Does your stereo need a subwoofer?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2024
- Subwoofers are often associated with booming home theater setups but when you make the right choices, your stereo can improve drastically from adding a subwoofer. So how do you do that?
Relevant videos:
About my reference setups: • About my reference set...
Subwoofer placement: • Subwoofer placement an...
What about loudspeaker impedance?: • What about loudspeaker...
If you like my work, support it through:
My Patreon page: / thehbchannel
Paypal: www.paypal.me/theHBchannel
My book: • File Based Audio aka S...
My links:
My site: www.theHBproject.com/en
My channel: / thehansbeekhuyzen
My Facebook page: / hansbeekhuyzen
My Google+ page: www.google.com/+TheHansBeekhuyzen
My Twitter: / hansbeekhuyzen
My reference sets:
About Questions: • About questions
What DAC is the best: • What DAC is the best? - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
One video from this guy and I subscribed immediately! Every sentence is wisdom
Thanks!
Thank you. I never heard anyone explain the proper use and setup of a subwoofer in this way. Excellent.
Glad you liked it!
Some of the best subwoofer info out there. Thanks Hans!
You're welcome!
Thanks, Hans. I've been struggling to understand this a bit. This was very helpful.
Great to hear!
"unbearably poor"! I really appreciate your honest approach with a touch of humor. Both if these qualities are seldomly heard in his hobby. And above all, real valuable information! Thank you!
🙏🏽
Amazing review, Hans. Thanks a lot!
Hans! You genius ⭐️ I lowered the high cut of my sub to 50Hz to match the 50Hz of my standmount speakers as you suggested and yes I got that openness of sound you mentioned. I also increased the volume a little. The best tweak and the cheapest 👏
👍🏻
Added a Rel ti 9 yesterday and my system sounds so much better. Can't believe the difference it makes to the soun resolution and soundstage. I am hearing new things in music I have been listening to for 40 years.
I know😃
Hi Hans,
Thanks for this great video.
🙏🏽
Your subwoofer video covered quite alot, all of which was very useful.
Prior to receiving my True Blue Box Cobalt DA, I made a resistor attenuated transformer pair (Triad TY-250P) to feed a monaural LPF to interface with an NHT powered sub.
The True Cobalt DA's PWM bridge tied load warranted tying the transformer primaries floated. The secondaries and LPF on the other hand are ground referenced.
Per your advice, I adjusting the sub's crossover from 80Hz down to 70Hz, which made things more cohesive and much less directional.
Again, many thanks.
great! Thanks
ever since i had an active subwoofer, i never wanted to go without, it's nice great for having nice pressure on low volumes too
still using a regular old stereo amplifier from the late 90s and an active subwoofer now, in fact, i have a second one
I agree completely
Thank you Hans. A sub-woofer is going on my wish list now.
Enjoy!
I agree with you Hans, I bought a 15 inch klipsch subwoofer, I didný bought it to use it to fill out the gap my speakers where missing because my speakers(Heco the statement) reach on paper 18Hz. I bought the subwoofer only to be part of my own designed audio table. . I am very happy with that audio table but when I, after a year, connected the subwoofer a whole new world opened for me. This was not my first subwoofer, but the first what reach 18Hz. My sound so much improved because what I later discovered that my Heco's on paper reach 18Hz but in reality it's above 25Hz. Another reason is that the amplifier what handle my speakers simply can't drive my speakers go to 18Hz. Te sub have it's own amplifier, made for only drive that subwoofer as deep as 18Hz. I am double happy now with the most beautiful audio table and my now perfect sound without gaps. My advice: if you buy a sub, only buy one that can reach the 20Hz.
Whether a sub should go that deep depends not only on the loudspeakers used but also on the dimensions of the listening room. The smaller REL T5 sub I use in my setup 2 only works down to 32 Hz and yes contributes clearly to the sound quality.
Nice to see you again, regards from Chile.
Hey, thanks!
Thanks, Hans. This was useful.
Glad to hear it!
Another good vid Hans. I just purchased the REL S510 to pair with my BW 702 S2, that are overly bright, in my opinion. I also recently added a Hegel H390. That amp has made a big difference from my Yamaha AVS A880. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
Very nice!
Very helpful. Thank you!
You're welcome!
To add to the chorus, go two subs. 2.2 is an amazing way to listen to music.
👍🏼
I bought a REL subwoofer for my Paradigm book shelf speakers. A real game changer.
I know😊
Thank You Sir... have learned a lot...
