Wanted to pin this post, talked to Dave Wise who does the authentications of cars at Barrett Jackson and he said the VIN was cut off this car at the first Barrett Jackson auction. The car was given as assigned VIN at the time, just wanted to post a correction on the video.
Just curious...what was " cut off " ? The data plates are screwed on and the dashpad tag is riveted in place. Of course the cowl and rad # are stamped into the metal.
@@mrseaweed5587I know someone that had an original late 60's charger, going resto mod with a 360 because he wants reliable modern power. Spending way too much too.
Personally, I don't have a problem with cars that are not authentic as long as they don't try to sell it as authentic. This type of fraud really sucks because it turns people off to the hobby. But, it's great to have people like you to point this stuff out. Buyer beware, make sure you check things out if you are thinking about buying a classic car.
@@rocketresto I completely agree. Especially when it comes to highly detailed clones of rare cars. Because over time it can become passed off as an authentic car. Certain year, make, and models don’t even require fake vins and trim tags. In the early 2000’s when information was harder to obtain a hugger orange copo Camaro clone was listed on a forum. Had the experts, previous owner, and builder not stepped forward the buyer would have got taken. I don’t remember all the details but car was being represented as a possible real copo. However in reality it was a highly detailed clone done in the late 80’s or early 90’s. The individual whom had it built wanted an exact replica. Over time the car’s history became less known as it had passed through several hands. Because of its x number, nos parts, date correct drive line, and warranty replacement engine it was hard to tell if it was real or not.
@@drippinglassdisagree pretty strongly with this. One of our customers just drove his Daytona to Monterrey car week and back! Poured rain the whole way back and it did great.
Mecum recently sold an authentic but unrestored 1970 Hemi Challenger that would normally be worth maybe $150k for $1M through a massive PR campaign that promoted a bogus story about it being a legendary Woodward Avenue street racer back in the day. Caveat Emptor.
Yep the “famous” Black Ghost. They recently took that one apart to fix a few things and it was…not good. Car is super rusty and the engine was really bad inside.
@rocketresto I don't know how anyone could be surprised that the car had rust issues as it was a Detroit area car. You'd have to expect rust if you took it apart and really dug into it.
@@drippinglassThe last owner, who is the son of the original owner, is a would-be film producer and in addition to making a lot of money off of it was trying to get backing for a movie about the car.
The Auction’s are fun, BUT….. many have a head full of booze, and ego and have no idea what they are buying no matter Ford, GM or Mopar. I am an independent inspector/appraiser and attending Mecum 22,23,24 over half the cars I was asked to inspect where either clones, poor restorations or worse rattle can restos with corner stone hardware holding them together. Do your homework folks!!!!!! Great video 👍
Yep it's no different than any of these stupid reality shows that used to come on TV everybody wants to be in auctioneer everybody wants to be A car Guy everybody wants to be a biker everybody wants to be A Street racer type of mentality
Right? LOL so many things wrong with the "evaluations" in this video. First and foremost the RR has no idea what what happening at car companies at this time. Unions, bad management, incompetence, rampant alcoholism, especially amongst management but really throughout the companies. He thinks these companies ran by some kind of Japanese Management System level of operation...nothing could be further from the truth. I happen to be around lots of US car made in the late sixties and early 70's and it was WELL KNOWN that virtually none of these "plates and dates" were accurate. Reported dates of introducing this or that were often wrong by a YEAR. The books reporting on changes were off by MANY MONTHS. The idea that the codes on the stamped plate me exactly this at exactly this point in time is fascicle. Clearly he has never asked a single person, around during those days, the validity of the information. Pure nonsense.
These cars were the cheap used high schools years cars for me. My friends and i all were Mopar only guys. We bought and sold a lot of them. I'm talking early to mid-70s . I could be wrong, but i don't remember the fender tags being screwed on with phillips screws. Your observations are spot on. Good stuff.
Thanks, Tom. Great video. One thing I'd like to mention, too. I'm an old car guy. Mopars are my favorite. Is it just me, or are "Barn Finds" a dime a dozen now? I think this new catchphrase gets buyers' attention. Find an old barn. Reverse your shop vac and cover the car with dust. Let the air out of a couple of tires, and throw a bail of hay on it. Now start video taping! It's amazing how the car has sat for 25 years it cleans up pretty good and starts up the first time.! Just saying!!!!
Anyone can. Metal embossing tools are easily located all over the web. You're asking the wrong question. The REAL question is...on the 2015 auction, it was claimed that this vehicle went through comprehensive restoration in 2007. You can see this at 02:15. So whomever it was listing the car then is making a verifiable claim as to a restoration that was purportedly done merely 8 years previously. Whoever owned the car at that time should be able to provide the shop name, receipts, all that good stuff to document the restoration. This verification seems never to have been done, though it would have, presumably, been quite easy to do whether by the seller, Barrett-Jackson or the buyer at that 2015 auction. Yet this was never done. Nor was it done at the auction in 2019. It is not difficult to conduct these checks. Every time the vehicle changes hands, the title must also change hands and the correct title document filed in the purchaser's state. There should be a chain of such documentation, if it is not fraudulent, going back to the original build sheet and sale to the dealer. So where is it? That is the question that needs to be asked on this vehicle and every other of these high-dollar super-scarce and crazy valuation vehicles. Let's be honest. What the idiot auction buyers THINK they are buying is the provenance. They THINK they are getting a car that looked this way or that way, had whatever engine, decals, options, what have you. And for whatever byzantine reason they have convinced themselves that this matrix of attributes is worth some incredible premium - regardless of the fact that pretty much any of them can be obtained today and slapped on to a junked frame and transformed into the object of their desire. And if the BUYERS are too stupid/ignorant to know the difference, why wouldn't opportunists crash the party and start creating inventory from scratch?
I have a hard time believing all the fake VIN tags. Where is the chain of title on those? Or most importantly, how can you get a title with a fake VIN? In the state I live in, you could get a title but it would be classified as a "reconstructed" vehicle.
I've been dealing with this issue for years. I stumbled on to this back in the early 90s with a fake 70 six pack Cuda. Thing is, technology has allowed it to become so easy to fake. Bottom line...There are more Hemi and six pack cars out there than Mother Mopar ever made. Will it ever end?Who knows.Great video.👍
Not just Mopars either. There are more 1969 Z/28 camaros running around now than were ever made by GM. I'm sure there are more Shelby Cobra Mustangs running around as well. Ditto for 1969 Trans-Ams or any year GTO Judges. SS Badges do not an SS make. R/T badges don't mean it's an R/T. If those badges weren't attached at the factory, then it isn't one.
@@robertr6153 they used to do it with chevelle SS cars, the concours wagons would have a 136 trim tag and they'd put them on a malibu and sell it as an SS
I bought a Challenger T/A (why do people call them T/A Challengers?) back in 1985 for $2800. It had the original paint and engine but no fender tags and a non original transmission. FF decades after I sold it. It has since been restored twice and sold several times at various dealers, the last one stating it had numbers matching trans and it now magically has fender tags. I tracked down the current owner and wrote a nice letter stating the car is real but the trans and tags are not.
some people call Sport Satellite a 'Satellite Sport', if you call them on they'll undermine it in an attempt to deflect it and try to make you feel like you're an idiot for calling them on it, typically they'll say 'same deal' I'm pretty sure the guys in the product development department at Chrysler back in 1968 if they wanted to call it a 'Satellite Sport' they would've. lately I've been seeing a lot of 'Coronet Super Bee' postings, no, duh it's a Polara super bee, doink! Super Bee was another model, like Coronet Deluxe, Super Bee, Coronet 440 etc. that's like calling a RoadRunner a 'Belvedere RoadRunner', so many fucktards in the car biz. the same people who wanted to do me the immense favour of hauling my super bee away for scrap, "we can scrap it for ya man', how white of them , are the same dicks who are now dolling Coronet 440's up as super bees, putting a 440 in them and trying to pawn them off for ridiculous $$$, don't forget the fibreglass lift off 6 pack hood.
Excellent video. I have been into muscle cars for 50 years. When I bought my 1970 Road Runner in 1973 for $1,200 I didn't know what a fender tag was. But in 1973, nobody was making fakes. Corvette fakes have been around since the late 70s to early 80s. Yes, they need to prosecute those making these BS tags. I'm done with muscle cars. The hobby has been ruined.
so true muscle cars , do you really know what you are buying ?? the oh one of ? matcing numbers etc ,id be happy with a sb automatic nice exhaust rims go drive it ,
Ouch, I could never afford a real one but I can only imagine how much of a hit the current owner is going to take if they ever try to sell it. Great video!
IF they paid half price of an original they could sell it for what they paid for it. A lot of people don't care as long as it's what they are looking for.
