I told you this in Facebook this is by far one of the very best Hi-Fi information and enlightenment TH-cam channels available, congratulations! this is how it should be not only vulgar salesmen disguised as reviewers trying to push says through videos
The first words in this are amazing, Ive watched 24 seconds and had to comment. I've had many arguments with supposed 'teachers' on TH-cam who keep claiming they are going to tell people the 'secret' of this or that about music. I am a luthier and teach guitar, the idea of things within the musical world being 'secrets' is disgraceful, There are no secrets, just things you don't understand yet. Seriously, Thank you.
I stumbled across this set of videos (13/4/2024), and I'm glad I did. There's no ridiculous attempt to be "cool" or wacky. The presenter just gives details and facts (as far as they can be given). Very informative. Very good.✅️
"I'll be back" worst Arnold Schwarzenegger impression I have ever heard! Seriously, however great video and helpful graphics. My problem is I have open doorways on my side walls which create unique problems for reflection. Your advice of "listening and experimenting" is, of course, the answer. Your videos always brighten up my Saturday mornings (in Australia).
Uncle Hans coming with the easy to understand instructions...this man is an Americ...(er)...A Dutch treasure!!!! By the way, you need to have a live show one day...we need to know about the man behind this after all these years!!!
With my Golden Ear Triton 3+ proper toe-in was critical. I used a laser range finder from speaker to listening position to adjust distance and angle of the speakers. I was rewarded with a wide deep stereo image and smooth frequency response.
Brilliant information, and much appreciated. I just happen to battling the fine tuning of my speakers for best soundstage. This information will be valuable to me. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Wow, just discovered the channel and am excited to have such great content to watch. I have been a speaker "nut" for many years and have forgotten probably more than I remember and look forward to brushing up on things with your channels content. Thank You Hans!
Bang on with regards to GoldenEar. When I first got a pair of Triton 2+ I played with the toe in for about a month, adding toe in an inch or two at a time. I found the sound was really locked to the speakers, with some but imaging but nothing to write home about. When I finally got the speakers directly on axis with my mlp they just disappeared! I think I've had them for 5+ years now and their ability to place sound everywhere still blow my mind.
As always, very informative. I still consider myself a newb and am always taken back at how complex a sterio, something so seemingly simple, can be. I always have music on. Always. I never really gave much thought to how much it changes with even small changes to the source. The placement. The room. And on and on.
Best advice ever!. Read the user manual and start where they recommend. Tannoy recommend toeing their duel concentric speakers so that they cross in front of the listener. I thought that was odd and would never of thought to try that position if they hadn't of mentioned it After trying it they were right and that's where there staying.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I believe that it works because the speakers single point source horn design. The tone doesn't change on or off axis. However the volume does change. They play louder when pointing directly at you. So as you move your head to one side, the closer speaker is more off axis and sounds quieter and the one further away now plays louder. This effect balances the sound and gives a larger sweet spot to sit in. It also reduces room reflections and creates a deeper sound stage.
@@henrym78 l have a pair of Canterbury' SE. Driven by a KR Audio VA880. My room is 5m x 5m . A square room s a nightmare but the Tannoy's design reduce most of the issues to a level where room treatments can fix them
@@stephens2r338 I also have a square room, 4.7x4.7m (4.3m ceiling)! I use the Tannoy system 8 NFM II’s with Quad 99pre/99 monoblock’s amplification. Sometimes I switch with a Opera Consonance MI10se tube amp. I also have a set of the old dc-100’s that play very nice! A bit more relaxed as the NFM’s. Looking to upgrade for ‘bigger’ Tannoy’s ;)
Thank you Hans! Your video was very helpful in fine tuning the positioning of my Quad ESL 63 dipoles and the additional Townshend Maximum Supertweeters. I was triggered by the Directivity pattern and the graphic representation of the dispersion, energy and spectural balance of frequencies, taking into account toeing in the dipoles using mono Pink Noise. This resulted in less side- and backwall reflections from the dipoles. For a wider stereo- image moving the TMS -tweeters to the outside of ESL’s proved the icing on the cake!