You are welcome
thanks for sharing.
My pleasure
Thanks Hans, I have build and own any kind and size of subwoofers that you can imagine, after 35 years of experience with subwoofers from all over the world, I can tell you my preferences, I actually run 2 Revel B12 10" and a Kerf 10" Subwoofer in my 5.3 configuration. I do prefer sealed subwoofers at the front and a ported subwoofer at the back. Sealed subwoofers at the front as they are more musical and deliver much better sound quality and are lot easy to control, the Kerf subwoofer at the back to add that BOOM!!!! to the entire building!!!!
Thanks for sharing. BTW here I focus on stereo.
Thank you Hans! - Investing in a good sub is a “sound investment “ ;-)
👍🏼
Ive ordered a Rel t9/I - thanks for the info !
I’ve had a Rel for about 5 years. It’s excellent with the dual gain controls and high and low level inputs.
Good choice!
I Run 2 months Rel t9 and your choice is perfect..
👍🏼
Excellent!
🙏🏽
Very interesting, Hans. I am considering (maybe even a pair of) REL T7i's for my KEF Reference 3/2's. A few years ago I added Townshend 'Maximum' Supertweeters and was astonished at the air and presence and improved imaging: *my wife came to the shop with me and after several A/B comparisons insisted I buy them* - I suspect that adding one or two REL's will make an even more dramatic improvement. I will have to find a serious dealer and borrow some. I'm hoping that my Exposure amplifier will then not have to work so hard (the KEFs are 4 Ohms). All the best, Rob
Most subwoofers, including REL's, have internal amps so they will not pose any problems for your amp. Just connect REL's with the supplied cable to the loudspeaker terminals on your amp, in parallel to the normal loudspeaker cable.
I have NHT C-1 speakers with a Yamaha 8 inch sub in my modest living room system and it is very necessary. I use the speaker level inputs to take the bass load off of my little mains. I have Klipsch R-28F speakers with dual 8 inch woofers in my man cave system. I probably don't need a Velodyne 12 inch sub with these, but I had it, so why not use it. I use the speaker level input on this one as well. I feel fine.
Enjoy the music
I have a Bluesound Power Node 2021...just added a Bluesound Pulse+ subwoofer.
A subwoofer will make it feel as if you're in the room when it was recorded instead of just listening to a recording. It pressurizes the air in the room and really gives heft to a sound. It should integrate in such a way that it sounds like it's coming from your main speakers. A really good track to test this on is Halloween - Tiny Room Sessions. When that drumline hits it literally feels like I'm transported to that room. Such a wild experience. Another good track is DjRUM - Creature, Pt. 1 . I got absolute chills when that bass sweeps, something which is completely lost when I turn off my subwoofer and just let the bookshelfs do all the work.
For a copule of years back i owned a pair of JMR/Orfeo, which is a big 2 1/2 way floor stander, that i didn't thought needed more bass? But after my dealer convinced me of trying out a Velodyne DD10 Sub, i was into it. I ended up buying the sub, even it was pretty expensive for a Sub, it gave my system the needed control in the lows. Fast forward, i have another system today, that maybe (or maybe not) needs attention too, regarding the lows.? But as i'm about to move, i will wait to see what my new living room is about? But the learning for me was that, to add a sub is not only for more bass, but for a better overall lows.
👍🏼
Hans, I hope your recovery is going well. I have been watching older videos today in an attempt to learn what subwoofer path I should take.
For framework I have a treated, mid sized listening room. Speakers are circa 1988 Tannoy FSMs, Pass Labs INT 25, Innuos Zen3 Streamer,
Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC with added Reclocker, Uptone Audio Etherregen. I have visited several people's homes around the US who have well developed systems. They all use at least 2 subs. I have none. The Tannoys only go down to 40hz. My Question for you is- Should my next move for improved sound be to add a pair of Powered Subs? Thanks! And heal up soon!!
While Hans hasn't reacted to your post yet I will:).
While 2 subs are amazing, you can always get one sub, see how you like it and later on buy a second one. Do not over think it. I went for a rel t/5x and in my small room it's amazing for the money. I can always buy a second one, but just one already improved my set-up greatly. Your tannoys go pretty low, but it's nothing compared to a real sub. I would suggest buying a t/7x because that one will get a little lower than the t/5x. Btw try a test tone to see how low the tannoys really get. Most of the time it will get down to the 40s but it's not detailed and will only reproduce a couple of details not the whole spectrum. Where a sub will reproduce a whole spectrum and details that you never heard before even in the high 40s. Good luck!
