup though in order to be consistently fast.
Good to see I could only afford a holiday room on xbox to sim race. It is good to see why I am much slower then you. Now I only feel slower. Thanks mate.
Great video again Will! Since we are talking about FFB right now. In iRacing, some people use the software IRFFB. It is a software that gives better FFB in iRacing, well thats what they say. I really like the software myself! Maybe interesting to make a video about that, to see what the difference is with and without the software?
Oh boy that car and track combo for this challenge... I struggle with it even with ffb on, the Porsche just bumps and skids all over the place then going over the top of the mountain. Maybe you’ve managed to tweak some of that out with setup? I run the defaults. Good video Will!
I think over the course of a lap and over the course of a race the difference will shine through. No doubt you can be just as fast without feedback. Consistency Consistency Consistency !
Simucube owners can try this easily just by hitting e-stop button while driving. To me it feels like the car would be floating in the air, or constantly slipping on ice :)
i remember pre-force feedback gaming. Still think ACC has very minimal feedback too date, so it is like the old days. Needs significant improvement whether they admit or not.
Jeremia Kurniawan LMAOO I just got one for 170 Canadian hpjust ordered its flashfire force wheel it’s a 4 in 1 you get the force feed back and vibration wheel a shifter attached to it and pedals and you can use it on ps3 ps4 all Xbox ones and pc awesome deal it’s on bestbuy and amazon
Another Great Video, Watching you is sometimes painful for me. That's mostly because I watch you sitting in that insane Rig you built that sits inside that insane Studio you also built, Doing everything that I wish I was doing. Then,,,, I remember, I'm cursed. Putting that out there leaves me feeling incredibly open to ridicule. But if I know I'm stuck in a hole and I say nothing, I will stay stuck in that hole. I see the Midas touch in you, and It's something I seemed to have lost. I've never really believed a person could be cursed but I'm starting to wonder. I've shared with you my long struggle with sim racing and how it took so long to discover the problem was a defective Wheel. I finely put enough money together to make the switch to Fanatec gear. Over night last week I instantly went from that Rocky the Racing Snail to podium finish, Race after Race and by the end of the week I'd lost count of the number of wins. Every time I finished a race I was grinning like a kid. Then three nights ago I started a race and just before the end of the first lap something went wrong and I went straight into a wall. Zero control. My new wheel jumped out of PC Mode and into Xbox Mode. I have no idea why and have been unable as yet to fix it. I mean what Sim Racing God did I piss off.
soooo...as a potential new comer to SimRacing what this taught me is, that ff isn't even relevant to overall time's but solely for "immersement" purposes. Hmm, dangerous info the release to the masses mate. Just saved me a bundle on initial set-up tho so cheers.
I believe some iRacing pros either used very little or no force feedback at all. It's all about what you're comfortable with. I need a heavy wheel and a good amount of force feedback to feel comfortable
I'm still using that cheap Ferrari wheel, no force feedback...WELCOME TO MY WORLD!! LOL!! I have to admit I was surprised by the results, but I'm still saving up for a nice force feedback wheel!!
I have the Ferrari Thrustmaster wheel on XB and I'm really thinking of upgrading to at least a TMX, seen good reviews on it and it's not too expensive. I'm still hesitant though, because I like the one I have... but then I see these guys on YT making a certain laptime, calling it "fairly decent" or even "not too bad" and I can't even get close to that... and end up thinking if it's the wheel holding me back or if I'm just a noob.
So this helped me feel a bit better. I just lost my first DD wheel (simagic Alpha u) to a power surge, my wife had gotten it for us right before she lost her job, I have just started getting fast lap times and started getting followers and likes, and now I'm worried this Logitech isn't going to let me drive the way my old wheel did... We're in no place to replace the wheel now, I just hope I can still drive the same because i felt alot in my wheel and I'm sad I'll prob never be able to replace
Back in LFS days there were aliens that used to run either FFB off or very muted with some damping, many still drive with similar settings in iRacing and other sims at a high level. FFB has always been an over rated effect.
@@LorenzoClara97 Yes and no. Some sims give FFB that doesn't actually exist in real life, but to give you an idea as to what the car is doing as a whole, as we don't have g forces in a sim rig, which can sometimes confuse the brain. Hence why some people work really well with FFB, and some don't. Real life you tend to only really feel wheel weight, torque from the weight of the car, kerbs and road surface as well as some minor vibrations from bearings/engine, etc. Some sims give out so many more forces just to compensate. Theres also the issue of FFB from a sim can be very robotic and choppy, something that doesn't exist in real life, so for some people, especially some whom drive actual race cars, can struggle with adapting to FFB as they aren't used to feeling particular forces through the wheel. No problem with FFB here, I highly rely on it, just not really black and white FFB = more speed. Depends on the individual. :)
I wouldn't call FFB overrated, but it's definitely depended on too much in some cases. It's possible to be just as fast with low FFB or with it off, but what the feedback does for me is improve my consistency and allows me to drive more by feel than visual cues. It's more an aid than a necessity. I practice at times with it low just to work on smooth steering inputs.
For a more level set test suggest single laps on track unfamiliar to you w each combination perhaps rotating all three then repeat each test to isolate performance .. amazing how fact your brain reacts as you noted .. still waiting for my combo from Fanatec .. my cockpit just arrived .. computer next week .. can’t wait to drive sim race tracks .. thanks again for your advice and enthusiasm!!