Rilliant college course on toe-in. The mono pink noise test takes a lot of the guesswork out of the equation. I used laser pointers atop my Kef LS Meta and trial and error before finding the magic. Like a fool I failed to tape the carpet and lost it after the cleaners came, have not been able to reproduce since. This is greatly helpful. Thank you 🙏🏻
Perfect timing Hans. "Thumpups!!" 👍 🐕.. I reversed my Magnepan LRS just this week to try tweeters on the outside. First step was to follow Magnepan instructions on keeping the tweeter 25mm further away than the bass panel. Bosch laser measure makes this easy. I have GIK polyfusors behind as you recommend. The pink noise test is very useful. Thank you:-) Interestingly when you stand next to the speakers you cannot hear the sound coming from them, it appears to come from the wall behind: spooky! I like the wider soundstage so far. 🎶🤫🎶
Thank you, Hans for this video, for it's clarity, along with your (much!) earlier video about Loudspeaker placement. Even though I thought I knew about this stuff, I now realise that I had a rather one-dimensional understanding. I regularly hear the PA engineers and crew at concert halls using white and pink noise, I'd always assumed it was to test frequency response, and it never occurred to me that you could use mono pink noise for imaging-I'd up to now used familiar recordings, which works, but now you've given me a more precise tool-thanks! I also like your tip from your earlier Placement video about finding the best listening position for bass, although unfortunately I don't have long enough speaker cable to put a speaker in the listening position, so I'll have to think that one through. Hope all continues well with your health.
Excellent, I learned alot from you, and now I understand it in a completely new light. It isnt easy, but I have spent time "correcting" my loudspeakers in the room, more or less after what I learned from you, and it sounds wonderful. Thank you :) Wish you a nice day. Best regards from Norway
I found that with no toe-in my open baffle dipoles produce a coherent image and center stage but it seems to emanate from the front wall due to the large portion of the sound arriving from reflections off it. Also, to a great extent the character of the sound is that of the wall (which in my case is a large projection screen with thick foam behind it). In the case of center mic'd sounds (vocals), they appear to emanate from the front wall (which is fine for movies), while sounds from left or right appear to emanate from the speakers, which is the reverse of what one might wish to experience for say a vocalist and an orchestra. So I added a little toe in to bring the vocals forward which also adds a little sparkle due to side reflections.
Thank you Hans! Great information, very well presented - as always! So... using the Pink Noise generator I realize how sensitive my old Paradigm Studio 40s are to toe in. Probably time to upgrade! You're going to get me in trouble Hans! :-)
David Chesky, musician, producer, etc is very convinced that placement is very important. His advice is to be in an equilateral triangle (R, L, You). Then toe in per manufacture suggestion. Depending on the speakers, 6-15 feet sided equilateral triangle. Room treatment obviously is also his suggestion. For me, I am set up at an 8 feet triangle, and boxed cone speakers, I toe in about 5 degrees. Magnepan’s I use a laser which I aim right at the center of where I sit. I think it’s about 12-15 degrees.
I have been inspired to reach out to my speaker manufacturer for recommendations. Speakers came to me used, and thus a manual was lacking. Of course, there is the rabbit hole of acoustic treatment and absorption versus diffuser or a combination of both at first reflection points (plural as each speaker has two per side wall, not counting floor, ceiling, and front and back walls). Now there is a topic that could get you to 400 videos real quick! :-) Cheers and good luck with your TH-cam video library indexing project.
I have Dali I bought 20 years ago. I have put straight as recommended. But all the people that tell me it's wrong. I also have some small Tangents for movie's and they are toe- in slightly. Great video and many thanks for creating.
A popular British Hi-Fi magazine used to say all speakers should be toed in, and would declare that they disregarded manufacturer's instructions not to do so when they tested loudspeakers. I know someone who took this publication seriously. Not only did he point his Mission speakers at his head, he also turned them upside down, so that the tweeters were at ear level, another 'rule' from this magazine. I don't know why he didn't think the designers of his speakers knew what they were doing, or trying to do. I found Mission speakers on the bright side even when set up as they should have been.
A dynaudio countour s5.4 has the tweeter on the bottom and the bass drivers on top. I guess they have done something in the 6db /1st order filter to make them sound good.
