GRRM says Melisandre is a misunderstood character, and I think the TV show only made it worse. There was an air of haughtiness and insipidity about her. I think you are being unbiased and it is good to see book Melisandre analyzed like this.
On the show after Shireen is burned and Stannis looses she humbled. Rightly. She's sitting in front of a fire clutching her cape. She feels separated from her god.
"The fire was inside her (as if a sword, worked for 100 days and nights, was pierced her body), an agony, an ecstasy, filling her (as the screams from Nisa-Nisa), transforming her" And It stands to reason that a book series named A Song of ICE and FIRE, would automatically imply that, if Ice Others exist, then Fire Others must also exist. [edit: LOVE these videos DL!]
Rhoynish water magic is the balance of the two. Combine fire and ice, and get water. And ash (from whatever you're burning), so weirwood magic might be balanced too
Might be the other way around, like Ice being a deturpation of Water Magic.
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One thing you missed with the word "searing" is that word in particular when talking about cooking means to seal the outside, keep all the juices locked in. It's a form of preservation. We've heard about cold preserving...
If Night's Queen helped create the Others, do you think Melisandre might help create some kind of Fire Others? Obviously she's turning into one but if she's supposed to parallel Night's Queen it would make sense. Maybe the story will end with the Ice Others heading back to the Lands of Always Winter and the Fire Others head to Asshai or Valyria, where another wall is erected perhaps?
Would be interesting if they were basically just Fire Benders, perhaps if she finds a Valyrian man to sleep with then the Dragon Genetics would be a string part of it. The Blood of the Dragon from the Valyrian race, given more, well, Magic go it. Makes you wonder why the Targaryens didn't have any among them to worship Rhollor and practice fire magic is odd to me.
Baseless speculation here but I think Melisandre is the daughter of blood raven and Shiera Seastar and when Shiera went to study magic she had/took Melisandre to Asshai something happened and she was sold into slavery and then sold to the red temple.
Ok so if Mel is a Fire Other hiding her fire damaged skin with a glamour, doesn't it stand to reason that an Ice Other could hide their frozen visage behind a glamour too? Are there any characters in the saga who could be an Other? Presumably their blue eyes would shine through the glamour like Mel's red eyes (unless Mel shows her glowing red eyes to impress people, as a matter of choice). If there aren't any glamoured Others quite yet, perhaps once the Others make it past the wall, one or more of them will be able to infiltrate human society using a glamour, much like Melisandre.
David Lightbringer yes, it would be elegant if the inverse example was the Night’s Queen from the past rather than a character in the books. I’d love to see some clues in Winds, perhaps through Bran, to indicate that that was the case.
More and more stuff to do with flames and slaves just makes me think of the Doom of Valyria and really Rhllor seem to only turn up after the incident, so maybe the being or force was born from it, but the other possibility is if the Rhllor stuff goes all the way back to the Empire of the Dawn and be interesting if Rhllor was the Empire of The Dawn state religion.
Magic in this series seems to be based on ancient ideas about the elements. The Others using ice magic with their Army of the Dead being ice wights. R'hllorists and Valyrians using fire magic with Melisandre bing a fire other and Lady Stone Heart and Beric Dondarrion being fire wights. Rhoynar using water magic. Patchface might be some type of water wight. The Children of the Forest use wood / earth magic, with Blood Raven and the Children of the forest attached to the weirwood trees being wood / earth others. The Bloodstone Emperor used space magic with his black stone fallen from the sky, and the red comet emanates space magic. The Dayne's greatsword Dawn forged from a meteor is likely space magic also. I wonder what space others and wights might be like.
@@DavidLightbringer yeah, I also just thought it would be funny and GRRM twist if she has been going around thinking everyone else was the hero when it was her
Melisandre seems to try to actively interpret her visions more than the other Seers, while Moqorro talks more about what he sees and letting the recipient make their own decisions about what the visions mean
20, 20, 20, 20, 4 hours to goooo I wanna be R'hollored Hurry, hurry, hurry Before I go insane I can't control my fingers I can't control my brain Oh, no oh oh oh oooh! I wanna be R'hollored
This begs two questions: the flames that leapt from Benerro's fingers and the fiery letters he wrote in the air might be real? And also, if Ice Others can raise the dead into Ice Wights, the Fire Others can raise the dead into Fire Wights. This would indicate Thoros is a Fire Other as well. WHy was he getting drunk all the time? Doesn't he know that fire and alcohol are a dangerous combo? This would give a new explanation to the way he lights his sword though.
Victarion's 'pork crackling' arm reminds me of poor Aerea, being cooked from the inside by those fire worms form Valyria. I'm not saying Moqorro slipped a small worm inside Vic's arm (eugh...) but maybe some sort of similar fire magic was practiced in Valyria, and was probably brought from the GEotD, thus it remained in Asshai?
Yeah the way I would look at that is that fire magic is the common element between Aerea and Vic. Those parasitic worms are creatures of fire, and they burned her, but killing her because they’re parasites. Mo is a skilled magician using the same raw magical force, but to heal.
