@Šljorgađ Gruđljaf Please show us. Tell us what the Trinity doctrine is and then take is to all these scriptures you have looked closely at. Waiting for you to do the impossible.
@Šljorgađ Gruđljaf Hello Šljorgađ Gruđljaf, Eugene here. Think about what you are saying. You agree that it is impossible to prove it is me or you that is guided by the Holy Spirit in coming to our interpretation. Then you “declare” that Jesus left a church that will not bind its people to heresy. Do you see the problem? I am guessing that the church you are talking about is the Roman Catholic Church. If so, please read the history of that church and you will see that there have been doctrines taught to the people that later Popes changed because they said it was wrong. Then there is the same problem of how are we to decide if what you assert is true? I suggest you look at the seven churches in the book of Revelation. These were churches that Jesus left and some of them did teach false doctrine. No, the problem still is that we have to decide for ourselves what is true and what is false. We should not leave that decision to “a church” and its leaders.
But the same chapter it says "glorify me father with the same glory we shared from the beginning" Jesus was made a little lower then the angels , the Son in a human form is lesser than the Father.
I keep coming back to this video, it's so good! I frequently get told that the church ALWAYS believed in the Trinity, and this video clearly shows that is not true, that the doctrine was slowly added to and developed. It's been a real blessing in my own journey with Christianity to have resources like this to help me see things clearly!
Hello Dean, It's Wonderful That This Is A Great Blessing To YOU! The reason that after 2000 years there has arisen about 35000 different - Supposed "Christian denominations" - IS because a great many of The TRUE Church's(Begun on THE Day Of Pentecost) Spiritual Truths And Principles were confused/lost after only a few decades!! One of these principles was For EACH TRUE BELIEVER or DISCIPLE To MAKE CERTAIN - FOR THEMSELF!! Whether WHAT They'ed just been taught, or had had taught them - Was CORRECT, or NOT! And THEN, And ONLY THEN! Fellowship with - Meet with ONLY THOSE People - Who HAD Made Certain Of GOD'S Word!! To The SAME DILIGENCE as Themself!! And Come Together or Church-group IN THAT WAY!! All - Too - Soon (and Very Much So - Today) People were herded together - en masse - Brought together - In A MOST COUNTERPRODUCTIVE WAY!! For a Long time Now!! There have been a MULTIPLCITY of CONTRADICTORY Thinkings and Ideas! In THE SAME CHURCH! - In THE SAME MIND!! of A Congregation member!! The Churches talk about Being "In One ACCORD"
@@stephenwilford919 Hi, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with me! I think it's very important to find a like-minded church to attend and grow with. But I also think a little diversity of thought is a good thing! It's amazing how Jesus can unify such a diverse world of people under one God!
@@bobbycecere1037 Jesus is King, so yes, whether we like it or not we are united under one King! When Jesus returns to set up the Kingdom on Earth, that's when we will have to account for ourselves and what we did on Jesus' Earth.
@lizzard13666 I disagree that we are in any way actually United. You are correct that we will all Be held to account by the king but that's not the same thing as being United in purpose and dogma. Because we certainly are not. What's going to happen is the Christ is going to, at that time, Separate the sheep from the goats. Those who are actually as followers from those who never will. And I assume the dogma you prescribe to is going to do the separating.
This was on of the first Videos I watched on YT for Christian Topics, that really helped, and I recomend it to everyone on German YT that relies on the "quotations" of "The Trinity before Nicea".
@@bobjames3748 Sorry , I can't find any response with Polycarp as first line. However, as far as I know, are there no existing writings of Polycarp anyway, and no actual proof that what others say or claim to know of him is really indisputable. In anyway, I personally believe that the NT is the Word of God, not how others think it should be interpreted.And as there is no apostolic teaching of a "Trinity" in the actual Word of God, neither something similar or at least quite close to similar, I consider so called "Church fathers" that drift away so obviously from the apostolic truth (see: letters of Paul), simply as errant. Paul , the Steward of the Mysteries of God, does not teach. that Christians should believe in a "Trinity" or that they lose their salvation if they don't believe that "Jesus is God", or that they then should be kicked out of the congregation. All this it is not even as important to him, as teaching them so many other things, that he talks about frequently, although these have nothing to do with the " most important teaching of the trinitarian Churches " . The "Trinity" is actually so "important" to him, that he does not speak of it once. And if the trinitarian Churches would likewise stop to talk about it and stop to teach it so aggressive, with permanent threats of damnation, it would soon be. forgotten like any other manmade idol.....and the Church of Jesus could faithfully return to the apostolic teachings, who feel no obligation themselves to teach or preach or talk about, not even to mention: the "Trinity".
@@feels9421 Perhaps I'm a little more tentative than you. The evolutionists claim that their theory is a "fact", but it seems to fall apart on critical analysis. The theory of gravity seems to have some problems too. How about the "germ theory" - that's under attack.
1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Messiah? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. This man does not deny the Father nor the Son. He affirms both. There is no scripture that states Trinitarianism is a prerequisite for salvation. Holding fast to that concept and slandering a brother in Messiah is idolatrus and wickedness respectively.
@@endtimesareuponus8930Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17) Trinity is blasphemous Catholicism teachings. I pray that you walk away from pagan indoctrination.
Do not quote Paul, he is known for his unfounded claims. He prosecuted the followers of Jesus. Who the hell should believe him when he talks about Jesus?
@@Super25041988 Paul saved the Church from becoming a dreaded hybrid of the old =unempowered Judaism and the new = empowered Christianity. Galatians 2 : 11 - 13 But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. Before some men arrived from James, it was his habit to eat with the gentiles. When they came he withdrew and separated himself, because he was scared of the circumcision party. The rest of the Jews played the hypocrite along with him, so that even Barnabas was led away along with them by their hypocritical actions. The old = Judaism is based on the observance of the 10x Commandments plus, which defines what sin is and the punishments for those sins. The Israelites begged Moses to stop telling them what was and is sin as they knew they were guilty. Capital punishment is very much part of The commandments = The Law and the prospect of being put to death is surely a frightening thing for man. Deuteronomy 18 : 18 - 22 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “ Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.” The LORD said to me : “ What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers ; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” You may say to yourselves. “ How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. DO NOT BE AFRAID OF HIM. God chose not to empower the old in other words He did not provide the HOW to keep His Commandments. The sign/reminder for the Israelites that they were subject to the law was circumcision. When Jesus brought God’s Good News (HOW to obey God and so to escape from the lake of fire) to the Jews and demonstrated he was worthy to exercise God’s power, eg the miracles, the clergy were severely affronted esp when the people more and more started to heed his words and to believe he was the Son of David, the long awaited Messiah. Their power base with its accompanying “perks” was severely threatened so their hatred grew to the murderous extent such that they orchestrated Jesus’s crucifixion. The mood of the people changed when it became obvious Jesus was not about to “ blast “ the Romans ie he wasn’t a physical conqueror rather a spiritual conqueror unrecognized still to this day which was an affront to the extent that the “people” which would have included Jews from all the inhabited world at that time screamed “ Crucify him, we have no king but Caesar” when Pilate presented Jesus to the crowd with a crown of thorns on his head, bleeding, … as from his diabolical scourging to be followed by his even more diabolical crucifixion. Jesus’s physical demise on the cross did not stop Christianity and the clergy declared all Christians herem meaning they were ex-communicated from the Temple, synagogues…and they were to be avoided like the plague. John 16 : 1 - 4 “ I have spoken these things to you in case you should be caused to stumble in the way. They will excommunicate you from the synagogue. Yes, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think that he is rendering a service to God ; and they will do these things because they did not recognize the Father or me. But I have spoken these things to you, so that when their time comes, you will remember that I spoke them to you.” This made it very difficult for the first Christians in Jerusalem to support themselves which is why Paul took up a collection from amongst the gentile churches he founded and brought it to Peter and his founding church. The first Christians were Jews and they had to learn some hard lessons that contradicted what they had drummed into them, ie gentiles were worthy to stoke the fires of hell, no better than the dogs in the street. When the new wont go away it is the way of men that a hybrid be formed, ie a mixture of the old and the new which doesn’t work as Jesus pointed out to John’s disciples. Mark 2 : 21 “ No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new piece will tear away from the old, making the tear worse. And no one pours new wine into old wine-skins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins.” John’s disciples could well have been the circumcision party. because he was scared of the circumcision party. These miscreants offered a demonic compromise on behalf of the “ clergy “ who must not be seen to be interacting with the herem. That compromise was that the gentile Christians be circumcised as a sign that they are subject to the old = the law administered by the demonic clergy who had orchestrated Jesus’s crucifixion which conveniently supported their diabolical assertions that Jesus came in the name of satan, meaning in his heinous spirit, and this compliance took away the pronouncement of herem on the Christians in Jerusalem. The compromise being proposed was no less than an extremely unholy alliance between Jesus and satan!!!!!!!! Paul courageously empowered by Jesus’s spirit reprimanded Peter et al at Antioch and demonstrated he was one of the greatest if not the greatest defender of the faith of all time and to this day. Acts 27 : 23 - 24 “there stood beside me the angel of God, whose i am and whom i serve, saying, ‘have no fear, Paul “ Paul persecuted the early Christians bringing them before the evil Sanhedrin to be stoned to death on their demonic decision. Paul was a Pharisee even taught at the feet of Gamaliel and what he did was as a result of “ brain washing” and his innate desire to worship God. He literally thought he was doing a service to God!!!!! His turnaround at the behest of Jesus pioneered the Damascus Road experience that Jesus’s brothers and sisters experience when they are called out of the “Church” ie saved from the clutches of satan. Thinking comes before doing. Jesus brought the solution to evil thinking which is your conceived with lower human nature that controls you. That solution is access to Jesus’s spirit which is fully fit for the tasks God gives him made so by The Holy Spirit that is God. Jesus teaches you by means of Bible study daily tutored by your guardian angel.
@@mrniusi11 Matthias 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.(F) 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders(Y) to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning(Z) that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming(AA) of the Son of Man.
Hi Sean. Thanks for your talk on the Trinity. Amazing, mind opening and challenging! I admire your courage as you search for the historical truth. I do have a limited theological past and have drifted to a wayward liberal agnostic perspective bordering on being atheistic. Its not about using your thoughts to clobber Christians over the head but to understand and appreciate our Christian heritage more deeply. Thank you.
Yes, I saw this video and it shows me that GOD made the Church reflect for 300 years or so, and come to the conclusion that Jesus is one with the Father (i.e. they are one GOD) as He states in John 17.
Belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation, but it is a great topic for confusion, to create tension within the community of believers, doubt in truth seekers, reason to go your own way, and also opportunity to lead others to the cross. My love for Jesus should speak louder than what I believe. God bless. 🙏
That's beautiful. People have been worshipping doctrine more than God. Most "Christians" claim that they don't fully understand the trinity, but still deem it essential for salvation. I find that strange
Thank you. This is extremely well done. As a 25 yr “conservative Christian”, I never resonated with the concept of Trinity and am only now hearing these sensible arguments for biblical Unitarianism and refutations of Trinitarianism. My question is this - how was the concept of Trinity so well established among the early church that the majority of bishops at the council of Nicea made it doctrine? How could it be that bishops throughout such a large and disparate geographical area believe in it so strongly to almost universally agree upon it, create a “creed”, and banish Arius and his writings?
Christians didn't even believe in the trinity at the council of Nicea. The seeds from which the doctrine grew were planted there but it was at least two hundred more years before that doctrine was formed.
Exactly! People don’t actually read on how this doctrine came about. History people! Not a biblical teaching. The concept of trinity has pagan origins, look it up
@@Jrod510 Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
@@theguyver4934Vegetarians?? You obviously never read the Gospel's. Eating Fish was very common. As for the Trinity. It's a blasphemous teaching. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17) You can take your Allah aka Lucifer and shove off. I pray that you walk away from pagan indoctrination.
Excellent! Well done. Evidence presented with Reasoning and Logic... No big fanfare, elevated by self-important, haughty ego... Mr Finnegan is an excellent teacher.
This is really excellent thank you!!I have believed in "the trinity" for my whole Christian life, (because I believe in God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit) but I have only recently really looked into what that really means, and I have to say Ive been blown away by the biblical evidence for a Unitarian Understanding
Hello Steve Leeder, Eugene here. Your story is almost like mine. My journey started over 20 years ago and was not easy for me. I was afraid that I could be making the mistake of a lifetime that I might never recover from. Now I am satisfied that I made the right choice. I now find it hard to believe that I did not see the truth before, as it is now so plain. If I want to follow Yeshua/Jesus, I ought to make His God and Father, my God and Father. Simple.
Hello steve leeder.your story is just like mine twenty years ago.i questioned a lot on the trinity but the answer i got never satisfy me despite all the beautiful philosophical explaination the priest gave is not from the bible.
Hello Sean Finnegan, Eugene here. Thank you for your work, it has saved me from ignorance about many things that I do not have the time or expertise to search out by myself. I would like to pick through your work and list the reasons these early Christians could not conclude that God was a trinity. What was holding them back? Could it have been that they knew about scriptures that plainly say that there is only one Almighty God allowed and the Father of Jesus is Him?
Eugene, respectfully, recommend you get a King James Bible and pick through IT before turning to a mortal human for knowledge, understanding and wisdom.
@@hewtube99 Hello watchman6 swordbearer3, Eugene here. Thank you for your "respectful" advice. Are you a mortal human? Should I pay any attention to what you advise? Why? You can put your concern about me ONLY searchinng the work of mortal humans like Sean Finnegan because I began life in a home that read and studied the KJV of the Bible. When I learned to read, some time around 6, I read my KJV every day until I was grown. When I was about 25 or so I added the American Standard. Now I am almost 79 I can tell you that I read all 58 versions to compare them. Please tell me why I should be a KJV ONLY reader. I would like for you to also tell Shawn and I exactly where our beliefs are wrong and why. How is it wrong to follow Jesus and read the scripture he read and worship the God he worshiped? How is it right to follow the scribes who never knew Jesus and who followed Plato and reject Paul? I am speaking of the mortal men who created the doctrine of the trinity which is not to be found any place in our KJV. WHY???
@@originalhigene Eugene, forgive delay in getting back to you. Apologize for my short and sharp post to you that had a critical and snarky tone. Offence not intended. I’m not quite your age. Spent last 20 years of my “real” Christian life reading the KJV. My focus also has been on a comparative study between the KJV and 12 other mostly modern versions using 31 verses. Versions compared: ASV, NAS, NRS, NKJV, NIV, ESV, YLT (Young’s Literal Translation), DRA (Douay-Rheims American), NJB (New Jerusalem Bible), GNV (Geneva Bible 1599) and NWT (New World Translation). Verses were assessed on a scale from “missing verses”, “significant differences” to “doctrinal errors”. Analysis reveals every compared version is fraught with errors. Most modern versions indicate the gospel is foolishness (1Cor 1:21); Elhanan killed Golaith (2Sam 21:19); no one (rather than no man) shall pluck them out of my hand (Jn 10:28) . . . speaks to the notion of eternal security. Several more verses could be listed.
