It's not a direction we like to see hardware move towards. But If this is the direction competitive keyboards move towards, we want to make sure we offer the tools you need. Ps. Nice case😎
@@j.d.4697 To be fair, I have had a Razer Huntsman TE keyboard since 2020 and I have never had an issue with the hardware The software needs improvement, though
@@j.d.4697nah, my huntsman v2 is aluminium and works flawless since over 2 years now. also it was cheaper than wooting. but yea, my next one might be a wooting aswell
SOCD (Simultaneous Opposing Cardinal Directions) was a major topic of conversation (and rule-setting) in the FGC, thanks to leverless controllers becoming the new thing. I think that Wooting's implementation looks fairly comprehensive, so you will be able to set it to whatever rule is allowed for whatever situation, which makes sense to me.
Thats what im saying 😂 keyboards just getting hip on SOCD cleaning and its variations. Haute x cosmo, hitbox any leverless has it, with ez interfaces to change the mode Ab to buy a gb2040 and make my own keyboard or input conversion api… although latency Ps: they wont ban this, its just actually better programming
@@julianjolts5050 it isnt a macro? Its just a different method to register input from the device driver All it does (or rather doesnt do) is register an input when two buttons are pressed. No magic
@@nerbuhc It does register an input, when you can hold 1 button and spam the other, idk, that's programmed as a strafe stop strafe stop strafe stop in most games. Not to mention Help with AD spamming should be considered carefully considering that strafing momentum is a pretty big factor in tac shooters. (And CS has now banned it for that reason)
@@TappedWalnut a null input is not an input to a computer, where as “a+d” would be an actual input and then handled by the game developers. Which is why in some games they do their own cancelation when two directions are pressed simultaneously or take last input (ie a to d would register d) A null input is literally sending no signal to the computer via driver
I applaud this man. 5 minute video that does not try to dilute the video for extra view time, he even gives you a recap in case people missed the discussion, and it's still less than half the length of what you'd see from other TH-camrs.
They were 100% sitting on the update until someone one upped them since they said they didn't want it to go too far, but once someone did they released it.
Credit to Wooting for a fast release and supporting older keyboards! Devs of competitive games geared at realism will just have to implement inertia-like physics to make such motion impossible (or be lazy and put input delay on rapid opposing motions).
Wooting, Razer and other companies probably has the same Chinese company making these for them, so these features are always there or atleast possible to implement, had they thought of it, Propably not the same but definitely chinese.
@@2.5k_ping56 This is a software feature, not a hardware one. That's why these binds have been available in CS and TF2 for years. Any keyboard can detect key presses, therefore any keyboard can have snap tap by prioritising the last input key press. This is a software feature, not a hardware one. As it is not hardware based, it has nothing to do with the 'likely Chinese' manufactiring companies that make the physical keyboards/components.
yeah strafing that fast is pointless. the head hitbox is basically just bigger at that point. usually want to go a bit wider and random in OW. counterstrafing in CS is a big deal though. i mean i wont get a wooting, been able to counterstrafe for 10 years but crazy that 10 years of practice is as good as someone starting tomorrow.
The fact that wooting asked their community to make sure it was something they wanted, when they could have just implemented the software to compete with razor, is why they’re more than just a keyboard company.
Oh come on, it was a quick and simple twitter poll. And even if they implemented without asking, the user still had the freedom to choose to use it or not.
@@JohnnyBoy-sy8jt well the fact they bother with a twitter poll in the first place is noteworthy. don't see much of that going on anymore. it's either accept the feature or fck off
We have keyboard beef since Wooting is out basically, since it caused major debates in Osu, but Wooting was so niece that it didn't matter much. Forwarding to now, Osu banned Wooting and the Razer stuff too. The beef will only get worse, trust me. More brands will hop onto this 100%
"May cause Razer to pull the feature" - that would not do anything, cat is out of the bag now. You can even now download and install this feature to any open source mechanical keyboard.
@@MiningdragonLP If razor keyboard gets you banned, maybe they need to do their research before buying it in the first place instead of bitching at something they bought that is clearly advertising that feature.
bro this feature is older than 10 years and you could always make it with a pretty ez makro... but you could get banned for it but wont now bc in the keyboard thats the diffrenze
this snap tap thing just highlights something I've thought about overwatch since OW1 beta - that the player's ground accel is way too high. in something like quake or most other source games like CS there's a period of acceleration/deceleration when pressing/depressing a movement key before you hit max speed or stop fully, but OW has almost instant ground accel slower ground accel values would fix this null movement issue in OW since rapid AD spam would mean you barely move since you don't immediately hit max left/right speeds, just like in quake/tf2/CS
Its an integral part of overwatch's movement system, it's been talked about before and in general people like the feel of it more than say tf2's movement
@@47ndrant42bro you are absolutely capping lmao. TF2 still has the best movement of any shooter. TF2 will still be actively played long after Blizzard cuts the cord on OW.
This makes me think that Wooting already had the code at least a little ready, but wasn’t sure about the community response from implementing something like that
They had most of it already before Razer, but Razer is obviously a way bigger company so Razer could push a concept out instantly once they got wind of it.
Probably, it's also not that much different of a functional difference from how wooting already works, they probably just had to add a stop line to previously pressed keys instead of just prioritizing the furthest pressed down
They already had it in discussion and their community was asking for it, but it got mixed response within the community; hence their "toned down version". But since Razer just straight up released it, Wooting did too. SOCD isn't a new concept, it's been out in the fighting controller scene.
Last Input Priority SOCD has been a thing in fighting games for about a decade now. Games coming out in the early 2010s were not designed with SOCD in mind, and holding, for example, left on the dpad and right on the analog stick allowed you to block both directions in some games. A lot of developers started to make engine-level changes to how inputs are read in-game to prevent this from being a thing, since you obviously can't ban the controller the console comes with. All-button controllers, which are basically keyboards under a different name (like the devices made by Hitbox or the Snackbox) had hardware level SOCD solutions, but they worked the way the Huntsman and this Wooting solution does. Capcom recently ruled that Street Fighter 6 won't allow last input priority SOCD anymore, and a lot of controller manufacturers had to update the firmware for their devices to allow for the new standard that SF6 demands (which, for the record, is that two opposite direction inputs cancel each other out and it acts as if you're pressing nothing).
They did not work like the wooting and razer. Standart SOCD cleaner was L+R=Neutral and D+U=Up. Diffrence that SF 6 wanted to do D+U=Neutral too. And that wasn't the norm.
@@Besend522 Pretty sure standard SOCD before SF6 was last input priority. Hence why they called Hitbox cheatbox. And why Daigo had a lot of fun playing Guile in SF5.
I thought SF6 does the SOCD game side regardless of what the controller input is, no?? Would there be any problems if CS wrote into the game that pressing A + D = no input?
Thats what CS does, holding opposing directions cancel each other out but the controller is a level above the game because its what is sending inputs for the game to interpret so if its cleaning those inputs already all the game sees is a perfect string of strafing inputs. Funny enough ive played a lot of FPS games over the past 2 decades and most 90% of them had Last Input Priority at a game level and the kind of stuff being shown in these videos was pretty common to do, especially in the games that didnt have strafing deceleration/acceleration so its been kind of funny to see them make a come back and acting like its some revolutionary thing.
Crazy how the FGC had to figure out a way to handle SOCD before and now FPS players have to figure out the same issue! History repeats itself I suppose.
Thing is, no one and I mean literally no one was using SOCD cleaning tech in fighting games to any noticeable effect, casually or in pro tournaments, and games have long since moved on from allowing you to do things like being able to block and move forward at the same time while holding opposite cardinal directions. The whole thing was just a reactionary outcry by content creators and their gremlins really. AFAIK only Capcom Pro Tour specifically requires that your up + down cleaning is set to neutral (which is actually counter to a standard that's been around for decades, where up + down = up). This doesn't seem similar though, it's a landmark innovation that greatly eases what had to be done before through pure fine motor control, and movement is an obviously universal element in fps whereas SOCD cleaning tech is incredibly situational
@@ram_apologist Street fighter made the SOCD rules because a ton of japanese pros were switching to hitbox or leverless devices and they wanted to standardize the inputs across the devices. Its interesting that they banned devices that behave like these new keyboards and went with opposite directions canceling out. This kind of SOCD cleaning seems to be a new pay to win exploit that removes the skill from strafing...
@@ram_apologist thats not true, certain socd options have been neutralized now. Like Up+down = up does not work for sf6 which instead is up+down=netural. So they did deem certain aspects of socd cleaning to be unfair. i guess if game devs wanted to patch this for fps L + R when held would just cancel the input out and youll just stand still (this is what marvel rivals does, interestingly enough)
either you ban it entirely or you let everyone have it by allowing scripts (or implementing it in the game in the first place) as a feature locked behind expensive hardware it's a bit wasteful and unfair
@@Ohrami It's literally a form of SOCD cleaning, as the SIMULTANEOUS pressing of 2 CARDINAL DIRECTIONS (these being left and right) are being filtered so that only the most recent input is recognised.
@@tommihommi1Yep, thankfully either way is easy for CS since source games have always had null-cancelling scripts available. Removing the hardware barrier is critical especially for f2p e-sports titles which are supposed to be a level playing field with low system reqs and such.
SOCD was a bit deal in the FGC as well. When Hitbox released their version of a fightstick controller, it definitely turned heads that SOCD was a thing since it used sanwa buttons instead of a joystick for movement.