Sacrifice to the algorithm gods! Holy shit, I am very, VERY happy, as well as wickedly impressed, with this series so far man. Personally, I am *always* fascinated by anything Melisandre related within the broader context of the story, but these couple of videos you've put out so far have taken my fascination with her character to a whoooole new level. Plus, the fact that Melisandre artwork is always incredibly awesome and fire as hell (hehe) is a superrrr nice bonus. Thank you for this content man!! Edit: Also just wanted to say that the 'Night Queen' artwork included at 5:21 is one of the best pieces of ASOIAF art I've ever seen. I love it. Thank you so much for including that!!
I'd love it if Val turned to be secretly the corpse queen, the forgotten sister of Mel. Makes me wonder the red and blue figurines GRRM had made were sisters.
Nice, always love your theories for how deep they go into the metaphysical and symbolic aspects with attention to all the nuances of the story… though now I kind of got this weird idea on my head that maybe the long night could be the other’s version of a mating ritual which they are throwing around to try to win Melisandre over as the fire to balance their ice (feel free to laugh at it, I know I am, maybe I haven’t quite gotten over Season 8’s “plot-twists” like I thought).
Love the video, Mel is such an interesting character! I'm still partial to the idea that Mel is actually trying to die/be released from life (ice preserves, fire consumes), just because it would be a hell of a swerve tbh.
Well, she speaks of having the weight of the world on her shoulders (hence no time to sleep), so she’s definitely driven by necessity. There’s no telling how long she’s been alive. I definitely think she’s ready to throw herself into the bonfire to save the day when the moment is right.
do you think it's possible for a warg to go into his animal at death but then if his body gets "iced over" transfer back into his body retaining his full consciousness ? (this is a theory i have about a certain elk loving brother of mine ;) ) love the theory content as usual..Mel really is something else lol
Yes this is exactly what I think happened to Coldhands. Check out my CH video or the Lord Snow & Promised to the Others vids... he seems to be an undead skinchanger whose body was repossessed from the Others
@@DavidLightbringer AWESOME ! I'll head to those now, I do believe that's the most likely scenario so glad you agree lol great minds think alike (I'd be honored too join your starry host lol an so i will )
Thank you! Yeah this series is fun because I’m breaking some new ground here - that can be hard to do after so much time. I’ve always observed that Mel is transforming by fire and not undead, but I hadn’t stopped to think about what it means until now
Poison hence didn't work on her for the same reason poison def won't work on the Others. And if we go by the Others' model, an Other's icy blade or Others' cold will be what it takes to kill Fiery Others/ the Other Others/ Red Walkers? Are Fiery Others made of dragon glass- frozen fire as just fire itself is formless like water?
This definitely makes sense as to why the Others can foretell the future, especially in regards to a chosen person who is obviously meant to be Jon. And the thing that George must be showing us (as you talk about) is that the Others had to have gone through a similar transformation, just with ice instead of fire. I really hope we get knowledge or hints on who the Others were in TWOW
This video is so enjoyable that I've watched it three times. I started to wonder if we have more than just fire and ice others. Could the stone men be "Earth" Others? Could Sweet Robin end up being an "Air" Other. We might have the ultimate battle of Rock Paper Scissors happening here. :-)
The Squishers, mermaids and Deep ones are water others! Even the Drowned God! They steel humans as well. They need them to reproduce. Like Craster's sons!
I was so excited for this 🙏🏻 Love this new theory! I definitely think Mel is not human and this fits in nicely with the rest of the lore IMO! Great video!
Oh nice. I had a theory on the History of Westeros forums a few years back suggesting there are fire others, and the squishers were water others, and the singers are probably earth others, but I didn’t think Melisandre was one.
@@DavidLightbringer oh no, it makes a lot of sense. After Melisandre’s POV with the womb smoke it was clear she’s something else, and your Night’s Queen bit really sold it. I certainly never picked up on the fact that she’s in the *process* of transitioning myself. Great attention to detail. Her not taking food like Beric is probably a red herring to make you think she’s a fire wight. But this fits more nicely.
well not the only way because then humanity would end.. but it might be the only way to battle the Others hand to hand in the frozen lands, that i think is true
This is my theory. That the first other was someone (I think a Stark ancestor) who did some form of ice magic to survive a very long winter/the long night. Probably didn't know it would turn him into something non human.
@@AriaIsara and then his name was stripped from him. he became stark (naked/stripped) of name. so he could no longer wield his family's magic sword he was a Dayne.