Very interesting video Hans. I have used various Quad electrostatics since mid 70s...like you, the 57s (I think you referred to them as 55s), then the 63s, and for the last few years the 2812s - the finest electrostatic Quad has made....so far! I have, over nearly fifty years experimented with placement with all three models, and, firstly, come to the conclusion that all three models benefit from raising up from the floor. My latest 2812s are raised on solid custom-made frames so that the bottom of the bottom bass panel is 1 foot (30cm) from the floor. This results in less upper bass reinforcement - in fact the lower bass seems smoother and less curtailed as a result. My experiments with placement have been exhaustive: with both the 63s and 2812s I have found that best results have been with the speakers only 4'" (10cm) from the side walls, but 4 feet from the wall behind them. My toe-in may seem somewhat extreme in that I point the left speaker at the right hand end of my sofa at the listening position 11 feet away, and the right hand speaker at the left hand end of the sofa. This gives a stable image over the three seating positions available, as, in the right hand seating position one is closer to the right hand speaker but slightly more off-axis, and further away from the left hand speaker but on-axis with it. This configuration is self-righting for all positions! For 'solo' listening I have a single chair placed only 6 feet from the Quads which means the toe in is pointing directly at me.....the resulting image, with the instrument placement (on a good recording) occupying the space behind the speakers is most impressive!
Hans, you provide good food for thought in this video. And action ideas to experiment with speaker placement. Whenever we, as audiophiles, begin to want new gear to help us achieve better musical sound, perhaps we should take a pause to adjust and maximize speaker placement? (As I make a note to myself here 🎵)
I own a pair of Dali Opticon 6 speakers , and indeed the manual tells you NOT to toe in they rely on wide dispersal and it works. Its surprising how little tips here and there without spending a penny can improve your sound.
@@timothysullysullivan2571 I think me arranging my Vandys is because of my vintage Kenwood amplifier isn’t playing well anymore. I’m in the process of looking for another amp. The Vandersteens are amazing speakers!
@@timothysullysullivan2571 I think so too. The Kenwood is a powerful one. Ka-9100. I’m currently in the market for another. Looking at the Cambridge Audio AXR100. My price range is limited.
Excellent video and well explained. Having issues with speaker placement (Arendal 1723 towers) myself whereby I have the feeling that I’m missing a lot of clarity and detail. They are not high end by any means but should still perform much better than they do in our situation. These speakers use a wave guide that should allow for easier for placement if I understand correctly but I’m sure I’m not getting the most out of them. But, the room is an acoustical nightmare and not sure if I can do much to improve it. They are quite neutral speakers and currently toed in to the main listening position as also mentioned in the instructions. But will definitely try playing around and give it a go with the pink noise!
Always a delight to listen to this true expert! With nostalgia, I think back about the glorious times when I had pair of RTR DR-1, which I deeply regret to have sold due to compelling circumstances 😪 These could be placed however your wanted so to speak. They always caused eargasms.
the secret of placing speakers seems to elude many people, that manufacturers want you to be satisfied with your product and don't want its optimum use case to be a secret. They want it shouted out across the hills. Like the man says, RTFM
Hi Hans. Shouldn’t all Wide Dispersion Speakers share the same rules regarding toe in? I have Meridian DSP speakers and came to the conclusion toe in for me anyway isn’t a critical part of the set up, speaker positioning and listening position for me are far more important as this defines the balance of sound. The further I move the speakers away from the wall behind the brighter the sound and warmer the closer I get to a wall. Bass and voices sounded near identical toed in or no toe in, for me anyway. Regards Danny
Many thanks as always, Hans. I use giant electrostatics and recently have been experimenting with their placement as the result of another TH-cam channel spokesperson I've been watching discussing imaging and depth and hearing sound from behind the speakers as a consequence of toe-in. It's very complicated and so far I've not been as successful as I'd like..
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I don't intend to. The problem in using recordings , as you would well know, for carrying out those adjustments is that they - the recordings - can vary quite widely in a variety of ways so it's often difficult to decide which one(s) to work with. I like your suggestion about using pink noise so I'll see if I can obtain a recording of that.
Interesting subject. I toe in my klipsch rp8000f's towers about 15' from each other @45 degrees with dual subs behind and to the inside slightly like the manual suggests. I find I get much better soundstage and center image than with speakers firing straight forward.