Which is only a good thing that's also great for accessibility. All button controllers are definitely beneficial and more efficient similar to using Vim not having to use a mouse to code
In Apex, this feature completely kills lurchless strafes. It's a super duper niche tech - you hold both, A and D before jumping, then you release the key you don't want to strafe to. This creates the smoothest strafe ever, preserving tons of speed. Compared to jump, pressing A or D (lurching), which changes your flight direction and loses you speed.
Oh no, we going through the Hitbox SOCD drama again. The history repeats itself, fighting game players faced this exact tech quite some time ago, and only now its getting to keyboards.
Yeah lmao. I'm like "well it's just SOCD 2IPNR on the razer and SOCD D1P on the wooting". Nothing new under the sun but holy moly it's going to cause drama
It'll only become drama if the pros start using it. It's been possible for years, just like it was a thing with hitbox for years before the drama started. Pros are slow to adopt new things, so we'll see how long it takes.
To he fair, fighting game players relied on lever muscle memory, and the new button based layouts were a completely new set up. This isn't completely changing how you interact with your controller, its just a pure improvement
I think this one will be a real pain because of how many people will take any advantage they can get to feel "better" then others in games, especially competitive ones. This is realy accessible to those types of ppl to just throw money at a problem and get a "better" keyboard that just has a straight up banned cheat built in I worry for casual gamers having to deal with this and it becoming common, it also just looks realy janky in games because it isn't how you're supposed to move
Just updated my Wooting60, from the very first couple batches. now THIS is software and customer support. DAMN. Any other company would ask us to buy another keeb for this, but nope. Wooting said "here it's yours. Thanks." I love my wooting.
SOCD cleaning/handling has been around for at least a decade in arcade controllers. This isn’t super new, it’s just a keyboard implementation of last input wins SOCD cleaning found in all button controllers. The FGC has created many rules on how this is handled - usually on a per game basis.
Avid CS guy here - if you aren't good at counter strafing, you'll notice it almost immediately. However, if you already know how to properly counter strafe, you'll see diminishing returns for how impactful these features are. The biggest thing for me was buying a wooting. I went from feeling clunky in my movement to feeling like I have pixel-level precision in-game. Setting the actuation point of my switches was well worth the investment itself. I could have gone for the steelseries option at the time, but bought a wooting instead. All too say, it's just my experience, currently sitting at ~2200 elo on faceit.
Heard that Steelseries is implementing this as well. This have never been about the technology behind it and it has existed for years. Keyboard manufacturers are just afraid to step over a line and be accused of adding built in hacks. Macros through their software is already pushing it quite a bit.
@@somedaquimeuif you’re truly in comp gaming where this matters you have the money for a wooting. Also if you’re poor there’s bigger issues in gap than keyboards lol
@@Hjalteetwtefugkcl gaming has always been pay to win so i don't know why now when keyboards have built in performance enhancers people are starting to call it pay to win
@@shadowyyCFH To a degree, yeah. A $50 mouse is gonna be better than a $5 mouse because it just tracks better. I do agree though and I honestly don't get what the big deal is. Counter-strafing in a game like CS, while an important skill, REALLY isn't make or break for the skill of a player. It's honestly one of the first skills you master in a game like CS and just by playing the game.
In theory a keyboard manufacturer can mechanically connect the A and D keys via a rod so that both keys cannot simultaneously send input. At this point it would not be software automation but a physical limitation of the keyboard. Would this still be considered "cheating"? I think the better option is for games to introduce a momentum mechanic if they don't want people to instantly make directional movement changes.
Or you could just make your own keyboard with that feature, just putting it the buttons you need and wiring the keys in a way that it does this (it's pretty trivial to do this with some relays). Could even wire it up nicely so it's all hidden in the backplate and looks 100% legit, software is all normal, nothing suspicious
The problem with not allowing this change is forever judging skill based on overcoming primitive mechanical limitations of keyboard design. With the hardware and software changes, the skills will develop to be creative in design, with the new full control available. It's like removing a cast and being able to run. We can't just force people to wear casts because that's how its always been done.
No, not really, you could update the software sure, but it wouldn't actually work the same/provide the same effect. The reason it works is because these keyboards have hall effect sensors (analogue) switches means you can do this extremely quickly. This effect wouldn't be as effective on keyboards without these switches because it's harder to physically activate and release / reset the switches quick enough. He explains this in the other video he did. That's why you're only seeing this on hall effect sensors (analogue) switches. Edit; changed original post, referenced optical switches when I meant magnetic / hall effect.
Yes, but it wouldn't be as effective without the analogue input. Why? Because the analogue keys also send the strength of a button press; which means when the first button is pressed down you could press the next key harder (assuming your first finger isn't bottoming out) without moving your finger on the first button. (Speculation) This could probably lead to a technique people only have to move one finger to strafe left and right rather than using two fingers by keeping one finger pressed half way with the other controlling the direction.
Is there a reason for this to not be built in into the game engine itself(Not counting games where it's supposed to be a mechanic)? I have messed around with platformers and this seemed like the default way to handle movment.
@@alexcampauHallothThe thing is null-cancelling doesn't really affect the skill ceiling of CS the same way it does in a game with much more varied movement like TF2. Counter-strafing is a skill floor issue not really a ceiling issue, and lowering that floor is always a good thing imo.
@@JericCampsYou can't spam as fast on a non analog keyboard without rapid trigger, but the null bind part could be implemented in game just fine. All it means is that when you press a directional key, the opposite input is automatically ignored, instead of the two inputs cancelling out.
@@JericCamps When you have your left key pressed and then you press the right one the game can interpret it as a command to go right even though you have both keys pressed, no hardware issue there. You can make any two mutually exclusive commands this way like left and right or jump and crouch.
@@crimnvL You can literally fire up a comp match of CS2 right now and use null binds with any keyboard, my guy. They aren't banned in Ranked/Premiere at all.
@@R.D.Hoffmanthink he’s talking abt esports, and maybe faceit. Mfs full on spin and rage hack in comp and premier and don’t get banned so shit like this don’t matter
In your last video about razer I impulse bought the huntsman. Next day I did more research found out about wooting. Loved the fact that the software was all through the browser, no bloatware like razer. I looked into wooting and was really impressed by there devs. Immediately canceled my razer and ordered the wooting lol. Now I know I made a good decision because these guys literally just pushed this feature out as an update within just a few days. As a dev my self, says an insane amount about the devs at wooting.
As someone who plays FGs, and has a home built stick that has to adhere to pretty strict SOCD rules, all this is going to do is cause games to implement momentum, or clean your inputs (like in FG's so A + D is neutral). Not sure how long this edge will be around.
I don't see a problem with this. It's not like this is a macro where the keyboard is generating new inputs. It's just a different method of handling the user's keypresses. The way most keyboards handle inputs is more of a technical limitation than a deliberate competitive mechanic. The only way this can even be an issue is if a developer was depending too much on only having one kind of keyboard and didn't design the game appropriately for variety.
Game engine problem. If you don't want perfect strafing, have an upper limit to momentum switches. In other words, DESIGN YOUR GAME, game designers. This isn't a problem in APEX. (Which is ass for other reasons).
This should just be the default behavior for games. I remember trying hard to implement a feature where pressing opposing directional keys would cancel out movement only because all other games have done so. It's actually easier to just use the latest keypress
@@joel6376 the problem is that in CS, stopping instantly is an integral part of the game, but it's supposed to be skill-based, by timing your inputs right. having decel on all movement just totally removes that part of the game.
@@Arithryka "it is supposed to be skill based", because it was intentionally coded that way or because the way the game has been coded means you gain a significant advantage if you exploit the mechanic? Sounds like it's important only because people have gotten used to it being important. CD does seem to attract people who love to min-max and learn mechanically straining 'skills' that require a real obsession to learn.
They replied to me in their latest video on their channel saying “It’s in production.” Ngl, im hyped asf. Been holding off on the Wooting for a while now waiting on this collab. 😤
I think rapid trigger not activating on the Razer keyboard while Snap Tap is activated is a HUGE deal that you 100% should have talked about. I am able to do some nasty peeks on the Wooting because of rapid trigger + SOCD. I don't understand why Razer have such an issue with getting rapid trigger to work flawlessly.
@optimumtech I usually buy ducky one 3 tkl keyboards because i love the kailh brown box switches and always get them if they are in stock, and when not I go with cherry mx blue switches since the kailh browns are rarely in stock. Do you think I would hate the razor huntsman v3 or wooting switches if I hate linear reds? I have a huge mechanical key test kit of switches and only love the browns and blues are 2nd place in my book but I'd love a keyboard with snap tap but I don't know how their switches compare to cherry mx or kailh brow/blue/red.. I really hate reds.
@Wooting how do your switches compare in feel to the cherry mx or kailh browns, blues, and reds? I love kailh box browns and blues are my 2nd go to if I can't find a good keyboard with browns when i need a new one. I've been buying duckys but their keyboards go bad within 4-7 months use usually with lots of random keys having extra activations and what not. I feel like i would hate the razor optical switches because i hate the feel of linear red switches. so far kailh box browns are my fav because they are super stable no matter where you press and I love the feel of a mx/kailh brown switch.
i had ducky one 2 and one 3 sf, both with browns, I really like the switches on the wooting, having a bump like the browns wouldnt make sense even though i like browns
@gunnimikki I think I'll order the wooting. I realized they probably can't add the snappy happy setting to the kailh keys because the don't measure distance it just triggers at a partular point in the travel
i don't really care about this feature past an academic level, but this does make me want to get a Wooting for that crazy forwards compatibility. absolute Legends.