I enjoy your videos and streams so much! I'm always done rereading the books again and it's so good to have stuff to watch to accompany that 😊 not to mention the amount of stuff you point out that I would never have noticed on my own, makes the story so much more fun! Thank you LmL!! 🔥 😃
I really like this Fire Other theory. I'd say you make a very strong case for it. I would ask you: what would be, in this instance, the equivalent to the WeirWalker fact ? The "regular" Others are not just magical ice beings, they are the consequence of great evil and trauma. What would be the echo of that with the Fire Other ? Anyway, most excellent vidéo 👌
So in some ways the shadow babies that Melisandre spawns as the opposite of the Others - white shadows and black, with Mel paralleling NQ. But they aren’t exactly the same; the shadow babies seem to go away when mission is accomplished, but something was done to keep the white shadows around. I think it was NQ who did a gradual transformation along the lines of what Melisandre is doing, but with ice, and the Others are in part her creation. There’s a “ kicking the spirits out of the Wierwood tree” side of Other creation but also a shadowbinding side where the expelled ghost is bound to an ice golem body, it seems. I’m going to try to pick that apart at some point
Maybe Melisandre, when her powers grow, can put her black shadows into a body of fire, coal or lava. Then they will be permanent. And of cause some human baby's have to be sacrificed as well...
Yes thank you Atlantis! Mesmerizing artwork! Thank you as well Lightbringer for such brilliant in depth content and the insight you bring to questions I didn’t even know I had.
It definitely does seem like some Fire Priests are different beings and more like Gandalf, who was a higher being. Gandalf was Maiar which were spirits that helped the gods, but also Gandalf is described as having "eyes were set like coals that could suddenly burst into fire" and snowy which is interesting. I feel like they Moqorro and Mel are higher beings, could be fun if they were reincarnated or maybe the past Nissa and Azor Ahai for more tinfoil, two are so old that they don't have memories of it, or she lost hers from trauma of it.
I really can't see any holes in this theory at all. Very interesting. It's difficult to believe sometimes that there was enough hidden minutiae in a set of books that could hold my attention for decades between sequels. Despite his discipline level, I just don't know of any other author that comes close to the detail level in the worlds George RR Martin is able to create. I appreciate what you do here David; you're always able to bring things out of this world that I was in too much of a rush to notice.
He’s the most subtle and efficient world-builder I can think of, that’s for sure! He uses the mythological references to imply more than he writes, but even then he’s just very good at it.
He’s always distracting you with action while slipping in information. The magic technicals I’m highlighting here come in the middle of very intense scenes - Mel’s vision (which we want to interpret!) and the shadowbaby birthing. Both very distracting
He wasn't dead when his arm was healed, but he was nearly dead. Septic. Walking dead - his death was "with us now". Perhaps even "at the door" of his death? Like the entire series itself, this scene is a reference to Fall of the House of Usher.
Very interesting theory about fire others. If she is slowly becoming a fire other is it of her own free will, or is Red Raloo (magic) making this happen? And were the ice others created, or were they too some kind of ice priests and wanted to be turned into ice? hmmm very interesting.
Could ‘fire others’ just be a combination of dragons (they’re fire made flesh) and the dragons riders (it’s said there is fire in the blood of the targaryens). Its seems more plausible than a direct fire equivalent of the white walkers. Moqorro and Melisandre’s changes might just be side effects of advanced shadowbinding rather than some transformation into fire others.
No that’s what I’m saying, these are side effects of using fire magic. We’re not in Moqorro’s head so who knows what the condition of his body really is, but with Mel we know for a fact that she is transforming her physical body by using fire magic, and transforming in such a way so as to no longer require sleep and food. You can call that whatever you want, I called it a fire other, but it’s a simple fact that the fire magic is turning her into a being of fire. That’s not an issue of likelihood, it’s just a matter of what we want to call that process
Halfway through, when you mentioned Charcoal Men, it suddenly made me think of the Stone Men? I wonder if Greyscale is some sort of water or earth magic equivalent, obviously contracted unwillingly in that case. It too seems to slowly grow until it takes all of you over... Just a thought.
Do you think the Daenerys will become more like a fire white? Matching the color of Drogon? Will Bran the Greenseer become more green or green like and ride Rhaegal? Will Jon become more pale when he is brought back, somehow getting dawn, having Ghost by his side, and end up riding Viserion?
Jon will look like Ghost I am thinking, like a weirwood and like Bloodraven. Dany, I have ideas but I’m saving those. Bran should look the same I think. But Mel might look like Moqorro underneath
The obsidian dagger undoing the spell binding the Other together is a lot like the Barrow Blade from LOTR undoing the spells that held the shadowy sinews of the Witch-King together. The primary difference is that the Witch-King didn't outright die and was instead made susceptible to normal damage, which the fatal strike was then inflicted by Éowyn
Also, an interesting detail is that in the Wildling cultures, they say that Redheads were "kissed by the fire" and are considered lucky. Maybe i's a very old reiminding of fire others or of Azor Ahai ?
