The torque sensing is very interesting. I'd like to see the comparison of the version in the hub vs something like the electrostatic in the bottom brackets. Torque multiplication is wonderful and the best for getting people to enjoy adding effort. The cadence sensors never made me feel like I was riding a bicycle, rather turning it on and off with un-necessary pedaling (ghost). Love how the torque sensing is making it into the DIY space.
I like the idea of less noise and equal or better performance. I wish UBCO would consider using this in their work bike . Maybe you can make it happen!
Yeah the performance of the bafang G62 is great, it's an impressive motor. This is just a tad heavier (20%) to get that same performance with a direct drive all the benefits of regen.
My dual motor fat bike with geared hub motors weighs 38kg. I don’t really see the advantage if I was to have one of these motors. The gears inside are super cheap and easy to replace.
Assuming you don't care about the integrated torque sensor, the main advantage would be regenerative braking, which most people don't realize how much they miss until they experience it. But yeah we would never suggest people change things around if they are happy with their current setup. And dual geared motors has crazy good climbing performance.
@@justinw1765 mine are just bafang clone 1000w rated geared motors from china. If the gears inside last 5000 miles before replacement then I’ll be happy with that lol. That would be 2 years of commuting for me.
These things are cool, but I really wish they'd take all their experience and do an in-house geared motor that does regen with all-axle capability. The reality is that most people just don't need the benefits a direct drive has and the smaller size and lighter weight of a geared motor is better suited to the application of a basic commuter/casual ride bike. (Think Shengyi SX series but with a better axle situation) That said, I'm glad these exist and I'm contemplating what kind of non-bike things could be fun to drive with one or two of these on a high current controller
Well done ! Would love to see the rear version fit 135mm qr or 142mm thru axle with a single speed sprocket. It would be a dream combination for single speed setups of pinion gearbox setups. Any ideas ?
You just need to use a single cog on the freehub along with a set of spacers to position it right on your chainline. There are many places that sell single speed cog systems for cassettes.
@@arlendetraz1863 Oh sorry I totally misread that, my apologies and thanks for clarifying. The company that makes the torque sensing freehubs does in fact have a screw-on freewheel model which would support this. It's on our radar but requires quite a bit of axle customization. Perhaps a 2025 project! I agree that combination with a Pinion would be pretty killer. Plus various chopper bike frames that are just single speed with 135 dropouts.
@GrinTechnologies maybe the 45mm front motor could be adapted to fit a single speed frewheel? In any case I'd be interesting to see such motor, I think there is a market for it. If you think about it, most 45mm width stator users run single speed.
When it comes to high power densities in a small package nothing beats stuff engineered for r/c! As long as the crossover doesn't include lipo batteries it's all good :-)
@@StereodreieckRCShitty cycle lives, only lasting a few years when the best modern 21700s can last 10+ years of abusive use or 20-30 years with moderate use, poor energy density and the best modern lithium batteries (especially the newest tabless cells) they barely even provide more current than for a given weight.
If all you are interested in is the motor power output specs, it is not any better. It's exactly the same motor structure (46 magents, 51teeth, 205mm Dia) but since the QS motors are double the weight they take longer to get hot and overheat as there is so much metal mass to absorb that thermal energy. You would consider this motor over a qs if you care about bike frame compatibility, motor weight, integrated torque arm, integrated torque sensor, quick release removal etc. (and money isn't much of an issue.) The actual technical specs are fully detailed in the two tables in the video though. KV, R, L, Eddie and hystersis losses, and weight. That's what actually dictates a motor performance.
It's compatible with basically all fatbike frames, and would work with basically any controller / battery combination capable of driving a BLDC motor. But as far as using the integrated torque sensor, you would also need a control system that can use an analog torque voltage and quadrature cadence signal to command the system. Majority of bottom bracket torque sensors operate that way so we would expect decent compatibility among programmable electronics with torque sensor inputs. European regulations (en15194) apply to complete bike as a system. You can build up an ebike with this motor that is compatible or one that is not, that's up to the manufacturer. There really isn't a consideration at all for conversion kits in Europe which is a shame. So all conversion system ebikes are legally grey zone regardless of nominal motor specs.
