First, I wanted to say thank you for all the wonderful support I have been receiving. I didn’t except that last video would go viral. This video featured some of the same talking points with more elaboration (and hopefully better support). The combat encounters were mostly enjoyable here but with this being a sequel to a story focused game, the bad writing drags everything down. Thank you for watching! And if you want a more positive video, then I invite you to look at my hour long retrospective for the first game! I cover all aspects from development, to story and gameplay. I absolutely love that game, ended perfectly. I’m so glad they never made another one 😉 Link: th-cam.com/video/516fHsZoY2g/w-d-xo.html
Your review comes from the sense of entitlement. Go watch Cosmonaut Variety Hour review for matured view of the game. th-cam.com/video/Jiq0nR8ndD0/w-d-xo.html
Oh that guy! He likes to make a lot of assertions but never provides any examples. It is all statements with little to know substantiation. A good example of this is with his Star Wars Prequel Video or his Spider-man trilogy video. I’d love to see some examples of my “entitlement”
Joe, The Alternative Gamer- Manipulation, deceit and disrespectfulness? NO! I disagree completely! Naughty Dog had forewarned everyone that tlou 2 would be dark, gritty and take gamers out of their comfort zones. Imo this is the mark of brilliant storywriting, combine that with top notch gameplay and you have a masterpiece. Now everyone wants to complain and boycott naughty dog for what they've worked hard to create. Idk about you, but I have been waiting for tlou 2 for a ling time. It is many of these haters that are being very disrespectful and petty. They call all the gaming journalists shills and frauds, they call me nasty, profane names if I say that I like tlou 2. The stupid dumb ass jokes 'tlou 2 is a great golf simulator', '10/10 because it has lgbtq'. BS like that! These haters should be getting the heat, NOT naughty dog!
@Daniel Moung What specifically did you disagree with? Joe made a lot of good points, especially about the pacing and characterization, you sound more like your hurt that people have been toxic towards you and Naughty Dog.
@Z Ξ R Ξ N Λ D L I Cosmonaut is hilarious but he misunderstands several times why people dislike the game, he only addresses that people hate that Joel dies, never does he address that people are mad how he dies. He also doesn’t think the game is a masterpiece, he sees heavy flaws with the pacing and gives it 6.5/10.
IMO Joel probably died thinking he failed AGAIN to protect his daughter, knowing that he saw Ellie pinned to the ground by a bunch of people who would most likely kill her....
Not only that if you pay attention to the first game and when Joel and Ellie meet Sam and Henry,Ellie gives out her and Joel‘s names. And by Joel’s body language he seems to be uncomfortable. It’s understandable that Ellie wouldn’t know any better. But Tommy has the exact same experience as Joel and the fact that he gives out their names moments after meeting Abby is just ridiculous. And being part of a settlement doesn’t “soften” you. If anything it would make you even more cautious to outsiders and the possibility that they could be a danger to that settlement.
The Last of Us was all for nothing though. It’s what made the ending great. Part 1 they go on a journey for a cure. In the end they don’t get it. Part 2 Ellie goes on a quest for revenge, and that didn’t happen either
Another terrible part of Joel’s death scene is that he literally just falls into Abby’s lap. They just happen to conveniently run into each other in the middle of a blizzard. You’re telling me after 7 years the best Naughty Dog could come with is Joel and Abby running into each other accidentally? Why couldn’t Abby actually track Joel down? Why not have her interrogate someone else who was out on patrol or overhear a conversation that mentions Joel to pinpoint his whereabouts? But nope, Naughty Dog just has Joel and Abby meet by pure coincidence, what utterly lazy writing.
Good point. I don’t think it’s lazy though because they spent a lot of time and effort on it. I think it’s a lack of creativity and actually overthinking it. Sometimes when you overthink something you get lost and lose the plot especially when everyone is kissing your ass and makes you think whatever you come up with is good.
THIS!!. This get's me every time. So Abby get's woken up in the middle of the night. Get's shown where Joel could "possibly" be. Runs to the nearest watch tower, has no idea where the hell she is going. So happens to run into Joel and Tommy?. That is just BS writing right there.
It’s not lazy. It’s not a case of just “meeting by coincidence”. Abby went looking for Joel near Jackson and got chased by clickers into Joel’s patrol path. Joel saves her and they get chased back to her hideout where she kills him. It’s like that to show you despite Joel saving. Abbys life she still went ahead and killed him.
Same coincidences are happening in all games and movies. Do you think that all the other events that are happening to you are something else? There are always only as many enemies you can handle, you can always escape from almost impossible situation, there is always a way forward and so on. If you wanted to make games real, it would be pretty boring.
I mean, she kind of did track him down. For four years. She got 95% of the way there. They were within walking distance of one another and bumped into each other. It's still contrived, but not nearly as big of a contrivance as you're making it out to be.
I can understand why Joel had to die to kickstart Ellie's spiral into darkness. (The Death of no other character could have inacted that much emotion from her and the player) But it should have been done without making Joel seem dumb and incompetent.
And maybe they shouldn't have edited Joels Character Model into trailers to assume he would accompany us on a journey of mentioned revenge to lure us to buy the game. Never felt so scammed tbh.
It didn't show he was dumb. He lived in Jackson for 4 years the only trouble in 4 years they encounter was infected you can find that out by ready the notes around Jackson. He been helping people for 4 years letting people into Jackson. He had no reason not to trust abby because they were just normal people so he thought. He save abby life so he had no reason not to trust her people do get caught of guard. Joel was a different person as well you can see this by looking in his home.
David Lowery So 4 years in a nice little town makes you forget about the savagery of the outside world, as well as the way you’ve been (a savage) for 20+ years? Gtfoh...
I hate how people use the excuse Joel became softer because of ellie or because he got older or some shit . Just because you become more of a softer person doesn't mean you abandon your experience all together when and become more naive he is not a kid he is a grown ass man. Especially not if infected are still around and people still walk around armed.
Completely agree, it was so heartwarming to see him be the soft, loving father figure while still being a badass, he repeatedly stabs a Bloater to death for grabbing Ellie! Also hate how she treats and speaks to him, comes across as ungrateful brat to the man who risked his life dozens of times to save her and give her a "normal" life in Jackson while teaching her to play guitar, how to swim ect. The museum chapter is the best thing out of all of it, that's the game the fans wanted.
Lmao go over to a channel like Tajae and try to make this great argument in the comment section..you will see some of the most ignorant people you will ever contact. They are the “seee context matters” crowd. Even with context it’s still a shit sandwich...
that argument is immeditely defeated by the opening of the first game when he had zero knowledge of any infection. Just a run in with his neighbor and he was willing to kill to protect his daughter there and that was his damn neighbor. A man he knew for who knows how long the instant he showed a threat he killed him. Then not stopping for the family on the road before they witnesses the mass evacuation and the imminent carnage that follows. So before the apocalypse when everything would have been MOST NORMAL and family like for joel, just that very evening when he comes home on the phone begging for a new contract to go through and he is immediately in fight mode despite all his life before that living as a normal father and going to work everyday like the rest of us. Joel has lived that normal cushy life and he still bounced out of it no problem for survival sake. So the argument living a bit nicer in jackson for 5 years holds zero weight because even that life, with him and tommy still being scouts and dealing with danger is still more dangerous than living before the apocalypse and even then he was ready to go on the spot.
It was 4 years where Joel was taught to take people in and trust strangers and help them not to distrust or anything like that same goes for timing it is not the same Joel like this creator is a dumbass it even states in Ellie’s journal that they trusted people that they saw by camp and traded with them and trusted them
You: "I'm just like, 'That's nice but you killed Joel.' Me: "I'm just like, 'That's nice but not only did you kill Joel but you had her and her crew kick him, torture him, and then spit on him. Right after he saved her life.' It's extremely hard to buy in after that.
Thats the whole reason why its so good, you have to try to love this story selflessly and for what it is, because you cannot love this game selfishly in ways that you wish for the better of the characters, it demands so much more of yourself and your feelings and its one of a kind for that. Loving this selfishly will just drive you to hate what you love.
I've been seeing people pointing out the Joel & Ellie flashback scenes are some of the highlights of part 2 but I didn't feel a thing when experiencing those myself. Why? Well Joel died like a bitch. They made it so. And not to mention fucking 6 hours ago?? And you expect me to care now?? Horrendous pacing and storyline order.
@@spicytoast6890 spicy toast Abby's intro starts with her kicking the figurative dog. No amount of literal dog petting was going to bring her back for me. If it is selfish to want a better character build up before a new character kills off an old one, I'm fine with being selfish in that aspect. It is demanding way more than what I'm willing to give up in order to like it because there are plenty of ways that they could have killed Joel and got me to sympathize with Abby but the way it was done here was not it for me. Maybe for you but I am not you.
Remember in the original last of us when Bill saves joel? I think this is a perfect comparison of how you do a scene where a character saves another seemingly out of nowhere and not have it be contrived. Let me explain. Bill mentions after the fact through a line of dialogue how he came across joel. It wasn't coincidental. "You come into my house. You set off all my traps." This type of dialogue in a casual playthrough usually goes unnoticed but it's the writers cleverly addressing how Bill found him. Bill had to check what was causing the explosions because not only does he live there as evidenced by the dialogue, so he has to keep his home safe, but also because it could be hunters in the area. "As bad as those things are, at least they're predictable. It's the normal people that scare me." This further explains why Bill went to investigate the noise and thus came across joel. He's paranoid and scared of people. I also appreciate the fact that the developers make you clear two wire traps before joel gets hoisted up. Those traps aren't just there to be a barrier, they add context to the narrative through gameplay. By comparison the 'joel saving Abby' scene is nowhere near as coherent and that's what irritates us. It's not Joel dying or even how he died. It's the events that preceeded his death. You have to suspend your disbelief in order for this to work. I'll go over my complaints. Owen shows Abby the settlement. Tells her about a patrol then decides to turn back. Having only seen it for 30 seconds she decides to wing it and go for one of the outposts. She kills some runners then discovers the patrol's horse tracks...In a blizzard. I'm not an expert on snow hydrology but I would assume tracks get covered real fast in a blizzard. Shortly after she gets overwhelmed with dozens of infected. Amazing how none of them got her. Just when she's cornered, Joel saves her. Convenient given that she was running aimlessly to get away from danger, and that just so happened to lead her to the exact location Joel was in. Again, in the original, Bill found Joel as a result of Joel trying to find him. As for Joel making the conscious decision to save her, I half buy it. I understand that he's more compassionate and less cynical from his time with Ellie, but that doesn't mean he has to risk his life for a stranger, but I'll go with it. As for the name drop, this is inexcusable bad writing. Even Ellie refused to give her name to David. A 14 year old had more common sense than adults with 2 dozen years of experience. Abby should have discovered their identity on her own through manipulation. Lastly, trusting Abby back to her hideout is either another character contradiction or plain stupidity they've both developed off-screen. People argue that Joel trusted Henry, but this is false. Firstly, he was largely withdrawn. He cuts Ellie off when she gives her name, then immediately asks "How many are with you?" After Ellie suggests they band together, without hesitation he disapproves. After some convincing and thinking on it, he reluctantly agrees. Again, good writers anticipate that people will look for issues like this and take steps to assure you never find them.
@@usul573 This is sooo fucking true oh my god!! When Tommy and Joel hear that horde they get the fuck outta there. They wouldn't go there to see what's up. Wow reading all these comments about stupid plot holes just to kill my favourite character actually makes me hate the game again lol.
@@sebastiankroneder2774 In TLOU1 Joel says "Keep driving Tommy" and leaves three people to an uncertain fate when there is no immediate danger, but in TLOU2 he puts himself into so much danger for one unknown person? You can't see very well in a blizzard too.
@@thesenamesguys6283 a dozen of heavily armed fit young strangers (Tommy even knew they were WLF and he seemed to have heard of them) camping dangerously close to your settlement and they clearly lie to you. Let's invite them home, sure...
92brunod I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy the game and couldn’t get past Abby if you could you would realize the game is amazing and a work of art. Also there hospitable people and if they went back to the settlement they’d be completely out numbered
My man Joel nailed a bloater with nothing but giant balls and a machete. There’s nothing soft about him man he even walks around Jackson with a raging hard on all year round
I'm not really sure about that...it was in the beginnig and the first part of the game of course...but along the story many people changed their opinion about Abby...is a controversial character...
Joel lost his daughter Sarah due to trust. Trust in a human at that. He trusted that soldier that gunned them down. & it was Game over after that. They tried to make him seem more like a selfish monster in the sequel, but this is something I thought of while playing. Joel reminds me of Captain Americas Infinity war quote “we don’t trade lives”. Cap wouldn’t trade Visions life even if could potentially save the World. & we saw Cap take anyone down who tried to hurt Bucky in Civil War. & we saw the same with Joel. He wouldn’t trade the life of Ellie, even if it meant saving the world. He would persist on finding another way... Joel was a human, scarred by the years of nightmares. He suffered, but he endured. He & the millions of Joel fans have been disrespected. #golfclub
Facts. People really seem to believe that it just takes 4 small years for joel to go soft and become more trustworthy of people. He has been surviving for over 20 years and wasn't someone you could gain his trust easily. Living in comfort didn't soften him up. They're clear moments in tlou2 that shows the viewer Joel is still as cautious and untrustworthy of others as ever. But most people(fanboys mostly) don't even acknowledge them that much. Neil wanted a game people would hate and he got exactly just that because tlou2 sales were down by 85% in the first week of release. Now I'm not ever gonna blame the talented Devs, Artists, 3D modelers, Engine programmers, etc. Its Neil that is to blame since he was the one in charge of this project. This is no one's fault but his own.
Honestly this sequel really wasn’t needed in my head this whole “story” is just a bad dream that Ellie has and her and Joel are living there best lives together forever❤️
I hope sony orders naughtydog to correct this shitty story implementing a dlc where it shows it was all a nightmare in Ellie's infected brain. Please Sony, give the order and take my money!
Brilliant review, it's just such a shame and disapointment for a game we were all so excited for, to see and play as Joel and Ellie again but no. What pisses me off is Naughty Dog deliberately mislead and lied to us with Joel in the trailers, used a beloved character to market it so we'd believe he would be central to the story and then to kill him in the most disgusting way. The whole game felt so empty without him, except of course the flashbacks, the Birthday surprise was so beautiful and the best part of the whole game.
Birthday flashback and the flashback scene where you snipe infected were awesome. Felt like Last of Us 1. The relationship of Ellie and Joel that we all love. Shame it equated to like an hour of gameplay
You absolutely hit the nail on the head here man - this game did a massive disservice to Joel and DID NOT treat him properly. I just want to explain why I hate it because like many other people its bothering me too - (Like you put it) - Joel's death - No surprise there - However, its not the fact that he "died" that bothers me, its how he died. Even before the disastrous leaks and the release of the game people were speculating that he was going to die - and I believed it. For me at least, I saw it coming a mile away. But like you put it - its the WAY he died that is the problem. I understand why the the crew ended up at Abby's hideout. The infected were going to overrun them and they needed to work together - like the first game, things like that happen on a whim and you can not control it. However, both Joel and Tommy (as you put it) acted like complete idiots. Giving away who they were, where they lived. That is a downright stupid move that can not be justified because the first game -specifically- showed that Tommy (but especially Joel) are not those types of people and multiple examples (like you pointed out) are given. The 2nd game threw all that away just so the story could get moving. That is why this story is irredeemable IMO. When a sequel completely throws away some of the key attributes to the main characters just so the story can progress at the cost of said characters then that is not a good or worthy sequel. Abby - Also no surprise - Like I pointed out above (and once again like you said), the game attempts to portray Joel as the bad guy for doing what he did to Abby's father (we of course know why). However, the game only mentions that in passing and since Joel was killed early on its rendered pointless and like more of a - "oh well, he did that you did this" type situation. - Why did Abby expect Joel to know her? - After saving her life, she has absolutely no compunction about killing him, then to add insult to injury ND attempts to portray her as "good" and "only doing what had to be done" - no - If that was the case then Abby would have thought twice about killing Joel after he saved her, or at the very least try and establish a serious conflict of interest. By ignoring that fact the only way can I see Abby is some unthinking person bent on revenge and that just isn't a character I can like considering how it happened so quick (and cheap). All in all - your absolutely right. A disrespectful/unworthy sequel that threw away the most important characteristics the characters had in the last game so just so THIS game can progress, and that is an insult. You earned a subscriber and a like - big thumbs up for pointing out the massive failure of this game.
Abby was not only unlikeable due to what she did to Joel, she’s entirely uninteresting as a character in general. There’s nothing compelling or endearing about her, and all her portions feel like superficial plot contrivances instead of deep and meaningful character development. 17:47 Fat Geralt to the rescue.
"Abby was not only unlikeable [...] instead deep and meaningful character" - I disagree in that point. Abby was shown as an ice cold killer to begin with by killing Joel. tough one to swallow, I agree. But learning, how she has romantic feelings for Owen (just like Ellie has for Dina), what a lovely kid she used to be before her father was taken away unnecessarily by Joel (what Ellie was when we met her at the first game), how she was saved beeing hang-uP by two young scars, helping them to survive and by that questening what Isaac is leading the WLF to is not deep and meaningful to you? I admit I did not want to play that b#tch myself who killed Joel. But the more I progressed playing Abby, the more I learned that she is as a good human beeing as much as Ellie, trying to survive in that f#cked up world. Seeking for revenge is not a solution what Ellie recognices too late. That is why I think Abby spared Dina's and Ellie's life at the theater. Proving that she is anything else but cold killer. Othervise Ellie's journy would've end with her throat cut open as much as Yara and Lev would've been dead by only beeing Scars. I'm afraid to say that but I think the author of this video did not understand the message of the game in several ways. Just remember Ellie returning to the empty house full of nothing and only eight fingers.
@@TheLarry1993 very well said. none of these characters is better or worse than each other. While Abby can be hated due to her side of the revenge she can be paralleled against Ellie in all ways. When Abby stops trying to kill Dina it shows her trying to break the cycle of revenge showing that no matter what her father isn't going to come back but she can appreciate and grow from her time with him and his memories. At the end where Ellie is about to kill Abby, she has a flashback of her last memory with Joel. A happy one at that showing her beginning to try and forgive Joel for his decision at the Firefly hospital. This makes her stop attacking Abby showing her part in ending and breaking the cycle of revenge. Everyone will see it as the message being "revenge is bad" but I think the deeper meaning of it shows no matter what revenge is a fool's game. Forgiveness trumps all.
@@TheLarry1993 I get that everyone has their own opinions, but I don't feel any attachment to Abby. I believe if her character was introduced differently or something, maybe I'll understand. Also I think there should have been a flashback or something to give a reason to why she saves Lev and Yara.
@@TheLarry1993 Yeah, she had romantic feelings for someone with a wife/gf with a child on the way. Real noble of her. Even when her father was alive, she was so un-charismatic. Just pay attention to the way the speaks to him. I also hated Abby because of this SO much.. She constantly sound like she's fed up and dismissive with everyone, even her father. Whoever was "acting" her parts in the body suit or whatever did an awful job (or a really great job if the point was to hate her). Zero charisma.
This does what a sequel should never do put you off playing the first one. Because where the characters from the first end up in the second it just doesn't feel worth it to play.
You are 100% correct. I kind of wanted to boot up the Remaster to remind myself why I loved Joel and Ellie so much in the first place. But seeing Ellie so happy and knowing that in 4 - 5 years she'll be an empty shell that has lost literally everything is just too depressing. It actively ruins the original, just like you said.