So I always wondered if maybe being resurrected by fire allows the fire wights like Donddarion to keep their personality and memory, while ice wights are used like puppets but last a lot longer cuz fire consumes and ice preserves
In regards to Melisandre's knowledge of Moqorro, we don't know how long it has been since she left the church, and she may only know those in her section of the church. In addition, Moqorro seems slightly more accurate, but Melisandre sees a broader scope
Btw, I noticed that "fire wights" do seem to die again, quicker than the ice wights. I figure that fire wights are still vulnerable to decay and can die from the same damage as average men, while we see the ice wights take INSANE amounts of damage without pause or death. Melisandre said that fire is life, but it consumes, therefore, ice is death, but it preserves
I loved the otter pop reference, you know the others get those giant ones? Maybe I can strike a deal with them, they spare me from becoming a wight and I give them all my uneaten grape ones.
Getting back into ASOIAF after a 5 year break (!), I started getting some new theories because of having a fresh mind I guess, I just thinking about the obvious parallel between Others raising the dead and red priests resurrecting the dead (the body isn't alive but the person is not mindless so I'm calling it resurrecting). I started watching this series before I could take the reasoning further so I don't know if I would have thought of "fire others" on my own lol but I definitely agree with the idea!
Remember in danys vision when she saw the emperors and they had eyes of amethyst, tourmaline, opal, etc? We have purple eyes valarean, grey eyes stark, blue eyes others and Mel here all having eyes described as stones
fantastic video. beautiful content which is superbly accentuated by those sick editing skillz. dawg you've leveled up bro spendin those ability points in the right place xD
Aren’t dragons supposed to be “fire made flesh,” which is the opposite of living ice? Am I a fool for thinking dragons are the equivalent of a fire other?
i wonder if the pond in front of the weirwood at Winterfell is a melted walker Also, on vic's fire hand. Wasnt it also said that some of the first men came to westoros with "fire in their hand" perhaps they were the early r'hllerists
The last line of Sam's slayer moment has me thinking if the soul/mind of the other was absorped by the blade as it literally desolved. The other way around: are the ice weapons of the others able to do the same to fire others? What impact has this ritual murder on the blade and its wielder?
"Fire Others" sounds like the mantra of any HR executive.
Snarf Snarf.
Loool underrated statement 😂
The books are leading to an apocalypse led by popsicled humans. An apopsiclypse
comment of the day winner!
GRRM says Melisandre is a misunderstood character, and I think the TV show only made it worse. There was an air of haughtiness and insipidity about her. I think you are being unbiased and it is good to see book Melisandre analyzed like this.
a key line is that she doesn't have time for sleep "with the weight of the world on her shoulders." She's trying to save the world, nothing less.
On the show after Shireen is burned and Stannis looses she humbled. Rightly.
She's sitting in front of a fire clutching her cape.
She feels separated from her god.
"The fire was inside her (as if a sword, worked for 100 days and nights, was pierced her body), an agony, an ecstasy, filling her (as the screams from Nisa-Nisa), transforming her" And It stands to reason that a book series named A Song of ICE and FIRE, would automatically imply that, if Ice Others exist, then Fire Others must also exist. [edit: LOVE these videos DL!]
Rhoynish water magic is the balance of the two. Combine fire and ice, and get water. And ash (from whatever you're burning), so weirwood magic might be balanced too
Might be the other way around, like Ice being a deturpation of Water Magic.
One thing you missed with the word "searing" is that word in particular when talking about cooking means to seal the outside, keep all the juices locked in. It's a form of preservation. We've heard about cold preserving...
LML continues to put out quality content. Nobody else does ASOIAF like this guy.
When Mel’s transformation is complete, do you think she will fly around and shoot fireballs like Johnny Storm?
Hahaha in part 4 I will speculate on what she will do
Yes, yes she will
It's Rhy'Lorin' Time!
She will morph into a dragon
If Night's Queen helped create the Others, do you think Melisandre might help create some kind of Fire Others? Obviously she's turning into one but if she's supposed to parallel Night's Queen it would make sense. Maybe the story will end with the Ice Others heading back to the Lands of Always Winter and the Fire Others head to Asshai or Valyria, where another wall is erected perhaps?
Will discuss in part 4!
Had this same thought. Her birthing the shadow babies could even be a sort of practice in creating life through fire magic
She'll need a Day's King then if she's becoming Day's Queen...
Would be interesting if they were basically just Fire Benders, perhaps if she finds a Valyrian man to sleep with then the Dragon Genetics would be a string part of it.
The Blood of the Dragon from the Valyrian race, given more, well, Magic go it. Makes you wonder why the Targaryens didn't have any among them to worship Rhollor and practice fire magic is odd to me.
Baseless speculation here but I think Melisandre is the daughter of blood raven and Shiera Seastar and when Shiera went to study magic she had/took Melisandre to Asshai something happened and she was sold into slavery and then sold to the red temple.
Ok so if Mel is a Fire Other hiding her fire damaged skin with a glamour, doesn't it stand to reason that an Ice Other could hide their frozen visage behind a glamour too? Are there any characters in the saga who could be an Other? Presumably their blue eyes would shine through the glamour like Mel's red eyes (unless Mel shows her glowing red eyes to impress people, as a matter of choice). If there aren't any glamoured Others quite yet, perhaps once the Others make it past the wall, one or more of them will be able to infiltrate human society using a glamour, much like Melisandre.
