I was convinced that you only need 1 subwoofer, so I did a lot of investigating on info of having 2 subs. I decided to order another one same make and model. WOW, adding the 2nd one really improved the overall sound of my system. I WILL NEVER GO BACK TO ONLY 1 SUB.!!!!!
Great video. I am running KEF LS50s with a single REL T5i in a small room and very happy with the result. To make myself even more happier I am looking to buy a second sub. The reason you’d want two subs is not stereo sound, but to get your frequency response as flat as possible. Flat response is almost impossible to achieve with a single sub in a typical room. You will have peaks and dips, meaning that at some frequencies your sub will sound louder and at some - quieter. The differences in loudness between frequencies can be as big +-10-20db, so it is very noticeable.Those peaks and dips depend on the positioning of the sub in the room, so when you have two subs located in opposite sides of the room their frequency graphs will blend together and provide much more natural and balanced bass.
I find by having dual subs the integration being a whole lot smoother/easier, it's probably because i have two Rel 8" down-firing T5is positioned behind the couch, which are 6"-8" away from the corners and having them both connected to each individual stereo speaker binding posts (high level input) The biggest compliment I get is when a guest/friend ask.... "how come you get such a huge sound from at such a small speaker" 😁
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment you 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
I have several pairs of speakers setup in a modest arc in my listening room combined with one subwoofer for one of my systems. I have found toe in tuning of both the speakers and the sub enhances the overall balance of sound. For my surround system I have a separate 15” sub in a corner location and sitting on a large marble tile to aid in dispersion. For testing I have used demo frequency response disk and my favorite bass recording is Leo Lyon’s recording of “Faro” from Ten Years After Stonedhedge. It features several bass guitars together across the soundstage. Enjoy!
OHM A's and F's are fantastic speakers. Heard the A's when they came out in the 70's and the F's later. Tempted to buy a pair, but don't think they would go well we my Khorns.
Hey! I never comment videos on youtube but I'm glad I did it so you changed your mind on subs. Glad you saw the links I sent you too, Paul McGowan is indeed very good at teaching all his knowledge. So again, I'm really happy you get one and experimented with it, although I have one comment to make (who doesn't?): You say that you don't need a sub if your speakers go bellow 20hz, and I am not comfortable with that idea. As I told you, and you surely saw it on McGowan's video, a servo sub is not all about low frequencies, but helping the mids too, because it is servo-controlled. If your passive speakers go to let say 18hz, it will not be as good and clean as a 18hz servo-sub (because it is servo-controlled (inertia etc...)). So a sub is not only for low frequencies but for mids as well. It can do wonders on voices for exemple (but I'm sure you have experience it by now). Apart from that I'm really glad you changed your mind and get one. I have to say I don't own one (just changed my speakers and amp so it has to wait a bit), but I heard what it can do. I continue to watch all you videos and I'm glad someone like you is out there teaching new members of our community. I'd also be glad to communicate and exchange ideas and experience with you, if you're interested of course. Send me a message and I'll give you my mail, facebook or whatever. Keep doing what you do, you're doing a great job!
Hi Joseph! Yes, yours and other comments as I said got me thinking. Its the same principle of the supertweeters. Yes, of course, lower frequencies develop the midrange but also a part of the upper frequencies. But that is not a special feature of subs. Even a loudspeaker with good, deep bass, will obviously do the job and even better. Subs are necessary only when your loudspeakers are inefficient in the lower register. Just like supertweeters for the highs.
Good video my man. Thank you! I got myself rel t5i subwoofer and it was the best purchase I made in a long time. The bass was tight and fast comparing to my old $300 subwoofer. Like you said better wait and get the right sub than waste on the cheap one.
I'm sure you were impressed just as much as I was when we first experienced our Rels. If you to purchase another one not only would you find the integration a whole lot smoother/easier but you would finally realise what your room sounds like at its full low-end potential! In fact I was just as impressed as with my first as with the second!!!
I got the T5i and it was the Best thing I've done. When I've turned the sub off of a night sometimes I forget the next day and put sounds on and it sounds thin, I nearly had a panic attack until I realised 🙃! 😎
My Polk T15 speakers supposedly cover the whole range. Obviously they don’t. I added a Yamaha 8” sub and wow. Now that’s my modest but really full range (for the price point, I mean) hi-fi system, and I’m happy with it (for now) 😉
My DENON AVR-3808 is powering all TANNOY Revolution R2 and R3 speakers and has dual TANNOY TFX subwoofers connected to the LFE/subwoofer preout of the DENON. Obviously the system is a complete home theatre with decent capabilities of sound reproduction for my music listening at 2 channel stereo. I tried connecting High level input signal to subwoofers and low level RCA, however the best way to do it is through the dedicated LFE/Subwoofer preout as the Audyssey MultEQ-XT calibration does room calibration and gives a good result when matching the time alignment of all the speakers and combines the subwoofers together. Any other way is fine but I find this the best approach for bass management, crossover settings distance and time alignment of all speakers/subwoofers compared to the high or low level input signal I've tried.
Very clear and great content. Super USEFUL! I have not had a two-channel stereo for decades. I recently studied electronics over several months and so built a Valve Amplifier. This was quite a challenge. Your channel has been EXTREMELY useful for me to understand the other components involved in HiFi set up. THANK YOU!
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment you 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
the subs I have are dual 18inch and they are not for home tbh aka PA dual sub I got to get some speakers that are made for homes and shelves tbh @@anadialog
Another point to consider on wether or not, is what size speakers your system has, my system is made up of bookshelf speakers that simply dont have the bass capacity of say a tower speaker, so my sub compliments the smallet bookshelf speaker. Very informitive video by the way.
Great video!!! I have the B&W ASW608 sub I just purchased. I have a Denon 9.2 receiver. Do I connect both "line out" cables to the receiver, or just one? Sorry, new to being an audiophile. I have a B&W 9.1 setup going (2 atmos speakers included) (no amp, just receiver)
You covered all the basis here I have used both Rel and Vandersteen both hook up to the amplifier and I have owned both. My current Vandersteen speakers have subs built in. Good advise here, keep it coming.
I find by having dual subs the integration being a whole lot smoother/easier, it's probably because i have two Rel 8" down-firing T5is positioned behind the couch, which are 6"-8" away from the corners and having them both connected to each individual stereo speaker binding posts (high level input) The biggest compliment I get is when a guest/friend ask.... "how come you get such a huge sound from at such a small speaker" 😁
Hello. Kef KC62 vs Rel T7i comparison? Thanks. My speaker Xavian Perla Esclusiva + HegelH90 Briliant middle and hight frequency but low under 53 Hz not so much. I glad upgrade for this. Very educational video.
Wow...got this question...what do you think of a sub that goes down to 50hz? I got a Monoprice sub with an 8 inch drive and it says it goes down to 50hz. That's kind of weak isn''t. I got a pair of Sony SSCS5, and I'm waiting for the cables to come so I can hook everything up.
@@anadialog In other words, return the item is that right? So me being on a fixed income, maybe save for a few more months and get either a REL if I can find one for about $400 or $500, or a SVS...or maybe wait for one to go on sale?
You’ll need to get in touch with REL with regards to the crossover. They will tell you that you’ll need to overlap by 6-8hz and not go under and create a frequency hole. This is for seamless integration and to improve the midrange. If you are referring to John hunters video in upscale audio, REL will explain that further.
Yes, I do see a lot of people suggest that, and others say not to do that. The best, as I said, is to bump each other 40hz sub with 40hz speakers (for example). Since it's difficult I think it's better not to overlap, but again, you are right. a lot of people think overlapping is better. I the end, the best thing is to try all three possibilities and pick the one that sounds more natural!
@@anadialog Overlapping is always better idea. Every classic speaker lost some dB at the edge of its range. So you may have lets say 40 Hz but with effectiveness of minus 3 or even 6 dB. When you set you sub exactly at 40 Hz then you may hear frequences between 55 to 40 Hz (for intance) as a 'hole in sound'. Thats why overlapping is good idea.
Question : If you have an AV amp with LFE pre out sub connected (5.1) and want to connect it for 2channel stereo as well via the speaker terminals.., is that possible ?
Hi, really helpful video. Any recommendations for a sub for Yamaha NS10’s? Am using them as main reference speakers in home studio. But they are lacking in low end. Many thanks in advance👍🏾😄
I have a friend who is telling me to get one good single down firing ported subwoofer (I have real oak hardwoods) says if I get a second one it will add complications with cancellations in parts of my room. Is that not true and I would be better with two subs? I don't notice any dead spots in my room. 18'L x 14'W x 12'H Oak floor Vaulted ceiling, open archway to another large room. I have a 5.1.2 Atmos (heights) setup with SVS Prime Towers and Satellites . My sub is a single Klipsch R10sw 300w. REL seems a bit pricy, was looking at SVS SB2000, SB3000, PB2000. Advice?
Two subs are always butter but at that point, if expensive, consider upgrading your speakers. No you shouldn't have any phase problems if you choose subs with phase selection.
Nice im enjoying my first sub Focal cub 3. And another point get a soundcard that has bass management and room correction you can change the +/-db, crossover in realtime you can sync easily the sub and loud speaker.
Hi, when we set main stereo speakers as per secret speaker placement you know. The soundstage space is the area/ in line which sub sounds best,and slitely less on crossover frequency spectrum and high on volume to match main speakers.
I build my own subwoofer with a 1000 watts Sunfire 10" driver and a Skar Audio enclosure, with such power, then my problem is rattling noises all over the house, I am trying to decouple the subwoofer from the carpet, I will try to do that with pool noodles as my starting point, worst scenario is to get those fancy isolators from SVS. Thank you for sharing all this information.