The FFB in ACC is good for catching the rear of the car and nice for immersion really good suspension compression, track detail and ABS vibrations and bumps. But it's on no use for knowing what to do to hold the car at the limit as it lacks the SOP FFB you get in AC,AMS,RF2 it also lacks a range of FFB variation for how much grip you have instead the ffb just gets light after you have already gone over the limit , its a real shame is its one of the top aspects of AC1 / NKP / FVA and one of the big things that made those games really stand out to other simulators at the time. Ironically due to how dynamic ACC tracks are (day night rain) it would benefit the most from having communicative FFB like AC as that makes adapting to the state of the wheels and trackway more intuitive and allows drivers to avoid overdriving by feeling the FFB rather than having to memorize everything or going by the visuals.
I have no force feedback, I am still usually either 2 seconds behind or just as competitive. My friends all have ff wheels. It’s weird how quick your brain and go just off audio and visual ques
This moment i have only the thrustmaster t80 (yes really) as backup wheel.... you can indeed drive with that (has 0.0 ffb or spring etc) but when you spin, you spin... Can't correct it than.... Today also they send me the DD1, so than is everything different haha, can't wait !
Do you feel your steering wheels rotation is right regarding the perception of over/understeer? Just watched an interesting vid by Kryptic TMG where degrees of rotation for his TM T300 wheel was changed within the wheels app as well as in ACC settings looking to get his feel and perception in agreement as well as the wheels sweep from lock to lock [which are the same problems I'm experiencing]. Strangely enough, he wound up with both numbers off of a 900-degree baseline more than you'd imagine as well as being pretty far off from one another before he was satisfied. Have you looked into, experimented, or tested for this phenomenon?
If you want to adjust how much the car turns per each degree, just set both wheel and ingame to 900 degrees so that the animation matches, and then just use the Steering Ratio setting under Mechanical Grip tab. Its there for a reason.
Hello ! Great video. I have a lot of money. I want a sim setup like you do. What processor, GPU & RAM do you use ? Also please let me know the other hardware like monitors, wheel, pedals, shifters, etc. you are using. Thank you.
Not worth the money! I use an old, very old Logitech wingman formula force gp wheel. And I have b grade in Raceroom Experience. In simulation you have to figure out how the GAME works. Practising! If you practicing enough, you learn how the game works, and when you can turn the wheel. This is not real racing, not a real car, just zeros and ones in an algorythm. Just like a pattern. You have to follow the pattern and you will be fast in a track! Thats is. You have to always do the same - hit the gas, break, downshift, hit the gas. Like a railway. Everyone thinks equipment is important for sim racing. No! This is what companys want you to think! Because sim racing is not real, only a game. And a game is beatable if you practicing a lot. If you drive real cars in real life, you noticed racing games are way far from reality. FFB is the most overhyped thing in computer games history for example.
That was a little surprising. Wonder if it would be the same outcome on a track and car that you weren't so familiar with... I suspect FFB would help attune to things quicker.
Interesting challenge, I'm still using a G27 and I think with the complete lack of weight with a plastic wheel it would be really challenging to do (in a bad way). The FF is so weak with it, I need to use sound cues often in iRacing to know if I'm at the limit. I look forward to my upgrade next year. Quick question, I'm just about to get my "Class C Road". What are some good buys for cars/series that have good number populations? And is there any car I should stay away from?
I'm a C-class G27 user as well 😊 I'd start off in IMSA Michelin Pilot before you move to anything faster, I thought I could go straight from MX5 and Skip to F3 and Radicals but I was so far off the pace it wasn't funny. Good grid numbers most of the time in IMSA too. Don't bother with Pro Mazda, it's being replaced later in the year. Haven't tried any of the others to comment.
Calling for a refund tomorrow. 😂 I'm sure a lot of the immersion is gone but I'm surprised too at how well that went. 25+ years ago, before there where any wheels to speak of, let alone FFB wheels, a friend of mine and I made steering wheels that rolled up a bungy cord as you turned. More resistance but definitely not FFB. 😋 It was better then a joystick or a mouse though. 😉 the first FFB wheel that I got let me feel the tires coming unstuck and I was sold!
I believe good pedals are much more important than force feedback. Being able to use the break and throttle in a more realistic way will give you a lot more time. I myself am using a crappy old wheel without FF and I keep up with most of the people I race against. My performance hurts the most because the pedals are absolutely horrible and I have to use assists ingame to be able to drive with them. In comparison, I do drive my real car on trackdays so I know how to adjust break and throttle, also drove gocarts when I was younger, but the pedals I have to my wheel are just to soft so it's impossible to get any kind of feel with them. I think you'll be able to drive just as quickly without FF if you just practise just as much as you have with FF. So, I'd suggest you try with all the bells and whistles on but with the worst kind of pedals you can come up with and see how much worse you'll drive with them.
You forget to tell if it was fun and immersive. Because most of people who like racing sim mostly enjoy it for the fun and the immersion. And a DD wheel add a lot of those 2, for me I don't care if I am faster without FFB, it will be less fun for sure ;)
In my experience, FFB is a compromise between catching slides vs acurate handling of the car. If you go high in one side you will go down in the other.