I’m thinking it’s Nichts Queen, an ice priestess, who may be able to use a glamour. But that’s conjecture as we haven’t seen ice glamours.
David Lightbringer yes, it would be elegant if the inverse example was the Night’s Queen from the past rather than a character in the books. I’d love to see some clues in Winds, perhaps through Bran, to indicate that that was the case.
@@mattfoulgerBC That would be amazing. Great idea!
Roose Bolton maybe. George also describes his eyes to make others feel uneasy.
Yoh! Do you mean to say undercover ice brothers? Like maybe Coldhands but South of the Wall?
More and more stuff to do with flames and slaves just makes me think of the Doom of Valyria and really Rhllor seem to only turn up after the incident, so maybe the being or force was born from it, but the other possibility is if the Rhllor stuff goes all the way back to the Empire of the Dawn and be interesting if Rhllor was the Empire of The Dawn state religion.
The Maiden made of Light sounds very much like a gender flipped Lord of Night, doesn't it?
Magic in this series seems to be based on ancient ideas about the elements. The Others using ice magic with their Army of the Dead being ice wights. R'hllorists and Valyrians using fire magic with Melisandre bing a fire other and Lady Stone Heart and Beric Dondarrion being fire wights. Rhoynar using water magic. Patchface might be some type of water wight. The Children of the Forest use wood / earth magic, with Blood Raven and the Children of the forest attached to the weirwood trees being wood / earth others. The Bloodstone Emperor used space magic with his black stone fallen from the sky, and the red comet emanates space magic. The Dayne's greatsword Dawn forged from a meteor is likely space magic also. I wonder what space others and wights might be like.
I also do find it funny if Mel actually was Azor Ahai she talks about and didn't realize it, LMAO
Well did you notice there Nissa Nissa symbolism in those Mel quotes? Agony and ecstasy? The fire inside her like LB stabbing Nn?
@@DavidLightbringer yeah, I also just thought it would be funny and GRRM twist if she has been going around thinking everyone else was the hero when it was her
I totally can see a setup in The Fire Side being = Rhllor, Fire Priests and then the Fire Wights.
Melisandre seems to try to actively interpret her visions more than the other Seers, while Moqorro talks more about what he sees and letting the recipient make their own decisions about what the visions mean
Absolutely loved it, this is going to be a favorite series. Well done, David!
Thanks Devoted!
20, 20, 20, 20, 4 hours to goooo
I wanna be R'hollored
Hurry, hurry, hurry
Before I go insane
I can't control my fingers
I can't control my brain
Oh, no oh oh oh oooh!
I wanna be R'hollored
Don't forget beat on the brat
This begs two questions: the flames that leapt from Benerro's fingers and the fiery letters he wrote in the air might be real? And also, if Ice Others can raise the dead into Ice Wights, the Fire Others can raise the dead into Fire Wights. This would indicate Thoros is a Fire Other as well. WHy was he getting drunk all the time? Doesn't he know that fire and alcohol are a dangerous combo? This would give a new explanation to the way he lights his sword though.
He is on the bottom, he just beginning his transition.
Victarion's 'pork crackling' arm reminds me of poor Aerea, being cooked from the inside by those fire worms form Valyria. I'm not saying Moqorro slipped a small worm inside Vic's arm (eugh...) but maybe some sort of similar fire magic was practiced in Valyria, and was probably brought from the GEotD, thus it remained in Asshai?
Yeah the way I would look at that is that fire magic is the common element between Aerea and Vic. Those parasitic worms are creatures of fire, and they burned her, but killing her because they’re parasites. Mo is a skilled magician using the same raw magical force, but to heal.
Sacrifice to the algorithm gods! Holy shit, I am very, VERY happy, as well as wickedly impressed, with this series so far man. Personally, I am *always* fascinated by anything Melisandre related within the broader context of the story, but these couple of videos you've put out so far have taken my fascination with her character to a whoooole new level.
Plus, the fact that Melisandre artwork is always incredibly awesome and fire as hell (hehe) is a superrrr nice bonus. Thank you for this content man!!
Edit: Also just wanted to say that the 'Night Queen' artwork included at 5:21 is one of the best pieces of ASOIAF art I've ever seen. I love it. Thank you so much for including that!!
I'd love it if Val turned to be secretly the corpse queen, the forgotten sister of Mel. Makes me wonder the red and blue figurines GRRM had made were sisters.
You are doing holy work for making the wait for TWOW a bit easy.
🔥 video. I hope we get more Mel PoV chapters in the future
Accidentally re-watched part 1 about 2 hours so this is an omen
It is rare that something makes me literally chuckle or laugh aloud, and yet you do it pretty consistently. Thank you, sir.
