I have three grin all axle motors. The third one (v3) being installed on my custom built world touring trike with solar. Coupled with an 18-speed pinion p18 gearbox. My front v2 version will be on my diy kick bike that I am making and the other v2 rear motor is mounted on my everyday fast commuter hybrid. You could say I am very happy with this product.
Nice. It says alot that you are starting on your 3rd build of this ever-evolving motor. I'm shifting my focus to this motor last hour after a kind reply from a Grin Tech rep suggested this motor vs two different front geared hub options I'd been looking at. What voltage are you running on your 3 motors, please? Thanks
@@TNSonglines go for it. I am not a speed freak so I use 36v on all of them. I build my own battery packs as well. The hybrid uses std wind. 10S8P Panasonic Ga cells. 700c wheel. The world touring trike also Std wind and a 20” wheel. Samsung 35E cells. 10S12P The kick bike will feature a 10S16P Samsung 35E pack. Also Std wind in a 20” wheel. I use 40A smart BMS always and phaserunner controllers.
@alexhofvander9839 Nice. Thanks for sharing so many details! I'm still picking & choosing parts but fixing to dive in. I like the gear range that the Pinion p.18 that you run has and I bet that having extra gear choices really is a major plus on long cross-country rides. I've looked at Rohloff 14 and liked it for it's total gear range but sort of waiting to learn more about this new 3x3 9 speed IGH which has an impressive gear range, higher torque rating than other current IGHs, runs in grease so no regular oil changes and extremely long service intervals, etc. Lastly, Pinion's new MGU seems pretty impressive to me so far, and I hope they someday in the near future release a Pinion MGU that is geared towards the bike building crowd.
Awesome!! I’m planning to use one of your offerings to convert my cargo bike, and now that it has an integrated torque sensor, this is what I’ll plan to use. Great work.
Can't wait for the superharness to come out!! The conversion setups look incredibly clean, the runner controllers are fast becoming a plug and play solution, exciting!
Cannot wait to get my hands on the 45mm rear. My beloved DD45_FAT was stolen a year or two ago and nothing has yet to replace it in my heart -- I suspect this will, hands down.
Unbelievable the amount of r&d ye do for a company yere size. It's absolutely amazing work my friend. Been following ye for the last 10 years and what a journey it's been. When I built my first ebike. My current bikes done around 120,000km, second bike in that time and second battery on this v3 version of the bike. V1:1000w, v2:1500w, v3: 3.3kw, v4:not sure but I'm thinking around 5-8kw, but I need to learn tig welding for this version.
im in the process of planning my first ebike build...ive checked out your site because being a canadian myself i always prefer to buy from my own FIRST...but i was a little surprised by how much more expensive your products are even battery packs which surely have all chinese componants are more expensive!...sadly i dont think i can even afford any of your seemingly high quality products...well other than other brands like bafang that you sell. I really do always try to shop canadian but in this case the prices are alot more so i guess ill be limited to amazon products because i need to stick to my $1500 or less budget !!! Nice website though guys!!! wish i could have dealt with your company!!! But bafang has a pretty solid product also so its not like buying from an unknown brand...best of luck to you guys BC from Ontario!!! hopefully i can get products on sale or something as my ebike building project grows! Love the calculation simulators you have on your site!! those are really cool!!! great Job there!!!
Thank you. The new fatbike motor with 45mm magnets, what current does it support continuously? Phase wires 4mm sq.? I think you compared it on a video with QS205 motor? But that motor has 50mm magnets and 10mm Sq. Wires. Can you make your upgraded version of hub motor for 3kw of constant power? I would love to have 50% lighter motor!
So far we've just been doing the development testing with the same L1019 cables as the 27mm motors, and so the bottle neck here for phase current handling is actually the L1019 connector itself. For a slow KV motor running at a high voltage this is OK (and 3kW easily doable) but to take full advantage of the motor's potential at 48V/52V will require a totally different plug type. Sadly there really doesn't seem to be any good options out there for an all-in-one waterproof 3 phase power connector with signal lines in this current range (ie 80-100A), so it's one of the details we're struggling to sort out. Any suggestions?
@@GrinTechnologies I suspect anyone who's trying to push past the 3kw mark would have zero issue with separated out, higher gauge connectors. I've personally built 72v 3kw (avg) setups quite happily with the Phase/Franken/Runner controllers, but when I've wanted to get past that 3kw mark for a build, I generally jump to other controllers (typically, VESC based). In that ecosystem, builders are all wiring/soldering/connectorizing in a custom fashion anyway.
@@GrinTechnologies I'm interested also of this motor. Does the design enable the use of parallel phase wires? I would just use dual wiring with additional MT60. This is how my motor is currently set.
Individual bullet connectors for each phase cable with perhaps a single housing to snap together around them might be a good high-amperage solution@GrinTechnologies
The attention to detail with this hub is impressive. Very nicely done. I wrench on a small fleet of Bullitt cargo bikes here in Seattle and I'm wondering how appropriate this hub would be for our needs. Currently we run GMAC's on our bikes and they have been fantastic in terms of reliability and performance, especially with all the hills here. How do you think that the All Axle Hub Motor would compare with the GMAC with regards to starting torque? We often carry loads in the 75-80 kg range, add another 120kg for bike and rider weight, and throw in starting on say an 8% hill from a red light and I'm wondering if the All Axle motor would have enough torque? (The GMAC can do it, but it is definitely at the upper end of it's capabilities).
I’m another Seattle rider interested in this same question. I’m looking to upgrade to a higher torque motor for carrying my ever bigger kids up a 10% grade hill to school. I’m considering this or the GMAC.