All manuscripts available to the King James translators were either fragments or contained errors because they were copies of copies, etc - no originals. The finished product was without provable errors; which should be expected if God is to leave His Church His inerrant word (2Tim 3:16). God’s name is on the cover (one of God’s many names is Jacob (Ps 24:6), a variant of James). Hope the foregoing sheds light on why I am a KJV-ONLY Christian. Regarding the Trinity issue, I observe the discussions focused mainly around whether or not Jesus is God. From that aspect I disagree with the statement it is not addressed in the KJV. Jn 1:1 (“and the Word was God”) and 1Jn 5:7 (“and these three are one”) both speak to the Trinity. Additional verses: Col 1:12-18; 1Jn 3:16 (God laid down his life for us); Jn 8:58 (I AM is in caps vice lower case in other versions); Heb 1:8 (God addresses the Son as “O God”); Titus 2:13 (Looking for appearance of invisible God and Jesus Christ as one entity); Jn 10:30 (Father and Jesus are one). Perhaps some or all the above verses may be taken in a different context or interpreted differently and my case is not made. Assuming the Trinity doctrine is true, I certainly can’t explain how it works; but all I can go by is the evidence-verses above. Noted, with non-KJV bibles it is easier to argue against the Trinity. Notwithstanding, it could be that God doesn’t even want us to probe the issue. It’s a mystery (Col 2:2). There are things He has revealed to us and there are secret things that belong to Him (Dt 29:29). Peace.
@@hewtube99 Hello watchman6 swordbearer3, Eugene here. Pretend that I am having this conversation with a Mormon who holds his holy book written by Joseph Smith with the same kind and degree of devotion that you hold to the KJV. If he made his defensive arguments like yours they would be just as valid as yours. Something is wrong when the same arguments can be used by very different positions and both be conviencing. I see no value comparing the KJV to other English translations with the purpose of proving that the KJV is the one God wrote. All that you can show is that they differ. It will benefit you if you compare the KJV with the KJV and see if it agrees with itself. Try this; open two KJV BIBLES side by side, one to Psalm 40:6 and open the other to Hebrews 10:5. Compare and tell me which verse in your KJV is the verse God intended. Please let me know which one is inspired and without error. Peace
@@originalhigene A bible verse that reads (in essence) that the gospel is foolishness and assessed as just “differing” from other translations could be viewed as an implicit acceptance of the verse and all the other “differings” (errors) throughout that bible version. Jesus said He will judge Christians by the words He has spoken. And there’s no reason to believe otherwise that the Bible He uses to do that will not have errors and He won’t use one that we haven’t had access to before Judgement Day. Contrary to the 99% Christianity, the inerrant word of God does exists! Ps 40:6 and He 10:5 taken in each’s context do not present an issue to me. Whatever is seen as verse contradictions would have to be proven. I see a couple of explanations. Time to exit this Matt Seven forum. Maybe linkup again somewhere other than the Trini’s vs the Uni’s. I wish you strength on your journey to 80 (Ps 90:10). And you and your dog are a pair. Peace.
well done Sean. My focus has been that since the concept of Trinity is not a sacred topic but rather a secular one; any research like this is in pursuit of the "Development of the Trinity" rather than a didactic construct.
God in the old testament = I Am the First and the Last Jesus in the new testament = I Am Alpha and Omega the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. God in Old Testament= there is no god beside me, i even i am God and there is none else. ONE THING GOD DONT DO IS LIE. JESUS IS GOD
Great stuff. I recall Vince Finnegan boldly heralding the trinity as idolatrous 40 years ago. A rare man by not going back to the polytheistic doctrine after all this time.
Bill,. please get in Touch if you Can!! I heard Vince Finnigan Talk - Upstairs in South Park Pavillion - Macclesfield, Cheshire around 1980. A Great Man - GOD!!
The statement, "God the Son" is not in the Christian scriptures. Since the statement is not in scripture, the statement is tradition. Tradition is not made by the One, but my people.
Exactly, it's an oral tradition with no documented source directly linking to Jesus and no proven preservation of the tradition. Trinity is nothing but blind faith.
It is totally untrue to claim that anytime before the Nicea 325AD and Constantinople 381AD the specific creed which states 'there are three persons in one God' or even 'God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit' was ever stated in writing or for that even mentioned. Oh yes there are many 'implications', pointers' inndirect references too' e.t.c Paul said "Do not go BEYOND the things that are written 1 Cor 4:6. Why is that the case? because the 'trinity creed' in not in the bible!
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
I'm thankful that I'm hearing the truth. This subject is so very important. The truth makes sense and it seems the teachings that dont are called "mysteries".
Why ask the church fathers on the deity of Jesus when the Scriptures should be consulted on matters pertaining to the sound doctrine? John 1:1 , 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God... And the Word became made flesh and dwelt among us... John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to hin, “Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed... Romans 9:5 Of whom are fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over-all the eternal blessed God. Amen Titus 2:13 Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and SaviourJesus Christ. Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;...” These are some of the texts whose meaning is plain and simply testifying to the deity of Jesus Christ.
and in fact, we see the Bible speaks of repition. God creates a new people because the old people betrayed. Adam's world ends because he betrayed God -> Noah's world ends because his son sinned -> Moses' world ends (Solomon to pharisees) -> Jesus. And what did Jesus and prophet John say? That Christians would betray like the times of Noah and Lot, and new people would come from east and west to be created into God's new people who truly love HIM more than traditions and false doctrines of men.
That is a true statement. That statement does not give the trinitarian viewpoint any weight, however. On the contrary, that would also invalidate the council of Nicaea.
@@theguyver4934 there is no Trinity. Trinity isn't in the Bible. it's the teaching of men. Believing in is a leap of faith that the Bible doesn't support.
Excellent presentation! The false doctrine of the Trinity & those who teach salvation is dependent on accepting it, is the biggest stumbling block keeping many from being born again today. Most are saved in spite of it, not because of it. I asked a Rabbi why he didn't believe Jesus is the Messiah and he said because Jesus cannot be God, that'd be idolatry. Most telling was Tertullian, calling the majority of believers simple and unlearned, shows the arrogance of those who play around with the simplicity of God's Word and convince others they cannot receive it without their expertise. God desires all men to be saved, salvation is not obscure, complicated or hidden. Simply believe Rom 10:9-10 - so simple, even a child can understand.
Trinitarian belief is not the biggest stumbling block by a long shot. Mostly it’s just having another pre-existing religious belief, most of the world already believes in a different God or something. Indians aren’t chomping at the bit to become Christian’s but the trinity is the one thing putting them off.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
10:39 how did you not see Trinity in this one? He said our God Jesus Christ? How is that not Trinity? I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just trying to understand.
Did the biblical prophets that came before Jesus believe in the trinity? And if they didn't, or were deliberately not informed about it, how did they get their salvation? And if they did get their salvation, can we also be saved without believing Jesus is literally God?
They did not believe in any Trinity, no one in O.T. writings did ,nor did the N.T. Apostles, Disciples and Jesus did not state any teaching or support for such.
Of course OT would not know about the Trinity. It was irrelevant before the incarnation of God in Jesus. If you read the Early Church Fathers there is a clear understanding of The Trinity. And , the fact that the Church battled some early non-Trinitarian heresies supports the early Church belief in the Trinity.
They did not believe in a trinity. They believed in the One true God YHWH, who led their people out of the land of Egypt. They learned and were taught by Gods son, the lord Jesus. Yes you can be saved and born again by believing this bc JESUS IS NOT GOD. HE IS THE SON OF GOD, mighty god and not almighty God
@@michaeljonathan543 there you go, 2 gods, just like Justin. Save Rev 4:8 compared with Rev.1:8,11 shows he is the Lord God Almighty and there is only One God how many times you got to be told? Deut 6:4 ,you bring out Heresy. Zech 12:10 shows YHWH is speaking and he says they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, tell me when was YHWH pierced? Oh yeah...JESUS was LORD.
The Trinity is simply the pagan notion of how God, the One (monad) emanates or evolves (unfolds) into the duad, the triad, then the 7 planets or archangels. Its found in Hinduism, the Kabbalah, Neo-Platonism etc. Its also connected with the 3 aspects of man which Paul speaks of: body, soul, & spirit....a person is one but consists of 3 'persons' or aspects.
Perhaps in paganism but not in the Hebrew bible. The hebrews never believed the bible consisted of 3 in one. The body was the נפש or the soul itself. The רוח or ruach was the breath of God that animated the body. When a person died they ceased to exist and the breath returned to God whom gave it.
@@jeremybravo8486 Hello Jeremy Bravo, Eugene here. Thanks for your comment. When I was a child and believed that I was really an invisible Ghost like being who lived in my body, which was not me, but my "tent", I often wondered exactly "where" in my "tent" did I live. I decided I lived in my head, somewhere behind my eyes. This is the time/place to smile or laugh out loud.
The Pagan Trinity Deities originated from NIMROD the ancient ruler of ancient BABYLON , THE OPPOSER OF JEHOVAH . The bible identifies him ? ? The book THE TWO BABYLONS , by the author . HISLOP . Gives you the ancient origin of the PAGAN TRINITY AND DEITIES , and how they spread throughout the world ? ? ?
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Was there a doctrine of the Trinity in the time of Jesus and His disciples? Answer. The simplest outline of the doctrine was formulated in the 4th century, largely in terms of rejection of what was considered not to be consonant with general Christian belief. Further elaboration continued in the succeeding centuries.[10] Scripture contains neither the word Trinity,[11] nor an expressly formulated doctrine of the Trinity. Rather, according to the Christian theology, it "bears witness to" the activity of a God who can only be understood in Trinitarian terms.[12] The doctrine did not take its definitive shape until late in the fourth century.[13] During the intervening period, various tentative solutions, some more and some less satisfactory, were proposed. 10. "Trinity, doctrine of" in The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (Oxford University Press 2005 ISBN 978-0-19-280290-3) 11. Matt Slick, "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible" 12. McGrath Alister E. Christian Theology: An Introduction Blackwell, Oxford (2001) p.321 13. McGrath, Alister E. Christian Theology: An Introduction Blackwell, Oxford (2001) p.324 The above info answers saying there was NO OFFICIAL Trinity doctrine in the time of Jesus and His disciples, because as we have clearly read. The Trinity doctrine did not take its definitive shape until 300 years later in the 4th century. Question for Trinitarians? As there was NO TRINITY doctrine for over 300 years after Christ, and the Disciples and millions of Christians did not have the TRINITY doctrine as their MAIN faith, but instead believed GOD was ONE GOD AND ONE PERSON ALONE and that Jesus was the SON of GOD. Would this mean the Disciples and millions of Christians, including Jesus who only ever taught His Father was ONE PERSON in Mark 12:29, and that He was GODS SON John 10:36, are they all going to HELL? WHY DO MOST OF CHRISTIANITY BELIEVE IN WHAT WAS NEVER TAUGHT IN THE TIME OF JESUS AND HIS DISCIPLES? No one needs to be a scientist to read the history of the TRINITY, and see how the TRINITY became a NEW RELIGION in the fourth century.
I'm SDA but I'm not more PCG I've listen to all kinds of debates like every Sabbath, I study early church history and you are teaching truth and I like how you do it
I very much appreciate Prof. Finnegan saying around the 49:00 mark that aside from the Scriptures, there is no book that was written that we should hold as "sacred" and binding. The Scriptures are that, but all other writings are the comments of those who, at least in theory, place themselves under the authority of the Scriptures. This is not to say that we should discount the writings of men. I have gotten tremendous value from reading commentaries from Matthew Henry to Dennis Prager. But no matter what is written by us, we need to make sure they are consistent with the Bible. Not that they are consistent with each other. I hope I made myself clear and I apologize if I didn't. I guess what I am trying to say is that we shouldn't "deify" the writings of the original church fathers just because they were written 1800 years ago. Just as in our society we tend to discount the traditions of our elders in favor of the opinions of the young, so many in the church will discount what is being said today in favor of what was written 1800 years ago (or even two generations ago). Age in of itself does not determine truth, nor does it determine how much a person loves the truth. A writer from 275 A.D. can be just as wrong about a spiritual issue as a health-and-wealth preacher today preaching the prosperity gospel. Keep up the good work, sir! God bless you.
@Salomo Thats just your assumption, there is nothing in the bible that says that.. If God said Im sending a basket of fish, if you accept this basket, Ill forgive your sin, that should be enough..
@@theguyver4934 ? You would do well to practice as well as claim, Islam. Then as a revert, you know he was chosen by Allah. Suban Allah. Muslims should know the Prophet (PBUH) said if you can't say something pleasant it's best to be silent.
@@sondrameyer2816 you know a lot of pagan "cross"tians and Hindus calling themselves as muslims in comment sections to deceive layman muslims I have seen lot of them
The problem is that Emporer Constantine ordered all writings of the “heretics” pre Nicea burned. Infant baptism and church membership were required by law, whether you wanted to or not.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
What I’ve learned through studying scripture is that everything is addressed is scripture. It speaks to everything we see today including all of the major heresies. Paul warned us of “different Jesus “as well as the Antichrist but never not to worship Jesus. Scripture is a living word therefore we see it’s application in our life today. We are warned against false gods, idols etc yet it never mentions anything wrong with worshipping Jesus. In fact Philippians 2:9-11 we are to bow to Jesus. Idk guys, I used to be a Jehovah’s Witness and someone couldn’t get me to understand the Trinity for nothing in the world then, now that I’ve woken up from that false religion I’m able to clearly see the amazing mystery of God’s nature. ❤️
@Jackilegs112 alker After having been raised as a 3rd generation JW I believed things that were not scriptural. It took me having to humble myself to acknowledge this. Jesus said we must change and become like children Matthew 18:2-5. This is referring to our conversion in Christ. We must be humble like children to enter the Kingdom of heaven. He does not mean that a child can read the Bible and understand. We cannot understand God’s word using our own interpretation but allowing scripture to interpret itself and allowing ourselves to be led by the Holy Spirit not men, we will have a greater understanding of His word. 1john 2:27 ; 1 Corinthians 2:14. Jesus was not created. The Bible does not teach this. It is an interpretation from men not understanding scripture. So using the discernment we receive from the Holy Spirit and not literal interpretation that we receive from men, we understand that the author wrote in Greek which in the Greek the word “begotten” is “monogenes “ means “one of a kind” or “unique one”. Not created. We see similar language used regarding Abraham’s son Isaac, being his only “begotten “ son. Hebrews 11:17. Yet we know Ishmael was the oldest son so Isaac was not the only son brought into existence. So contextually, we see that the word “begotten” referring to Jesus means “one of a kind” “unique “. Hope this helps.
@Jackilegs112 alker 🙂 funny it’s ironic, I came to truth when I no longer wanted to believe the lie. Jesus said He is the truth and the life no one gets to the Father accept through Him John 14:6. He didn’t say follow men or an organization, which would most certainly cause one to follow a lie. I follow Jesus, therefore I am following truth. See how simple that was? We shouldn’t speak on our own opinion as facts but allow scripture to speak facts and we just listen. There are things that I could say , in my own interpretation, as not making sense but once understood in Spirit , I clearly understand. Two things for sure: The Bible is Gods inspired word and the Bible doesn’t contradict. Keeping that in mind, it lays a foundation and keeps you on the path to truth.
