How Impossible Is The "IMPOSSIBLE TURN"? | Special Guest?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 พ.ย. 2022
- The title says it all. I believe the impossible turn gets it's name because you can never pinpoint exactly where and when it will actually be possible. I set out to get a better idea of where it's safe and not safe to attempt it!
Enjoy the flight!
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I appreciate how you let everything happen as if you weren't there and then explain the better way afterwards. Great teaching method.
Thanks for noticing!
The real special guest here is Murph! He's right, you have deprived us of him for too long
The time to solo is a touchy subject as a CFI. My personal goal is to solo you as soon as practical, because I understand that time and money are a factor, but there's a huge disparity between people's personal abilities. I despise the 'if you're more than 20 hours, your flight school is taking advantage of you' attitude.There's so many factors that go into that decision: flying ability, situational awareness, communication, consistency, aeronautical knowledge, problem solving, etc. Ultimately, it doesn't mean anything if you soloed at 5 hours versus 50. An important thing for new student pilots to understand is that, as PIC, you're responsible for *practically* everything your instructor is on your dual flights as a solo student pilot. I think even a lot of instructors forget that sometimes.
Totally agree. Me and 2 friends got our pilots licenses at the same time. 1 of us probably could have solo’d on like day 3 (kinda joking but not really), 2nd needed 20-30hrs to get smooth with it, and the 3rd used up like 60hrs to get extremely comfortable with their abilities.
I would prefer slipping over adding more flaps. If you misjudge your altitude and find yourself low on the glide slope, reducing or stopping the slip seems much easier than raising the flaps. I feel like adding flaps is more of a commitment than slipping it in.
This is interesting because you’re not the only one in the comments that’s reluctant to use full flaps even with landing assured. Nobody is wrong and I love hearing your opinion man thanks for sharing.
Nope. You can remove the flaps all if you have the nose down as required with flaps. YOU have never done an engine quit on final with flaps ??
I rather slip too, because the controls the slip are already in your hands/feet vs having to physically reach flap controls for adjustment.
Great video! Makes sense if departing straight out, but most pilots turn crosswind at 500 feet AGL if doing pattern work or a downwind departure. I think it would be great to see a simulated power loss on crosswind leg and attempting to turn back.
Retired CFI of EFATO. If the runway is made, And you have a tailwind, you need full flaps. Yes, full flaps can be removed. I have done that many times when teaching engine quit on final. I learned Turnbacks from EFATO in 1998 from the CFI of Emergency LowManeuvering channel. He has a playlist with about 30 on diff airplanes.
So much to unpack in this one. I'm at the consolidation phase, solo flying ahead of navigation elements. Bounced landings happen, but none of mine have been on camera, so hats off to you for that. My first landing on a circuit bash with my CFI (UK so chief flight instructor) and my teenage son's first passenger ride with me was a bounced landing. I chose to save it on this occasion... I had space, wind was straight down the runway, and it was not so high that I felt it put us at risk. The wheels then touched down like butter (thank goodness) on the second attempt. We had enough room to touch and go. The remaining landings ranged from reasonable to nice. My son loved it, and said he was fine and desperate to go again (so thrilled!). My CFI said "right decision, great recovery". We included some engine out landings which for some reason I seem able to nail more often than powered ones... lol !
My instructors all challenge me regularly with announced and unannounced emergency drills. EFATO, engine out at different times in the circuit, when in the training area, etc. It has become almost routine. EFATO is interesting when comparing to what you are doing. Our procedure (C172S) is to pitch for 70kts, identify landing site (abort, return, field, etc), once on final to that site pitch for 65kts and use flaps only when sure you have made the chosen location.
Of course, being a C172 you don't have to worry. Just hoist the main sail, release the spinnaker and you can probably do a circuit before you have to worry anyway. :p
Look after yourself.
I was just like you Lew, got my PPL just under 100 hrs, and what I’ve learned is that it’s as probably best for me because of the additional knowledge and experience that I gained from those extra hours. I may have still been a student but the experience I gained was still flight experience gained. I do not regret it one bit.
I'm a current full time CFI and would like to chime in on the time to solo. FAR 61.87(d) describes the flight training that has to be done before a student pilot may fly solo. There are 15 items in this regulation that would be very difficult to cover to proficiency in less than 20 hours. Things in this regulation that many instructors fail to cover: (13) approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions and (14) slips to landing. I want to rest assured in the fact that when I sign a student off for solo, they are proficient in all the tools available to be safe.
We've got a cfi around here, solos students with 5-7 hours
Always a bit apprehensive watching videos about the impossible turn - but I think you nailed this one. The reason it's called "impossible" isn't because it always is impossible, but that "impossible" is a much better default for our brains when we are in that situation and are in any doubt whether it's possible or not! Too many stories of attempts that didn't make it, because they took the decision on the fly.