Hi there and glad to hear of our potential interest. In this particular application of cargo hauling up steep hills in Seattle, definitely the geared GMAC motor will have a performance edge over the DD All-Axle hub. If you have statorade in the All-Axle motor, what you will find is that in an apples to apples test, both the GMAC and AA will be able to handle the same grade and load hauling when pushed to their limits, but the GMAC will be doing it with better efficiency and less drain on the battery pack. For some people this is an acceptable trade-off to make for the benefits of the higher reliability and robustness that comes with the direct drive motor. But it will feel like a small step back in terms of the punch you feel from the hub. You can make up for that by putting the motor in the front 20" wheel rather than the rear 26". I've got an edgerunner with the All-Axle in the 20" rear wheel (what you see in closing scene of this video), and in this configuration it's great at hauling 2 kids all around the hills of North Vancouver.
@@GrinTechnologies Ah yes, of course, using the wheel diameter as a form of gearing. Makes total sense. I really appreciate your detailed reply. Very helpful information.
Would it be possible to fit the fatbike version in a 135mm QR rear dropout ? I am looking to convert and HP Velotechnik trike to a fully electric serial hybrid propulsion. I don't need the gears nor the torque sensing but would love the larger stator and power output !
No it's meant for fat bike sized dropouts. He mentions it's for 170 to 190mm dropouts. It will never fit on a 135mm. You would need the regular version.
This answer is correct ish. Although what wasn't mentioned in the video are the plans for a 45mm front motor varient that will be for 135mm / 150mm front fatbike forks. So if you don't need a drivechain you could easily install that on the rear.
Have a look at page 9 of the user manual to understand the power capability as a function of wheel RPM. The voltage of your battery is neither here nor there: ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/305/
I love the idea of using a titanium axle that will never rust vs the common thin steel hollow hub motor axle, much more safe . Great job ! I wonder how many watts that new fat bike motor can handle ?
In theory it should be over 50%, but With a phaserunner controller the power difference won't be as noticeable since in that case you are limited by the same max phase current limits. We should have them on the simulator in February
My daily is a 26" Fat Tire Kepler for my urban daily commute, a few stretches on 40 mph I max out at 33 to 36 and I would be thrilled if I could either go with a front hub just to "Turbo Mode" thru those 2 miles or would this motor as a rear hub upgrade do the trick with my 52 volt existing battery? I'm willing upgrade to 72 volts-20ah too if nessasary? I also can appreciate the fact that Grin is a North American company to do business with to 'Shop Local'
Pretty much convinced in Grin but what would be your take on FH vs RH on a SWB Bacchetta recumbent? More weight in the rear or balancing out the CG with a front hub motor? In current riding, I really avoid any loose sand/gravel as the recumbent front wheel slips out easier than on an upright diamond-framed bike.
If the majority of the rider weight is on the rear and you ride on gravel thrn a rear drive is recommended. If you just ride on pavement it makes no difference. If you have a 20" front wheel and 26 inch rear, you get better thrust and go climbing ability with the motor in the smaller front hub.
That was an option, but they are also quite expensive and difficult to source, while the 44mm BCD ISO disc rotors are nearly universal in availability. So in trade off far more people would be inconvienced by the non-standard disc than by the lack of 20mm thru-axle support. That is the solution that a few other entities have followed though where ISO rotor standard simply couldn't fit (like the TDCM IGH motors ebikes.ca/shop/discontinued/tdcm-igh-ready-to-roll-kit.html)
So I read in the documentation of this product that the ‘apparant assist level’ differs based on the gear you are in since the pedal torque is multiplied depending on the gear you are in. That worries me a bit that this may not feel natural. It almost makes me think, why put the torque sensor in there anyway compared to the bottom bracket. Can you help me better understand how torque sensing will actually ‘feel’ with this motor?
It feels great, that is a comment on the manual meant more for system integrators and not users. The CA3 system computes the human power input correctly based on the wheel rpm using the wheel trq sensor mode, no different than how it computes human power based on crank torque and crank rpm with a bb sensor
@@GrinTechnologies what? Really?. Lets say I have a bottom bracket torque sensor sensing 40nm. Then that new torque sensor in the rear hub motor will sense a different torque when I’m in first gear then when I’m in fifth gear. What you are talking about is ‘work done’ by the human. That is true but I thought you want to multiply the user’s torque by scaling current directly with torque. And also I’m not planning to use CA3, I’ll be using a VESC for motor control and ui via bluetooth to my phone
I believe that what is computed is human power, as in torque X speed which is obviously the same (minus negligible drivetrain loss) whether you measure it at the crank or at the hub. That being said, I'm curious how this is handled when running the superH and the "new" display instead of a CA3? I'm pretty sure that it is all accounted for, but I didn't read it explicitly written out. On this topic, would there be a comprehensive list of feature differences between the two options? Thanks!
This is very exciting. I’ve had an all axle motor for a few years now and it’s great. Now I can make my surly big fat dummy 2 wheel drive 🎉. Is it going to be possible to tie the two motors together so as to allow the rear wheel torque sensor to provide a throttle input to the front wheel?
Any plans for European legal (250W / 25km/h ?) super lightweight motors? Or is there just no demand for DIY ebikes that are European legal (without being classified as a speed-pedelec)
Speed and power is limited by the controller not the motor. They have smaller less powerfull motors as well and their controllers are the most customizable on the market.