The regen qualities are the same regardless of whether a human is involved or not, mostly it is there to recapture energy from stop and go and greatly extend the brake pad life. You'd need like an 84V or 96V battery to get 55 mph though. It's not exactly intended for that but it could do it with the right high voltage motor controller
We love seeing people customize their kit this way with colour painted hubs to match the bike. If you end up doing that be sure to upload some pics to our project gallery!
I appreciate the products, but with the prices >triple the diy segment, it makes no sense to build with these rather than buy one of the surron style completes that are rapidly evolving and fiercely competing for roughly the same pricing segment. $900+shipping for a hub motor is insane when you can get a complete Talaria XXX for $2600.
For sure, we're not trying to compete with complete Chinese factory ebikes. In a similar way it's more expensive to build your own furniture than to buy something ready made. But in spite of that there are countless people who buy their own wood and specialty tools and build custom furniture for themselves. It's more expensive and time consuming than getting something from a store but there's a whole hobby woodworking industry to support them. Those are the people who we're hoping to help! It's a small minority of the population but it's enough to support our little enterprise and we're happy about that.
Vivement que vous sortiez des moteurs moins large. Est-ce fait ? Pour l’avant d’un Vélomobile type quatre vélo . Qui pourrait faire le bras avant avec amortisseur pour mettre vos roues ?. Seul le Suisse Dario en est capable et bien sûr Le Breton Denez Bodennec. Si vous avez un avis, des solutions je suis preneur. Merci
All I really want is hub motors to stop being built into spoked rims and instead just built into mag wheels. I don't care about a little motor noise. Get rid of the nylon gears and we're all set.
That's certainly not Grin's goal at all, we make pedaling and pedal sensing systems front and central to our kits and product design. But we also don't judge to harshly those who want to be able scoot around on an efficient 2 wheeler without always pedalling. It's way better for everyone than them driving a car.
@@GrinTechnologiestrue, there's clearly an customer ask for most torque and it's good that high quality firms like Grin develop new product rather than let chinese brands dictate a standard with average (bad..) motors
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa Highest standard XDR You can run up to a 13 speed on a HG Plenty company's make very good and very light 12-speed cassettes for HG I would say the sham free wheel is for rich people Unfortunately my income isn't in millions so I will stick with HG 😀
Yeah not downplaying HG at all, it is the industry standard by a long shot and widely supported! But the one thing it can't do is small 9 or 10t cogs which are really useful for pedaling at high speeds. So that is one distinct advantage of XD if you have the $$$
You are wrong saying that torque stats are more important than power, the law requires the power of a motor to be whatever the local law states, and torque means nothing to the law. In many places, no wattage marked on the motor makes it illegal.
Have a read of the user manual where this is addressed directly. The law does not understand what the law is even asking. Hopefully people with more patience in beaurocracy than us will fix it one day. What do you make of the fact that a 250 watt Bosch ebike actually pulls more like 700 watts from the battery?
The most commonly misunderstood legality, Euro ebikes are not 250w, its a nominal continous paramater for legislation, the new 1000w dji midrive is perfectly legal, its really just a speed limit.
@@chargeriderepeat7024 And even as a nominal continuous parameter it's dumb, since there is not meaningful way to define or characterize that. It's just a nameplate sticker from the manufacturer. This will be the subject of one of our upcoming videos. A properly formed legislation that is way easier to enforce and way more sensible would simply have 1) a speed limit ( say 25-30 kph for bike paths, and 40-45kph for roads shared with cars) 2) An acceleration limit (to prevent skid-out and overpowering, the motorized wheel can only accelerate at a modest and safe rate) No limits on throttles vs pedal control (that has no safety ramification), no explicit power limit, (or something ~2000 watts which is what it takes to move a cargo bike up a hill at 25 kph).
Except that this hub is a quick release system, making it nearly as fast to remove as a regular wheel. There's a single M5 screw to loosen the torque arm, and then it pops right out. Definitely easier to remove than a regular IGH hub or a hub with drum or roller brakes built in. It's not a necessity that hub motors are a PITA for flat tire repair. It's just that we've allowed copycat Chinese designs to dominate the scene, and what they all keep copying is a silly design (axle flats with external torque arm and poorly thought cable exits).
@@GrinTechnologies Better but still heavy. Had a few problems with QR over the years so I'm upgrading to thru Axle. This is the first thru Axle hub I've seen so that is a major push forward. Thinking this is the motor Lucas has. Will this take a Burley Coho QR without hitting the motor wire? My first ebike was a rear hub. 1000w CSC. Major junk. With a bolt on wheel. It ate a spoke every 100mi. Then I moved on to the BBSHD. One day I might rebuild that ebike with a better hub. Could make for a good video! IDK.