You just get used to whatever setup you have. I raced for 2 years with a Thrustmaster rubber band wheel with no ffb. When I first got a ffb wheel it took me forever to adjust because the fact the steering wheel was moving on it’s own was throwing me off and I kept crashing.
Great video, how ever i do think that it would have been a much more fair comparison if you did it on a track where you dont already have great experience. And started with the no FFB first and got used to it, and then just did a few with everything on, to try and see if you can improve. Cos im pretty sure you would improve with a LOT after just 4-5 laps, and that improvement will still be there if you go back to the non FFB setup after those 5 laps. Cos even if you dont have the same info with the FFB off at bathurst, you still have driven it so much that you know in your spine where the edge of the cars performance are, even with FFB off.
@@boostedmedia Ah ok, ive watched quite a few of your videos last 2 weeks with reviews and stuff, and it seems like its often Bathurst :D But you get my point right? That muscle memory and experience kicks in quicker than one thinks. I would be willing to bet money on that if you went in and did 20 laps on a new track with no FFB, and then went with FFB on for 5 laps on the same track, your time would improve quite a bit. And that improvement will be carried over if you then go back to no FFB right after.
I saw a test like that but with a cheap wheel vs a DD wheel. And the improvements kept on when switching back. Meaning that you can still be just as good really, but finding that line, and having consistency is much harder to do. But its still possible.
4:98 Crazy that the natural thing feels unnatural and the artificial thing feels more natural. It would be more interesting to go to a track you've never been to before and go without FFB first. Right now you can use familiar visual cues to help you find the limit. You also need to turn off the shaker rig.
Hey mate. So I see people on Facebook are selling whole setups lately. Do you think this was just a phase for these people. I mean like 3g plus setups. Whole rigs and what not. Lot of money spent for just a phase.
It would have been good if you could have followed this up with a set of laps with the FFB turned back on. You had to focus on visual clues and more concentration with it turned off it would have been good to see if you went quicker than the target time as a follow up lap. Could be a useful learning tool if it made you quicker overall.
Then this whole experiment is surprising. You had better not let the wife see it. Actually on behalf of all of us, please can you delete this one. Keep the rest though as they are great and thanks for providing such good content.
My guess is if you done the comparison the opposite way and went from no force first to normal last the results would be greater difference. Your brain could’ve done the laps with muscle memory by the end knowing where the braking markers are already, knowing already how the track feels in different parts so it fills the missing gaps. But if those gaps weren’t already filled... my guess which is just a guess lol
Nice experiment! but you already generated a number of reference points on that circuit when you drove with the feedback. without the feedback and reference points it would have been even more difficult. It's like playing the guitar with your eyes closed, it's not that hard to do once the muscle memory is built up. I guess learning to play without being able to see must be more difficult at first.
You should watch sim racers and how little they blink when cutting laps! I recorded myself recently and I literally only blinked when on a decent straight. Didn't even realize lol
If like me you've raced using a non ffb wheel back in the good old days, your brain has all that information locked way down deep in there, so i would think it would all come back to the surface after a while.
force feedback is a gimmick and is essentially the "steering assist" option in games re-branded. i compared the g29 with an old 2014 Thrustmaster and scored faster lap times in the latter... FFB is a placebo effect, like GSync (yes i have one of those monitors and it, again, is just in game VSYNC re-branded.
When I started with GPL, GTR etc, my non ffb wheels were slightly faster or just as fast as my G25. FFB adds immersion and consistency, not speed imho. In particular, countersteering was much more clinical (but obviously had to be done manually). With no FFB, your inputs end up very calculated However, you obviously need a wheel designed to be non FFB in the first place! Switching off FFB on an FFB wheel is horrible
Hmm no FFB is one of those topics that I’ve seen come up when talking about the fastest drivers, and this it’s here in the comments too. I feel like though this was more prominent back a decade ago when sims were, say, less refined? Mind you I’m not a top level racer so can’t say that from experience
Unfortunately yes. these webcams are absolute garbage and change calibration every time the PC is rebooted. The same settings don't give the same results either. WIll be replacing them soon hopefully.
Let me know whether you fast guys see similar results. I'm guessing the faster you are, the bigger the difference will be!
I had the FFB on my T300 fail recently and I could barely hold it in a straight line. Over correcting and turning way to fast with zero resistance on the wheel. Switched to a backup Fanatec Porsche GT2 wheel base which had FFB but felt like zero centering force. I could drive it but had very little feel for the car. Just recieved my Fanatec CSL Elite v1.1 base and Formula V2 Rim and wow, what a difference. Feel so much more from the car and I can push that little bit more with confidence. This is driving the M8 GTE on iRacing.
I'm a casual sim-racer and I currently have a no-ffb thrustmaster wheel and I'm thinking on upgrading to a ffb wheel, mainly because of the ffb and also the turning radius. You think it's worth the effort for a casual gamer?
@@jamesbolho FFB wheels are always worth it compared to non FFB.
Couldn't you just have hit the emergency button of the simucube or does the ultimate not have this? Or let it go into standby mode.
For me , force feedback is a thing that makes me easier to catch slides and avoid wrecks. Although I can feel the limit easier , I don't think it makes me faster a whole lot
I can't feel the rear end sliding or coming out at all without ffb.