REL Connection; I have REL also and studied about that connection subject. Connection should be .1/LFE + High level input. Please do not forget High level connection to amp's speakers outputs are power not only signal. Mean front left right are passive tower speakers. To sencronise their phase and sub REL solved it very well but you should connect High Level also. Last point DO NOT connect High level and Low level inputs at the same time , you can harm your "not cheap" REL. Thanks all your info.
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment your 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
Love your videos, thanks again. I have the 2020 model ATC 40's with 2x SVS sb2000 subs so similar to you. I absolutely love my music sessions, I'm very lucky to own my HiFi. (powered by Michi P5/S5).
Thanks for a well thought out video! However, what if your sub has no hi level inputs? I am using a vintage marantz receiver with no sub out. Most subs today have only low level inputs, svs, klipsch etc. I have restricted myself to shopping for subs with high level inputs and as a result I am concerned that I will not get the best deal or the best sub. Thank you
Get rid of the sub it was designed for just home theater...If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment your 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy 2 with high level inputs and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
adam withers I have the bic f 12 for a 2.1 setup and I think it’s fine for most applications - not perfect but once you get it dialed in, I think you’ll be happy
what happen if u have an 3 channel amp on a stereo setup?? can i hook up or use that third empty channel for the sub in a passive way?? does the volume knob will work?
Hi, Love the video. I accidentally sampled your voice on my kaossilator. Wondering if I could keep it as it sounds good. Talking about speakers for about 5 seconds.
I bought a rel back when they were new. I blew the amp years after the warranty expired. Fixed it for free anyway didn't even have to pay shipping. Just told me to take it back to the store I bought it from. That's when Richard Lord (the R and L) was still there.
Guido, another great video- love your content. OK, you are dead on with point Number 6. Swapping the body position with subwoofer for maximum sound using ears as guide is - spot on. Keep up the GREAT fun work. (BTW, I purchased a cheap subwoofer- I know, I am sorry, for my ol 1971 Bang and Oulfsen Beovox 2650's and even on the cheap it was the best bang for the buck for my antiquated NAD 300 watt amp.)
I have an 8 inch H&K but I'm going to get a 12 ..But i really want stereo 12's .. there are a lot of pad sounds especially in ambient music where the bass is in stereo
Hello , I love your show. What about an amplifier that is able to turn off the base to the main two speakers and just allow the Bass to go to the subwoofer, is that a good idea .should Bass be left on the main speakers and the sub woofer at the same time. My amp is able to turn the low frequency off to the main two speakers and go to subwoofer only. Or should the base be left on and the sub at the same time
Yes, probably using a crossover. If your sub has a good frequency extension and overlaps the midrange of the speakers then, sure, you can use your sub only. Obviously do a test, your ears are the beat judge.
I have Amphion Impact 400 subwoofer and white Amphion Ion L speakers. The placement of the subwoofer is not optimal because I hear some boom with certain music, but that cannot currently be helped. I still think they are better combo than my ears deserve but hey, why buy mediocre stuff if you get good gear used 😄 One thing of note about subwoofer placement is that if you live in building where houses are next to each other, basing it to the floor might have annoying consequences to your neighbors.
Excellent video Sir! As an adjunct to your thoughts... I use a single REL SHO-5 with my system and have recently moved to a large home in Washington from a townhome in California. I have not had the opportunity to unpack my sub yet. I've also been moving my system around the main room and finally found the best room placement for the "whole" system... Part of the change was also going from a concrete foundation in CA to a wooden elevated foundation in WA. Other issues include cathedral ceilings (16 ft) and these new combined rooms (Living room, kitchen and non-formal dining area all together) present BIG challenges for us audiophiles to tackle (reverb, echo, huge space to fill with sound, delayed rear reflections, smearing, large windows, hard surfaces everywhere, flexible wood foundation/flooring). So, long story short... I'm getting closer to finishing my system, but noticed immediately that the life/fullness of the music has diminished greatly without my sub in the system! It's one of those things that once you experience it, you just can't be satisfied with less. So, that is one of my weekend projects. To get the life back in my music. On another note, I found that moving my system to a different wall greatly improved the system resistance to the echo and reverb (probably because the rear boundary is now not just a flat wall and I am now parallel with the cathedral ceiling and equidistant from the side walls. It is tough to place a system in a weirdly proportioned room! I had to take over the non-formal dining area for my right speaker... (yes, Bachelor. But would give it up for the right woman! Hahaha... only the right speaker area of course!). Also, buying area rugs throughout and will look into sound absorption to tame reverb/echoes. [I have a nice system consisting of Focal 1038BE II Main speakers (Very good, but I want better someday), REL SHO-5 sub x 1( Excellent, and I can't afford 2 yet.) Primaluna Dailogue HP Integrated Amp (Beautiful and powerful sound...) with PS Audio DirectStream DAC (Wonderful!!) and CD Player (Amazing) and Phono PreAmp (very good). Blusound Node 2i streamer (great for the money). I also have an Oracle Audio Origins Turn Table (good sound, but clunky ergonomics of usage and very susceptible to outside vibration) and SoundSmith cartridge (Amazing!!).All cabling is DH Labs (Excellent value proposition... 30%the cost for 95%the performance.!) Cables DO make a huge difference!! I did A/B/C comparisons with my system above and it was immediate and HUGE!! Tested Streetwires (car audio- my beginnings are High end Car Audio) 12g OFC Ultra Speaker Cable (Very good basic cable, Bulk=$500 for 250ft.) vs Nordost Heimdall 2 (Excellent silver plated lower high range cable, $2400 for 3 meter pair) vs DH Labs Q-10 Signature (Excellent Long grained Copper Silver plated cables within excellent value proposition! $850 for a 3 meter pair) The Nordost was night and day to the Streetwires and better than the DH Labs, but not by much! Differences included definition, clarity, presence, soundstage, Frequency response (slight upper frequency roll-off with the Streetwires. None for the others (due to the better conductor material my guess). Yes, Silver conductors make significant differences. Try Stinger 9000 series car audio Interconnects (
@Brian Shoemaker Hi there! Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this. Sorry for my late asnwer. I just can say...what a fabulous system you have there! Truly amazing! I haven't decalred this yet on the channel but I got your same amp and it is truly outstanding. I would love to put my hands on those PS audio streamers...wow! Considering your question and your gear, maybe the loudspeakers could be upgraded...but seriously, both Focal and Oracle audio TT are excellent pieaces of gear. Let me know if you change your speakers...I am going to do that in the future...
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment your 2 main speakers. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed. I never go higher than 8'' on the sub (less cone mass = faster more articulate bass) Larger tend to be boomy but provide impact in spades. If theater impact is the goal then by all means get an 18'' sub. If sound quality and articulation and resolution are the goal...two 8 '' subs running in stereo sharing connection with the two main speakers. Remember dial in your sub's...They should never draw attention to themselves, ever. It should always sound like your mains are making all that bass.
Fairly certain GR Research DIY cables will outperform most all the cables you listed (I have not heard them all) GR Research cost a fraction of what you paid.
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment you 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
I wish they had these subwoofers back in the 1980's! I bought an inexpensive downfiring Acoustic Audio PSW-10 subwoofer and what a difference it made matched with my old B&W DM11's. Changed my world! Picking a subwoofer is totally subjective. I like to feel it so I picked a down firing subwoofer. You gave some good advice thanks for sharing :)
Great video! I own a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP integrated tube amp (and from what I've seen I am pretty sure you have the same model) and I was wondering what kind of connnection you've used (my amp has a dedicated mono output). Thanks and greetings from Italy ;)
I have a dual monoblock class ab amp 300 watts 4ohm per channel driving my LR peerless 10” XLS sub in sealed Boxes super tight bass. My other 2 monoblock driving my 2.5 way all active using behringer active crossover superb system great soundstage
It depends from your subwoofer. You should set the crossover at your speakers lowest frequency or, test both, slightly lower than that in order to avoid a juxtaposition.
Excellent presentation! One think that’s a little bit tricky, is the corner positioning that you firstly propose..it raises by some db some frequencies of the sub’s spectrum, leading to some unwanted frequency boosting. I think that, in another video you must add a review for enhancing that low end frequency (or the whole) spectrum using a room analyzer!
Wow.. Awesome explanation!! Everything covered regarding setting up sub.. Have 1 question though currently have a sub taga harmony tsw 120 v2 which is on reverse phase, crossover at 35hz.. The thing is the volume only goes till about 20% of and if I put anything higher the sub cuts off and the power light starts blinking.. Any idea what could be the issue? Thanks for your time
@@MrAnkitmanchanda maybe the connection is the problem. Use the single sub output on your amp, as you are doing, and connect it to the single sub input, that is using a SINGLE RCA interconnect. Don't use the L and R inputs with the single sub output! In any case, since you have a high input connection, as I said in the video, you should be using those. Just connect each pair to each pair on the amplifier or to your speakers.
@@anadialog Apologies got the model no. of my sub wrong its SW-10 ver. 2.. and the Sub does not have single sub input.. it has 2 male RCA Low Input and only High Level Inputs hence had connected to L & R Inputs.. anyways I have ordered for a new Single input RCA cable and see how it performs.. Also, if result is the same then you think i should try and connect my sub on the High Level Inputs via Front L and R speakers and not use the Sub preout at all? Will this help?
If when I turn on my old and trusty REL Stentor, the sound gets 10 over ten, what would happen if I also did use supertweeters? The best positioning was the least expected, far from corners and in the middle of the right sidewall. Shocking.
On my desktop system, I keep my sub underneath the desk. I found that I needed to tilt the sub upwards. I looked at guitar amplifier stands that offers a safe and stabile way to tilt the sub so my ankles don’t feel the rumble. By doing this, the soundstage raises and I feel the bass at my chest and belly areas.