There is a full continuum from pure bicycles to motorcycles and everything in between. It will be very nice to one day have a legal landscape that reflects that, along with road rules that are tailored to each option instead of classifying everything either as a bicycle or a full fledged motor vehicle (of which these aren't even close). In europe they are at least considering this with the class of "Vehicule Intermediaiares", bonpote.com/les-vehicules-intermediaires-lavenir-de-la-mobilite/ Hopefully sensible policy will catch up with the times.
I was one of the beta testers. These things are awesome. Can't wait to add one to the front too.
Can it go in a spokeless rim?
The torque sensing is very interesting. I'd like to see the comparison of the version in the hub vs something like the electrostatic in the bottom brackets. Torque multiplication is wonderful and the best for getting people to enjoy adding effort. The cadence sensors never made me feel like I was riding a bicycle, rather turning it on and off with un-necessary pedaling (ghost). Love how the torque sensing is making it into the DIY space.
Great work as always, you guys.
6kg weight with 45mm stator is mind blowing.
I'm in need of three of these. The third one is for the sidecar.😉
We gotta see it! Side cars are the best.
@GrinTechnologies I live in the mountains so I want to do it for ever. Keep up the good work 👍
You might have a buyer in the UK here. Love this.
Ok now i just need a video of you guys adding this to the RAD RUNNER 2
You guys make really crazy stuff!
I like the idea of less noise and equal or better performance. I wish UBCO would consider using this in their work bike . Maybe you can make it happen!
The 1000w bafang with the 6.5 wind is very capable on a black diamond trail, definitely climbs better than a 250w mid drive.
Yeah the performance of the bafang G62 is great, it's an impressive motor. This is just a tad heavier (20%) to get that same performance with a direct drive all the benefits of regen.
@GrinTechnologies not a speed demon though, the one I have will do 31 mph
My dual motor fat bike with geared hub motors weighs 38kg. I don’t really see the advantage if I was to have one of these motors. The gears inside are super cheap and easy to replace.
Plus the ones encased in steel on the outside allegedly last a pretty long time.
Assuming you don't care about the integrated torque sensor, the main advantage would be regenerative braking, which most people don't realize how much they miss until they experience it.
But yeah we would never suggest people change things around if they are happy with their current setup. And dual geared motors has crazy good climbing performance.
@@justinw1765 mine are just bafang clone 1000w rated geared motors from china. If the gears inside last 5000 miles before replacement then I’ll be happy with that lol. That would be 2 years of commuting for me.
These things are cool, but I really wish they'd take all their experience and do an in-house geared motor that does regen with all-axle capability. The reality is that most people just don't need the benefits a direct drive has and the smaller size and lighter weight of a geared motor is better suited to the application of a basic commuter/casual ride bike. (Think Shengyi SX series but with a better axle situation)
That said, I'm glad these exist and I'm contemplating what kind of non-bike things could be fun to drive with one or two of these on a high current controller
This looks awesome! Any chance we get an update on Freegen soon?
Uff podré comprar un par para México?
Just got that q3 and literally checked y'all's site before I did. Installed it last week lmao
Cool idea!
Well done ! Would love to see the rear version fit 135mm qr or 142mm thru axle with a single speed sprocket. It would be a dream combination for single speed setups of pinion gearbox setups. Any ideas ?
You just need to use a single cog on the freehub along with a set of spacers to position it right on your chainline. There are many places that sell single speed cog systems for cassettes.
@@GrinTechnologies Sorry, I meant to make the grin FAT rear work with single speed to get it in a tight 135qr or 142TA
@@arlendetraz1863 Oh sorry I totally misread that, my apologies and thanks for clarifying. The company that makes the torque sensing freehubs does in fact have a screw-on freewheel model which would support this. It's on our radar but requires quite a bit of axle customization. Perhaps a 2025 project! I agree that combination with a Pinion would be pretty killer. Plus various chopper bike frames that are just single speed with 135 dropouts.
@GrinTechnologies maybe the 45mm front motor could be adapted to fit a single speed frewheel? In any case I'd be interesting to see such motor, I think there is a market for it. If you think about it, most 45mm width stator users run single speed.