@Jackilegs112 alker yeah I wasn’t a Bible study student. Don’t think I would have ever given them any attention if that’s how I was introduced to it. I was born into this belief system, 3 generations, it’s all I knew. I had to go against all I knew to seek out truth which yeah, took some time, but praise God, I did. The true God is One God. I believe if we know and hold true to the below scriptures we have the correct understanding of God’s nature. Deuteronomy 6:4; John 5:18; Matthew 28:19-20; Luke 3:21-22; Luke 1:35; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 14:26; Genesis 1:26; John 14;16-17; John 1:1-51; Colossians 2:9; 1 John 5:7-8; John 15:26; Ephesians 4:4-6; Isaiah 9:6; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; John 10:30-36; Acts 5:3-4; Genesis 3:22; 1john 5:7; John 8:58; Matthew 3:13-17; Isaiah 46:9; Hebrews 1:3, 8; Luke 22:42 ; Micah 5:2; revelation 1:8; John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 12:11; Job 33:4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Philippians 1:2; Titus 14; Titus 3:6; James 2:19; romans 10:9; psalms 110:1; Thanks for the discussion.
@Jackilegs112 alker Everyone is a Jehovah’s Witness in my family on both sides. I was in field service at 5 years old and baptized at 14. No regrets, it’s God’s purpose as I am now equipped to respond to scripture quotes as John 14:28 since I had to seek it out myself. The scripture John 14:28 was one I used to quote as well amongst so many others, that I thought meant Jesus was not divine. However comparing John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”, it would seem that we’d have a contradiction. However you and I both know that the Bible doesn’t contradict, people do. So to be sure I understood in context I went deeper into the text. While reading about the humility we should have I came across Philippians 2:5-7 “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who as He, already existed in the form of God did not consider equality with God something to be grasped but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bondservant and being born in the likeness is men.” Also Hebrews 1:9 “but we see Him who for a little while, was made lower than the angels ...” Then Colossians 2:9 we learn that Jesus nature is full deity. Which is a divine Being. Also we know that Jesus came to do the will of His Father. John 6:38. So contextually we see that yes , the Father is greater than Jesus in role not nature. They are both divine. Same way as a human father is greater than his son in role but both are human. Jesus shares the same nature as the Father, not the role.
@Jackilegs112 alker I love how you said “Jesus is a derivation of the Father”. That is so true. I completely agree. We see that in John 1:1 “ in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and God was the Word.” John 1:14 we see that the Word became flesh. The Word derived from God so the Word is God. It is the same Being. I’ve read Proverbs 8 in it’s entirety. The very first verse reveals that “wisdom” with a female persona is what the text is speaking of. Yes wisdom is from God. Should we not think that wisdom has always existed in God? One thing I truly see now after I woke up and had to research everything I was taught , is this...what the Trinity truly is. I had such a different picture in my mind of the Trinity than I have now that I’m reborn. I think since we cannot understand the entire Majestic nature of our Holy God Almighty we cannot interpret His Being. This was where I started in my realization of who God truly is. So connecting the dots I said to myself, what does scripture say about who God is? His character, His Divinity, His Eternal existence, His Glory, His Goodness,...? Then I researched to see who else shares these things and could not find anyone else but the One True God. He is the one who is all these things and all these things are in Him. Who has these attributes? The Father - psalm 93:2 The Son - revelation 1:8 The Holy Spirit - psalms 139:7-8 Now I understand why we are to be baptized in the name of the Father , the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Agape love ❤️
To sum up the video or at least the first part: 1. Let's define Trinity so narrowly that nobody before the Council of Chalcedon could possibly be a Trinitarian. 2. If a church father fails to express Trinitarian beliefs (as per #1), let's declare him "not a Trinitarian". 3. If we cannot help acknowledge a Trinitarian statement, either a. declare it a forgery, or b. say that it doesn't count because the same father also made several not so clear statements (per #2).
The trinity is idolatry. How to get born again/saved: Romans 10:9-10 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
I AM A CHRISTADELPHIAN FROM NOTTINGHAM FOREST ROAD, HERE IN NOTTINGHAM WE AS A CHURCH DO NOT HAVE BELIEF IN THE TRINTY, SO THANK YOU SPEAKER THAT WE ARE NOT ALONE ON THIS SUBJECT.
The Trinity prior to the 4th century is clearly an anachronism. The debate was over just how divine Jesus was/is and the manner of God's presence with/in him. I tend to think the majority saw Jesus as a human with a unique relationship to God but some (including Paul) saw him as some form of heavenly being who took on human nature. Either way, Jesus is not God in the full sense of the word. Also I think Origen believed everyone was preexistent
Funny that Paul never met Jesus during Jesus’ time on earth. He CLAIMED to saw Jesus on the road, after the ascension. And Jewish rabbis wonder if Paul was really a Pharisee, why is he persecuting Jesus’ followers..Jews at the time have a bigger problem: Roman Emperor. Christians were minority back then. And Jewish Rabbis doubt that Saul was really a student of Gamaliel.
"For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship--and this is what I am going to proclaim to you." (ACTS 17:23) "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deut. 6:4). "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3) "I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me" (Isaiah 45:5). "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?" (Mat. 22:44). "But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand." (Heb. 10:12) "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman the man; and the head of Christ God." (1Cor. 11:3) "I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30) "the Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38) "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 2:8&9) "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1Tim. 2:5). "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Mat. 16:13-18). "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Mat. 28:19) "So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs." (Heb. 1:4) "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (ACTS 4:10-12) "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:22) "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev 2:29)
All answers is in Scripture. The initial problem was the church adhering to doctrines of men to define its belief system. Study, to show yourselves approved... Study what exactly: The Scriptures! All praise to the Most High Yahuah, the Set-Apart One of Yahsharel.
As a Muslim I find this fascinating to watch. And I do wonder... To the orthodox Unitarians how do you guys view Paul's contribution to Christianity? And how do you guys view upholding of the Jewish law?
I prey that Allah swt helps our christian brothers get rid of the false pagan trinity from this world as fast as possible that way both parties will be satisfied
@@theguyver4934 Did you understand what my initial comment said? Unitarian by definition means that they don't believe in the trinity. So alhamdulillah Allah has already given them this benefit. They're halfway to tawheed. They just need to accept RasoolAllah peace be upon him as their final Prophet
@@anneeq008 - That is a matter of faith why not just prey that christian faith becomes strong and flourish (Biblical unitarianism) that way both parties will be satisfied
That is what Google say . What did your Bible say ? When someone called him " Good Teacher " , jesus replied , " Why do you call me good ?No one is good but one , that is God ". The word " Trinity " can be found nowhere in the Bible The Trinity is an unscriptural context , smuggled into Christendom under unbaptized Roman Constantine by cloak & dagger means . Jesus says to God , " Your word is the truth ". John. 17 :17. But the doctrine of the Trinity is a lie . Here is the lie . " There are three that bear witness in heaven , the Father , the word , & the Holy Spirit & these three are one ". John. 5 :7 . This verse was discovered to be an interpolation , a fabrication . As no such verse were found in the earlier Greek manuscripts by Erasmus . This verse was thrown out of the Bible was retained in the KJV ( Catholic Bible ) & is even found in their Bibles today . Thrown out by 32 Scholars of the highest eminence , backed by 50 leading co operating Christian Denominations . The very fact that Trinitarians found it necessary to smuggle John. 5 :7 into the Bible in order to validate the doctrine of the Trinity shows conclusively that the doctrine is fake .
If the prophets & apostles never taught it, and you are asking me to believe a combination of Greek & Pagan theologians & the Catholic Church which is by far the greatest money laundering scheme of all time 😂 I will just stick to the Bible
@@HotNoob I believe God & Jesus are both "Gods", but that there is a clear hierarchy and that Jesus is subservient to God (YHWH), and not like Trinitarians try to smear & paint those of us who are non-Trinitarians as believing that Jesus was just some guy, and not a immortal being. The Trinitarians have dug their heels in this matter, and think everyone else is going to hell. It is just as difficult to convert a Trinitarian to a Unitarian as it is trying to get a meth or heroin addict to become sober. The fact that 72% of Christians actually believe in the Trinity, tells me that Satan has been exceedingly successful in tricking many well intentioned Christians down a path that won't lead to Heaven. Looking at the world today, and how society is indulging & bathing in sin, as a hog trough full of slop, tells me the 28% is the correct path, because the path towards righteousness & eternal life is a difficult & perilous one. I fully expect that 72% number to grow, and the 28% number to shrink, as our society continues to fall apart, and sin continues to spead & become more prevalent.
@@NeverUkraine i think BU can be compatible with a subservant God, in the right context. Psalms 82:6 Psalm 82 - NIV A psalm of Asaph. 1 God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”: 2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked?[b] 3 Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed. 4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked. 5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ 7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.” 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. Philippians 2:9-11 New International Version 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. it's not entirely incompatible, just listen to christ and pray to the father as christ himself instructed. i think the trinity is a much bigger problem.
Isaiah 40:1-3 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD (Jehovah's) hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God. "Prepare ye the way of the LORD Jehovah, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." And who did John in the spirit of Elijah prepare the way for? As it says, "Make straight in the desert a highway for our God" ~Jesus
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6 (NKJV) 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 20-21 (NKJV) 14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. 2 Corinthians 13:14 (NKJV) 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Acts 5:3-4 (NKJV) The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool. Psalm 110:1 (NKJV) 24 Then the Lord (Son) rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord (Father) out of the heavens. Genesis 19:24 (NKJV) 11 “I (Son) overthrew some of you, As God (Father) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand plucked from the burning; Yet you have not returned to Me,” Says the Lord (Son). Amos 4:11 (NKJV) 8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” 10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” Hebrews 1:8-12 (NKJV)
Thank you for this video. I have been praying and meditating on whether God is Trinity or not. I am leaning against it. I think you sealed it for me in your quote from Tertullian Against Praxias 3 "the MAJORITY of believers' rule of faith withdraws them from the world's plurality of gods to the one only true god" "take themselves pre-eminently the credit of being worshippers of the One God". Tertullian himself is telling us in his own words what the majority of believers of his time believed. People back them believed in many gods existing at the same time. So to believe in One True God was very unique and distinctive. This is what set them apart from everybody else. Therefore, it could only mean exactly what it says....one means one.
@@ronelpalma522 , they knew Jesus was God, something the ignorant Unitarians don't, because they are blinded to the scriptures to see it. Jesus was not just the Son, the man Christ, but was the Father and the comforter, the Holy Spirit.
@@ronelpalma522 , that isn't true. I as a Monarchian also stated as a Modalist see a development of the tritheist idea of Trinitarians in the 2nd century,we see Justin and Athenagoras have a three view, without the wording, Theophilus a philosopher held the trias Greek word (triad in English) but this was a older pagan term and was about 180 a.d. Tertullian coined the word Trinitas ( Trinity in our English) ca 210a.d., so it was 100 yrs before Nicea and though almost 200 years after Christ. But the 1st century and 2nd they didn't have the word or a fully developed doctrine of such. I feel pity for the Unitarians denying and raping from Jesus his complete Deity, they sadly will burn in hell and for all eternity because they were dumb as a rock blinded from the truth and seeing because they had not the spirit of discernment to see him as the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.
The truth is coming to light. In the end, all will know who the One God is and the Man, Jesus. No matter how much you in believe in something else, the truth will always be truth.
Bad tie, you might want to avoid wearing it in future. The talk...wow...really exceptional delivery and content. For my own personal investigation regarding the doctrine of the trinity you answered many questions. I tried reading Polycarp and Irenaeus et al searching for evidence of the trinity and just got bogged down - but this lesson was very validating for me, as well establishing historical context - especially regarding the translations of Origen by Rufinus, thank you.
Probably safe to say that the vast majority of USA Christianity reads and preaches from error-filled modern bible versions and is unaware or fails to believe the inerrant word of God actually exists. Maybe it's the King's english that would be bad for business. Apostate churches are alive and well.
@@deistormmods A Trail of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse: 200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas 250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin) 350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.] 350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.] 350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione 398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism 415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ) 450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are: A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven" B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.] C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.] 500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.] 550 AD Old Latin ms r has it 550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.] 750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it 800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.] 1000s AD miniscule 635 has it 1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin 1300s AD miniscule 629 has it 157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse 1500 AD ms 61 has the verse Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.
Trinity was introduced in 284 AD by a Byzantine monk, in order to join Rome with Constantinople for purposes of commerce and political power in the Mediterranean. The monk sourced the idea from pagan origins in Egypt. This is recorded history that allays endless theories and typically empty opinions. Opinions = cranial flatulence.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Goobers. There obviously was a divide about who Christ was, many saw Him as divine and many saw Him as created. Once Christians could all come together and hash out what the Church would teach, guided by the Holy Spirit, obviously there was more evidence for His claim to be divine. The problem with most on here is you are your highest authority. You personally look at scripture and see the verses that look like Jesus was created and you look at the verses that look like He was Divine / eternal and you make your decision. If you personally think you’re right then u fight and fight your neighbor both claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit. The Church /Orthodoxy not only spoke on that but the canonicity of the Bible as well. Watching all of y’all flop around in what you think scripture means is entertaining. All led by the Holy Spirit right???
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O Israel, YHVH our God is ONE (Echad) The relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit has been a point of discussion for almost 2000 years. In Malachi 3:6 we read that YHVH does not change. Therefore the key to understanding the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be found in the above verse Deuteronomy 6:4. To employ that key we must look at the original language of the text where YHVH is describes as One. The verse is the basis of the Shema which is the fundamental statement of faith for the Jewish people. Most non Messianic Jews have a big problem with the Christian concept of a triune God. The key for both Jews and Christians to learn the correct concept of our God is the word echad. Echad is the Hebrew word for one, but more precisely it means a single entity but made up of more than one part. There is another Hebrew word from the same root - Yachid which means single. The meaning of Echad (more than one part) is a confirmation of the Hebrew word Elohim which is translated as God. Elohim is a plural word - more than one being called God There is one more clear proof of the truine nature of the God of Israel. Isaiah 48:16 And now YHVH and His Ruach (Spirit) have sent Me (an eternal person speaking in verse 12 and 16 - Yeshua) Three entities can be clearly seen in that verse. The nature of God is a mystery, but we can clearly see that although God is Echad, He is much more than that - He is Echad and He is Elohim - Hallelu YAH
I watched Finnegan's video, and I read your claim. Just my opinion, but what you claim is "clear" is not clear. Maybe it's "clear" to you, but it's not "clear" to me. On a technical scholarly note, may I respectfully suggest that you put your bible quotes in "quotation marks" so that people can determine whether your claims are actually scriptural - or just your own. And it might also be best if you identify the translation version of whatever bible you use. (Like KJV or NEB, or NET). I suppose it might be best to that you identify the publication date of whatever bible source you use as well, because apparently there's significant differences. Oh uh, BTW, you know Newton? He did an interesting test on what was "clear". Newton passed "clear" light through a prism, and discovered it was not really "clear", it was actually an assembly of many different light wave lengths. Point is, what you think in your brain is "clear" may actually be something else, especially to people who see things differently.
I’m not against trinity, but Yachid does not mean single one, as you say. The Hebrew Echad is like English in that is can mean one in number or in unity. It is just as ambiguos as English, and does not clear this up.