@Kc Link True and that's actually sad because the first game was a really good game, but now after the second game, it sort of has taken some of that "magic" out of the first game since we know what happens to those characters
People that keep saying “this game is realistic” “Joel and tommy has softened” or “joel killed Abbys father.” Purposely love to forget that Joel was to left a family on the side of the road behind to save his own family so what sense does it make for him and tommy to immediately save Abby in the middle of a bunch of infected risking their own lives almost? She should’ve died right there and only there, Joel and tommy both survived multiple occasions separated or together for 20 damn years and are basically survival experts next to ellie who Joel taught how to swim, and not to be trusting with others and you can see that when she refused to give her name to David. If they had softened they wouldn’t forget automatically their survival instincts they’ve learned for 20 years and had rested 5 years still going on searches out for infected and resources you don’t just forget stuff like that! Last but not least fuck abbys dad, Abby is nothing but a oc off a badly written fanfiction and her dAd was willing to kill ellie without permission all for a cure that wouldn’t even work? All bullshit and those who defend this game do it because it’s on main media and are a bunch of sheep or out of pure spite.
Finally someone with some common sense, I thought the same way. Joel and tommy been in the sh*t way too long to be this damn stupid. F*ck This garbage ass game
@JamesHLanier You saying the cure would work is where you are wrong. There is no such thing as a vaccine against fungi. Vaccines are great against viruses but the disease we see in the game is a fungus and vaccines do not work against fungus. There is a video explaining why the vaccine would not work and how killing ellie would be the worst thing to do. th-cam.com/video/S5ulX06McSY/w-d-xo.html
@JamesHLanier yes in laboratory conditions. Dont forget this is set in a post apocalyptic world where the world is beyond saving. Scientists with all the technology we have are having a hard time to find a vaccine so how will the fireflies in that world make one with limited supplies and technology?
@JamesHLanier There was nothing implying that. Even in 2020, without a fungul outbreak and with current technology it is difficult to make one so how will the fireflies pull it off?
I am incredibly sad about how this game turned out. The utter disrespect to Joel honestly disgusts me. Now I'm afraid of what Naughty Dog will do next.
I just finished the game and after witnessing Joel’s death, i knew the game would be such disappointment. It was so hard to keep playing. The only reason i continued was because i was able to play as Ellie. Ellie seeking revenge was the only purpose i continued to play. After playing as Abby i knew this game was a trash from here on out!! Tommy would have been a better play through.” WORST SEQUEL EVER” I couldn’t agree more...
Joel death was almost certain. He made too many enemies on the first game. But revealing their names to strangers, that’s easily, in that kind of world they’re living in, just stupid.
Remember how Abby wanted revenge for someone killing her dad and leaving her fatherless by killing 2 dads and leaving Ellie and Dina’s kid fatherless without self reflection or remorse? She is the one who would gleefully slit a pregnant women’s throat. I member. Member how Dina choose to endanger her and her child for some dangerous revenge quest for this girl she just met. SIMP. Remember when Ellie got mad at Joel for punching a bigot sandwich? Member the whole point of the first game was Joel living for human connection; Ellie’s growth, and happiness- only so this game can end it in Ellie’s torment, mutilation, character regression, and abandonment? I MEMBER!
Abby's entire story arc, starting at the point she kills Joel, is one of regret, self reflection and remorse. She kills Joel expecting to feel a relief and satisfaction that never materialises. Trying to save Yara and Lev is her atonement and why they become the focus of the flashbacks at the hospital prompting her to go for back them and protect them throughout the rest of the game. Her threatening Dina, far from being gleeful, is the culmination of her story and the point where she can finally let go, pulling back from the precipice and, instead of repeating the cycle of violence, spare them both. Dina and Ellie's relationship is seeded throughout the game in little bit's of dialogue as two people who think they have an unrequited love for each other and are too afraid to approach the other without realising it's mutual. While the night before the game kicks off may be the first time they both act on those feelings they're anything but strangers. FYI - Dina says when she reveals she's pregnant that she only knew she was 'late' at the point they set off on the journey so the presumption is that her concern isn't realised until they are on there way to Seattle and finally confirmed later in the game, times and distances are always hard to judge in games but my assumption is that while once you get to Seattle the game takes place over three days the journey to Seattle is considerably longer. While Joel eventually allows Ellie in he spends the first three quarters of the game actively pushing her away, trying to palm her off on other people and reminding her that she'll never be his daughter (and the preceding 20 years being a hunter killing innocent people and people who deserved it indiscriminately something even Tommy couldn't agree with) so while he may have 'lived for human connection' it was on very narrow terms and and not for completely altruistic reasons, he also stripped her of her perceived purpose and lied about it for selfish, and entirely understandable, reasons. Finally Ellie, the last thing you can take away from the first game is that she ends it happy, she deals with PTSD following the events with David throughout the final quarter of the game (brief respite for some Giraffe petting aside) and it's revealed at the end of the game that she's struggling massively with survivors guilt compounded by Joel taking away her agency by 'saving' her at the hospital ("...I'm still waiting for my turn"), not to mention the one person she does trust openly lying to her as the very last act of the game.
dac185 I dislike TLOU2 for what was sacrificed for a contradictory and haphazard plot. I already know it’s about hatred, revenge, and forgiveness- but the story telling is so sloppy; especially when I look at as a overarching narrative (ie as a sequel) 7 years in the making. I do not mind That Joel dies if it means we get a good plot that they build off the franchise and naturally Joel should be killed anyway. But if they are going to deliver a lack luster story, sacrificing what most people liked about the franchise in such a poor endeavor is the farthest thing from bold and smart. Like Joel should die he defiantly need to pay for his sins but I always thought it was silly to have Abby involve her friends as accomplices and she should have killed Joel by herself without Ellie like by sniping or something. That way Joel doesn’t need to break character and walk into an ambush and give out his name if he is sniped. Like there is a lot of wierdness with how he died. I love Lee’s death in walking dead game so I known it can be done. Like why have Joel save Abby’s life if she doesn’t reflect on it? Why have Joel stumble into her instead of her actually find him? If she didn’t involve her friends I would of felt bad when Elie winds up killing them because they weren’t accomplices and would of made Ellie go out of her way to involve them for Abby information more questionable. Also I would of had Abby not have Ellie show up while Joel died. Psychologically speaking It’s hard for me to accept that Abby (who’s father was killed leaving her fatherless) would see Ellie begging her to stop and then choose to beat Ellie’s “dad” to death leaving her fatherless without any reflection. Like she being the very thing she wanted to destroy without question and it doesn’t need to be contradictory like that if Abby doesn’t encounter Ellie in the murder. Abby should of known from herself that Ellie would want revenge like she did for her loved one’s death so it’s just stunting. If Abby could find that Ellie thought of Joel like a father later in the story when Ellie corners her or vise versa, it could of given Abby something to chew on cause she really needed a more defined arc. Ellie should still kill her friends to make Elie learn about the brutality and trauma of vengeance (and because they did not help Abby in her murder but instead are just choosing to protect Abby out of love) it’s more for Elie to think on; and Abby could kill Ellie’s but both relies they will run out of friends at this rate unless they talk it out (Let them climb out form loosing themselves to vengeance except Tommy). Removing the part Where Abs happily tries to slit Dina’s throat to give people less of a reason to hate her. She says “good” and smiles doing the action only to be interrupted by her bow friend not her conscious or self awareness (glee). Could even have a part after Abby kills Jessie, she can pick up his journal and figure out he was going to be a dad to further drive that point home about her revenge making her who she hated. Even better if Abs kills Jessie on a military patrol so it gives her an excuse to quit the militant organization (cause it’s compromising her ethics). I would also want the story about forgiveness actually being concluded with diplomacy and words with both party. It seems off that it would conclude in a knife fight where the “forgiver” gets mutilated. Have Tommy loose himself to vengeance and get killed by Abby to contrast Elie seeing the error in her killing Abs friends and trying to make amends. Also I would have either cut out the farm and return to vengeance bit or end it with Ellie and Abby having to ally to save what’s left of their loved ones form an evil faction that kidnapped them. Maybe even include a scene where Abby and Ellie can return to the hospital and stumbles on security footage that Joel killed to rescue Ellie and maybe Ellie could explain to Abby about how he saw her as his dead daughter to tie into her learning to forgive Joel and maybe Ellie could of scavenged something form Aby’s dad that she lost as an apology or some characterizing scenes to substitute for Joel and Ellie dynamic. Both sides have a few friends left. Make it more about Ellie’s and Abby’s coming of age then a tragic tormenting character regression that leaves Ellie abandoned (no character dynamic to play off for last of us 3). Like this could of been really good story but it’s just so wierd not even counting the flash back within flashback stuff. I think it’s very important to leave relashonship dynamics for the third game and to of been more constructive to Ellie so that the first game about saving her didn’t anticlimax in her ruin and abandonment. Also relationships are a big part of what makes this franchise good. If Ellie gets to grow into her own person and has some new relationships to banter with by the end, then it leaves room for the third and feels more like a natural extension of the 1st because first one builds up Joel and him caring for Ellie, and the 2nd about Ellie building up her own charichter and forgiving/missing Joel. Instead of the first about Joel and how caring for Elie and the 2nd where it doesn’t matter because Elie gets abandoned and tormented anyway and regresses as a character. A little too sadistic to Ellie form a overarching narrative perspective considering how she is just a kid and was unconscious when Joel killed and how Abby insights it from her perspective. Oh and with more of a flash back focus on how Joel would want Elie to be happy and not loose herself to the darkness of the world like he did; some scenes like that peppered in (and not last minute) to more gradually shift the players mindset to forgiveness and remorse after Elie kills some of Abys friends. So much wasted potential and time. Or instead of Tommy dying have Tommy get Bill and Bill gets revenge obsessed. But Joel needed to be in the game more as the Ellie and his relationship drama should probably been the prologue instead of scattered flashbacks. I think if Joel was more involved with him trying to teach Ellie about not loosing herself we would miss him more because he would be doing more in this hypothetical game. Take some ques form grief games and have a Joel funeral. Maybe Ellie’s revenge Posey has Joel’s affiliates and they each can argue over different idea of who Joel was and what would he do as she kills Abys friends until eventually realizing Joel would want Ellie safe and never to be as cold blooded as he became and that (half way through the game) it becomes about making amends. Also what self reflection? Do we see Abby narrate her thought. Or talk about her killing too dads with regret to her accomplices? Does this game end with Both sides mutually agreeing forgiving each other with words; true forgiveness? Or does it more so devolve into a knife fight where one of the sides just gives up and the other never has to agree and boat off? “I forgive you” was never said. My problem isn’t that Abby doesn’t die, it’s that it stupid convenient that Elie remembers Joel’s forgiveness flashback with Abby instead of with Abby’s friends, or even immediate upon Joel’s death. I know it seems high that Ellie forgave but really it’s just her choosing to waste all the lives she previously killed for this purpose last second. Ellie didn’t even think it through it was just spur of the moment flashback. I need more evidence about a arc then conjecture and subjective facial expressions. Ellie ends it a little disheartened about Joel’s choice but otherwise optimistic. You make it seem she is traumatized where if you look at Elie and Joel’s museum flashback she is clearly not traumatized and enjoying herself. Just because she has everything she wanted doesn’t mean she also can’t be upset about Joel’s lye but she isn’t “anything but happy” She is sad about Joel’s choice and the game rightfully (but poorly) explores the consistencies of the choice, but otherwise she has never been better the last game she was constantly moving and changing hands with care takers who inevitably abandon her and she now has someone know she is immune so she doesn’t have to hide as much. which in the first game she directly tells Joel not to abandon her like the rest. Just becuase she is traumatized by the cables and discontent doesn’t mean it is a smart or constructive native mood to tourment her moor and leave her abandoned like she always fears form the first game. I’m also sick of people’s “hot take” on Joel’s choice. What is Elie 12 in the first game? 12 year olds are not mature enough to make a choice like sacrifice. Not that matters she wasn’t being delivered to be killed, she was being delivered to be experimented on. Fireflies don’t ask Ellie “hey do you mind if we just kill you as a first resort for this cure?” not that Elie would comprehend how suspicious that is. Last minute Joel learns Ellie is getting killed as the doctors first resort?! What “scientist” (who in our world have never been successful making anti fungal vaccines with pre-apocalyptic technology) decide to kill their test subject as first resort especially if she is the only specimen! That is just stupid and suspicion making their prospects of a vaccine dubious at best. It was a selfish choice on Joel’s part assuming fireflies are legit. But from what context was given to Joel this seems just as if not more likely to be a bunch of new age plague doctors playing pretend. Joel throughout the first game mistrusted people but it’s also shows that more then half the time his eye for scratchy circumstances is right on.
It’s not as simple as “Elie rationally and informed, agreed beforehand to self sacrifice in services for a (totally credible) institution who just wants to do good in the world and Joel steals humanity’s last chance for a cure for some toxic one sided father figure relationship.” Also the lye. What if your kid wanted to kill them self for a cult’s suspicious cause and their too optimistic or naïve or too young to rationalize it? Lying to prevent the kid running away back to the cult is a understandable move to stall for time. Not perfect one but the circumstances were not perfect. It’s called “Character development” from the first game. like a meaningful change form the start to the end to build on a coherent message: where before Joel was trying to distance himself from caring to not loose another daughter figure, he eventually gives in and changes to care more then something other then survival just like Ellie learns the reality of this world but also not to loose herself in it like Joel did. People don’t care for completely altruistic reasons, but they still care none the less; that’s what made the first game realistic. I get that Dina and Ellie were “seeded” afterwards. But love at first sight and cheating is still a unhelpful and sloppy trope. Dina being nothing but a yes women at the expense of her and Jessie’s kid is an enabling boring or toxic relationship. Jessie should have been informed and they could talked stuff out and agreed on something. I’m glad she leaves Ellie given what was written in the scripts but she probably should of left sooner or not have joined at all? Have her have goals other then Ellie or wanting to live with Ellie heck have her and Elie disagree on something’s but love eachother anyway. She seems to dependent for the entire game other then the last 5 min. Undercooked but a good premise. Time is hard to judge but I’m not going to fix the wrighters mistakes for them. Abby’s “atonement” should have been to reconcile and talk things out with Elie (the person she actually victimized) so they can actually forgive and it’s not just looking like Abby thinks she can forgive herself for wronging someone else by doing some good to unrelated people. Isn’t this supposed to be a story about forgiveness?
@@wastelesslearning1245 No, it's a story about the cycle of violence and love not forgiveness. Abby doesn't let Ellie go because she forgives her and Ellie definitely doesn't let Abby go because she forgives her. Both of them have lost everything they love because of the actions brought about by that cycle.
dac185 sure. Interesting on how you Don’t reply my points. I am aware of the themes including the cycle of violence but for the same reason that I disregarded the other “thematic connections”, the “cycle of violence” was explored poorly and was again contradictory and in my pinion stupid. But I’ll bite, let’s explore this “game” form that Lense. Again my problem is not the ideas but how poorly exicuted they were and what they sacrificed for said lackluster follow up. First off from a gameplay contradicts the cycle of violence. You and Abby mow down countless faceless goons in this story. How come Aby and Elie aren’t getting hunted by thousands of outraged loved ones. It’s so inconsistent. Every goon poetically has a loving tie to someone. That’s like a mob beating Luke from star wars to death with a pipe because they all had a janitor cousins on the Death Star who died when it blew up. It’s not profound. People get mad at people all the time for stupid reasons too as well as ligit grievenc. If the game was playing this to its logical conclusion: every other enemy you slay will ad another posey hunting both party and the absurdity of how contrived the cycle of violence conveniently stops for plots is unbelievable. The gameplay also gives you no choices to do non violent take downs. I normally would not have a problem with this except the game makes the player suffer and is judged by the narrative for a plot and actions entirely out of their control. If Elie or Abby don’t do what they did, they die and get a game over there is no choice and therefore no legit moral judgments. From a causal perspective they are all defending their lives. The setting: the last of us takes place in the apocalypse. In our real world “the cycle of violence” ended because of non-biased fair 3rd party criminal justice system intervening and preventing future crimes by locking up the “bad guys” or at lest that’s the idea. But in a world where the courts are corrupt, inept, or non existent there is only too options: bring the aggressor to justice yourself and prevent the same aggressor form wronging others in the process or let the aggressor go I hopes the aggressor doesn’t wrong others the same way. That’s the only options you get in the apocalypse except build a new court system. Most people in these settings are survivors who have to do what they can to survive and bring some sense of justice. Suddenly it’s not so noble to pacifist and end the cycle of violence if letting them go means more people get hurt. Again gameplay wise it’s self defense cause enemy’s shoot on sight or are scripted not to give you a choice. Narrative: “oh it’s so horrible Elie goes after Abby’s friends” no it’s not. Abys friends were accomplices in Joel’s murder so it makes sense and is just for Ellie to kill them. Arguing against that is like arguing that if a group of bandits sacked a town, the head bandit can tell the townsfolk “they took it too far” for killing her possey accomplices. Co-conspirators get time too. They really should of had Abby kill Joel by herself so I’ll feel bad. Also Let’s look at the in-sighting incident. Joel kills Abys dad to rescue Ellie. Abs swears to get revenge for the loss of her father. Abby brings a possey of accomplices. Joel saves her life. Why didn’t Aby end the cycle of violence? Elie begs her not to kill her dad. Surely Aby should reflect and see she is victimizing a unrelated party the same way joel indirectly victimized her. Why don’t she end the cycle of violence? Why didn’t she rather choose to forgive or “end the cycle” by killing Elie and Tommy? Oh wait it’s a. impossible standard in this world; that’s why. Killing Tommy will just get his wife after you. Killing Elie would get Dina after you. Killing anyone who takes Umbridge with Abby being a murderous aggressors with a mob to her back will just get rediculous. It’s so convenient for this 1 dimensional take on these themes. “Clearly Joel is the villain”; sure he’s no saint and has it coming from his past but he trying to saves Ellie and Abys dad gets in the way and therefore died. Abys dad was going to kill a little girl (from a science perspective for no reason and belongs to a pretty dubious organization). So the price of Joel saving his daughter is this random doctors daughter wanting go out of her way to kill him and leave Ellie’s and Dina’s kid fatherless just because. Could of been a good plot point of Abby thought about it or was distressed for becoming the thing she swore to destroy. It’s like a mom saving her baby form a bear; killing the bear in the process only so the cub can eat the mom alive out of vengeance. Give me a break. That’s not eye for eye. That’s just petty circumstance. If my dad was going to kill a kid and her dad killed my dad to rescue her I could at least see where he’s coming from (especially with how dubious the cure was anyway). Aby belongs to a militant faction while Ellie is village folk; surely Abby killed way more people. She worked for WLF. She betrays her WLF friends too. I would rather Abys dad be killed by Joel in the phase of Joel’s life when he was a selfish borderline deranged survivor. No moral excuse for Joel to show your past can catch up to you and him not getting a chance to save Abby to show he changed. From Ellie’s perspective Aby draged her into the cycle of violence. Aby come from out of nowhere to threaten and kill Elleis family members for saving her own life while unconscious and leaves. That’s not morally grey that’s actual injustice on Ellies side: And what’s the reward for ending the cycle? Missing figures and abandonment. Here is a basic thing when writing charichter consequences. Someone does bad in the end give them bad. Someone does good in the end, give them good. Someone does bad in the end, don’t give them good or more then other wrong party. Someone does good in the end, don’t leave them with less for it. They cycle of violence could of been ended in started in so many ways they were better instead of this contradictory stuff we got. Like if Ellie was given the choice to let her towns court/justice system to track Abby down on her behalf but she chooses to get revenge anyway. Or show the alternative to letting someone get away with crimes (that aggressor victimizing more people that could of been prevented)- that is the whole evolutionary point of that emotional drive. Learning to be diplomatic with the apposing viewpoint. Real forgiveness from talking it out and agreeing to stay way. But no Aby (the aggressor of the two) gets to keep a loved ones and boat off into the distance after being rescued. On Elie’s side the cycle of violence could of been ended so easily if Ellie remembered Joel talking about forgiveness flashback at his funeral not at the end of the game. Why don’t she remember Joel’s talk when she finds the first of Abby’s friends or shoots at the first human enemy in the game? It’s so convenient she remembers just in time for a non-cathartic ending where everyone is worse off and learned not how to resolve problems but how to give up; making all the deaths in this game pointless. You end the cycle of violence either killing everyone involved and not victimizing unrelated people, have a criminal justice system impartialy deal with it, or forgive on both sides with dialogue: not one sided (assuming the perpetrator doesn’t continue to victimize which could of been prevented). Of these options naughty-dog didn’t explore 30% arguably 2/3 fully. Just wastes so much potential and character growth for shock value. All to make beloved characters better off dead or for the first game never existing. There are ways to fix these narrative holes of avoid making them. If your going to sacrifice do it for more then shock cause.