Thanks Hans, this is a helpful video. I find the combination of theory and practice very useful. What do you think of placing one speaker closer to the listening position to get the center image in the middle without the toe-in being asymmetrical? This seems to work well in my room. I can imagine this could cause other problems though.
whatever sounds best. Every room is different and it’s impossible to give general rules apart from my two step approach to loudspeaker placement and this video. I even have my System 1 toed-in asymmetrical since they need to be on an asymmetrical place.
What about B&W speakers? I like mine directly pointed to my head, but I suppose to like a brighter sound (actually I find my system quite balanced); most of all, I like a dense, focused sound more than an expanded soundstage.
Thanks for the interesting video. If my speakers are off axis in the vertical & horizontal planes( ie; the MF & HF drivers sit above my ears at seating level) am I getting 2x the SPL reduction from these drivers or 1x the dB reduction?
Fabulous as always Hans. Any ideas for the nth degree of audio nirvana with toe-in for Magnepan 12qrs. I do know I prefer the tweeter inside with the speakers pulled out 1/3 into the room and quite a distance from either side wall. Love a deep and wide soundstage which is often recording dependent with the Pontus II DAC. Perhaps I am chasing my proverbial tail as the sound is beautiful. Thanks
always interested in your in-depth videos ! I have a unrelated question : I’m currently testing in my home Bel Canto REF600M monoblocs (using my Sim Audio Moon 390 as a source and into my Wilson Audio Sophia Serie 1 speakers). My normal amps are tube monoblocs (Sonic Frontiers SFM160 with KT-88 tubes). Despite a weeks of breaking I find these Class D amp very fatiguing to my ears. Have you experienced that with class D amps of is it just theses ones ?
That differs from one class D design to another. And even from one listener to another. I have not heard the Bel Canto's so I can't be specific on them.
Dear Hans, i have a question about not toeing in but tilting down my floorstanding loudspeakers. I have a pair of Focal’s 948 and those are rather tall, so the tweeter is when they are placed completely level above my sitting position. So i was thinking i will tilt them slightly forword by screwing the 2 back spikes more, by doing this the tweeters will point more directly to my ears. But hear comes my question, is this recommandabele or will this destroy the complete caracter and soundstage of my speakers? Thank you for your answer and all the best whises for the new year.
I have toe in my tower speakers with the mono pink noise according to your recommendation and the result is really great! Stereo image now is better than before! Thank you for your great videos Hans! Best for you!
When considering things like this I always wonder if the human auditory system is truly capable of detecting the time difference of arrival of sound between ears. My intuition tells me that human hearing is not sensitive enough to pick this up. Well, my intuition is wrong. According to Wikipedia references, humans can detect a difference of 10 microseconds or less of a sound arriving at the ears at different times. So at a temperature of 20c and at sea level (not sure what humidity level) a separation distance of arrival of a sound between the ears of 50mm would be a delay of about 150 microseconds, so that is apparently perceptible to human hearing.
Hi Hans, would have been great if you would have covered horn speakers as well. I am working with Lecleach horns in a 3 way system in a room where the speakers can be placed 15” from the side walls…. Any suggestions? Just tuning the system by ear, the speakers sound better with slight toe-in but i do hear a great change in the image or centring thereof when i move my head from left to right or vice versa. Thanks.
I have no hands-on experience with horn loudspeakers. But I would start with full toe-in (so the on-axis pointed towards you) and then apply small steps of outward turning using the pink noise I suggested. Listen to a strongly focussed noise source in between the speakers.
hello Hans. Most of the videos about loudspeakers placement shows only one person in the listening position but in reality a lot of times 2 or more people are listening with seating arrangements side by side, how do you account for this?
Thanks for this informative video. But what if the right speaker doesn’t have a wall next to it and that wall is like 4 meters away, and the left channel has wall almost right next to it in a diagonal arrangement in a rectangular room where the room is just long. My bass is amazing, but the highs and image suffer. Especially if I toe in a bit, everything radically changes and also if I move a few centimeters in seating position, I hear the center image differently or just not clear where it is located anymore. I get wide soundstage on the right, but missing that from the left side. Or is it how recordings are mixed? It’s all confusing. I should just give up maybe and accept the fact that that’s how it can be done.