Ugh we've already had this whole conversation in fighting games. Capcom specifically bans last priority SOCD, for example. We're likely to see similar rules come into effect for other genres.
@@zdkama Companies follow the tactics and practices of the bigger fish. From Apple removing the headphone port to everyone following suit, to Logitech making lighter mice with the creation of the G Pro and starting the race to make the lightest mouse.
I'm a casual gamer and don't play the games in question. But is the idea of a keyboard prioritizing the most recent input really so crazy? I actually had to stop for a second and think "is that not how they currently work?" Why is there some (apparent) unwritten rule that keyboards have to ignore subsequent input until the first one is released? I get that this kinda breaks games that rely on that concept. But maybe their entire competitive balance shouldn't have relied on a subtle keyboard actuation design?
The way it works on standard keyboards, is if you're pressing D to move right and then start pressing A to go left, the game will see you pressing both A and D to move both left and right, so they cancel out and you stop moving. The way this works is that if you're holding D, and then start pressing A, it will immediately stop sending the D press to the game so you instantly start moving to the left, even though you're technically still holding both keys down.
@@comradeklaymore I mean yeah, I understand how it works. I'm saying I don't get why it's a big deal. If I press a button on any device, I usually want it to register immediately. And all this feature seems to do is recognize that the old inputs are "stale" and to prioritize this new one. Which seems like good, responsive design. Not nefarious or underhanded. If an individual game decides it breaks their gameplay, they're obviously free to blacklist these devices. But as I said, seems like poor game design in the first place.
@@peaksix_ I 100% agree. This is why, as said in the video, the majority of casual shooters (and other competitive titles) won't see much benefit from this besides slightly more responsive inputs. For games like CS, with long-established competitive scenes, the phrases 'poor game design' and 'high skill ceiling' are basically interchangable and depend on perspective. I think keyboards like this should become more popular if only to force game designers to make their basic elements like shooting, movement, and aiming mechanics less exploitable.
No inputs are being ignored by default - you press a key and it registers. The change made by Razor is that pressing A ignores D, and pressing D ignores A. This is something that ONLY applies to the A and D keys. For example if you press A and S, you want both of them to register. If you press A and space, S and D, Ctrl and W, whatever other combination, you want them to both register. The only exception is A and D, where you want to "unpress" the other key. For every other key combination, you want keys to register when you press them. No games are broken by this concept, in fact as the dude said in the vid, people were already using scripts that do exactly this - unpress A when you press D, and vice versa. But having scripts that manipulate multiple keys with one key press is usually banned in most competitive games. There's actually a ton of other scripts that are banned, and there are many keyboards with macro functions which can do null binds among other things. It has nothing to do with actuation design, it's multiple inputs with a single key press, which has be banned in practically all competitive games for decades.
@@UC9o5XrlWjXFOZayVA5JCXcgThe easy solution here is to just change the game so that it overrides contradictory inputs. Not only would that be fair for everyone, since everyone would get it, but it would probably make the game better overall.
Ive been looking at getting one but not when it means waiting months to receive it. It now says I wouldnt even see it shipped till october if i ordered now. I will probably wait until they are readily available like the 60he
@@ZAYaa2 wdym? it literally has barely any features, except rapid trigger, 0.1 actuation, look at wooting with multiple features, snap tap, etc.. wooting added the feature that razer added with the strafing feature in under 24 hours.
If I am understanding this correctly, a keyboard feature like this is not banned because it is a function of how the keyboard reports key states. It is not some magic script or program that automates anything. This is still human input. There have been keyboards in the past that did similar things with reporting keystrokes (or the way that some keyboard reported keystrokes and the way games interpreted them when holding A and tapping D for instance).
You should play around with “Alternate fully pressed behavior” enabled. Arguably, the most powerful thing released wasn’t SOCD but a setting of SOCD: Alternate fully pressed behavior. It’s almost like auto counter strafing. Check with an input monitor what effect a slow and a fast press have when the other direction is held. ;)
NO WAY. You know what’s crazy … I saw the razer keyboard get this snap tap tech and went and ordered a wooting anyway. Why well reviews, company is so good , and quality of software. It arrived today and this video came out LOL so i missed out not even on the razer tech haha.
There is no "skill ceiling" that is being lowered, the skill floor is simply being raised to what it should have always been. An issue of our hardware that causes an inconvenience can only be called a "skill" for so long.
SOCD - simultaneous opposite cardinal direction - this is a concept that start with leverless fight stick controllers(ie hitbox) nothing specific to wooting but that is pretty interesting to see them implementing this.
@@35pmiko67 Logitech has absolutely terrible customer support, so he was making fun of them. Kind of a jab at Logitech since Wooting is so much better with listening to the community.
I think any pros and competitions that want to ban it are genuinely silly, because we optimise everything else in video games from hardware to ingame settings, to get the fullest out of the game for ourselves. Why the hell shouldn’t we optimise simple inputs like forward, backwards, left, right movements. It’s not even close to cheating in my opinion, like does it give you a speed boost? No, doesn’t it give walls? Hell no, it’s just a faster response time. It’s like saying having a high dpi on your mouse is cheating which is stupid.
I don't get why people are talking about this being banned by tournaments..: It's just that it used to be (and still is) the norm to have overlapping inputs. Imagine if it was normal from the beginning that a keyboard only counts the most recent key pressed - we wouldn't even be talking about this. With a conventional keyboard you essentially had to work around the programming of the firmware by lifting the first pressed key in order to allow the more recently pressed key to activate. So essentially conventional keyboards are just limiting what you actually want to to (and can do, it's just arbitrarily harder because it became the norm *by chance*). Now translate that to mice: What if you were only allowed to use a trackball mouse because "it's the norm" and everybody has to work around the inherit disadvantages of it. Wouldn't it be silly to then ban laser and optical mice from competition because they, at the end, resemble the desired user input more correct that than the trackball mouse? A 'debate' like this, if we can even call it such (I hope people just get the sillyness and don't even start), is just fueled by conservative bias in the sense of "if I had to essentially trick my keyboard into accepting the last pressed key, so do you". We have to overcome this...
I dno, you do make some good points but it's obvious not all keyboards will have this any time soon. I mean it's not an inevitable development like the laser mouse cuz I don't see these kind of keyboards becoming standard any time soon. also I think it's kind of like driver aids in F1, they could make a car that pretty much drives itself, a computer can do things like shifting braking and traction control far better than any human could. traditionally though all these things are part of the skill set needed to compete. think this is very similar. sure this last input stuff is technically better at doing what you want but it undeniably removes an element of skill from the game.
There's a difference between adopting a new technology that more reliably reads your inputs (laser mice), and a new tech which reads the same inputs but outputs different results. This is just erosion of a mechanical skill which has been a part of the genre since the start. It reduces the skill disparity between players which is the antithesis of competitive gaming. If a new game wanted to implement this in code then that would be fine, but this changes how all games play. Fighting games dealt with this, and now fps games will have to as well.
@@zwenkwiel816 This last point is what I mean by conservative bias: We are just used to jumping this hoop since keyboards haven't changed much in the last decade. Objectively speaking though, there is no kind of assistence or inherit advantage when it comes to these knew keyboards. Sure, in the sense of strafing it's definitely less effort relative to before, but you could just as well make the point that it removes the short instance of standing still when switching directions which could be desired (maybe in other circumstances) as well - and achieving that would now require more effort as you'd have to lift off both keys on the 'new keyboard'... So it really goes both ways, just what is deemed "better" is decided simply by what used to require more effort before and is easier now, not even taking into consideration the other effects or even if it's an inherit advantage at all but rather a more direct input that just advances as the rest of the technology (e.g. 8000hz etc.). In the case of racing there's been no stick-shift for ages but nobody is complaining now since paddle shifting has become the norm; you're still deciding your gears and think about all the timing and whatnot - simply the "hoop-jumping" of guiding the stick-shifter through the (predeterminde by the car manufacturer) gear pattern is eliminated which doesn't take away anything from what the driver has to know and account for but rather streamlines the process, yielding better results on a whole... ...not relative to others...
@@n00b1n8R I get that original point but it's simply the case that keyboards came like we're used to them by default for decades - still nobody conciously decided that a double input should interact with the game like that. It's simply *chance* that the gaming mechanics have hardened that way. If the original keyboard manufacturer took a different approach we might be discussing the exact opposite right now, how it might be 'unfair' if both inputs were discarded as soon as we press another key... It's the same with wireless mice for example: Before you had to make sure the wire doesn't manipulate how you use the mouse, you were only able to perform a certain movement for a fixed distance or you'd get stuck; at least you had to change your gamestyle in a way that is compatible with what the mouse allowed for. Now, that we have wireless mice, the same input from a farther glide outputs different results than before (where you couldn't move anymore after a certain distance). Stil, you'd be ridiculed if you saw a problem with this. We can't make something a problem on this basis alone but rather on what we're actually changing. In the case of the mouse it's simply an arbitrary hinderance we were forced to adapt around because the technology had nothing better in store. If nowdays we prefer to play with a really low dpi without having to lift off the mouse pad often, we can do that nowdays but in the past we simply couldn't. The inputs were determined and locked by the technological limitations. And it's the same with the keyboard now. Simply just because of how the firmware was coded we were forced to lift the figer off of the first key in order to have the next key registered. This technological limitation has now been fixed, that's all. I mean, with the logic of input-output we could also ban N-Key Rollover keyboards as they give a different output when pressing more than 6 keys at a time than a 6-Key Rollover board... You see, this is once again just the "I had to do it that way, so you have to too" bias..!