@@anadialog that's what I figured. I have an older design from Sandy Gross from about 12 years ago. Definitely technology BP7002. I wonder how they would hold up. I imagine the high frequency to be smoother with the ribbon tweeters. Hmmmmm
Great video. I have one question, i haven a pair of B&W 602 s2 speakers will they pair with a Focal SW700 subwoofer? Worth make this addition to my hifi system. Also i have an Yamaha s501 integrated amplifier. Thank you in advance.
Hi there, yes I think they would. If you can, try looking for a model that goes even more deep. The Focal stops at 36Hz, surely a great improvement from the 70Hz of the B&W.
Informative video. Thanks for posting it. You cover many good points that I hope your subscribers will find informative. My rig is from the early 1970s, including speakers. The sound is very good, but it was always missing a solid bottom end foundation that my vintage speakers could not deliver. Today's listeners might think I mean boom box type of bottom end, but I do not mean that at all. Steve Guttenberg's video was the first to change my mind about using a sub in a stereo system. After much research and help from John Hunter, Lead Designer and Owner of REL, I purchased a REL T/5i. John's input was absolutely instrumental in making the correct purchase for my system. The REL T/5i fits nicely into my vintage eco sound system and helps complete the total image of the soundscape. This was a good buy. Hands down. It adds the missing bottom end that my vintage speakers could not supply. The sound now exceeds my ears' expectations. It is more alive than I ever would have thought. Thanks again!
The best loudspeaker/s “systems” have ALWAYS been separates! Separates, ie. subwoofers have always offered “almost infinite” tuning options. So for example, “bookshelf (package)”speakers have been a myth of epic proportions! The example, within the example is the “loss” of sound stage, etc., when placed on the “bookshelves.” The myth has been perpetuated even to this day (2022). However, some to many audiophiles can’t even define sound stage to miss it, to really care.
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment you 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
I told ya bro!!! Once you go sub ya never go back!! Everyone needs multiple subs, no matter what your setup. I cannot emphasize how important it is to have more than one sub. Either 2 or 4. This will help “pressurize” the room and minimize any nulls. Rock on and keep up the awesome vids.!!
I put my sub underneath my desk. Then, I stuff the surrounding cavity with pillows and thick sheets of pink 2 feet by 2 feet insulation . Also, weighted down the sub with a bag of aquarium gravel. My desktop doesn’t rumble and my tubes feel practically vibration free.
Also, I use an iso-acoustics speaker stand that helps raise the sound. The floor no longer becomes a sound factor. I actually use metallic bubblewrap that has a slight bend to them. I tape that sheet where the bass waves will reflect upwards.
I have a room size of 15*16 ft and I’m confused between selecting 1. Focal Chora 826 (latest) or Focal Aria 946 2. AVR Denon 3700H vs 4700H 3. 2 SVS SB 1000 Pro or 1 SVS SB 2000 Kindly let me know your thoughts.
Very interesting vid. I've heard or read somewhere that it is possible to damage your main power amp when connecting the black wire from a REL to a negative connection on your amp. Is this true? Do I even need to connect the black wire? I assume it's an earth connection to reduce hum. I'm using a Meridian power amp and Focal aria 936's
I have two Rels hooked-up to each individual speaker binding posts and I've experimented with using black wire and non-black wire being hooked-up! All safe and sound!
Are you referring to a spelling mistake or something like that? It is true that I am Italian and make a lot of mistakes but the word Choose is spelt correctly...or am I missing something?
I agreed with you that the sound of a sub is not directional until i hooked them up in sterio. If you don"t beleve me put one on the left and one on the right and play Ringo"s drum solow on Abby Road. I AM NOT SWICHING MY SUBS BACK.
This is a subject that is often confused. Low frequencies being omnidirectional doesn’t mean you can’t localize them. Stars emit light in all directions and you can still localize them. Although it is true we can’t really localize very low frequencies (which again is a different topic than the fact that they are omnidirectional), you can start to localize them when your subwoofer reproduce the not-so-low frequencies. No crossover cut frequencies abruptly so it happens in all systems. And by the way, stereo subwoofers is the way to go, for multiple different reasons (it tends to correct for mode issues in your room, it lower distortion because you play your subwoofers lower, it improves the sense of space thanks to cues and reverberations being the information contained in those low frequencies, etc. etc.), so keep your dual subwoofers! Make sure you have them correctly integrated in stereo and with a proper dsp.
Maybe a dedicated home theater amp could but not a normal stereo amp, which os design for music. When you don't have any other connection solutions like in the past you use the subwoofer rca output.
Sub woofer output to splitter then splitter to cd channel on amp2. Hook up 4 car subs on speakers A and B left and right. I did that to my 7.1 and now it has 4 subs but all hetting the same signal. Each sub is in each corner of the room.
Grazie per il video molto esplicativo, ma ancora non riesco a settare nel modo giusto il livello del crossover. Le caratteristiche delle mi casse Elac dbr62, sono queste: frequency response 44hz-35000hz, 2 way bass reflex,impedance 6ohms, crossover frequency: 2200hz, sensitivity 86db@ 2.83v/1m. Io ho settato attualmente il crossover sui 75hz, ma non sono sicuro e non sono convinto del suono degli speakers. Forse tu potresti aiutarmi a trovare il giusto valore del crossover? Ti ringrazio in anticipo per la tua collaborazione.
L’unico vero modo per avere una sinergia perfetta purtroppo è quello di usare un DSP…ma ci possiamo accontentare. L’unico consiglio che posso dare è testare più frequenze e se possibile cambiare posizione nella stanza del sub
I got a M&K MX 350, M&K says they invented the sub satellite system. It's a 12" Push pull config. Speed & attack are why I like Sealed subs like this used SVS SB1000 I found.
Getting 2 rel t5i tomorrow to go with my 25 year old linn aktiv speaker amp setup, as it's in different room now and is lacking a little bass compared to before and I refuse to part with my setup and may get the hiquphon upgraded tweeter for my speaker next! BTW love your channel
@@anadialog OK I'm loving them so far very easy to set up connected them high level off the speaker outs spent around an hr fine tuning the crossover and level now they are sounding more like the flagship model that linn did at the time the keltic! Mine are the kieldh, Just ordered the hiquphon tweeter upgrade for them can't wait. Jim. edit. more tweaking and wow just played leftfield * leftism 2nd track omg my babies are back! AND BETTER THAN BEFORE SEAMLESS!
@@bat2137 my Rels would like to thank you for the Afro left track! 15 minute edit later: 'Song of life' WOW! I'll probably be back again so bollocks to this... the whole album going to my playlist!
Thank you! Awesome! I am considering the RSL Speedwoofer 10s. Seems it goes pretty low and well rated. Please advise.... Also I have a similar tile floor to yours in front of my small fireplace (unused and painted). I could put a subwoofer on anywhere in front, might it be good inside the fireplace? Love the blue gummy stuff idea! Thank you very much!!!
Seems very nice (looking at the specs and reviews), I haven't heard them, and an excellent price tag. If you decide to get it give us some feedback. The fireplace position will give some issues. It will dramatically increase the booming effect and it might echo in there. Try, but I am afraid that you are going to need to put some foam or some absorbent material for a more dry response.
is it really needed, to run two subs? I m owning a velodyne, a very good sub. But i cannot find another one, and those who were offered on Ebay are defective. So maybe it is a stupid question, but is it possible to use just one?
Of course you can use just one! Actually, most people use just one. We just have to remember that the optimal layout is with two subs, a stereophonic layout.
I just have a question for anyone really.. I am using the Elac B6.2 bookshelf speakers. The speaker specs claim they are 44hz on the low end.. What crossover frequency setting should I use on a subwoofer?
Hehe.. allora... I am really proud of my Speakers! They have the 12inch Subwoofer integrated, and these Subs are fully powered by one channel of my Poweramps. The left Channel, for example, powers the Bass, Midrange and Tweeter of my speaker, and the right channel feeds the integrated Subwoofer. And, in the second Loudspeakerbox, it goes the same way! There is an exact equal Poweramp that feeds the integrated Sub, and the second channel of this poweramp feeds the Bass, Midrange, and the Tweeter of this second Loudspeakerbox! This is called vertical Biamping, and this way i don`t need an active extra Subwoofer lurking around in my living Room. Only the Refrigrator-sized Loudspeaker, named as JBL 4341 Clones, need a quarter of my living-space in my flat lol.... And these 4341es have bass! lol. Deep as a black hole! So, what do i want to say: A passive Sub is also a proper solution! But in case of a passive Sub, you must go Bi-Amping! Then you have no Phase -Problems, and also no Power-Problems... ;-) (as long as the Poweramps have enough "Uhmpfff" lol....
@@anadialog Thats exactly what it is! The only challenge i had, was the design of the X-Overs. So i ended up with a Low-Pass for the Subs that roll of at ~500Hz, and for the Bass/midrange/Tweeter Section, i finalized it with a 3Way Divider with 1950Hz and 9150Hz Crossing Points. It took a while to figure out what i needed, but at last the Thing works how i wanted it to work. .... And to bring it to a Conclusion: A proper Subwoofer is a good thing for reproduction of Music! Or better said: Two of them! And, if one doesnt want to BiAmp, then it`s the Best to use an active Sub. Only if you have the possibility to build your Speakers by yourselve, you can go a more creative way than to buy every single Piece of your sound system.