Then the right channel has no early reflections problems thus nothing to solve. But the left ckannel ie the left channel might need more than average damping to balans out left and right
I have this issue... No wall beside right speaker. Wall beside left speaker. Imaging is never correct. Using channel balance adjustment is crucial here I think.
speakers can sound less spacious when toed in more,but fuller,more balanced. I think it makes sense to listen to every speaker individualy(mono) to finetune them. thx for all the videos
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I love the sounds in music, music comes second and sounds come first. I had gone for an audiometry test about 5 years ago, and there was a substantial drop in sensitivity in the 4KHz range. I was devastated. I guess the last 5 years of aging is taking its toll
I told you this in Facebook this is by far one of the very best Hi-Fi information and enlightenment TH-cam channels available, congratulations! this is how it should be not only vulgar salesmen disguised as reviewers trying to push says through videos
Thanks again!
The first words in this are amazing, Ive watched 24 seconds and had to comment. I've had many arguments with supposed 'teachers' on TH-cam who keep claiming they are going to tell people the 'secret' of this or that about music. I am a luthier and teach guitar, the idea of things within the musical world being 'secrets' is disgraceful, There are no secrets, just things you don't understand yet. Seriously, Thank you.
🥰
An excellent point on loudspeaker placement. My Mother would always say "When in doubt, read the instructions".
I always read the instructions first, never want to screw up new and expensive toys.
👍
I stumbled across this set of videos (13/4/2024), and I'm glad I did. There's no ridiculous attempt to be "cool" or wacky. The presenter just gives details and facts (as far as they can be given).
Very informative. Very good.✅️
🙏🙏
Why Hans does not have 3x as many subscribers, I will never know.
Well you could help by linking to my videos on the social media.🤓
I must agree. Hans is so informative. This is my new favorite channel
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel will do
All your videos are reference grade quality. Appreciate the effort. Thanks
I appreciate that!
"I'll be back" worst Arnold Schwarzenegger impression I have ever heard! Seriously, however great video and helpful graphics. My problem is I have open doorways on my side walls which create unique problems for reflection. Your advice of "listening and experimenting" is, of course, the answer. Your videos always brighten up my Saturday mornings (in Australia).
Arnold who?😁
Glad to have you back this week, Hans!
👍🏻
Uncle Hans coming with the easy to understand instructions...this man is an Americ...(er)...A Dutch treasure!!!! By the way, you need to have a live show one day...we need to know about the man behind this after all these years!!!
🙏🏻
An excellent and informative video. The diagrams you put up might not be the best drawings but they convey your message perfectly.
Thank you very much!
With my Golden Ear Triton 3+ proper toe-in was critical. I used a laser range finder from speaker to listening position to adjust distance and angle of the speakers. I was rewarded with a wide deep stereo image and smooth frequency response.
👍
The Tritons are really impressive
Thank you Hans for your clear explanation- as always! I learned something new about the different loudspeaker designs and their properties.
🙏🏽
Brilliant information, and much appreciated. I just happen to battling the fine tuning of my speakers for best soundstage. This information will be valuable to me. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Very welcome!
Wow, just discovered the channel and am excited to have such great content to watch. I have been a speaker "nut" for many years and have forgotten probably more than I remember and look forward to brushing up on things with your channels content. Thank You Hans!
Welcome aboard!
Bang on with regards to GoldenEar. When I first got a pair of Triton 2+ I played with the toe in for about a month, adding toe in an inch or two at a time. I found the sound was really locked to the speakers, with some but imaging but nothing to write home about. When I finally got the speakers directly on axis with my mlp they just disappeared! I think I've had them for 5+ years now and their ability to place sound everywhere still blow my mind.
👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Good video, Hans. You took it back to the basics with very clear explanations........Thanks!
🙏🏽
Cannot thank you enough for your outstanding post. What a night and day improvement in my system. Thank you again.
Great to hear!
Thanx so much for the pink noise link!.
You're welcome!
As always, very informative. I still consider myself a newb and am always taken back at how complex a sterio, something so seemingly simple, can be. I always have music on. Always. I never really gave much thought to how much it changes with even small changes to the source. The placement. The room. And on and on.
Great to hear!