I would just like to congratulate you guys on showing whoever looks at this thread what a good adult back and forth debate on an issue looks like. I really enjoyed reading the different views here.
thats what you get for buying a razer product. they are the most mid company out there. if you are looking for quality products then the only thing razer is actually good at is mice.
@@7448CHRIS that doesnt matter this feature can be made possible for every keyboard softwareside (there is a reason why there is alrdy a makro out there that can be used for every keyboard)
For online gaming, it's impossible to ban this. It's happening on the hardware level. And it's straight up illegal for games to scan other programs (such as the drivers+support app) running on your computer. This can only be banned at in-person events where they can control what software and hardware is allowed to be used.
If you do the exact same thing with software that does not post to your operating system as an "input device" it will be cheating and you might get banned. This is ONLY not "bannable" because the code is either executed on the Keyboard and then sent through the "input device" channel or using the device certification to run the code on the local machine beacuase it runs through the driver channel for input devices. The outcome is the exact same for all of these methods to achieve this sort of "input filtering", which is what this is. Your inputs don't get "cleaner". They get filtered, to achive the most radical movement. That is the goal of these lines of code, no matter where they get executed. It's like Mouse acceleration, but we don't talk about that because it's mostly useless in relevant games.
i dont think we should call this "harmful" cause we want to gate keep the mechanical input of a button release being something players need to spend hours and hours "mastering". at the end of the day each action in game still takes a manual action by the user. the keyboard isnt deciding when to stop your movement. you still are. it isnt aiming for you. you still are. it isnt a cheat its just an easier input. and if anything that makes games more accessible and is a good thing. i think some of yall just have a high hourse about how much you practice a skill and want to gate keep it.
Honestly, if the player is still doing the inputs, then it's just an evolution of hardware that should eventually become a standard. A better gaming mouse will give you more accurate inputs, a better monitor will give you lower input lag, and a better keyboard will give you more accurate key presses. Plus, this feature is something that could be implemented with software, even just in the game itself, so if they don't ban people for using it just make it available for everyone. I think the only thing to do to make if more fair is make it so you can't just hold A and tap D for strafes, make them release the key and press both
Biggest dog shit development. Who though this would be a good idea? Now every keyboard will get this feature and devs will either decide to block any wiggle advantage from their games, or everyone will use this feature. The people who don't have this feature are either buying hardware with it, or stop playing the game, because they don't want to face an unfair disadvantage. Really dark days for FPS gaming.
It's not a direction we like to see hardware move towards. But If this is the direction competitive keyboards move towards, we want to make sure we offer the tools you need.
Ps. Nice case😎
Good job Wooting
(definitely not a Wooting x Optimum case collab or anything)
lol
W wooting
We're SORRY! We're sorry... Sorry~~
Can I get a kb, I still have a g pro with missing keys and romer switches :( hahah you cant score if you don't shoot
So moral of the story is get a Wooting keyboard if you want almost a decade of support.
But why when you can just buy overpriced Razer plastic that falls apart within months?
@@j.d.4697 To be fair, I have had a Razer Huntsman TE keyboard since 2020 and I have never had an issue with the hardware
The software needs improvement, though
Just get a QMK keyboard, it has snap tap coming soon
@@j.d.4697nah, my huntsman v2 is aluminium and works flawless since over 2 years now. also it was cheaper than wooting. but yea, my next one might be a wooting aswell
Or steelseries
Wooting about to release a diss track next
😆
Woo-Ting Clan
They not like us!
"WooTing - click clack smack"
my friend, you just won the internet today
SOCD (Simultaneous Opposing Cardinal Directions) was a major topic of conversation (and rule-setting) in the FGC, thanks to leverless controllers becoming the new thing. I think that Wooting's implementation looks fairly comprehensive, so you will be able to set it to whatever rule is allowed for whatever situation, which makes sense to me.
Thats what im saying 😂 keyboards just getting hip on SOCD cleaning and its variations.
Haute x cosmo, hitbox any leverless has it, with ez interfaces to change the mode
Ab to buy a gb2040 and make my own keyboard or input conversion api… although latency
Ps: they wont ban this, its just actually better programming
@@nerbuhcusing a macro isn't just “better programming”. That's like saying a Cronus Zen isn't cheating because it just has better programming 💀
@@julianjolts5050 it isnt a macro? Its just a different method to register input from the device driver
All it does (or rather doesnt do) is register an input when two buttons are pressed. No magic
@@nerbuhc It does register an input, when you can hold 1 button and spam the other, idk, that's programmed as a strafe stop strafe stop strafe stop in most games.
Not to mention Help with AD spamming should be considered carefully considering that strafing momentum is a pretty big factor in tac shooters.
(And CS has now banned it for that reason)
@@TappedWalnut a null input is not an input to a computer, where as “a+d” would be an actual input and then handled by the game developers. Which is why in some games they do their own cancelation when two directions are pressed simultaneously or take last input (ie a to d would register d)
A null input is literally sending no signal to the computer via driver
I applaud this man. 5 minute video that does not try to dilute the video for extra view time, he even gives you a recap in case people missed the discussion, and it's still less than half the length of what you'd see from other TH-camrs.
All TH-camrs should do things this way.
I hate watching TH-cam videos at 2x but I don't have a choice, time is expensive
That's because the dude is rich anyway and doesn't care about the video's revenue
@HoutarouOrekiOsu Compared to many other TH-camrs that tend to milk their videos, Optimum is like a minimum wage employee.
@@user-ke1gn3ql1g what? his income doesn't depend on TH-cam at all
@@HoutarouOrekiOsuOut of curiosity, what is his main income source ?( if youtube revenue isn’t his most profitable one)
This is why Wooting is such a premium company, its not just an amazing keyboard, its an amazing team of developers
Fr
They were 100% sitting on the update until someone one upped them since they said they didn't want it to go too far, but once someone did they released it.
10000000%
My next keyboard will absolutely be the 80HE and I cannot wait to get the money to buy one
Yessss!!! I have a TWO HE and legit, no better keyboard.
@@jamescruz8678razer better cope and seethe 😂😂😂
Credit to Wooting for a fast release and supporting older keyboards!
Devs of competitive games geared at realism will just have to implement inertia-like physics to make such motion impossible (or be lazy and put input delay on rapid opposing motions).
most games don't support what this truly is for.
Or they could not bother since this is fine.
Counter strike has this. Thats why this feature breaks the game lol
Wooting, Razer and other companies probably has the same Chinese company making these for them, so these features are always there or atleast possible to implement, had they thought of it, Propably not the same but definitely chinese.
@@2.5k_ping56 This is a software feature, not a hardware one. That's why these binds have been available in CS and TF2 for years. Any keyboard can detect key presses, therefore any keyboard can have snap tap by prioritising the last input key press. This is a software feature, not a hardware one. As it is not hardware based, it has nothing to do with the 'likely Chinese' manufactiring companies that make the physical keyboards/components.
Luckily in overwatch jittering doesn't matter cause hitboxes and projectiles are the size of trucks💀
yeah strafing that fast is pointless. the head hitbox is basically just bigger at that point. usually want to go a bit wider and random in OW. counterstrafing in CS is a big deal though. i mean i wont get a wooting, been able to counterstrafe for 10 years but crazy that 10 years of practice is as good as someone starting tomorrow.
@@newp0rtagreed. Cs and valorant, it is a huge buff. But regardless I’ve played with it a week and can’t go back to normal game.
o_o
Hahhaha literally laughing my ass off at this one
Bros clearly bronze 😂
The fact that wooting asked their community to make sure it was something they wanted, when they could have just implemented the software to compete with razor, is why they’re more than just a keyboard company.
Oh come on, it was a quick and simple twitter poll. And even if they implemented without asking, the user still had the freedom to choose to use it or not.
Still the simplest things like asking for opinion is what makes a company more understanding@@JohnnyBoy-sy8jt
@@JohnnyBoy-sy8jt well the fact they bother with a twitter poll in the first place is noteworthy. don't see much of that going on anymore. it's either accept the feature or fck off
@@JohnnyBoy-sy8jtthese bots be glazing wooting hard like a religion at this point 😂
@@JohnnyBoy-sy8jt yeah, the reason of the poll is just for draw attention of the competition. Its a great move
We got keyboard beef before GTA 6
We have keyboard beef since Wooting is out basically, since it caused major debates in Osu, but Wooting was so niece that it didn't matter much.
Forwarding to now, Osu banned Wooting and the Razer stuff too.
The beef will only get worse, trust me. More brands will hop onto this 100%
@@takuya3194 osu! didn't ban wooting, only some specific settings.
@@takuya3194 osu! didn't ban wooting, only some specific settings
@@takuya3194if I remember osu didn't out right ban wooting or razor but they banned dks which was being abused
I failed my parents before gta 6
"May cause Razer to pull the feature" - that would not do anything, cat is out of the bag now. You can even now download and install this feature to any open source mechanical keyboard.
Well yes, but if a razor keyboard gets u banned u gonna blame razor not the script u downloaded
@@MiningdragonLP If razor keyboard gets you banned, maybe they need to do their research before buying it in the first place instead of bitching at something they bought that is clearly advertising that feature.
I would like to try it where can I download?