Thanks for these type of videos. Knowledge such as yours is great to have and you are very generous to share that knowledge so that others may benefit.
I'm glad you do this,so many guy's out there are just trying to make a big dollar on selling cars that we're a limited number produced. I'm in my mid 60's and remember seeing those cars and alot more beautiful cars from the 50's, 60's and 70's and wishing I could afford one. I've also notice guy's buying junk muscle cars and giving big money for them that have the fender tag and vin tag. I wonder how many of those tags get put on a lower model of those cars and sold as numbers matching because of the tags. I've heard that there are more SS Chevelle's out there then GM made.
I've been an auto body/paint man specializing in auto frame work' started in 1975. I've rebuilt over 2000 probably close to 3000 totals in my time and sold back to the public. Back in the early 80's we'd go to salvage sales and buy 10/15 sometimes more if they weren't running the bids up on us. Most were scrapped. 1/2 sometimes 3/4 would be rebuilt depending on damage' model demand and resale value. For example on Toyota/Datsun ven #'s We're on the doors. If we had to replace the drivers door' the inspector would come out and inspect the vehicle and they would issue a new title under that # because of the original door was torn off and not having the vin # to switch over to the replacement door. Several years were interchangeable so you didnt know if we're getting.... for example a 1982 with a 1985 replacement door and the vehicle being sold as an 1985. The fellow I was working for back then was also bad for switching out older vehicle vin #'s for newer ones also switching out odometer panels for lower mileage ones. He was also bad even though having good replacement parts filling body panels roofs/1/4 panels etc full of body filler. You really don't know what you're getting with restos/rebuilds.
I’m surprised no one caught the giveaway of the FM3 and A25 build date. I have a 70 Road Runner. FJ6. Build date 7-10-70. I have copies of the 1970 sales bulletin introducing FM3 and FJ6 in mid January 28th 1970 stating the 2 new colors would be available early February . It’s not Panther Pink . Plymouth is Moulin Rouge.
Thanks for the info. I was a real motor head at that time. My friends dad was a GM at Chrysler dealer and he would take us out for rides in the new stuff. I remember seein g the first one in the valley at my buddies house
This is great content 🙏 I think in my opinions is if your looking for a car, do what i did, look for a base model at least v8 hopefully 727 trans or manual with a 8 3/4 read end. You will spend less money and enjoy it knowing you can just have fun with the dam thing and drive it.
Great job calling out this fake AAR . im sure the 2 guys who paid big money plus all the auction fees would loved to have known this prior to bidding .
I don’t know much about Vin decoding but I do know a little about the law. Both of those auction houses could find themselves in deep hot water if the Vin code had been changed and the title is forged or not matching the cars Vin. If the purchaser brought this to the attention of The FBI…WHEW!
It's like anything counterfeit. Only the very few honest people in the world are willing to lose thousands of dollars by removing the dishonest representation of the car by reporting it. For what? Peace of mind? Plausible deniability (what??? Fake??? I never knew!!) gives them a cover to perpetuate the fraud. These cases are not going to law enforcement, period.
@@billm6819 Mecum sold a car with a forge title or changed Vin, they would be held responsible as they sold the fake/ phonied title car. I think Mecum would pay the winner immediately as in most states The FBI could close the auction house and put many of its executives in jail for a long stretch (if the car was sold to an out of state buyer). If in state, Texas law enforcement would be applicable.
@ That’s very interesting, I’d have to look it up I still believe it’s like a bank robbery- the driver stays in the car and never takes part of the actual robbery but if caught traditionally does the most time of any doing the crime.
Great video! If someone doesn't know all of this information like the back of their hand, no matter how wealthy, they shouldn't be buying cars that are supposed to be museum pieces.
Had a friend 10 years ago buy a 340 Duster . Real 340 block, correct 340 right side exhaust manifold. correct intake carb" Everything including Rally dash with factory tach I walked up to the vin plate and saw a G instead of an H on the motor code . He asked me what I thought ? And told him nice car and walked away . I didn't have the courage to tell him he paid 10k for a fake $
Perspective buyers MUST watch these auction houses like a hawk! Look up the Mecum Las Vegas motorcycle auction of 2024 and look at the fraud that occurred with the vintage Kawasaki 750, if that does not shock you, nothing will.
I saw that. It was jaw dropping. And what a butcher job on grinding off the frame number. You can see someone did a lot of work to make the bike look nice and they totally ruined their own scam with a blatant hack job on the frame #. A real head scratcher.
@@johndillinger8482 I was there at the show and saw the bike along with the seller and a few other guys looking over the bike.... before it went up for auction. None of us choose to check the frame vin #'s since the bike, and it's corresponding display, where so top notch. The seller BTW, looked, spoke, and acted.... totally legit. Had we chose to check/look at the Frame/vin #'s we would have instantly seen the HACK JOB grind marks! A blind man could have seen them! Had we looked, I'm sure we would have been completely shocked and had immediately notified the Mecum brass of this obvious fraud. Had the auction buyer that shelled out $80 grand + for that bike removed that bike from the auction site/ building, he would have been totally phucked! Luckily the fraud was realized before the bike left the building, BUT apparently, the seller had already left the premises and Las Vegas! Be sharp people when at auctions, regardless how "reputable" things appear.
Hell the build numbers and vin would verify its not a factory Pink Panther AAR cuda. The amount of PP AAR's is probably like 5 for that year. Someone said the number a while back. Mr Worman is the only guy I would want touching a car like this. If you do a tribute cool but market it as that. Great work.
Little bit of conclusion jumping that just because they didn’t announce it till February that they couldn’t have had stock built , 15 years working at New car dealers including a Chrysler Dodge dealer and having vehicles built for two months before they arrive was quite common
you are saying thought of , I doubt you are privy to Chryslers inner workings especially in 1969-70 but having worked at One of the largest Chryslers dealers in the east coast for years and prepping all of the New vehicles for 5 years straight including introducing new models such as the PT cruiser the SRT stuff yes they absolutely build stuff two months before it reaches lots they will set in giant parking lots waiting to be shipped at the factories
@@ifindmetal So you're saying it is more likely that Chrysler build an AAR Cuda 4 months before production started or somebody faked a VIN tag? Pretty sure you know my answer. Know they did all sorts of weird stuff but the 1970 AAR Cuda and Challenger T/A are some of the most documented cars on the planet, everything is known about them, also looking at this car it has none of the correct AAR parts on it, it is definitely a fake.
On an e body it is on the cowl and core support, the thing with this thought is they only changed the engine vin, the body numbers are only the last 8 of the vin so if only the engine vin has been changed body numbers would be the same.
Thanks for the info. Things like this make me happy I don't have the money for a car like that, fake or real. I'll stick with my 64 880 and my sons 67 Dart 270. Nobody is going to fake those. LOL
@@noberet you’d have to be crazy paying big $$$ for a “classic” Mopar without a guy like Tom around. Where ever there is be g $$$$ in anything the crooks come out of the woodwork. I remember when junkyards had many old Mopar that were totaled on their lot…now you can’t find 1
I would think in the future this car would be nearly impossible to sell, even with full disclosure, changing the VIN opens you up to interest from some branch of the government.
If the internet was the real world, every Torino had a Boss 429, every LeMons was a GTO, every Chevelle was an SS and every dad's brothers neighbor had some "special order" vehicle.
I listened carefully to your fender tag explanation and double checked and decoded the fender tag on my 1973 Charger SE....and son of gun....turns out its a 1970 AAR Cuda
I thought this was crazy till I decoded the serial number on what I thought was a schwin bicycle after I had dinner, and bam, it's a 71 Hemi Cuda Convertible .... LOLOLOL
Anyone familiar with the specific history of AAR/TA Mopars knows production was all done in 1970. They have VIN numbers well past E-bodies made in 1969. Also....the rad support and cowl VIN stampings are visible when the hood is open. If they match the the title then almost certainly the body was made in 1969. I have seen rad supports swapped...so still possible if done well. What gets me is how auction houses now offer re-bodied cars so long as they disclose that information. For years I was told it was a Federal offense to remove a vin tag and attach it to another vehicle. I've seen several Mecum auctions that included big dollar Mopars with this disclaimer.
This must be the same “AAR” I saw listed on eBay years ago, discussed on one of the Mopar forums. Someone asked about it and I looked at the picture of the tag, and noticed the October build when AARs didn’t start production until late winter of 70 right away. I’ve seen good fakes but on this one it seems whoever built it had no idea of what they were doing.
Auctions attract some great cars...AND some cars with "issues"...that is why the "problem" cars are being auctioned...to create an "insulating layer" between the buyer and seller.
If it were a Camaro, I could tell you everything there is to know about it. But I’m not a Mopar guy. They seem like two very obvious discrepancies that most any Mopar guy should’ve known. They seem to be very uninformed people buying these cars. More money than sense I guess.