“Nowadays unacceptable for the aesthetics commission I’m afraid” ….lol, good diplomacy :)
the commission with one powerful member: WIFE!
@@khoi83 although it shouldn’t be like that
I was only kidding'. Try dialog as an alternative!! Works for me.
Best advice ever!. Read the user manual and start where they recommend. Tannoy recommend toeing their duel concentric speakers so that they cross in front of the listener. I thought that was odd and would never of thought to try that position if they hadn't of mentioned it After trying it they were right and that's where there staying.
And you now know why
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I believe that it works because the speakers single point source horn design. The tone doesn't change on or off axis. However the volume does change. They play louder when pointing directly at you. So as you move your head to one side, the closer speaker is more off axis and sounds quieter and the one further away now plays louder. This effect balances the sound and gives a larger sweet spot to sit in. It also reduces room reflections and creates a deeper sound stage.
I will give that extreme toe in a try again. I have my Tannoy dc’s setup with little toe in. They sound very nice that way. Which dc’s do you have?
@@henrym78 l have a pair of Canterbury' SE. Driven by a KR Audio VA880. My room is 5m x 5m . A square room s a nightmare but the Tannoy's design reduce most of the issues to a level where room treatments can fix them
@@stephens2r338 I also have a square room, 4.7x4.7m (4.3m ceiling)! I use the Tannoy system 8 NFM II’s with Quad 99pre/99 monoblock’s amplification. Sometimes I switch with a Opera Consonance MI10se tube amp. I also have a set of the old dc-100’s that play very nice! A bit more relaxed as the NFM’s. Looking to upgrade for ‘bigger’ Tannoy’s ;)
Thank you Hans!
Your video was very helpful in fine tuning the positioning of my Quad ESL 63 dipoles and the additional Townshend Maximum Supertweeters.
I was triggered by the Directivity pattern and the graphic representation of the dispersion, energy and spectural balance of frequencies, taking into account toeing in the dipoles using mono Pink Noise.
This resulted in less side- and backwall reflections from the dipoles.
For a wider stereo- image moving the TMS -tweeters to the outside of ESL’s proved the icing on the cake!
👍🏼
Rilliant college course on toe-in. The mono pink noise test takes a lot of the guesswork out of the equation. I used laser pointers atop my Kef LS Meta and trial and error before finding the magic. Like a fool I failed to tape the carpet and lost it after the cleaners came, have not been able to reproduce since. This is greatly helpful. Thank you 🙏🏻
My pleasure
Perfect timing Hans.
"Thumpups!!" 👍 🐕..
I reversed my Magnepan LRS just this week to try tweeters on the outside. First step was to follow Magnepan instructions on keeping the tweeter 25mm further away than the bass panel. Bosch laser measure makes this easy.
I have GIK polyfusors behind as you recommend. The pink noise test is very useful. Thank you:-)
Interestingly when you stand next to the speakers you cannot hear the sound coming from them, it appears to come from the wall behind: spooky!
I like the wider soundstage so far.
🎶🤫🎶
Enjoy the music!!
Thank you, Hans for this video, for it's clarity, along with your (much!) earlier video about Loudspeaker placement. Even though I thought I knew about this stuff, I now realise that I had a rather one-dimensional understanding. I regularly hear the PA engineers and crew at concert halls using white and pink noise, I'd always assumed it was to test frequency response, and it never occurred to me that you could use mono pink noise for imaging-I'd up to now used familiar recordings, which works, but now you've given me a more precise tool-thanks! I also like your tip from your earlier Placement video about finding the best listening position for bass, although unfortunately I don't have long enough speaker cable to put a speaker in the listening position, so I'll have to think that one through. Hope all continues well with your health.
Enjoy the music
Excellent, I learned alot from you, and now I understand it in a completely new light. It isnt easy, but I have spent time "correcting" my loudspeakers in the room, more or less after what I learned from you, and it sounds wonderful. Thank you :) Wish you a nice day. Best regards from Norway
🙏
Excellent video Hans I really enjoyed this one, some good practical advice there combined with some experimentation for the final 20% 🙂👍🎧
Glad you enjoyed it
Hans your channel is full of wisdom and good advise Thank You Sir 😉👍
🙏🏻🙏🏻
I found that with no toe-in my open baffle dipoles produce a coherent image and center stage but it seems to emanate from the front wall due to the large portion of the sound arriving from reflections off it. Also, to a great extent the character of the sound is that of the wall (which in my case is a large projection screen with thick foam behind it). In the case of center mic'd sounds (vocals), they appear to emanate from the front wall (which is fine for movies), while sounds from left or right appear to emanate from the speakers, which is the reverse of what one might wish to experience for say a vocalist and an orchestra. So I added a little toe in to bring the vocals forward which also adds a little sparkle due to side reflections.