Link broski
bro this feature is older than 10 years and you could always make it with a pretty ez makro... but you could get banned for it but wont now bc in the keyboard thats the diffrenze
this snap tap thing just highlights something I've thought about overwatch since OW1 beta - that the player's ground accel is way too high. in something like quake or most other source games like CS there's a period of acceleration/deceleration when pressing/depressing a movement key before you hit max speed or stop fully, but OW has almost instant ground accel
slower ground accel values would fix this null movement issue in OW since rapid AD spam would mean you barely move since you don't immediately hit max left/right speeds, just like in quake/tf2/CS
Yep
Its an integral part of overwatch's movement system, it's been talked about before and in general people like the feel of it more than say tf2's movement
Its not a problem its what makes overwatch overwatch
@@47ndrant42bro you are absolutely capping lmao. TF2 still has the best movement of any shooter. TF2 will still be actively played long after Blizzard cuts the cord on OW.
This makes me think that Wooting already had the code at least a little ready, but wasn’t sure about the community response from implementing something like that
I think they did. I heard they were working on SOCD first but scrapped it but I havent fact checked that
They had most of it already before Razer, but Razer is obviously a way bigger company so Razer could push a concept out instantly once they got wind of it.
Probably, it's also not that much different of a functional difference from how wooting already works, they probably just had to add a stop line to previously pressed keys instead of just prioritizing the furthest pressed down
I don't think they neccesarily did, it's very simple code that you could probably make with ChatGPT if you wanted to.
They already had it in discussion and their community was asking for it, but it got mixed response within the community; hence their "toned down version". But since Razer just straight up released it, Wooting did too. SOCD isn't a new concept, it's been out in the fighting controller scene.
Last Input Priority SOCD has been a thing in fighting games for about a decade now. Games coming out in the early 2010s were not designed with SOCD in mind, and holding, for example, left on the dpad and right on the analog stick allowed you to block both directions in some games. A lot of developers started to make engine-level changes to how inputs are read in-game to prevent this from being a thing, since you obviously can't ban the controller the console comes with. All-button controllers, which are basically keyboards under a different name (like the devices made by Hitbox or the Snackbox) had hardware level SOCD solutions, but they worked the way the Huntsman and this Wooting solution does. Capcom recently ruled that Street Fighter 6 won't allow last input priority SOCD anymore, and a lot of controller manufacturers had to update the firmware for their devices to allow for the new standard that SF6 demands (which, for the record, is that two opposite direction inputs cancel each other out and it acts as if you're pressing nothing).
They did not work like the wooting and razer. Standart SOCD cleaner was L+R=Neutral and D+U=Up. Diffrence that SF 6 wanted to do D+U=Neutral too. And that wasn't the norm.
@@Besend522
Pretty sure standard SOCD before SF6 was last input priority. Hence why they called Hitbox cheatbox. And why Daigo had a lot of fun playing Guile in SF5.
I thought SF6 does the SOCD game side regardless of what the controller input is, no??
Would there be any problems if CS wrote into the game that pressing A + D = no input?
Thats what CS does, holding opposing directions cancel each other out but the controller is a level above the game because its what is sending inputs for the game to interpret so if its cleaning those inputs already all the game sees is a perfect string of strafing inputs.
Funny enough ive played a lot of FPS games over the past 2 decades and most 90% of them had Last Input Priority at a game level and the kind of stuff being shown in these videos was pretty common to do, especially in the games that didnt have strafing deceleration/acceleration so its been kind of funny to see them make a come back and acting like its some revolutionary thing.
keyboards: work as intended
everyone: oh, that's cheating
Crazy how the FGC had to figure out a way to handle SOCD before and now FPS players have to figure out the same issue! History repeats itself I suppose.
FPS already dealt with this just not on such a mainstream face. Nulls have been around in tf2 and cs for 20+ years.
Thing is, no one and I mean literally no one was using SOCD cleaning tech in fighting games to any noticeable effect, casually or in pro tournaments, and games have long since moved on from allowing you to do things like being able to block and move forward at the same time while holding opposite cardinal directions. The whole thing was just a reactionary outcry by content creators and their gremlins really.
AFAIK only Capcom Pro Tour specifically requires that your up + down cleaning is set to neutral (which is actually counter to a standard that's been around for decades, where up + down = up).
This doesn't seem similar though, it's a landmark innovation that greatly eases what had to be done before through pure fine motor control, and movement is an obviously universal element in fps whereas SOCD cleaning tech is incredibly situational
@@ram_apologist Street fighter made the SOCD rules because a ton of japanese pros were switching to hitbox or leverless devices and they wanted to standardize the inputs across the devices. Its interesting that they banned devices that behave like these new keyboards and went with opposite directions canceling out. This kind of SOCD cleaning seems to be a new pay to win exploit that removes the skill from strafing...
@@ram_apologist thats not true, certain socd options have been neutralized now. Like Up+down = up does not work for sf6 which instead is up+down=netural. So they did deem certain aspects of socd cleaning to be unfair. i guess if game devs wanted to patch this for fps L + R when held would just cancel the input out and youll just stand still (this is what marvel rivals does, interestingly enough)
ngl i was about to comment about this
steelseries just added their version called "rapid tap"👀
It's not the same
@@codejunki567it is. Only on their analog keyboards though
how
1 million views in less than 20 hours.
This is how serious the story is.
It is all the sweaty redditors gold novas hoping to rank up
and 4 days later its still at 1.1 million
@@krizi4970 viral ahh
@@madarab gold nova is like average rank, I feel the only people that say the sweaty gold novas are people who are literal vegetables
@@firedoom4848 brother, they're talking about people that are average but still sweat the games. They know it's average, that's the point.
number of refunds for the Razer huntsman gotta be diabolical bro ☠️
shame the wooting only has a 60% then
@@user-mx2cr7zq2d It has a full size too, with an 80% coming.
Fr 💀
@@user-mx2cr7zq2d there is 60%, 80% and 100% wooting keyboards.
@@user-mx2cr7zq2d still waiting for the 75%
In fighting games they have fairly clear rules about SOCD after years of people complaining about it. I think that could still happen with these.
either you ban it entirely or you let everyone have it by allowing scripts (or implementing it in the game in the first place)
as a feature locked behind expensive hardware it's a bit wasteful and unfair
This isn't simultaneous opposite cardinal directions, though. It's actually literally the exact opposite.
@@Ohrami no this is literally SOCD cleaning.
@@Ohrami It's literally a form of SOCD cleaning, as the SIMULTANEOUS pressing of 2 CARDINAL DIRECTIONS (these being left and right) are being filtered so that only the most recent input is recognised.
@@tommihommi1Yep, thankfully either way is easy for CS since source games have always had null-cancelling scripts available. Removing the hardware barrier is critical especially for f2p e-sports titles which are supposed to be a level playing field with low system reqs and such.
Imagine how insane a combo with this new update and his custom mouse would be
Wooting also has "whichever key is pressed further" priority, because of the magnetic switches.
I don’t see why you would ever use that. It would be almost exactly the same as normal. Remove any advantage essentially.
Unless I'm wrong the raze keyboard also have the magnetic switches, so it's just implementation details
@@andyvirus2300 Razer has optical switches
SOCD was a bit deal in the FGC as well. When Hitbox released their version of a fightstick controller, it definitely turned heads that SOCD was a thing since it used sanwa buttons instead of a joystick for movement.
Which is only a good thing that's also great for accessibility. All button controllers are definitely beneficial and more efficient similar to using Vim not having to use a mouse to code
I love how fast you get these videos out. They’re both quality and a great source for information
In Apex, this feature completely kills lurchless strafes.
It's a super duper niche tech - you hold both, A and D before jumping, then you release the key you don't want to strafe to.
This creates the smoothest strafe ever, preserving tons of speed. Compared to jump, pressing A or D (lurching), which changes your flight direction and loses you speed.
Oh no, we going through the Hitbox SOCD drama again. The history repeats itself, fighting game players faced this exact tech quite some time ago, and only now its getting to keyboards.
Yeah lmao. I'm like "well it's just SOCD 2IPNR on the razer and SOCD D1P on the wooting". Nothing new under the sun but holy moly it's going to cause drama
It'll only become drama if the pros start using it. It's been possible for years, just like it was a thing with hitbox for years before the drama started. Pros are slow to adopt new things, so we'll see how long it takes.
To he fair, fighting game players relied on lever muscle memory, and the new button based layouts were a completely new set up. This isn't completely changing how you interact with your controller, its just a pure improvement
@@CorrosiveCitruspros already seem to be using it. Razer already has a list of endorsements on their site talking about the feature.
I think this one will be a real pain because of how many people will take any advantage they can get to feel "better" then others in games, especially competitive ones. This is realy accessible to those types of ppl to just throw money at a problem and get a "better" keyboard that just has a straight up banned cheat built in
I worry for casual gamers having to deal with this and it becoming common, it also just looks realy janky in games because it isn't how you're supposed to move
Just updated my Wooting60, from the very first couple batches. now THIS is software and customer support. DAMN. Any other company would ask us to buy another keeb for this, but nope. Wooting said "here it's yours. Thanks." I love my wooting.
I was on the fence about getting a wooting for months but after seeing how they respond to their customers I ordered one
@@tday8214the second I get a pc that’s the first keyboard upgrade I’m getting fr
@@tday8214 Excellent decision, I would do the same but I am a student and I don't have the money. Please enjoy it and take care of it for me.
Only 4 days for another Optimum video??
That's a new record! Thanks Wooting!
He actually showed us a sneak peak at an earlier version this wooting board in the Snap Tap video and we had no idea.