Force feedback is unrealistic
I have a thrustmaster tx and i dont use it
@@sosamontana3719 wtf
@@samoimusic i take that back bro u really need ffb
I like the comparison, I think as humans we can adapt to anything if we give ourselves the time. But having the feedback I feel definitely makes you more consistent and the main reason for most things in sims immersion! Great video thank you!
I agree.
Nice crazy idea. Your setup reminds me on when I had a chance to fly in a EA-6B flight simulator while in the Navy. Awesomeness. Thanks 🙏
So I don't think this is enough to generalize. The brain is very effective at learning correlated inputs such that if one is missing, you can capture similar information from others (multiple pathways, neuron dropout, etc). You've learned the correct visual cues via ffb, so you are aware of how the car is behaving even when it's turned off (it definitely feels weird though!). An updated experiment would be much more effective at teasing apart the impact of ffb. 4 runs with two different unfamiliar cars. First car, use ffb first then no ffb, second car use no ffb first then ffb. The hypothesis is that ffb allows for a faster learning rate rather than a higher upper bound, so while you might not be faster in an absolute sense, you'll be faster with a lot less time spent practicing!
P.S. Really enjoy your videos!
I agree with this! Will, please make a follow-up video related to qwie100 suggestions.
Well said!
great idea
What I've found is that turning force feedback off changes how the car handles with the wheel rotated at certain points. So, for instance, if you use your usual force settings, taking a turn with the wheel at 90 degrees off-center, the input level may be somewhere closer to 80 degrees in accordance to the car itself (not the actual input from your wheel), because the force pushing against you to simulate the weight of the steering and car adjusts the steering response of the car in the sim. I hope that made sense.
I first realized this one day when I decided to mess with my feedback settings and turned it way down. Still a little bit of feedback, but the steering was extremely light. I took corners as I usually would, meaning the same amount of input, but found that I was turning too much and even ended up spinning or cutting corners where normally I wouldn't. Intrigued, I turned the force off, and my precision was thrown off even further. I had to adjust by not turning as much, because there was nothing pushing back at the steering wheel. It made it very difficult to make subtle adjustments.
Just as a check afterward, I turned my FFB all the way up (not using direct drive, so I didn't kill myself). I found that with the heavier steering, I was actually able to be much more precise, because the feedback made it easier to make minute changes in input. But it also worked the hell out of my wheel (and my arms), so I dialed it back again, just a little stronger than I had it originally.
Sometimes I set my feedback low and run a few laps, just for a different feel and to work on getting my actual steering input right, instead of relying on the FFB to "correct" my steering angle. I'm able to run laps as quick as when I have my settings how I like them, it just takes some time. I'm sure results are different based on different equipment people use, but using low feedback has helped me drive smoother and actually save some tire life when I turn the wheel back up.
One thing I definitely found, having no force feedback for a long time. My setups and driving style always had to be very conservative. Could not chase the rear in any effective manner. Force feedback made chasing the rear tires much more intuitive and easy
For me no sound is even harder. I need the sound of the engine to know when to shift.
I've tried to race with no sound, and there was an instant disconnect between my feet, my hands, and my brain. I can use visual cues to know when to shift, but there's an emptiness that I can't explain if I don't have the engine sound with it.
In karting I used to open my Visor just a little bit to get some fresh air.
But MAINLY to hear the engine better. When my visor was closed the sound was so dampened that it felt weird. I didn't really become slower, but I was definitely not as comfortable driving.
Funny how sound is actually important.
I have a no FFB wheel for 23 years. Back then, I bought it because the FFB wheels tend to break down within a year or 2. I got my input from the screen, sound and track knowledge.
Funny i did same straight after your video ( i dont have motion platform ), fun idea to test it while in lock down.
What i notice is when you turn of FFB after few laps and go for a no FFB run ... As soon as my brain notice there is no phisical feedback from the wheel it trying to simulate it. Its wierd but when im coming in to the corner my brain trying to remember the feeling with FFB on and i have sesnsatio in my arms limiting me to do unatural moves with wheel. Brain-muscle memory ? Fascinating :) Cool video. Keep it up and stay safe. 🤘👍
My first wheel was a Thrustmaster without FFB, it just had a bungee cord to center the wheel. It certainly is doable, I had to pay much more attention to the sounds, it tells us a lot, we just tend to neglect it a little when we have other means of feedback
Facts
Same I’m using a t80 rn and looking into a t300 cuz I find it’s a little harder without the ffb since I can’t feel the road and I’m not fighting the car
@@disnoxis can you play competitive and fast without ffb and are you enjoy.i would like to buy a steering whell without ffb because i dont have enough money.should i buy.w hat you think
@@hkvinsomnia yea you can still play pretty competitive I haven’t gotten my t300 yet still saving up but I have been enjoying my time using the t80 but as I said in my previous comment it is very helpful to have ffb and another thing to not is wheels without ffb have lower rotation which means In game for me at least without fiddling too much with game settings is a little sensitive but it is a good start if you wanna test a wheel I also got mine on sale for $50cad so it was a pretty cheap start but if you want to get really Immersed and competitive go for ffb
TLDR: no ffb can give you a cheap and decent gameplay where ffb is more expensive but can provide more immersion and possibly better control
@@disnoxis yeah i understand now. thanks for your answer mate. i will buy a no ffb one. and after i save up if i still enjoy racing i will upgrade. Have a nice day mate
For me, FFB is useful (informative) in order to communicate what the car is doing up to a point. When it becomes too much, and the wheel fights back more than you need or becomes too heavy or intrusive to control, and it then becomes a hindrance to laptimes.