Very useful video for non engineering background people, who are enthusiastic but doesn't know all those jargons..Easy to understand, well explained tutorial for me👍
🙏
Great review, excellent timing since I'm adding a subwoofer to my PrimaLuna Classic amp together with my MA RX8. Using method 3 i believe that no power will be drained from amp, just the signal, correct? Thanks for your videos.
Correct
Hi Hans, another great video. How about adding a second subwoofer?
Yes, absolutely
More the better if you can afford.
My biggest issue with a sub in my audio system is mechanical feedback through turntable’s tone arms. I think it’s essential to have a low high pass filter which most subwoofer crossovers do not have. I have had much better results with “full range” speakers. This is especially true with subs like REL which have down firing woofers or radiators. I love the R7ti but not on a floor that isn’t concrete. Just my experience.
It means that your turntable is not functioning well, of low quality or not placed on a sturdy shelf. Or all three. Don’t blame the sub for that!
Hi Hans. For what it is worth, you are right about the high level input being superior. Firstly it brings a little of the tone of the amp to the sub, also the impulse is timed correctly. I have had loads of subs over the years. I settled on either REL, or best bang for buck, are BK Electronics (a hidden gem of a brand), with the PR version being fantastic.
Ps I have ProAc main speakers, rated from 20hz, and yet I still very much benefit from a sub, or best of all, stereo subs. 'Enjoy the music' with your subwoofer/s. :0)
Thanks for sharing
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Thanks for the content Hans. The calm voice of reason in a crazy world.
@Chris I would go for the 12 imch P/R subs from BK. Save a bunch of cash too. I have the older 10 inch versions. The PR models are with ones with one active and one passive driver. Give them a whirl. Just make sure you go high level input. Very fast, tight and musical in presentation. The newer 12 inch version will be better in every way but size. Enjoy. :0)
Just try it
Je hebt gelijk ,het is niet allen jou keuze, maar dat is ook zo ,de beste connectie van een sub is met speaker terminal
De timing en de kwaliteit van de bass is hetzelfde als bij de front speakers
👍🏻
Once again very good stuff 👍 Investing in a good sub is a “sound investment “. I hear what you did there😂
Absolutely
The Hans Beekhuyzen Channel I’m jumping in. Just ordered a Bluesound Node 2i. Thanks to you and others I’m going to see where this takes me. This may get expensive. I’m reading your book now so I can get a better understanding. I find myself replaying many of your videos as my knowledge level improves. Thank you for your content
Enjoy the music 😀
@@Steveh817 You will love it!
Ronald Hoppus I suspect one thing will lead to another and therefore more money. This pandemic has been expensive now that I spend more time at home. After 31 years of no hifi in the house I’ve dusted off the La Scalas and Dual 604 and acquired a Schiit Freya+, XTZ Edge, Project Tube Box DS2, awaiting the arrival of the Node 2i. If I keep watching Hans I’ll no doubt have a better DAC, streamer, network bridge and who knows what else? Three months ago I didn’t know what a DAC was.🤪
Hi Hans, you mentioned some songs... could you list them on the description above...
You can switch on subtitle if my accent makes it hard to understand
I’ve been using a Rel for about five years. I have high praise for it. Awesome how it uses both high level input and low level input with seperate gain controls. Works great for the home theatre amp via the LFE and great for the high end stereo amp using the high level input, method 3.
I agree. I use it the same way
I believe I've missed something which in my experience is one of the important point over setting and placement of the subs.....which is the "phase" coherency of the output wave transmitted by all units of the system. In many cases, syncronizing the Xover frequency below 80Hz and capable only to shift (180°/reversing) the polarity, aren't good enough to bring the system seamlessly sounding and this occurs on notes within the crossover frequencies region. It can also cause confusion especially when there's no option to mount the subs further apart to the satellites. In my experience experimenting in designing and setting subwoofer arrangement, I found out that a subwoofer filter with an incremental adjustable phase shifter may provide the advantage way more compared to other Xover filter that have only a 180° phase shifter switch. As a matter of fact, our ear and brain is too much advance and capable to detect any mismatch phased wave reproduced by any components of the system.
Anyway thank you for your nice and detailed explanation.
Have a great day👍
80 Hz has a wave length of 4.25 meters so phase is less important than one might suspect....
Great video, thanks. What are your thoughts on using REW to help assess and set crossover and level settings please?