The CS community is now experiencing what the FGC has been bitching about since 2010 with the Hitbox.
I know right. I literally saw this and initially thought this was an old video because I've heard so much of this from the FGC
cs has had this since 1.6
@@cherichurrocherry Counter strafing has been around forever, but keyboards making it easier to do have not.
@@Arbakos paying extra for a keyboard that does something a free script has been doing for decades is a pretty good aretart tax ngl
@@cherichurrocherrywhat is a aretart tax
SOCD cleaning/handling has been around for at least a decade in arcade controllers. This isn’t super new, it’s just a keyboard implementation of last input wins SOCD cleaning found in all button controllers. The FGC has created many rules on how this is handled - usually on a per game basis.
SOCD cleaning with "all button controllers" is a contentious topic and HAS had ruling by judges / TOs within fighting games.
Avid CS guy here - if you aren't good at counter strafing, you'll notice it almost immediately. However, if you already know how to properly counter strafe, you'll see diminishing returns for how impactful these features are. The biggest thing for me was buying a wooting. I went from feeling clunky in my movement to feeling like I have pixel-level precision in-game. Setting the actuation point of my switches was well worth the investment itself. I could have gone for the steelseries option at the time, but bought a wooting instead. All too say, it's just my experience, currently sitting at ~2200 elo on faceit.
Meanwhile at Steelseries HQ: "Oh yea! Let's add another ad tab in our drivers!"
Heard that Steelseries is implementing this as well. This have never been about the technology behind it and it has existed for years. Keyboard manufacturers are just afraid to step over a line and be accused of adding built in hacks. Macros through their software is already pushing it quite a bit.
I love this dilemma of "who's gonna get banned first".
Só basically poor people wanna players that wants to get better and not having a delay while playing being considered cheaters?
@@somedaquimeuif you’re truly in comp gaming where this matters you have the money for a wooting. Also if you’re poor there’s bigger issues in gap than keyboards lol
@@Hjalteetwtefugkcl gaming has always been pay to win so i don't know why now when keyboards have built in performance enhancers people are starting to call it pay to win
@@shadowyyCFH To a degree, yeah. A $50 mouse is gonna be better than a $5 mouse because it just tracks better. I do agree though and I honestly don't get what the big deal is. Counter-strafing in a game like CS, while an important skill, REALLY isn't make or break for the skill of a player. It's honestly one of the first skills you master in a game like CS and just by playing the game.
@@somedaquimeuwe talking about tournaments.
As a competitive gamer, you can tell how torn optimum is by this...
its literally hardware cheats
@@mike-gt8yo So is having a higher HZ monitor or using a Scuff controller
@@mike-gt8yonah…just technology moving forward
@@britbongj Watch the video again
@@britbongjhaving a higher hertz monitor isn’t anywhere close to this. I hate seeing this argument.
In theory a keyboard manufacturer can mechanically connect the A and D keys via a rod so that both keys cannot simultaneously send input. At this point it would not be software automation but a physical limitation of the keyboard. Would this still be considered "cheating"? I think the better option is for games to introduce a momentum mechanic if they don't want people to instantly make directional movement changes.
Or you could just make your own keyboard with that feature, just putting it the buttons you need and wiring the keys in a way that it does this (it's pretty trivial to do this with some relays). Could even wire it up nicely so it's all hidden in the backplate and looks 100% legit, software is all normal, nothing suspicious
The ol' wooting one up.
4:19 didn't think I'd here optimum say "perky" today
isn’t it "per key"?
the issue you mention at 2:20 is actually the reason i will probably go with wooting. thanks for that info
The problem with not allowing this change is forever judging skill based on overcoming primitive mechanical limitations of keyboard design. With the hardware and software changes, the skills will develop to be creative in design, with the new full control available. It's like removing a cast and being able to run. We can't just force people to wear casts because that's how its always been done.
Drunkdeer also announced their Last Win feature to Rapid Trigger Plus like a month ago which is basically a Snap Tap, so more keyboards will come.
Yep, it's like nobody know's. I just hope they implement it in their previous keyboards too!
@@innovance3788They will according to their Twitter posts
Can't pretty much any keyboard do this if the manufacturer would provide an update to the firmware or via a driver update?
Yes
it's really no different from running software on the PC to do the same thing, except of course a bit harder to detect by anticheat.
No, not really, you could update the software sure, but it wouldn't actually work the same/provide the same effect. The reason it works is because these keyboards have hall effect sensors (analogue) switches means you can do this extremely quickly. This effect wouldn't be as effective on keyboards without these switches because it's harder to physically activate and release / reset the switches quick enough. He explains this in the other video he did. That's why you're only seeing this on hall effect sensors (analogue) switches. Edit; changed original post, referenced optical switches when I meant magnetic / hall effect.
technically yes, any keyboard can benefit from null binds but analogue switches are gonna benefit more
Yes, but it wouldn't be as effective without the analogue input. Why? Because the analogue keys also send the strength of a button press; which means when the first button is pressed down you could press the next key harder (assuming your first finger isn't bottoming out) without moving your finger on the first button.
(Speculation) This could probably lead to a technique people only have to move one finger to strafe left and right rather than using two fingers by keeping one finger pressed half way with the other controlling the direction.
Is there a reason for this to not be built in into the game engine itself(Not counting games where it's supposed to be a mechanic)? I have messed around with platformers and this seemed like the default way to handle movment.
I think it’s hardware level stuff because in regular keyboards you have to wait for the switch to reset mechanically
increase skill ceiling prob, movement is a huge component of skill in any fps
@@alexcampauHallothThe thing is null-cancelling doesn't really affect the skill ceiling of CS the same way it does in a game with much more varied movement like TF2. Counter-strafing is a skill floor issue not really a ceiling issue, and lowering that floor is always a good thing imo.
@@JericCampsYou can't spam as fast on a non analog keyboard without rapid trigger, but the null bind part could be implemented in game just fine. All it means is that when you press a directional key, the opposite input is automatically ignored, instead of the two inputs cancelling out.
@@JericCamps When you have your left key pressed and then you press the right one the game can interpret it as a command to go right even though you have both keys pressed, no hardware issue there. You can make any two mutually exclusive commands this way like left and right or jump and crouch.
0:23 Foreshadowing the optimum wooting 60he case i see...
Surf has been using nulls for almost two decades in counter strike 💀
TF2 has been using null binds for a decade+, and null inputs have been used in CS since 1.6 with basic .cfg edits
and bannable in competitive play
@@crimnvL You can literally fire up a comp match of CS2 right now and use null binds with any keyboard, my guy. They aren't banned in Ranked/Premiere at all.
@@R.D.Hoffmanbut do they work?
@@R.D.Hoffmanthink he’s talking abt esports, and maybe faceit. Mfs full on spin and rage hack in comp and premier and don’t get banned so shit like this don’t matter
I knew the second this was released wooting would roll out an update. They are so far ahead as they are not chained down by big approval processes.
In your last video about razer I impulse bought the huntsman. Next day I did more research found out about wooting. Loved the fact that the software was all through the browser, no bloatware like razer. I looked into wooting and was really impressed by there devs. Immediately canceled my razer and ordered the wooting lol. Now I know I made a good decision because these guys literally just pushed this feature out as an update within just a few days. As a dev my self, says an insane amount about the devs at wooting.
Great video! Who makes those gray keycaps that you have on the keyboard though? 2:25
What keycaps are you using on the wooting? Those are sick!
Waiting for my monitor to get the wall hack software update
Awesome video! When is the custom Wooting 60HE video coming?
As someone who plays FGs, and has a home built stick that has to adhere to pretty strict SOCD rules, all this is going to do is cause games to implement momentum, or clean your inputs (like in FG's so A + D is neutral). Not sure how long this edge will be around.
I don't see a problem with this. It's not like this is a macro where the keyboard is generating new inputs. It's just a different method of handling the user's keypresses. The way most keyboards handle inputs is more of a technical limitation than a deliberate competitive mechanic.
The only way this can even be an issue is if a developer was depending too much on only having one kind of keyboard and didn't design the game appropriately for variety.
You’re corny if you buy into this
@@LB-np5zv no he is right. This is totally only how a keyboard detects your movements nothing to do with automation etc....
still creating a discrepancy between people owning such a keyboard and people that dont, so its kinda is an advantage that you paying money for.
can't steelseries also put this out with an update?
Probably will, at least I hope so. I’m the apex pro, so. I’m really hoping for it
Probably but why if they can sell you new keeyboard lol
@@Rampancy_ The apex pro didn’t have rapped triggers, so they implanted that in later on. So I see no reason for them to not do it for this too
its definitely possible for them to do, and i highly doubt that they will miss out on this
@@Frame2 nice!
Game engine problem. If you don't want perfect strafing, have an upper limit to momentum switches. In other words, DESIGN YOUR GAME, game designers.
This isn't a problem in APEX. (Which is ass for other reasons).
Couldn’t you just accomplish this same end result by using a macro or is the hardware necessary for the end result?
This should just be the default behavior for games. I remember trying hard to implement a feature where pressing opposing directional keys would cancel out movement only because all other games have done so. It's actually easier to just use the latest keypress
And if they don't want this having decel on movement stops players instantly changing direction, which was normal in the past.
@@joel6376 the problem is that in CS, stopping instantly is an integral part of the game, but it's supposed to be skill-based, by timing your inputs right. having decel on all movement just totally removes that part of the game.
@@Arithryka Yes, and perhaps going forwards that isn't a good design choice.