I've steadily reduced gain over the years so I still have enough to inform me of what I need to know through the wheel, but also the least possible to stop the wheel fighting back and throwing my input away from what I intended.
I remember when FFB first came out and 90% of sim racers slagged it off. Was a bit like the reaction to VR.
At the end of the day it depends on what you want, if its pure racing speed then you might not choose to have the distractions that immersion provides, you have just proved that the ffb and seat motion dont really add speed but they add immersion, I for one opt for the immersion. Great video, thanks.
Absolutely 100% correct
Interesting test, I have noticed in my short time I have been sim racing no matter what hardware I use, I run around the same times, From my G25 to now my V2.5 and soon to be DD motor. The cool hardware and the effects they bring to the table just up the level of fun. and immersion for me. I like to win but not at the expenses of surrendering what makes these sims fun and a great driving experience. Also it is great seeing that even entry level hardware can be competetive. Agree ACC is the best FFB IMO too although I have not ran R Factor 2 that is said to be very good as well
I really liked the video. It is a good experiment of how quick the brain adapts. Also kinda make the point that the more money/equipment you put into this it's only to increase perception of reality but not really to help you be faster.
It'd be interesting to see how easy you'd find learning a new circuit with no ffb vs with it, or a new car for that matter. I think doing back-to-back testing like that can give a false effect of being able to get to the limit of the car, when really you're using the learning you've done with ffb to know you can get around a corner at X speed and make it stick.
I'd say having LC brakes are more important than a really good ffb setup though in order to be consistently fast.
Good to see I could only afford a holiday room on xbox to sim race. It is good to see why I am much slower then you. Now I only feel slower. Thanks mate.
Ur setup is soooo cool!
Thank you! You just saved me from pulling the trigger on a ts-xw! From my no ffb wheelset. 😅 very interesting! Convinced me not to upgrade yet! 👍
I thought I was the only one with no ffb
Great video again Will! Since we are talking about FFB right now. In iRacing, some people use the software IRFFB. It is a software that gives better FFB in iRacing, well thats what they say. I really like the software myself! Maybe interesting to make a video about that, to see what the difference is with and without the software?
Oh boy that car and track combo for this challenge... I struggle with it even with ffb on, the Porsche just bumps and skids all over the place then going over the top of the mountain. Maybe you’ve managed to tweak some of that out with setup? I run the defaults. Good video Will!
Thanks mate. I’m still just running default setup.
I think over the course of a lap and over the course of a race the difference will shine through. No doubt you can be just as fast without feedback. Consistency Consistency Consistency !
Really interesting. Looking forward to your updated 10 things I wish I knew about sim racing...
This video is very useful to me because I have a T300 with faulty FFB
Simucube owners can try this easily just by hitting e-stop button while driving. To me it feels like the car would be floating in the air, or constantly slipping on ice :)
i remember pre-force feedback gaming. Still think ACC has very minimal feedback too date, so it is like the old days. Needs significant improvement whether they admit or not.
One of the guys in my TT league swears his motion platform has made him slower. This is the proof he needs :D
I don't know, but in my real car no force feedback, more like a steering wheel on spring :)
Jeremia Kurniawan LMAOO I just got one for 170 Canadian hpjust ordered its flashfire force wheel it’s a 4 in 1 you get the force feed back and vibration wheel a shifter attached to it and pedals and you can use it on ps3 ps4 all Xbox ones and pc awesome deal it’s on bestbuy and amazon
Another Great Video, Watching you is sometimes painful for me. That's mostly because I watch you sitting in that insane Rig you built that sits inside that insane Studio you also built, Doing everything that I wish I was doing. Then,,,, I remember, I'm cursed. Putting that out there leaves me feeling incredibly open to ridicule. But if I know I'm stuck in a hole and I say nothing, I will stay stuck in that hole. I see the Midas touch in you, and It's something I seemed to have lost. I've never really believed a person could be cursed but I'm starting to wonder. I've shared with you my long struggle with sim racing and how it took so long to discover the problem was a defective Wheel. I finely put enough money together to make the switch to Fanatec gear. Over night last week I instantly went from that Rocky the Racing Snail to podium finish, Race after Race and by the end of the week I'd lost count of the number of wins. Every time I finished a race I was grinning like a kid. Then three nights ago I started a race and just before the end of the first lap something went wrong and I went straight into a wall. Zero control. My new wheel jumped out of PC Mode and into Xbox Mode. I have no idea why and have been unable as yet to fix it. I mean what Sim Racing God did I piss off.
soooo...as a potential new comer to SimRacing what this taught me is, that ff isn't even relevant to overall time's but solely for "immersement" purposes. Hmm, dangerous info the release to the masses mate. Just saved me a bundle on initial set-up tho so cheers.
May as well just use a controller then mate....
Results are good because of your perfection 😁😁✌️
What's that tachometer to your right called? I just switched from VR to a 49er and can't see my tach for pit road speed.