I absolutely believe that God is a God so awesome in power and glory that He has within Himself three avenues through which He moves. These avenues of God are: the will of God (the Father), the part which fulfills His will (the Word, or the Son), and the part which establishes His will (Holy Ghost) Each avenue has a specific purpose which only It can accomplish. And, because God's glory is so powerfully thick, these avenues have power potent enough to move on their own so that they can accomplish their purposes. Because of that, it seems the avenues are separate; but since they are extensions of God, they are in no way separate from Him. Even in the case of God extending the avenue of His Word into becoming flesh, the Messiah, even that extension is still God. And God is still a spirit even though a part of Him has become flesh- Jesus.
The bible clearly states that Jesus eternally existed with the Father. If you read the early church father quotes on pause before Sean slaughters them with his own point of view it becomes clear that these early Christians held Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the same regard as the Father. I comment directly to you in order to encourage you do not be missled by these teachings.
@@homegrownfitnessequipment4602There are no church fathers. The Word of God says, Call no man Father, you have one Father which is in heaven. Moreover, they were not Apostles, some became heretics (see Tertullian and Montanist heresy). We have the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, and no teaching of a trinity. It is difficult to be objective concerning the trinitarian doctrine, having been indoctrinated by it. God is a spirit, not a man, nor a person as defined by our dictionaries as a human individual. Moreover, Jesus is the Son that was to be given according to the revelation of the prophecy in Isaiah 9 :6. The point is that the Son is the Everlasting Father, Mighty God. Wherefore, the Son is the Father, the Son and the Father are one, they are the same according to this scripture. We don't want to say it because of the trinitarian indoctrination. But it is true that the Son is the Everlasting Father, and they are the same, because they are one. Jesus said it, I and my Father are one, and if you have seen, you have seen the Father. We should rather teach that there is one God, than harp on this false doctrine that God is three persons. Know this, we know in part 1Cor13, and now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face, and we shall know even as we are known 1Cor13 :12. And also, When God shall appear, we shall be like him, and we shall see him as he is 1Jn 3 :2. The trinitarian doctrine was born out of the pride of men. Because the revelation of the mystery of God as he is has not yet been given. And they have taken this sacred mystery and created their own revelation by reason of their pride and lack of humility. Words cannot reveal this mystery, but Jesus will us the only Potentate, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lord's, who dwells in the light that no man can approach unto, whom no man has seen, neither can see 1Tim6:14-16. Grace and peace be multiplied through the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus.
@@allanfada9830 Jesus is the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, meaning theirs nothing before him, or after him. Revelation 22:12-13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. ~Jesus
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
John 1:10 how do you explain that verse? He was in the world and he create the world and the world new him not. Jesus is the eternal father and son at the same time. I am oneness apostolic
Because Christ isn't the word, it is in him. He didn't create the world, his Father did alone in accordance to his word. The world was made by or in accordance to the word which provided for a Christ messiah to come. Everything was ordered around that from the beginning.
Here's the problems with the phrase "Jesus is God".1. Paul said God is the head (in authority) of Jesus Christ.2. God created Jesus Christ.3.Jesus said God sent him.4 Jesus said God gave him the power to raise himself from the grave. 5. Paul said God was the God of Jesus Christ.
God doesnt need to believe in anything, it's everything which need to believe in God, making it crystal clear that Yesus never was, never is and never will be God. As he always claimed himself, just like Muhammad after him, and like many other prophets before him, he was merely a prophet of God. And he submitted himself to the one and only God, the Almighty, which means he was a muslim, just like all other prophets of God.
@@iansaeed8210 Did Mohammad raise himself from the dead ? Did Mohammad abstain from sex ? Did Mohammad pick 12 apostles ? Did Mohammad get put on trial and Asked “are You the Son of God ?” Did Mohammad answer, “I am”
@@PInk77W1 hmm Muslims don't believe Mohammed was God. He was just a human with a message like other prophets. Muslims believe in Jesus miracles but with permission from God. So Jesus is not different from other prophets. From Muslim point of view. Christians like to compare Jesus with Mohammed, we Muslims are not allowed to do that. Quran 002:136 Say: We believe in God and that which had been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
What about Pope St. Dionysius' Epistle against the tritheists and Sabellians written in AD 260? The doctrine of the Trinity is already highly developed here.
All Christians believe in the 3 entities, including unitarians and Jehovah’s Witnesses… the issue is whether they are all persons, and whether they are all equal. In a sense, they are all ‘god’ or ‘divine’… if using the meanings of those expressions in the original languages. The spirit is Gods active force, so it’s obviously holy and ‘part’ of God. See Psalm 33;6 about Gods Spirit used in Creation. 1 Sam 16; 13-23 showing God has a bad spirit too. Also Isaiah 40 onwards says a lot about Gods Spirit, the way the Jews have always believed… not a Person.
The clarified definition of trinitarian theology did indeed evolve in terms of language, but not on the premise of who Jesus' followers believed Him to be. The language and further clarity on the doctrine was developed as a response to heresies that were popping up, like gnosticism. If Jesus isn't the mighty God, Christianity is blasphemy. If Jesus is the same as the Father, Christianity is insane. But if you fully understand the trinitarian doctrine, it solves theological gaps that might lead to blasphemous or nonsensical conclusions. Nobody has seen God, yet the Angel of the Lord(Yahweh) would appear to people and they would survive, though terrified they would die because they had "seen God". What this demonstrates is that nobody can see the Father, which is the raw source of God's being, but when the Word of God, His angel, is sent to represent Him as His expressed image, then people can apparently "see God" and live 🤔 This is why Jesus said nobody has seen the Father except him. That nobody knows the father except the Son and nobody knows the Son except the Father. This is why also when Phillip asks Jesus to show them the Father, he said "have "I" not been with you so long snd you still don't recognize ME? If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." He also claims to have seem Abraham and then claims Eternal existence by saying before Abraham was "I AM". The one who visited Abraham was Jehovah. In Genesis it says Jehovah on Earth rained down fire and brimstone from the Jehovah in heaven. If the Trinity isn't true, then I can't in good conscience remain a Christian and the entirety of my religion would no longer make sense. This video avoids a lot of the evidence you would find in the Bible and the early Church Fathers that would demonstrate the trinitarian paradigm..
The conversation should be about, one thing, is the son the same individual INDIVIDUAL! AS THE FATHER? They set a trap of multiple words that have multiple definitions like substance, nature, essence, these words are not in the Bible and have no specific meaning, that is how the Trinity is a mystery, because it is a mystery to what those words mean, I studied for 2 solid years to see if the Trinity lines up with the bible, I watched hundreds of of videos read all the creeds, my conclusion is don't believe anything that is not in the Bible. The bible is written for the common uneducated person or child and when they read the bible without mans influence they walk away believing Mary gave birth to the son of God and his name is Jesus, Jesus prayed to the Father, the Father gave power to his son, if the Father and Son are one individual, there is no Son of God, so ask your trinitarians if the father and son are the same individual? Hold them to a yes or no answer, otherwise they will start saying he is the substance, nature, essence . They need to know who Jesus is because eternal life is only received by believing on the son. All judgement was put in the hands of the son, Jesus.
@@theguyver4934 Everything is in God's good time and I suggest He gives more than enough time for "Christians" to realize their gross error perpetrated on behalf of satan to explain to himself that Jesus has to be God to be able to dismiss his demons from every human that hears evangelism from Jesus through his worthy representative.
@@theguyver4934 When Jesus was hideously crucified, murdered like all the previous prophets the moment he died God empowered him to be able to dismiss the demon from everyone's lower human nature inserted into Adam and Eve when Jesus and his committee of angels including satan and his scum made man supposedly to God's plan which was for man to be an angel thinking like Jesus ie Melchizedek in the time of Abram. satan and his awful crew surreptiously they thought inserted the lower human nature that was further infected by a demon after Eve succumbed to satan and then Adam succumbed to Eve. From then on all humans are born fallen angels materialized subject to satan through his demon. God allows satan to corrupt His "work" and why He allows that is God's business. However this destruction and wretchedness spiritually and physically will end in God's good time at the second resurrection when satan and his own will be forced to exist eternally in their own allocated space torturing one another and those they instinctively hated will live eternally in the paradise that will be the New Jerusalem.
Although I agree with his position, and I can't deny what the early church fathers said before nicea, even though I wanted the clear statement that proves the trinity I have a contention... how is it possible that for over 300 years, the trinity as we understand it was not on the radar of any believer, and all the sources he pointed out goes towards other understanding, that suddenly, in one single council, now it gets define as the understanding we have today if there was not any supposition to be like that to begin with?
I'm a new Christian, I grew up a JW with the belief that God is one. Now that I've left them and truly turned my life over to Christ, I wrestle with the notion of the trinity. I have a few scriptures that seem to support it. I'm not trying to be argumentative in the slightest; I am honestly curious and could use some help. John 10:29,30 Jesus says my father is greater than all,,I and the father are one. John 2:19. Jesus says that he will raise himself up, not God..he says I will John 8:19 they ask where his father is..where? He replys if you knew me, you would also know my father. They ask where his father is, he says right in front of you Revelation 1:8 God is Alpha and Omega Revelation 1:17,18 Jesus says I am the first and the last. I would really like clarification on these scriptures. God bless and thank you for helping out a new student of Christ. Also, are all Unitarians ok with same sex marriage, or is that a church by church thing. Thanks again
Since you are new to Christianity, you should understand that the New Testament was NOT written by Jesus. When Jesus was preaching, nobody was writing down what he said. So just imagine how anyone can remember his exact words 40 to 70 years later by the time somebody decided to write down stuffs about Jesus. The New Testament is a collection of writings about the THEOLOGY of the various authors regarding Jesus and his ministry. They are quoting words allegedly spoken by Jesus, to make their Theology authoritative so nobody would question them. But as you can see, we have no indisputable record of any eyewitness who wrote down Jesus' words as he spoke.
@@TheEchoeman But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and *will remind you of everything I have said to you* .
@@user-xb5oo5dd4f The Holy Spirit is not who you think he is. He did remind us of all that was taught by Jesus and all the prophets before him. You just did not accept when he did.
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Truth doesn't evolve. Lies of men do.
Excellent thought... an epiphany of sorts.... One of those things we 'know' but have often not given solid thought to....👍
@@redbird8867 True Red Bird. You understand and see and that is a blessing from the Father.
@Šljorgađ Gruđljaf Please show us. Tell us what the Trinity doctrine is and then take is to all these scriptures you have looked closely at. Waiting for you to do the impossible.
@Šljorgađ Gruđljaf how do you test if someone is actually "inspired by the Holy Spirit" or just making up things?
@Šljorgađ Gruđljaf
Hello Šljorgađ Gruđljaf, Eugene here.
Think about what you are saying. You agree that it is impossible to prove it is me or you that is guided by the Holy Spirit in coming to our interpretation. Then you “declare” that Jesus left a church that will not bind its people to heresy. Do you see the problem? I am guessing that the church you are talking about is the Roman Catholic Church. If so, please read the history of that church and you will see that there have been doctrines taught to the people that later Popes changed because they said it was wrong. Then there is the same problem of how are we to decide if what you assert is true? I suggest you look at the seven churches in the book of Revelation. These were churches that Jesus left and some of them did teach false doctrine. No, the problem still is that we have to decide for ourselves what is true and what is false. We should not leave that decision to “a church” and its leaders.
Jesus says JOHN 14 .28 The Father is greater than me ! Thats it for me,No more debate subject closed.
Great Video by the way.
Yeah, the King of the Netherlands is more than me. However we are both completely human beings and equal. Subject closed...
@@hartmanout150 Well you’re both human. That wouldn’t be an accurate comparison to the Father and the Son.
But the same chapter it says "glorify me father with the same glory we shared from the beginning" Jesus was made a little lower then the angels , the Son in a human form is lesser than the Father.
@@trethevillain Incorrect, it can be applied to the Father and the Son since they are both of the same substance- both divine, both God.
@@amydelafuente9423 The Son is not divine.
I keep coming back to this video, it's so good! I frequently get told that the church ALWAYS believed in the Trinity, and this video clearly shows that is not true, that the doctrine was slowly added to and developed. It's been a real blessing in my own journey with Christianity to have resources like this to help me see things clearly!
Hello Dean, It's Wonderful That This Is A Great Blessing To YOU! The reason that after 2000 years there has arisen about 35000 different - Supposed "Christian denominations" - IS because a great many of The TRUE Church's(Begun on THE Day Of Pentecost) Spiritual Truths And Principles were confused/lost after only a few decades!! One of these principles was For EACH TRUE BELIEVER or DISCIPLE To MAKE CERTAIN - FOR THEMSELF!! Whether WHAT They'ed just been taught, or had had taught them - Was CORRECT, or NOT! And THEN, And ONLY THEN! Fellowship with - Meet with ONLY THOSE People - Who HAD Made Certain Of GOD'S Word!! To The SAME DILIGENCE as Themself!! And Come Together or Church-group IN THAT WAY!! All - Too - Soon (and Very Much So - Today) People were herded together - en masse - Brought together - In A MOST COUNTERPRODUCTIVE WAY!! For a Long time Now!! There have been a MULTIPLCITY of CONTRADICTORY Thinkings and Ideas! In THE SAME CHURCH! - In THE SAME MIND!! of A Congregation member!! The Churches talk about Being "In One ACCORD"
@@stephenwilford919 Hi, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with me! I think it's very important to find a like-minded church to attend and grow with. But I also think a little diversity of thought is a good thing! It's amazing how Jesus can unify such a diverse world of people under one God!
@@lizzard13666
U actually believe this world is united?
@@bobbycecere1037 Jesus is King, so yes, whether we like it or not we are united under one King! When Jesus returns to set up the Kingdom on Earth, that's when we will have to account for ourselves and what we did on Jesus' Earth.
@lizzard13666
I disagree that we are in any way actually United. You are correct that we will all Be held to account by the king but that's not the same thing as being United in purpose and dogma. Because we certainly are not.
What's going to happen is the Christ is going to, at that time, Separate the sheep from the goats.
Those who are actually as followers from those who never will. And I assume the dogma you prescribe to is going to do the separating.
This was on of the first Videos I watched on YT for Christian Topics, that really helped, and I recomend it to everyone on German YT that relies on the "quotations" of "The Trinity before Nicea".
See my response to Sean F. With Polycarp as first line.
@@bobjames3748
Sorry , I can't find any response with Polycarp as first line.
However, as far as I know, are there no existing writings of Polycarp anyway, and no actual proof that what others say or claim to know of him is really indisputable.
In anyway, I personally believe that the NT is the Word of God, not how others think it should be interpreted.And as there is no apostolic teaching of a "Trinity" in the actual Word of God, neither something similar or at least quite close to similar, I consider so called "Church fathers" that drift away so obviously from the apostolic truth (see: letters of Paul), simply as errant.
Paul , the Steward of the Mysteries of God, does not teach. that Christians should believe in a "Trinity" or that they lose their salvation if they don't believe that "Jesus is God", or that they then should be kicked out of the congregation. All this it is not even as important to him, as teaching them so many other things, that he talks about frequently, although these have nothing to do with the " most important teaching of the trinitarian Churches " .