Nice, always love your theories for how deep they go into the metaphysical and symbolic aspects with attention to all the nuances of the story… though now I kind of got this weird idea on my head that maybe the long night could be the other’s version of a mating ritual which they are throwing around to try to win Melisandre over as the fire to balance their ice (feel free to laugh at it, I know I am, maybe I haven’t quite gotten over Season 8’s “plot-twists” like I thought).
Martin is a genius. When he finally releases Winds and Dream they're gonna be the best selling books of all time.
This theory is just all kinds of awesome!!! It's really hitting home the whole Ice and Fire theme ❄️🔥
Love the video, Mel is such an interesting character! I'm still partial to the idea that Mel is actually trying to die/be released from life (ice preserves, fire consumes), just because it would be a hell of a swerve tbh.
Well, she speaks of having the weight of the world on her shoulders (hence no time to sleep), so she’s definitely driven by necessity. There’s no telling how long she’s been alive. I definitely think she’s ready to throw herself into the bonfire to save the day when the moment is right.
The price of her magic is pain, she says.
do you think it's possible for a warg to go into his animal at death but then if his body gets "iced over" transfer back into his body retaining his full consciousness ? (this is a theory i have about a certain elk loving brother of mine ;) ) love the theory content as usual..Mel really is something else lol
Yes this is exactly what I think happened to Coldhands. Check out my CH video or the Lord Snow & Promised to the Others vids... he seems to be an undead skinchanger whose body was repossessed from the Others
@@DavidLightbringer AWESOME ! I'll head to those now, I do believe that's the most likely scenario so glad you agree lol great minds think alike (I'd be honored too join your starry host lol an so i will )
Giddy up, David! this is as intriguing as when you first wrote the Weirwood and Bloodstone Compendiums.
Thank you! Yeah this series is fun because I’m breaking some new ground here - that can be hard to do after so much time. I’ve always observed that Mel is transforming by fire and not undead, but I hadn’t stopped to think about what it means until now
Poison hence didn't work on her for the same reason poison def won't work on the Others. And if we go by the Others' model, an Other's icy blade or Others' cold will be what it takes to kill Fiery Others/ the Other Others/ Red Walkers? Are Fiery Others made of dragon glass- frozen fire as just fire itself is formless like water?
This definitely makes sense as to why the Others can foretell the future, especially in regards to a chosen person who is obviously meant to be Jon. And the thing that George must be showing us (as you talk about) is that the Others had to have gone through a similar transformation, just with ice instead of fire. I really hope we get knowledge or hints on who the Others were in TWOW
Exactly, they must have prophecy and foresight it would seem. I mean heck they have star eyes, they’re great astronomers!
Awesome vid!! This series is 🔥🔥🔥
Literally
This video is so enjoyable that I've watched it three times. I started to wonder if we have more than just fire and ice others. Could the stone men be "Earth" Others? Could Sweet Robin end up being an "Air" Other. We might have the ultimate battle of Rock Paper Scissors happening here. :-)
theoretically magical transformation is possible through all mediums, but ice and fire are the only ones we really need to think about I bet
The Squishers, mermaids and Deep ones are water others! Even the Drowned God! They steel humans as well. They need them to reproduce. Like Craster's sons!
I was so excited for this 🙏🏻
Love this new theory! I definitely think Mel is not human and this fits in nicely with the rest of the lore IMO! Great video!
Love this Mel series
"Coal hands" I love it! My new name for Victarion
Oh nice. I had a theory on the History of Westeros forums a few years back suggesting there are fire others, and the squishers were water others, and the singers are probably earth others, but I didn’t think Melisandre was one.
Oh well here you go ser! What do you think of this theory?
@@DavidLightbringer oh no, it makes a lot of sense. After Melisandre’s POV with the womb smoke it was clear she’s something else, and your Night’s Queen bit really sold it. I certainly never picked up on the fact that she’s in the *process* of transitioning myself. Great attention to detail.
Her not taking food like Beric is probably a red herring to make you think she’s a fire wight. But this fits more nicely.
I kind of wonder if the only way to survive a Long Night is to become one kind of Other or another.
well not the only way because then humanity would end.. but it might be the only way to battle the Others hand to hand in the frozen lands, that i think is true
This is my theory. That the first other was someone (I think a Stark ancestor) who did some form of ice magic to survive a very long winter/the long night. Probably didn't know it would turn him into something non human.
@@AriaIsara and then his name was stripped from him.
he became stark (naked/stripped) of name.
so he could no longer wield his family's magic sword
he was a Dayne.
I enjoy your videos and streams so much! I'm always done rereading the books again and it's so good to have stuff to watch to accompany that 😊 not to mention the amount of stuff you point out that I would never have noticed on my own, makes the story so much more fun! Thank you LmL!! 🔥 😃
Right on, that’s what I’m here for exactly!
I've been looking forward to this!! Thanks LML
Gonna enjoy this one love rholor and associated lore this is the first comprehensive playlist I've found well done
Since dragonglass is frozen fire, would it kill a Fire Other as well?
Great video. Really enjoying this series.