Side comment, does anyone know what the background is for the Mecum listing photos of this car? You can find many, many cars in the lot listings from just about every auction over the last few years where cars were photographed at this exact location. They are always listed as a "private no reserve collection"...I'm just curious if this 1 location is 1 MEGA collector/dealer that can send a dozen or 2 cars off for their different auctions around the US?
I've been into muscle cars since I was a teenager, 1973 And there have been so many fake and vin swapped cars constantly being found, There is always some fool around just wringing their hands to buy one of them.
Very informative mopar video,I do like learning about these rare cars. I Wish you had a side by side of a real fender tag to see the difference in the font and spacing 👍
Had a friend who owned a machine shop. Cust brought in his BBC 427 that came out of a 60's Corvette that he'd bought at a big Auction house. Numbers matching car. The motor had proformance upgrades that were a bit to radical for fun street driving, he wanted it de tuned. On disassembly, they found out it was a 396 cid , but the block numbers said it was a 427. They soon discovered the block numbers had been ground off , the new numbers were epoxy and glued to the block. The owner contacted the Auction house, they said it was the first time the seller had used their Auction, all the data they had on him turned out to be fake and there was nothing they could do but put the seller on a do not do business with him list. Becouse it was a numbers matching Corvette, the new owner paid over 10 thousand more than what the true value was. Moral of the story , buyer beware.
i'm an attorney in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and i have a mopar collection. i have also recently been counseling a guy who bought a "fake" 1970 Shelby Mustang KR500. in his case, there is a problem with the title chain and the VIN number on the car. at some point in the history of the car, the VIN was changed or altered. now, this issue is ALWAYS subject to "litigation" no matter where or how the vehicle was sold because altering or changing any part of an original factory VIN number on a vehicle is a Federal Felony subjecting the person responsible to imprisonment up to 5 years and a fine up to $10,000 dollars. as to your featured AAR Cuda, if I were representing the current owner, i would focus on the VIN number issue. as to the "general criminal law" on selling a "fraudulent vehicle", that is always a criminal act which no "civil contract" clause or condition can supersede. notwithstanding ANYTHING listed in the sales contracts of Mecum and/or Barrett-Jackson, if a "crime' was committed regarding any vehicle they sold, they are STILL responsible for the consequences. at the very least, the auction house would have to refund any fees or commissions they made on a "fraudulent vehicle." i ALWAYS advise guys who come to me regarding "collector cars" they are interested in buying to check the VIN and the title and the vehicle itself. several guys who are friends and who go to the same car cruises locally who have talked to me about a car they were interested in did NOT go through with the purchase after they got back to me with "concerning facts" about the title or the VIN. the bottom line - if you are going to spend any "sizable" amount of money to purchase a car, you need to have someone inspect it FIRST and ALSO talk to your lawyer about any concerns BEFORE you send someone a big certified check.
@@jimharvard Does the law differentiate between auction and consignment sales? Does the buyer bare no responsibility in verifying the authenticity of the car?
@@JHKCF all the fifty states have criminal statues regarding "fraud" or "fraud in the inducement" or "deceptive practices" or "theft by deception" along with separate Federal statutes that deal with the same kind of criminal behavior. Alteration of vehicle VIN numbers is also its own statute. there is NO "limitation" of the application of a "criminal" statute so it doesn't matter where the illegal act takes place - i.e. an auction or a consignment - it is still a criminal act. HOWEVER, the majority of criminal acts require "knowledge of" or "desire to" engage in a criminal act. Only a few statutes makes the mere commission of the act, like statutory rape, a crime no matter what the knowledge of the actor was at the time. whether or not a Prosecutor or District Attorney would charge anyone at Mecum or Barrett-Jackson, some other venue, or a private person will turn on what the person "knew" at the time and whether they "intentionally" engaged in activity that they knew was illegal or criminal at the time. i have a case right now where a guy bought a Shelby Mustang KR-500 from a "private auction" where the owner had twenty cars he was selling as an Estate plan. this Mustang has a severe VIN problem in its history in that it either isn't a "real" Shelby or it is a real Shelby but has had another Shelby VIN attached to the body. now, if my guy had taken that car to an auction and sold it not knowing about the VIN issue and the "new" buyer found out about the VIN problem, my guy would have a defense to a criminal charge because he didn't "intentionally" engage in fraud. my guy would still be liable for a civil suit from the new guy to recover damages for the reduced value of the car, but he likely would NOT be charged with a crime. criminal laws apply to auto auctions and that's why they are now hiring "inspectors" to look over high-value cars BEFORE they go across the block. if the auction house can show that they acted "reasonably" and "did all they reasonably could" to inspect the vehicle before it was sold, that will be enough for them not to be criminally charged. the general test for whether you are going to jail for something you did is: "what did you know and when did you know it."
@@jimharvard Jim I greatly appreciate you taking the time to educate me on the legal aspects of these deceptive sales. I just can’t wrap my head around the buyer under no circumstances would be to blame for his own lack of verification on high dollar collectible cars. Just to take it to the extreme, if someone tried to sell me a Hyundai Sonata for $1million and told me it was an original Shelby Cobra, seems like that’s my problem for believing him. I don’t mean to be argumentative. Just trying to make it make sense. Thanks again!!! 😃
@@JHKCF hi, note again what i explained. whether or not a person is going to get charged with a crime is dependent upon what that person DID. if a person "legitimately" did not know about a problem with a car when they sold it, THAT person is not likely to be charged. why? because the "guilt" requirement for being convicted of a crime in the U.S. is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt." if there is "any" "reasonable doubt" that the person did not commit the crime or did not have the "motivation" to commit the crime, that person will almost always be found "not guilty" or not have charges brought in the first place. HOWEVER, if the "evidence" shows that actor "actually knew" or "reasonably should have known" that something they were doing was a crime, that person will be charged and "probably" will be convicted. what does "beyond a reasonable doubt" mean? it means that a "reasonable" or "average" person would not have done what the subject person did. OR - it means that a "reasonable" or "average" person would come to the same conclusion about the event or behavior or evidence that the Prosecutor has advanced. as to your example of a buyer "being just stupid", yes, there is a term for that which is "caveat emptor" which is Latin for "the buyer beware." that is the basis for the "as is" sales. but again, "let the buyer beware" only pertains to "legal" matters - NOT things that were inherently "illegal." so if you buy a 70 Boss 302 and two weeks after you bought it, the engine blows up, that is a "let the buyer beware" or a purchase "as is" and the new engine will be the new owner's problem. however, suppose the seller gave the buyer completely made up or fabricated "paperwork" showing that the engine had been fully rebuilt and was "brand new" and the buyer "relied" upon those documents in deciding to purchase the car. if the documents were in fact "false", that would be a crime of either "theft by deception" or "fraud in the inducement" or just "fraud" depending on the state where the act took place. the test for "criminality" is pretty simple. if a person buys a car with a correct VIN, a legal title and no "actual" falsification of any detail - but the car is worn out or rusty and the running condition and/or body condition was just not inspected by the buyer - there is no crime. but if a seller "actively" and "intentionally" falsified an important aspect of the car without telling the buyer about that issue/problem, THAT might be a crime and even if it wasn't a "crime", it still would form the basis of a civil suit for damages against the seller.
In 2018, I went to a regional Mopar show here in NC. I saw a typical "Mopar dream car," a 1970 Challenger convertible in FC7 with a white interior. The hood was up to show off its 440. As I looked down at the 440, I saw from the plate that it had started life as a 318 car in EF8. I then suddenly walked away because I had lost all interest.
G'day Tom, Thank you for your reply yes the Gran Coupe Emblem thats the one. BTW if you can google what i believe is the best looking Mopar Hardtop ever made even better than the USA built. Aussie designed & build. 1972 Chrysler by Chrysler CH Hardtop. Extremely rare finally document one that has been in a barn since 1983. After 15 years I finally pictured it & documented it. Genuine numbers matching 360. Great story behind it. Fingers crossed regarding the emblem. Cheers Louis Kats from Melbourne, Australia 🇦🇺
I love that idea - why not a smoke belching rough running Vega! Maybe you can quit your day job. I am amazed at how many SS vehicles there are out there for sale.
My 70 340 swinger has the Vin, door sticker, 2 build sheets, and the body vin on the trunk gutter. I am just missing the Febder tag. If I got a reproduction tag, is that a wise idea?
I’m not saying this car isn’t a fake but there’s cars out there that had been specially built (unique colors or parts) prior to being available in production. My moms camaro was midnight blue and it was painted 6 months prior to a standard production option and several were built and sent to dealers for their showrooms . Some dealers had office connections and they received cars pre production. Not many, but it did occur.