@@anadialog But, all that said, for All that have not the possibility or/and ability to build their own Devices, it is highly recommended to follow this Video here. A proper Bookshelf Speaker, if it is worth and Sounds good, can be completed with an active Subwoofer. And two of them is always better. OK, we cannot really hear from where the low Frequencies are coming, but: We don`t listen only with our ears! Wa also listen with our Body. And so we can feel the Stage and the Imaging that 2 Subs add to the Main-Speakers. Its about Soundpressure, that we can feel with our Body, and the "Uhmpff" they deliver to the Stage in combine (to repeat myselve lol). The Case i prefer built in Subs is just, because i don`t like too many cables lurking around. I have cables enough due to my too many Turntables lol... (i must reduce the Number of TT`s down to 3... More is not convienient anymore), And if i can avoid the two Powercables that go to my external subs, i am satisfied. But, maybe, some day i build something like the AN3, the Speakers Paul Mcgowan showed us on his "Ask Paul" channel. OK, the Subs there will not be servocontrolled, because i don`t have the Knowledge howto design such an Amplifier, but - in my "AN3" like Speakers, i will build in a fixed D-Class Amp to power the subs, so that i can use a pretty little Tubeamp with about 30Watts x2 to feed the Rest of the speaker. And, to train a little bit my practise, i will build a Turntable with an integrated Tube-Preamp, and maybe i will build a Pair of 2Way Active Speakers - or maybe i integrate the Poweramp into the Turntable also, side by side with the Tube Phonostage. The Base TT will be a good and Pretty NOS Lenco L-236, that will get a very big and heavy Plinth, to have space enough for all the stuff ;-). But before i do this, i must learn how to produce a proper TH-cam Video, so i can show the progress of the building process. Maybe i can inspire the one or other here in our Community of Followers of the very informative Anadialog Channel!
@@bernhardmichaelfux308 Amen! I completely support your statement that we listen also with our body...the rest of the project looks and will most probably sound good...good luck!
There’s one thing you got wrong here which is the way to integrate the sub. 2 things. First, high level input is not the way to go because you basically add together the distortion of your amp and the one from the subwoofer amp. Second, and this is a very very important point, the frequencies you give to your subwoofer, you want to remove them from your main loudspeakers. There is no way you can achieve that by just changing some crossover point on your sub, it is only changing the frequencies your subwoofer will play, it doesn’t change anything to what is played by your main loudspeakers. If your loudspeakers are anything decent they will produce sound in the 50 Hz region and even if you set your subwoofer to the lowest crossover point, those frequencies will be boosted (crossover are usually -12dB per octave so even if you set your crossover to 30Hz there’s still ton of energy at 50Hz, or even higher). This 40-100Hz boost, because played by the subwoofer AND your loudspeakers, can be very pleasant to your ears but it’s not high fidelity at all. There is no way around having a device that will actually precisely send low frequencies to your subwoofer and higher frequencies to your main loudspeakers. The usual route to do so is using a minidsp device that goes before both your loudspeakers/amp and your subwoofer(s). It can’t be done at the subwoofer level, except if you can connect your main loudspeakers to the subwoofer (which then actually act as a dip device).
Hi there, well you are describing intrinsic subwoofer problems not mistakes. Its a matter of choices of the lesser evil. High level may add distortion, it depends, it is not necessary automatic and/or not necessarily very strong, but at least the timing is perfect and BTW recommended by REL itself so I kind of tend to follow their suggestions. Same problem for the second issue. Its something you must deal with with all subs as I do with my super tweeters and that is also why I was reticent to install these. In any case I prefer to have a full range with some crossingover that the mere frequency range of my speakers. It is obvious that the best way to go is always going to be to have these all integrated within the loudspeakers themselves.
@ANA[DIA]LOG You didn’t get my point. You will always need a crossover, in all cases, the point is not that having a crossover is bad. The issue is that currently you only have a crossover at your subwoofer, your main loudspeakers receive the full signal. It’s the worse situation, it’s not a matter of the lesser evil. Your loudspeakers will play sounds 30-40Hz (at -12dB) to let’s say 16-20kHz. That’s the frequency range of your loudspeakers. Since a crossover is usually -12dB / octave, it means that when you setup the crossover of your subwoofer to the lowest point, 30Hz, it will still play sound at 63Hz at -12dB (this is 1 octave higher than 30Hz). You still are playing sounds from 30-40Hz to 63Hz basically 2 times, from your subwoofer and from your loudspeakers. This is at the lowest crossover setting. Since your subwoofer go to 28Hz the lowest (that’s their specs, at -6dB), setting the crossover to 30Hz would be odd because it’s lower than what your subwoofer can produce at 0dB, meaning most people will use a higher setting, which make the situation even worse because now even more frequencies are played both by your subwoofer and your loudspeakers. The issue here is not the crossover on your subwoofer, the issue here is that you don’t have the opposite crossover on your loudspeakers. Again, the only way to do that is to have a crossover than not only filter (i.e. remove) high frequencies that go to your subwoofer but also filter low frequencies from your loudspeakers. This is exactly the same logic for a super tweeter, only in reverse. If you add a super tweeter to your loudspeakers without removing the frequencies that go to your super tweeter from your loudspeakers it will be atrocious. Again, some high frequencies will be played 2 times and thus boosted. It’s very hard to tune this by ears except if you really know what a transparent system should be, because our ears love more bass and love more highs, so you will have a tendency to be pleased by those boosts. As for the high level input, it doesn’t correct for timing in itself, because timing depends on the placement of your subwoofer, not on the fact that your subwoofer is connected the same way your loudspeakers are. It’s all pure and simple logic, you can do the thinking on your own, I’m no REL I have nothing to sell (by the way the argument of REL for high level input is not really timing, it’s that your subwoofer will receive the same « coloration » from your system.. well.. this is another discussion..). If your loudspeakers are 2m from you and your subwoofer is 3m from you, there is no way they will be on the same timing, even if your subwoofer is connected via high level input. Your ears will have receive the signal later, period. The only way to correct for this is to add delay, on one side or the other depending on the placement of your subwoofer and your loudspeakers. You have a science approach to what we do, which is good, this is science.
@@Maxime-ho9iv yes, I do understand and I was underlining the fact that you must decide for the lesser evil: keep a sub and deal with these intrinsic issues or get rid of it and loose some low-end. In fact you confirmed my super tweeter concern. You need to decide what is more important for you or actually what sounds best to your ears. Numbers come always after IMHO.
@ANA[DIA]LOG Don’t get me wrong, you absolutely need a subwoofer. In fact, you need two, in stereo configuration. But you need to integrate them correctly, that’s it. Do yourself a huge favor, get yourself a minidsp device with 4 channels out (like a minidsp 2x4 HD or DDRC-24), it’s cheap and easy to configure. It will properly crossover frequencies between your subwoofer and your loudspeakers. You will experience what a good integration is. You can even go for more channels if you want to integrate your super tweeters. As a bonus you can correct your whole system.
@@Maxime-ho9iv thanks for the advice but I truly hate to add more gear and brake the signal I think the degradation will be worse than the separation effects. In any case I may try out of curiosity.
![ANA[DIA]LOG](http://yt3.ggpht.com/50CpmGNilS8aoMlarZVhI_GxRDoZdbj4ZgwCMZXg-Rq2PrEvCytlE6RVyLUrNY-rwE_sAlZ1Zw=s48-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj)
PLEASE MAY I SAY . NO WAFFLE STRAIGHT FROM THE SHOULDER. THIS HAS BEEN THE BEST ADVICE I HAVE READ ,AND I THANK YOU VERY MUCH. HARRY HOLDEN.
I was convinced that you only need 1 subwoofer, so I did a lot of investigating on info of having 2 subs. I decided to order another one same make and model. WOW, adding the 2nd one really improved the overall sound of my system. I WILL NEVER GO BACK TO ONLY 1 SUB.!!!!!
Bravo!!
2- 12” definitive technologies broke one of the sliding glass doors 😮.
This system cost me more than I wanted to spend.
Great video. I am running KEF LS50s with a single REL T5i in a small room and very happy with the result. To make myself even more happier I am looking to buy a second sub. The reason you’d want two subs is not stereo sound, but to get your frequency response as flat as possible. Flat response is almost impossible to achieve with a single sub in a typical room. You will have peaks and dips, meaning that at some frequencies your sub will sound louder and at some - quieter. The differences in loudness between frequencies can be as big +-10-20db, so it is very noticeable.Those peaks and dips depend on the positioning of the sub in the room, so when you have two subs located in opposite sides of the room their frequency graphs will blend together and provide much more natural and balanced bass.
Thanks for explaining that!
I find by having dual subs the integration being a whole lot smoother/easier, it's probably because i have two Rel 8" down-firing T5is positioned behind the couch, which are 6"-8" away from the corners and having them both connected to each individual stereo speaker binding posts (high level input)
The biggest compliment I get is when a guest/friend ask.... "how come you get such a huge sound from at such a small speaker" 😁
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment you 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
I have several pairs of speakers setup in a modest arc in my listening room combined with one subwoofer for one of my systems. I have found toe in tuning of both the speakers and the sub enhances the overall balance of sound. For my surround system I have a separate 15” sub in a corner location and sitting on a large marble tile to aid in dispersion. For testing I have used demo frequency response disk and my favorite bass recording is Leo Lyon’s recording of “Faro” from Ten Years After Stonedhedge. It features several bass guitars together across the soundstage. Enjoy!
I bought a REL 10 years ago, and it sounds the same today. It is paired with my OHM F's. HEAVEN!
OHM A's and F's are fantastic speakers. Heard the A's when they came out in the 70's and the F's later. Tempted to buy a pair, but don't think they would go well we my Khorns.
Really enjoying your videos. The level of details, pace and presentation are really easy to follow and helpful. Keep it coming!
Hey!
I never comment videos on youtube but I'm glad I did it so you changed your mind on subs. Glad you saw the links I sent you too, Paul McGowan is indeed very good at teaching all his knowledge.
So again, I'm really happy you get one and experimented with it, although I have one comment to make (who doesn't?):
You say that you don't need a sub if your speakers go bellow 20hz, and I am not comfortable with that idea. As I told you, and you surely saw it on McGowan's video, a servo sub is not all about low frequencies, but helping the mids too, because it is servo-controlled. If your passive speakers go to let say 18hz, it will not be as good and clean as a 18hz servo-sub (because it is servo-controlled (inertia etc...)). So a sub is not only for low frequencies but for mids as well. It can do wonders on voices for exemple (but I'm sure you have experience it by now).