Awesome video David....just just...lovely
I really like this Fire Other theory.
I'd say you make a very strong case for it.
I would ask you: what would be, in this instance, the equivalent to the WeirWalker fact ? The "regular" Others are not just magical ice beings, they are the consequence of great evil and trauma. What would be the echo of that with the Fire Other ?
Anyway, most excellent vidéo 👌
So in some ways the shadow babies that Melisandre spawns as the opposite of the Others - white shadows and black, with Mel paralleling NQ. But they aren’t exactly the same; the shadow babies seem to go away when mission is accomplished, but something was done to keep the white shadows around. I think it was NQ who did a gradual transformation along the lines of what Melisandre is doing, but with ice, and the Others are in part her creation. There’s a “ kicking the spirits out of the Wierwood tree” side of Other creation but also a shadowbinding side where the expelled ghost is bound to an ice golem body, it seems. I’m going to try to pick that apart at some point
@@DavidLightbringer I understand yes ! And it makes sense !
Maybe Melisandre, when her powers grow, can put her black shadows into a body of fire, coal or lava. Then they will be permanent. And of cause some human baby's have to be sacrificed as well...
Yes thank you Atlantis! Mesmerizing artwork! Thank you as well Lightbringer for such brilliant in depth content and the insight you bring to questions I didn’t even know I had.
I think we will see at least one more shadow baby...she birthed two, so one more would be nice.
For sure. Will discuss in part 4
The dragon must have 3 heads?
It definitely does seem like some Fire Priests are different beings and more like Gandalf, who was a higher being. Gandalf was Maiar which were spirits that helped the gods, but also Gandalf is described as having "eyes were set like coals that could suddenly burst into fire" and snowy which is interesting. I feel like they Moqorro and Mel are higher beings, could be fun if they were reincarnated or maybe the past Nissa and Azor Ahai for more tinfoil, two are so old that they don't have memories of it, or she lost hers from trauma of it.
"pork crackling from elbow to fingertips" That's quite the visual, thanks George.
This was a really good one, my guy. Fire magic is off tha chain!
Loving these David
Would be nice to have the Red Woman turn completely then upon Jon’s resurrection.
I'm SO EMBARRASSED that I never noticed the parallels between the descriptions of the eyes of the Others and the eyes of Melisandre.
I mean there’s a LOT of descriptions of a LOT of things, it didn’t start popping out to me until I had read through a couple times
I really can't see any holes in this theory at all. Very interesting. It's difficult to believe sometimes that there was enough hidden minutiae in a set of books that could hold my attention for decades between sequels. Despite his discipline level, I just don't know of any other author that comes close to the detail level in the worlds George RR Martin is able to create. I appreciate what you do here David; you're always able to bring things out of this world that I was in too much of a rush to notice.
He’s the most subtle and efficient world-builder I can think of, that’s for sure! He uses the mythological references to imply more than he writes, but even then he’s just very good at it.
He’s always distracting you with action while slipping in information. The magic technicals I’m highlighting here come in the middle of very intense scenes - Mel’s vision (which we want to interpret!) and the shadowbaby birthing. Both very distracting
He wasn't dead when his arm was healed, but he was nearly dead. Septic. Walking dead - his death was "with us now". Perhaps even "at the door" of his death? Like the entire series itself, this scene is a reference to Fall of the House of Usher.
Been searching for ages for something like this. Will watch asshai series next
I’ve heard can’t die without being killed termed as sub-mortal, but I’m not sure if that checks out
One thing I find interesting is that in the apocalyptic Jewish literature of the second temple period describes angels as beings of pure fire
Love your videos and your energy. Keep up the amazing work
The Dark Souls character is called Soul of Cinder - it is an amalgamation of all the souls that burned themselves up to keep the first flame kindled
Very interesting theory about fire others. If she is slowly becoming a fire other is it of her own free will, or is Red Raloo (magic) making this happen? And were the ice others created, or were they too some kind of ice priests and wanted to be turned into ice? hmmm very interesting.
i love this whole series
The fire others are the valyrians ( the ancient ones, not the targeryens)
Awesome video as always 😊. Made my Monday morning much better
Could ‘fire others’ just be a combination of dragons (they’re fire made flesh) and the dragons riders (it’s said there is fire in the blood of the targaryens). Its seems more plausible than a direct fire equivalent of the white walkers. Moqorro and Melisandre’s changes might just be side effects of advanced shadowbinding rather than some transformation into fire others.
No that’s what I’m saying, these are side effects of using fire magic. We’re not in Moqorro’s head so who knows what the condition of his body really is, but with Mel we know for a fact that she is transforming her physical body by using fire magic, and transforming in such a way so as to no longer require sleep and food. You can call that whatever you want, I called it a fire other, but it’s a simple fact that the fire magic is turning her into a being of fire. That’s not an issue of likelihood, it’s just a matter of what we want to call that process
LML I think as usual you're onto something my man. 🔥
Halfway through, when you mentioned Charcoal Men, it suddenly made me think of the Stone Men? I wonder if Greyscale is some sort of water or earth magic equivalent, obviously contracted unwillingly in that case. It too seems to slowly grow until it takes all of you over... Just a thought.