Mopar put specific serial numbers in different locations on their vehicles. That particular Cuda should have the matching VIN stamped into the radiator core support, the cowl just above the engine bay, & in the drip rail of the trunk's quarter panel. These numbers SHOULD match the actual VIN on the dash. The fender tag has all of the options & serial number for that vehicle PLUS a special fender tag that just says TRANS AM. The engine block has TA cast in it & I believe the heads have that also PLUS unlike any other small block Mopar head, the rockers are not straight on the shafts. The exhaust rocker is slightly bent to allow for extra porting for racing. Last, but not least, there's the actual build sheet that goes to that specific vehicle usually found in the springs under a seat. All of that determines an actual AAR vs a fake, clone, or tribute.
@roywhitman7109 mostly true. Heads do NOT have TA cast in them. They look just like any lickadick '70 340 head. Interestinly enough, they have the number, "360", cast into the intake runner. They are ONLY drilled differently on the intake pushrod clearance hole. Also, only the intake rockers were dramatically different(than regular mechanical 273 rockers), except the adjusters were NOT self locking.
can you imagine how much money the car companys could make if they reissued their most popular classic designs. like fender and Gibson do with guitars.
It’s certainly to Mecum’s and Barrett Jackson’s advantage to turn a blind eye to whether it’s original or a clone considering the percentage they receive from the sale.
@mrlawn007 these cars were built in Hamtramck. I've been told by "R/T" McDaniel, who worked there in the offices, that you were risking getting mugged down on the assembly line. A lot of the workers were high on weed, at the least.
The guy in this video doing the talking is the real actual original guy. You can tell by the way he over pronounces his t’s and c’s. They are very sharp and crisp with the edges turned up very abruptly at the tailing edge of the tone when it comes out of his mouth. Pay attention. These are important ques to follow in these kinds of situations. First Epstein and Diddy, now this. Wow.
There’s a paperwork trail leading back to who built the car. I’m sure they built it specifically to build a fake car and pass it off to an unsuspecting buyer. I’m also willing to bet that atleast 1 or 2 of the owners that had the car after they bought it had a friend go over the car and found it to be a fake and the owner offloaded it as fast as they could at the auction
Mod top.interior on previous page... kinda neat. So if it has been cloned properly with all the right parts and is and older restoration with non numbers matching engine is it worth much less that than an real one with non numbers matching engine? I'm not a collector but if I was is it in as built state and or as used meaning parts were replaced along the way with vintage OE as needed has value. If I want a restored one I would want to do have it done to my liking but understand that given the rarity of the AAR that could be a challenge
I am all about everyone building a car any way they want it to be (including “tribute cars”). What isn’t ok is doing so just to pass it off as something rare and valuable to elicit a monitory value that isn’t really there. Now, I have neither the income or the fascination to be investing in the “big money” muscle Mopars, so the fact that all that remained of my lowly ‘64 Barracuda’s body tag were a couple of “lace edged” washers under the two screws doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I will totally build it my own way but also I would not ever try to pass it off as anything else. In a way, it is sad that these cars have gained so much value over the years that building “faux” rare cars for a better payday has become a reality. I suppose it all boils down to buyer beware, which is always a sad aspect of life. The irony is that, even though it would not have brought the insane money of an original AAR, people would still love to own it and a few would still be willing to grossly overpay for it (especially in a high end auction situation) even if it was properly represented and sold as a “tribute car”. If properly represented when sold and bought for reasonable money … and as long as the restoration quality was good … nobody would complain that it was a fake! Fortunately for me, I have no worries of getting stuck with any fake diamonds or fake low production muscle cars! Now, its back to scraping the surface rust off the underside of my ‘64.
Odd that these trans am series 'cudas could have automatic transmissions and decor items like wheel lip mouldings, and not be all 4 speed cars with no body ornamentation like B302s
I dunno. I doubt many, if any, were built for a specific customer order. When I 'ordered' mine, they were already built. I just specified what I had to have for options, what I would prefer to have for options, and what I didn't want for options. The dealer just tried to come up with the best match. I never even specified what color I wanted, because I didn't care what color it was. Perhaps it might be interesting to others, but mine was an automatic, with wheel lip moldings. Mine is a 3-tag car, also.
they need to do what big car shows did years ago I was called in to judge chevelles i looked for chevelles with small fuel lines being pushed as an ss certain markings and nuts and bolts specially used on an ss and copo cars . they need to ante up and hire a guy "pay" him /her to certify the cars !
Wanted to pin this post, talked to Dave Wise who does the authentications of cars at Barrett Jackson and he said the VIN was cut off this car at the first Barrett Jackson auction. The car was given as assigned VIN at the time, just wanted to post a correction on the video.
Just curious...what was " cut off " ? The data plates are screwed on and the dashpad tag is riveted in place.
Of course the cowl and rad # are stamped into the metal.
@@MichaelDozier-j1b the fake VIN tag off the dash.
@@rocketresto Makes sense..thx Tom
"Mecum" and "Barrett Jackson" have pushed the cost of owning these cars beyond a working person's ability to buy one.
Not really..just get out there and find one. Time and resources, but keep your eyes out and network.
Yeah, I have an old harley that loud and belches noxious fumes. Close enough to a classic car for me.
@@mrseaweed5587I know someone that had an original late 60's charger, going resto mod with a 360 because he wants reliable modern power. Spending way too much too.
Working people buy real estate. They don't buy poor frivolous follys.
Personally, I don't have a problem with cars that are not authentic as long as they don't try to sell it as authentic. This type of fraud really sucks because it turns people off to the hobby. But, it's great to have people like you to point this stuff out. Buyer beware, make sure you check things out if you are thinking about buying a classic car.
Don’t disagree but all fake cars become real over time.
@@rocketresto I completely agree. Especially when it comes to highly detailed clones of rare cars. Because over time it can become passed off as an authentic car. Certain year, make, and models don’t even require fake vins and trim tags. In the early 2000’s when information was harder to obtain a hugger orange copo Camaro clone was listed on a forum. Had the experts, previous owner, and builder not stepped forward the buyer would have got taken. I don’t remember all the details but car was being represented as a possible real copo. However in reality it was a highly detailed clone done in the late 80’s or early 90’s. The individual whom had it built wanted an exact replica. Over time the car’s history became less known as it had passed through several hands. Because of its x number, nos parts, date correct drive line, and warranty replacement engine it was hard to tell if it was real or not.
The “hobby” has become a bunch of rich guys trading back and forth. None of the “real” cars will ever be driven much, if at all.
Thanks for the info
@@drippinglassdisagree pretty strongly with this. One of our customers just drove his Daytona to Monterrey car week and back! Poured rain the whole way back and it did great.
Mecum recently sold an authentic but unrestored 1970 Hemi Challenger that would normally be worth maybe $150k for $1M through a massive PR campaign that promoted a bogus story about it being a legendary Woodward Avenue street racer back in the day. Caveat Emptor.
Yep the “famous” Black Ghost. They recently took that one apart to fix a few things and it was…not good. Car is super rusty and the engine was really bad inside.
I was at that auction, the added bonuses were the rust holes in the quarters and the trailer hitch.
@rocketresto I don't know how anyone could be surprised that the car had rust issues as it was a Detroit area car.
You'd have to expect rust if you took it apart and really dug into it.
Just a made up story. And a recent story at that.
@@drippinglassThe last owner, who is the son of the original owner, is a would-be film producer and in addition to making a lot of money off of it was trying to get backing for a movie about the car.
The Auction’s are fun, BUT….. many have a head full of booze, and ego and have no idea what they are buying no matter Ford, GM or Mopar. I am an independent inspector/appraiser and attending Mecum 22,23,24 over half the cars I was asked to inspect where either clones, poor restorations or worse rattle can restos with corner stone hardware holding them together. Do your homework folks!!!!!! Great video 👍
Yep it's no different than any of these stupid reality shows that used to come on TV everybody wants to be in auctioneer everybody wants to be A car Guy everybody wants to be a biker everybody wants to be A Street racer type of mentality
Right? LOL so many things wrong with the "evaluations" in this video. First and foremost the RR has no idea what what happening at car companies at this time. Unions, bad management, incompetence, rampant alcoholism, especially amongst management but really throughout the companies. He thinks these companies ran by some kind of Japanese Management System level of operation...nothing could be further from the truth. I happen to be around lots of US car made in the late sixties and early 70's and it was WELL KNOWN that virtually none of these "plates and dates" were accurate. Reported dates of introducing this or that were often wrong by a YEAR. The books reporting on changes were off by MANY MONTHS. The idea that the codes on the stamped plate me exactly this at exactly this point in time is fascicle. Clearly he has never asked a single person, around during those days, the validity of the information. Pure nonsense.