And also they made abby's father look bad cause he was so persistent in killing ellie and getting the cure. Idk why they showed him that way. This made me not care about abby's revenge even more in my opinion. GREAT VIDEO AS ALWAYS THO
Somebody show this to Troy Baker, as he states, "The developers would never disrespect the characters after 7 years!" haha Edit: Never mind, just sent it to him.
The Joel/Tommy ambush makes even less sense when you take Tommy's own words into account. He's worried about leaving Jackson vulnerable and getting hit by hunters "again". So according to the game itself, there's a specific reason for them to be cautious about strangers... even more so than they already should be (this shit is fundamental, ffs).
I think the studio was in turmoil with 70% of the original staff leaving. Could it have been over creative differences i.e. When this story was pitched to them by Neil Druckmann?
@@andersondawn3631 I imagine that being a reason why this game took 7 years to release instead of 3-4 years. Overworked and burnt out employees who have to develop a game around a story they might not like. It all makes sense.
I agree it doesn’t make sense for Abby to leave Ellie alive after killing Joel. Ellie is literally screaming on the ground that she’s going to kill Abby. So Abby obviously knows she has a very strong bond with Joel not to mention she’s the reason Joel killed her dad. Logically she would think “if I kill Joel she (Ellie) is going to feel how I feel because Joel is basically her dad” meaning she is definitely going to come after me like I came looking for Joel. So it wouldn’t make any sense to let her go because Abby knows she’s going to have to fight her in a death match later. In a world as brutal as theirs Someone in Abby’s shoes would most likely end the cycle before it starts by killing both Joel and Ellie given the easy opportunity she had.
The sad thing is that Neil doesn't even bother about us "fans" who are actually genuinely disappointed with the game because he's just so completely blinded by his own pride and arrogance. He made a game based on what HE wanted it to be about and not take into account fans expectations especially coming from the first game. If they were to make a part 3 it would just be even worse than part 2 since Neil will probably push for Abby to be the playable character for the entire game and build on her character instead of Ellie/Joel/Tommy etc.
You review basically totally on points with everything that I feel about this game. Only one thing to add, I really think the pacing of this game is awful.
You said it perfectly. Abby gets saved by Joel but she gets blunded by the fact thet he killed her dad and we dont care about her story because we get blinded by Joels death. Abby doesnt forgive Joel, so why should we forgive Abby?
I don't think the game wants you to forgive Abby. I think it wants you to understand why she did what she did. Not even Ellie forgives Abby but she knows to kill her would dishonour Joel's memory.
@@GhastlCloud775 I could hear Joel saying what Abby said to him in the torture scene with a little twist. "You stupid buffed woman, you don't get to rush this".
@someonesleeping is the only one here with a brain. Killing abby dishonors Joel's memory because he spent so much time trying to protect her and keep her from making the same choices he made after Sarah died. That's why he took her to jackson and tried to give her as normal a life as possible. So that she would never become the person she he did, so that she would be better. That's what that last memory was, the first good memory of him she'd had in a long time, one that wasn't just of him dying.
@@thetransientone6254 amen! Everyone to me just sounds like a bunch of cry babies at this point. I enjoyed the game, even tho the ending was terribly sad. I think if they did make a third and did it well. Like follow the aftermath of Ellie and Abby and how it's changed them as ppl, maybe part 2 could "redeem" itself, since it's just such a "shitty game" according to the majority, who think everything should be sun shine and rainbows
To be honest it feels like they couldn't stretch ellie's story to a 3rd game because it'll get boring so in order to have one ,they decided to introduce a new character that might lead the franchise, they tried to give abby a good story ,but just got stuck , all the success they had off of the first game had them deceived to actually do anything possible even if it's horribly dumb to have a 3rd game , so after many tries they just gave up and gave us this story .by forcing us to like abby , The bad thing in all this is that it failed miserably.. eliminating any chance of a 3rd game .
So you think they won't make a part 3 of one of the best selling games on the ps4? It will have a part 3 and a ps5 remaster, doesn't matter how crap it was, it prints money.
@@max1311 yeah that's the point they tried to make things different and risk everything to it set up for a 3rd game but it failed .so if we do get a 3rd game no one will buy it
The third game was going to Abby and Lev, as a new Joel and Ellie. They tick all the alphabet things and Druckman says she's now like Joel with Ellie. It really does seem like he's surprised she disliked so much. She an ugly, over muscled shallow dislikeable character and having her looking after a trans kid doesn't change anything. What a mess.
The flashbacks also remind me why The Last of Us 1 was so charming. Ellie as a kid, somewhat still innocent with her playful personality, and the way she bounced off Joel's personality. The museum part was great. Ellie as an adult in TLOU2 didn't feel like Ellie at all to me.
Bruce Stanley has been with ND since 99 and has been the genius behind the unchartered series and TLOU. He left due to how hard they were pushed to complete unchartered 4. And now Druckmann steps up as main director for TLOU2 we see it was really Bruce Stanley who is the genius behind all these games
TLOU & TLOU: Left Behind: Masterpiece. TLOU 2: *MASTERSH*T.* Dear God, I cannot believe that I waited 7 years for this horrid sequel of a game. They completely forgot about Joel's character altogether. In The Last Of Us, Joel was cautious, calculative, suspicious around people he ran into, and seemed to have good judgement skills- instinctively knowing when something didn't feel right about a situation. Tommy was also the same as Joel was. In TLOU 2, Joel and Tommy essentially trust some random person that they just met 3 minutes ago, and Abby takes them to her cabin, filled with more random people. It's like they both walked into their deaths, and it's sad to watch such a strong character like Joel killed in this matter. Not only did Naughty Dog do this, but, they also false-advertised the hell out of this game. I seriously thought that in TLOU 2, Ellie was going to be the main protagonist this time around, and Joel would have taken his place as the supporting character. But then, as I played I was like "What in the literal f*ck is going on in this game?" The storyline is a choppy, poorly executed, and jumbled excuse for a sequel. At this rate, it would've been better if The Last Of Us never even had a sequel in the first place. The Last Of Us, and TLOU: Left Behind DLC were perfectly written, and it's a shame to see the series turn into trash because of Naughty Dog.
Last of us 2 is like watching a ship depart a dock, sail only a little ways out where it's easily visible from shore, then it hits a rock and starts to slowly sink in place over the course of a few hours
Personally I think that if Joel was to die at Abby's hands it should've been via a boss fight. A challenging one where all the tactics we used as Joel in the first game are used against us. Frankly Naughty Dog missed out on potentially making a great villain with Joel and when I say "villain" I mean that in the loosest, best and most sympathetic way possible. I've got my own ideas on what a great sequel to the first game would've looked like but I'd rather not bore the poor soul who stumbled across this comment to death. All I'll say is that the act of killing Joel as Abby should have as much emotional weight as the act of saving Ellie as Joel in the first game. By this I mean that whilst we may or may not agree with the action we can definitely understand why said characters are doing it and can sympathise with them.
@@joethealternativegamer3935 I'd probably go a bit further in saying that they should've marketed this game as being about a new set of characters. Abby and her crew and whatnot. From there they're on a mission of some sort that's gradually revealed as the story progresses. After bonding with these new characters heavily we then discover that they're after Ellie for the cure and that Abby has a personal vendetta against Joel for killing her father. Have Ellie and Joel's involvement be a reveal halfway through the game. I doubt anyone who's a fan would be upset with that sort of trickery.
We have to remember that Joel's decision to save Ellie had more factors backing it up, more than just his love for her, while it was still by far the biggest deciding factor. Remember that Joel never believed the Fireflies' mission to return the world it used to be? And throughout the first TLOU we can see what humanity has become. Absence of law and order, people robbing, killing, raping each other, lot of different military, terroristic groups pursuing their own interests. Do you really think that they could simply return to the old days after all of that savagery? Joel knows that there is no return, he has known ever since he lost Sarah. Remember, it wasn't the infection that killed her daughter, it was a normal human. Plus if u find and listen all those tapes that the Fireflies left behind, u will learn that they weren't even sure that cure would work. So there was no way that Joel would have let his beloved Ellie die, for that hopeless mission that he knows would never succeed, to develop the cure that might not even work at all. And in TLOU2 he is portrayed as selfish, stubborn, oldish dumb man, how are we supposed to believe that?
There's another plothole regarding Abby leaving behind loose ends. I can maybe buy into her decision to let Ellie and Tommy live, but remember how those two track down Abby's group - jackets saying „Washington Liberation Front” on them. Seriously? They know they are going after another group and presumably they don't want to be found afterwards, but they wear jackets that CORRECTLY IDENTIFY THE GROUP THEY BELONG TO? What the absolute fuck? Why not wear literally any other jackets? And if they hadn't literally worn their names on their sleeves, no one would have been able to come after them, since that was the one lead that Tommy and Ellie were able to follow. So not only are Joel and Tommy showing a distinct lack of survival skills, but so is Abby's group. And I'm supposed to be invested in the story and care for either side of these idiots? Not gonna happen.
@@joethealternativegamer3935 yeah totally GOOD POINT, they were all bribed by Sony or tricked by all the "false advertising"! Nobody likes the game, it's all just lies and propaganda
Thank you for pointing out how the 'forgiveness' ending was not earned, it should have been developed throughout the story, like if Ellie's friends asked for her to drop this revenge quest before coming to her realisation. Instead it feels forced ... also Ellie doesn't know who Lev is at any point or the journey they went through with Abbey so no comparisons to her and Joel's relationship would make sense ... to Ellie they shot an arrow through Dina and looks like a scar who were all hostile to her. Lastly, what about Tommy at the farm? He lost in 2 encounters with Abbey, his eye and potentially Maria. Now wants Ellie to traverse months across the country by herself to finish off Abbey when he can see she is happy ... doesn't look like Joel's brother to me! He knows how much Ellie meant to Joel - disrespecting Tommy's character again.
But her friends did ask her to drop it. Jesse and even Tommy told her to go back to Jackson, saying that killing Abby wasn't worth it. I thought Abby carrying Lev on the beach is supposed to be reminiscent of the opening of the first TLOU and the end. Showing how Ellie is now the aggressor. Tommy witnessed his niece die in front of him, his brother, lost an eye, mobility of his leg and his wife. To me, I'm not surprised Tommy is doing what he is doing. He's lost everything. If they do a part 3 I would really like to see a redemption arc for Tommy though.
@@tierk4328 I'm referring to adding more in depth cutscenes where her friends questions her rational, what has been lost due to her pursuit and what Joel would have wanted (thus making the player think) which would lead to a set up for a satisfying ending of forgiveness. I wanted Abbey to live and Ellie to drop her quest, but done so in a more effective story telling method.
@@miket2908 Dina said to Ellie when they came across the dead girl with the arrows 'if this was enough', Tommy even says when they all regroup in the theatre "they got what they deserved" asking Ellie "is it okay?", Telling her that they have already taken enough from them and killing Abby isn't worth it. In answering your question about why they didn't reference Joel I like that they didn't do that. It made the player and somewhat Ellie forgets why they are doing this and what type of person Joel was. The violence feels senseless. The revelation with Joel and Ellie at the end was great to me. It felt refreshing. Again I don't think the ending was about forgiving Abby it was about acknowledging that Abby lost people too and killing her would have dishonoured Joel. I don't think the game wants you to forgive Abby, I think it wants the player to understand why she did what she did.
I’m still conflicted about how I feel about the game, the open Seattle section was probably the best part for me literally explored for hours. You make really good point about how the story could have been so much more impactful, I got to let the story sink in and do a second play through :)
I’m with you. Sometimes you need to experience the story more than once and let it breathe before you can settle on an opinion. And then those opinions could change after more discussions with other people :)
The Last of Us : better story, medium gameplay and graphics, beloved characters, excellent music, '' medium'' ending. The Last Of Us Part II : shame story, excellent gameplay and graphics, hated characters,excellent music, better and emotional ending ( I mean the farm scene only) What we needed in The Last Of Us Part II : MORE JOEL AND ELLIE RELATIONSHIP AND SPEND MORE TIME TOGETHER! BECAUSE IT'S THEIR GOD DAMN GAME. A better story, different ways to end the game and different choices for you to make the story as you want to be and kill one of the three ''main'' characters. CHANGE MY MIND!
I really liked it the story actually. It reminded me alto of 'Neo-Westerns' like 'Hell or High Water', 'Logan', or 'No Country for Old Men'. None of the character deaths is spectacular or grand they are brutal and sometimes slow. It gives the sense that time is never on your side and is always running out. I thought the killing of Joel in the first act was pretty bold because he is never able to talk to Ellie or give her guidance. She only relies on her memories of him to help guide her. It felt honouring to Joel because as much shitty stuff Joel has done he has also done a lot of good and that is shown in Ellie especially in the final fight. I've pondered a multiple choice ending but I'm happy they went one way with the ending it gives a sense of doom and I think makes Ellie more real. She never fully gets over Joel and her actions are her own.
someonesleeping Lmao and Abby gets her vengeance and is rewarded in the end with her new found relationship with Lev. Ya sure dude. As my friend Joel once said: “Ya you keep telling yourself that bullshit.”
@@asadbashir3199 Abby lost all of her friends. Owen, Mel, Manny, etc. All of the are dead she never gets to get back at Ellie at that and by the end of the game she doesn't want to. Like Abby Lev also lost everything, he lost his sister and his home. Neither of them will ever be able to get justice for there loses.
The reasoning of them becoming soft being an excuse is even more lazy when you think about how old Joel was when this started. The man already had a daughter and was used to living that way his entire life up to that point (hardships of working / not having enough money). The dude then close to mid-life has this virus breakout and kill his daughter, and he spends the rest of his years up until meeting Ellie (and after) doing heinous and evil things. You're going to tell me the few years of him living in "sort of safety" is going to make him soft? They still go out and scavenge as he has stuff to trade with traders, you still need to earn items / food somehow. I'm sure his entire life wasn't living in some gated community without any worries in the world. Especially once he lives those areas.
They took 2 beloved character and basically committed character assassination . To get STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER ababby that at best the vast majority of players will dislike. Clap , Clap, Clap ! 10/10 or i loose my job .
Such a well done video, man. You summarized basically everything I was angry about. The laziness in the writing, the disrespect and deconstruction of beloved characters, the awful treatment of Joel, how they shamelessly villainize Joel and Ellie(when every sane person knows that Joel did what he did, only out of love), the amateur structuring of the chapters, the manipulative, desperate attempt to make the player care about Abby to the point where it's just laughable, the way they force Abby into certain circumstances to make her look like a hero when it suits the story, as if she's on autopilot, the deliberate attempt to ruin everything we love about the first game in some inexplicable plan to be divisive. The list goes on. There's no really deep, profound message here. No internal conflict. Nothing thought provoking that we're left with. Just a miserable, cut and dry ending that destroys the characters we love...Now a sequel that's focused on anger, hatred and forgiveness between Joel and Ellie would have been far more compelling and believable. Not this misguided mess that only THINKS it's so brilliantly, artistically profound.. Though I'd still prefer no sequel if I had to choose. I'm so disappointed...A 7 year wait for nothing but pure contrived misery. It's such a shame. SO much time and effort was put into this game. You see it in the visuals, detail, animations, acting performances, soundtrack, etc, but all of that gets so weighed down and practically forgotten due to how poorly directed the story is. They should have just left it alone, man. All this game does is ruin the emotionally heavy impact the first game had left us with. It's truly heartbreaking. Bruce Streeley was definitely a vital piece of NaughtyDog and that team is just not the same as it used to be, especially now with Neil Druckmann fully at the helm to do as he pleases. That has never been more clearer than it is now. Darker days are ahead. Honestly, man. Thank you for this video. Top fucking notch.
I agree with your video, and thank you for sharing. This has me question how would the story be if Bruce and the former employees did not leave, as I do not enjoy what Neil and Halley Gross has shared. As men patrolling the area to protect the small community in Jackson, no sane individual will immediately trust a stranger and offer a place in your gated home knowing of the thieves, hunters, cannibals or potential infected people are a threat. Joel would have scolded Tommy for mentioning his name and would not ever enter a closed room with strangers that are armed. I am disappointed, but not surprised I have seen users insulting players who disapprove of these changes to the character's actions when this sequel contradicts how the protagonists behaved in the first game. There is also the factor of how foolish the characters act in response to Abby and how each attempt against her life failed many times unrealistically. (e.g. when Ellie finds Joel being attacked, she does not shoot but tries to rush Abby from behind nor look around the corner and the same applies to Tommy when he attacks Abby later in the story.) The sequel consists of conveniences, poor character development, plot changes all in favor to pandering in my opinion. Neil did say "The Last of Us 2 will normalize what is normal," not much discussion on Joel, Ellie, Tommy, Ellie's immunity in further detail or what became of the Fireflies who chased Joel running with Ellie.
I think a good comparison is how well done the story is in the first with how poorly executed it is in the second. The team behind the first had that secret sauce
Hey man I just wanted to say that this is the most professional review I’ve seen for this game so far. Everyone else just kept saying they didn’t like it because of Joel dying and they hate Abby but you actually went into it deeper as to why those things were bad. Everyone kept telling me I just didn’t like the game because the story didn’t play out how I wanted it to and that no one has the same views I have on it. But I showed them this video and they finally shut up. Thank you for a really good review ❤️
Joel isn't even acting like the pandemic just happened. When they were trying to get out of town at the beginning of TLOU, Joel wouldn't even consider stopping to pick up his neighbours & their kid. Joel & Tommy act like comedy relief who can't grasp the world he lives in & acts like he's a suburban house Dad keen to meet the new neighbours. Abby didn't just kill Joel. He saves her life, then she tortures him to death, employing medical intervention to prolong it as long as possible. She's established as a sadistic psychopath who wallows in causing pain to the point that when they're caught by Ellie & Owen sensibly wants to get out before they're overwhelmed, she gets angry because she hasn't had enough torture yet. You can't redeem that. Druckmann's fantasy that he's so good, he can fix that, is farcical. No-one can fix that. You might be able to manipulate intellectual & emotional toddlers into falling for the dog playing & child protection mechanic, but no rational, stable human is going to think that's acceptable. Druckmann's desire to throw Joel & Ellie aside to replace them with Abs & Lev was apparent from the leaks & he's now come out and said it. His spitting on Joel & physically, mentally and emotionally mutilating Ellie are all in service of getting you to embrace his new characters as your only option, but his arrogance in thinking having Abby be the sadistic tool he uses to do it with such imbecilic, malicious glee can be overcome by trite contrivance and poor writing.
100% agree with everything you said! I gave this game a chance, but it was a horrible story. The devs wanted to check so many boxes and put in so many ideas that it just completely flopped. The pregnancies, love triangles, making fun of Joel's age (several times) and a juiced up she-hulk. WTF were they thinking! It's like I was watching a show on the CW not TLOU part 2!