I love practicing power off 180s and 500ft AGL is pretty consistently fine with good margins, in most conditions, however in the summer months 500 feet is _much_ further away from the runway, so no chance (Poor old PA-28!). Really important to understand the conditions.
On the flip-side, in the winter (Can be -20) the last time I tried this I found it really hard to make it back to the runway without landing at the far end, since you are practically back on opposite-short-final after the 180 - pretty sure I just went around at that point (although likely would have stopped ok). Also a consideration, although in a real emergency getting wheels down on the end of the runway then rolling into the trees is probably still a viable choice, all things considered!.
Actually a very valid comment. Loosing 300ft, probably even more in a real situation with reaction time taken into account, before you realise you wont make it and then have to reassess your options on ~500ft.
Good to know I have a slight chanse in case it's the only option - otherwise I will continue to consider it impossible.
I flew with 2 different types of instructors: the old school type, big name in local aviation community, flown thousands of hours on the same aircraft which did not let me do slips with flaps. The younger, experienced in various types of aircrafts, ATPL guy who allowed me to do slips with 40 deg flaps. I guess the old school instructor read only the first part of that note in the POH.
Or the old school guy actually had a concept of price and cost and realize damaging the plane cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. Not something to do with students.
@@boogerwoodslips with flaps have nothing to do with damaging the plane. It has to do with blanketing the rudder and ailerons.
Love every video you produce man! Regarding your discussion at the end: I didn’t solo until 19 hours, but then it really clicked after that- passed my check ride on Oct 25 at 49 hours! NOW… I have MUCH to learn and this particular issue is of great interest to me. For 49 hours- including my check ride- I briefed emergency landing with engine out below 1,000 feet AGL to be straight ahead, 30 degrees left or right of center line, to start looking for a place to put it down. After this video, and with all of you “on this day under these conditions” caveats, I do think I have other options at the 700’ AGL point of crosswind turn to likely make the runway, and at 500’ AGL I may likely make it. Either way- this video is excellent, thought provoking, and something I would like to spend some time on myself! Thanks for all that you are doing for GA man- keep up the strong work!
Great to see these kind of vids again, sure there was some add'l revenue in the prior one but admittedly I was slowly tuning out. This stuff is what put you on the map. Useful content and hilarious antics, Murph at the end made it!
Yea man I’m trying to do more of this kind of flying. Sponsored videos keep my channel working, which I know not everyone appreciates but without that money I’d have to spend more time away from videos, and that’s not something I will accept. So if you can sit through a sponsorship here and there, I’ll keep the good stuff rolling 🙌🏻
Great video..thanks. About to test run a new engine in the 182….. so gives me a little more confidence on turn back heights in case we have a failure on our maiden engine flight coming up…..
Been a fan of your channel for a long time Lew - and I remember seeing Seth first appearing on your videos! Glad to see that he passed his check ride, well done.
Totally agree about how long it takes to solo too. I'm in the UK and I've just been lucky enough to complete my first solo circuit this week after 12 hours, but as you say the main thing is being safe and we've all got to look out for each other 👍
Thanks mate!
Wonderful teaching style! Enjoyed this video while wearing my new LewDix Aviation sweatshirt. Welcome to the sky!
Yesss! Thanks for supporting!
Congrats Seth! Arrrgg
I See Merph missed you too! Cant wait for another video with him
I had a engine out simulation on my checkride. I was about 700 AGL and just turned on the crosswind for 32. The DPE pulled the throttle and said "get me down". I picked runway 7. He knew I had it so he said "make it off by the 2nd taxiway". It was a 172S so it was easy. My current plane is a TB10 with a best glide speed of 86kts and loses 750fpm so it doesn't glide well.
Turning back below 500 AGL might still be preferable if there is clear/flat ground below/behind you in the direction of the runway, and esp if it's a long runway as you still may in fact be over it.
Unless perhaps there is a big headwind in which case landing groundspeed may be much lower continuing straight ahead - depending on obstacles of course.
Best to have all that mentally pre-briefed in your head before takeoff.
Really enjoyed this video. I too, want to become a Private Pirate. Wonder what ATC would think? Can see the look on thier faces now. LOL
Another great video, thanks!
Thanks!
12:39 jump scare @LewDix😂
If you even have the thought about slipping on this you made the runway.
My question is on the turn do you turn into or away from the head/cross wind?
Also, does density altitude play a factor on when this can be done? For example is it easier to make a runway at 500’ vs one at 7,000’? And or more density altitude ?
Great video!
Some people slip with no or partial flaps just to be able to exit the slip with no further energy loss if they feel they've overdone it. I would personally feel much more comfortable slipping to an emergency landing and putting flaps at the last moment. Once your flaps are down, there's no going back.