@@Arithryka "it is supposed to be skill based", because it was intentionally coded that way or because the way the game has been coded means you gain a significant advantage if you exploit the mechanic? Sounds like it's important only because people have gotten used to it being important. CD does seem to attract people who love to min-max and learn mechanically straining 'skills' that require a real obsession to learn.
Having the program edit your inputs shouldn't be the norm.
where can i get the Wooting from ur video? (grey fading keycaps)
im trying to find where too, please notify me if you find out
+
it is unreleased collab Wooting x Optimum, will be avalible somewhere in the future, no date yet.
@@doo0mstar Imma jump on it as soon at it get released ngl
They replied to me in their latest video on their channel saying “It’s in production.”
Ngl, im hyped asf. Been holding off on the Wooting for a while now waiting on this collab. 😤
yeah when I saw the video on the razer keyboard I was like "wait isn't this what already happens in fighting sticks for fighting games with SOCD?"
I think rapid trigger not activating on the Razer keyboard while Snap Tap is activated is a HUGE deal that you 100% should have talked about. I am able to do some nasty peeks on the Wooting because of rapid trigger + SOCD. I don't understand why Razer have such an issue with getting rapid trigger to work flawlessly.
@optimumtech I usually buy ducky one 3 tkl keyboards because i love the kailh brown box switches and always get them if they are in stock, and when not I go with cherry mx blue switches since the kailh browns are rarely in stock. Do you think I would hate the razor huntsman v3 or wooting switches if I hate linear reds? I have a huge mechanical key test kit of switches and only love the browns and blues are 2nd place in my book but I'd love a keyboard with snap tap but I don't know how their switches compare to cherry mx or kailh brow/blue/red.. I really hate reds.
@Wooting how do your switches compare in feel to the cherry mx or kailh browns, blues, and reds?
I love kailh box browns and blues are my 2nd go to if I can't find a good keyboard with browns when i need a new one. I've been buying duckys but their keyboards go bad within 4-7 months use usually with lots of random keys having extra activations and what not. I feel like i would hate the razor optical switches because i hate the feel of linear red switches. so far kailh box browns are my fav because they are super stable no matter where you press and I love the feel of a mx/kailh brown switch.
i had ducky one 2 and one 3 sf, both with browns, I really like the switches on the wooting, having a bump like the browns wouldnt make sense even though i like browns
@gunnimikki I think I'll order the wooting. I realized they probably can't add the snappy happy setting to the kailh keys because the don't measure distance it just triggers at a partular point in the travel
i don't really care about this feature past an academic level, but this does make me want to get a Wooting for that crazy forwards compatibility. absolute Legends.
I cant find the SOCD setting for my wooting and its on the newst version , where to find it
same ://
Guys you need to install the beta firmware for wooting. Google wooting beta, it's a different website than the normal one.
you need to use the beta version
I saw the keyboards from NuPhy have the same features as this one. I was wondering if those keyboards are any good?
how is this a bad thing, getting used to bad tech is not a skill, this is like 1080P but blurry is more "skillful" when 4k is available.
Ok, waiting this feature in all China magnet keyboards next month for half of the price.
they are not rly that much cheaper but thes are worse so i dont see why you should buy one instead
It will still be expensive because of the need for analog keys.
@@ghoulbuster1 We already have Attack Shark K85 with cheap OUTEMU Hall magnetic switch
Just download the script and use that on your current keyboard, that easy
@@99999MoN how
Ugh we've already had this whole conversation in fighting games. Capcom specifically bans last priority SOCD, for example. We're likely to see similar rules come into effect for other genres.
Can this be effectively detected? If not, there's no point in banning it.
@@Dionyzosno, because the software never sees more than one input. Because the SOCD inputs are cleaned before they are send to the PC/Console
Y tho? X company banned Y is not a reason Z company should also do it. It's just a thing they did.
@@ktrieun yes because they never see more than one input
Do you understand how difficult it would be to have no overlap as a non cheating player
@@zdkama Companies follow the tactics and practices of the bigger fish. From Apple removing the headphone port to everyone following suit, to Logitech making lighter mice with the creation of the G Pro and starting the race to make the lightest mouse.
Can you please post a link on where you got the base board customization? I like the frame and I wanna do this to my Wooting
I'm a casual gamer and don't play the games in question. But is the idea of a keyboard prioritizing the most recent input really so crazy? I actually had to stop for a second and think "is that not how they currently work?" Why is there some (apparent) unwritten rule that keyboards have to ignore subsequent input until the first one is released? I get that this kinda breaks games that rely on that concept. But maybe their entire competitive balance shouldn't have relied on a subtle keyboard actuation design?
The way it works on standard keyboards, is if you're pressing D to move right and then start pressing A to go left, the game will see you pressing both A and D to move both left and right, so they cancel out and you stop moving.
The way this works is that if you're holding D, and then start pressing A, it will immediately stop sending the D press to the game so you instantly start moving to the left, even though you're technically still holding both keys down.
@@comradeklaymore I mean yeah, I understand how it works. I'm saying I don't get why it's a big deal. If I press a button on any device, I usually want it to register immediately. And all this feature seems to do is recognize that the old inputs are "stale" and to prioritize this new one. Which seems like good, responsive design. Not nefarious or underhanded. If an individual game decides it breaks their gameplay, they're obviously free to blacklist these devices. But as I said, seems like poor game design in the first place.
@@peaksix_ I 100% agree. This is why, as said in the video, the majority of casual shooters (and other competitive titles) won't see much benefit from this besides slightly more responsive inputs. For games like CS, with long-established competitive scenes, the phrases 'poor game design' and 'high skill ceiling' are basically interchangable and depend on perspective. I think keyboards like this should become more popular if only to force game designers to make their basic elements like shooting, movement, and aiming mechanics less exploitable.
No inputs are being ignored by default - you press a key and it registers. The change made by Razor is that pressing A ignores D, and pressing D ignores A.
This is something that ONLY applies to the A and D keys. For example if you press A and S, you want both of them to register. If you press A and space, S and D, Ctrl and W, whatever other combination, you want them to both register. The only exception is A and D, where you want to "unpress" the other key. For every other key combination, you want keys to register when you press them.
No games are broken by this concept, in fact as the dude said in the vid, people were already using scripts that do exactly this - unpress A when you press D, and vice versa. But having scripts that manipulate multiple keys with one key press is usually banned in most competitive games. There's actually a ton of other scripts that are banned, and there are many keyboards with macro functions which can do null binds among other things.
It has nothing to do with actuation design, it's multiple inputs with a single key press, which has be banned in practically all competitive games for decades.
@@UC9o5XrlWjXFOZayVA5JCXcgThe easy solution here is to just change the game so that it overrides contradictory inputs. Not only would that be fair for everyone, since everyone would get it, but it would probably make the game better overall.
kinda crazy how "Good Product Support" is updating keyboards that are 2 years old. Should be the absolute minimum.
Wooting has a "good product support", so they made it even on a decade old keyboards. Now that's what I call good.
@@StillLagging Wooting is a good example and companies like razer should follow. Just making more waste
damn my 80HE has gotten even better before i even got it!
Ive been looking at getting one but not when it means waiting months to receive it. It now says I wouldnt even see it shipped till october if i ordered now. I will probably wait until they are readily available like the 60he
Yeah they are in peoduction phase lol @@Ballissle
@@Ballissle 60he and 80he difference? Just the size?
8k Hz and better latency. It's the latest product by Wooting. But nothing life changing@@LEYTHLEGACY
@@LEYTHLEGACY80HE has 8k hz (polling rate)
Does the Wooting Two HE also have this feature? I prefer full scale keyboards and I'd buy it if it had this.
where can i activate SOCD i cant find it.
i updated the wooting software but i still cant fint it
Same
Steelseries tweeted that their implementation will be coming soon as well
REALLY?! FINALLY THIS APEX PRO IS STILL GOOD AFTER ALL
@@jc-vi3dmbro wym good after all it’s still the greatest keyboard on the market with Wooting
@@ZAYaa2 lool
@@chy.0190 lool
@@ZAYaa2 wdym? it literally has barely any features, except rapid trigger, 0.1 actuation, look at wooting with multiple features, snap tap, etc.. wooting added the feature that razer added with the strafing feature in under 24 hours.
Fighting game controllers always had this im suprised this wasnt already a feature.
fr
it is a feature on alot of keyboards already, the creator of this video is just clickbaiting for views.
If I am understanding this correctly, a keyboard feature like this is not banned because it is a function of how the keyboard reports key states. It is not some magic script or program that automates anything. This is still human input. There have been keyboards in the past that did similar things with reporting keystrokes (or the way that some keyboard reported keystrokes and the way games interpreted them when holding A and tapping D for instance).
You should play around with “Alternate fully pressed behavior” enabled. Arguably, the most powerful thing released wasn’t SOCD but a setting of SOCD: Alternate fully pressed behavior. It’s almost like auto counter strafing. Check with an input monitor what effect a slow and a fast press have when the other direction is held. ;)
i can't imagine that simulating pressing A and D down together counterstrafes
@@vAmmonite You should give it a shot and see for yourself. 😄
NO WAY. You know what’s crazy … I saw the razer keyboard get this snap tap tech and went and ordered a wooting anyway. Why well reviews, company is so good , and quality of software. It arrived today and this video came out LOL so i missed out not even on the razer tech haha.
There is no "skill ceiling" that is being lowered, the skill floor is simply being raised to what it should have always been. An issue of our hardware that causes an inconvenience can only be called a "skill" for so long.