Finally! I knew I wasn't alone on the idea that the best way forward with LOU sequel would have been to explore new characters in this universe rather than try to continue the Ellie/Joel arc, which ended perfectly. Sorry about the run-on sentence.
How about cut out Abby's character all together. Their you go, most of the games problems in terms of the story are solved. We were told that this was suppose to be about Ellie and her journey. She didn't need to split main character duties with someone else.
Yeah, and if you cut out Abby's ten hours long segment, the narrative of the story, the message, they are sooo desperately trying to tell, would still work and nothing would be lost. The only thing I would keep is the Abby's memory of her dad, but I would put it somewhere else in the story. Really the first part is alright. There is tension, a rising momentum and all of a sudden it comes to a screeching halt. Just so Neil can establish his new protege Abby. To be honest they could have done a DLC Abby, or how about a New game+ option but this time we experience Abby's side of the story. So many options. So many missed opportunities. The true tragedy of all this is that Neil is so self absorbed in his own inflated ego, that he wouldn't even listen to sound advice and critique and will continue making contrived shovel-wear as long as he is working at ND as VP, writer and director. Thus another great developer has fallen.
The examples that you gave to Joel's being cautious is not particularly good, only the first one where Joel says to Tommy to leave the strangers on the side of the road First off Henry and Sam were both hostile towards Joel and Ellie and after that Henry realized that Joel isn't a hunter they had trusty conversations. Joel became suspicious of Henry after he literally left him to die to save himself and his little brother. Secondly he knew the hunter's tactics because he was in their group before, so it's not surprising that he saw right through their trick. The Tommy example wasn't really sound either since when Joel and Ellie arrived to their base there were bandit attacks going on, confirmed by Tommy in a dialogue and later the bandits actually attacked again. My point is that they never were in a situation where they helped somebody and they got attacked by them. And also the name thing. Why is that a huge problem that Joel and Tommy told their names? There is no internet to track their past deeds, the only person who knew Joel's name was Marlene as far as Joel knew and she didn't go around introducing him to her group.
17:20 Not true. The first game was co-written by Bruce Straley. Straley kept Druckmann in check every time he had a stupid idea. This revenge plot was Druckmann's original idea for the first game, but Bruce convinced him it was stupid. Then Straley left, and Druckmann brought his stupid idea to life..
That's a myth made up by Niel Druckmann haters. Bruce was the main director along with Niel. He had nothing to do with writing the first game's story. Maybe you can argue that actors did help in the writing but seemingly they liked The Last of us part ll script.
Joel “You survived because of me!” Tommy “It wasn’t worth it” To me what this says about Tommy is that he’s quite different from Joel- “survival at any cost” isn’t exactly his motto. Decency is still a high priority for him. Both characters are consistent with who they were in the first game. Joe, you even point out the car ride in the Prologue of the first game but you don’t mention how *Tommy wanted to stop and help the family on the side of the road.* I guess it wasn’t a convenient detail for your argument, because it directly proves it wrong. It is Tommy’s nature to be accommodating. And 4 years of peace time in addition to Abby “saving his hide there” will bring out that warmness.
How can a game be made with such poor and inconsistent writing, the scenario seems out of a very cheap soap opera. Miles away from the original game. Nice accurate & thorough review man, completely sums up my opinion of the game
Finally someone says it as it is. Joel didn't necessarily deserve a happy ending. We're not mad Joel died. We're mad because the events leading to his death were forced and contrived. And also because he and Tommy act out of character.
I feel like this game should've been a players choice based game. that way each player can have a unique experience. the devs and writers could've made the joel moment a choice while playing abby. Either abby forgive or abby still kill. Devs could've gave joel and abby some time together to cause conflicts within abby.
Watching this again years later and I’m still in awe of the direction the writers chose to go. This has to be one of the biggest letdowns in story telling history smh
I came from your Joel video, and I'm glad I did. TH-cam recommendations really got it right that time. There was a comment I saw on pewdiepies most recent TLOU 2 video where the Joel's death scene is this instead: so instead of joel and tommy being smooth brains, they both immediately pick up on the vibe and tommy claims that he is joel so he sacrifices himself for joel. Imo it seems unrealistic with what we are given in TLOU 2, but if the added more, and somehow the game alludes tommy to abby's intentions, this could be very powerful. Then they could kill Joel in the middle of the story, and have tommy be the shock kill. Anyways amazing video, I subbed! I was here before 10k :)
I completely agree with you in every regard. It really hurts me to see that this is the sequel for- if not the best game- one of the best game of all time. It is a shame that this game turned the way it did, since I- like most of you- waited for this game to come out and was very excited, and liked a lot the first game- but was very fucking disappointed by how poorly the story was told. Joel's death should've had been executed differently, and he shouldn't have been treated or written like he was new to the world he lives or he hadn't experienced with ambushes and stuff like that. I do also think that the Abby's sections were really long and boring af, the game shouldn't have forced us to play for, literally, half the game as Abby just to understand her motivations, but that's just me, and to be honest, we don't feel pity for her, as she is a monster, she doesn't habe any regret for her actions, unlike Ellie does. Though I think the game doesn't deserve 4/10 just because of the story, the game itself it's good, the gameplay and stuff, I mean. It's the story that ruins the experience. I really hope I don't offend nobody with this comment or my opinion. Take care and stay safe.
If you look at this game on it's own its fine, but because it's a sequel to an incredible game its very disappointing. The story was very bad, but might i add this game does still have some incredible graphics and a very neat soundtrack paired with it, so there are still positives, still doesn't make this a good sequel though... (is that a better way of saying it, a bad sequel, not a bad game?) Also great vid man, keep up the hard work cause this is pretty good content...
THANK YOU FOR BEING THE FIRST PERSON TO MENTION HOW THEY MADE JOEL SEEM EVIL IN THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME. They literally had him looking like a psycho when he got in the operating room.
How did Tommy or Joel just forget they're wanted by half the state and can't smell suspicion or hear/see abby pulling out a fucking shotgun in a dead silent room.
I agree with how he shouldn’t have walked into the ambush, but I think that it kind of works. After being with Ellie and raising her as if she were his daughter, he grew to be a man who’s nicer. This is also shown by the start of part two when he tries really hard to be her friend. You do make a really good point though
17:31 Based on the story of TLOU2 and the fact that he was unable to sell the story in college, I would argue that he doesn't really have talent. Unless that talent consists of self-promotion to get the job of creative director. I suspect that the big reason that TLOU1 was considered great is precisely what is missing in TLOU2, Bruce Straley.
your channel is criminally underrated, ur reviews are better than a lot of reviewers with millions of subs, i hope u get the recognition that you deserve man! keep this consistency and quality up and you will get there! me and many others will be here to support you through your career! good luck brother! ur awesome
An idea for Part 3 would have Ellie waking up from a nightmare after the ending of Part Two ( With the events that took place). Then the real last of us story starts and she wakes up in a panic with Joel shaking her asking her if she's alright cause she has a bad infection with the chemical burn on her arm, and her first words being "I almost shit myself" and hugs him.
First time watching, loved the video. I think there was something u missed too. I personally found it unbelievable that tommy, a year after being spared and nearly killed by abby a second time, would send elle after her. Tommy views elle as a daughter figure because of how much joel loved her. The day after Joel was killed, an emotional Tommy still found it a priority to protect elle from herself and others. And we are just supposed to believe after a year he would just ask elle to leave her family to hunt abby..ON HER OWN???
I find it odd how Isaac (who isn't a Firefly and who is shown to be a very strict and ruthless leader) would allow Abby, some of his best soldiers and best doctor, Mel, to go on a 2000 mile round trip, through infested lands brimming with danger, based only on the information that Tommy was in Jackson. What may have made more sense is if Abby convinced him to let her go because she told him that she'd found someone who was immune to the virus. I still think that someone like Isaac, given what we saw, will probably have laughed this off and insisted that he had more pressing matters at hand. It's also surprising that Abby wouldn't have noticed Mel's pregnancy during such a long trip. But what's most ridiculous of all, is that Abby decided to go it alone once the team reached Jackson. Why? Because she fell into a childish strop because her former boyfriend had got Mel pregnant. Then there are the plot conveniences: a snow storm, an infected herd, and Abby's going it alone all led to her bumping into the person who she was looking for, precisely as she was about to be killed?? And then Ellie arriving (without canvassing the building for threats - given her experience surely she'd have tried to sneak into the room or created a distraction to pull Abby's team out of the room and thin them out) at the moment the killing blow is struck. Abby and Ellie were caked in plot armour, and Joel was full to brim with plot poison, robbing him of his instincts and 20+ years of experience living in a post apocalyptic World. Not to mention the caution that he would most certainly have to live with to his dying day after what transpired at St Mary's hospital. People can love the story, that is fine, but please don't tell me that the story is intelligent, tight and consistent. Going from TLOU to TLOU II, from a story perspective, is like going from Casablanca to a CW tv show.
Less than 2000 miles. You're exaggerating. Also, Isaac knew about what Joel did. And you said that Abby was one of his best. Think of it as Abby's loyalty mission. What do you mean during such a long trip? They traveled by truck. There and back takes a few days, a few weeks tops. Pregnancy isn't really noticeable until a few months in. And no, Abby went on her own because she was worried Owen would talk the rest of the group out of it. All scripted events can be dismissed as plot conveniences? Ellie and Joel need to get derailed in winter, so Joel just happens to fall on a piece of upturned rebar? Joel, the man who can get really attached to a young girl, just happens to be the one escorting a young girl who needs to get killed for a vaccine to be created? Got any problem with those plot conveniences? Ellie did try to sneak into the room. She saw Joel getting beat, and rushed in. Can't really blame her for that. The story is intelligent, tight, and consistent.
I think one of the ironies of criticism of this game is that critics are often trying to be fair about Abby and find ways to make her work, which causes them to miss the bigger point--Abby is almost irrelevant. Her entire story with Lev and Yara has nothing to do with the plot. Her friendships with Owen and Mel and Mani and all of them has nothing to do with the plot. The WLF's fighting with the Seraphites has nothing to do with the plot. What if the WLF was a group of tennis fanatics, Abby spent her weekends fisting Mel and Owen side-by-side, and Lev and Yara were two eunuchs who served drinks in the compound? Absolutely nothing PLOT relevant would change. Her only job is to hate Joel enough to hunt him down, sending Ellie on the warpath, and yet have an understandable motivation and not be a miserable piece of shit person, just another morally grey person trying to get by, who has friends and family like everyone else. They not only failed to even do that right, but then they crammed in hours and hours of pointless crap. There is no way to make Abby work with just some structural changes to the game--Abby's entire section needs to be removed. I mean, honestly, that alone would improve the game even as it stands--keep in the dream/memory of finding her dad dead, because that's her motivation, but cut the rest. Oh, we wouldn't know who this kid is who put an arrow in Dina? Uh, so what? Why do I need to know? I'd just assume he's another friend of Abby's, just like the others I've killed. Why did Abby leave the WLF and head for the coast? Don't know, don't care, I'm just here to shank a bitch. If we're supposed to get Ellie's single-minded obsession and descent, then let us stick with Ellie in her descent and see the world through her single perspective. You might think it's better to have developed characters, and this would rob Abby of that, but she's not very well developed anyway, bouncing back and forth in her behavior, nor does she ever reflect on the themes. It'd still suck for many reasons, but it'd be shorter and not as chock-full of transparently manipulative tricks, and the pacing would be vastly improved over any other potential arrangement which maintains the completely unnecessary Abby sections.
I know it's been well over a year since this train wreck released, but bite me. I'm still acting like only the first game ever existed and ended there.
Very good explanation why the "Joel got softer..." excuse is not believable, at all. It's clear why the writing, thus the story turned out to be so bad, when so many working on the game left ND and most importantly Amy Hennig. Imagine how good the story would have been with her writing it. They deserve to fail financially so that this kind of disrespect to fans and players will not become the new normal from now on. Even if they boast the strong starting sales of 4mil copies (disregarding the returned ones or those that are still blocked from returning by Sony), I expect on the long run to sell under 10mil copies in total, and that would be a failure compared to the 17mil copies sold by the 1st game.
the ending has no real message because Gross and Druckmann decided it was too hard to write dialogs, so why not make her cry and leave it to the players ? This is a very cowardy choice. They could have saved the narrative at least with Ellie talking to Abbie, making sense of everything. Ellie is still in her own world, like a psycho who could go back to revenge at any time.
Abby brought a whole team of her militant friends. Joel and Tommy could have been taken down in a well-planned tactical ambush. Instead, Abby succeeds on pure dumb luck and plot armor. Her friends didn't even need to be there and only exist to get killed later on.
You are right on target with your rational surmised my friend, I couldn't have said it better. Because of the overt public opinions of Druckman which are a personal attack of everything I value & believe in I had no choice but to boycott a sequel to a good game I very much enjoyed & bought twice for two console generations, after the early leaks & now detailed reviews I know I did the right thing & have zero regrets.
You deserve more views and subscribers. Your content are so well-written and very well-delivered. It doesnt dwell on anything irrelevant and trivial that will throw off the point of the video that a lot of content creators blow out of proportion just to make a filler material for their video. Well done man and again, you may not be a game writer but you made a lot of great points in the previous video. I would pay the deluxe edition of the version of TLOU2 based on your story structure and plot.
If the story had Abby meet ELLIE instead of Joel in the beginning in that snow encounter, this could have gone a much more interesting way while still keeping the theme of questioning whether pursuing revenge is worth it. Make Abby and Ellie allies, then meets Dina or other Jackson residents, then finally Joel, and BOOM, the reveal Joel is the guy who killed her dad creates the conflict in Abby's mind.
main problems i have with this game: - forced narrative the 'magician behind the curtain' tale of events - the writers forcing joel to just forget his survival insticts just doesnt do him or the story justice - i feel people understand joel will meet his death and should but the way it is executed is so important... the way his daughter was 'taken by humanity... so he takes humanitys daughter' (ellie aka the cure) is so beautiful and powerful in the first game and his death just slices that feeling in half with no remorse (its so forced and is just a trigger for a plot). - lacking chemistry between characters who at alive at present in the game (tommy and ellie maybe the one exception). - you're never going to sympathise with abby with how they protrayed her, with no bias she was generally a boring character. i could go on but the devs clearly forgot the key elements to what made the first game probably the best game i've experienced and its depressing to know what this game COULD'VE been. (edit: im all for risks in games too but if they forget the key to what makes their games masterpieces, they'll plummet)
I know you didn’t mention this but even though Jesse is shallow character I still felt he had more chemistry and connection with Ellie than Dina did - I also hated how they basically used him to father Dina/Ellie’s child then killed him off. Then took the baby from Ellie cause she wasn’t the one to give birth. Maybe if they had let her be pregnant at the time Joel died she would have had to stop & think for a whole til after the birth about whether she should get revenge.
First, I wanted to say thank you for all the wonderful support I have been receiving. I didn’t except that last video would go viral. This video featured some of the same talking points with more elaboration (and hopefully better support). The combat encounters were mostly enjoyable here but with this being a sequel to a story focused game, the bad writing drags everything down.
Thank you for watching! And if you want a more positive video, then I invite you to look at my hour long retrospective for the first game! I cover all aspects from development, to story and gameplay. I absolutely love that game, ended perfectly. I’m so glad they never made another one 😉
Link: th-cam.com/video/516fHsZoY2g/w-d-xo.html
Your review comes from the sense of entitlement. Go watch Cosmonaut Variety Hour review for matured view of the game.
th-cam.com/video/Jiq0nR8ndD0/w-d-xo.html
Oh that guy! He likes to make a lot of assertions but never provides any examples. It is all statements with little to know substantiation. A good example of this is with his Star Wars Prequel Video or his Spider-man trilogy video.
I’d love to see some examples of my “entitlement”
Joe, The Alternative Gamer- Manipulation, deceit and disrespectfulness? NO! I disagree completely! Naughty Dog had forewarned everyone that tlou 2 would be dark, gritty and take gamers out of their comfort zones. Imo this is the mark of brilliant storywriting, combine that with top notch gameplay and you have a masterpiece. Now everyone wants to complain and boycott naughty dog for what they've worked hard to create.
Idk about you, but I have been waiting for tlou 2 for a ling time. It is many of these haters that are being very disrespectful and petty. They call all the gaming journalists shills and frauds, they call me nasty, profane names if I say that I like tlou 2. The stupid dumb ass jokes 'tlou 2 is a great golf simulator', '10/10 because it has lgbtq'. BS like that! These haters should be getting the heat, NOT naughty dog!
@Daniel Moung What specifically did you disagree with? Joe made a lot of good points, especially about the pacing and characterization, you sound more like your hurt that people have been toxic towards you and Naughty Dog.
@Z Ξ R Ξ N Λ D L I Cosmonaut is hilarious but he misunderstands several times why people dislike the game, he only addresses that people hate that Joel dies, never does he address that people are mad how he dies. He also doesn’t think the game is a masterpiece, he sees heavy flaws with the pacing and gives it 6.5/10.
IMO Joel probably died thinking he failed AGAIN to protect his daughter, knowing that he saw Ellie pinned to the ground by a bunch of people who would most likely kill her....
Good point! That’s depressing as hell!
@@joethealternativegamer3935 pin this please
Dear god, this hurts so much
If you read Joel's lips in his last moment, he said "help me..". That's how much he suffered.
Why...why god!!!!
Joel didn't die. Joel is only dead if you accept the second game to be canon.
yupp. might as well rewrite it and crowdsource a remake
@@calvingnarloafI'd Donate to that. Lol
It is not!
You know how I knew Joel was still cautious? He made Ellie wear her gas mask when there was nobody around. He told her "What if we run into somebody?"
Ah! Another great example!
Always thinking a step ahead. rip joel, you didn't deserve such an end.
Irrelevant to the early game circumstances that led to his death.
Not only that if you pay attention to the first game and when Joel and Ellie meet Sam and Henry,Ellie gives out her and Joel‘s names. And by Joel’s body language he seems to be uncomfortable. It’s understandable that Ellie wouldn’t know any better. But Tommy has the exact same experience as Joel and the fact that he gives out their names moments after meeting Abby is just ridiculous. And being part of a settlement doesn’t “soften” you. If anything it would make you even more cautious to outsiders and the possibility that they could be a danger to that settlement.
@@GrownManPat stfu
TLoU: "It cant be for nothing"
TLoU2: THIS WAS ALL FOR NOTHING
Lol true
LIFE HARD
PEOPLE BAD
YOU FAIL
Give me my VGA, Geoff.
The Last Of Us Part II is a waste of money and a waste of time. Because what do you gain by the end of it? Nothing.
The Last of Us was all for nothing though. It’s what made the ending great. Part 1 they go on a journey for a cure. In the end they don’t get it. Part 2 Ellie goes on a quest for revenge, and that didn’t happen either
SuperSaiyan3985 no the relationship was destroyed when he lied to her at the end of 1.
Another terrible part of Joel’s death scene is that he literally just falls into Abby’s lap. They just happen to conveniently run into each other in the middle of a blizzard. You’re telling me after 7 years the best Naughty Dog could come with is Joel and Abby running into each other accidentally? Why couldn’t Abby actually track Joel down? Why not have her interrogate someone else who was out on patrol or overhear a conversation that mentions Joel to pinpoint his whereabouts? But nope, Naughty Dog just has Joel and Abby meet by pure coincidence, what utterly lazy writing.
Good point. I don’t think it’s lazy though because they spent a lot of time and effort on it. I think it’s a lack of creativity and actually overthinking it. Sometimes when you overthink something you get lost and lose the plot especially when everyone is kissing your ass and makes you think whatever you come up with is good.