Plus Europe explicitly doesn't regulate the actual motor output or input power. Just the manufacturers nominal rated power. So this motor is perfectly legal as long as we (the Manufacturer) can justify giving it a 250 nominal power rating, which is very easy to do by spec'ing performance at 100rpm.. See the motor power table in the user manual. Ultimately motor power laws are incredibly stupid and ill informed, and we will be releasing a video on this topic soon.
Those Santana QR inserts will likely fit my Sparta Li-ion step-thru (~2000, 24v, aluminium) to replace the old 155mm OLN DD motor/7speed cassette/Sturmey coaster brake hub.
This OLN motor had both a 7 speed cassette and a coaster brake? That seems pretty unique too! Anyways this should work, spreading a frame dropout spacing (even an alumium one) by 5mm isn't too big of a deal.
@@GrinTechnologies 157mm is it..... Will be at trikefest 2024 here in portland on the 15th as I see Grin tech set to be there.. Will be asking more than..
Seeing on yalls site that a front fatty hub w/ 45mm stators is also coming Q2 24'. Is this still on track, as well as the rear fatty 45 (for 190mm)? Really excited to try these! Also, any change in peak watts for those beyond the 1kw of existing all-axle hubs?
The rear 45mm fatbike motors are already being shipped out to customers who placed the pre-order deposits earlier this year. After we've fulfilled those we will open up general sales on our website so stay tuned! There is no 1kW peak. There is no such thing as peak watts in any objective sense. We put that number down (pulled large from our ass) just to appease people who insist that motors should have a numeric watts rating :-) The actual power capability of any given motor is primarily a function of the the operating RPM and is not a fixed value. See: ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/all-axle-hub-motor.html#MotorPower and ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html The 45mm wide motors should generally be able to handle 66% more torque and power at a given RPM than the 27mm motors. So if you want to call the 27mm motors 1kW (which is totally arbitrary), then by the same rationale the 45mm motors will be 1.6 kW.
@@GrinTechnologies That's a much more accurate way to sum up the perf and possible thresholds of sorts. Thank you for driving that home (again) for us. Torque is what we'd mainly be in-the-market for, given we have a larger cargo bike, so the fat motor hubs are worth waiting for (135mm up-front and 190mm rear drops). Will the front fatty be debuting aprox the same time the rear one will, or is that still a 't.b.d./in-dev' item? We'd like to do BOTH the wheels at the same time, if we can purchase both hubs in the same go. Thanks as always for what yall do - the quality (and accuracy) in your products and specs is a welcomed, fresh take in this industry!
The rears are already in full production for the customers who placed deposits, but the front fat axles only got send out for anodizing a couple days ago so it'll be a couple weeks before those are getting produced too. By the time we open up for general sales outside of the deposit customers, both the front and rear options will be there, so no problem to purchase them together!
If it's a trike that has a pedal tranmsission to the rear axle then no, as that requires a hub that turns with the axle while the axle in this motor has to be fixed and non rotating. But if it's a front wheel drive pedal trike, or a non-peadling trike, then for sure you can electrify both rear wheels in a single sided mount.
Hi, that’s an awesome innovation for an e bike motor. Is the motor durable for every day use. Say like 75 kms a day travel? Is motor water proofed when you get caught in the rain? I’m interested with your products and I came say it stands out against competitors.
Direct drive motors are very reliable, a good testament is Mark Havran's Journey is just one example of riding thousands of kilometers in all weather with zero problems. th-cam.com/video/a-4JPYHcfxQ/w-d-xo.html
If you have a lathe to make your own 2 piece spindle you can make it work for sure. Or use a stock 15mm boost spindle with the stock 15mm inserts and just have a 15-20mm shim to fit the larger ID fork dropouts.
So I'm deciding between the STD wind and the SLOW wind version. Interestingly enough I see barely any efficiency differences between them for going up a 15% incline hill at 10kph. I was expecting to see in the order of 10% range difference, but I see more like 1-3% . Don't get me wrong, that's awesome! Because now I don't have to sacrifice my top speed. But am I interpreting that right?
It's one of the most common mistakes to assumes a slower motor wind would be more efficient. In theory with the same copper fill the efficiency and torque should be identifical for all motor winds when compared at the same conditions. The only reason for the small difference is the controller losses from the higher phase current. Expect a video from us focused purely on this point.
The main difference between the slow and standard winds will be the maximum torque at the controllers phase current limit when the controller is in thermal rollback. But that's a controller limit, not a motor property.
This hub motor is lighter than a bbshd, is more rugged, more reliable, comparable in power, easier to install, and gives fantastic regen braking for easy less bike maintenance. For off road riding a middrive is generally better, but for everything else the hub is supreme.
@@GrinTechnologies Excellent. What is the most powerful hub mtor you have? Any plans or ability to get a 4,000 or 5,000 watt with integrated 20" wheel, (like my Ninebot Max wheel-but way larger)?
Changing the motor alone will not change the peak power since that is dictated by your motor controller. So normally we'd suggest you first get a higher current motor controller. If your existing motor handles it fine then great. If your motor eventually fails (stripped gears, cooked windings etc) then that is the sign you needed a larger motor too, so you can get a larger motor for your new higher power controller.
@@GrinTechnologies I have the Aventon Level 2, do you offer such a controller and hub motor to upgrade both? Would like more power but wold want to do it correctly and still use the factory battery.
As explained in the user manual, it's about 80Nm for short times, 30Nm continuous without statorade, and 40Nm continuous with statorade. The voltage has nothing to do with that.