👍
Thank you Hans! Great information, very well presented - as always! So... using the Pink Noise generator I realize how sensitive my old Paradigm Studio 40s are to toe in. Probably time to upgrade! You're going to get me in trouble Hans! :-)
I only made you realise you were in trouble all ready.😁
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel indeed! 😊
David Chesky, musician, producer, etc is very convinced that placement is very important. His advice is to be in an equilateral triangle (R, L, You).
Then toe in per manufacture suggestion. Depending on the speakers, 6-15 feet sided equilateral triangle. Room treatment obviously is also his suggestion.
For me, I am set up at an 8 feet triangle, and boxed cone speakers, I toe in about 5 degrees. Magnepan’s I use a laser which I aim right at the center of where I sit. I think it’s about 12-15 degrees.
You must have missed my first video on TH-cam: th-cam.com/video/gXohzklfwPs/w-d-xo.html
I have been inspired to reach out to my speaker manufacturer for recommendations. Speakers came to me used, and thus a manual was lacking. Of course, there is the rabbit hole of acoustic treatment and absorption versus diffuser or a combination of both at first reflection points (plural as each speaker has two per side wall, not counting floor, ceiling, and front and back walls). Now there is a topic that could get you to 400 videos real quick! :-) Cheers and good luck with your TH-cam video library indexing project.
.
I have Dali I bought 20 years ago.
I have put straight as recommended. But all the people that tell me it's wrong.
I also have some small Tangents for movie's and they are toe- in slightly.
Great video and many thanks for creating.
👍🏼
A popular British Hi-Fi magazine used to say all speakers should be toed in, and would declare that they disregarded manufacturer's instructions not to do so when they tested loudspeakers.
I know someone who took this publication seriously. Not only did he point his Mission speakers at his head, he also turned them upside down, so that the tweeters were at ear level, another 'rule' from this magazine. I don't know why he didn't think the designers of his speakers knew what they were doing, or trying to do. I found Mission speakers on the bright side even when set up as they should have been.
agreed
A dynaudio countour s5.4 has the tweeter on the bottom and the bass drivers on top. I guess they have done something in the 6db /1st order filter to make them sound good.
Very interesting video Hans. I have used various Quad electrostatics since mid 70s...like you, the 57s (I think you referred to them as 55s), then the 63s, and for the last few years the 2812s - the finest electrostatic Quad has made....so far!
I have, over nearly fifty years experimented with placement with all three models, and, firstly, come to the conclusion that all three models benefit from raising up from the floor. My latest 2812s are raised on solid custom-made frames so that the bottom of the bottom bass panel is 1 foot (30cm) from the floor. This results in less upper bass reinforcement - in fact the lower bass seems smoother and less curtailed as a result.
My experiments with placement have been exhaustive: with both the 63s and 2812s I have found that best results have been with the speakers only 4'" (10cm) from the side walls, but 4 feet from the wall behind them. My toe-in may seem somewhat extreme in that I point the left speaker at the right hand end of my sofa at the listening position 11 feet away, and the right hand speaker at the left hand end of the sofa. This gives a stable image over the three seating positions available, as, in the right hand seating position one is closer to the right hand speaker but slightly more off-axis, and further away from the left hand speaker but on-axis with it. This configuration is self-righting for all positions!
For 'solo' listening I have a single chair placed only 6 feet from the Quads which means the toe in is pointing directly at me.....the resulting image, with the instrument placement (on a good recording) occupying the space behind the speakers is most impressive!
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for the advice. And for the idea of imagining the walls as glass.
Glad it was helpful!