I have not reviewed REW so I can't say.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel if you haven't used REW software, then you should give it a go, especially for assessing frequency responses. I just starting my REW adventure, so would be very interested in your views on it as a tool to help optimise a set-up for a particular room.
It's hard for me to understand how you can maximise REW or similar software without following the approach of Earl Geddes. His work on subwoofers in audio was ground breaking, check out his videos.
Thanks Hans 👍
My Rel T5i is good enough for my small to medium but open room.
Some says is better to use two subs. Whats your idea about it? I dont get the point. and ... enjoy the musik!
I was surprised he did not talk about adding 2 subs instead of just one. Most people recommend using 2.
As I said in the video, the more bass speakers the better. But they will be harder to set up.
The Hans Beekhuyzen Channel 👍👍👍
Hi Hans thanks for a good explanation. On subwoofers
I have just bought a used REL T7I but I don’t get the wow everybody talks about.
It’s 100% connected to my class D amp from Bluesound. And Audiovector speakers REL support was a great help.
I moved the sub adjusted level and crossover but with no luck some times I can turn it off and don’t hear the difference. Other times it works OK.
My next try is to connect via RCA and use the sub out. Dropping the REL connection
And choose sub is connected on Bluesound.i think the automatic tone control in the Bluesound is playing with my REL a trick. If I turn automatic tone control off the sound is ****. Has any of you experts tried something like this.
I can't give personal support, I'm afraid. But work in this order. Switch off any tone control, place the subwoofer as described in my video "Subwoofer placement and settings" (th-cam.com/video/-5pehTOZeV4/w-d-xo.html) and when that's done, use the Dirac room correction.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel thank you Hans after seeing you video moved my sub on the outside of the speakers closer to the side wall and toed it in like the speaker. so it coud use the other side wall. i belive my problem i have large long living room witch is open at the other end of the sub and speakers, i now get more deep notes.
👍🏼
An evil thing some dealers used to do: demonstrate satellite/bookshelf speakers and "forget". a subwoofer was on. Had it happen to me twice.
The world is Grimm from time to time
What about connecting a sub woofer to an active speakers like Klipsch The Sixes? Does it add more bass or replace the low frequencies altogether? I mean, what happens inside the speakers and how does it know which frequencies to send to the sub woofer?
I have never tried.
What do you think of open 2.1 stereo headphone sound, i.e. subwoofer and open headphones? I've enjoyed it for sound and feel. (Neighbors are not close LOL)
I have no opinion on headphones. I don'l like to wear them. Sorry
Hans, does a subwoofer-out connection provide the entire frequency range of a signal or does it limit it thus acting like a crossover? I'm sure it varies from receiver/pre-amp/integrated amp but I'm wondering if you can explain how it generally works.
If there is a sub out, these mostly is a dub out mode. Often in a menu but sometimes activated by plugging in the plug into the sub out. There might be not too many products nowadays that send the full bandwidth through the sub out and leave it to the sub to filter.
Thank you for that information your tutorials are concise and easy to understand lm a 2 channel type audiophile even in theatre setup i use a variety of amplifiers good cd transports and top of line bluray players BUT nothing is more surgical than the speakers i prefer to by hi- end speaker for music and they in turn are used for home theatre i have used a cambrige sub years back with my entry level speakers it sounded great @ i own a variety of speakers kefs , altec lansing , custom designed set also and i find the need for a subwoofer not always warranted
Thanks for sharing
Does your stereo need a sub?: Always
Does any high end equipment have proper sub woofer outputs with crossover?: Never
You can connect the sub(s) to the loudspeaker terminals like REL advises. I find that the best way to get really good integration.
I’ve got a set of kef r500 and music fidelity m3 amp and always though they lacked something, I think I try adding a sub. Do you think it’s better to match it with a kef sub or maybe consider a Rel or is it a case of just listening and seeing if I can get a demo
I have no experience with the KEF products so I can't say.
If you need a demo (and you do) then, for the reasons Hans explains in the video, go to a dealer with a demonstration room that compares to your own listening room at home, and a system comparable to what you have at home, that the sub needs to complement.
Because if they don't meet these criteria, you do not even have to consider "trust".
In short, if your dealer would allow you to evaluate in your own home next to your own system, then you only have to trust your own ears.
Amen
Yes.
😄
Everything always needs a sub or 8. It's all about that bass!
No, it isn’t
:)
Any thoughts or experience with rythmik subs ?