These cars were the cheap used high schools years cars for me. My friends and i all were Mopar only guys. We bought and sold a lot of them. I'm talking early to mid-70s . I could be wrong, but i don't remember the fender tags being screwed on with phillips screws. Your observations are spot on. Good stuff.
They were phillips.
Some were rivets , I don’t remember which assembly plant did that .
If they were rivets, they weren’t installed by the factory.
Phillips. I had 4 all were screwed with phillips
Thanks, Tom. Great video. One thing I'd like to mention, too. I'm an old car guy. Mopars are my favorite. Is it just me, or are "Barn Finds" a dime a dozen now? I think this new catchphrase gets buyers' attention. Find an old barn. Reverse your shop vac and cover the car with dust. Let the air out of a couple of tires, and throw a bail of hay on it. Now start video taping!
It's amazing how the car has sat for 25 years it cleans up pretty good and starts up the first time.! Just saying!!!!
The bigger question here is who is making the fake VIN tags? Fake fender tags have been around for years, but fake VIN's are much more serious.
Anyone can. Metal embossing tools are easily located all over the web. You're asking the wrong question. The REAL question is...on the 2015 auction, it was claimed that this vehicle went through comprehensive restoration in 2007. You can see this at 02:15. So whomever it was listing the car then is making a verifiable claim as to a restoration that was purportedly done merely 8 years previously. Whoever owned the car at that time should be able to provide the shop name, receipts, all that good stuff to document the restoration. This verification seems never to have been done, though it would have, presumably, been quite easy to do whether by the seller, Barrett-Jackson or the buyer at that 2015 auction. Yet this was never done. Nor was it done at the auction in 2019. It is not difficult to conduct these checks. Every time the vehicle changes hands, the title must also change hands and the correct title document filed in the purchaser's state. There should be a chain of such documentation, if it is not fraudulent, going back to the original build sheet and sale to the dealer. So where is it? That is the question that needs to be asked on this vehicle and every other of these high-dollar super-scarce and crazy valuation vehicles.
Let's be honest. What the idiot auction buyers THINK they are buying is the provenance. They THINK they are getting a car that looked this way or that way, had whatever engine, decals, options, what have you. And for whatever byzantine reason they have convinced themselves that this matrix of attributes is worth some incredible premium - regardless of the fact that pretty much any of them can be obtained today and slapped on to a junked frame and transformed into the object of their desire. And if the BUYERS are too stupid/ignorant to know the difference, why wouldn't opportunists crash the party and start creating inventory from scratch?
@@musclecarczarig4003 there stolen out factories and bulid plants run $100-$1.000 per blank vin
These are 50 year old cars. The government can give a rat’s ass if these are “real” or not. They really do not care…..😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
China.
I have a hard time believing all the fake VIN tags. Where is the chain of title on those? Or most importantly, how can you get a title with a fake VIN? In the state I live in, you could get a title but it would be classified as a "reconstructed" vehicle.
I've been dealing with this issue for years. I stumbled on to this back in the early 90s with a fake 70 six pack Cuda. Thing is, technology has allowed it to become so easy to fake. Bottom line...There are more Hemi and six pack cars out there than Mother Mopar ever made. Will it ever end?Who knows.Great video.👍
Not just Mopars either. There are more 1969 Z/28 camaros running around now than were ever made by GM. I'm sure there are more Shelby Cobra Mustangs running around as well. Ditto for 1969 Trans-Ams or any year GTO Judges.
SS Badges do not an SS make. R/T badges don't mean it's an R/T. If those badges weren't attached at the factory, then it isn't one.
@robertr6153 I totally agree
@@robertr6153 they used to do it with chevelle SS cars, the concours wagons would have a 136 trim tag and they'd put them on a malibu and sell it as an SS
There are more Corvettes registered than were ever produced
And they all come with a genuine 1959 Gibson sunburst Les Paul
Thanks for the video . I watch Uncle Tony and Kiwis channel what scammers car flippers are doing is criminal .
Tom, I've personally seen the pilot AAR Cuda. Build date February 3 1970. Have pics of it. Been sitting outside for 30 years.
I really like your 'debunked' videos. You know your stuff, Tom - thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching!
I bought a Challenger T/A (why do people call them T/A Challengers?) back in 1985 for $2800. It had the original paint and engine but no fender tags and a non original transmission. FF decades after I sold it. It has since been restored twice and sold several times at various dealers, the last one stating it had numbers matching trans and it now magically has fender tags. I tracked down the current owner and wrote a nice letter stating the car is real but the trans and tags are not.
Guarantee you the owner doesn’t care and is probably the one who “found” the info.
some people call Sport Satellite a 'Satellite Sport', if you call them on they'll undermine it in an attempt to deflect it and try to make you feel like you're an idiot for calling them on it, typically they'll say 'same deal' I'm pretty sure the guys in the product development department at Chrysler back in 1968 if they wanted to call it a 'Satellite Sport' they would've. lately I've been seeing a lot of 'Coronet Super Bee' postings, no, duh it's a Polara super bee, doink! Super Bee was another model, like Coronet Deluxe, Super Bee, Coronet 440 etc. that's like calling a RoadRunner a 'Belvedere RoadRunner', so many fucktards in the car biz. the same people who wanted to do me the immense favour of hauling my super bee away for scrap, "we can scrap it for ya man', how white of them , are the same dicks who are now dolling Coronet 440's up as super bees, putting a 440 in them and trying to pawn them off for ridiculous $$$, don't forget the fibreglass lift off 6 pack hood.
Excellent video. I have been into muscle cars for 50 years. When I bought my 1970 Road Runner in 1973 for $1,200 I didn't know what a fender tag was. But in 1973, nobody was making fakes. Corvette fakes have been around since the late 70s to early 80s. Yes, they need to prosecute those making these BS tags. I'm done with muscle cars. The hobby has been ruined.
so true muscle cars , do you really know what you are buying ?? the oh one of ? matcing numbers etc ,id be happy with a sb automatic nice exhaust rims go drive it ,
Fake tags get complicated when a resto tag can have fake info on it or what was on it.
Ouch, I could never afford a real one but I can only imagine how much of a hit the current owner is going to take if they ever try to sell it. Great video!
IF they paid half price of an original they could sell it for what they paid for it. A lot of people don't care as long as it's what they are looking for.
That's one of the best things about restomods, they are not trying to be something they are not.
Restomods are great, when they don't change the VIN.
Thanks Tom for breaking this info down and busting another fake. The information needs to get out there !
The fact it was an Auto would be enough to keep me away. Great video.
Thanks for these type of videos. Knowledge such as yours is great to have and you are very generous to share that knowledge so that others may benefit.
I'm glad you do this,so many guy's out there are just trying to make a big dollar on selling cars that we're a limited number produced. I'm in my mid 60's and remember seeing those cars and alot more beautiful cars from the 50's, 60's and 70's and wishing I could afford one. I've also notice guy's buying junk muscle cars and giving big money for them that have the fender tag and vin tag. I wonder how many of those tags get put on a lower model of those cars and sold as numbers matching because of the tags. I've heard that there are more SS Chevelle's out there then GM made.
No way to know but a lot of fakes out there.
I've been an auto body/paint man specializing in auto frame work' started in 1975.
I've rebuilt over 2000 probably close to 3000
totals in my time and sold back to the public.
Back in the early 80's we'd go to salvage sales and buy 10/15 sometimes more if they weren't running the bids up on us.
Most were scrapped.
1/2 sometimes 3/4 would be rebuilt depending on damage' model demand and resale value.
For example on Toyota/Datsun ven #'s
We're on the doors.
If we had to replace the drivers door' the inspector would come out and inspect the vehicle and they would issue a new title under that # because of the original door was torn off and not having the vin # to switch over to the replacement door.
Several years were interchangeable so you didnt know if we're getting.... for example a 1982 with a 1985 replacement door and the vehicle being sold as an 1985.
The fellow I was working for back then was also bad for switching out older vehicle vin #'s for newer ones also switching out odometer panels for lower mileage ones.
He was also bad even though having good replacement parts filling body panels
roofs/1/4 panels etc full of body filler.
You really don't know what you're getting with restos/rebuilds.
I Love these videos, Tom! Knowledge is power, and I think this knowledge should be available to everyone. Thanks for feeding us your knowledge!
I’m surprised no one caught the giveaway of the FM3 and A25 build date.
I have a 70 Road Runner. FJ6. Build date 7-10-70.
I have copies of the 1970 sales bulletin introducing FM3 and FJ6 in mid January 28th 1970 stating the 2 new colors would be available early February .
It’s not Panther Pink . Plymouth is Moulin Rouge.
It is a pretty obvious mistake.
Thanks for sharing the knowledge Tom 👍
Too much money involved for there to not be fraud in the game.