Apart from that I'm really glad you changed your mind and get one. I have to say I don't own one (just changed my speakers and amp so it has to wait a bit), but I heard what it can do. I continue to watch all you videos and I'm glad someone like you is out there teaching new members of our community.
I'd also be glad to communicate and exchange ideas and experience with you, if you're interested of course. Send me a message and I'll give you my mail, facebook or whatever.
Keep doing what you do, you're doing a great job!
Hi Joseph! Yes, yours and other comments as I said got me thinking. Its the same principle of the supertweeters. Yes, of course, lower frequencies develop the midrange but also a part of the upper frequencies. But that is not a special feature of subs. Even a loudspeaker with good, deep bass, will obviously do the job and even better. Subs are necessary only when your loudspeakers are inefficient in the lower register. Just like supertweeters for the highs.
Good video my man. Thank you! I got myself rel t5i subwoofer and it was the best purchase I made in a long time. The bass was tight and fast comparing to my old $300 subwoofer. Like you said better wait and get the right sub than waste on the cheap one.
I'm sure you were impressed just as much as I was when we first experienced our Rels. If you to purchase another one not only would you find the integration a whole lot smoother/easier but you would finally realise what your room sounds like at its full low-end potential! In fact I was just as impressed as with my first as with the second!!!
wow, this guy is legit. very educational. very good speaker too. i agree on having 2 sub but also have sub lower than speakers. learn alot. thanks....
Excellent approach to describing such a debated topic. Loved it and learned heaps. Thank you
I got the T5i and it was the Best thing I've done. When I've turned the sub off of a night sometimes I forget the next day and put sounds on and it sounds thin, I nearly had a panic attack until I realised 🙃! 😎
one of the perfect video found on internet
My Polk T15 speakers supposedly cover the whole range. Obviously they don’t. I added a Yamaha 8” sub and wow. Now that’s my modest but really full range (for the price point, I mean) hi-fi system, and I’m happy with it (for now) 😉
Good job!!
I have 2 10" Paradigm subwoofers on my system. Where should the phase setting be for running 2 subs? Do I set them both to the same setting?
Yes, otherwise they work one against the other. Clearly before that you must also see if the phase is in contrast with the speakers.
@@anadialog.
thanks for your reply
Great video thanks much , I was just wondering did you get 2 t9i or one thanks again.
One, two is better though!
@@anadialog thanks for the reply, I'm looking to get Rel britannia B2, hopefully one will be enough cheers
My DENON AVR-3808 is powering all TANNOY Revolution R2 and R3 speakers and has dual TANNOY TFX subwoofers connected to the LFE/subwoofer preout of the DENON. Obviously the system is a complete home theatre with decent capabilities of sound reproduction for my music listening at 2 channel stereo. I tried connecting High level input signal to subwoofers and low level RCA, however the best way to do it is through the dedicated LFE/Subwoofer preout as the Audyssey MultEQ-XT calibration does room calibration and gives a good result when matching the time alignment of all the speakers and combines the subwoofers together. Any other way is fine but I find this the best approach for bass management, crossover settings distance and time alignment of all speakers/subwoofers compared to the high or low level input signal I've tried.
Very clear and great content. Super USEFUL! I have not had a two-channel stereo for decades. I recently studied electronics over several months and so built a Valve Amplifier. This was quite a challenge. Your channel has been EXTREMELY useful for me to understand the other components involved in HiFi set up. THANK YOU!
Thank YOU so much!
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment you 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
the subs I have are dual 18inch and they are not for home tbh aka PA dual sub I got to get some speakers that are made for homes and shelves tbh @@anadialog
Another point to consider on wether or not, is what size speakers your system has, my system is made up of bookshelf speakers that simply dont have the bass capacity of say a tower speaker, so my sub compliments the smallet bookshelf speaker. Very informitive video by the way.
True, thanks for pointing that out!
This really helped me a lot. You told this in plain language a novice like me can understand. Thank you.
Great video!!! I have the B&W ASW608 sub I just purchased. I have a Denon 9.2
receiver. Do I connect both "line out" cables to the receiver, or just
one? Sorry, new to being an audiophile. I have a B&W 9.1 setup going
(2 atmos speakers included) (no amp, just receiver)
You covered all the basis here
I have used both Rel and Vandersteen both hook up to the amplifier and I have owned both. My current Vandersteen speakers have subs built in. Good advise here, keep it coming.
Thanks sid!
I find by having dual subs the integration being a whole lot smoother/easier, it's probably because i have two Rel 8" down-firing T5is positioned behind the couch, which are 6"-8" away from the corners and having them both connected to each individual stereo speaker binding posts (high level input)
The biggest compliment I get is when a guest/friend ask.... "how come you get such a huge sound from at such a small speaker" 😁
Little subtle satisfactions in life! ;-)
Hello. Kef KC62 vs Rel T7i comparison? Thanks. My speaker Xavian Perla Esclusiva + HegelH90 Briliant middle and hight frequency but low under 53 Hz not so much. I glad upgrade for this. Very educational video.
Kef for the Kefs!
Rels with almost anything!
Great video and really well explained. That's been a massive help. Many thanks
Wow...got this question...what do you think of a sub that goes down to 50hz? I got a Monoprice sub with an 8 inch drive and it says it goes down to 50hz. That's kind of weak isn''t. I got a pair of Sony SSCS5, and I'm waiting for the cables to come so I can hook everything up.
Yes, I would skip that. If you have to go through the effort, expense and setup I would at least go down to 25Hz. 20Hz clearly is best.
@@anadialog In other words, return the item is that right? So me being on a fixed income, maybe save for a few more months and get either a REL if I can find one for about $400 or $500, or a SVS...or maybe wait for one to go on sale?
Excellent overview of setting sub phasing and crossover and in what order..thanks!
Would you recommend to use Bluetooth connections on subs ?
Thank you,
I wouldn't. Technology is still behind there. Not all frequencies are delivered plus there is a digital conversion and slight delay.
You’ll need to get in touch with REL with regards to the crossover. They will tell you that you’ll need to overlap by 6-8hz and not go under and create a frequency hole. This is for seamless integration and to improve the midrange. If you are referring to John hunters video in upscale audio, REL will explain that further.
Yes, I do see a lot of people suggest that, and others say not to do that. The best, as I said, is to bump each other 40hz sub with 40hz speakers (for example). Since it's difficult I think it's better not to overlap, but again, you are right. a lot of people think overlapping is better. I the end, the best thing is to try all three possibilities and pick the one that sounds more natural!
@@anadialog
Overlapping is always better idea.
Every classic speaker lost some dB at the edge of its range.
So you may have lets say 40 Hz but with effectiveness of minus 3 or even 6 dB. When you set you sub exactly at 40 Hz then you may hear frequences between 55 to 40 Hz (for intance) as a 'hole in sound'. Thats why overlapping is good idea.
Question : If you have an AV amp with LFE pre out sub connected (5.1) and want to connect it for 2channel stereo as well via the speaker terminals.., is that possible ?
Ciao Guido, con la connessione di potenza devo comunque tenere acceso il subwoofer giusto? Grazie
Si, sono comunque sempre casse attive!
Hi, really helpful video. Any recommendations for a sub for Yamaha NS10’s? Am using them as main reference speakers in home studio. But they are lacking in low end. Many thanks in advance👍🏾😄
I have a friend who is telling me to get one good single down firing ported subwoofer (I have real oak hardwoods) says if I get a second one it will add complications with cancellations in parts of my room. Is that not true and I would be better with two subs? I don't notice any dead spots in my room. 18'L x 14'W x 12'H Oak floor Vaulted ceiling, open archway to another large room. I have a 5.1.2 Atmos (heights) setup with SVS Prime Towers and Satellites . My sub is a single Klipsch R10sw 300w.
REL seems a bit pricy, was looking at SVS SB2000, SB3000, PB2000. Advice?
Two subs are always butter but at that point, if expensive, consider upgrading your speakers. No you shouldn't have any phase problems if you choose subs with phase selection.
Do the Epic CL 3 Klipsch need a subwoofer? I inherited a 10” KEF PSW 2150 powered subwoofer. Not sure if I needed. Thanks and great video by the way.
Look at the frequency response, if it stops way above 20Khz, like 50Hz or 60Hz, I think it is a good idea.
Nice im enjoying my first sub Focal cub 3. And another point get a soundcard that has bass management and room correction you can change the +/-db, crossover in realtime you can sync easily the sub and loud speaker.
Cool!
Hi, when we set main stereo speakers as per secret speaker placement you know. The soundstage space is the area/ in line which sub sounds best,and slitely less on crossover frequency spectrum and high on volume to match main speakers.
I build my own subwoofer with a 1000 watts Sunfire 10" driver and a Skar Audio enclosure, with such power, then my problem is rattling noises all over the house, I am trying to decouple the subwoofer from the carpet, I will try to do that with pool noodles as my starting point, worst scenario is to get those fancy isolators from SVS. Thank you for sharing all this information.
Way to go!
REL Connection; I have REL also and studied about that connection subject. Connection should be .1/LFE + High level input. Please do not forget High level connection to amp's speakers outputs are power not only signal. Mean front left right are passive tower speakers. To sencronise their phase and sub REL solved it very well but you should connect High Level also. Last point DO NOT connect High level and Low level inputs at the same time , you can harm your "not cheap" REL. Thanks all your info.
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment your 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
Love your videos, thanks again.
I have the 2020 model ATC 40's with 2x SVS sb2000 subs so similar to you. I absolutely love my music sessions, I'm very lucky to own my HiFi. (powered by Michi P5/S5).
Thanks for a well thought out video! However, what if your sub has no hi level inputs? I am using a vintage marantz receiver with no sub out. Most subs today have only low level inputs, svs, klipsch etc. I have restricted myself to shopping for subs with high level inputs and as a result I am concerned that I will not get the best deal or the best sub. Thank you
True. Each model will follow it's best type of connection. The high level is just good because there is no latency.