SOCD - simultaneous opposite cardinal direction - this is a concept that start with leverless fight stick controllers(ie hitbox) nothing specific to wooting but that is pretty interesting to see them implementing this.
Can you please share the link to the keycaps and case? The mod is so clean I’m jealous
Did you ever figure out what keycaps they are?
0:43 I see what you did there with the logitech mouse lol
I didn't until you pointed it out. That was cold.
I dont get it
@@35pmiko67 Logitech has absolutely terrible customer support, so he was making fun of them. Kind of a jab at Logitech since Wooting is so much better with listening to the community.
@@skelejoe ahhh thank you so much =)
What case and key caps is he using with his 60HE?
He has a video how he modified it
He did do a video of a modded variant but this is an upcoming collab with him and wooting.
[Quickly menzioned it in the setup video i think]
I think any pros and competitions that want to ban it are genuinely silly, because we optimise everything else in video games from hardware to ingame settings, to get the fullest out of the game for ourselves. Why the hell shouldn’t we optimise simple inputs like forward, backwards, left, right movements.
It’s not even close to cheating in my opinion, like does it give you a speed boost? No, doesn’t it give walls? Hell no, it’s just a faster response time.
It’s like saying having a high dpi on your mouse is cheating which is stupid.
I don't get why people are talking about this being banned by tournaments..: It's just that it used to be (and still is) the norm to have overlapping inputs. Imagine if it was normal from the beginning that a keyboard only counts the most recent key pressed - we wouldn't even be talking about this. With a conventional keyboard you essentially had to work around the programming of the firmware by lifting the first pressed key in order to allow the more recently pressed key to activate. So essentially conventional keyboards are just limiting what you actually want to to (and can do, it's just arbitrarily harder because it became the norm *by chance*). Now translate that to mice: What if you were only allowed to use a trackball mouse because "it's the norm" and everybody has to work around the inherit disadvantages of it. Wouldn't it be silly to then ban laser and optical mice from competition because they, at the end, resemble the desired user input more correct that than the trackball mouse?
A 'debate' like this, if we can even call it such (I hope people just get the sillyness and don't even start), is just fueled by conservative bias in the sense of "if I had to essentially trick my keyboard into accepting the last pressed key, so do you". We have to overcome this...
I dno, you do make some good points but it's obvious not all keyboards will have this any time soon. I mean it's not an inevitable development like the laser mouse cuz I don't see these kind of keyboards becoming standard any time soon.
also I think it's kind of like driver aids in F1, they could make a car that pretty much drives itself, a computer can do things like shifting braking and traction control far better than any human could. traditionally though all these things are part of the skill set needed to compete. think this is very similar. sure this last input stuff is technically better at doing what you want but it undeniably removes an element of skill from the game.
There's a difference between adopting a new technology that more reliably reads your inputs (laser mice), and a new tech which reads the same inputs but outputs different results.
This is just erosion of a mechanical skill which has been a part of the genre since the start. It reduces the skill disparity between players which is the antithesis of competitive gaming. If a new game wanted to implement this in code then that would be fine, but this changes how all games play.
Fighting games dealt with this, and now fps games will have to as well.
@@zwenkwiel816 This last point is what I mean by conservative bias: We are just used to jumping this hoop since keyboards haven't changed much in the last decade. Objectively speaking though, there is no kind of assistence or inherit advantage when it comes to these knew keyboards. Sure, in the sense of strafing it's definitely less effort relative to before, but you could just as well make the point that it removes the short instance of standing still when switching directions which could be desired (maybe in other circumstances) as well - and achieving that would now require more effort as you'd have to lift off both keys on the 'new keyboard'... So it really goes both ways, just what is deemed "better" is decided simply by what used to require more effort before and is easier now, not even taking into consideration the other effects or even if it's an inherit advantage at all but rather a more direct input that just advances as the rest of the technology (e.g. 8000hz etc.).
In the case of racing there's been no stick-shift for ages but nobody is complaining now since paddle shifting has become the norm; you're still deciding your gears and think about all the timing and whatnot - simply the "hoop-jumping" of guiding the stick-shifter through the (predeterminde by the car manufacturer) gear pattern is eliminated which doesn't take away anything from what the driver has to know and account for but rather streamlines the process, yielding better results on a whole... ...not relative to others...
@@n00b1n8R I get that original point but it's simply the case that keyboards came like we're used to them by default for decades - still nobody conciously decided that a double input should interact with the game like that. It's simply *chance* that the gaming mechanics have hardened that way. If the original keyboard manufacturer took a different approach we might be discussing the exact opposite right now, how it might be 'unfair' if both inputs were discarded as soon as we press another key...
It's the same with wireless mice for example: Before you had to make sure the wire doesn't manipulate how you use the mouse, you were only able to perform a certain movement for a fixed distance or you'd get stuck; at least you had to change your gamestyle in a way that is compatible with what the mouse allowed for.
Now, that we have wireless mice, the same input from a farther glide outputs different results than before (where you couldn't move anymore after a certain distance). Stil, you'd be ridiculed if you saw a problem with this.
We can't make something a problem on this basis alone but rather on what we're actually changing. In the case of the mouse it's simply an arbitrary hinderance we were forced to adapt around because the technology had nothing better in store.
If nowdays we prefer to play with a really low dpi without having to lift off the mouse pad often, we can do that nowdays but in the past we simply couldn't. The inputs were determined and locked by the technological limitations.
And it's the same with the keyboard now. Simply just because of how the firmware was coded we were forced to lift the figer off of the first key in order to have the next key registered. This technological limitation has now been fixed, that's all.
I mean, with the logic of input-output we could also ban N-Key Rollover keyboards as they give a different output when pressing more than 6 keys at a time than a 6-Key Rollover board...
You see, this is once again just the "I had to do it that way, so you have to too" bias..!
I would just like to congratulate you guys on showing whoever looks at this thread what a good adult back and forth debate on an issue looks like. I really enjoyed reading the different views here.
my razer huntsman TKL doesn't have none of this , while 7 years wooting kayboard has this lol
thats what you get for buying a razer product. they are the most mid company out there. if you are looking for quality products then the only thing razer is actually good at is mice.
@@tomgreene5388razer mice are trash
cause its not an analog keyboard? you slow?
@@7448CHRIS that doesnt matter this feature can be made possible for every keyboard softwareside (there is a reason why there is alrdy a makro out there that can be used for every keyboard)
@@7448CHRIS shi keyboard anyways
i hope steel series does a software update on their series to do this too.
Yeah I own an apex pro and I pray that they make an update for it
yeah i got the apex pro mini and im waiting for it
yall heard any updates on this?
For online gaming, it's impossible to ban this. It's happening on the hardware level. And it's straight up illegal for games to scan other programs (such as the drivers+support app) running on your computer.
This can only be banned at in-person events where they can control what software and hardware is allowed to be used.
what do you mean its illegal for games to scan other programs? lmao
As if gaming wasn't sweaty enough...
If you do the exact same thing with software that does not post to your operating system as an "input device" it will be cheating and you might get banned. This is ONLY not "bannable" because the code is either executed on the Keyboard and then sent through the "input device" channel or using the device certification to run the code on the local machine beacuase it runs through the driver channel for input devices. The outcome is the exact same for all of these methods to achieve this sort of "input filtering", which is what this is. Your inputs don't get "cleaner". They get filtered, to achive the most radical movement. That is the goal of these lines of code, no matter where they get executed. It's like Mouse acceleration, but we don't talk about that because it's mostly useless in relevant games.
i dont think we should call this "harmful" cause we want to gate keep the mechanical input of a button release being something players need to spend hours and hours "mastering". at the end of the day each action in game still takes a manual action by the user. the keyboard isnt deciding when to stop your movement. you still are. it isnt aiming for you. you still are. it isnt a cheat its just an easier input. and if anything that makes games more accessible and is a good thing. i think some of yall just have a high hourse about how much you practice a skill and want to gate keep it.
Honestly, if the player is still doing the inputs, then it's just an evolution of hardware that should eventually become a standard. A better gaming mouse will give you more accurate inputs, a better monitor will give you lower input lag, and a better keyboard will give you more accurate key presses. Plus, this feature is something that could be implemented with software, even just in the game itself, so if they don't ban people for using it just make it available for everyone. I think the only thing to do to make if more fair is make it so you can't just hold A and tap D for strafes, make them release the key and press both
And now its banned in CS lmao...
So if you use Wooting or Razer then you're a cheater?
Uhhhhh.... Y E S ? 😐
and 360hz monitor too ....
360hz monitor isn't perfecting your inputs for you.
Not really, its not going to get most of the Wooting/Razer fanboys out of silver.
What mousepad are you using? It looks different from the ones you reviewed last year.
its now officially bannable in CS2. Gets you kicked if it detects it, and repeated use will get you days, then weeks, then months then perma ban :D
Biggest dog shit development. Who though this would be a good idea? Now every keyboard will get this feature and devs will either decide to block any wiggle advantage from their games, or everyone will use this feature. The people who don't have this feature are either buying hardware with it, or stop playing the game, because they don't want to face an unfair disadvantage. Really dark days for FPS gaming.
Or these particular games will just fix their input handling, and everyone will be better for it.
now let's just hope Steelseries comes up with something like this
they are but they are saying it will take weeks :(
are those custom keycaps on the wooting keyboard? also what switches were you using on the wooting, it looks to clean I want the same exact build.
And CS2 banned it this morning, good on em.