The "Trinity" is actually so "important" to him, that he does not speak of it once.
And if the trinitarian Churches would likewise stop to talk about it and stop to teach it so aggressive, with permanent threats of damnation, it would soon be. forgotten like any other manmade idol.....and the Church of Jesus could faithfully return to the apostolic teachings, who feel no obligation themselves to teach or preach or talk about, not even to mention: the "Trinity".
Why it is so difficult for christian to believe that god is only one. Previous prophets believe in one god not trinity.
Fantastic lecture and super research thank you! When I tell "Christians" about unitarian theory they look at me like I'm from Mars.
Hello your reply
It's not theory brother, its truth!
@@feels9421 Perhaps I'm a little more tentative than you. The evolutionists claim that their theory is a "fact", but it seems to fall apart on critical analysis. The theory of gravity seems to have some problems too. How about the "germ theory" - that's under attack.
@@feels9421 the church is the ground and pillar of truth.
1 Tim 3:15
The church teaches the Trinity
😂😆 Lol!!
Wow. Incredibly informative. I love the way you teach. We need more men like you to give us Biblical truths.
This man speaks evil.
God is a triune God.
Jesus Christ IS Lord !
1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Messiah? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
This man does not deny the Father nor the Son. He affirms both. There is no scripture that states Trinitarianism is a prerequisite for salvation. Holding fast to that concept and slandering a brother in Messiah is idolatrus and wickedness respectively.
What truth??? He doesn’t even understand what he is reading 😂
@@endtimesareuponus8930Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
Trinity is blasphemous Catholicism teachings. I pray that you walk away from pagan indoctrination.
Show me where Jesus mentioned the trinity or he says the son is equal to God.
1 Corinthians 11 : 3 " I want you to know that Jesus is the head of man and man is head of woman and GOD is the head of Jesus. "
Do not quote Paul, he is known for his unfounded claims. He prosecuted the followers of Jesus. Who the hell should believe him when he talks about Jesus?
@@Super25041988 Paul saved the Church from becoming a dreaded hybrid of the old =unempowered Judaism and the new = empowered Christianity.
Galatians 2 : 11 - 13 But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. Before some men arrived from James, it was his habit to eat with the gentiles. When they came he withdrew and separated himself, because he was scared of the circumcision party. The rest of the Jews played the hypocrite along with him, so that even Barnabas was led away along with them by their hypocritical actions.
The old = Judaism is based on the observance of the 10x Commandments plus, which defines what sin is and the punishments for those sins. The Israelites begged Moses to stop telling them what was and is sin as they knew they were guilty. Capital punishment is very much part of The commandments = The Law and the prospect of being put to death is surely a frightening thing for man.
Deuteronomy 18 : 18 - 22 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “ Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.” The LORD said to me : “ What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers ; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” You may say to yourselves. “ How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. DO NOT BE AFRAID OF HIM.
God chose not to empower the old in other words He did not provide the HOW to keep His Commandments.
The sign/reminder for the Israelites that they were subject to the law was circumcision.
When Jesus brought God’s Good News (HOW to obey God and so to escape from the lake of fire) to the Jews and demonstrated he was worthy to exercise God’s power, eg the miracles, the clergy were severely affronted esp when the people more and more started to heed his words and to believe he was the Son of David, the long awaited Messiah. Their power base with its accompanying “perks” was severely threatened so their hatred grew to the murderous extent such that they orchestrated Jesus’s crucifixion.
The mood of the people changed when it became obvious Jesus was not about to “ blast “ the Romans ie he wasn’t a physical conqueror rather a spiritual conqueror unrecognized still to this day which was an affront to the extent that the “people” which would have included Jews from all the inhabited world at that time screamed “ Crucify him, we have no king but Caesar” when Pilate presented Jesus to the crowd with a crown of thorns on his head, bleeding, … as from his diabolical scourging to be followed by his even more diabolical crucifixion.
Jesus’s physical demise on the cross did not stop Christianity and the clergy declared all Christians herem meaning they were ex-communicated from the Temple, synagogues…and they were to be avoided like the plague.
John 16 : 1 - 4 “ I have spoken these things to you in case you should be caused to stumble in the way. They will excommunicate you from the synagogue. Yes, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think that he is rendering a service to God ; and they will do these things because they did not recognize the Father or me. But I have spoken these things to you, so that when their time comes, you will remember that I spoke them to you.”
This made it very difficult for the first Christians in Jerusalem to support themselves which is why Paul took up a collection from amongst the gentile churches he founded and brought it to Peter and his founding church.
The first Christians were Jews and they had to learn some hard lessons that contradicted what they had drummed into them, ie gentiles were worthy to stoke the fires of hell, no better than the dogs in the street.
When the new wont go away it is the way of men that a hybrid be formed, ie a mixture of the old and the new which doesn’t work as Jesus pointed out to John’s disciples.
Mark 2 : 21 “ No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new piece will tear away from the old, making the tear worse. And no one pours new wine into old wine-skins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins.”
John’s disciples could well have been the circumcision party. because he was scared of the circumcision party.
These miscreants offered a demonic compromise on behalf of the “ clergy “ who must not be seen to be interacting with the herem. That compromise was that the gentile Christians be circumcised as a sign that they are subject to the old = the law administered by the demonic clergy who had orchestrated Jesus’s crucifixion which conveniently supported their diabolical assertions that Jesus came in the name of satan, meaning in his heinous spirit, and this compliance took away the pronouncement of herem on the Christians in Jerusalem.
The compromise being proposed was no less than an extremely unholy alliance between Jesus and satan!!!!!!!!
Paul courageously empowered by Jesus’s spirit reprimanded Peter et al at Antioch and demonstrated he was one of the greatest if not the greatest defender of the faith of all time and to this day.
Acts 27 : 23 - 24 “there stood beside me the angel of God, whose i am and whom i serve, saying, ‘have no fear, Paul “
Paul persecuted the early Christians bringing them before the evil Sanhedrin to be stoned to death on their demonic decision.
Paul was a Pharisee even taught at the feet of Gamaliel and what he did was as a result of “ brain washing” and his innate desire to worship God. He literally thought he was doing a service to God!!!!!
His turnaround at the behest of Jesus pioneered the Damascus Road experience that Jesus’s brothers and sisters experience when they are called out of the “Church” ie saved from the clutches of satan.
Thinking comes before doing.
Jesus brought the solution to evil thinking which is your conceived with lower human nature that controls you.
That solution is access to Jesus’s spirit which is fully fit for the tasks God gives him made so by The Holy Spirit that is God.
Jesus teaches you by means of Bible study daily tutored by your guardian angel.
@@Super25041988 Paul was tranformed, Paul had authority from Christ and God.
@@mrniusi11 Matthias 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.(F) 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders(Y) to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning(Z) that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming(AA) of the Son of Man.
@@Super25041988 Paul did not contradict Christ or God. He did not lead any astray but made God's teachings clear to those following traditions of men.
Hi Sean. Thanks for your talk on the Trinity. Amazing, mind opening and challenging! I admire your courage as you search for the historical truth. I do have a limited theological past and have drifted to a wayward liberal agnostic perspective bordering on being atheistic. Its not about using your thoughts to clobber Christians over the head but to understand and appreciate our Christian heritage more deeply. Thank you.
“Some of you owe me an apology” - Joseph Smith probably
Hey Boomer!!! Glad to see you here 😀
Excellent analysis. All Trinitarians need to see this video.
Not necessarily.
We know you are WRONG.
Jesus Christ Is God.
Yes, I saw this video and it shows me that GOD made the Church reflect for 300 years or so, and come to the conclusion that Jesus is one with the Father (i.e. they are one GOD) as He states in John 17.
You need to see my post to Sean , it has word Polycarp in hearing first wird
I see this video and it proves you, people, are antichrists.
Belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation, but it is a great topic for confusion, to create tension within the community of believers, doubt in truth seekers, reason to go your own way, and also opportunity to lead others to the cross. My love for Jesus should speak louder than what I believe. God bless. 🙏
That's beautiful. People have been worshipping doctrine more than God. Most "Christians" claim that they don't fully understand the trinity, but still deem it essential for salvation. I find that strange
😐
Awesome video. Makes us wrestle with our convictions and understand even how a philosophical, scientifical investigation develops.
Thank you. This is extremely well done. As a 25 yr “conservative Christian”, I never resonated with the concept of Trinity and am only now hearing these sensible arguments for biblical Unitarianism and refutations of Trinitarianism.
My question is this - how was the concept of Trinity so well established among the early church that the majority of bishops at the council of Nicea made it doctrine? How could it be that bishops throughout such a large and disparate geographical area believe in it so strongly to almost universally agree upon it, create a “creed”, and banish Arius and his writings?
Christians didn't even believe in the trinity at the council of Nicea. The seeds from which the doctrine grew were planted there but it was at least two hundred more years before that doctrine was formed.
Wrong.
Dead wrong!!!
Exactly! People don’t actually read on how this doctrine came about. History people! Not a biblical teaching. The concept of trinity has pagan origins, look it up
@@Jrod510 Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
@@theguyver4934Vegetarians?? You obviously never read the Gospel's. Eating Fish was very common.
As for the Trinity. It's a blasphemous teaching.
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
You can take your Allah aka Lucifer and shove off. I pray that you walk away from pagan indoctrination.
I am delighted to find you on youtube regarding this topic of trinity. Thanks
Great crushing exposure of Rufinus' evil hand.
This is so clear, no 'mystery' involved. 1 Corinthians 14:33
Excellent! Well done. Evidence presented with Reasoning and Logic... No big fanfare, elevated by self-important, haughty ego... Mr Finnegan is an excellent teacher.
I prey that Yahweh helps get rid of the false pagan trinity from this world as fast as possible and Christendom will flourish
@@theguyver4934 You may find Ken Raggio's teachings of an interest to you. May God richly bless those who truly desire God's Truth.
@@redbird8867 - I prey that Yahweh's takes down the trinity and through his holy spirit bring rise to biblical unitarianism
See my response to Sean F. The heading line has Polycarp on it
@@theguyver4934Monarchianism is that truth. See my response to Sean F. It has Polycarp as first word in heading
This is really excellent thank you!!I have believed in "the trinity" for my whole Christian life, (because I believe in God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit) but I have only recently really looked into what that really means, and I have to say Ive been blown away by the biblical evidence for a Unitarian Understanding
Hello Steve Leeder, Eugene here. Your story is almost like mine. My journey started over 20 years ago and was not easy for me. I was afraid that I could be making the mistake of a lifetime that I might never recover from. Now I am satisfied that I made the right choice. I now find it hard to believe that I did not see the truth before, as it is now so plain. If I want to follow Yeshua/Jesus, I ought to make His God and Father, my God and Father. Simple.
Its very complex
Hello steve leeder.your story is just like mine twenty years ago.i questioned a lot on the trinity but the answer i got never satisfy me despite all the beautiful philosophical explaination the priest gave is not from the bible.
@@originalhigene Jesus Christ IS God.
@@mohdnorsyarafiabdullah3144 I don't follow priests.
Jesus Christ IS God.
Hello Sean Finnegan, Eugene here. Thank you for your work, it has saved me from ignorance about many things that I do not have the time or expertise to search out by myself. I would like to pick through your work and list the reasons these early Christians could not conclude that God was a trinity. What was holding them back? Could it have been that they knew about scriptures that plainly say that there is only one Almighty God allowed and the Father of Jesus is Him?
Eugene, respectfully, recommend you get a King James Bible and pick through IT before turning to a mortal human for knowledge, understanding and wisdom.
@@hewtube99 Hello watchman6 swordbearer3, Eugene here. Thank you for your "respectful" advice. Are you a mortal human?
Should I pay any attention to what you advise? Why? You can put your concern about me ONLY searchinng the work of mortal humans like Sean Finnegan because I began life in a home that read and studied the KJV of the Bible. When I learned to read, some time around 6, I read my KJV every day until I was grown. When I was about 25 or so I added the American Standard. Now I am almost 79 I can tell you that I read all 58 versions to compare them. Please tell me why I should be a KJV ONLY reader. I would like for you to also tell Shawn and I exactly where our beliefs are wrong and why. How is it wrong to follow Jesus and read the scripture he read and worship the God he worshiped? How is it right to follow the scribes who never knew Jesus and who followed Plato and reject Paul? I am speaking of the mortal men who created the doctrine of the trinity which is not to be found any place in our KJV. WHY???
@@originalhigene Eugene, forgive delay in getting back to you. Apologize for my short and sharp post to you that had a critical and snarky tone. Offence not intended. I’m not quite your age. Spent last 20 years of my “real” Christian life reading the KJV. My focus also has been on a comparative study between the KJV and 12 other mostly modern versions using 31 verses. Versions compared: ASV, NAS, NRS, NKJV, NIV, ESV, YLT (Young’s Literal Translation), DRA (Douay-Rheims American), NJB (New Jerusalem Bible), GNV (Geneva Bible 1599) and NWT (New World Translation).
Verses were assessed on a scale from “missing verses”, “significant differences” to “doctrinal errors”.
Analysis reveals every compared version is fraught with errors. Most modern versions indicate the gospel is foolishness (1Cor 1:21); Elhanan killed Golaith (2Sam 21:19); no one (rather than no man) shall pluck them out of my hand (Jn 10:28) . . . speaks to the notion of eternal security. Several more verses could be listed.
All manuscripts available to the King James translators were either fragments or contained errors because they were copies of copies, etc - no originals. The finished product was without provable errors; which should be expected if God is to leave His Church His inerrant word (2Tim 3:16). God’s name is on the cover (one of God’s many names is Jacob (Ps 24:6), a variant of James). Hope the foregoing sheds light on why I am a KJV-ONLY Christian.
Regarding the Trinity issue, I observe the discussions focused mainly around whether or not Jesus is God.
From that aspect I disagree with the statement it is not addressed in the KJV. Jn 1:1 (“and the Word was God”) and 1Jn 5:7 (“and these three are one”) both speak to the Trinity. Additional verses: Col 1:12-18; 1Jn 3:16 (God laid down his life for us); Jn 8:58 (I AM is in caps vice lower case in other versions); Heb 1:8 (God addresses the Son as “O God”); Titus 2:13 (Looking for appearance of invisible God and Jesus Christ as one entity); Jn 10:30 (Father and Jesus are one).
Perhaps some or all the above verses may be taken in a different context or interpreted differently and my case is not made. Assuming the Trinity doctrine is true, I certainly can’t explain how it works; but all I can go by is the evidence-verses above. Noted, with non-KJV bibles it is easier to argue against the Trinity. Notwithstanding, it could be that God doesn’t even want us to probe the issue. It’s a mystery (Col 2:2). There are things He has revealed to us and there are secret things that belong to Him (Dt 29:29). Peace.