Jack Britt th-cam.com/video/avwEU6UKq1c/w-d-xo.html
I believe some iRacing pros either used very little or no force feedback at all. It's all about what you're comfortable with. I need a heavy wheel and a good amount of force feedback to feel comfortable
I'm still using that cheap Ferrari wheel, no force feedback...WELCOME TO MY WORLD!! LOL!! I have to admit I was surprised by the results, but I'm still saving up for a nice force feedback wheel!!
I have the Ferrari Thrustmaster wheel on XB and I'm really thinking of upgrading to at least a TMX, seen good reviews on it and it's not too expensive. I'm still hesitant though, because I like the one I have... but then I see these guys on YT making a certain laptime, calling it "fairly decent" or even "not too bad" and I can't even get close to that... and end up thinking if it's the wheel holding me back or if I'm just a noob.
So this helped me feel a bit better. I just lost my first DD wheel (simagic Alpha u) to a power surge, my wife had gotten it for us right before she lost her job, I have just started getting fast lap times and started getting followers and likes, and now I'm worried this Logitech isn't going to let me drive the way my old wheel did... We're in no place to replace the wheel now, I just hope I can still drive the same because i felt alot in my wheel and I'm sad I'll prob never be able to replace
I use force feedback, but I don’t keep it all too strong. I have it just to catch slides and feel surfaces.
Back in LFS days there were aliens that used to run either FFB off or very muted with some damping, many still drive with similar settings in iRacing and other sims at a high level. FFB has always been an over rated effect.
Over rated effect? So when you drive a real car fast you feel like driving on a cloud?
@@LorenzoClara97 Yes and no. Some sims give FFB that doesn't actually exist in real life, but to give you an idea as to what the car is doing as a whole, as we don't have g forces in a sim rig, which can sometimes confuse the brain. Hence why some people work really well with FFB, and some don't. Real life you tend to only really feel wheel weight, torque from the weight of the car, kerbs and road surface as well as some minor vibrations from bearings/engine, etc. Some sims give out so many more forces just to compensate. Theres also the issue of FFB from a sim can be very robotic and choppy, something that doesn't exist in real life, so for some people, especially some whom drive actual race cars, can struggle with adapting to FFB as they aren't used to feeling particular forces through the wheel. No problem with FFB here, I highly rely on it, just not really black and white FFB = more speed. Depends on the individual. :)
LFS? Was absolutely in love with that game when younger. Keyboard & Mouse in the MRT and LX6 around South City was my life haha
I wouldn't call FFB overrated, but it's definitely depended on too much in some cases. It's possible to be just as fast with low FFB or with it off, but what the feedback does for me is improve my consistency and allows me to drive more by feel than visual cues. It's more an aid than a necessity. I practice at times with it low just to work on smooth steering inputs.
0 force feedback? No worries that'll just take my back to my gran turismo 2 days!
For a more level set test suggest single laps on track unfamiliar to you w each combination perhaps rotating all three then repeat each test to isolate performance .. amazing how fact your brain reacts as you noted .. still waiting for my combo from Fanatec .. my cockpit just arrived .. computer next week .. can’t wait to drive sim race tracks .. thanks again for your advice and enthusiasm!!
Hello, but using the ffb on the steering wheels nn you go to wear out the brushless motor?
I wonder if the motion simulator is what made it slower and you would be even faster with just the wheel FFB, just a thought
The FFB in ACC is good for catching the rear of the car and nice for immersion really good suspension compression, track detail and ABS vibrations and bumps.
But it's on no use for knowing what to do to hold the car at the limit as it lacks the SOP FFB you get in AC,AMS,RF2 it also lacks a range of FFB variation for how much grip you have instead the ffb just gets light after you have already gone over the limit , its a real shame is its one of the top aspects of AC1 / NKP / FVA and one of the big things that made those games really stand out to other simulators at the time.
Ironically due to how dynamic ACC tracks are (day night rain) it would benefit the most from having communicative FFB like AC as that makes adapting to the state of the wheels and trackway more intuitive and allows drivers to avoid overdriving by feeling the FFB rather than having to memorize everything or going by the visuals.
I have no force feedback, I am still usually either 2 seconds behind or just as competitive. My friends all have ff wheels. It’s weird how quick your brain and go just off audio and visual ques
This moment i have only the thrustmaster t80 (yes really) as backup wheel.... you can indeed drive with that (has 0.0 ffb or spring etc) but when you spin, you spin... Can't correct it than.... Today also they send me the DD1, so than is everything different haha, can't wait !
Learning so much from your videos thank you :)
What about drifting or driving a powerful RWD car in the rain? Would ffb not really help there either?
Do you feel your steering wheels rotation is right regarding the perception of over/understeer? Just watched an interesting vid by Kryptic TMG where degrees of rotation for his TM T300 wheel was changed within the wheels app as well as in ACC settings looking to get his feel and perception in agreement as well as the wheels sweep from lock to lock [which are the same problems I'm experiencing]. Strangely enough, he wound up with both numbers off of a 900-degree baseline more than you'd imagine as well as being pretty far off from one another before he was satisfied. Have you looked into, experimented, or tested for this phenomenon?
I’ve experimented with it a bit but usually I just set it so the physical rotation matches the animated rotation.