Get rid of the sub it was designed for just home theater...If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment your 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy 2 with high level inputs and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
You should look at what the response drop off is on your loud speaker. Most loud speakers have serious drop off under 80hz
i was thinking the bic f12 was a good budget option, now considering the yamaha as well. I also have heard good things about the svs subs
adam withers I have the bic f 12 for a 2.1 setup and I think it’s fine for most applications - not perfect but once you get it dialed in, I think you’ll be happy
what happen if u have an 3 channel amp on a stereo setup?? can i hook up or use that third empty channel for the sub in a passive way?? does the volume knob will work?
Is that output? Is it home theater? No clear, explain better please...
No
Hi, Love the video. I accidentally sampled your voice on my kaossilator. Wondering if I could keep it as it sounds good. Talking about speakers for about 5 seconds.
😆sure!
REL used to be built in a little factory in South Wales. I used to deliver there. Nice guy.
Cool!
I bought a rel back when they were new. I blew the amp years after the warranty expired. Fixed it for free anyway didn't even have to pay shipping. Just told me to take it back to the store I bought it from. That's when Richard Lord (the R and L) was still there.
Guido, another great video- love your content. OK, you are dead on with point Number 6. Swapping the body position with subwoofer for maximum sound using ears as guide is - spot on. Keep up the GREAT fun work. (BTW, I purchased a cheap subwoofer- I know, I am sorry, for my ol 1971 Bang and Oulfsen Beovox 2650's and even on the cheap it was the best bang for the buck for my antiquated NAD 300 watt amp.)
New subscriber. Very informative. Right to the point. Love that ty
I have an 8 inch H&K but I'm going to get a 12 ..But i really want stereo 12's .. there are a lot of pad sounds especially in ambient music where the bass is in stereo
Thanks that was really helpful and I’m now trying it for sub
Great vid. Should I set my crossover on my route speaker on Crown amplifier or both?
Speaker!
Hello , I love your show. What about an amplifier that is able to turn off the base to the main two speakers and just allow the Bass to go to the subwoofer, is that a good idea .should Bass be left on the main speakers and the sub woofer at the same time. My amp is able to turn the low frequency off to the main two speakers and go to subwoofer only. Or should the base be left on and the sub at the same time
Yes, probably using a crossover. If your sub has a good frequency extension and overlaps the midrange of the speakers then, sure, you can use your sub only. Obviously do a test, your ears are the beat judge.
Very informative. Nice video.
Thanks!
I have Amphion Impact 400 subwoofer and white Amphion Ion L speakers.
The placement of the subwoofer is not optimal because I hear some boom with certain music, but that cannot currently be helped. I still think they are better combo than my ears deserve but hey, why buy mediocre stuff if you get good gear used 😄
One thing of note about subwoofer placement is that if you live in building where houses are next to each other, basing it to the floor might have annoying consequences to your neighbors.
Excellent video Sir!
As an adjunct to your thoughts...
I use a single REL SHO-5 with my system and have recently moved to a large home in Washington from a townhome in California. I have not had the opportunity to unpack my sub yet. I've also been moving my system around the main room and finally found the best room placement for the "whole" system... Part of the change was also going from a concrete foundation in CA to a wooden elevated foundation in WA.
Other issues include cathedral ceilings (16 ft) and these new combined rooms (Living room, kitchen and non-formal dining area all together) present BIG challenges for us audiophiles to tackle (reverb, echo, huge space to fill with sound, delayed rear reflections, smearing, large windows, hard surfaces everywhere, flexible wood foundation/flooring).
So, long story short... I'm getting closer to finishing my system, but noticed immediately that the life/fullness of the music has diminished greatly without my sub in the system! It's one of those things that once you experience it, you just can't be satisfied with less.
So, that is one of my weekend projects. To get the life back in my music.
On another note, I found that moving my system to a different wall greatly improved the system resistance to the echo and reverb (probably because the rear boundary is now not just a flat wall and I am now parallel with the cathedral ceiling and equidistant from the side walls. It is tough to place a system in a weirdly proportioned room! I had to take over the non-formal dining area for my right speaker... (yes, Bachelor. But would give it up for the right woman! Hahaha... only the right speaker area of course!). Also, buying area rugs throughout and will look into sound absorption to tame reverb/echoes.
[I have a nice system consisting of Focal 1038BE II Main speakers (Very good, but I want better someday), REL SHO-5 sub x 1( Excellent, and I can't afford 2 yet.) Primaluna Dailogue HP Integrated Amp (Beautiful and powerful sound...) with PS Audio DirectStream DAC (Wonderful!!) and CD Player (Amazing) and Phono PreAmp (very good). Blusound Node 2i streamer (great for the money). I also have an Oracle Audio Origins Turn Table (good sound, but clunky ergonomics of usage and very susceptible to outside vibration) and SoundSmith cartridge (Amazing!!).All cabling is DH Labs (Excellent value proposition... 30%the cost for 95%the performance.!) Cables DO make a huge difference!! I did A/B/C comparisons with my system above and it was immediate and HUGE!! Tested Streetwires (car audio- my beginnings are High end Car Audio) 12g OFC Ultra Speaker Cable (Very good basic cable, Bulk=$500 for 250ft.) vs Nordost Heimdall 2 (Excellent silver plated lower high range cable, $2400 for 3 meter pair) vs DH Labs Q-10 Signature (Excellent Long grained Copper Silver plated cables within excellent value proposition! $850 for a 3 meter pair) The Nordost was night and day to the Streetwires and better than the DH Labs, but not by much! Differences included definition, clarity, presence, soundstage, Frequency response (slight upper frequency roll-off with the Streetwires. None for the others (due to the better conductor material my guess).
Yes, Silver conductors make significant differences. Try Stinger 9000 series car audio Interconnects (
@Brian Shoemaker Hi there! Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this. Sorry for my late asnwer. I just can say...what a fabulous system you have there! Truly amazing! I haven't decalred this yet on the channel but I got your same amp and it is truly outstanding. I would love to put my hands on those PS audio streamers...wow! Considering your question and your gear, maybe the loudspeakers could be upgraded...but seriously, both Focal and Oracle audio TT are excellent pieaces of gear. Let me know if you change your speakers...I am going to do that in the future...
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment your 2 main speakers. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed. I never go higher than 8'' on the sub (less cone mass = faster more articulate bass) Larger tend to be boomy but provide impact in spades. If theater impact is the goal then by all means get an 18'' sub. If sound quality and articulation and resolution are the goal...two 8 '' subs running in stereo sharing connection with the two main speakers. Remember dial in your sub's...They should never draw attention to themselves, ever. It should always sound like your mains are making all that bass.
Fairly certain GR Research DIY cables will outperform most all the cables you listed (I have not heard them all) GR Research cost a fraction of what you paid.
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment you 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
I wish they had these subwoofers back in the 1980's! I bought an inexpensive downfiring Acoustic Audio PSW-10 subwoofer and what a difference it made matched with my old B&W DM11's. Changed my world! Picking a subwoofer is totally subjective. I like to feel it so I picked a down firing subwoofer. You gave some good advice thanks for sharing :)
Thanks Kenny!
Great video! I own a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP integrated tube amp (and from what I've seen I am pretty sure you have the same model) and I was wondering what kind of connnection you've used (my amp has a dedicated mono output). Thanks and greetings from Italy ;)
Yes, great amp! I am using the speaker outputs. If you have the possibility, the high level connection like REL is the best IMO.
@@anadialog even my girlfriend, Who she's the "I don't give a fuck about HI Fi but I have Bionic ear" type of girl felt in love with It ;)
😄👍
Nice video sir I've learned a lot.from ur video .god bless
I have a dual monoblock class ab amp 300 watts 4ohm per channel driving my LR peerless 10” XLS sub in sealed
Boxes super tight bass. My other 2 monoblock driving my 2.5 way all active using behringer active crossover superb system great soundstage
I’m looking forward to seeing your video again when I get one. May be awhile, great help for me again.
Thanks Allen!
@@anadialog what should my subs crossover be
It depends from your subwoofer. You should set the crossover at your speakers lowest frequency or, test both, slightly lower than that in order to avoid a juxtaposition.
@@anadialog ok, thanks friend!
Excellent presentation! One think that’s a little bit tricky, is the corner positioning that you firstly propose..it raises by some db some frequencies of the sub’s spectrum, leading to some unwanted frequency boosting. I think that, in another video you must add a review for enhancing that low end frequency (or the whole) spectrum using a room analyzer!
Wow.. Awesome explanation!! Everything covered regarding setting up sub..
Have 1 question though currently have a sub taga harmony tsw 120 v2 which is on reverse phase, crossover at 35hz.. The thing is the volume only goes till about 20% of and if I put anything higher the sub cuts off and the power light starts blinking.. Any idea what could be the issue? Thanks for your time
It seems that it is somehow overpowered. How is it connected?
@@anadialog sub pre out on my yamaha avr htr 3067 via 1 male RAC x 2 male RAC on low input points in sub
@@MrAnkitmanchanda maybe the connection is the problem. Use the single sub output on your amp, as you are doing, and connect it to the single sub input, that is using a SINGLE RCA interconnect. Don't use the L and R inputs with the single sub output! In any case, since you have a high input connection, as I said in the video, you should be using those. Just connect each pair to each pair on the amplifier or to your speakers.
@@anadialog Apologies got the model no. of my sub wrong its SW-10 ver. 2.. and the Sub does not have single sub input.. it has 2 male RCA Low Input and only High Level Inputs hence had connected to L & R Inputs.. anyways I have ordered for a new Single input RCA cable and see how it performs..
Also, if result is the same then you think i should try and connect my sub on the High Level Inputs via Front L and R speakers and not use the Sub preout at all? Will this help?