@@hewtube99 Hello watchman6 swordbearer3, Eugene here. Pretend that I am having this conversation with a Mormon who holds his holy book written by Joseph Smith with the same kind and degree of devotion that you hold to the KJV. If he made his defensive arguments like yours they would be just as valid as yours. Something is wrong when the same arguments can be used by very different positions and both be conviencing. I see no value comparing the KJV to other English translations with the purpose of proving that the KJV is the one God wrote. All that you can show is that they differ. It will benefit you if you compare the KJV with the KJV and see if it agrees with itself. Try this; open two KJV BIBLES side by side, one to Psalm 40:6 and open the other to Hebrews 10:5. Compare and tell me which verse in your KJV is the verse God intended. Please let me know which one is inspired and without error. Peace
@@originalhigene A bible verse that reads (in essence) that the gospel is foolishness and assessed as just “differing” from other translations could be viewed as an implicit acceptance of the verse and all the other “differings” (errors) throughout that bible version. Jesus said He will judge Christians by the words He has spoken. And there’s no reason to believe otherwise that the Bible He uses to do that will not have errors and He won’t use one that we haven’t had access to before Judgement Day. Contrary to the 99% Christianity, the inerrant word of God does exists!
Ps 40:6 and He 10:5 taken in each’s context do not present an issue to me. Whatever is seen as verse contradictions would have to be proven. I see a couple of explanations. Time to exit this Matt Seven forum. Maybe linkup again somewhere other than the Trini’s vs the Uni’s. I wish you strength on your journey to 80 (Ps 90:10). And you and your dog are a pair. Peace.
Excellent work. Very informative and provided empirical evidence.
well done Sean. My focus has been that since the concept of Trinity is not a sacred topic but rather a secular one; any research like this is in pursuit of the "Development of the Trinity" rather than a didactic construct.
When the bible is used as the final source of authority, we clearly see that Jesus is God. Praise the triune God.
@@follow_the_way Amen.
Thank you for proclaiming that Jesus Christ Is God.
God in the old testament = I Am the First and the Last
Jesus in the new testament = I Am Alpha and Omega the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last.
God in Old Testament= there is no god beside me, i even i am God and there is none else.
ONE THING GOD DONT DO IS LIE.
JESUS IS GOD
The trinity originated in pagan Egypt and Catholicism followed suit along with the harlot daughters of Revelation.
Great stuff. I recall Vince Finnegan boldly heralding the trinity as idolatrous 40 years ago. A rare man by not going back to the polytheistic doctrine after all this time.
Is he related to Sean Finnegan?
@@stevenv6463 Yes. Vince is Sean's father. Has been throughout Sean's entire life. :P
@@jimwinchester339 Father and son therefore they must be the same ontological being along with a third person.
Bill,. please get in Touch if you Can!! I heard Vince Finnigan Talk - Upstairs in South Park Pavillion - Macclesfield, Cheshire around 1980. A Great Man - GOD!!
The statement, "God the Son" is not in the Christian scriptures. Since the statement is not in scripture, the statement is tradition. Tradition is not made by the One, but my people.
May be the statement is not in the Bible but the 'concept' is there throughout.
Exactly, it's an oral tradition with no documented source directly linking to Jesus and no proven preservation of the tradition. Trinity is nothing but blind faith.
Do we have "God was the Word" in John 1 in the Greek?
Denial of the Trinity is heretical. Hebrews 1 is clear that the Father calls Jesus God. Gen 1 "Let us make man in OUR image"
Excellent teaching Sean
Wrong !
It is totally untrue to claim that anytime before the Nicea 325AD and Constantinople 381AD the specific creed which states 'there are three persons in one God' or even 'God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit' was ever stated in writing or for that even mentioned. Oh yes there are many 'implications', pointers' inndirect references too' e.t.c Paul said "Do not go BEYOND the things that are written 1 Cor 4:6. Why is that the case? because the 'trinity creed' in not in the bible!
Well done, Sean. You're most definitely onto something good. Keep up the good work.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
@@theguyver4934
Fish: are we carrots to you? 😂
I'm thankful that I'm hearing the truth. This subject is so very important. The truth makes sense and it seems the teachings that dont are called "mysteries".
lol.... yes, l've noticed that too...😁
See my post with Polycarp as first word.
Why ask the church fathers on the deity of Jesus when the Scriptures should be consulted on matters pertaining to the sound doctrine?
John 1:1 , 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God... And the Word became made flesh and dwelt among us...
John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to hin, “Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed...
Romans 9:5 Of whom are fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over-all the eternal blessed God. Amen
Titus 2:13 Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and SaviourJesus Christ.
Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;...”
These are some of the texts whose meaning is plain and simply testifying to the deity of Jesus Christ.
Just because people believed something doesn’t make it true.
and in fact, we see the Bible speaks of repition. God creates a new people because the old people betrayed. Adam's world ends because he betrayed God -> Noah's world ends because his son sinned -> Moses' world ends (Solomon to pharisees) -> Jesus. And what did Jesus and prophet John say? That Christians would betray like the times of Noah and Lot, and new people would come from east and west to be created into God's new people who truly love HIM more than traditions and false doctrines of men.
That is a true statement. That statement does not give the trinitarian viewpoint any weight, however. On the contrary, that would also invalidate the council of Nicaea.
@@mrniusi11 - wait are you saying that the trinity was meant to happen or it did by accident
@@theguyver4934 there is no Trinity. Trinity isn't in the Bible. it's the teaching of men. Believing in is a leap of faith that the Bible doesn't support.
@@mrniusi11 - I pray that Yahweh helps get rid of the false pagan trinity from this world as fast as possible and Christendom will flourish
Excellent presentation! The false doctrine of the Trinity & those who teach salvation is dependent on accepting it, is the biggest stumbling block keeping many from being born again today. Most are saved in spite of it, not because of it. I asked a Rabbi why he didn't believe Jesus is the Messiah and he said because Jesus cannot be God, that'd be idolatry. Most telling was Tertullian, calling the majority of believers simple and unlearned, shows the arrogance of those who play around with the simplicity of God's Word and convince others they cannot receive it without their expertise. God desires all men to be saved, salvation is not obscure, complicated or hidden. Simply believe Rom 10:9-10 - so simple, even a child can understand.
Trinitarian belief is not the biggest stumbling block by a long shot. Mostly it’s just having another pre-existing religious belief, most of the world already believes in a different God or something.
Indians aren’t chomping at the bit to become Christian’s but the trinity is the one thing putting them off.
Majority of believers were Modalist/Monarchians.
See my post with Polycarp on first line
Amazing. Keep'em coming
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
10:39 how did you not see Trinity in this one? He said our God Jesus Christ? How is that not Trinity? I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just trying to understand.
It’s all too easy for the mind to skip over what it doesn’t want to see.
Amen. Jesus is God. And...there is no Trinity!
Did the biblical prophets that came before Jesus believe in the trinity? And if they didn't, or were deliberately not informed about it, how did they get their salvation? And if they did get their salvation, can we also be saved without believing Jesus is literally God?
No, you will not know the truth and you must worship God in Spirit and Truth.
They did not believe in any Trinity, no one in O.T. writings did ,nor did the N.T. Apostles, Disciples and Jesus did not state any teaching or support for such.
Of course OT would not know about the Trinity. It was irrelevant before the incarnation of God in Jesus. If you read the Early Church Fathers there is a clear understanding of The Trinity. And , the fact that the Church battled some early non-Trinitarian heresies supports the early Church belief in the Trinity.
They did not believe in a trinity. They believed in the One true God YHWH, who led their people out of the land of Egypt. They learned and were taught by Gods son, the lord Jesus.
Yes you can be saved and born again by believing this bc JESUS IS NOT GOD. HE IS THE SON OF GOD, mighty god and not almighty God
@@michaeljonathan543 there you go, 2 gods, just like Justin. Save Rev 4:8 compared with Rev.1:8,11 shows he is the Lord God Almighty and there is only One God how many times you got to be told?
Deut 6:4 ,you bring out Heresy. Zech 12:10 shows YHWH is speaking and he says they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, tell me when was YHWH pierced? Oh yeah...JESUS was LORD.
The Trinity is simply the pagan notion of how God, the One (monad) emanates or evolves (unfolds) into the duad, the triad, then the 7 planets or archangels. Its found in Hinduism, the Kabbalah, Neo-Platonism etc. Its also connected with the 3 aspects of man which Paul speaks of: body, soul, & spirit....a person is one but consists of 3 'persons' or aspects.
Perhaps in paganism but not in the Hebrew bible. The hebrews never believed the bible consisted of 3 in one. The body was the נפש or the soul itself. The רוח or ruach was the breath of God that animated the body. When a person died they ceased to exist and the breath returned to God whom gave it.
@@jeremybravo8486 Hello Jeremy Bravo, Eugene here. Thanks for your comment. When I was a child and believed that I was really an invisible Ghost like being who lived in my body, which was not me, but my "tent", I often wondered exactly "where" in my "tent" did I live. I decided I lived in my head, somewhere behind my eyes. This is the time/place to smile or laugh out loud.
@@jeremybravo8486 the Hebrews never believed Jesus either, so u don’t believe Jesus ?
The Pagan Trinity Deities originated from NIMROD the ancient ruler of ancient BABYLON , THE OPPOSER OF JEHOVAH . The bible identifies him ? ? The book THE TWO BABYLONS , by the author . HISLOP . Gives you the ancient origin of the PAGAN TRINITY AND DEITIES , and how they spread throughout the world ? ? ?
Very well done 😊
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
God is bigger than all our boxes, more complex than all our systems.
Was there a doctrine of the Trinity in the time of Jesus and His disciples?
Answer.
The simplest outline of the doctrine was formulated in the 4th century, largely in terms of rejection of what was considered not to be consonant with general Christian belief. Further elaboration continued in the succeeding centuries.[10]
Scripture contains neither the word Trinity,[11] nor an expressly formulated doctrine of the Trinity. Rather, according to the Christian theology, it "bears witness to" the activity of a God who can only be understood in Trinitarian terms.[12] The doctrine did not take its definitive shape until late in the fourth century.[13] During the intervening period, various tentative solutions, some more and some less satisfactory, were proposed.
10. "Trinity, doctrine of" in The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (Oxford University Press 2005 ISBN 978-0-19-280290-3)
11. Matt Slick, "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible"
12. McGrath Alister E. Christian Theology: An Introduction Blackwell, Oxford (2001) p.321
13. McGrath, Alister E. Christian Theology: An Introduction Blackwell, Oxford (2001) p.324
The above info answers saying there was NO OFFICIAL Trinity doctrine in the time of Jesus and His disciples, because as we have clearly read. The Trinity doctrine did not take its definitive shape until 300 years later in the 4th century.
Question for Trinitarians?
As there was NO TRINITY doctrine for over 300 years after Christ, and the Disciples and millions of Christians did not have the TRINITY doctrine as their MAIN faith, but instead believed GOD was ONE GOD AND ONE PERSON ALONE and that Jesus was the SON of GOD.
Would this mean the Disciples and millions of Christians, including Jesus who only ever taught His Father was ONE PERSON in Mark 12:29, and that He was GODS SON John 10:36, are they all going to HELL?
WHY DO MOST OF CHRISTIANITY BELIEVE IN WHAT WAS NEVER TAUGHT IN THE TIME OF JESUS AND HIS DISCIPLES?
No one needs to be a scientist to read the history of the TRINITY, and see how the TRINITY became a NEW RELIGION in the fourth century.
I'm SDA but I'm not more PCG I've listen to all kinds of debates like every Sabbath, I study early church history and you are teaching truth and I like how you do it
Thanks for posting this no nonsense lecture. I like your opinion.
Complete nonsense !
I very much appreciate Prof. Finnegan saying around the 49:00 mark that aside from the Scriptures, there is no book that was written that we should hold as "sacred" and binding. The Scriptures are that, but all other writings are the comments of those who, at least in theory, place themselves under the authority of the Scriptures.
This is not to say that we should discount the writings of men. I have gotten tremendous value from reading commentaries from Matthew Henry to Dennis Prager. But no matter what is written by us, we need to make sure they are consistent with the Bible. Not that they are consistent with each other. I hope I made myself clear and I apologize if I didn't.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we shouldn't "deify" the writings of the original church fathers just because they were written 1800 years ago. Just as in our society we tend to discount the traditions of our elders in favor of the opinions of the young, so many in the church will discount what is being said today in favor of what was written 1800 years ago (or even two generations ago). Age in of itself does not determine truth, nor does it determine how much a person loves the truth. A writer from 275 A.D. can be just as wrong about a spiritual issue as a health-and-wealth preacher today preaching the prosperity gospel.
Keep up the good work, sir! God bless you.
When the bible is used as the final source of authority, we clearly see that Jesus is God. Praise the triune God.
Awesome, thank you so much.
Noah: God is one
Abraham: God is one
Jacob: God is one
Moses: God is one
Jesus: God is one
People: TriNiTY
How many God's do you think Trinitarians believe in?.....
@Salomo are you a Unitarian or a Trinitarian?
@Salomo ah ok brother, just wanted to make sure. I didn't know to how to interpret your comment above but now I get it.
in Christ,
JG
@Salomo Thats just your assumption, there is nothing in the bible that says that.. If God said Im sending a basket of fish, if you accept this basket, Ill forgive your sin, that should be enough..
Mind blowing facts. Where have you been? I just found you through Blogging Theology. Will subscribe.
Blogging theology is a useless one sided dork
And I'm saying that as a Muslim
@@theguyver4934 ? You would do well to practice as well as claim, Islam. Then as a revert, you know he was chosen by Allah. Suban Allah. Muslims should know the Prophet (PBUH) said if you can't say something pleasant it's best to be silent.
@@sondrameyer2816 you know a lot of pagan "cross"tians and Hindus calling themselves as muslims in comment sections to deceive layman muslims I have seen lot of them
@@theguyver4934when someone said "I said that as a Muslim" and say rude stuff like that, then he is definitely not a Muslim 😂. What a clown
The problem is that Emporer Constantine ordered all writings of the “heretics” pre Nicea burned. Infant baptism and church membership were required by law, whether you wanted to or not.
An excellent presentation! Thank you!!
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
What I’ve learned through studying scripture is that everything is addressed is scripture. It speaks to everything we see today including all of the major heresies. Paul warned us of “different Jesus “as well as the Antichrist but never not to worship Jesus. Scripture is a living word therefore we see it’s application in our life today. We are warned against false gods, idols etc yet it never mentions anything wrong with worshipping Jesus. In fact Philippians 2:9-11 we are to bow to Jesus. Idk guys, I used to be a Jehovah’s Witness and someone couldn’t get me to understand the Trinity for nothing in the world then, now that I’ve woken up from that false religion I’m able to clearly see the amazing mystery of God’s nature. ❤️
@Jackilegs112 alker After having been raised as a 3rd generation JW I believed things that were not scriptural. It took me having to humble myself to acknowledge this.
Jesus said we must change and become like children Matthew 18:2-5. This is referring to our conversion in Christ. We must be humble like children to enter the Kingdom of heaven. He does not mean that a child can read the Bible and understand.
We cannot understand God’s word using our own interpretation but allowing scripture to interpret itself and allowing ourselves to be led by the Holy Spirit not men, we will have a greater understanding of His word. 1john 2:27 ; 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Jesus was not created. The Bible does not teach this. It is an interpretation from men not understanding scripture.
So using the discernment we receive from the Holy Spirit and not literal interpretation that we receive from men, we understand that the author wrote in Greek which in the Greek the word “begotten” is “monogenes “ means “one of a kind” or “unique one”. Not created. We see similar language used regarding Abraham’s son Isaac, being his only “begotten “ son. Hebrews 11:17. Yet we know Ishmael was the oldest son so Isaac was not the only son brought into existence. So contextually, we see that the word “begotten” referring to Jesus means “one of a kind” “unique “. Hope this helps.