If you want to adjust how much the car turns per each degree, just set both wheel and ingame to 900 degrees so that the animation matches, and then just use the Steering Ratio setting under Mechanical Grip tab. Its there for a reason.
Hello ! Great video. I have a lot of money. I want a sim setup like you do. What processor, GPU & RAM do you use ?
Also please let me know the other hardware like monitors, wheel, pedals, shifters, etc. you are using.
Thank you.
You are the man buddy
i had a broken tx with no ffb and it wasn’t that bad
now im really confused, if i should buy thrustmaster t150, or just buy hori apex racing wheel
Not worth the money! I use an old, very old Logitech wingman formula force gp wheel. And I have b grade in Raceroom Experience. In simulation you have to figure out how the GAME works. Practising! If you practicing enough, you learn how the game works, and when you can turn the wheel. This is not real racing, not a real car, just zeros and ones in an algorythm. Just like a pattern. You have to follow the pattern and you will be fast in a track! Thats is. You have to always do the same - hit the gas, break, downshift, hit the gas. Like a railway. Everyone thinks equipment is important for sim racing. No! This is what companys want you to think! Because sim racing is not real, only a game. And a game is beatable if you practicing a lot. If you drive real cars in real life, you noticed racing games are way far from reality. FFB is the most overhyped thing in computer games history for example.
That was a little surprising. Wonder if it would be the same outcome on a track and car that you weren't so familiar with... I suspect FFB would help attune to things quicker.
Do basically, me using a cheaper wheel and being slow is on me and not the equipment. Damn 😂😂
Interesting challenge, I'm still using a G27 and I think with the complete lack of weight with a plastic wheel it would be really challenging to do (in a bad way). The FF is so weak with it, I need to use sound cues often in iRacing to know if I'm at the limit. I look forward to my upgrade next year. Quick question, I'm just about to get my "Class C Road". What are some good buys for cars/series that have good number populations? And is there any car I should stay away from?
I'm a C-class G27 user as well 😊 I'd start off in IMSA Michelin Pilot before you move to anything faster, I thought I could go straight from MX5 and Skip to F3 and Radicals but I was so far off the pace it wasn't funny. Good grid numbers most of the time in IMSA too. Don't bother with Pro Mazda, it's being replaced later in the year. Haven't tried any of the others to comment.
@@mc483 Excellent advice, thanks.
Calling for a refund tomorrow. 😂 I'm sure a lot of the immersion is gone but I'm surprised too at how well that went. 25+ years ago, before there where any wheels to speak of, let alone FFB wheels, a friend of mine and I made steering wheels that rolled up a bungy cord as you turned. More resistance but definitely not FFB. 😋 It was better then a joystick or a mouse though. 😉 the first FFB wheel that I got let me feel the tires coming unstuck and I was sold!
I believe good pedals are much more important than force feedback. Being able to use the break and throttle in a more realistic way will give you a lot more time. I myself am using a crappy old wheel without FF and I keep up with most of the people I race against. My performance hurts the most because the pedals are absolutely horrible and I have to use assists ingame to be able to drive with them. In comparison, I do drive my real car on trackdays so I know how to adjust break and throttle, also drove gocarts when I was younger, but the pedals I have to my wheel are just to soft so it's impossible to get any kind of feel with them.
I think you'll be able to drive just as quickly without FF if you just practise just as much as you have with FF.
So, I'd suggest you try with all the bells and whistles on but with the worst kind of pedals you can come up with and see how much worse you'll drive with them.
You forget to tell if it was fun and immersive.
Because most of people who like racing sim mostly enjoy it for the fun and the immersion.
And a DD wheel add a lot of those 2, for me I don't care if I am faster without FFB, it will be less fun for sure ;)
I swear I was hear yesterday and you’ve shot up 5k subs awesome job. Can I ask a PC related question?
In my experience, FFB is a compromise between catching slides vs acurate handling of the car. If you go high in one side you will go down in the other.
Apart from Iracing are your other racing games in steam?
Hey boosted what wheelbase and wheelrim do you use?
In this video I'm using a Simucube 2 Ultimate and Ascher Racing F28-SC
Is this a car you know well/ have a stable setup for? That will make a big difference too!
i am actually faster with no FFB, but with FFB is so much more fun.
Where can i put video ideas forward, as I have a really good one that I think everyone will love
In our discord community (link in description) on the #video-suggestions channel.
You just get used to whatever setup you have. I raced for 2 years with a Thrustmaster rubber band wheel with no ffb. When I first got a ffb wheel it took me forever to adjust because the fact the steering wheel was moving on it’s own was throwing me off and I kept crashing.
I think this just proves you absolutely do not need high end gear, wow
Have you tried Automobilista 2? I've heard really good things about it
Maybe after starting with the ffb helps the feeling or the cues for the last drive without it, should try a 5 lap with no ffb first.
I hope your rig was able to stand up to this kind of punishment as its never been through this kind of testing before.
Lol!
Great video, how ever i do think that it would have been a much more fair comparison if you did it on a track where you dont already have great experience.
And started with the no FFB first and got used to it, and then just did a few with everything on, to try and see if you can improve. Cos im pretty sure you would improve with a LOT after just 4-5 laps, and that improvement will still be there if you go back to the non FFB setup after those 5 laps.