@@MrAnkitmanchanda try the high level inputs connecting them to the amp and see what happens.
If when I turn on my old and trusty REL Stentor, the sound gets 10 over ten, what would happen if I also did use supertweeters?
The best positioning was the least expected, far from corners and in the middle of the right sidewall. Shocking.
Interesting! Congrats for achieving that...not that simple actually!
@@anadialog more than twenty five years and a little of luck. You know that God is in the nuances 😉
@@salvadorrodenas3071 true!
On my desktop system, I keep my sub underneath the desk.
I found that I needed to tilt the sub upwards. I looked at guitar amplifier stands that offers a safe and stabile way to tilt the sub so my ankles don’t feel the rumble.
By doing this, the soundstage raises and I feel the bass at my chest and belly areas.
Great video again ! 🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪
Thanks Peter!
Are you still using a dedicated subwoofer with your new Golden ear?
Nope! Gone!
@@anadialog that's what I figured. I have an older design from Sandy Gross from about 12 years ago. Definitely technology BP7002. I wonder how they would hold up. I imagine the high frequency to be smoother with the ribbon tweeters. Hmmmmm
Great video.
I have one question, i haven a pair of B&W 602 s2 speakers will they pair with a Focal SW700 subwoofer? Worth make this addition to my hifi system. Also i have an Yamaha s501 integrated amplifier. Thank you in advance.
Hi there, yes I think they would. If you can, try looking for a model that goes even more deep. The Focal stops at 36Hz, surely a great improvement from the 70Hz of the B&W.
@@anadialog my budget is limited. I am looking for max 300 dollar's. Any suggestions at this price that would be better than focal?
Thank you
SPL-120 works 💪!!! I've 3 (2 stereo connected and one LFE)
Informative video. Thanks for posting it. You cover many good points that I hope your subscribers will find informative. My rig is from the early 1970s, including speakers. The sound is very good, but it was always missing a solid bottom end foundation that my vintage speakers could not deliver. Today's listeners might think I mean boom box type of bottom end, but I do not mean that at all. Steve Guttenberg's video was the first to change my mind about using a sub in a stereo system.
After much research and help from John Hunter, Lead Designer and Owner of REL, I purchased a REL T/5i. John's input was absolutely instrumental in making the correct purchase for my system. The REL T/5i fits nicely into my vintage eco sound system and helps complete the total image of the soundscape.
This was a good buy. Hands down. It adds the missing bottom end that my vintage speakers could not supply. The sound now exceeds my ears' expectations. It is more alive than I ever would have thought.
Thanks again!
Cool! Thank you for sharing!
The best loudspeaker/s “systems” have ALWAYS been separates! Separates, ie. subwoofers have always offered “almost infinite” tuning options. So for example, “bookshelf (package)”speakers have been a myth of epic proportions! The example, within the example is the “loss” of sound stage, etc., when placed on the “bookshelves.” The myth has been perpetuated even to this day (2022). However, some to many audiophiles can’t even define sound stage to miss it, to really care.
If sound quality is the goal, avoid RCA inputs like the plague. He is right on 1 point. High level input is the best, he just only partially understands why. 2 subwoofers running in stereo quite literally image as much as any 2 full range speakers. Wired directly to your main amplifiers outputs sharing that connection with the 2 main speakers. The magic happens when both sub's and the 2 main speakers work together to present the soundscape. Imaging together with stereo sub's is the only way to truly compliment you 2 main speakers. That simple. Now go buy another REL and pay attention to imaging...you will be amazed.
Great video ! Thanks !
Thank YOU!
I told ya bro!!! Once you go sub ya never go back!! Everyone needs multiple subs, no matter what your setup.
I cannot emphasize how important it is to have more than one sub. Either 2 or 4. This will help “pressurize” the room and minimize any nulls.
Rock on and keep up the awesome vids.!!
True! Thanks!
I put my sub underneath my desk. Then, I stuff the surrounding cavity with pillows and thick sheets of pink 2 feet by 2 feet insulation . Also, weighted down the sub with a bag of aquarium gravel. My desktop doesn’t rumble and my tubes feel practically vibration free.
Also, I use an iso-acoustics speaker stand that helps raise the sound. The floor no longer becomes a sound factor.
I actually use metallic bubblewrap that has a slight bend to them. I tape that sheet where the bass waves will reflect upwards.
I have a room size of 15*16 ft and I’m confused between selecting
1. Focal Chora 826 (latest) or Focal Aria 946
2. AVR Denon 3700H vs 4700H
3. 2 SVS SB 1000 Pro or 1 SVS SB 2000
Kindly let me know your thoughts.
Very interesting vid. I've heard or read somewhere that it is possible to damage your main power amp when connecting the black wire
from a REL to a negative connection on your amp. Is this true? Do I even need to connect the black wire? I assume it's an earth connection to
reduce hum. I'm using a Meridian power amp and Focal aria 936's
I haven't heard about this but If Rel recommends it I am afraid that maybe people got their connections mixed.
I have two Rels hooked-up to each individual speaker binding posts and I've experimented with using black wire and non-black wire being hooked-up!
All safe and sound!
so may i please inquire how to CHOOOOSE a subwoofer .
Are you referring to a spelling mistake or something like that? It is true that I am Italian and make a lot of mistakes but the word Choose is spelt correctly...or am I missing something?
Very helpful
Thanks John!
I agreed with you that the sound of a sub is not directional until i hooked them up in sterio. If you don"t beleve me put one on the left and one on the right and play Ringo"s drum solow on Abby Road. I AM NOT SWICHING MY SUBS BACK.
I believe you! In fact I said that this idea is changing now, and that is why!Two subs are ideal!
This is a subject that is often confused.
Low frequencies being omnidirectional doesn’t mean you can’t localize them. Stars emit light in all directions and you can still localize them.
Although it is true we can’t really localize very low frequencies (which again is a different topic than the fact that they are omnidirectional), you can start to localize them when your subwoofer reproduce the not-so-low frequencies. No crossover cut frequencies abruptly so it happens in all systems.
And by the way, stereo subwoofers is the way to go, for multiple different reasons (it tends to correct for mode issues in your room, it lower distortion because you play your subwoofers lower, it improves the sense of space thanks to cues and reverberations being the information contained in those low frequencies, etc. etc.), so keep your dual subwoofers!
Make sure you have them correctly integrated in stereo and with a proper dsp.
Doesn't the receiver handle lag ? What else is the Sub pre-out for ?
Maybe a dedicated home theater amp could but not a normal stereo amp, which os design for music. When you don't have any other connection solutions like in the past you use the subwoofer rca output.
Sub woofer output to splitter then splitter to cd channel on amp2. Hook up 4 car subs on speakers A and B left and right. I did that to my 7.1 and now it has 4 subs but all hetting the same signal. Each sub is in each corner of the room.
nice lesson.
I enjoyed your video but is it possible you are over thinking this subwoofer aspect. thanks.
Grazie per il video molto esplicativo, ma ancora non riesco a settare nel modo giusto il livello del crossover. Le caratteristiche delle mi casse Elac dbr62, sono queste: frequency response 44hz-35000hz, 2 way bass reflex,impedance 6ohms, crossover frequency: 2200hz, sensitivity 86db@ 2.83v/1m.
Io ho settato attualmente il crossover sui 75hz, ma non sono sicuro e non sono convinto del suono degli speakers. Forse tu potresti aiutarmi a trovare il giusto valore del crossover? Ti ringrazio in anticipo per la tua collaborazione.
L’unico vero modo per avere una sinergia perfetta purtroppo è quello di usare un DSP…ma ci possiamo accontentare. L’unico consiglio che posso dare è testare più frequenze e se possibile cambiare posizione nella stanza del sub
@@anadialog grazie per l'attenzione, molto gentile.
very informative! I learn a lot. thank you.
I got a M&K MX 350, M&K says they invented the sub satellite system. It's a 12" Push pull config. Speed & attack are why I like Sealed subs like this used SVS SB1000 I found.
Another one bites the dust for good bass
Getting 2 rel t5i tomorrow to go with my 25 year old linn aktiv speaker amp setup, as it's in different room now and is lacking a little bass compared to before and I refuse to part with my setup and may get the hiquphon upgraded tweeter for my speaker next! BTW love your channel
Great! Tell us how is the final result!
@@anadialog I will thanks, Jim.
@@anadialog OK I'm loving them so far very easy to set up connected them high level off the speaker outs spent around an hr fine tuning the crossover and level now they are sounding more like the flagship model that linn did at the time the keltic! Mine are the kieldh, Just ordered the hiquphon tweeter upgrade for them can't wait. Jim. edit. more tweaking and wow just played leftfield * leftism 2nd track omg my babies are back! AND BETTER THAN BEFORE SEAMLESS!
@@bat2137 my Rels would like to thank you for the Afro left track!
15 minute edit later:
'Song of life' WOW! I'll probably be back again so bollocks to this... the whole album going to my playlist!
All this sub talk is making me want a chicken cutlets sub with parmesan cheese!!!! lol . Nice video brother!!!
Thanks Carmine!
you think like i do, great honest advice
Thank you! Awesome! I am considering the RSL Speedwoofer 10s. Seems it goes pretty low and well rated. Please advise.... Also I have a similar tile floor to yours in front of my small fireplace (unused and painted). I could put a subwoofer on anywhere in front, might it be good inside the fireplace? Love the blue gummy stuff idea! Thank you very much!!!
Seems very nice (looking at the specs and reviews), I haven't heard them, and an excellent price tag. If you decide to get it give us some feedback.
The fireplace position will give some issues. It will dramatically increase the booming effect and it might echo in there. Try, but I am afraid that you are going to need to put some foam or some absorbent material for a more dry response.
is it really needed, to run two subs? I m owning a velodyne, a very good sub. But i cannot find another one, and those who were offered on Ebay are defective. So maybe it is a stupid question, but is it possible to use just one?