None
I like your Timothy Leary logic to information. Don't trust me, I know what I'm saying.
go easy on the illegal substances please
I have REL subs also. Nothing worse than hearing people say how good their "boomy" "cheap" subs are.
I know
I calculated that between 20Hz-100Hz the average! distance for highest peaks/nodes is between 4,2875m and 2,075656968m (but I may be wrong)
Wave length is 340/frequency. So for 20 Hz: 340/20=17 meter. Half a wave length is the first mode so that is 8.5 meters. For 100 Hz that is 5 x shorter, so 1.7 meters
Took 343/frequency (20°C, norm.press.) but thought ¼λ to be the highest peak (½λ=0) - (100Hz=3,43m => 3,43m/4=0,8575m) - (20Hz=17,15m; ¼=4,2875m). 4,3m is quite a distance. So I calc. an average (20Hz-100Hz) to get a practicable distance/range for the subwoofer. Just got the idea to re-calculate it with ¾λ for the higher frequencies (100Hz=2,57m(¾)). This will narrow the range. Tnx and greetings.
Stereo image at 80hz?
Just try it, you'll be amazed. But it doesn't work with vinyl since during cutting the lows are made mono.
If a subwoofer increases the evenness of sound pressure throught the room then why move the subwoofer around in the room?
For a placement different from the main speakers causes the evenness
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel The unevenness of the evened out bass 5:34
2 subs changed my system for the better. I could never go back now.
I understand.
I don't understand the part about your amp/receiver cutting off frequencies below say, 80hz to your main speakers if your amp has a sub out with an 80hz crossover. I've never heard of this. The receiver should still output its full range to your speakers. The crossover is only for the sub output. Maybe there are certain receivers that do this and want the do not. For instance, Yamaha 2-channel Hi-Fi receivers have a sub output with a crossover of 80 Hertz. But the output your main speakers isn't suddenly cut off to 80 hz. It will go as low as your main speakers specs can handle. So I'm confused by this. I want my main speaker is going as low has the manufacturer intended AND my sub doing the work as well.
The receiver should do what the designer wants it to do and there are designers that have your vision but also ones that think different and haver the main channels filtered.
I get it . SUBS win, Hans down. Provided they are room corrected. More great info, Professor Beekhuysen. Which is why I SUBscribe to this channel.
Just one point I’d like to add for your consideration. There’s another benefit I’ve found with correct, active, (sub)bass management : when the woofer’s are relieved of low end duties, it greatly simplifies their job, causing a perceptible increase in mid range performance. I can hear this in my own system, which is why I swear by subs!
I don’t use a sub in my system, but if you need one is all up to listerner.
True, but how do you know if you need one if you have never tried.....
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel i have a sub But run in mostly with movies only prefer to hear the bass performance on the fronts when listen to music this just my opinion of course
Hans - with some RELs and the dual sub on the nad m33 would you still recommend speaker line integration or use the outputs?
I am not sure. Perhaps with Dirac using the sub outputs might bring better result. I had the M33 only for a short time and no time to test it that way.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Hi Hans thank you for your reply. My m33 will be in soon and I shall test that out
Only one subwoofer? How about two?
Yes, even four give more improvement
I think you forgot to iron the collar of your shirt. Thanks for the vid.
You're right!
I'll save you 12 minutes, yes, get a sub.
😁
I completely trust and respect Hans, but I will never agree that a subwoofer is the answer to your bottom issues! Connect speakers with the correct impedance and wattage ratings so that the speakers are performing at rip-top shape with the correct Ohm rating and wattage requirements!
I am afraid we indeed disagree strongly. Your model simplifies things greatly. But then again, if it works for you: enjoy the music.
A bass speaker, subwoofers are just kickers and lack what is really needed for a good sounding system.
I second that
I have two 12 inch subs in my office and it's totally overkill hahaha ..I love bass and pissing off my neighbors!!
I'm not sure I meant that....
No. It needs two.
Three is even better....
A sub is a total waste in a small room. The room cutoff could be 40hz.
Nonsense
@behexen250 fair question.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Nonsense? What's the point of a sub in an 8'x10' room?
@behexen250 The room down the hall will get all the bass that doesn't happen in your room. I've done this 25 years, same result no matter who does it.
If bass extension is limited by the room size then why am I able to hear low bass notes when listening to music on my headphones? The distance between the headphone driver and my ears is tiny but they still manage to reproduce those bass notes.