THIS!!. This get's me every time. So Abby get's woken up in the middle of the night. Get's shown where Joel could "possibly" be. Runs to the nearest watch tower, has no idea where the hell she is going. So happens to run into Joel and Tommy?. That is just BS writing right there.
It’s not lazy. It’s not a case of just “meeting by coincidence”. Abby went looking for Joel near Jackson and got chased by clickers into Joel’s patrol path. Joel saves her and they get chased back to her hideout where she kills him. It’s like that to show you despite Joel saving. Abbys life she still went ahead and killed him.
Same coincidences are happening in all games and movies. Do you think that all the other events that are happening to you are something else? There are always only as many enemies you can handle, you can always escape from almost impossible situation, there is always a way forward and so on. If you wanted to make games real, it would be pretty boring.
I mean, she kind of did track him down. For four years. She got 95% of the way there. They were within walking distance of one another and bumped into each other. It's still contrived, but not nearly as big of a contrivance as you're making it out to be.
I can understand why Joel had to die to kickstart Ellie's spiral into darkness. (The Death of no other character could have inacted that much emotion from her and the player)
But it should have been done without making Joel seem dumb and incompetent.
Bingo!
And maybe they shouldn't have edited Joels Character Model into trailers to assume he would accompany us on a journey of mentioned revenge to lure us to buy the game. Never felt so scammed tbh.
It didn't show he was dumb. He lived in Jackson for 4 years the only trouble in 4 years they encounter was infected you can find that out by ready the notes around Jackson. He been helping people for 4 years letting people into Jackson. He had no reason not to trust abby because they were just normal people so he thought. He save abby life so he had no reason not to trust her people do get caught of guard. Joel was a different person as well you can see this by looking in his home.
David Lowery
So 4 years in a nice little town makes you forget about the savagery of the outside world, as well as the way you’ve been (a savage) for 20+ years? Gtfoh...
Kamyar
Brah, it’s so fuckin stupid, and people actually think it’s fine. People are stupid as hell, man...
*I´m Tom and this is my Brother Josef*
*I´m Abby*
*Nice 2 meet you*
*Credits roll*
Lol!
In my head I just edited Joel saying like "My name is Jeff" and then roll credits :')
ma nem jeff
My immediate fake names were Chester (Tommy) & Jacob (Joel).
I hate how people use the excuse Joel became softer because of ellie or because he got older or some shit . Just because you become more of a softer person doesn't mean you abandon your experience all together when and become more naive he is not a kid he is a grown ass man.
Especially not if infected are still around and people still walk around armed.
Completely agree, it was so heartwarming to see him be the soft, loving father figure while still being a badass, he repeatedly stabs a Bloater to death for grabbing Ellie!
Also hate how she treats and speaks to him, comes across as ungrateful brat to the man who risked his life dozens of times to save her and give her a "normal" life in Jackson while teaching her to play guitar, how to swim ect. The museum chapter is the best thing out of all of it, that's the game the fans wanted.
Lmao go over to a channel like Tajae and try to make this great argument in the comment section..you will see some of the most ignorant people you will ever contact. They are the “seee context matters” crowd. Even with context it’s still a shit sandwich...
You know what's funny? Neil Druckmann himself used that excuse. I guess that explains the rest of the writing.
that argument is immeditely defeated by the opening of the first game when he had zero knowledge of any infection. Just a run in with his neighbor and he was willing to kill to protect his daughter there and that was his damn neighbor. A man he knew for who knows how long the instant he showed a threat he killed him. Then not stopping for the family on the road before they witnesses the mass evacuation and the imminent carnage that follows. So before the apocalypse when everything would have been MOST NORMAL and family like for joel, just that very evening when he comes home on the phone begging for a new contract to go through and he is immediately in fight mode despite all his life before that living as a normal father and going to work everyday like the rest of us. Joel has lived that normal cushy life and he still bounced out of it no problem for survival sake. So the argument living a bit nicer in jackson for 5 years holds zero weight because even that life, with him and tommy still being scouts and dealing with danger is still more dangerous than living before the apocalypse and even then he was ready to go on the spot.
It was 4 years where Joel was taught to take people in and trust strangers and help them not to distrust or anything like that same goes for timing it is not the same Joel like this creator is a dumbass it even states in Ellie’s journal that they trusted people that they saw by camp and traded with them and trusted them
The story feels hypocritical and preachy.
Damn. Could not have said it better. THANK YOU.
Wow the complete cap in that statement is unreal. At least provide facts before making false statements.
This game made my depression worse
And manipulative
@@rizkyrizky1357 CAP
You: "I'm just like, 'That's nice but you killed Joel.'
Me: "I'm just like, 'That's nice but not only did you kill Joel but you had her and her crew kick him, torture him, and then spit on him. Right after he saved her life.'
It's extremely hard to buy in after that.
Exactly!!!
Thats the whole reason why its so good, you have to try to love this story selflessly and for what it is, because you cannot love this game selfishly in ways that you wish for the better of the characters, it demands so much more of yourself and your feelings and its one of a kind for that. Loving this selfishly will just drive you to hate what you love.
spicy toast stop g,you can make this game sound deep all you want but i hope you know that in reality it really that deep bud
I've been seeing people pointing out the Joel & Ellie flashback scenes are some of the highlights of part 2 but I didn't feel a thing when experiencing those myself.
Why? Well Joel died like a bitch. They made it so. And not to mention fucking 6 hours ago?? And you expect me to care now?? Horrendous pacing and storyline order.
@@spicytoast6890 spicy toast Abby's intro starts with her kicking the figurative dog. No amount of literal dog petting was going to bring her back for me. If it is selfish to want a better character build up before a new character kills off an old one, I'm fine with being selfish in that aspect. It is demanding way more than what I'm willing to give up in order to like it because there are plenty of ways that they could have killed Joel and got me to sympathize with Abby but the way it was done here was not it for me. Maybe for you but I am not you.
Remember in the original last of us when Bill saves joel? I think this is a perfect comparison of how you do a scene where a character saves another seemingly out of nowhere and not have it be contrived. Let me explain. Bill mentions after the fact through a line of dialogue how he came across joel. It wasn't coincidental. "You come into my house. You set off all my traps." This type of dialogue in a casual playthrough usually goes unnoticed but it's the writers cleverly addressing how Bill found him. Bill had to check what was causing the explosions because not only does he live there as evidenced by the dialogue, so he has to keep his home safe, but also because it could be hunters in the area. "As bad as those things are, at least they're predictable. It's the normal people that scare me." This further explains why Bill went to investigate the noise and thus came across joel. He's paranoid and scared of people. I also appreciate the fact that the developers make you clear two wire traps before joel gets hoisted up. Those traps aren't just there to be a barrier, they add context to the narrative through gameplay.
By comparison the 'joel saving Abby' scene is nowhere near as coherent and that's what irritates us. It's not Joel dying or even how he died. It's the events that preceeded his death. You have to suspend your disbelief in order for this to work. I'll go over my complaints. Owen shows Abby the settlement. Tells her about a patrol then decides to turn back. Having only seen it for 30 seconds she decides to wing it and go for one of the outposts. She kills some runners then discovers the patrol's horse tracks...In a blizzard. I'm not an expert on snow hydrology but I would assume tracks get covered real fast in a blizzard. Shortly after she gets overwhelmed with dozens of infected. Amazing how none of them got her. Just when she's cornered, Joel saves her. Convenient given that she was running aimlessly to get away from danger, and that just so happened to lead her to the exact location Joel was in. Again, in the original, Bill found Joel as a result of Joel trying to find him.
As for Joel making the conscious decision to save her, I half buy it. I understand that he's more compassionate and less cynical from his time with Ellie, but that doesn't mean he has to risk his life for a stranger, but I'll go with it. As for the name drop, this is inexcusable bad writing. Even Ellie refused to give her name to David. A 14 year old had more common sense than adults with 2 dozen years of experience. Abby should have discovered their identity on her own through manipulation. Lastly, trusting Abby back to her hideout is either another character contradiction or plain stupidity they've both developed off-screen. People argue that Joel trusted Henry, but this is false. Firstly, he was largely withdrawn. He cuts Ellie off when she gives her name, then immediately asks "How many are with you?" After Ellie suggests they band together, without hesitation he disapproves. After some convincing and thinking on it, he reluctantly agrees. Again, good writers anticipate that people will look for issues like this and take steps to assure you never find them.
exactly my thoughts. very well put
I mainly feel like Joel and Tommy would hear the horde and keep their damn distance. They would feel no obligation to help Abby either.
@JamesHLanier thank you for your opinion.
@@usul573 This is sooo fucking true oh my god!! When Tommy and Joel hear that horde they get the fuck outta there. They wouldn't go there to see what's up. Wow reading all these comments about stupid plot holes just to kill my favourite character actually makes me hate the game again lol.
@@sebastiankroneder2774 In TLOU1 Joel says "Keep driving Tommy" and leaves three people to an uncertain fate when there is no immediate danger, but in TLOU2 he puts himself into so much danger for one unknown person? You can't see very well in a blizzard too.
"Just passing through". Right, Wyoming...in winter...in a blizzard. That seems reasonable.
Lol
They don’t believe it but it isn’t there business and they don’t think there after them that’s stupid
@@thesenamesguys6283 a dozen of heavily armed fit young strangers (Tommy even knew they were WLF and he seemed to have heard of them) camping dangerously close to your settlement and they clearly lie to you. Let's invite them home, sure...
92brunod I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy the game and couldn’t get past Abby if you could you would realize the game is amazing and a work of art. Also there hospitable people and if they went back to the settlement they’d be completely out numbered
My man Joel nailed a bloater with nothing but giant balls and a machete. There’s nothing soft about him man he even walks around Jackson with a raging hard on all year round
Big Mama Pump has to be the most disliked gaming character ever.
Cause she has a lot of issues
Ngl i hate part 2 Ellie more
Lol I knew that name was gone stick for Abby damn they ruined this game it’s a shame.
I'm not really sure about that...it was in the beginnig and the first part of the game of course...but along the story many people changed their opinion about Abby...is a controversial character...
There is no way a lady who look like that without some serious 'roid use.
Joel lost his daughter Sarah due to trust. Trust in a human at that. He trusted that soldier that gunned them down. & it was Game over after that. They tried to make him seem more like a selfish monster in the sequel, but this is something I thought of while playing. Joel reminds me of Captain Americas Infinity war quote “we don’t trade lives”. Cap wouldn’t trade Visions life even if could potentially save the World. & we saw Cap take anyone down who tried to hurt Bucky in Civil War. & we saw the same with Joel. He wouldn’t trade the life of Ellie, even if it meant saving the world. He would persist on finding another way... Joel was a human, scarred by the years of nightmares. He suffered, but he endured. He & the millions of Joel fans have been disrespected.
#golfclub
Joel and Cap - now that’s a sequel I can get behind!
@@joethealternativegamer3935 So Joel got the Johnny Klebitz treatment
Facts. People really seem to believe that it just takes 4 small years for joel to go soft and become more trustworthy of people. He has been surviving for over 20 years and wasn't someone you could gain his trust easily. Living in comfort didn't soften him up. They're clear moments in tlou2 that shows the viewer Joel is still as cautious and untrustworthy of others as ever. But most people(fanboys mostly) don't even acknowledge them that much. Neil wanted a game people would hate and he got exactly just that because tlou2 sales were down by 85% in the first week of release. Now I'm not ever gonna blame the talented Devs, Artists, 3D modelers, Engine programmers, etc. Its Neil that is to blame since he was the one in charge of this project. This is no one's fault but his own.
@@jcgamer1650 I agree, people like that are the reasons why we rarely have good stories.
Honestly this sequel really wasn’t needed in my head this whole “story” is just a bad dream that Ellie has and her and Joel are living there best lives together forever❤️
I hope sony orders naughtydog to correct this shitty story implementing a dlc where it shows it was all a nightmare in Ellie's infected brain. Please Sony, give the order and take my money!
It was just a bad dream after Ellie smoked that bad weed bruh HAHAHAHAHAH imagine that
@@DavidRivera-qb1un Strong shit, maan.
Brilliant review, it's just such a shame and disapointment for a game we were all so excited for, to see and play as Joel and Ellie again but no.
What pisses me off is Naughty Dog deliberately mislead and lied to us with Joel in the trailers, used a beloved character to market it so we'd believe he would be central to the story and then to kill him in the most disgusting way.
The whole game felt so empty without him, except of course the flashbacks, the Birthday surprise was so beautiful and the best part of the whole game.
Birthday part was very Last Of Us
Birthday flashback and the flashback scene where you snipe infected were awesome. Felt like Last of Us 1. The relationship of Ellie and Joel that we all love. Shame it equated to like an hour of gameplay
@@eddiefisher3093 Yeah, it does, that's the only levels I play now, don't like the rest of the game.
It goes to show that some writers really think dividing fans is a sign of quality and excellence.
This game made my depression worse
You absolutely hit the nail on the head here man - this game did a massive disservice to Joel and DID NOT treat him properly. I just want to explain why I hate it because like many other people its bothering me too -
(Like you put it) - Joel's death - No surprise there - However, its not the fact that he "died" that bothers me, its how he died. Even before the disastrous leaks and the release of the game people were speculating that he was going to die - and I believed it. For me at least, I saw it coming a mile away. But like you put it - its the WAY he died that is the problem. I understand why the the crew ended up at Abby's hideout. The infected were going to overrun them and they needed to work together - like the first game, things like that happen on a whim and you can not control it. However, both Joel and Tommy (as you put it) acted like complete idiots. Giving away who they were, where they lived. That is a downright stupid move that can not be justified because the first game -specifically- showed that Tommy (but especially Joel) are not those types of people and multiple examples (like you pointed out) are given. The 2nd game threw all that away just so the story could get moving. That is why this story is irredeemable IMO. When a sequel completely throws away some of the key attributes to the main characters just so the story can progress at the cost of said characters then that is not a good or worthy sequel.
Abby - Also no surprise - Like I pointed out above (and once again like you said), the game attempts to portray Joel as the bad guy for doing what he did to Abby's father (we of course know why). However, the game only mentions that in passing and since Joel was killed early on its rendered pointless and like more of a - "oh well, he did that you did this" type situation.
- Why did Abby expect Joel to know her?
- After saving her life, she has absolutely no compunction about killing him, then to add insult to injury ND attempts to portray her as "good" and "only doing what had to be done" - no - If that was the case then Abby would have thought twice about killing Joel after he saved her, or at the very least try and establish a serious conflict of interest. By ignoring that fact the only way can I see Abby is some unthinking person bent on revenge and that just isn't a character I can like considering how it happened so quick (and cheap).
All in all - your absolutely right. A disrespectful/unworthy sequel that threw away the most important characteristics the characters had in the last game so just so THIS game can progress, and that is an insult.
You earned a subscriber and a like - big thumbs up for pointing out the massive failure of this game.
:)
Thanks for saying the exact same thing that was in the vid
@@mystowizard7811 I was venting bro. Sometimes you gotta get it into the open. Bottom line is the points Joe summarized this perfectly and I agree.
joel always knew the sequel wasn’t as good lol
He was a smart man lol
This story was such a mess. I can't believe ND actually went down this route smh
It’s “bold”
They should’ve just stopped at the first game.
@@anessamer agreed
I don't think there is much wrong with the route in concept. ND failed at the execution.
Well they sure did "subvert expectations", wouldn't you say?
Sounds like Naughty Dog should've stuck with bandicoots.
Hey, Uncharted was great
Every time someone says the second game is better than the first, a part of my soul shrivels up and dies as I lose a little more faith in humanity.
They killed joel in a cheap way, cribbled Tommy, made Ellie as hateable as abby, the first game also means nothing
Abby was not only unlikeable due to what she did to Joel, she’s entirely uninteresting as a character in general. There’s nothing compelling or endearing about her, and all her portions feel like superficial plot contrivances instead of deep and meaningful character development.
17:47 Fat Geralt to the rescue.
"Abby was not only unlikeable [...] instead deep and meaningful character" - I disagree in that point. Abby was shown as an ice cold killer to begin with by killing Joel. tough one to swallow, I agree. But learning, how she has romantic feelings for Owen (just like Ellie has for Dina), what a lovely kid she used to be before her father was taken away unnecessarily by Joel (what Ellie was when we met her at the first game), how she was saved beeing hang-uP by two young scars, helping them to survive and by that questening what Isaac is leading the WLF to is not deep and meaningful to you? I admit I did not want to play that b#tch myself who killed Joel. But the more I progressed playing Abby, the more I learned that she is as a good human beeing as much as Ellie, trying to survive in that f#cked up world.
Seeking for revenge is not a solution what Ellie recognices too late. That is why I think Abby spared Dina's and Ellie's life at the theater. Proving that she is anything else but cold killer. Othervise Ellie's journy would've end with her throat cut open as much as Yara and Lev would've been dead by only beeing Scars.
I'm afraid to say that but I think the author of this video did not understand the message of the game in several ways. Just remember Ellie returning to the empty house full of nothing and only eight fingers.
@@TheLarry1993 very well said. none of these characters is better or worse than each other. While Abby can be hated due to her side of the revenge she can be paralleled against Ellie in all ways. When Abby stops trying to kill Dina it shows her trying to break the cycle of revenge showing that no matter what her father isn't going to come back but she can appreciate and grow from her time with him and his memories. At the end where Ellie is about to kill Abby, she has a flashback of her last memory with Joel. A happy one at that showing her beginning to try and forgive Joel for his decision at the Firefly hospital. This makes her stop attacking Abby showing her part in ending and breaking the cycle of revenge. Everyone will see it as the message being "revenge is bad" but I think the deeper meaning of it shows no matter what revenge is a fool's game. Forgiveness trumps all.
@@TheLarry1993 I get that everyone has their own opinions, but I don't feel any attachment to Abby. I believe if her character was introduced differently or something, maybe I'll understand. Also I think there should have been a flashback or something to give a reason to why she saves Lev and Yara.
@@TheLarry1993 Yeah, she had romantic feelings for someone with a wife/gf with a child on the way. Real noble of her.
Even when her father was alive, she was so un-charismatic. Just pay attention to the way the speaks to him. I also hated Abby because of this SO much.. She constantly sound like she's fed up and dismissive with everyone, even her father. Whoever was "acting" her parts in the body suit or whatever did an awful job (or a really great job if the point was to hate her).
Zero charisma.
This does what a sequel should never do put you off playing the first one. Because where the characters from the first end up in the second it just doesn't feel worth it to play.
Agreed!
You are 100% correct. I kind of wanted to boot up the Remaster to remind myself why I loved Joel and Ellie so much in the first place. But seeing Ellie so happy and knowing that in 4 - 5 years she'll be an empty shell that has lost literally everything is just too depressing. It actively ruins the original, just like you said.
100% I cant even look at part one after knowing that happy ending I pictured is dead
@Kc Link True and that's actually sad because the first game was a really good game, but now after the second game, it sort of has taken some of that "magic" out of the first game since we know what happens to those characters
That's how I feel with GoT. The rewatch factor is blown.
People that keep saying “this game is realistic” “Joel and tommy has softened” or “joel killed Abbys father.” Purposely love to forget that Joel was to left a family on the side of the road behind to save his own family so what sense does it make for him and tommy to immediately save Abby in the middle of a bunch of infected risking their own lives almost? She should’ve died right there and only there, Joel and tommy both survived multiple occasions separated or together for 20 damn years and are basically survival experts next to ellie who Joel taught how to swim, and not to be trusting with others and you can see that when she refused to give her name to David. If they had softened they wouldn’t forget automatically their survival instincts they’ve learned for 20 years and had rested 5 years still going on searches out for infected and resources you don’t just forget stuff like that! Last but not least fuck abbys dad, Abby is nothing but a oc off a badly written fanfiction and her dAd was willing to kill ellie without permission all for a cure that wouldn’t even work? All bullshit and those who defend this game do it because it’s on main media and are a bunch of sheep or out of pure spite.