I can’t wait to see the conclusion you are leading to I’m sure it will be epic
Do you think the Daenerys will become more like a fire white? Matching the color of Drogon?
Will Bran the Greenseer become more green or green like and ride Rhaegal?
Will Jon become more pale when he is brought back, somehow getting dawn, having Ghost by his side, and end up riding Viserion?
Against an Ice dragon of course
Jon will look like Ghost I am thinking, like a weirwood and like Bloodraven. Dany, I have ideas but I’m saving those. Bran should look the same I think. But Mel might look like Moqorro underneath
What if Fire Others were what the Golden Empire of Dawn built the five forts to repel?
Beings of ash as opposed to beings of ice.
Could be... it’s certainly possible
It makes sense! If the wall of ice stops the others...
The obsidian dagger undoing the spell binding the Other together is a lot like the Barrow Blade from LOTR undoing the spells that held the shadowy sinews of the Witch-King together. The primary difference is that the Witch-King didn't outright die and was instead made susceptible to normal damage, which the fatal strike was then inflicted by Éowyn
Also, an interesting detail is that in the Wildling cultures, they say that Redheads were "kissed by the fire" and are considered lucky. Maybe i's a very old reiminding of fire others or of Azor Ahai ?
I'm sure I must have heard that somewhere, yeah. It's very well done
another great video
So I always wondered if maybe being resurrected by fire allows the fire wights like Donddarion to keep their personality and memory, while ice wights are used like puppets but last a lot longer cuz fire consumes and ice preserves
Amazing theory and video LML!
it's a fun one because I'm basically just observing what is going on, very closely, and it's like "oh, fire Others, yeah"
Wow… wasn’t expecting Mr. Hanky !!!
When you do serial videos like this can you list the precious ones in the description box? That would be super helpful 😊
Thanks for the reminder yeah! The thing to use are the playlists on the front page of the TH-cam channel, or under the playlist tab
I am fired up!!
So who do y'all think is the most powerful red priest that we've seen so far?
In regards to Melisandre's knowledge of Moqorro, we don't know how long it has been since she left the church, and she may only know those in her section of the church. In addition, Moqorro seems slightly more accurate, but Melisandre sees a broader scope
Btw, I noticed that "fire wights" do seem to die again, quicker than the ice wights. I figure that fire wights are still vulnerable to decay and can die from the same damage as average men, while we see the ice wights take INSANE amounts of damage without pause or death. Melisandre said that fire is life, but it consumes, therefore, ice is death, but it preserves
That's the Lord/ soul of Cinder to you! Jkjk well done man! Love it
I loved the otter pop reference, you know the others get those giant ones? Maybe I can strike a deal with them, they spare me from becoming a wight and I give them all my uneaten grape ones.
Mr Hankey, Beavis, popsicles - yes, 'tis a captivating, quality discussion of fiction. I seriously love it 👏❤️👌
Getting back into ASOIAF after a 5 year break (!), I started getting some new theories because of having a fresh mind I guess, I just thinking about the obvious parallel between Others raising the dead and red priests resurrecting the dead (the body isn't alive but the person is not mindless so I'm calling it resurrecting). I started watching this series before I could take the reasoning further so I don't know if I would have thought of "fire others" on my own lol but I definitely agree with the idea!
🔥🔥🔥
it's very logical in my opinion
As a Bevis I can attest we do love fire like a lot like fire fire!
Remember in danys vision when she saw the emperors and they had eyes of amethyst, tourmaline, opal, etc?
We have purple eyes valarean, grey eyes stark, blue eyes others and Mel here all having eyes described as stones
I feel like Peter Griffin saying “Ooooh he said it! He said the thing!” every time LML says “other.” 😊
fantastic video. beautiful content which is superbly accentuated by those sick editing skillz. dawg you've leveled up bro spendin those ability points in the right place xD
Haha ability points... thank you!
Another 🔥theory!
Aren’t dragons supposed to be “fire made flesh,” which is the opposite of living ice? Am I a fool for thinking dragons are the equivalent of a fire other?
Great stuff
For me, Melisandre that is unknown where she is during the time of of the new tv show House of the Dragon, is actually in Ashai learning Dark Magic 😉
Banger
Hey David another great video, much love
Legend! Old school as hell!
i wonder if the pond in front of the weirwood at Winterfell is a melted walker
Also, on vic's fire hand. Wasnt it also said that some of the first men came to westoros with "fire in their hand" perhaps they were the early r'hllerists
oh that's kind of interesting yeah
Goat thumbnail
The last line of Sam's slayer moment has me thinking if the soul/mind of the other was absorped by the blade as it literally desolved. The other way around: are the ice weapons of the others able to do the same to fire others? What impact has this ritual murder on the blade and its wielder?