Another excellent and informative video. Great work, Tom!
Great info! Keep busting the fakes!! My Aunt Jean worked at Dodge Main.
Thanks for the info. I was a real motor head at that time. My friends dad was a GM at Chrysler dealer and he would take us out for rides in the new stuff. I remember seein g the first one in the valley at my buddies house
This is why I like base model cars. You'll never pay for a fake one and you can still make it the way you want it.
You aren’t wrong
me 318 ,360 auto a/c/ nice rims, duals can go drive
This is great content 🙏 I think in my opinions is if your looking for a car, do what i did, look for a base model at least v8 hopefully 727 trans or manual with a 8 3/4 read end. You will spend less money and enjoy it knowing you can just have fun with the dam thing and drive it.
Totally
Great job calling out this fake AAR . im sure the 2 guys who paid big money plus all the auction fees would loved to have known this prior to bidding .
If u bid in person or have a Mopar decode person double check pay the money do your homework 😮
@ those are options for sure but its tough when VIN and fender tag are fakes .
Well the first guy got all his money out, so I'm sure he doesn't much care.
I don’t know much about Vin decoding but I do know a little about the law. Both of those auction houses could find themselves in deep hot water if the Vin code had been changed and the title is forged or not matching the cars Vin. If the purchaser brought this to the attention of The FBI…WHEW!
It's like anything counterfeit. Only the very few honest people in the world are willing to lose thousands of dollars by removing the dishonest representation of the car by reporting it. For what? Peace of mind? Plausible deniability (what??? Fake??? I never knew!!) gives them a cover to perpetuate the fraud. These cases are not going to law enforcement, period.
@ It depends. Does the auction house transfer the title and money for the car or is this done by seller and purchaser?
@@Bradydog-in7utBought a car at a Mecum auction. Mecum handled the cash but the title came from the seller.
@@billm6819 Mecum sold a car with a forge title or changed Vin, they would be held responsible as they sold the fake/ phonied title car. I think Mecum would pay the winner immediately as in most states The FBI could close the auction house and put many of its executives in jail for a long stretch (if the car was sold to an out of state buyer). If in state, Texas law enforcement would be applicable.
@ That’s very interesting, I’d have to look it up I still believe it’s like a bank robbery- the driver stays in the car and never takes part of the actual robbery but if caught traditionally does the most time of any doing the crime.
Great video! If someone doesn't know all of this information like the back of their hand, no matter how wealthy, they shouldn't be buying cars that are supposed to be museum pieces.
Had a friend 10 years ago buy a 340 Duster . Real 340 block, correct 340 right side exhaust manifold. correct intake carb" Everything including
Rally dash with factory tach
I walked up to the vin plate and saw a G instead of an H on the motor code . He asked me what I thought ? And told him nice car and walked away . I didn't have the courage to tell him he paid 10k for a fake $
I wouldn't go so far to say that the car shouldn't be allowed on the road.
It's still a great looking car, even if it's not completely authentic.
If the vin was cut off the car and a state assigned vin attached would be fine to be on the road.
Perspective buyers MUST watch these auction houses like a hawk! Look up the Mecum Las Vegas motorcycle auction of 2024 and look at the fraud that occurred with the vintage Kawasaki 750, if that does not shock you, nothing will.
I saw that. It was jaw dropping.
And what a butcher job on grinding off the frame number. You can see someone did a lot of work to make the bike look nice and they totally ruined their own scam with a blatant hack job on the frame #. A real head scratcher.
mecum paid that guy to remove the youtube video about that Rickman Kawasaki
@@johndillinger8482 I was there at the show and saw the bike along with the seller and a few other guys looking over the bike.... before it went up for auction. None of us choose to check the frame vin #'s since the bike, and it's corresponding display, where so top notch. The seller BTW, looked, spoke, and acted.... totally legit. Had we chose to check/look at the Frame/vin #'s we would have instantly seen the HACK JOB grind marks! A blind man could have seen them! Had we looked, I'm sure we would have been completely shocked and had immediately notified the Mecum brass of this obvious fraud. Had the auction buyer that shelled out $80 grand + for that bike removed that bike from the auction site/ building, he would have been totally phucked! Luckily the fraud was realized before the bike left the building, BUT apparently, the seller had already left the premises and Las Vegas! Be sharp people when at auctions, regardless how "reputable" things appear.
It's sad that fakery happened.
Unfortunately, there's probably plenty more out there.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Tom.
Hell the build numbers and vin would verify its not a factory Pink Panther AAR cuda. The amount of PP AAR's is probably like 5 for that year. Someone said the number a while back. Mr Worman is the only guy I would want touching a car like this. If you do a tribute cool but market it as that. Great work.
Little bit of conclusion jumping that just because they didn’t announce it till February that they couldn’t have had stock built , 15 years working at New car dealers including a Chrysler Dodge dealer and having vehicles built for two months before they arrive was quite common
So you’re telling me they built a car four months before the car was even thought of or announced? Please tell me you’re joking.
you are saying thought of , I doubt you are privy to Chryslers inner workings especially in 1969-70 but having worked at One of the largest Chryslers dealers in the east coast for years and prepping all of the New vehicles for 5 years straight including introducing new models such as the PT cruiser the SRT stuff yes they absolutely build stuff two months before it reaches lots they will set in giant parking lots waiting to be shipped at the factories
@@ifindmetal So you're saying it is more likely that Chrysler build an AAR Cuda 4 months before production started or somebody faked a VIN tag? Pretty sure you know my answer. Know they did all sorts of weird stuff but the 1970 AAR Cuda and Challenger T/A are some of the most documented cars on the planet, everything is known about them, also looking at this car it has none of the correct AAR parts on it, it is definitely a fake.
@ I didn’t say it wasn’t fake but I like how you keep adding time to support your theory’s though 👍
Receipts buddy…both my posts say 4 months. Fake car built in October, AAR cuda not introduced until Feb. 4 months.
Isn’t the vin also stamped under the trunk weather striping and other places including the obvious tag on the dash?
On an e body it is on the cowl and core support, the thing with this thought is they only changed the engine vin, the body numbers are only the last 8 of the vin so if only the engine vin has been changed body numbers would be the same.
I need you when I find my 67 Chevy Impala SS, 327 turbofire, 4 speed fastback with factory 8 track! You Kick Ass! Thanks I really enjoyed your video!
With the money they want for these cars anymore, we need this information. Thanks 😊
know how to decode the finder tags , ask for the broadcast sheet and the original window sticker is gold
Unfortunately all of those things can be faked as well. And the people making them are only getting better at it.
@@bigmikeyz0071 just buy a small block car adds some rims ice cold a/c sweet sound dual exhaust go drive it
I hate liars with a passion !
@@terryoquinn8199 bet a lot of shady business in the resale ,or flipping muscle classic cars at actions
Thanks for the info. Things like this make me happy I don't have the money for a car like that, fake or real. I'll stick with my 64 880 and my sons 67 Dart 270. Nobody is going to fake those. LOL
Does make it safer waters to swim in 😂
Indeed, knowledge is power. Thanks Tom!
@@noberet you’d have to be crazy paying big $$$ for a “classic” Mopar without a guy like Tom around. Where ever there is be g $$$$ in anything the crooks come out of the woodwork. I remember when junkyards had many old Mopar that were totaled on their lot…now you can’t find 1
Just wish some places would do some basic vetting of cars, Barrett does this now with Dave Wise on board.
@@rocketresto 👍
I would think in the future this car would be nearly impossible to sell, even with full disclosure, changing the VIN opens you up to interest from some branch of the government.
I wouldn’t touch this car with a 10 foot pole.
Thanks, as always, for sharing ypur experience and knowledge,
Thanks for watching!
Man. You have a lot of knowledge. Thank you.
If the internet was the real world, every Torino had a Boss 429, every LeMons was a GTO, every Chevelle was an SS and every dad's brothers neighbor had some "special order" vehicle.
Every charger becomes an rt over time.
Knowledge is power, can one send you photos and still get this help? My Uncle always says it is fake until you prove it is not. Great info thanks.
Sure
Talk with Nick, from Nick's Garage in Canada. He's restored AAR Cudas. His TH-cam channel is Nick's Garage. He knows his stuff.
Nick knows motors and all things mech he's the 1st to tell you he's not a "numbers" guy so no help there.
Wealth of knowledge thanks for the info !
I listened carefully to your fender tag explanation and double checked and decoded the fender tag on my 1973 Charger SE....and son of gun....turns out its a 1970 AAR Cuda
😂
😂😂🤣🤣
I thought this was crazy till I decoded the serial number on what I thought was a schwin bicycle after I had dinner, and bam, it's a 71 Hemi Cuda Convertible .... LOLOLOL
I caught a fish once, but the fin tag said it was a walleye and not a Barracuda.