Finally someone with some common sense, I thought the same way. Joel and tommy been in the sh*t way too long to be this damn stupid. F*ck This garbage ass game
@JamesHLanier You saying the cure would work is where you are wrong. There is no such thing as a vaccine against fungi. Vaccines are great against viruses but the disease we see in the game is a fungus and vaccines do not work against fungus. There is a video explaining why the vaccine would not work and how killing ellie would be the worst thing to do.
th-cam.com/video/S5ulX06McSY/w-d-xo.html
@JamesHLanier yes in laboratory conditions. Dont forget this is set in a post apocalyptic world where the world is beyond saving. Scientists with all the technology we have are having a hard time to find a vaccine so how will the fireflies in that world make one with limited supplies and technology?
@JamesHLanier You can't say that the fireflies have the same technology and resources as we have now. Killing Ellie is just a bad idea.
@JamesHLanier There was nothing implying that. Even in 2020, without a fungul outbreak and with current technology it is difficult to make one so how will the fireflies pull it off?
I am incredibly sad about how this game turned out. The utter disrespect to Joel honestly disgusts me. Now I'm afraid of what Naughty Dog will do next.
Ruin uncharted lol
Nathan will be a complete dunce in the next game
He will run away to an island and cut himself off from his friends
Joe, The Alternative Gamer the did that in the forth game pretty much. I’m more worried about what they’ll do to Crash.
As long as Druckman is still there. Naughty dog is dead to me
I just finished the game and after witnessing Joel’s death, i knew the game would be such disappointment. It was so hard to keep playing. The only reason i continued was because i was able to play as Ellie. Ellie seeking revenge was the only purpose i continued to play. After playing as Abby i knew this game was a trash from here on out!! Tommy would have been a better play through.” WORST SEQUEL EVER” I couldn’t agree more...
Joel death was almost certain. He made too many enemies on the first game. But revealing their names to strangers, that’s easily, in that kind of world they’re living in, just stupid.
The should erase this game make it non official.
Remember how Abby wanted revenge for someone killing her dad and leaving her fatherless by killing 2 dads and leaving Ellie and Dina’s kid fatherless without self reflection or remorse? She is the one who would gleefully slit a pregnant women’s throat. I member. Member how Dina choose to endanger her and her child for some dangerous revenge quest for this girl she just met. SIMP. Remember when Ellie got mad at Joel for punching a bigot sandwich? Member the whole point of the first game was Joel living for human connection; Ellie’s growth, and happiness- only so this game can end it in Ellie’s torment, mutilation, character regression, and abandonment? I MEMBER!
Abby's entire story arc, starting at the point she kills Joel, is one of regret, self reflection and remorse. She kills Joel expecting to feel a relief and satisfaction that never materialises. Trying to save Yara and Lev is her atonement and why they become the focus of the flashbacks at the hospital prompting her to go for back them and protect them throughout the rest of the game. Her threatening Dina, far from being gleeful, is the culmination of her story and the point where she can finally let go, pulling back from the precipice and, instead of repeating the cycle of violence, spare them both.
Dina and Ellie's relationship is seeded throughout the game in little bit's of dialogue as two people who think they have an unrequited love for each other and are too afraid to approach the other without realising it's mutual. While the night before the game kicks off may be the first time they both act on those feelings they're anything but strangers. FYI - Dina says when she reveals she's pregnant that she only knew she was 'late' at the point they set off on the journey so the presumption is that her concern isn't realised until they are on there way to Seattle and finally confirmed later in the game, times and distances are always hard to judge in games but my assumption is that while once you get to Seattle the game takes place over three days the journey to Seattle is considerably longer.
While Joel eventually allows Ellie in he spends the first three quarters of the game actively pushing her away, trying to palm her off on other people and reminding her that she'll never be his daughter (and the preceding 20 years being a hunter killing innocent people and people who deserved it indiscriminately something even Tommy couldn't agree with) so while he may have 'lived for human connection' it was on very narrow terms and and not for completely altruistic reasons, he also stripped her of her perceived purpose and lied about it for selfish, and entirely understandable, reasons.
Finally Ellie, the last thing you can take away from the first game is that she ends it happy, she deals with PTSD following the events with David throughout the final quarter of the game (brief respite for some Giraffe petting aside) and it's revealed at the end of the game that she's struggling massively with survivors guilt compounded by Joel taking away her agency by 'saving' her at the hospital ("...I'm still waiting for my turn"), not to mention the one person she does trust openly lying to her as the very last act of the game.
dac185 I dislike TLOU2 for what was sacrificed for a contradictory and haphazard plot. I already know it’s about hatred, revenge, and forgiveness- but the story telling is so sloppy; especially when I look at as a overarching narrative (ie as a sequel) 7 years in the making. I do not mind That Joel dies if it means we get a good plot that they build off the franchise and naturally Joel should be killed anyway. But if they are going to deliver a lack luster story, sacrificing what most people liked about the franchise in such a poor endeavor is the farthest thing from bold and smart.
Like Joel should die he defiantly need to pay for his sins but I always thought it was silly to have Abby involve her friends as accomplices and she should have killed Joel by herself without Ellie like by sniping or something. That way Joel doesn’t need to break character and walk into an ambush and give out his name if he is sniped. Like there is a lot of wierdness with how he died. I love Lee’s death in walking dead game so I known it can be done. Like why have Joel save Abby’s life if she doesn’t reflect on it? Why have Joel stumble into her instead of her actually find him? If she didn’t involve her friends I would of felt bad when Elie winds up killing them because they weren’t accomplices and would of made Ellie go out of her way to involve them for Abby information more questionable. Also I would of had Abby not have Ellie show up while Joel died. Psychologically speaking It’s hard for me to accept that Abby (who’s father was killed leaving her fatherless) would see Ellie begging her to stop and then choose to beat Ellie’s “dad” to death leaving her fatherless without any reflection. Like she being the very thing she wanted to destroy without question and it doesn’t need to be contradictory like that if Abby doesn’t encounter Ellie in the murder. Abby should of known from herself that Ellie would want revenge like she did for her loved one’s death so it’s just stunting. If Abby could find that Ellie thought of Joel like a father later in the story when Ellie corners her or vise versa, it could of given Abby something to chew on cause she really needed a more defined arc. Ellie should still kill her friends to make Elie learn about the brutality and trauma of vengeance (and because they did not help Abby in her murder but instead are just choosing to protect Abby out of love) it’s more for Elie to think on; and Abby could kill Ellie’s but both relies they will run out of friends at this rate unless they talk it out (Let them climb out form loosing themselves to vengeance except Tommy). Removing the part Where Abs happily tries to slit Dina’s throat to give people less of a reason to hate her. She says “good” and smiles doing the action only to be interrupted by her bow friend not her conscious or self awareness (glee). Could even have a part after Abby kills Jessie, she can pick up his journal and figure out he was going to be a dad to further drive that point home about her revenge making her who she hated. Even better if Abs kills Jessie on a military patrol so it gives her an excuse to quit the militant organization (cause it’s compromising her ethics). I would also want the story about forgiveness actually being concluded with diplomacy and words with both party. It seems off that it would conclude in a knife fight where the “forgiver” gets mutilated. Have Tommy loose himself to vengeance and get killed by Abby to contrast Elie seeing the error in her killing Abs friends and trying to make amends. Also I would have either cut out the farm and return to vengeance bit or end it with Ellie and Abby having to ally to save what’s left of their loved ones form an evil faction that kidnapped them. Maybe even include a scene where Abby and Ellie can return to the hospital and stumbles on security footage that Joel killed to rescue Ellie and maybe Ellie could explain to Abby about how he saw her as his dead daughter to tie into her learning to forgive Joel and maybe Ellie could of scavenged something form Aby’s dad that she lost as an apology or some characterizing scenes to substitute for Joel and Ellie dynamic. Both sides have a few friends left. Make it more about Ellie’s and Abby’s coming of age then a tragic tormenting character regression that leaves Ellie abandoned (no character dynamic to play off for last of us 3). Like this could of been really good story but it’s just so wierd not even counting the flash back within flashback stuff. I think it’s very important to leave relashonship dynamics for the third game and to of been more constructive to Ellie so that the first game about saving her didn’t anticlimax in her ruin and abandonment. Also relationships are a big part of what makes this franchise good. If Ellie gets to grow into her own person and has some new relationships to banter with by the end, then it leaves room for the third and feels more like a natural extension of the 1st because first one builds up Joel and him caring for Ellie, and the 2nd about Ellie building up her own charichter and forgiving/missing Joel. Instead of the first about Joel and how caring for Elie and the 2nd where it doesn’t matter because Elie gets abandoned and tormented anyway and regresses as a character. A little too sadistic to Ellie form a overarching narrative perspective considering how she is just a kid and was unconscious when Joel killed and how Abby insights it from her perspective. Oh and with more of a flash back focus on how Joel would want Elie to be happy and not loose herself to the darkness of the world like he did; some scenes like that peppered in (and not last minute) to more gradually shift the players mindset to forgiveness and remorse after Elie kills some of Abys friends. So much wasted potential and time. Or instead of Tommy dying have Tommy get Bill and Bill gets revenge obsessed. But Joel needed to be in the game more as the Ellie and his relationship drama should probably been the prologue instead of scattered flashbacks. I think if Joel was more involved with him trying to teach Ellie about not loosing herself we would miss him more because he would be doing more in this hypothetical game. Take some ques form grief games and have a Joel funeral. Maybe Ellie’s revenge Posey has Joel’s affiliates and they each can argue over different idea of who Joel was and what would he do as she kills Abys friends until eventually realizing Joel would want Ellie safe and never to be as cold blooded as he became and that (half way through the game) it becomes about making amends.
Also what self reflection? Do we see Abby narrate her thought. Or talk about her killing too dads with regret to her accomplices? Does this game end with Both sides mutually agreeing forgiving each other with words; true forgiveness? Or does it more so devolve into a knife fight where one of the sides just gives up and the other never has to agree and boat off? “I forgive you” was never said. My problem isn’t that Abby doesn’t die, it’s that it stupid convenient that Elie remembers Joel’s forgiveness flashback with Abby instead of with Abby’s friends, or even immediate upon Joel’s death. I know it seems high that Ellie forgave but really it’s just her choosing to waste all the lives she previously killed for this purpose last second. Ellie didn’t even think it through it was just spur of the moment flashback. I need more evidence about a arc then conjecture and subjective facial expressions. Ellie ends it a little disheartened about Joel’s choice but otherwise optimistic. You make it seem she is traumatized where if you look at Elie and Joel’s museum flashback she is clearly not traumatized and enjoying herself. Just because she has everything she wanted doesn’t mean she also can’t be upset about Joel’s lye but she isn’t “anything but happy” She is sad about Joel’s choice and the game rightfully (but poorly) explores the consistencies of the choice, but otherwise she has never been better the last game she was constantly moving and changing hands with care takers who inevitably abandon her and she now has someone know she is immune so she doesn’t have to hide as much. which in the first game she directly tells Joel not to abandon her like the rest. Just becuase she is traumatized by the cables and discontent doesn’t mean it is a smart or constructive native mood to tourment her moor and leave her abandoned like she always fears form the first game.
I’m also sick of people’s “hot take” on Joel’s choice. What is Elie 12 in the first game? 12 year olds are not mature enough to make a choice like sacrifice. Not that matters she wasn’t being delivered to be killed, she was being delivered to be experimented on. Fireflies don’t ask Ellie “hey do you mind if we just kill you as a first resort for this cure?” not that Elie would comprehend how suspicious that is. Last minute Joel learns Ellie is getting killed as the doctors first resort?! What “scientist” (who in our world have never been successful making anti fungal vaccines with pre-apocalyptic technology) decide to kill their test subject as first resort especially if she is the only specimen! That is just stupid and suspicion making their prospects of a vaccine dubious at best. It was a selfish choice on Joel’s part assuming fireflies are legit. But from what context was given to Joel this seems just as if not more likely to be a bunch of new age plague doctors playing pretend. Joel throughout the first game mistrusted people but it’s also shows that more then half the time his eye for scratchy circumstances is right on.
It’s not as simple as “Elie rationally and informed, agreed beforehand to self sacrifice in services for a (totally credible) institution who just wants to do good in the world and Joel steals humanity’s last chance for a cure for some toxic one sided father figure relationship.” Also the lye. What if your kid wanted to kill them self for a cult’s suspicious cause and their too optimistic or naïve or too young to rationalize it? Lying to prevent the kid running away back to the cult is a understandable move to stall for time. Not perfect one but the circumstances were not perfect.
It’s called “Character development” from the first game. like a meaningful change form the start to the end to build on a coherent message: where before Joel was trying to distance himself from caring to not loose another daughter figure, he eventually gives in and changes to care more then something other then survival just like Ellie learns the reality of this world but also not to loose herself in it like Joel did. People don’t care for completely altruistic reasons, but they still care none the less; that’s what made the first game realistic.
I get that Dina and Ellie were “seeded” afterwards. But love at first sight and cheating is still a unhelpful and sloppy trope. Dina being nothing but a yes women at the expense of her and Jessie’s kid is an enabling boring or toxic relationship. Jessie should have been informed and they could talked stuff out and agreed on something. I’m glad she leaves Ellie given what was written in the scripts but she probably should of left sooner or not have joined at all? Have her have goals other then Ellie or wanting to live with Ellie heck have her and Elie disagree on something’s but love eachother anyway. She seems to dependent for the entire game other then the last 5 min. Undercooked but a good premise. Time is hard to judge but I’m not going to fix the wrighters mistakes for them.
Abby’s “atonement” should have been to reconcile and talk things out with Elie (the person she actually victimized) so they can actually forgive and it’s not just looking like Abby thinks she can forgive herself for wronging someone else by doing some good to unrelated people. Isn’t this supposed to be a story about forgiveness?
@@wastelesslearning1245 No, it's a story about the cycle of violence and love not forgiveness.
Abby doesn't let Ellie go because she forgives her and Ellie definitely doesn't let Abby go because she forgives her. Both of them have lost everything they love because of the actions brought about by that cycle.
dac185 sure. Interesting on how you Don’t reply my points. I am aware of the themes including the cycle of violence but for the same reason that I disregarded the other “thematic connections”, the “cycle of violence” was explored poorly and was again contradictory and in my pinion stupid. But I’ll bite, let’s explore this “game” form that Lense. Again my problem is not the ideas but how poorly exicuted they were and what they sacrificed for said lackluster follow up.
First off from a gameplay contradicts the cycle of violence. You and Abby mow down countless faceless goons in this story. How come Aby and Elie aren’t getting hunted by thousands of outraged loved ones. It’s so inconsistent. Every goon poetically has a loving tie to someone. That’s like a mob beating Luke from star wars to death with a pipe because they all had a janitor cousins on the Death Star who died when it blew up. It’s not profound. People get mad at people all the time for stupid reasons too as well as ligit grievenc. If the game was playing this to its logical conclusion: every other enemy you slay will ad another posey hunting both party and the absurdity of how contrived the cycle of violence conveniently stops for plots is unbelievable. The gameplay also gives you no choices to do non violent take downs. I normally would not have a problem with this except the game makes the player suffer and is judged by the narrative for a plot and actions entirely out of their control. If Elie or Abby don’t do what they did, they die and get a game over there is no choice and therefore no legit moral judgments. From a causal perspective they are all defending their lives.
The setting: the last of us takes place in the apocalypse. In our real world “the cycle of violence” ended because of non-biased fair 3rd party criminal justice system intervening and preventing future crimes by locking up the “bad guys” or at lest that’s the idea. But in a world where the courts are corrupt, inept, or non existent there is only too options: bring the aggressor to justice yourself and prevent the same aggressor form wronging others in the process or let the aggressor go I hopes the aggressor doesn’t wrong others the same way. That’s the only options you get in the apocalypse except build a new court system. Most people in these settings are survivors who have to do what they can to survive and bring some sense of justice. Suddenly it’s not so noble to pacifist and end the cycle of violence if letting them go means more people get hurt. Again gameplay wise it’s self defense cause enemy’s shoot on sight or are scripted not to give you a choice.
Narrative: “oh it’s so horrible Elie goes after Abby’s friends” no it’s not. Abys friends were accomplices in Joel’s murder so it makes sense and is just for Ellie to kill them. Arguing against that is like arguing that if a group of bandits sacked a town, the head bandit can tell the townsfolk “they took it too far” for killing her possey accomplices. Co-conspirators get time too. They really should of had Abby kill Joel by herself so I’ll feel bad. Also Let’s look at the in-sighting incident. Joel kills Abys dad to rescue Ellie. Abs swears to get revenge for the loss of her father. Abby brings a possey of accomplices. Joel saves her life. Why didn’t Aby end the cycle of violence? Elie begs her not to kill her dad. Surely Aby should reflect and see she is victimizing a unrelated party the same way joel indirectly victimized her. Why don’t she end the cycle of violence? Why didn’t she rather choose to forgive or “end the cycle” by killing Elie and Tommy? Oh wait it’s a. impossible standard in this world; that’s why. Killing Tommy will just get his wife after you. Killing Elie would get Dina after you. Killing anyone who takes Umbridge with Abby being a murderous aggressors with a mob to her back will just get rediculous. It’s so convenient for this 1 dimensional take on these themes. “Clearly Joel is the villain”; sure he’s no saint and has it coming from his past but he trying to saves Ellie and Abys dad gets in the way and therefore died. Abys dad was going to kill a little girl (from a science perspective for no reason and belongs to a pretty dubious organization). So the price of Joel saving his daughter is this random doctors daughter wanting go out of her way to kill him and leave Ellie’s and Dina’s kid fatherless just because. Could of been a good plot point of Abby thought about it or was distressed for becoming the thing she swore to destroy. It’s like a mom saving her baby form a bear; killing the bear in the process only so the cub can eat the mom alive out of vengeance. Give me a break. That’s not eye for eye. That’s just petty circumstance. If my dad was going to kill a kid and her dad killed my dad to rescue her I could at least see where he’s coming from (especially with how dubious the cure was anyway).
Aby belongs to a militant faction while Ellie is village folk; surely Abby killed way more people. She worked for WLF. She betrays her WLF friends too. I would rather Abys dad be killed by Joel in the phase of Joel’s life when he was a selfish borderline deranged survivor. No moral excuse for Joel to show your past can catch up to you and him not getting a chance to save Abby to show he changed. From Ellie’s perspective Aby draged her into the cycle of violence. Aby come from out of nowhere to threaten and kill Elleis family members for saving her own life while unconscious and leaves. That’s not morally grey that’s actual injustice on Ellies side:
And what’s the reward for ending the cycle? Missing figures and abandonment. Here is a basic thing when writing charichter consequences. Someone does bad in the end give them bad. Someone does good in the end, give them good. Someone does bad in the end, don’t give them good or more then other wrong party. Someone does good in the end, don’t leave them with less for it.
They cycle of violence could of been ended in started in so many ways they were better instead of this contradictory stuff we got. Like if Ellie was given the choice to let her towns court/justice system to track Abby down on her behalf but she chooses to get revenge anyway. Or show the alternative to letting someone get away with crimes (that aggressor victimizing more people that could of been prevented)- that is the whole evolutionary point of that emotional drive. Learning to be diplomatic with the apposing viewpoint. Real forgiveness from talking it out and agreeing to stay way. But no Aby (the aggressor of the two) gets to keep a loved ones and boat off into the distance after being rescued. On Elie’s side the cycle of violence could of been ended so easily if Ellie remembered Joel talking about forgiveness flashback at his funeral not at the end of the game. Why don’t she remember Joel’s talk when she finds the first of Abby’s friends or shoots at the first human enemy in the game? It’s so convenient she remembers just in time for a non-cathartic ending where everyone is worse off and learned not how to resolve problems but how to give up; making all the deaths in this game pointless.