Castle Creations bullet plugs? love the RC cross-over!
When it comes to high power densities in a small package nothing beats stuff engineered for r/c! As long as the crossover doesn't include lipo batteries it's all good :-)
@@GrinTechnologies OK, important safety note, don't run my bike on hobbyking bricks... LOL
@@GrinTechnologies Whats bad about LIPOs ?
@@StereodreieckRCShitty cycle lives, only lasting a few years when the best modern 21700s can last 10+ years of abusive use or 20-30 years with moderate use, poor energy density and the best modern lithium batteries (especially the newest tabless cells) they barely even provide more current than for a given weight.
Would have liked some more specs.
Cant see why this is any better than what QS motors dish out.
If all you are interested in is the motor power output specs, it is not any better. It's exactly the same motor structure (46 magents, 51teeth, 205mm Dia) but since the QS motors are double the weight they take longer to get hot and overheat as there is so much metal mass to absorb that thermal energy.
You would consider this motor over a qs if you care about bike frame compatibility, motor weight, integrated torque arm, integrated torque sensor, quick release removal etc. (and money isn't much of an issue.)
The actual technical specs are fully detailed in the two tables in the video though. KV, R, L, Eddie and hystersis losses, and weight. That's what actually dictates a motor performance.
any QS205 type coming?
Bad ass i wonder will it take my family arround the word
What about comliance with German or european laws ? What love to see more videos about compatible controllers, batteries and frames.
It's compatible with basically all fatbike frames, and would work with basically any controller / battery combination capable of driving a BLDC motor. But as far as using the integrated torque sensor, you would also need a control system that can use an analog torque voltage and quadrature cadence signal to command the system. Majority of bottom bracket torque sensors operate that way so we would expect decent compatibility among programmable electronics with torque sensor inputs.
European regulations (en15194) apply to complete bike as a system. You can build up an ebike with this motor that is compatible or one that is not, that's up to the manufacturer. There really isn't a consideration at all for conversion kits in Europe which is a shame. So all conversion system ebikes are legally grey zone regardless of nominal motor specs.
cant wait to push 5kw through one of these
Wow great technology ….
I need to test one
I would be curious to know what the regen qualities could be with other than human power at higher speeds above say 55mph. These motors look robust.
The regen qualities are the same regardless of whether a human is involved or not, mostly it is there to recapture energy from stop and go and greatly extend the brake pad life. You'd need like an 84V or 96V battery to get 55 mph though. It's not exactly intended for that but it could do it with the right high voltage motor controller
Im going to get one of these
Just one? E-unicycle? 😉
@JonPrevost No I'll use it for a rear motor on my fat bike and maybe paint it up all nice before lacing it with some coloured flexible spokes....
We love seeing people customize their kit this way with colour painted hubs to match the bike. If you end up doing that be sure to upload some pics to our project gallery!
300 Amp ebike? DO IT! :D
More heater than transportation vehicle.
Don't palm strike narrow, metal objects, my guy! Nerve damage potential
i want two of them (front and rear) in my 26 fatty 😂
I appreciate the products, but with the prices >triple the diy segment, it makes no sense to build with these rather than buy one of the surron style completes that are rapidly evolving and fiercely competing for roughly the same pricing segment. $900+shipping for a hub motor is insane when you can get a complete Talaria XXX for $2600.
For sure, we're not trying to compete with complete Chinese factory ebikes. In a similar way it's more expensive to build your own furniture than to buy something ready made. But in spite of that there are countless people who buy their own wood and specialty tools and build custom furniture for themselves. It's more expensive and time consuming than getting something from a store but there's a whole hobby woodworking industry to support them. Those are the people who we're hoping to help!
It's a small minority of the population but it's enough to support our little enterprise and we're happy about that.
Vivement que vous sortiez des moteurs moins large. Est-ce fait ?
Pour l’avant d’un Vélomobile type quatre vélo .
Qui pourrait faire le bras avant avec amortisseur pour mettre vos roues ?.
Seul le Suisse Dario en est capable et bien sûr Le Breton Denez Bodennec.
Si vous avez un avis, des solutions je suis preneur. Merci
Un moteur d'épaisseur 17mm est aussi prevenue
All I really want is hub motors to stop being built into spoked rims and instead just built into mag wheels. I don't care about a little motor noise. Get rid of the nylon gears and we're all set.