Of course you can use just one! Actually, most people use just one. We just have to remember that the optimal layout is with two subs, a stereophonic layout.
@@anadialog thats what ive expected. The Stereo Sound will not fullfill the whole range
I just have a question for anyone really.. I am using the Elac B6.2 bookshelf speakers. The speaker specs claim they are 44hz on the low end.. What crossover frequency setting should I use on a subwoofer?
Some would say 44 others slightly below that...try both and decide which sounds better!
amazing video, very well explained
good stuff
Thanks
Some good info, thanks
Last time I listened to this guy I ended up buying a Luxman L10
I have a few subs but given up. Can't manage to tune them
I know...its a nightmare...insist or sell them and wait for a good pair of speakers!
I have Casta B horns fair bass , need more balance and frequency range
Hehe.. allora... I am really proud of my Speakers! They have the 12inch Subwoofer integrated, and these Subs are fully powered by one channel of my Poweramps. The left Channel, for example, powers the Bass, Midrange and Tweeter of my speaker, and the right channel feeds the integrated Subwoofer. And, in the second Loudspeakerbox, it goes the same way! There is an exact equal Poweramp that feeds the integrated Sub, and the second channel of this poweramp feeds the Bass, Midrange, and the Tweeter of this second Loudspeakerbox!
This is called vertical Biamping, and this way i don`t need an active extra Subwoofer lurking around in my living Room. Only the Refrigrator-sized Loudspeaker, named as JBL 4341 Clones, need a quarter of my living-space in my flat lol....
And these 4341es have bass! lol. Deep as a black hole!
So, what do i want to say: A passive Sub is also a proper solution! But in case of a passive Sub, you must go Bi-Amping! Then you have no Phase -Problems, and also no Power-Problems... ;-) (as long as the Poweramps have enough "Uhmpfff" lol....
Lucky you! Well, yes if you bi-amp, no problem but then...its like having an active subwoofer with its amp detached!
@@anadialog Thats exactly what it is! The only challenge i had, was the design of the X-Overs. So i ended up with a Low-Pass for the Subs that roll of at ~500Hz, and for the Bass/midrange/Tweeter Section, i finalized it with a 3Way Divider with 1950Hz and 9150Hz Crossing Points.
It took a while to figure out what i needed, but at last the Thing works how i wanted it to work. ....
And to bring it to a Conclusion: A proper Subwoofer is a good thing for reproduction of Music! Or better said: Two of them! And, if one doesnt want to BiAmp, then it`s the Best to use an active Sub. Only if you have the possibility to build your Speakers by yourselve, you can go a more creative way than to buy every single Piece of your sound system.
@@anadialog But, all that said, for All that have not the possibility or/and ability to build their own Devices, it is highly recommended to follow this Video here. A proper Bookshelf Speaker, if it is worth and Sounds good, can be completed with an active Subwoofer. And two of them is always better. OK, we cannot really hear from where the low Frequencies are coming, but: We don`t listen only with our ears! Wa also listen with our Body. And so we can feel the Stage and the Imaging that 2 Subs add to the Main-Speakers. Its about Soundpressure, that we can feel with our Body, and the "Uhmpff" they deliver to the Stage in combine (to repeat myselve lol).
The Case i prefer built in Subs is just, because i don`t like too many cables lurking around. I have cables enough due to my too many Turntables lol... (i must reduce the Number of TT`s down to 3... More is not convienient anymore), And if i can avoid the two Powercables that go to my external subs, i am satisfied.
But, maybe, some day i build something like the AN3, the Speakers Paul Mcgowan showed us on his "Ask Paul" channel. OK, the Subs there will not be servocontrolled, because i don`t have the Knowledge howto design such an Amplifier, but - in my "AN3" like Speakers, i will build in a fixed D-Class Amp to power the subs, so that i can use a pretty little Tubeamp with about 30Watts x2 to feed the Rest of the speaker.
And, to train a little bit my practise, i will build a Turntable with an integrated Tube-Preamp, and maybe i will build a Pair of 2Way Active Speakers - or maybe i integrate the Poweramp into the Turntable also, side by side with the Tube Phonostage. The Base TT will be a good and Pretty NOS Lenco L-236, that will get a very big and heavy Plinth, to have space enough for all the stuff ;-).
But before i do this, i must learn how to produce a proper TH-cam Video, so i can show the progress of the building process. Maybe i can inspire the one or other here in our Community of Followers of the very informative Anadialog Channel!
@@bernhardmichaelfux308 Amen! I completely support your statement that we listen also with our body...the rest of the project looks and will most probably sound good...good luck!
"use a slave". Hahahahaha great video.
There’s one thing you got wrong here which is the way to integrate the sub.
2 things. First, high level input is not the way to go because you basically add together the distortion of your amp and the one from the subwoofer amp.
Second, and this is a very very important point, the frequencies you give to your subwoofer, you want to remove them from your main loudspeakers.
There is no way you can achieve that by just changing some crossover point on your sub, it is only changing the frequencies your subwoofer will play, it doesn’t change anything to what is played by your main loudspeakers. If your loudspeakers are anything decent they will produce sound in the 50 Hz region and even if you set your subwoofer to the lowest crossover point, those frequencies will be boosted (crossover are usually -12dB per octave so even if you set your crossover to 30Hz there’s still ton of energy at 50Hz, or even higher). This 40-100Hz boost, because played by the subwoofer AND your loudspeakers, can be very pleasant to your ears but it’s not high fidelity at all.
There is no way around having a device that will actually precisely send low frequencies to your subwoofer and higher frequencies to your main loudspeakers.
The usual route to do so is using a minidsp device that goes before both your loudspeakers/amp and your subwoofer(s).
It can’t be done at the subwoofer level, except if you can connect your main loudspeakers to the subwoofer (which then actually act as a dip device).
Hi there, well you are describing intrinsic subwoofer problems not mistakes. Its a matter of choices of the lesser evil. High level may add distortion, it depends, it is not necessary automatic and/or not necessarily very strong, but at least the timing is perfect and BTW recommended by REL itself so I kind of tend to follow their suggestions. Same problem for the second issue. Its something you must deal with with all subs as I do with my super tweeters and that is also why I was reticent to install these. In any case I prefer to have a full range with some crossingover that the mere frequency range of my speakers. It is obvious that the best way to go is always going to be to have these all integrated within the loudspeakers themselves.
@ANA[DIA]LOG You didn’t get my point. You will always need a crossover, in all cases, the point is not that having a crossover is bad.
The issue is that currently you only have a crossover at your subwoofer, your main loudspeakers receive the full signal. It’s the worse situation, it’s not a matter of the lesser evil.
Your loudspeakers will play sounds 30-40Hz (at -12dB) to let’s say 16-20kHz. That’s the frequency range of your loudspeakers.
Since a crossover is usually -12dB / octave, it means that when you setup the crossover of your subwoofer to the lowest point, 30Hz, it will still play sound at 63Hz at -12dB (this is 1 octave higher than 30Hz).
You still are playing sounds from 30-40Hz to 63Hz basically 2 times, from your subwoofer and from your loudspeakers.
This is at the lowest crossover setting. Since your subwoofer go to 28Hz the lowest (that’s their specs, at -6dB), setting the crossover to 30Hz would be odd because it’s lower than what your subwoofer can produce at 0dB, meaning most people will use a higher setting, which make the situation even worse because now even more frequencies are played both by your subwoofer and your loudspeakers.
The issue here is not the crossover on your subwoofer, the issue here is that you don’t have the opposite crossover on your loudspeakers.
Again, the only way to do that is to have a crossover than not only filter (i.e. remove) high frequencies that go to your subwoofer but also filter low frequencies from your loudspeakers.
This is exactly the same logic for a super tweeter, only in reverse. If you add a super tweeter to your loudspeakers without removing the frequencies that go to your super tweeter from your loudspeakers it will be atrocious. Again, some high frequencies will be played 2 times and thus boosted.
It’s very hard to tune this by ears except if you really know what a transparent system should be, because our ears love more bass and love more highs, so you will have a tendency to be pleased by those boosts.
As for the high level input, it doesn’t correct for timing in itself, because timing depends on the placement of your subwoofer, not on the fact that your subwoofer is connected the same way your loudspeakers are. It’s all pure and simple logic, you can do the thinking on your own, I’m no REL I have nothing to sell (by the way the argument of REL for high level input is not really timing, it’s that your subwoofer will receive the same « coloration » from your system.. well.. this is another discussion..). If your loudspeakers are 2m from you and your subwoofer is 3m from you, there is no way they will be on the same timing, even if your subwoofer is connected via high level input. Your ears will have receive the signal later, period. The only way to correct for this is to add delay, on one side or the other depending on the placement of your subwoofer and your loudspeakers.
You have a science approach to what we do, which is good, this is science.
@@Maxime-ho9iv yes, I do understand and I was underlining the fact that you must decide for the lesser evil: keep a sub and deal with these intrinsic issues or get rid of it and loose some low-end. In fact you confirmed my super tweeter concern. You need to decide what is more important for you or actually what sounds best to your ears. Numbers come always after IMHO.
@ANA[DIA]LOG Don’t get me wrong, you absolutely need a subwoofer. In fact, you need two, in stereo configuration.
But you need to integrate them correctly, that’s it.
Do yourself a huge favor, get yourself a minidsp device with 4 channels out (like a minidsp 2x4 HD or DDRC-24), it’s cheap and easy to configure. It will properly crossover frequencies between your subwoofer and your loudspeakers. You will experience what a good integration is. You can even go for more channels if you want to integrate your super tweeters. As a bonus you can correct your whole system.
@@Maxime-ho9iv thanks for the advice but I truly hate to add more gear and brake the signal I think the degradation will be worse than the separation effects. In any case I may try out of curiosity.