Any motor can do 50 kph. Just choose the winding KV and battery voltage appropriately to your wheel diameter. Whether it has the torque to push a given vehicle at that speed depends entirely on the load profile of that vehicle. You would benefit from watching: th-cam.com/video/ALde6zhLPs0/w-d-xo.html
Sorry but I just can't understand how a cassette with gears make any difference on a hub motor. I have always built mid drive motors so I am ignorant on hub motors.
It doesn't make any difference at all to the motor performance. What it affects is the rideability of the bike (ie pedaling) and the compatibility of doing retrofit conversions on exiting bike platforms without having to change or downgrade the existing drivetrain.
I don't understand your website, like there are no specifications on any of your hub motors, no watts, no voltage, no rpm nothing to give me an idea of how many mph I can achieve if I pair it with other motors and battery
I'm not sure how we could make it any more explicit: ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/all-axle-hub-motor.html#MotorSpeed ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/all-axle-hub-motor.html#MotorPower And of course: ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html and ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html and ebikes.ca/tools/trip-simulator.html
Their products are great, but if you have any issues with them, the company will not answer requests for warranty returns. I have been trying to contact them for over a month now with no response.
Hi Erik, can you try sending an email from a different amount? . You have not responded to any of our emails either so there could well be something amiss with your email server.
It's a shame you're not based in the UK, I have a motor designed that will wipe out all competition guaranteed! I've approached manufacturers here in the UK and they didn't even bother getting back to me, obviously I didn't show them the designed and only stated that my designed should come close to double the output of a conventional ebike motor.. sounds far fetched right? 🤣 Not when you understand conventional ebike motors waste half the energy being put in as I do. So what I'm talking about is essentially producing a motor that requires 1000watts but outputs 2000watts (or near that) in torque. An efficient motor makes an efficient generator in this case, bolt two motors together so one motor rotates the other and if we're putting in 1000 watts we should get 2000watts... 5000wats in 10,000watts out.. If you believe in Einsteins theory of relativity you not thinking "this guy is nuts" but I know Einstein was a clever fool as in, clever at fooling people. Einstein's theory of relativity completely does away with the existence of the Aether, his theory is fraud/lies. A magnet sticks to metal at room temperature and no energy is being put in, that is cold fusion apparently, a magnet alone proves the theory of relativity as BS as nothing is being put into the magnet and yet it still has energy. A magnets energy isn't relative to any energy being put in, "boom" goes the theory of relativity proving Einstein was a fraud 👍😊
I bought the old model. It was quite pricey and I had to wait a few months for it to arrive in Australia. It never worked and the customer service was awful. I won’t purchase anything else from Grin
"Never worked" sounds like a crock. It's a DD motor. There's literally nothing to go wrong with it. Just shaddup and buy a Bosch bike for $10k...you seem like the type!
Yes, that will be coming too! You can already use our 27mm motors on fatbikes just fine with the axle extender set, but there will be a 45mm option as well for higher continuous power capability. There is a limitation to how much torque you can have on a front hub without loosing traction, but fat bike tires tend to be a lot grippier so front wheel skidding should be less of a concern here.
I have three grin all axle motors. The third one (v3) being installed on my custom built world touring trike with solar. Coupled with an 18-speed pinion p18 gearbox.
My front v2 version will be on my diy kick bike that I am making and the other v2 rear motor is mounted on my everyday fast commuter hybrid. You could say I am very happy with this product.
Nice. It says alot that you are starting on your 3rd build of this ever-evolving motor. I'm shifting my focus to this motor last hour after a kind reply from a Grin Tech rep suggested this motor vs two different front geared hub options I'd been looking at.
What voltage are you running on your 3 motors, please? Thanks
@@TNSonglines go for it. I am not a speed freak so I use 36v on all of them. I build my own battery packs as well.
The hybrid uses std wind. 10S8P Panasonic Ga cells. 700c wheel.
The world touring trike also Std wind and a 20” wheel. Samsung 35E cells. 10S12P
The kick bike will feature a 10S16P Samsung 35E pack. Also Std wind in a 20” wheel.
I use 40A smart BMS always and phaserunner controllers.
@alexhofvander9839
Nice. Thanks for sharing so many details! I'm still picking & choosing parts but fixing to dive in. I like the gear range that the Pinion p.18 that you run has and I bet that having extra gear choices really is a major plus on long cross-country rides. I've looked at Rohloff 14 and liked it for it's total gear range but sort of waiting to learn more about this new 3x3 9 speed IGH which has an impressive gear range, higher torque rating than other current IGHs, runs in grease so no regular oil changes and extremely long service intervals, etc. Lastly, Pinion's new MGU seems pretty impressive to me so far, and I hope they someday in the near future release a Pinion MGU that is geared towards the bike building crowd.
Awesome!! I’m planning to use one of your offerings to convert my cargo bike, and now that it has an integrated torque sensor, this is what I’ll plan to use. Great work.
Great engineering as always, thank you!
Great job Justin, keep up the good work and keep creating new toys for tomorrow's horizons
Can't wait for the superharness to come out!! The conversion setups look incredibly clean, the runner controllers are fast becoming a plug and play solution, exciting!
Great to see you achieving your goals! Wishing you all the success!
Cannot wait to get my hands on the 45mm rear. My beloved DD45_FAT was stolen a year or two ago and nothing has yet to replace it in my heart -- I suspect this will, hands down.
Unbelievable the amount of r&d ye do for a company yere size. It's absolutely amazing work my friend. Been following ye for the last 10 years and what a journey it's been. When I built my first ebike. My current bikes done around 120,000km, second bike in that time and second battery on this v3 version of the bike. V1:1000w, v2:1500w, v3: 3.3kw, v4:not sure but I'm thinking around 5-8kw, but I need to learn tig welding for this version.