Agreed, those bafang allow wheels really eliminate the need for servicing every few years and I'm guessing they're about the same weight?
Haha I have that same shirt in green
ultimate goal of eBike makers: that we never get to pedal ever again
Ultimate goal of eBike makers: Sell any and all shit that people will buy.
That's certainly not Grin's goal at all, we make pedaling and pedal sensing systems front and central to our kits and product design. But we also don't judge to harshly those who want to be able scoot around on an efficient 2 wheeler without always pedalling. It's way better for everyone than them driving a car.
@@GrinTechnologiestrue, there's clearly an customer ask for most torque and it's good that high quality firms like Grin develop new product rather than let chinese brands dictate a standard with average (bad..) motors
@@GrinTechnologies you should introduce a generator
In for a penny, in for a pound. If I only had a functioning credit card we could play all day : (
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa
Highest standard XDR
You can run up to a 13 speed on a HG
Plenty company's make very good and very light 12-speed cassettes for HG
I would say the sham free wheel is for rich people
Unfortunately my income isn't in millions so I will stick with HG 😀
Yeah not downplaying HG at all, it is the industry standard by a long shot and widely supported! But the one thing it can't do is small 9 or 10t cogs which are really useful for pedaling at high speeds. So that is one distinct advantage of XD if you have the $$$
You are wrong saying that torque stats are more important than power, the law requires the power of a motor to be whatever the local law states, and torque means nothing to the law. In many places, no wattage marked on the motor makes it illegal.
Have a read of the user manual where this is addressed directly. The law does not understand what the law is even asking. Hopefully people with more patience in beaurocracy than us will fix it one day.
What do you make of the fact that a 250 watt Bosch ebike actually pulls more like 700 watts from the battery?
The most commonly misunderstood legality, Euro ebikes are not 250w, its a nominal continous paramater for legislation, the new 1000w dji midrive is perfectly legal, its really just a speed limit.
@@chargeriderepeat7024 And even as a nominal continuous parameter it's dumb, since there is not meaningful way to define or characterize that. It's just a nameplate sticker from the manufacturer. This will be the subject of one of our upcoming videos.
A properly formed legislation that is way easier to enforce and way more sensible would simply have
1) a speed limit ( say 25-30 kph for bike paths, and 40-45kph for roads shared with cars)
2) An acceleration limit (to prevent skid-out and overpowering, the motorized wheel can only accelerate at a modest and safe rate)
No limits on throttles vs pedal control (that has no safety ramification), no explicit power limit, (or something ~2000 watts which is what it takes to move a cargo bike up a hill at 25 kph).
@@GrinTechnologies so would this be legal where maximum power is 500W ?
Still not the biggest fan of hubs. Main reason is hubs are not fun with flats.
Except that this hub is a quick release system, making it nearly as fast to remove as a regular wheel. There's a single M5 screw to loosen the torque arm, and then it pops right out. Definitely easier to remove than a regular IGH hub or a hub with drum or roller brakes built in.
It's not a necessity that hub motors are a PITA for flat tire repair. It's just that we've allowed copycat Chinese designs to dominate the scene, and what they all keep copying is a silly design (axle flats with external torque arm and poorly thought cable exits).
@@GrinTechnologies Better but still heavy. Had a few problems with QR over the years so I'm upgrading to thru Axle. This is the first thru Axle hub I've seen so that is a major push forward.
Thinking this is the motor Lucas has. Will this take a Burley Coho QR without hitting the motor wire?
My first ebike was a rear hub. 1000w CSC. Major junk. With a bolt on wheel. It ate a spoke every 100mi. Then I moved on to the BBSHD.
One day I might rebuild that ebike with a better hub. Could make for a good video! IDK.
These electric bikes are basically uninsured and unregistered motorcycles and the riders are unlicensed motorcyclists.
There is a full continuum from pure bicycles to motorcycles and everything in between. It will be very nice to one day have a legal landscape that reflects that, along with road rules that are tailored to each option instead of classifying everything either as a bicycle or a full fledged motor vehicle (of which these aren't even close).
In europe they are at least considering this with the class of "Vehicule Intermediaiares",
bonpote.com/les-vehicules-intermediaires-lavenir-de-la-mobilite/
Hopefully sensible policy will catch up with the times.
Bet your fun a parties.
@ I am 👍