Don't bid on anything you don't know about
Excellent.... knowledge is power
I'm glad i own a mongrel 72 Charger. The vin tag isn't even close to what it is now.
Anyone familiar with the specific history of AAR/TA Mopars knows production was all done in 1970.
They have VIN numbers well past E-bodies made in 1969. Also....the rad support and cowl VIN stampings are visible when the hood is open.
If they match the the title then almost certainly the body was made in 1969. I have seen rad supports swapped...so still possible if done well.
What gets me is how auction houses now offer re-bodied cars so long as they disclose that information.
For years I was told it was a Federal offense to remove a vin tag and attach it to another vehicle.
I've seen several Mecum auctions that included big dollar Mopars with this disclaimer.
Back in the day, people would buy totally clapped out, unrestorable autos just to get the tags. Thank you, Tom.
Still happens
More great info from Tom
Knowledge is power ,, Thank you SiR
This must be the same “AAR” I saw listed on eBay years ago, discussed on one of the Mopar forums. Someone asked about it and I looked at the picture of the tag, and noticed the October build when AARs didn’t start production until late winter of 70 right away. I’ve seen good fakes but on this one it seems whoever built it had no idea of what they were doing.
Prob same car.
Auctions attract some great cars...AND some cars with "issues"...that is why the "problem" cars are being auctioned...to create an "insulating layer" between the buyer and seller.
If it were a Camaro, I could tell you everything there is to know about it. But I’m not a Mopar guy. They seem like two very obvious discrepancies that most any Mopar guy should’ve known. They seem to be very uninformed people buying these cars. More money than sense I guess.
The vast majority of people buying at auctions have no idea what they are buying, this is a great example.
Side comment, does anyone know what the background is for the Mecum listing photos of this car? You can find many, many cars in the lot listings from just about every auction over the last few years where cars were photographed at this exact location. They are always listed as a "private no reserve collection"...I'm just curious if this 1 location is 1 MEGA collector/dealer that can send a dozen or 2 cars off for their different auctions around the US?
Mecum often buys collections (or at their own auctions) to resell. Don’t “know” this but guessing that is probably the case here.
I've been into muscle cars since I was a teenager, 1973
And there have been so many fake and vin swapped cars constantly being found,
There is always some fool around just wringing their hands to buy one of them.
Very informative mopar video,I do like learning about these rare cars. I Wish you had a side by side of a real fender tag to see the difference in the font and spacing 👍
I’ll do that next time good suggestion.
Had a friend who owned a machine shop. Cust brought in his BBC 427 that came out of a 60's Corvette that he'd bought at a big Auction house. Numbers matching car. The motor had proformance upgrades that were a bit to radical for fun street driving, he wanted it de tuned.
On disassembly, they found out it was a 396 cid , but the block numbers said it was a 427. They soon discovered the block numbers had been ground off , the new numbers were epoxy and glued to the block. The owner contacted the Auction house, they said it was the first time the seller had used their Auction, all the data they had on him turned out to be fake and there was nothing they could do but put the seller on a do not do business with him list. Becouse it was a numbers matching Corvette, the new owner paid over 10 thousand more than what the true value was.
Moral of the story , buyer beware.
Do you know where I can find a 72 polara sedan? I’m searching for one.
You watch our video from last weekend about the 1,000 cars about to be crushed. 72 cop car in there that we are trying to get.
Question…. Do you think there is still a lot of second generation chargers just sitting in junkyards.
I think most have been found but saying that I got one out of a yard in Montana this year.
The best part of the Barrett-Jackson auction are the private cars in the parking lot and at nearby shopping centers.
What did it sell for.
First time was $152k 🤯, second time was $55k at Mecum.
So what did the fake Cuda sell for at the auctions?
$125k at BJ then $50k at mecum
i'm an attorney in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and i have a mopar collection. i have also recently been counseling a guy who bought a "fake" 1970 Shelby Mustang KR500. in his case, there is a problem with the title chain and the VIN number on the car. at some point in the history of the car, the VIN was changed or altered. now, this issue is ALWAYS subject to "litigation" no matter where or how the vehicle was sold because altering or changing any part of an original factory VIN number on a vehicle is a Federal Felony subjecting the person responsible to imprisonment up to 5 years and a fine up to $10,000 dollars. as to your featured AAR Cuda, if I were representing the current owner, i would focus on the VIN number issue. as to the "general criminal law" on selling a "fraudulent vehicle", that is always a criminal act which no "civil contract" clause or condition can supersede. notwithstanding ANYTHING listed in the sales contracts of Mecum and/or Barrett-Jackson, if a "crime' was committed regarding any vehicle they sold, they are STILL responsible for the consequences. at the very least, the auction house would have to refund any fees or commissions they made on a "fraudulent vehicle." i ALWAYS advise guys who come to me regarding "collector cars" they are interested in buying to check the VIN and the title and the vehicle itself. several guys who are friends and who go to the same car cruises locally who have talked to me about a car they were interested in did NOT go through with the purchase after they got back to me with "concerning facts" about the title or the VIN. the bottom line - if you are going to spend any "sizable" amount of money to purchase a car, you need to have someone inspect it FIRST and ALSO talk to your lawyer about any concerns BEFORE you send someone a big certified check.
Thank you so much for that very thorough explanation. You have to be careful with a big purchase like this. Altering vins is a big no no.
@@jimharvard Does the law differentiate between auction and consignment sales? Does the buyer bare no responsibility in verifying the authenticity of the car?
@@JHKCF all the fifty states have criminal statues regarding "fraud" or "fraud in the inducement" or "deceptive practices" or "theft by deception" along with separate Federal statutes that deal with the same kind of criminal behavior. Alteration of vehicle VIN numbers is also its own statute. there is NO "limitation" of the application of a "criminal" statute so it doesn't matter where the illegal act takes place - i.e. an auction or a consignment - it is still a criminal act. HOWEVER, the majority of criminal acts require "knowledge of" or "desire to" engage in a criminal act. Only a few statutes makes the mere commission of the act, like statutory rape, a crime no matter what the knowledge of the actor was at the time. whether or not a Prosecutor or District Attorney would charge anyone at Mecum or Barrett-Jackson, some other venue, or a private person will turn on what the person "knew" at the time and whether they "intentionally" engaged in activity that they knew was illegal or criminal at the time. i have a case right now where a guy bought a Shelby Mustang KR-500 from a "private auction" where the owner had twenty cars he was selling as an Estate plan. this Mustang has a severe VIN problem in its history in that it either isn't a "real" Shelby or it is a real Shelby but has had another Shelby VIN attached to the body. now, if my guy had taken that car to an auction and sold it not knowing about the VIN issue and the "new" buyer found out about the VIN problem, my guy would have a defense to a criminal charge because he didn't "intentionally" engage in fraud. my guy would still be liable for a civil suit from the new guy to recover damages for the reduced value of the car, but he likely would NOT be charged with a crime. criminal laws apply to auto auctions and that's why they are now hiring "inspectors" to look over high-value cars BEFORE they go across the block. if the auction house can show that they acted "reasonably" and "did all they reasonably could" to inspect the vehicle before it was sold, that will be enough for them not to be criminally charged. the general test for whether you are going to jail for something you did is: "what did you know and when did you know it."
@@jimharvard Jim I greatly appreciate you taking the time to educate me on the legal aspects of these deceptive sales. I just can’t wrap my head around the buyer under no circumstances would be to blame for his own lack of verification on high dollar collectible cars. Just to take it to the extreme, if someone tried to sell me a Hyundai Sonata for $1million and told me it was an original Shelby Cobra, seems like that’s my problem for believing him. I don’t mean to be argumentative. Just trying to make it make sense. Thanks again!!! 😃
@@JHKCF hi, note again what i explained. whether or not a person is going to get charged with a crime is dependent upon what that person DID. if a person "legitimately" did not know about a problem with a car when they sold it, THAT person is not likely to be charged. why? because the "guilt" requirement for being convicted of a crime in the U.S. is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt." if there is "any" "reasonable doubt" that the person did not commit the crime or did not have the "motivation" to commit the crime, that person will almost always be found "not guilty" or not have charges brought in the first place. HOWEVER, if the "evidence" shows that actor "actually knew" or "reasonably should have known" that something they were doing was a crime, that person will be charged and "probably" will be convicted. what does "beyond a reasonable doubt" mean? it means that a "reasonable" or "average" person would not have done what the subject person did. OR - it means that a "reasonable" or "average" person would come to the same conclusion about the event or behavior or evidence that the Prosecutor has advanced. as to your example of a buyer "being just stupid", yes, there is a term for that which is "caveat emptor" which is Latin for "the buyer beware." that is the basis for the "as is" sales. but again, "let the buyer beware" only pertains to "legal" matters - NOT things that were inherently "illegal." so if you buy a 70 Boss 302 and two weeks after you bought it, the engine blows up, that is a "let the buyer beware" or a purchase "as is" and the new engine will be the new owner's problem. however, suppose the seller gave the buyer completely made up or fabricated "paperwork" showing that the engine had been fully rebuilt and was "brand new" and the buyer "relied" upon those documents in deciding to purchase the car. if the documents were in fact "false", that would be a crime of either "theft by deception" or "fraud in the inducement" or just "fraud" depending on the state where the act took place. the test for "criminality" is pretty simple. if a person buys a car with a correct VIN, a legal title and no "actual" falsification of any detail - but the car is worn out or rusty and the running condition and/or body condition was just not inspected by the buyer - there is no crime. but if a seller "actively" and "intentionally" falsified an important aspect of the car without telling the buyer about that issue/problem, THAT might be a crime and even if it wasn't a "crime", it still would form the basis of a civil suit for damages against the seller.