Anyone recognize the display at 3:07 ? Something new from Grin?
No, I am curious
You guys have great video skills. It really helps.
Man you have the best hub motors out there! I do wish they were a little bit more affordable
Amazing! Can’t wait to get my Grin fat motor
Some impressive stuff for sure
Interesting...keep giving us new products! We appreciate it.
im in the process of planning my first ebike build...ive checked out your site because being a canadian myself i always prefer to buy from my own FIRST...but i was a little surprised by how much more expensive your products are even battery packs which surely have all chinese componants are more expensive!...sadly i dont think i can even afford any of your seemingly high quality products...well other than other brands like bafang that you sell. I really do always try to shop canadian but in this case the prices are alot more so i guess ill be limited to amazon products because i need to stick to my $1500 or less budget !!! Nice website though guys!!! wish i could have dealt with your company!!! But bafang has a pretty solid product also so its not like buying from an unknown brand...best of luck to you guys BC from Ontario!!! hopefully i can get products on sale or something as my ebike building project grows! Love the calculation simulators you have on your site!! those are really cool!!! great Job there!!!
Excellent news, keep up the great work.
You can actual get cassettes with a 9t cog for SRAM XD drivers by e*thirteen
That's insane! Which model?
when will the 45mm stator version be available on the simulator tool?
Will this work with a unicycle axel? If not then when are you going to make a commercially available one for a unicycle
This is a great product for the handicap/disabled.
Thank you. The new fatbike motor with 45mm magnets, what current does it support continuously? Phase wires 4mm sq.? I think you compared it on a video with QS205 motor? But that motor has 50mm magnets and 10mm Sq. Wires. Can you make your upgraded version of hub motor for 3kw of constant power? I would love to have 50% lighter motor!
So far we've just been doing the development testing with the same L1019 cables as the 27mm motors, and so the bottle neck here for phase current handling is actually the L1019 connector itself. For a slow KV motor running at a high voltage this is OK (and 3kW easily doable) but to take full advantage of the motor's potential at 48V/52V will require a totally different plug type.
Sadly there really doesn't seem to be any good options out there for an all-in-one waterproof 3 phase power connector with signal lines in this current range (ie 80-100A), so it's one of the details we're struggling to sort out. Any suggestions?
@@GrinTechnologies I suspect anyone who's trying to push past the 3kw mark would have zero issue with separated out, higher gauge connectors. I've personally built 72v 3kw (avg) setups quite happily with the Phase/Franken/Runner controllers, but when I've wanted to get past that 3kw mark for a build, I generally jump to other controllers (typically, VESC based). In that ecosystem, builders are all wiring/soldering/connectorizing in a custom fashion anyway.
Is there a 2000w version of the fat bike motor?
@@GrinTechnologies I'm interested also of this motor. Does the design enable the use of parallel phase wires? I would just use dual wiring with additional MT60. This is how my motor is currently set.
Individual bullet connectors for each phase cable with perhaps a single housing to snap together around them might be a good high-amperage solution@GrinTechnologies
What about a fatbike front motor version?
If didn't get mentioned on the video but it is on the drawing board, for 135mm slotted and 150mm thru axle front forks
The attention to detail with this hub is impressive. Very nicely done. I wrench on a small fleet of Bullitt cargo bikes here in Seattle and I'm wondering how appropriate this hub would be for our needs. Currently we run GMAC's on our bikes and they have been fantastic in terms of reliability and performance, especially with all the hills here. How do you think that the All Axle Hub Motor would compare with the GMAC with regards to starting torque?
We often carry loads in the 75-80 kg range, add another 120kg for bike and rider weight, and throw in starting on say an 8% hill from a red light and I'm wondering if the All Axle motor would have enough torque? (The GMAC can do it, but it is definitely at the upper end of it's capabilities).
I’m another Seattle rider interested in this same question. I’m looking to upgrade to a higher torque motor for carrying my ever bigger kids up a 10% grade hill to school. I’m considering this or the GMAC.
Hi there and glad to hear of our potential interest. In this particular application of cargo hauling up steep hills in Seattle, definitely the geared GMAC motor will have a performance edge over the DD All-Axle hub. If you have statorade in the All-Axle motor, what you will find is that in an apples to apples test, both the GMAC and AA will be able to handle the same grade and load hauling when pushed to their limits, but the GMAC will be doing it with better efficiency and less drain on the battery pack.
For some people this is an acceptable trade-off to make for the benefits of the higher reliability and robustness that comes with the direct drive motor. But it will feel like a small step back in terms of the punch you feel from the hub.
You can make up for that by putting the motor in the front 20" wheel rather than the rear 26". I've got an edgerunner with the All-Axle in the 20" rear wheel (what you see in closing scene of this video), and in this configuration it's great at hauling 2 kids all around the hills of North Vancouver.
@@GrinTechnologies Ah yes, of course, using the wheel diameter as a form of gearing. Makes total sense. I really appreciate your detailed reply. Very helpful information.
Great engineering!
3:07 This screen is available on your website?
Would it be possible to fit the fatbike version in a 135mm QR rear dropout ? I am looking to convert and HP Velotechnik trike to a fully electric serial hybrid propulsion. I don't need the gears nor the torque sensing but would love the larger stator and power output !
No it's meant for fat bike sized dropouts. He mentions it's for 170 to 190mm dropouts. It will never fit on a 135mm. You would need the regular version.