Cos even if you dont have the same info with the FFB off at bathurst, you still have driven it so much that you know in your spine where the edge of the cars performance are, even with FFB off.
I honestly wouldn’t say I’m all that experienced with Bathurst. I’m still 5 seconds off the fast guys pace. But I do see your point.
@@boostedmedia Ah ok, ive watched quite a few of your videos last 2 weeks with reviews and stuff, and it seems like its often Bathurst :D
But you get my point right? That muscle memory and experience kicks in quicker than one thinks. I would be willing to bet money on that if you went in and did 20 laps on a new track with no FFB, and then went with FFB on for 5 laps on the same track, your time would improve quite a bit.
And that improvement will be carried over if you then go back to no FFB right after.
I saw a test like that but with a cheap wheel vs a DD wheel. And the improvements kept on when switching back. Meaning that you can still be just as good really, but finding that line, and having consistency is much harder to do. But its still possible.
When I'm getting 80, no FFB is really an option :D
What’s your final verdict on triples vs. VR?
th-cam.com/video/gJJb8TeKvRQ/w-d-xo.html my opinion hasn’t changed from this.
@Boosted Media Sorry, I didn’t realize you had already answered this question in a video. I will watch it! Thanks!!
4:98 Crazy that the natural thing feels unnatural and the artificial thing feels more natural.
It would be more interesting to go to a track you've never been to before and go without FFB first. Right now you can use familiar visual cues to help you find the limit.
You also need to turn off the shaker rig.
Now do it with my 20 year old wingman formula force gp... since I have to.
WFFGP race here! One of the best wheels all time!
Maybe it is as fast, but not as consistent
Hey mate. So I see people on Facebook are selling whole setups lately. Do you think this was just a phase for these people. I mean like 3g plus setups. Whole rigs and what not. Lot of money spent for just a phase.
Likely yeah. Was bound to happen.
It would have been good if you could have followed this up with a set of laps with the FFB turned back on. You had to focus on visual clues and more concentration with it turned off it would have been good to see if you went quicker than the target time as a follow up lap. Could be a useful learning tool if it made you quicker overall.
I did do a few laps but the times were the same so didn’t include it.
Then this whole experiment is surprising. You had better not let the wife see it. Actually on behalf of all of us, please can you delete this one. Keep the rest though as they are great and thanks for providing such good content.
how much power does your motion rig chew up?
Tomahawk_12 about 300W from memory.
it won't make you faster but it will make it easier to be faster and consistent, wich is just as important, maybe even more .
My guess is if you done the comparison the opposite way and went from no force first to normal last the results would be greater difference. Your brain could’ve done the laps with muscle memory by the end knowing where the braking markers are already, knowing already how the track feels in different parts so it fills the missing gaps. But if those gaps weren’t already filled... my guess which is just a guess lol
Nice experiment! but you already generated a number of reference points on that circuit when you drove with the feedback. without the feedback and reference points it would have been even more difficult. It's like playing the guitar with your eyes closed, it's not that hard to do once the muscle memory is built up. I guess learning to play without being able to see must be more difficult at first.
That's an ultra serious face you have when racing lol.
Lol
You should watch sim racers and how little they blink when cutting laps! I recorded myself recently and I literally only blinked when on a decent straight. Didn't even realize lol
If like me you've raced using a non ffb wheel back in the good old days, your brain has all that information locked way down deep in there, so i would think it would all come back to the surface after a while.
force feedback is a gimmick and is essentially the "steering assist" option in games re-branded. i compared the g29 with an old 2014 Thrustmaster and scored faster lap times in the latter... FFB is a placebo effect, like GSync (yes i have one of those monitors and it, again, is just in game VSYNC re-branded.
I was so fuckng fast without FFB in GLP.
When I started with GPL, GTR etc, my non ffb wheels were slightly faster or just as fast as my G25. FFB adds immersion and consistency, not speed imho.
In particular, countersteering was much more clinical (but obviously had to be done manually). With no FFB, your inputs end up very calculated
However, you obviously need a wheel designed to be non FFB in the first place! Switching off FFB on an FFB wheel is horrible
Maybe could have gone back and done a second run with FFB at the end to see if you got quicker then going back to using it.
I did but lap times were the same so didn’t include it
@@boostedmedia Nice to know though :)
i always hit the wall without ffb
If you take the average of lap times that would have told more of a story when comparing
Hmm no FFB is one of those topics that I’ve seen come up when talking about the fastest drivers, and this it’s here in the comments too.
I feel like though this was more prominent back a decade ago when sims were, say, less refined? Mind you I’m not a top level racer so can’t say that from experience
ACC BABY!
that's my life in game every single day :(
Likely the brain compensates more, and you are concentrating more.
Now try it with a logitech wheel and see how close your times are.. Think that wheel base is too good!
I have t80. No force feedback.. I'm A-S in gts
Just going to let this F here for all the people with fucked up FFB 😢♿♿
I don’t have force feedback and still run top 5 almost every race so this video is irrelevant
Your lighting is different every video
Unfortunately yes. these webcams are absolute garbage and change calibration every time the PC is rebooted. The same settings don't give the same results either. WIll be replacing them soon hopefully.
And that's without much practice with force feedback turned off.