You end the cycle of violence either killing everyone involved and not victimizing unrelated people, have a criminal justice system impartialy deal with it, or forgive on both sides with dialogue: not one sided (assuming the perpetrator doesn’t continue to victimize which could of been prevented). Of these options naughty-dog didn’t explore 30% arguably 2/3 fully.
Just wastes so much potential and character growth for shock value. All to make beloved characters better off dead or for the first game never existing. There are ways to fix these narrative holes of avoid making them. If your going to sacrifice do it for more then shock cause.
And also they made abby's father look bad cause he was so persistent in killing ellie and getting the cure. Idk why they showed him that way. This made me not care about abby's revenge even more in my opinion. GREAT VIDEO AS ALWAYS THO
Thanks!
I agree. Instead of being some random surgeon following orders he’s the one wanted to kill Ellie. So no I don’t feel bad for killing him anymore.
Somebody show this to Troy Baker, as he states, "The developers would never disrespect the characters after 7 years!" haha
Edit: Never mind, just sent it to him.
Lol I don’t know if he will watch! I really like him as a voice actor
god bless you ma man
There’s fan fiction written better than this sequel.
where can i find it?
The Joel/Tommy ambush makes even less sense when you take Tommy's own words into account. He's worried about leaving Jackson vulnerable and getting hit by hunters "again". So according to the game itself, there's a specific reason for them to be cautious about strangers... even more so than they already should be (this shit is fundamental, ffs).
I think the studio was in turmoil with 70% of the original staff leaving. Could it have been over creative differences i.e. When this story was pitched to them by Neil Druckmann?
Maybe! It could have been from the hard development of uncharted 4
Seems like it
I really wouldn’t be surprised by how poor the plot is. I bet you a lot of them just felt defeated working on it and left.
@@andersondawn3631 I imagine that being a reason why this game took 7 years to release instead of 3-4 years. Overworked and burnt out employees who have to develop a game around a story they might not like. It all makes sense.
If I'm correct, the staff from the 1st game were fired due to not liking to have trans or gay characters for no reason
I agree it doesn’t make sense for Abby to leave Ellie alive after killing Joel. Ellie is literally screaming on the ground that she’s going to kill Abby. So Abby obviously knows she has a very strong bond with Joel not to mention she’s the reason Joel killed her dad. Logically she would think “if I kill Joel she (Ellie) is going to feel how I feel because Joel is basically her dad” meaning she is definitely going to come after me like I came looking for Joel. So it wouldn’t make any sense to let her go because Abby knows she’s going to have to fight her in a death match later. In a world as brutal as theirs Someone in Abby’s shoes would most likely end the cycle before it starts by killing both Joel and Ellie given the easy opportunity she had.
The sad thing is that Neil doesn't even bother about us "fans" who are actually genuinely disappointed with the game because he's just so completely blinded by his own pride and arrogance. He made a game based on what HE wanted it to be about and not take into account fans expectations especially coming from the first game. If they were to make a part 3 it would just be even worse than part 2 since Neil will probably push for Abby to be the playable character for the entire game and build on her character instead of Ellie/Joel/Tommy etc.
Basically Joel, a beloved, complex well written character was reduced to a macguffin to start a revenge story
"Kinda forgot" pretty much sums up the game...LOL
Lol
You review basically totally on points with everything that I feel about this game. Only one thing to add, I really think the pacing of this game is awful.
I think that relates to the structure of the game
You said it perfectly. Abby gets saved by Joel but she gets blunded by the fact thet he killed her dad and we dont care about her story because we get blinded by Joels death. Abby doesnt forgive Joel, so why should we forgive Abby?
I don't think the game wants you to forgive Abby. I think it wants you to understand why she did what she did. Not even Ellie forgives Abby but she knows to kill her would dishonour Joel's memory.
@@GhastlCloud775 I could hear Joel saying what Abby said to him in the torture scene with a little twist. "You stupid buffed woman, you don't get to rush this".
@someonesleeping is the only one here with a brain. Killing abby dishonors Joel's memory because he spent so much time trying to protect her and keep her from making the same choices he made after Sarah died. That's why he took her to jackson and tried to give her as normal a life as possible. So that she would never become the person she he did, so that she would be better. That's what that last memory was, the first good memory of him she'd had in a long time, one that wasn't just of him dying.
@@thetransientone6254 amen! Everyone to me just sounds like a bunch of cry babies at this point. I enjoyed the game, even tho the ending was terribly sad. I think if they did make a third and did it well. Like follow the aftermath of Ellie and Abby and how it's changed them as ppl, maybe part 2 could "redeem" itself, since it's just such a "shitty game" according to the majority, who think everything should be sun shine and rainbows
This game is a polished turd.
Yara's death was much more noble and heartfelt than Joel's and that kinda rubs me the wrong way cause of how badly they executed Joel's death.
To be honest it feels like they couldn't stretch ellie's story to a 3rd game because it'll get boring so in order to have one ,they decided to introduce a new character that might lead the franchise, they tried to give abby a good story ,but just got stuck , all the success they had off of the first game had them deceived to actually do anything possible even if it's horribly dumb to have a 3rd game , so after many tries they just gave up and gave us this story .by forcing us to like abby ,
The bad thing in all this is that it failed miserably.. eliminating any chance of a 3rd game .
Oh god, I don’t want another. Should have been one game
So you think they won't make a part 3 of one of the best selling games on the ps4?
It will have a part 3 and a ps5 remaster, doesn't matter how crap it was, it prints money.
@@max1311 yeah that's the point they tried to make things different and risk everything to it set up for a 3rd game but it failed .so if we do get a 3rd game no one will buy it
@@user-zf8on3ck9v I will
The third game was going to Abby and Lev, as a new Joel and Ellie. They tick all the alphabet things and Druckman says she's now like Joel with Ellie. It really does seem like he's surprised she disliked so much. She an ugly, over muscled shallow dislikeable character and having her looking after a trans kid doesn't change anything. What a mess.
The flashbacks also remind me why The Last of Us 1 was so charming. Ellie as a kid, somewhat still innocent with her playful personality, and the way she bounced off Joel's personality. The museum part was great. Ellie as an adult in TLOU2 didn't feel like Ellie at all to me.
Yes!
@JamesHLanier Not sure what your point is, but Ellie was a total bore in the last of us 2.
"Neil has talent", eh not really. He had a good idea, but as a writer he's mediocre at best.
Your wrong he made the last of us
@@thesenamesguys6283 No shit. It was his idea. Did you not get that?
@@thesenamesguys6283 He made it with Bruce Straley. Then Bruce left Naughty Dog and Neil butchered TLOU 2. Coincidence? I think not.
Bruce Stanley has been with ND since 99 and has been the genius behind the unchartered series and TLOU. He left due to how hard they were pushed to complete unchartered 4. And now Druckmann steps up as main director for TLOU2 we see it was really Bruce Stanley who is the genius behind all these games
TLOU & TLOU: Left Behind: Masterpiece.
TLOU 2: *MASTERSH*T.*
Dear God, I cannot believe that I waited 7 years for this horrid sequel of a game. They completely forgot about Joel's character altogether. In The Last Of Us, Joel was cautious, calculative, suspicious around people he ran into, and seemed to have good judgement skills- instinctively knowing when something didn't feel right about a situation. Tommy was also the same as Joel was. In TLOU 2, Joel and Tommy essentially trust some random person that they just met 3 minutes ago, and Abby takes them to her cabin, filled with more random people. It's like they both walked into their deaths, and it's sad to watch such a strong character like Joel killed in this matter. Not only did Naughty Dog do this, but, they also false-advertised the hell out of this game. I seriously thought that in TLOU 2, Ellie was going to be the main protagonist this time around, and Joel would have taken his place as the supporting character. But then, as I played I was like "What in the literal f*ck is going on in this game?" The storyline is a choppy, poorly executed, and jumbled excuse for a sequel. At this rate, it would've been better if The Last Of Us never even had a sequel in the first place. The Last Of Us, and TLOU: Left Behind DLC were perfectly written, and it's a shame to see the series turn into trash because of Naughty Dog.
Joel can kill a bloater with melee but dies by a golf club...
Last of us 2 is like watching a ship depart a dock, sail only a little ways out where it's easily visible from shore, then it hits a rock and starts to slowly sink in place over the course of a few hours
Personally I think that if Joel was to die at Abby's hands it should've been via a boss fight. A challenging one where all the tactics we used as Joel in the first game are used against us.
Frankly Naughty Dog missed out on potentially making a great villain with Joel and when I say "villain" I mean that in the loosest, best and most sympathetic way possible.
I've got my own ideas on what a great sequel to the first game would've looked like but I'd rather not bore the poor soul who stumbled across this comment to death.
All I'll say is that the act of killing Joel as Abby should have as much emotional weight as the act of saving Ellie as Joel in the first game.
By this I mean that whilst we may or may not agree with the action we can definitely understand why said characters are doing it and can sympathise with them.
Every new idea I hear for this game is better than what we got
@@joethealternativegamer3935 I'd probably go a bit further in saying that they should've marketed this game as being about a new set of characters.
Abby and her crew and whatnot. From there they're on a mission of some sort that's gradually revealed as the story progresses. After bonding with these new characters heavily we then discover that they're after Ellie for the cure and that Abby has a personal vendetta against Joel for killing her father.
Have Ellie and Joel's involvement be a reveal halfway through the game. I doubt anyone who's a fan would be upset with that sort of trickery.
They certainly subverted my expectations
I expected a good story
Me too lol
We have to remember that Joel's decision to save Ellie had more factors backing it up, more than just his love for her, while it was still by far the biggest deciding factor. Remember that Joel never believed the Fireflies' mission to return the world it used to be? And throughout the first TLOU we can see what humanity has become. Absence of law and order, people robbing, killing, raping each other, lot of different military, terroristic groups pursuing their own interests. Do you really think that they could simply return to the old days after all of that savagery? Joel knows that there is no return, he has known ever since he lost Sarah. Remember, it wasn't the infection that killed her daughter, it was a normal human.
Plus if u find and listen all those tapes that the Fireflies left behind, u will learn that they weren't even sure that cure would work. So there was no way that Joel would have let his beloved Ellie die, for that hopeless mission that he knows would never succeed, to develop the cure that might not even work at all.
And in TLOU2 he is portrayed as selfish, stubborn, oldish dumb man, how are we supposed to believe that?
Right on spot here well said bravo.
Thank you :)
There's another plothole regarding Abby leaving behind loose ends. I can maybe buy into her decision to let Ellie and Tommy live, but remember how those two track down Abby's group - jackets saying „Washington Liberation Front” on them. Seriously? They know they are going after another group and presumably they don't want to be found afterwards, but they wear jackets that CORRECTLY IDENTIFY THE GROUP THEY BELONG TO? What the absolute fuck? Why not wear literally any other jackets? And if they hadn't literally worn their names on their sleeves, no one would have been able to come after them, since that was the one lead that Tommy and Ellie were able to follow. So not only are Joel and Tommy showing a distinct lack of survival skills, but so is Abby's group. And I'm supposed to be invested in the story and care for either side of these idiots? Not gonna happen.
Ellie drops a map with her hideout labelled and circled in red marker next to Abby's dead friends. The game was written by a chimp.
Good point!
@@joethealternativegamer3935 yeah totally GOOD POINT, they were all bribed by Sony or tricked by all the "false advertising"! Nobody likes the game, it's all just lies and propaganda
I kinda get that they would have those patches on in Seattle, but yeah just rip those damn patches off the second you leave to go somewhere else.
Thank you for pointing out how the 'forgiveness' ending was not earned, it should have been developed throughout the story, like if Ellie's friends asked for her to drop this revenge quest before coming to her realisation. Instead it feels forced ... also Ellie doesn't know who Lev is at any point or the journey they went through with Abbey so no comparisons to her and Joel's relationship would make sense ... to Ellie they shot an arrow through Dina and looks like a scar who were all hostile to her.
Lastly, what about Tommy at the farm? He lost in 2 encounters with Abbey, his eye and potentially Maria. Now wants Ellie to traverse months across the country by herself to finish off Abbey when he can see she is happy ... doesn't look like Joel's brother to me! He knows how much Ellie meant to Joel - disrespecting Tommy's character again.
Yea Tommy got shit on! But we needed revenge lol
But her friends did ask her to drop it. Jesse and even Tommy told her to go back to Jackson, saying that killing Abby wasn't worth it. I thought Abby carrying Lev on the beach is supposed to be reminiscent of the opening of the first TLOU and the end. Showing how Ellie is now the aggressor.
Tommy witnessed his niece die in front of him, his brother, lost an eye, mobility of his leg and his wife. To me, I'm not surprised Tommy is doing what he is doing. He's lost everything. If they do a part 3 I would really like to see a redemption arc for Tommy though.
@@tierk4328 I'm referring to adding more in depth cutscenes where her friends questions her rational, what has been lost due to her pursuit and what Joel would have wanted (thus making the player think) which would lead to a set up for a satisfying ending of forgiveness. I wanted Abbey to live and Ellie to drop her quest, but done so in a more effective story telling method.
@@miket2908 Dina said to Ellie when they came across the dead girl with the arrows 'if this was enough', Tommy even says when they all regroup in the theatre "they got what they deserved" asking Ellie "is it okay?", Telling her that they have already taken enough from them and killing Abby isn't worth it. In answering your question about why they didn't reference Joel I like that they didn't do that. It made the player and somewhat Ellie forgets why they are doing this and what type of person Joel was. The violence feels senseless. The revelation with Joel and Ellie at the end was great to me. It felt refreshing. Again I don't think the ending was about forgiving Abby it was about acknowledging that Abby lost people too and killing her would have dishonoured Joel. I don't think the game wants you to forgive Abby, I think it wants the player to understand why she did what she did.
I’m still conflicted about how I feel about the game, the open Seattle section was probably the best part for me literally explored for hours. You make really good point about how the story could have been so much more impactful, I got to let the story sink in and do a second play through :)
I’m with you. Sometimes you need to experience the story more than once and let it breathe before you can settle on an opinion. And then those opinions could change after more discussions with other people :)
The Last of Us : better story, medium gameplay and graphics, beloved characters, excellent music, '' medium'' ending.
The Last Of Us Part II : shame story, excellent gameplay and graphics, hated characters,excellent music, better and emotional ending ( I mean the farm scene only)
What we needed in The Last Of Us Part II : MORE JOEL AND ELLIE RELATIONSHIP AND SPEND MORE TIME TOGETHER! BECAUSE IT'S THEIR GOD DAMN GAME. A better story, different ways to end the game and different choices for you to make the story as you want to be and kill one of the three ''main'' characters.
CHANGE MY MIND!
You make some good points! I agree some of the farm is pretty good!
I really liked it the story actually. It reminded me alto of 'Neo-Westerns' like 'Hell or High Water', 'Logan', or 'No Country for Old Men'. None of the character deaths is spectacular or grand they are brutal and sometimes slow. It gives the sense that time is never on your side and is always running out. I thought the killing of Joel in the first act was pretty bold because he is never able to talk to Ellie or give her guidance. She only relies on her memories of him to help guide her. It felt honouring to Joel because as much shitty stuff Joel has done he has also done a lot of good and that is shown in Ellie especially in the final fight. I've pondered a multiple choice ending but I'm happy they went one way with the ending it gives a sense of doom and I think makes Ellie more real. She never fully gets over Joel and her actions are her own.
someonesleeping Lmao and Abby gets her vengeance and is rewarded in the end with her new found relationship with Lev. Ya sure dude. As my friend Joel once said:
“Ya you keep telling yourself that bullshit.”
@@asadbashir3199 Abby lost all of her friends. Owen, Mel, Manny, etc. All of the are dead she never gets to get back at Ellie at that and by the end of the game she doesn't want to. Like Abby Lev also lost everything, he lost his sister and his home. Neither of them will ever be able to get justice for there loses.
Joel lives.
Fixed it for ya
The reasoning of them becoming soft being an excuse is even more lazy when you think about how old Joel was when this started.
The man already had a daughter and was used to living that way his entire life up to that point (hardships of working / not having enough money). The dude then close to mid-life has this virus breakout and kill his daughter, and he spends the rest of his years up until meeting Ellie (and after) doing heinous and evil things. You're going to tell me the few years of him living in "sort of safety" is going to make him soft?
They still go out and scavenge as he has stuff to trade with traders, you still need to earn items / food somehow. I'm sure his entire life wasn't living in some gated community without any worries in the world. Especially once he lives those areas.
I feel like the second you go out on patrol, that extreme caution would be reactivated.
''you see, there was a sequel.
wasn't as good.''
-joel
Joel is right!
They took 2 beloved character and basically committed character assassination . To get STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER ababby that at best the vast majority of players will dislike. Clap , Clap, Clap ! 10/10 or i loose my job .
Such a well done video, man. You summarized basically everything I was angry about. The laziness in the writing, the disrespect and deconstruction of beloved characters, the awful treatment of Joel, how they shamelessly villainize Joel and Ellie(when every sane person knows that Joel did what he did, only out of love), the amateur structuring of the chapters, the manipulative, desperate attempt to make the player care about Abby to the point where it's just laughable, the way they force Abby into certain circumstances to make her look like a hero when it suits the story, as if she's on autopilot, the deliberate attempt to ruin everything we love about the first game in some inexplicable plan to be divisive. The list goes on. There's no really deep, profound message here. No internal conflict. Nothing thought provoking that we're left with. Just a miserable, cut and dry ending that destroys the characters we love...Now a sequel that's focused on anger, hatred and forgiveness between Joel and Ellie would have been far more compelling and believable. Not this misguided mess that only THINKS it's so brilliantly, artistically profound.. Though I'd still prefer no sequel if I had to choose. I'm so disappointed...A 7 year wait for nothing but pure contrived misery.
It's such a shame. SO much time and effort was put into this game. You see it in the visuals, detail, animations, acting performances, soundtrack, etc, but all of that gets so weighed down and practically forgotten due to how poorly directed the story is. They should have just left it alone, man. All this game does is ruin the emotionally heavy impact the first game had left us with. It's truly heartbreaking. Bruce Streeley was definitely a vital piece of NaughtyDog and that team is just not the same as it used to be, especially now with Neil Druckmann fully at the helm to do as he pleases. That has never been more clearer than it is now. Darker days are ahead.
Honestly, man. Thank you for this video. Top fucking notch.
:)
Damn man. Reading your comment was a real treat, honestly!
Man I agree with everything you stated. That’s why I didn’t buy this game, why would I make this company richer when they fvck us over with this?
I agree with your video, and thank you for sharing. This has me question how would the story be if Bruce and the former employees did not leave, as I do not enjoy what Neil and Halley Gross has shared. As men patrolling the area to protect the small community in Jackson, no sane individual will immediately trust a stranger and offer a place in your gated home knowing of the thieves, hunters, cannibals or potential infected people are a threat. Joel would have scolded Tommy for mentioning his name and would not ever enter a closed room with strangers that are armed. I am disappointed, but not surprised I have seen users insulting players who disapprove of these changes to the character's actions when this sequel contradicts how the protagonists behaved in the first game.