This answer is correct ish. Although what wasn't mentioned in the video are the plans for a 45mm front motor varient that will be for 135mm / 150mm front fatbike forks. So if you don't need a drivechain you could easily install that on the rear.
Wow, great news guys. At 72 volts what power can the motor handle?
Have a look at page 9 of the user manual to understand the power capability as a function of wheel RPM. The voltage of your battery is neither here nor there:
ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/305/
I love the idea of using a titanium axle that will never rust vs the common thin steel hollow hub motor axle, much more safe . Great job ! I wonder how many watts that new fat bike motor can handle ?
What kind of power improvements can we expect from the fat bike version? Can I just check the simulator to find out?
In theory it should be over 50%, but With a phaserunner controller the power difference won't be as noticeable since in that case you are limited by the same max phase current limits. We should have them on the simulator in February
My grin rear axle gets very hot when tackling some west van hilly roads. It the fatbike option fixes that, I will be a super fan.
fantastic work!!
Can't wait for my V3 rear to get here. Now if only the snow would melt so i could get into the garage to work on my bike...
Also, what's up with the screen at 3:07 , ehhh?
Do you have or plan to make a video on how to replace bearings step-by-step? That would be awesome, thank you.
My daily is a 26" Fat Tire Kepler for my urban daily commute, a few stretches on 40 mph I max out at 33 to 36 and I would be thrilled if I could either go with a front hub just to "Turbo Mode" thru those 2 miles or would this motor as a rear hub upgrade do the trick with my 52 volt existing battery? I'm willing upgrade to 72 volts-20ah too if nessasary? I also can appreciate the fact that Grin is a North American company to do business with to 'Shop Local'
they are Canadian.
@@coler154Canada is in North America…
Pretty much convinced in Grin but what would be your take on FH vs RH on a SWB Bacchetta recumbent? More weight in the rear or balancing out the CG with a front hub motor? In current riding, I really avoid any loose sand/gravel as the recumbent front wheel slips out easier than on an upright diamond-framed bike.
If the majority of the rider weight is on the rear and you ride on gravel thrn a rear drive is recommended. If you just ride on pavement it makes no difference. If you have a 20" front wheel and 26 inch rear, you get better thrust and go climbing ability with the motor in the smaller front hub.
How about using Rohloff type discs? They have got a significantly larger bolt circle diameter, giving you plenty of space for the cable.
That was an option, but they are also quite expensive and difficult to source, while the 44mm BCD ISO disc rotors are nearly universal in availability. So in trade off far more people would be inconvienced by the non-standard disc than by the lack of 20mm thru-axle support.
That is the solution that a few other entities have followed though where ISO rotor standard simply couldn't fit (like the TDCM IGH motors ebikes.ca/shop/discontinued/tdcm-igh-ready-to-roll-kit.html)
So I read in the documentation of this product that the ‘apparant assist level’ differs based on the gear you are in since the pedal torque is multiplied depending on the gear you are in. That worries me a bit that this may not feel natural. It almost makes me think, why put the torque sensor in there anyway compared to the bottom bracket. Can you help me better understand how torque sensing will actually ‘feel’ with this motor?
It feels great, that is a comment on the manual meant more for system integrators and not users. The CA3 system computes the human power input correctly based on the wheel rpm using the wheel trq sensor mode, no different than how it computes human power based on crank torque and crank rpm with a bb sensor
@@GrinTechnologies what? Really?. Lets say I have a bottom bracket torque sensor sensing 40nm. Then that new torque sensor in the rear hub motor will sense a different torque when I’m in first gear then when I’m in fifth gear. What you are talking about is ‘work done’ by the human. That is true but I thought you want to multiply the user’s torque by scaling current directly with torque. And also I’m not planning to use CA3, I’ll be using a VESC for motor control and ui via bluetooth to my phone
I believe that what is computed is human power, as in torque X speed which is obviously the same (minus negligible drivetrain loss) whether you measure it at the crank or at the hub.
That being said, I'm curious how this is handled when running the superH and the "new" display instead of a CA3?
I'm pretty sure that it is all accounted for, but I didn't read it explicitly written out.
On this topic, would there be a comprehensive list of feature differences between the two options?
Thanks!
This is very exciting. I’ve had an all axle motor for a few years now and it’s great. Now I can make my surly big fat dummy 2 wheel drive 🎉. Is it going to be possible to tie the two motors together so as to allow the rear wheel torque sensor to provide a throttle input to the front wheel?
With the CA3 kit and the dual wp8 controller cable you can do that indeed.
Any plans for European legal (250W / 25km/h ?) super lightweight motors? Or is there just no demand for DIY ebikes that are European legal (without being classified as a speed-pedelec)
Speed and power is limited by the controller not the motor. They have smaller less powerfull motors as well and their controllers are the most customizable on the market.
Plus Europe explicitly doesn't regulate the actual motor output or input power. Just the manufacturers nominal rated power. So this motor is perfectly legal as long as we (the Manufacturer) can justify giving it a 250 nominal power rating, which is very easy to do by spec'ing performance at 100rpm.. See the motor power table in the user manual.
Ultimately motor power laws are incredibly stupid and ill informed, and we will be releasing a video on this topic soon.
Europe is just a sh. It hole of bogus, predatory regulation
Those Santana QR inserts will likely fit my Sparta Li-ion step-thru (~2000, 24v, aluminium) to replace the old 155mm OLN DD motor/7speed cassette/Sturmey coaster brake hub.
This OLN motor had both a 7 speed cassette and a coaster brake? That seems pretty unique too!