My response to that would be you only slip when you know you’re too high. In that situation you’re reasonably sure that you’ve made the runway otherwise how do you know you’re high? So for me, it doesn’t make sense to slip without adding the extra drag from full flaps. HOWEVER, there are more than just 1 way to fly so I appreciate your view!
@@LewDixAviation true, but if you’re still far away - the wind has a lot of time to push you around… and it may change with time and altitude… so who knows. I’m not that confident. Besides, having a slip in is kind of like having a break in your aircraft. You can always push it a little less or a little more to control energy dissipation. Feels nice and controllable ;)
As usual, first class instruction with the right amount of laughs! After all, we only lost an engine! No biggie! 🤯
We don’t even need an engine with the float characteristics of the skyboat!
It's shocking as a CFI how many private pilots I get that have never had an instructor pull their engine on them on takeoff. I agree about the hours issues people talk about. Most instructors only teach to pass the ACS, which results in a bunch of great paper pilots, but very few real world pilots.
Absolutely!
Unrelated to this video, but I just did my first solo! Thanks for the guidance Lewis!
Fantastic! Great achievement!
Hey! Those white flying eyes are cool. Might just have to try a pair.
I did, and I love em!
What is your audio setting? It sounds crystal clear 🎯 mine is very very low with hero 9 + I flight cable + go pro six adapter
Lew, how to train for the wtf just happened moment where we lose critical time making the decision ?
Ive read where someone is confronted with a partial loss of power so the pilot is challenged as to if they should turn back
I’d slipped many different Cessnas full flaps and never had a problem
Thank you Lewis, for calling the “departure leg” the correct name ❤ lol
Here is something to consider when deploying the flaps. Since flaps help the wing develop lift; that energy could be stored and used in the event the touch down was misjudged or in gusty conditions. I don't mean to say don't use flaps, but going full may be ill advised. I'm also making the assumption that mechanical flaps are used. I was asked during my seaplane check ride why I didn't use all the flaps. It was my ace in the hole since I "couldn't use power" to arrest the descent.
Yea I agree that in gusty conditions it’s better to land less than full flaps. I’m just of the opinion that if you’ve made the runway (which as pilots we should be able to judge that easily) then going full flaps makes more sense (conditions permitting) than slipping to bring the aircraft down faster. The extra drag is literally built into the aircraft for us to use with the flaps haha. I’m not saying that anyone is wrong for doing it differently, rather just find it very interesting the amount of people that are reluctant to go full flaps, even knowing the runway is made. Again I’ll stress, nobody is wrong for flying they way they are comfortable flying!
@@LewDixAviation I completely agree. Every situation/airplane is unique. I forgot to Thank You for the detail and explanation while putting this maneuver to practice. I'm of the belief of always learning. "But a good pilot...."🤣 Nice job!
@@FreedomfixerFlying Thank you my friend!
Great Video. I am working on my commercial and am struggling to hit the power-off 180's to commercial standards. I would love a video on commercial manuevers/power off 180 accuracy landings.
Great vid as always
I’ll see what I can do!
Be a bit fast to point, and cut the flaps from 3 feet. The 3 feet flap cut.
I have always taught save flaps 20+. The flaps are drag that you can not take back . A slip is drag that you can take out. If you realize the slip is not going to get it done then you can always add the flaps in.
You’re not the only one to comment that. Nobody is wrong as long as the landing is successful, however I think the key thing to remember in the video is that the runway was made when Seth decided to slip without full flaps. If you’re unsure of whether you’ve made it or not, then of course I don’t believe anyone should be extending to flaps full. However with the runway made and extra drag to gain from full flaps, it doesn’t make sense to me not to use them. It’s an interesting talking point that I didn’t expect to uncover with this video. I’m very interested in how other people do things because after all there are more than just one way to do things!
@@LewDixAviation You are right. if the runway is made. And you have a tailwind, you need flaps. and yes, full flaps can be removed. I have done that many times when teaching engine quit on final.
I had to do this with my instructor during my PPL training in a PA28. We got up to 500' and the power was pulled. He had me bank to 45 degrees and we made it back to the runway no problem
Great! Practiced under the right circumstances, I think it's a great thing to do.
Surprised. Cherokees and Warriors seem to usually glide about 15 feet over the ground for every 1000 agl
I don’t think this is a good technique. You are on the envelope of success or failure. Teaching folks what they can do is critical. Ensure that anything under 500’ is a straight in landing. I go for 1000’ before an immediate return to field. Altitude is your friend engine out.
@@edjarrett3164 My brief is always "below 1000 feet, look 30 degrees right and left for the best spot". There are too many variables to be 100% sure that you can make it back at lower altitudes.