@Jackilegs112 alker 🙂 funny it’s ironic, I came to truth when I no longer wanted to believe the lie. Jesus said He is the truth and the life no one gets to the Father accept through Him John 14:6.
He didn’t say follow men or an organization, which would most certainly cause one to follow a lie.
I follow Jesus, therefore I am following truth. See how simple that was?
We shouldn’t speak on our own opinion as facts but allow scripture to speak facts and we just listen. There are things that I could say , in my own interpretation, as not making sense but once understood in Spirit , I clearly understand.
Two things for sure:
The Bible is Gods inspired word and the Bible doesn’t contradict. Keeping that in mind, it lays a foundation and keeps you on the path to truth.
@Jackilegs112 alker yeah I wasn’t a Bible study student. Don’t think I would have ever given them any attention if that’s how I was introduced to it.
I was born into this belief system, 3 generations, it’s all I knew. I had to go against all I knew to seek out truth which yeah, took some time, but praise God, I did.
The true God is One God. I believe if we know and hold true to the below scriptures we have the correct understanding of God’s nature.
Deuteronomy 6:4; John 5:18; Matthew 28:19-20; Luke 3:21-22; Luke 1:35; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 14:26; Genesis 1:26; John 14;16-17; John 1:1-51; Colossians 2:9; 1 John 5:7-8; John 15:26; Ephesians 4:4-6; Isaiah 9:6; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; John 10:30-36; Acts 5:3-4; Genesis 3:22; 1john 5:7; John 8:58; Matthew 3:13-17; Isaiah 46:9; Hebrews 1:3, 8; Luke 22:42 ; Micah 5:2; revelation 1:8; John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 12:11; Job 33:4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Philippians 1:2; Titus 14; Titus 3:6; James 2:19; romans 10:9; psalms 110:1;
Thanks for the discussion.
@Jackilegs112 alker Everyone is a Jehovah’s Witness in my family on both sides. I was in field service at 5 years old and baptized at 14. No regrets, it’s God’s purpose as I am now equipped to respond to scripture quotes as John 14:28 since I had to seek it out myself.
The scripture John 14:28 was one I used to quote as well amongst so many others, that I thought meant Jesus was not divine. However comparing John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”, it would seem that we’d have a contradiction. However you and I both know that the Bible doesn’t contradict, people do.
So to be sure I understood in context I went deeper into the text. While reading about the humility we should have I came across Philippians 2:5-7 “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who as He, already existed in the form of God did not consider equality with God something to be grasped but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bondservant and being born in the likeness is men.”
Also Hebrews 1:9 “but we see Him who for a little while, was made lower than the angels ...”
Then Colossians 2:9 we learn that Jesus nature is full deity. Which is a divine Being. Also we know that Jesus came to do the will of His Father. John 6:38.
So contextually we see that yes , the Father is greater than Jesus in role not nature. They are both divine. Same way as a human father is greater than his son in role but both are human. Jesus shares the same nature as the Father, not the role.
@Jackilegs112 alker I love how you said “Jesus is a derivation of the Father”. That is so true. I completely agree. We see that in John 1:1 “ in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and God was the Word.” John 1:14 we see that the Word became flesh.
The Word derived from God so the Word is God. It is the same Being.
I’ve read Proverbs 8 in it’s entirety. The very first verse reveals that “wisdom” with a female persona is what the text is speaking of. Yes wisdom is from God. Should we not think that wisdom has always existed in God?
One thing I truly see now after I woke up and had to research everything I was taught , is this...what the Trinity truly is. I had such a different picture in my mind of the Trinity than I have now that I’m reborn. I think since we cannot understand the entire Majestic nature of our Holy God Almighty we cannot interpret His Being. This was where I started in my realization of who God truly is.
So connecting the dots I said to myself, what does scripture say about who God is? His character, His Divinity, His Eternal existence, His Glory,
His Goodness,...?
Then I researched to see who else shares these things and could not find anyone else but the One True God. He is the one who is all these things and all these things are in Him.
Who has these attributes?
The Father - psalm 93:2
The Son - revelation 1:8
The Holy Spirit - psalms 139:7-8
Now I understand why we are to be baptized in the name of the Father , the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Agape love ❤️
To sum up the video or at least the first part:
1. Let's define Trinity so narrowly that nobody before the Council of Chalcedon could possibly be a Trinitarian.
2. If a church father fails to express Trinitarian beliefs (as per #1), let's declare him "not a Trinitarian".
3. If we cannot help acknowledge a Trinitarian statement, either
a. declare it a forgery, or
b. say that it doesn't count because the same father also made several not so clear statements (per #2).
Difficult to be a Trinitarian with the trinity of councils
@@trevorsimpson8788 There is no trinity of councils.
@@str.77 325AD Nicea (God from very God), 381AD Constantinople (the Holy Spirit becomes God) and 451AD Chalcedon ( Jesus now has two natures)
@@trevorsimpson8788 That's not even the first three Ecumenicals Councils.
And Trinity doesn't mean "a set of three".
My dear sir, these are the first three that set up the doctrine of the Trinity....thanks.@@str.77
Everyone should read"the GOD of Jesus" by keegan Chandler.
Awesome presentation! "...contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" Jude 3
When the bible is used as the final source of authority, we clearly see that Jesus is God. Praise the triune God.
no@@follow_the_way
@@ManlyServant Yes
The trinity is idolatry. How to get born again/saved: Romans 10:9-10
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
All finding any pre-Nicaean writers who were trinitarian would prove is that the catholics has some data to go on.
I AM A CHRISTADELPHIAN FROM NOTTINGHAM FOREST ROAD, HERE IN NOTTINGHAM WE AS A CHURCH DO NOT HAVE BELIEF IN THE TRINTY, SO THANK YOU SPEAKER THAT WE ARE NOT ALONE ON THIS SUBJECT.
do you believe Jesus was talking to the devil in the wilderness
The Trinity prior to the 4th century is clearly an anachronism. The debate was over just how divine Jesus was/is and the manner of God's presence with/in him. I tend to think the majority saw Jesus as a human with a unique relationship to God but some (including Paul) saw him as some form of heavenly being who took on human nature. Either way, Jesus is not God in the full sense of the word. Also I think Origen believed everyone was preexistent
Funny that Paul never met Jesus during Jesus’ time on earth. He CLAIMED to saw Jesus on the road, after the ascension. And Jewish rabbis wonder if Paul was really a Pharisee, why is he persecuting Jesus’ followers..Jews at the time have a bigger problem: Roman Emperor. Christians were minority back then.
And Jewish Rabbis doubt that Saul was really a student of Gamaliel.
If any man add or take away from the book of this prophesy his name will be removed from the book of life.thats God's word people
"For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship--and this is what I am going to proclaim to you." (ACTS 17:23)
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deut. 6:4).
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3)
"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me" (Isaiah 45:5).
"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?" (Mat. 22:44).
"But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand." (Heb. 10:12)
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman the man; and the head of Christ God." (1Cor. 11:3)
"I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30)
"the Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38)
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 2:8&9)
"there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1Tim. 2:5).
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Mat. 16:13-18).
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Mat. 28:19)
"So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs." (Heb. 1:4)
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (ACTS 4:10-12)
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:22)
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev 2:29)
All answers is in Scripture. The initial problem was the church adhering to doctrines of men to define its belief system. Study, to show yourselves approved... Study what exactly: The Scriptures! All praise to the Most High Yahuah, the Set-Apart One of Yahsharel.
As a Muslim I find this fascinating to watch. And I do wonder... To the orthodox Unitarians how do you guys view Paul's contribution to Christianity?
And how do you guys view upholding of the Jewish law?
I prey that Allah swt helps our christian brothers get rid of the false pagan trinity from this world as fast as possible that way both parties will be satisfied
@@theguyver4934 alhamdulillah these guys have. Our du'as need to be for them to accept the FULL message of Jesus peace be upon him and accept Islam 🤲.
@@anneeq008 - Why not just prey that Allah swt helps biblical unitarians get rid of the false pagan trinity that way both parties will be satisfied
@@theguyver4934
Did you understand what my initial comment said?
Unitarian by definition means that they don't believe in the trinity. So alhamdulillah Allah has already given them this benefit. They're halfway to tawheed. They just need to accept RasoolAllah peace be upon him as their final Prophet
@@anneeq008 - That is a matter of faith why not just prey that christian faith becomes strong and flourish (Biblical unitarianism) that way both parties will be satisfied
That is what Google say . What did your Bible say ? When someone called him " Good Teacher " , jesus replied , " Why do you call me good ?No one is good but one , that is God ". The word " Trinity " can be found nowhere in the Bible The Trinity is an unscriptural context , smuggled into Christendom under unbaptized Roman Constantine by cloak & dagger means . Jesus says to God , " Your word is the truth ". John. 17 :17. But the doctrine of the Trinity is a lie . Here is the lie . " There are three that bear witness in heaven , the Father , the word , & the Holy Spirit & these three are one ". John. 5 :7 . This verse was discovered to be an interpolation , a fabrication . As no such verse were found in the earlier Greek manuscripts by Erasmus . This verse was thrown out of the Bible was retained in the KJV ( Catholic Bible ) & is even found in their Bibles today . Thrown out by 32 Scholars of the highest eminence , backed by 50 leading co operating Christian Denominations . The very fact that Trinitarians found it necessary to smuggle John. 5 :7 into the Bible in order to validate the doctrine of the Trinity shows conclusively that the doctrine is fake .
If the prophets & apostles never taught it, and you are asking me to believe a combination of Greek & Pagan theologians & the Catholic Church which is by far the greatest money laundering scheme of all time 😂 I will just stick to the Bible
biblical unitarian
@@HotNoob I believe God & Jesus are both "Gods", but that there is a clear hierarchy and that Jesus is subservient to God (YHWH), and not like Trinitarians try to smear & paint those of us who are non-Trinitarians as believing that Jesus was just some guy, and not a immortal being. The Trinitarians have dug their heels in this matter, and think everyone else is going to hell. It is just as difficult to convert a Trinitarian to a Unitarian as it is trying to get a meth or heroin addict to become sober. The fact that 72% of Christians actually believe in the Trinity, tells me that Satan has been exceedingly successful in tricking many well intentioned Christians down a path that won't lead to Heaven. Looking at the world today, and how society is indulging & bathing in sin, as a hog trough full of slop, tells me the 28% is the correct path, because the path towards righteousness & eternal life is a difficult & perilous one. I fully expect that 72% number to grow, and the 28% number to shrink, as our society continues to fall apart, and sin continues to spead & become more prevalent.
@@NeverUkraine i think BU can be compatible with a subservant God, in the right context.
Psalms 82:6
Psalm 82 - NIV
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?[b]
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
Philippians 2:9-11
New International Version
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
it's not entirely incompatible, just listen to christ and pray to the father as christ himself instructed.
i think the trinity is a much bigger problem.
@@HotNoob 👍
Isaiah 40:1-3 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD (Jehovah's) hand double for all her sins.
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
"Prepare ye the way of the LORD Jehovah, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."
And who did John in the spirit of Elijah prepare the way for? As it says, "Make straight in the desert a highway for our God" ~Jesus
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6 (NKJV)
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 20-21 (NKJV)
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. 2 Corinthians 13:14 (NKJV)
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Acts 5:3-4 (NKJV)
The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool. Psalm 110:1 (NKJV)
24 Then the Lord (Son) rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord (Father) out of the heavens. Genesis 19:24 (NKJV)
11 “I (Son) overthrew some of you, As God (Father) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand plucked from the burning; Yet you have not returned to Me,” Says the Lord (Son). Amos 4:11 (NKJV)
8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” Hebrews 1:8-12 (NKJV)
Thank you for this video. I have been praying and meditating on whether God is Trinity or not. I am leaning against it. I think you sealed it for me in your quote from Tertullian Against Praxias 3 "the MAJORITY of believers' rule of faith withdraws them from the world's plurality of gods to the one only true god" "take themselves pre-eminently the credit of being worshippers of the One God". Tertullian himself is telling us in his own words what the majority of believers of his time believed. People back them believed in many gods existing at the same time. So to believe in One True God was very unique and distinctive. This is what set them apart from everybody else. Therefore, it could only mean exactly what it says....one means one.
The early christrians never knew about Trinity before Nicea.That Doctrine was ivented to appropriate the beliefs of pagan people in Europe.
I agree with you.
God almighty was and always be one. And never share His attributes .
@@ronelpalma522 , they knew Jesus was God, something the ignorant Unitarians don't, because they are blinded to the scriptures to see it.
Jesus was not just the Son, the man Christ, but was the Father and the comforter, the Holy Spirit.
@@ronelpalma522 , that isn't true. I as a Monarchian also stated as a Modalist see a development of the tritheist idea of Trinitarians in the 2nd century,we see Justin and Athenagoras have a three view, without the wording, Theophilus a philosopher held the trias Greek word (triad in English) but this was a older pagan term and was about 180 a.d.
Tertullian coined the word Trinitas ( Trinity in our English) ca 210a.d., so it was 100 yrs before Nicea and though almost 200 years after Christ.
But the 1st century and 2nd they didn't have the word or a fully developed doctrine of such.
I feel pity for the Unitarians denying and raping from Jesus his complete Deity, they sadly will burn in hell and for all eternity because they were dumb as a rock blinded from the truth and seeing because they had not the spirit of discernment to see him as the
LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.
The truth is coming to light. In the end, all will know who the One God is and the Man, Jesus. No matter how much you in believe in something else, the truth will always be truth.
Bad tie, you might want to avoid wearing it in future. The talk...wow...really exceptional delivery and content. For my own personal investigation regarding the doctrine of the trinity you answered many questions. I tried reading Polycarp and Irenaeus et al searching for evidence of the trinity and just got bogged down - but this lesson was very validating for me, as well establishing historical context - especially regarding the translations of Origen by Rufinus, thank you.
Are you a christian, taking out time to talk about some ones tie. Very sad.
Commenting for the algorithm to help this video to be spread to a wider audience.
Me too, so are you Arian/Unitarian non Jesus is God?, Trinitarian?
Modalist Monarchians or something else?
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV
Probably safe to say that the vast majority of USA Christianity reads and preaches from error-filled modern bible versions and is unaware or fails to believe the inerrant word of God actually exists. Maybe it's the King's english that would be bad for business. Apostate churches are alive and well.
1 John: 5:7 is a forgery! Please stop lying!
@@deistormmods
It has been in the original Greek bible for the past 1600 years.
@@breambo3835 Noooo. Where are you getting this information?
@@deistormmods
A Trail of
1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse:
200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.
Trinity was introduced in 284 AD by a Byzantine monk, in order to join Rome with Constantinople for purposes of commerce and political power in the Mediterranean. The monk sourced the idea from pagan origins in Egypt. This is recorded history that allays endless theories and typically empty opinions. Opinions = cranial flatulence.
Trinittyyyy debunked
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Goobers. There obviously was a divide about who Christ was, many saw Him as divine and many saw Him as created. Once Christians could all come together and hash out what the Church would teach, guided by the Holy Spirit, obviously there was more evidence for His claim to be divine.