Anyways this should work, spreading a frame dropout spacing (even an alumium one) by 5mm isn't too big of a deal.
Correction: 7-speed freewheel and drum brake.
the rear axle is catching my eye as I seen one in an AZUB tifly on your web site and if I am seeing it correctly I can still use my factory thru axle
If you see your axle spacing in the lengths below then yes!
1) 135mm Slotted Dropout
2) 142mm Thru Axle
3) 145mm Tandem Dropout
4) 148mm Boost Thru Axle
5) 157mm Superboost Thru Axle
6) 160mm Santana Dropout
7) 167mm Santana Thru-Axle
8) 170mm 4" Fatbike Dropout*
9) 177mm 4" Fatbike Thru-Axle*
10) 190mm 5" Fatbike Dropout*
11) 197mm 5" Fatbike Thru-Axle*
@@GrinTechnologies 157mm is it..... Will be at trikefest 2024 here in portland on the 15th as I see Grin tech set to be there.. Will be asking more than..
Dang it! My bike has solid spokes with an unbranded motor so can’t see myself upgrading. 😢
Seeing on yalls site that a front fatty hub w/ 45mm stators is also coming Q2 24'. Is this still on track, as well as the rear fatty 45 (for 190mm)? Really excited to try these! Also, any change in peak watts for those beyond the 1kw of existing all-axle hubs?
The rear 45mm fatbike motors are already being shipped out to customers who placed the pre-order deposits earlier this year. After we've fulfilled those we will open up general sales on our website so stay tuned!
There is no 1kW peak. There is no such thing as peak watts in any objective sense. We put that number down (pulled large from our ass) just to appease people who insist that motors should have a numeric watts rating :-) The actual power capability of any given motor is primarily a function of the the operating RPM and is not a fixed value. See:
ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/all-axle-hub-motor.html#MotorPower and
ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html
The 45mm wide motors should generally be able to handle 66% more torque and power at a given RPM than the 27mm motors. So if you want to call the 27mm motors 1kW (which is totally arbitrary), then by the same rationale the 45mm motors will be 1.6 kW.
@@GrinTechnologies That's a much more accurate way to sum up the perf and possible thresholds of sorts. Thank you for driving that home (again) for us. Torque is what we'd mainly be in-the-market for, given we have a larger cargo bike, so the fat motor hubs are worth waiting for (135mm up-front and 190mm rear drops).
Will the front fatty be debuting aprox the same time the rear one will, or is that still a 't.b.d./in-dev' item? We'd like to do BOTH the wheels at the same time, if we can purchase both hubs in the same go.
Thanks as always for what yall do - the quality (and accuracy) in your products and specs is a welcomed, fresh take in this industry!
The rears are already in full production for the customers who placed deposits, but the front fat axles only got send out for anodizing a couple days ago so it'll be a couple weeks before those are getting produced too. By the time we open up for general sales outside of the deposit customers, both the front and rear options will be there, so no problem to purchase them together!
Could you put 2 of the front motors on the rear of a trike?
If it's a trike that has a pedal tranmsission to the rear axle then no, as that requires a hub that turns with the axle while the axle in this motor has to be fixed and non rotating. But if it's a front wheel drive pedal trike, or a non-peadling trike, then for sure you can electrify both rear wheels in a single sided mount.
Hi, that’s an awesome innovation for an e bike motor. Is the motor durable for every day use. Say like 75 kms a day travel? Is motor water proofed when you get caught in the rain? I’m interested with your products and I came say it stands out against competitors.
Direct drive motors are very reliable, a good testament is Mark Havran's Journey is just one example of riding thousands of kilometers in all weather with zero problems. th-cam.com/video/a-4JPYHcfxQ/w-d-xo.html
It is compatible with 20mm with the correct lathed and machined spacers.
If you have a lathe to make your own 2 piece spindle you can make it work for sure. Or use a stock 15mm boost spindle with the stock 15mm inserts and just have a 15-20mm shim to fit the larger ID fork dropouts.
Is the fatbike motor ready
It is now! th-cam.com/video/1g-UtRWEyPI/w-d-xo.html
So I'm deciding between the STD wind and the SLOW wind version. Interestingly enough I see barely any efficiency differences between them for going up a 15% incline hill at 10kph. I was expecting to see in the order of 10% range difference, but I see more like 1-3% . Don't get me wrong, that's awesome! Because now I don't have to sacrifice my top speed. But am I interpreting that right?
It's one of the most common mistakes to assumes a slower motor wind would be more efficient. In theory with the same copper fill the efficiency and torque should be identifical for all motor winds when compared at the same conditions. The only reason for the small difference is the controller losses from the higher phase current.
Expect a video from us focused purely on this point.
The main difference between the slow and standard winds will be the maximum torque at the controllers phase current limit when the controller is in thermal rollback. But that's a controller limit, not a motor property.
Thanks! I have bought the STD wind version. I can’t wait to receive it!
That is amazing to have such a wide compatibility most manufacturers don't do this. At all. Ahem. Apple. :D Bosch.
How does the hub motor setup compare to a mid motor setup for bicycles? Thank you in advance for your input.
This hub motor is lighter than a bbshd, is more rugged, more reliable, comparable in power, easier to install, and gives fantastic regen braking for easy less bike maintenance. For off road riding a middrive is generally better, but for everything else the hub is supreme.
@@GrinTechnologies Excellent. What is the most powerful hub mtor you have? Any plans or ability to get a 4,000 or 5,000 watt with integrated 20" wheel, (like my Ninebot Max wheel-but way larger)?