Trashes Skyhawks, but uses one for its floating and glide ratio to attempt the unspeakable. In a nutshell, this is why we love this channel lol
I mean it’s my only convenient aircraft to choose from as someone ruined my favourite PA28 lol 🤷🏼♂️
@@LewDixAviation oh dear! I missed that! Just harassing you of course about the Skyhawk. 😊
Using a slip would allow for a quicker correction, than electric flaps,if you decided you were getting low too early.
What is the opinion of adding turn back altitude to personal mins? Won’t attempt turn back until ______ alt.
Yep. That’s on my brief before every takeoff!
Increased flaps decreases glide distance. I would think it better to ensure you can make the runway and then slip to bleed off airspeed.
I took 23.1 hrs rill I soloed, but that was my choice, I wanted to ensure I felt I was ready, and only flying 1 to 4 days a month, that is not so bad. Till I got my private Certificate i had 90.3 hours total time.
Personally I prefer slip. With the slip you can constantly adjust it if you’re short or long to make it in.
That way you don’t have to raise the flaps if you’re going to be short.
Slip it in and adjust the slip so you make the RWY.
Imho
Raising flaps should never be an option once you extend. My opinion. So, I’d only go full flaps when I know I’ve made the runway. Seth knew he’d made the runway, but chose to slip without full flaps because of the note in the POH. I just think the benefits of a full flap slip make more sense. But of course we all do things differently, and no way is the wrong way if the a landing is made 🤷🏼♂️ unless the landing is upside down 😂
LewDix. Try this. In the 172, power idle, Full Flaps and pitch for 65kts. Compare that against a slip.
I mean, that’s normally what I aim for so I’ve tried it many a time!
The POH clearly says "should be avoided" which clearly means you can do it, but you might have the elevator oscillations. The German POH says exactly the same thing, you should not but you can.
Always been amazed how many stowaways you can have in the 172 and have go unnoticed
As far as elevator oscillations with full flaps I have only noticed when you are in the slip then add full flaps. If you have full flaps then slip the oscillation has not been noticed
Interesting.. I’ll have to try that and see if I get the same result
@@LewDixAviation I don't know if its also based on AOA. I only would notice if I have a pretty steep nose down then add flaps
You're comment towards the end Lewis, is sooo true and totally relates to me and my flight training
Keep pushing my friend!
2 bounce go around instantly. However in this case his engine is dead so as long as you are on the ground who cares right!? haha Next time on "Impossible turn" We never get the plane off of the runway and have to power slide it into a 180 before the end of the runway! Stay tuned.
I just searched the POH for my training aircraft (Sling 2) and found that there was NO mention of anything to do with slipping with flaps. Should I assume you can do them, or can't.
Assume you can unless there’s an explicit prohibition
So were we climbing out at Vx, Vy, or faster? Seems like an important detail to mention, or did I miss it. Also, what bank angle?
Vy, not Vx. But climbing at over 800 fpm or dont turnback if no engine. 45 band at just under Vglide. Always turn toward a crosswind. Use flaps and slips if. Cut mixture if real emergency and you are high. CFI.
If you're wearing a "Welcome to the Sky" hat, no turn is really all that impossible!!!
I wonder what is the altitude loss in a 60° steep turn back, wish you tried that at 1000ft.
They would have overshot the runway by a mile or two
Careful not to stall in that steep of a turn.
Glad top gear made a short appearance. Rrrr, we pirate pilots love to sail...down the runway in a Cessna!
Eyy, 200th like today 🫡
Legend
In a real life engine failure i would prefer to slip and only use flaps when i’ve 100% made the runway. Much safer imho.
Absolutely agree you should only be slipping when you’re sure you’ve made the runway. What’s in question is slipping with 10 degrees of flaps rather than adding more flaps. The runway was made in this video. Interesting to hear people’s opinions but I agree with yours.
I soloed at 9.8 hours.
#bringbackmurph! 😂
Did he get his Private Pirate License yet?
Worlds smallest front tire
How much worse is the performance with the propeller stopped, hmm?
I’m not gonna test that
It's better. A windmilling prop creates drag. If fact when you really need max glide, you should slow the aircraft til the prop stops, and then increase back to best glide speed. But - if you are trying to restart by changing mixture, etc, then maybe better to windmill.
Good video. I didn’t know it took you almost 100 hrs to get your PPL. I used to like the content here until I just learned you’re a mediocre instructor. I used to love the phrase, “welcome to the sky,” but I think I will find a better CFI who says, “welcome to the ground.” I mean, anyone can take off in a small plane - landing the thing is always better. Sooo disappointed….by the way, I soloed on my “introductory flight.”
😂 All hail the king of aviation!
@@LewDixAviation Ha! Seriously, keep the videos coming!
Ridiculous, this in no way simulates an actual engine out.
No, Alan. The only way to get the full experience is to actually stop the engine. Doesn’t take a genius to understand why I wouldn’t want to do that in flight.
This is great info for all of us pilots Lewis. Thanks a lot for the effort!
Thanks man!