Looks great from a distance.
The fender tag doesn’t.
hi Tom good ep i like the book you have about mopars and talking about vin tags to tell everyone what to look out for great job.
In 2018, I went to a regional Mopar show here in NC. I saw a typical "Mopar dream car," a 1970 Challenger convertible in FC7 with a white interior. The hood was up to show off its 440. As I looked down at the 440, I saw from the plate that it had started life as a 318 car in EF8. I then suddenly walked away because I had lost all interest.
You did a video on it ?
Did two videos on it.
G'day Tom,
Thank you for your reply yes the Gran Coupe Emblem thats the one.
BTW if you can google what i believe is the best looking Mopar Hardtop ever made even better than the USA built.
Aussie designed & build.
1972 Chrysler by Chrysler CH Hardtop.
Extremely rare finally document one that has been in a barn since 1983.
After 15 years I finally pictured it & documented it.
Genuine numbers matching 360.
Great story behind it.
Fingers crossed regarding the emblem.
Cheers
Louis Kats from Melbourne, Australia 🇦🇺
How many torque boxes was the aar supposed to have?
4
Im going to to put Chevelle SS badging on my 82 Chevette and send it to Barrett Jackson.
I love that idea - why not a smoke belching rough running Vega! Maybe you can quit your day job. I am amazed at how many SS vehicles there are out there for sale.
$$$$$$
Very helpful video Tom thanks , that is a nice car and i'm sure it went for big money.
My 70 340 swinger has the Vin, door sticker, 2 build sheets, and the body vin on the trunk gutter. I am just missing the Febder tag. If I got a reproduction tag, is that a wise idea?
What did it sell for?
First time was $152k 🤯, second time was $55k at Mecum.
I must have missed it! So it was built in October of 69?
This is why I want another 318 or slant 6 car and just build it how I want it.
I’m not saying this car isn’t a fake but there’s cars out there that had been specially built (unique colors or parts) prior to being available in production. My moms camaro was midnight blue and it was painted 6 months prior to a standard production option and several were built and sent to dealers for their showrooms . Some dealers had office connections and they received cars pre production. Not many, but it did occur.
Weird stuff did happen but on a dedicated race package built for homologation for a race series that is super super documented it would never happen.
So say, hypothetically, someone re-created an FM3 AAR, using ORIGINAL fender tags, with correct 340-6bbl equipment, what would you call it?
Mopar put specific serial numbers in different locations on their vehicles. That particular Cuda should have the matching VIN stamped into the radiator core support, the cowl just above the engine bay, & in the drip rail of the trunk's quarter panel. These numbers SHOULD match the actual VIN on the dash. The fender tag has all of the options & serial number for that vehicle PLUS a special fender tag that just says TRANS AM. The engine block has TA cast in it & I believe the heads have that also PLUS unlike any other small block Mopar head, the rockers are not straight on the shafts. The exhaust rocker is slightly bent to allow for extra porting for racing. Last, but not least, there's the actual build sheet that goes to that specific vehicle usually found in the springs under a seat. All of that determines an actual AAR vs a fake, clone, or tribute.
@roywhitman7109 mostly true. Heads do NOT have TA cast in them. They look just like any lickadick '70 340 head. Interestinly enough, they have the number, "360", cast into the intake runner. They are ONLY drilled differently on the intake pushrod clearance hole. Also, only the intake rockers were dramatically different(than regular mechanical 273 rockers), except the adjusters were NOT self locking.
@budlanctot3060 Thanks. I wasn't positive on that TA cast & I flubbed which rocker was different. My bad.
@roywhitman7109 it's OK. It's been almost 55 years since they came out, and I've slept a few times since then, so I forget stuff sometimes, too
If they used original tags not on the original body that is fraud and a felony. If they kept the original vin on the car then it’s simply a clone.
can you imagine how much money the car companys could make if they reissued their most popular classic designs. like fender and Gibson do with guitars.
It’s certainly to Mecum’s and Barrett Jackson’s advantage to turn a blind eye to whether it’s original or a clone considering the percentage they receive from the sale.
Know for a fact Barrett does pretty good job checking numbers and vins.
What happened with the cars up on the mountain???
Still working on it, court said it was probably going to be another month until any cars can leave.
@@rocketresto Thank you! From the video I thought you were going to get to sneak some cars out
@@Kevin90909 Trying to but fighting the courts.
I love getting the information to know how these cars were built . Thanks Tom .
Thanks for watching!
@mrlawn007 these cars were built in Hamtramck. I've been told by "R/T" McDaniel, who worked there in the offices, that you were risking getting mugged down on the assembly line. A lot of the workers were high on weed, at the least.
@@budlanctot3060never met slash but met his son who was a good guy.
Very informative, thanks for this
Great vid Tom keep it up.
The guy in this video doing the talking is the real actual original guy. You can tell by the way he over pronounces his t’s and c’s. They are very sharp and crisp with the edges turned up very abruptly at the tailing edge of the tone when it comes out of his mouth. Pay attention. These are important ques to follow in these kinds of situations.
First Epstein and Diddy, now this. Wow.
Excellent video
There’s a paperwork trail leading back to who built the car. I’m sure they built it specifically to build a fake car and pass it off to an unsuspecting buyer. I’m also willing to bet that atleast 1 or 2 of the owners that had the car after they bought it had a friend go over the car and found it to be a fake and the owner offloaded it as fast as they could at the auction
Nice job, detective Tom! Looks like people in the market for cars like that need your phone number on Speed Dial for verification.
Mod top.interior on previous page... kinda neat. So if it has been cloned properly with all the right parts and is and older restoration with non numbers matching engine is it worth much less that than an real one with non numbers matching engine? I'm not a collector but if I was is it in as built state and or as used meaning parts were replaced along the way with vintage OE as needed has value. If I want a restored one I would want to do have it done to my liking but understand that given the rarity of the AAR that could be a challenge
Doing good works Tom
Good stuff. Thanks Tom.
I am all about everyone building a car any way they want it to be (including “tribute cars”). What isn’t ok is doing so just to pass it off as something rare and valuable to elicit a monitory value that isn’t really there. Now, I have neither the income or the fascination to be investing in the “big money” muscle Mopars, so the fact that all that remained of my lowly ‘64 Barracuda’s body tag were a couple of “lace edged” washers under the two screws doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I will totally build it my own way but also I would not ever try to pass it off as anything else. In a way, it is sad that these cars have gained so much value over the years that building “faux” rare cars for a better payday has become a reality. I suppose it all boils down to buyer beware, which is always a sad aspect of life. The irony is that, even though it would not have brought the insane money of an original AAR, people would still love to own it and a few would still be willing to grossly overpay for it (especially in a high end auction situation) even if it was properly represented and sold as a “tribute car”. If properly represented when sold and bought for reasonable money … and as long as the restoration quality was good … nobody would complain that it was a fake! Fortunately for me, I have no worries of getting stuck with any fake diamonds or fake low production muscle cars! Now, its back to scraping the surface rust off the underside of my ‘64.
Odd that these trans am series 'cudas could have automatic transmissions and decor items like wheel lip mouldings, and not be all 4 speed cars with no body ornamentation like B302s
I dunno. I doubt many, if any, were built for a specific customer order. When I 'ordered' mine, they were already built. I just specified what I had to have for options, what I would prefer to have for options, and what I didn't want for options. The dealer just tried to come up with the best match. I never even specified what color I wanted, because I didn't care what color it was. Perhaps it might be interesting to others, but mine was an automatic, with wheel lip moldings. Mine is a 3-tag car, also.
they need to do what big car shows did years ago I was called in to judge chevelles i looked for chevelles with small fuel lines being pushed as an ss certain markings and nuts and bolts specially used on an ss and copo cars . they need to ante up and hire a guy "pay" him /her to certify the cars !