The problem with most on here is you are your highest authority. You personally look at scripture and see the verses that look like Jesus was created and you look at the verses that look like He was Divine / eternal and you make your decision.
If you personally think you’re right then u fight and fight your neighbor both claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit.
The Church /Orthodoxy not only spoke on that but the canonicity of the Bible as well.
Watching all of y’all flop around in what you think scripture means is entertaining. All led by the Holy Spirit right???
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O Israel, YHVH our God is ONE (Echad)
The relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit has been a point of discussion for almost 2000 years.
In Malachi 3:6 we read that YHVH does not change. Therefore the key to understanding the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be found in the above verse Deuteronomy 6:4.
To employ that key we must look at the original language of the text where YHVH is describes as One. The verse is the basis of the Shema which is the fundamental statement of faith for the Jewish people. Most non Messianic Jews have a big problem with the Christian concept of a triune God.
The key for both Jews and Christians to learn the correct concept of our God is the word echad. Echad is the Hebrew word for one, but more precisely it means a single entity but made up of more than one part.
There is another Hebrew word from the same root - Yachid which means single. The meaning of Echad (more than one part) is a confirmation of the Hebrew word Elohim which is translated as God. Elohim is a plural word - more than one being called God
There is one more clear proof of the truine nature of the God of Israel.
Isaiah 48:16 And now YHVH and His Ruach (Spirit) have sent Me (an eternal person speaking in verse 12 and 16 - Yeshua)
Three entities can be clearly seen in that verse. The nature of God is a mystery, but we can clearly see that although God is Echad, He is much more than that - He is Echad and He is Elohim - Hallelu YAH
I watched Finnegan's video, and I read your claim. Just my opinion, but what you claim is "clear" is not clear. Maybe it's "clear" to you, but it's not "clear" to me. On a technical scholarly note, may I respectfully suggest that you put your bible quotes in "quotation marks" so that people can determine whether your claims are actually scriptural - or just your own. And it might also be best if you identify the translation version of whatever bible you use. (Like KJV or NEB, or NET). I suppose it might be best to that you identify the publication date of whatever bible source you use as well, because apparently there's significant differences. Oh uh, BTW, you know Newton? He did an interesting test on what was "clear". Newton passed "clear" light through a prism, and discovered it was not really "clear", it was actually an assembly of many different light wave lengths. Point is, what you think in your brain is "clear" may actually be something else, especially to people who see things differently.
I’m not against trinity, but Yachid does not mean single one, as you say. The Hebrew Echad is like English in that is can mean one in number or in unity. It is just as ambiguos as English, and does not clear this up.
tHANK YOU HARD WORK BRING OUT GOOD SECTION OF HISTORY
I absolutely believe that God is a God so awesome in power and glory that He has within Himself three avenues through which He moves. These avenues of God are: the will of God (the Father), the part which fulfills His will (the Word, or the Son), and the part which establishes His will (Holy Ghost) Each avenue has a specific purpose which only It can accomplish. And, because God's glory is so powerfully thick, these avenues have power potent enough to move on their own so that they can accomplish their purposes. Because of that, it seems the avenues are separate; but since they are extensions of God, they are in no way separate from Him. Even in the case of God extending the avenue of His Word into becoming flesh, the Messiah, even that extension is still God. And God is still a spirit even though a part of Him has become flesh- Jesus.
Someone needs to put timestamps of the different early church fsthers he speaks of in the comments 👍
Matthew 28:19 is a lie because in Acts and Pauls letters they all baptized IN JESUS HEBREW NAME ONLY
But......the 12 apostles and Paul did not believe in the trinity.
This is a great talk, well researched and full of good reasoning. It's amazing how trinitarians twist the facts
When the bible is used as the final source of authority, we clearly see that Jesus is God. Praise the triune God.
@@follow_the_way you keep praising your false triune God, that won't end well
Wrong !!
@@follow_the_way Amen.
@@follow_the_wayAmen 🙏🏽
What about Philipians 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God
The bible clearly states that Jesus eternally existed with the Father. If you read the early church father quotes on pause before Sean slaughters them with his own point of view it becomes clear that these early Christians held Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the same regard as the Father. I comment directly to you in order to encourage you do not be missled by these teachings.
@@homegrownfitnessequipment4602There are no church fathers. The Word of God says, Call no man Father, you have one Father which is in heaven.
Moreover, they were not Apostles, some became heretics (see Tertullian and Montanist heresy).
We have the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, and no teaching of a trinity.
It is difficult to be objective concerning the trinitarian doctrine, having been indoctrinated by it.
God is a spirit, not a man, nor a person as defined by our dictionaries as a human individual.
Moreover, Jesus is the Son that was to be given according to the revelation of the prophecy in Isaiah 9 :6.
The point is that the Son is the Everlasting Father, Mighty God.
Wherefore, the Son is the Father, the Son and the Father are one, they are the same according to this scripture. We don't want to say it because of the trinitarian indoctrination. But it is true that the Son is the Everlasting Father, and they are the same, because they are one.
Jesus said it, I and my Father are one, and if you have seen, you have seen the Father.
We should rather teach that there is one God, than harp on this false doctrine that God is three persons.
Know this, we know in part 1Cor13, and now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face, and we shall know even as we are known 1Cor13 :12.
And also, When God shall appear, we shall be like him, and we shall see him as he is 1Jn 3 :2.
The trinitarian doctrine was born out of the pride of men.
Because the revelation of the mystery of God as he is has not yet been given. And they have taken this sacred mystery and created their own revelation by reason of their pride and lack of humility.
Words cannot reveal this mystery, but Jesus will us the only Potentate, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lord's, who dwells in the light that no man can approach unto, whom no man has seen, neither can see 1Tim6:14-16.
Grace and peace be multiplied through the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus.
Jesus is NOT eternal. Proverbs 8 Vs 22- 31. He is described as God's first born of all creatures/ creation. Jesus had a beginning. His Father did not.
@@allanfada9830 Jesus is the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, meaning theirs nothing before him, or after him.
Revelation 22:12-13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. ~Jesus
Absolutely a great lesson
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
It would be interesting to see a debate between Sean and James White
Between Sean and anyone really
White would get smoked
John 1:10 how do you explain that verse? He was in the world and he create the world and the world new him not. Jesus is the eternal father and son at the same time. I am oneness apostolic
Because Christ isn't the word, it is in him. He didn't create the world, his Father did alone in accordance to his word. The world was made by or in accordance to the word which provided for a Christ messiah to come. Everything was ordered around that from the beginning.
Here's the problems with the phrase "Jesus is God".1. Paul said God is the head (in authority) of Jesus Christ.2. God created Jesus Christ.3.Jesus said God sent him.4 Jesus said God gave him the power to raise himself from the grave. 5. Paul said God was the God of Jesus Christ.
Jesus believed in one god not trinity.
Trinity is one God
God doesnt need to believe in anything, it's everything which need to believe in God, making it crystal clear that Yesus never was, never is and never will be God. As he always claimed himself, just like Muhammad after him, and like many other prophets before him, he was merely a prophet of God. And he submitted himself to the one and only God, the Almighty, which means he was a muslim, just like all other prophets of God.
@@iansaeed8210
Did Mohammad raise himself from the dead ?
Did Mohammad abstain from sex ?
Did Mohammad pick 12 apostles ?
Did Mohammad get put on trial and
Asked “are You the Son of God ?”
Did Mohammad answer, “I am”
@@PInk77W1 hmm Muslims don't believe Mohammed was God. He was just a human with a message like other prophets. Muslims believe in Jesus miracles but with permission from God. So Jesus is not different from other prophets. From Muslim point of view.
Christians like to compare Jesus with Mohammed, we Muslims are not allowed to do that.
Quran 002:136
Say: We believe in God and that which had been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
@@hassendelft3907 Muslims and Quran skipped Jesus by 600yrs. Then they tell us about Jesus ?
So stupid.
What about Pope St. Dionysius' Epistle against the tritheists and Sabellians written in AD 260? The doctrine of the Trinity is already highly developed here.
Trinity: Not Biblical.
See my post with Polycarp as lead line
what about ignatius says Jesus is "our god"??
Didache7.1 of 50's AD ...baptize in the name of Father,Son,Holy spirit...the entities of trinity was there ,long time before the nicea concily...
All Christians believe in the 3 entities, including unitarians and Jehovah’s Witnesses… the issue is whether they are all persons, and whether they are all equal. In a sense, they are all ‘god’ or ‘divine’… if using the meanings of those expressions in the original languages. The spirit is Gods active force, so it’s obviously holy and ‘part’ of God. See Psalm 33;6 about Gods Spirit used in Creation. 1 Sam 16; 13-23 showing God has a bad spirit too. Also Isaiah 40 onwards says a lot about Gods Spirit, the way the Jews have always believed… not a Person.
The clarified definition of trinitarian theology did indeed evolve in terms of language, but not on the premise of who Jesus' followers believed Him to be. The language and further clarity on the doctrine was developed as a response to heresies that were popping up, like gnosticism.
If Jesus isn't the mighty God, Christianity is blasphemy.
If Jesus is the same as the Father, Christianity is insane.
But if you fully understand the trinitarian doctrine, it solves theological gaps that might lead to blasphemous or nonsensical conclusions.
Nobody has seen God, yet the Angel of the Lord(Yahweh) would appear to people and they would survive, though terrified they would die because they had "seen God".
What this demonstrates is that nobody can see the Father, which is the raw source of God's being, but when the Word of God, His angel, is sent to represent Him as His expressed image, then people can apparently "see God" and live 🤔
This is why Jesus said nobody has seen the Father except him. That nobody knows the father except the Son and nobody knows the Son except the Father.
This is why also when Phillip asks Jesus to show them the Father, he said "have "I" not been with you so long snd you still don't recognize ME? If you've seen me, you've seen the Father."
He also claims to have seem Abraham and then claims Eternal existence by saying before Abraham was "I AM".
The one who visited Abraham was Jehovah. In Genesis it says Jehovah on Earth rained down fire and brimstone from the Jehovah in heaven.
If the Trinity isn't true, then I can't in good conscience remain a Christian and the entirety of my religion would no longer make sense.
This video avoids a lot of the evidence you would find in the Bible and the early Church Fathers that would demonstrate the trinitarian paradigm..
What evidence is it avoiding?
Trinitarian heads are spinning
I prey that Yahweh helps get rid of the false pagan trinity from this world as fast as possible and Christendom will flourish
@@theguyver4934 He already did. 1400 years ago.
@@deistormmods - I didn't understand what you were saying
@@theguyver4934 Islam.
@@deistormmods - That's not what I meant
The conversation should be about, one thing, is the son the same individual INDIVIDUAL! AS THE FATHER? They set a trap of multiple words that have multiple definitions like substance, nature, essence, these words are not in the Bible and have no specific meaning, that is how the Trinity is a mystery, because it is a mystery to what those words mean, I studied for 2 solid years to see if the Trinity lines up with the bible, I watched hundreds of of videos read all the creeds, my conclusion is don't believe anything that is not in the Bible. The bible is written for the common uneducated person or child and when they read the bible without mans influence they walk away believing Mary gave birth to the son of God and his name is Jesus, Jesus prayed to the Father, the Father gave power to his son, if the Father and Son are one individual, there is no Son of God, so ask your trinitarians if the father and son are the same individual? Hold them to a yes or no answer, otherwise they will start saying he is the substance, nature, essence . They need to know who Jesus is because eternal life is only received by believing on the son. All judgement was put in the hands of the son, Jesus.
The Trinity is demonic
I prey that Yahweh helps get rid of the false pagan trinity from this world as fast as possible and Christendom will flourish
@@theguyver4934 Everything is in God's good time and I suggest He gives more than enough time for "Christians" to realize their gross error perpetrated on behalf of satan to explain to himself that Jesus has to be God to be able to dismiss his demons from every human that hears evangelism from Jesus through his worthy representative.
@@denissutherland3653 - I didn't understand what you were trying to say
@@theguyver4934 When Jesus was hideously crucified, murdered like all the previous prophets the moment he died God empowered him to be able to dismiss the demon from everyone's lower human nature inserted into Adam and Eve when Jesus and his committee of angels including satan and his scum made man supposedly to God's plan which was for man to be an angel thinking like Jesus ie Melchizedek in the time of Abram. satan and his awful crew surreptiously they thought inserted the lower human nature that was further infected by a demon after Eve succumbed to satan and then Adam succumbed to Eve. From then on all humans are born fallen angels materialized subject to satan through his demon. God allows satan to corrupt His "work" and why He allows that is God's business. However this destruction and wretchedness spiritually and physically will end in God's good time at the second resurrection when satan and his own will be forced to exist eternally in their own allocated space torturing one another and those they instinctively hated will live eternally in the paradise that will be the New Jerusalem.
@@denissutherland3653 - Wait are you saying that God wanted the trinity to be formed please say that's not true
I repeat my question "what is Sean Finnegan?" Let each one put their name instead of Sean Finnegan and answer.
Although I agree with his position, and I can't deny what the early church fathers said before nicea, even though I wanted the clear statement that proves the trinity I have a contention... how is it possible that for over 300 years, the trinity as we understand it was not on the radar of any believer, and all the sources he pointed out goes towards other understanding, that suddenly, in one single council, now it gets define as the understanding we have today if there was not any supposition to be like that to begin with?
Excellent Sean 👍👍😊💗 Thank You
I'm a new Christian, I grew up a JW with the belief that God is one. Now that I've left them and truly turned my life over to Christ, I wrestle with the notion of the trinity. I have a few scriptures that seem to support it. I'm not trying to be argumentative in the slightest; I am honestly curious and could use some help. John 10:29,30 Jesus says my father is greater than all,,I and the father are one.
John 2:19. Jesus says that he will raise himself up, not God..he says I will
John 8:19 they ask where his father is..where? He replys if you knew me, you would also know my father. They ask where his father is, he says right in front of you
Revelation 1:8 God is Alpha and Omega
Revelation 1:17,18 Jesus says I am the first and the last. I would really like clarification on these scriptures. God bless and thank you for helping out a new student of Christ.
Also, are all Unitarians ok with same sex marriage, or is that a church by church thing. Thanks again
Since you are new to Christianity, you should understand that the New Testament was NOT written by Jesus. When Jesus was preaching, nobody was writing down what he said. So just imagine how anyone can remember his exact words 40 to 70 years later by the time somebody decided to write down stuffs about Jesus.
The New Testament is a collection of writings about the THEOLOGY of the various authors regarding Jesus and his ministry. They are quoting words allegedly spoken by Jesus, to make their Theology authoritative so nobody would question them. But as you can see, we have no indisputable record of any eyewitness who wrote down Jesus' words as he spoke.
@@TheEchoeman
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and *will remind you of everything I have said to you* .
@@user-xb5oo5dd4f
Where did you get this information?
@@user-xb5oo5dd4f The Holy Spirit is not who you think he is. He did remind us of all that was taught by Jesus and all the prophets before him. You just did not accept when he did.
@@TheEchoeman 2Tim 3:16 (KJV)
Loved this
You love heresy?
@@endtimesareuponus8930 yes