There is also the factor of how foolish the characters act in response to Abby and how each attempt against her life failed many times unrealistically. (e.g. when Ellie finds Joel being attacked, she does not shoot but tries to rush Abby from behind nor look around the corner and the same applies to Tommy when he attacks Abby later in the story.) The sequel consists of conveniences, poor character development, plot changes all in favor to pandering in my opinion. Neil did say "The Last of Us 2 will normalize what is normal," not much discussion on Joel, Ellie, Tommy, Ellie's immunity in further detail or what became of the Fireflies who chased Joel running with Ellie.
I think a good comparison is how well done the story is in the first with how poorly executed it is in the second. The team behind the first had that secret sauce
The ending is when you play as Abby and let ellie kill her then turn the console off and never open the game again
Hey man I just wanted to say that this is the most professional review I’ve seen for this game so far. Everyone else just kept saying they didn’t like it because of Joel dying and they hate Abby but you actually went into it deeper as to why those things were bad. Everyone kept telling me I just didn’t like the game because the story didn’t play out how I wanted it to and that no one has the same views I have on it. But I showed them this video and they finally shut up.
Thank you for a really good review ❤️
Thank you :)
Hey, would you mind telling me who said they didn't like it "because" Joel died?
Your friends or something?
@@kairu_aname
Probably just made it up
@@DarkCircles698
Maybe. I personally haven't seen any reviews that don't like it because he died.
Usually it's because of the bad story.
Joel isn't even acting like the pandemic just happened. When they were trying to get out of town at the beginning of TLOU, Joel wouldn't even consider stopping to pick up his neighbours & their kid.
Joel & Tommy act like comedy relief who can't grasp the world he lives in & acts like he's a suburban house Dad keen to meet the new neighbours.
Abby didn't just kill Joel. He saves her life, then she tortures him to death, employing medical intervention to prolong it as long as possible.
She's established as a sadistic psychopath who wallows in causing pain to the point that when they're caught by Ellie & Owen sensibly wants to get out before they're overwhelmed, she gets angry because she hasn't had enough torture yet.
You can't redeem that. Druckmann's fantasy that he's so good, he can fix that, is farcical. No-one can fix that. You might be able to manipulate intellectual & emotional toddlers into falling for the dog playing & child protection mechanic, but no rational, stable human is going to think that's acceptable.
Druckmann's desire to throw Joel & Ellie aside to replace them with Abs & Lev was apparent from the leaks & he's now come out and said it. His spitting on Joel & physically, mentally and emotionally mutilating Ellie are all in service of getting you to embrace his new characters as your only option, but his arrogance in thinking having Abby be the sadistic tool he uses to do it with such imbecilic, malicious glee can be overcome by trite contrivance and poor writing.
100% agree with everything you said! I gave this game a chance, but it was a horrible story. The devs wanted to check so many boxes and put in so many ideas that it just completely flopped. The pregnancies, love triangles, making fun of Joel's age (several times) and a juiced up she-hulk. WTF were they thinking! It's like I was watching a show on the CW not TLOU part 2!
Finally! I knew I wasn't alone on the idea that the best way forward with LOU sequel would have been to explore new characters in this universe rather than try to continue the Ellie/Joel arc, which ended perfectly.
Sorry about the run-on sentence.
Every time I play the new game I keep on forgetting it's supposed to be a sequel, to me it feels like if fan fiction was turned into a video game.
How about cut out Abby's character all together. Their you go, most of the games problems in terms of the story are solved. We were told that this was suppose to be about Ellie and her journey. She didn't need to split main character duties with someone else.
Yeah, and if you cut out Abby's ten hours long segment, the narrative of the story, the message, they are sooo desperately trying to tell, would still work and nothing would be lost. The only thing I would keep is the Abby's memory of her dad, but I would put it somewhere else in the story. Really the first part is alright. There is tension, a rising momentum and all of a sudden it comes to a screeching halt. Just so Neil can establish his new protege Abby. To be honest they could have done a DLC Abby, or how about a New game+ option but this time we experience Abby's side of the story. So many options. So many missed opportunities. The true tragedy of all this is that Neil is so self absorbed in his own inflated ego, that he wouldn't even listen to sound advice and critique and will continue making contrived shovel-wear as long as he is working at ND as VP, writer and director. Thus another great developer has fallen.
TLoU2 is trash-tier writing. Sadly, a video game version of Rian Johnson is born.
The examples that you gave to Joel's being cautious is not particularly good, only the first one where Joel says to Tommy to leave the strangers on the side of the road
First off Henry and Sam were both hostile towards Joel and Ellie and after that Henry realized that Joel isn't a hunter they had trusty conversations. Joel became suspicious of Henry after he literally left him to die to save himself and his little brother.
Secondly he knew the hunter's tactics because he was in their group before, so it's not surprising that he saw right through their trick.
The Tommy example wasn't really sound either since when Joel and Ellie arrived to their base there were bandit attacks going on, confirmed by Tommy in a dialogue and later the bandits actually attacked again.
My point is that they never were in a situation where they helped somebody and they got attacked by them.
And also the name thing. Why is that a huge problem that Joel and Tommy told their names? There is no internet to track their past deeds, the only person who knew Joel's name was Marlene as far as Joel knew and she didn't go around introducing him to her group.
Did you play the first game? And if you did were you paying attention
17:20 Not true. The first game was co-written by Bruce Straley. Straley kept Druckmann in check every time he had a stupid idea. This revenge plot was Druckmann's original idea for the first game, but Bruce convinced him it was stupid. Then Straley left, and Druckmann brought his stupid idea to life..
That's a myth made up by Niel Druckmann haters. Bruce was the main director along with Niel. He had nothing to do with writing the first game's story. Maybe you can argue that actors did help in the writing but seemingly they liked The Last of us part ll script.
@@soundtrack1405 Read the fucking interviews....
@@soundtrack1405Dude stop meat riding Neil
Joel “You survived because of me!”
Tommy “It wasn’t worth it”
To me what this says about Tommy is that he’s quite different from Joel- “survival at any cost” isn’t exactly his motto. Decency is still a high priority for him.
Both characters are consistent with who they were in the first game. Joe, you even point out the car ride in the Prologue of the first game but you don’t mention how *Tommy wanted to stop and help the family on the side of the road.* I guess it wasn’t a convenient detail for your argument, because it directly proves it wrong. It is Tommy’s nature to be accommodating. And 4 years of peace time in addition to Abby “saving his hide there” will bring out that warmness.
How can a game be made with such poor and inconsistent writing, the scenario seems out of a very cheap soap opera. Miles away from the original game.
Nice accurate & thorough review man, completely sums up my opinion of the game
Thanks!
Finally someone says it as it is. Joel didn't necessarily deserve a happy ending. We're not mad Joel died. We're mad because the events leading to his death were forced and contrived. And also because he and Tommy act out of character.
Yeah the true game was the flashbacks
Yes
I feel like this game should've been a players choice based game. that way each player can have a unique experience. the devs and writers could've made the joel moment a choice while playing abby. Either abby forgive or abby still kill. Devs could've gave joel and abby some time together to cause conflicts within abby.
Watching this again years later and I’m still in awe of the direction the writers chose to go. This has to be one of the biggest letdowns in story telling history smh
It is def up there! I’d group the Star Wars sequel trilogy in, whatever that new LOTR show is, terminator dark fate…
I came from your Joel video, and I'm glad I did. TH-cam recommendations really got it right that time. There was a comment I saw on pewdiepies most recent TLOU 2 video where the Joel's death scene is this instead: so instead of joel and tommy being smooth brains, they both immediately pick up on the vibe and tommy claims that he is joel so he sacrifices himself for joel. Imo it seems unrealistic with what we are given in TLOU 2, but if the added more, and somehow the game alludes tommy to abby's intentions, this could be very powerful. Then they could kill Joel in the middle of the story, and have tommy be the shock kill. Anyways amazing video, I subbed! I was here before 10k :)
Holy shit that would be insane but the lead up for tommy and joel wandering into abby's hide out would need to be reconsidered.
I completely agree with you in every regard. It really hurts me to see that this is the sequel for- if not the best game- one of the best game of all time. It is a shame that this game turned the way it did, since I- like most of you- waited for this game to come out and was very excited, and liked a lot the first game- but was very fucking disappointed by how poorly the story was told. Joel's death should've had been executed differently, and he shouldn't have been treated or written like he was new to the world he lives or he hadn't experienced with ambushes and stuff like that. I do also think that the Abby's sections were really long and boring af, the game shouldn't have forced us to play for, literally, half the game as Abby just to understand her motivations, but that's just me, and to be honest, we don't feel pity for her, as she is a monster, she doesn't habe any regret for her actions, unlike Ellie does. Though I think the game doesn't deserve 4/10 just because of the story, the game itself it's good, the gameplay and stuff, I mean. It's the story that ruins the experience. I really hope I don't offend nobody with this comment or my opinion. Take care and stay safe.
That’s fair! The gameplay is great! But that story, for me, drags everything else down
If you look at this game on it's own its fine, but because it's a sequel to an incredible game its very disappointing. The story was very bad, but might i add this game does still have some incredible graphics and a very neat soundtrack paired with it, so there are still positives, still doesn't make this a good sequel though...
(is that a better way of saying it, a bad sequel, not a bad game?)
Also great vid man, keep up the hard work cause this is pretty good content...
Thank you :)
I agree other aspects of the game are really good like the gameplay and the technical aspect of the game!
"There was a sequel.. Wasn't as good" - Joel
This story feels like it was written by Rian Johnsson. Instead of joy, it makes you feel anger and sadness and not in a good way.
Almost as out of character like Luke was in TLJ
Like 'Logan'?
Logan was bleak but well done!
@@joethealternativegamer3935 I'd argue that TLOU2 and Logan are both well done.
Lol
We should get a band of writers and animators together and make a fan remake. Not a game, but a story deserving of being told *right.*
THANK YOU FOR BEING THE FIRST PERSON TO MENTION HOW THEY MADE JOEL SEEM EVIL IN THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME. They literally had him looking like a psycho when he got in the operating room.
Yea it was so off
How did Tommy or Joel just forget they're wanted by half the state and can't smell suspicion or hear/see abby pulling out a fucking shotgun in a dead silent room.
I agree with how he shouldn’t have walked into the ambush, but I think that it kind of works. After being with Ellie and raising her as if she were his daughter, he grew to be a man who’s nicer. This is also shown by the start of part two when he tries really hard to be her friend. You do make a really good point though
17:31
Based on the story of TLOU2 and the fact that he was unable to sell the story in college, I would argue that he doesn't really have talent. Unless that talent consists of self-promotion to get the job of creative director.
I suspect that the big reason that TLOU1 was considered great is precisely what is missing in TLOU2, Bruce Straley.
your channel is criminally underrated, ur reviews are better than a lot of reviewers with millions of subs, i hope u get the recognition that you deserve man! keep this consistency and quality up and you will get there! me and many others will be here to support you through your career! good luck brother! ur awesome
Thank you for your kind words! I’ll keep working at it :)
@@joethealternativegamer3935 you deserve it mate
An idea for Part 3 would have Ellie waking up from a nightmare after the ending of Part Two ( With the events that took place). Then the real last of us story starts and she wakes up in a panic with Joel shaking her asking her if she's alright cause she has a bad infection with the chemical burn on her arm, and her first words being "I almost shit myself" and hugs him.
First time watching, loved the video. I think there was something u missed too. I personally found it unbelievable that tommy, a year after being spared and nearly killed by abby a second time, would send elle after her. Tommy views elle as a daughter figure because of how much joel loved her. The day after Joel was killed, an emotional Tommy still found it a priority to protect elle from herself and others. And we are just supposed to believe after a year he would just ask elle to leave her family to hunt abby..ON HER OWN???
Good point!
@@joethealternativegamer3935 the most criminal part is that we dont even get any real gameplay with joel, like none...
I find it odd how Isaac (who isn't a Firefly and who is shown to be a very strict and ruthless leader) would allow Abby, some of his best soldiers and best doctor, Mel, to go on a 2000 mile round trip, through infested lands brimming with danger, based only on the information that Tommy was in Jackson.
What may have made more sense is if Abby convinced him to let her go because she told him that she'd found someone who was immune to the virus. I still think that someone like Isaac, given what we saw, will probably have laughed this off and insisted that he had more pressing matters at hand.
It's also surprising that Abby wouldn't have noticed Mel's pregnancy during such a long trip. But what's most ridiculous of all, is that Abby decided to go it alone once the team reached Jackson. Why? Because she fell into a childish strop because her former boyfriend had got Mel pregnant. Then there are the plot conveniences: a snow storm, an infected herd, and Abby's going it alone all led to her bumping into the person who she was looking for, precisely as she was about to be killed?? And then Ellie arriving (without canvassing the building for threats - given her experience surely she'd have tried to sneak into the room or created a distraction to pull Abby's team out of the room and thin them out) at the moment the killing blow is struck. Abby and Ellie were caked in plot armour, and Joel was full to brim with plot poison, robbing him of his instincts and 20+ years of experience living in a post apocalyptic World. Not to mention the caution that he would most certainly have to live with to his dying day after what transpired at St Mary's hospital.
People can love the story, that is fine, but please don't tell me that the story is intelligent, tight and consistent. Going from TLOU to TLOU II, from a story perspective, is like going from Casablanca to a CW tv show.
Less than 2000 miles. You're exaggerating. Also, Isaac knew about what Joel did. And you said that Abby was one of his best. Think of it as Abby's loyalty mission.
What do you mean during such a long trip? They traveled by truck. There and back takes a few days, a few weeks tops. Pregnancy isn't really noticeable until a few months in. And no, Abby went on her own because she was worried Owen would talk the rest of the group out of it. All scripted events can be dismissed as plot conveniences? Ellie and Joel need to get derailed in winter, so Joel just happens to fall on a piece of upturned rebar? Joel, the man who can get really attached to a young girl, just happens to be the one escorting a young girl who needs to get killed for a vaccine to be created? Got any problem with those plot conveniences? Ellie did try to sneak into the room. She saw Joel getting beat, and rushed in. Can't really blame her for that.
The story is intelligent, tight, and consistent.
Red dead redemption does revenge better
I think one of the ironies of criticism of this game is that critics are often trying to be fair about Abby and find ways to make her work, which causes them to miss the bigger point--Abby is almost irrelevant. Her entire story with Lev and Yara has nothing to do with the plot. Her friendships with Owen and Mel and Mani and all of them has nothing to do with the plot. The WLF's fighting with the Seraphites has nothing to do with the plot. What if the WLF was a group of tennis fanatics, Abby spent her weekends fisting Mel and Owen side-by-side, and Lev and Yara were two eunuchs who served drinks in the compound? Absolutely nothing PLOT relevant would change. Her only job is to hate Joel enough to hunt him down, sending Ellie on the warpath, and yet have an understandable motivation and not be a miserable piece of shit person, just another morally grey person trying to get by, who has friends and family like everyone else. They not only failed to even do that right, but then they crammed in hours and hours of pointless crap. There is no way to make Abby work with just some structural changes to the game--Abby's entire section needs to be removed. I mean, honestly, that alone would improve the game even as it stands--keep in the dream/memory of finding her dad dead, because that's her motivation, but cut the rest. Oh, we wouldn't know who this kid is who put an arrow in Dina? Uh, so what? Why do I need to know? I'd just assume he's another friend of Abby's, just like the others I've killed. Why did Abby leave the WLF and head for the coast? Don't know, don't care, I'm just here to shank a bitch. If we're supposed to get Ellie's single-minded obsession and descent, then let us stick with Ellie in her descent and see the world through her single perspective. You might think it's better to have developed characters, and this would rob Abby of that, but she's not very well developed anyway, bouncing back and forth in her behavior, nor does she ever reflect on the themes. It'd still suck for many reasons, but it'd be shorter and not as chock-full of transparently manipulative tricks, and the pacing would be vastly improved over any other potential arrangement which maintains the completely unnecessary Abby sections.
I know it's been well over a year since this train wreck released, but bite me. I'm still acting like only the first game ever existed and ended there.
Wait, there was a second game!?
Very good explanation why the "Joel got softer..." excuse is not believable, at all. It's clear why the writing, thus the story turned out to be so bad, when so many working on the game left ND and most importantly Amy Hennig. Imagine how good the story would have been with her writing it.
They deserve to fail financially so that this kind of disrespect to fans and players will not become the new normal from now on. Even if they boast the strong starting sales of 4mil copies (disregarding the returned ones or those that are still blocked from returning by Sony), I expect on the long run to sell under 10mil copies in total, and that would be a failure compared to the 17mil copies sold by the 1st game.
Ellie wanted to forgive Joel, the ending showed that she didn’t forgive him at all in my opinion, disappointing
the ending has no real message because Gross and Druckmann decided it was too hard to write dialogs, so why not make her cry and leave it to the players ?
This is a very cowardy choice. They could have saved the narrative at least with Ellie talking to Abbie, making sense of everything. Ellie is still in her own world, like a psycho who could go back to revenge at any time.
Abby brought a whole team of her militant friends. Joel and Tommy could have been taken down in a well-planned tactical ambush. Instead, Abby succeeds on pure dumb luck and plot armor. Her friends didn't even need to be there and only exist to get killed later on.
You are right on target with your rational surmised my friend, I couldn't have said it better. Because of the overt public opinions of Druckman which are a personal attack of everything I value & believe in I had no choice but to boycott a sequel to a good game I very much enjoyed & bought twice for two console generations, after the early leaks & now detailed reviews I know I did the right thing & have zero regrets.
I completely understand that!
@@joethealternativegamer3935 You summed it up precisely discussing the game's ending, "pretentious & disappointing."
Something the original didn’t feel like
@@joethealternativegamer3935 You did an outstanding job deconstructing the good & bad of this unfortunate sequel, bravo!
You deserve more views and subscribers. Your content are so well-written and very well-delivered. It doesnt dwell on anything irrelevant and trivial that will throw off the point of the video that a lot of content creators blow out of proportion just to make a filler material for their video. Well done man and again, you may not be a game writer but you made a lot of great points in the previous video. I would pay the deluxe edition of the version of TLOU2 based on your story structure and plot.
Thank you so much :)
So sad how this game turn out, it breaks my heart.
Good thing this was bad fan fiction!
If the story had Abby meet ELLIE instead of Joel in the beginning in that snow encounter, this could have gone a much more interesting way while still keeping the theme of questioning whether pursuing revenge is worth it. Make Abby and Ellie allies, then meets Dina or other Jackson residents, then finally Joel, and BOOM, the reveal Joel is the guy who killed her dad creates the conflict in Abby's mind.
main problems i have with this game:
- forced narrative the 'magician behind the curtain' tale of events
- the writers forcing joel to just forget his survival insticts just doesnt do him or the story justice
- i feel people understand joel will meet his death and should but the way it is executed is so important... the way his daughter was 'taken by humanity... so he takes humanitys daughter' (ellie aka the cure) is so beautiful and powerful in the first game and his death just slices that feeling in half with no remorse (its so forced and is just a trigger for a plot).
- lacking chemistry between characters who at alive at present in the game (tommy and ellie maybe the one exception).
- you're never going to sympathise with abby with how they protrayed her, with no bias she was generally a boring character.
i could go on but the devs clearly forgot the key elements to what made the first game probably the best game i've experienced and its depressing to know what this game COULD'VE been.
(edit: im all for risks in games too but if they forget the key to what makes their games masterpieces, they'll plummet)
I know you didn’t mention this but even though Jesse is shallow character I still felt he had more chemistry and connection with Ellie than Dina did - I also hated how they basically used him to father Dina/Ellie’s child then killed him off. Then took the baby from Ellie cause she wasn’t the one to give birth. Maybe if they had let her be pregnant at the time Joel died she would have had to stop & think for a whole til after the birth about whether she should get revenge.