Would this be compatible with pre-built e-bikes? I have an Aventon Abound Cargo bike that is struggling with its mated 750 W motor.
Changing the motor alone will not change the peak power since that is dictated by your motor controller. So normally we'd suggest you first get a higher current motor controller. If your existing motor handles it fine then great. If your motor eventually fails (stripped gears, cooked windings etc) then that is the sign you needed a larger motor too, so you can get a larger motor for your new higher power controller.
@@GrinTechnologies I have the Aventon Level 2, do you offer such a controller and hub motor to upgrade both? Would like more power but wold want to do it correctly and still use the factory battery.
Besides weight what is torque expectations for xx volts and xx amps?
As explained in the user manual, it's about 80Nm for short times, 30Nm continuous without statorade, and 40Nm continuous with statorade. The voltage has nothing to do with that.
@@GrinTechnologies thanks for the clarification
is it capable of reaching 50mph? or 80kph in your country
Any motor can do 50 kph. Just choose the winding KV and battery voltage appropriately to your wheel diameter. Whether it has the torque to push a given vehicle at that speed depends entirely on the load profile of that vehicle. You would benefit from watching:
th-cam.com/video/ALde6zhLPs0/w-d-xo.html
Legend
Who has used PAS and a torque sensor and can tell me if it's worth paying for the torque? :)
Go Grinners
At 3:07 is that a new cycle analyst? Whats up with that?
It is not a cycle analyst. It is just an ordinary generic ebike display. See the blog post about the superharness kits
Will the fat bike option be better at hill climbing?
Yes, the 45mm wide stator has a lot more torque capability than the 27mm stator, which means better hill climbing
When will it be in the SIMULATOR? I can compare with my actual setup.
@@GrinTechnologies
"February " @ambiorixcastillocina2730
Make a qs273 50h torque sensing motor.
You'll literally set the standards on hubmotors.
👍
Sorry but I just can't understand how a cassette with gears make any difference on a hub motor. I have always built mid drive motors so I am ignorant on hub motors.
It doesn't make any difference at all to the motor performance. What it affects is the rideability of the bike (ie pedaling) and the compatibility of doing retrofit conversions on exiting bike platforms without having to change or downgrade the existing drivetrain.
😁
I got chinse motors i regret it but i didnt found this before...
Chinese hub motors are good value for sure, but for the last 10 years they've been totally stagnant in design innovation or pushing any boundaries.
@@GrinTechnologies idk nine came with errors and already over heating with less than 10thousand km
we did not need that ai image...
Care to clarify what image in this video you thought was created by AI? We are extremely curious to know.
I don't understand your website, like there are no specifications on any of your hub motors, no watts, no voltage, no rpm nothing to give me an idea of how many mph I can achieve if I pair it with other motors and battery
I'm not sure how we could make it any more explicit:
ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/all-axle-hub-motor.html#MotorSpeed
ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/all-axle-hub-motor.html#MotorPower
And of course:
ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html
and
ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
and
ebikes.ca/tools/trip-simulator.html
I don’t even know what the hell that thing is and how it got recommended to me
It's an e-bike motor like it says in the video.
Their products are great, but if you have any issues with them, the company will not answer requests for warranty returns. I have been trying to contact them for over a month now with no response.
Hi Erik, can you try sending an email from a different amount? . You have not responded to any of our emails either so there could well be something amiss with your email server.
It's a shame you're not based in the UK, I have a motor designed that will wipe out all competition guaranteed!
I've approached manufacturers here in the UK and they didn't even bother getting back to me, obviously I didn't show them the designed and only stated that my designed should come close to double the output of a conventional ebike motor.. sounds far fetched right? 🤣 Not when you understand conventional ebike motors waste half the energy being put in as I do. So what I'm talking about is essentially producing a motor that requires 1000watts but outputs 2000watts (or near that) in torque. An efficient motor makes an efficient generator in this case, bolt two motors together so one motor rotates the other and if we're putting in 1000 watts we should get 2000watts... 5000wats in 10,000watts out..
If you believe in Einsteins theory of relativity you not thinking "this guy is nuts" but I know Einstein was a clever fool as in, clever at fooling people. Einstein's theory of relativity completely does away with the existence of the Aether, his theory is fraud/lies.
A magnet sticks to metal at room temperature and no energy is being put in, that is cold fusion apparently, a magnet alone proves the theory of relativity as BS as nothing is being put into the magnet and yet it still has energy. A magnets energy isn't relative to any energy being put in, "boom" goes the theory of relativity proving Einstein was a fraud 👍😊
Can you explain the gaps between those topics? You keep jumping around until it becomes word salad.
I bought the old model. It was quite pricey and I had to wait a few months for it to arrive in Australia. It never worked and the customer service was awful. I won’t purchase anything else from Grin
Hi do you still have it?
Sounds like you're not the DIY kind of customer. Why didn't you buy a full bike from a local bike shop so you wouldn't have to use any tools yourself?
"Never worked" sounds like a crock. It's a DD motor. There's literally nothing to go wrong with it. Just shaddup and buy a Bosch bike for $10k...you seem like the type!
What about a fatbike front motor version?
Yes, that will be coming too! You can already use our 27mm motors on fatbikes just fine with the axle extender set, but there will be a 45mm option as well for higher continuous power capability. There is a limitation to how much torque you can have on a front hub without loosing traction, but fat bike tires tend to be a lot grippier so front wheel skidding should be less of a concern here.
@@GrinTechnologies your BLDC controller already supports ABS braking?