Hans, you provide good food for thought in this video. And action ideas to experiment with speaker placement. Whenever we, as audiophiles, begin to want new gear to help us achieve better musical sound, perhaps we should take a pause to adjust and maximize speaker placement? (As I make a note to myself here 🎵)
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I own a pair of Dali Opticon 6 speakers , and indeed the manual tells you NOT to toe in they rely on wide dispersal and it works.
Its surprising how little tips here and there without spending a penny can improve your sound.
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@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Thanks Hanz great advise.
As always, insights that lead to refinement in music setup!
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Great video, Hans!
Thank you very much!
A very interesting video, thank you!
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Thanks Hans! I’m constantly rearranging my Vandersteens 2Cs.
why? I'm about to buy a pair. i would expect them to place fairly easily.
@@timothysullysullivan2571 I think me arranging my Vandys is because of my vintage Kenwood amplifier isn’t playing well anymore. I’m in the process of looking for another amp. The Vandersteens are amazing speakers!
Best of luck!
@@glissonj73 oh. i think an amp upgrade will pay big improvements for you.
@@timothysullysullivan2571 I think so too. The Kenwood is a powerful one. Ka-9100. I’m currently in the market for another. Looking at the Cambridge Audio AXR100. My price range is limited.
Excellent video and well explained. Having issues with speaker placement (Arendal 1723 towers) myself whereby I have the feeling that I’m missing a lot of clarity and detail. They are not high end by any means but should still perform much better than they do in our situation.
These speakers use a wave guide that should allow for easier for placement if I understand correctly but I’m sure I’m not getting the most out of them. But, the room is an acoustical nightmare and not sure if I can do much to improve it.
They are quite neutral speakers and currently toed in to the main listening position as also mentioned in the instructions. But will definitely try playing around and give it a go with the pink noise!
Go for it.
Always a delight to listen to this true expert!
With nostalgia, I think back about the glorious times when I had pair of RTR DR-1, which I deeply regret to have sold due to compelling circumstances 😪
These could be placed however your wanted so to speak. They always caused eargasms.
Love eargasms
Hans. Welcome back. We miss u
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Thank you very much Hans, very interesting 👍🏼 ATB Peter
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the secret of placing speakers seems to elude many people, that manufacturers want you to be satisfied with your product and don't want its optimum use case to be a secret. They want it shouted out across the hills. Like the man says, RTFM
I didn't say it that rude, I think...
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel oh was that rude? I was just being emphatic.
It’s the RTFM..
Thank you Hans, very helpful for an audiophile newbie like me!
Great to hear!
Thank you Hans and enjoyed the video and now the Music!
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Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
My pleasure. Enjoy the music.
Hi Hans. Shouldn’t all Wide Dispersion Speakers share the same rules regarding toe in? I have Meridian DSP speakers and came to the conclusion toe in for me anyway isn’t a critical part of the set up, speaker positioning and listening position for me are far more important as this defines the balance of sound. The further I move the speakers away from the wall behind the brighter the sound and warmer the closer I get to a wall. Bass and voices sounded near identical toed in or no toe in, for me anyway. Regards Danny
The distance to walls define the coupling with the walls of low frequencies. Toeing-in has to do with the stereo image.
Great info cheers from Trinidad.
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Excellent information! Lots to consider 🤔
Thanks for watching!
Many thanks as always, Hans. I use giant electrostatics and recently have been experimenting with their placement as the result of another TH-cam channel spokesperson I've been watching discussing imaging and depth and hearing sound from behind the speakers as a consequence of toe-in. It's very complicated and so far I've not been as successful as I'd like..
Don't give up!
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I don't intend to. The problem in using recordings , as you would well know, for carrying out those adjustments is that they - the recordings - can vary quite widely in a variety of ways so it's often difficult to decide which one(s) to work with. I like your suggestion about using pink noise so I'll see if I can obtain a recording of that.
Interesting subject. I toe in my klipsch rp8000f's towers about 15' from each other @45 degrees with dual subs behind and to the inside slightly like the manual suggests. I find I get much better soundstage and center image than with speakers firing straight forward.
It all depends on the technical design of the loudspeakers
Thanks!! Helpful video!!
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Thanks Hans, this is a helpful video. I find the combination of theory and practice very useful.
What do you think of placing one speaker closer to the listening position to get the center image in the middle without the toe-in being asymmetrical? This seems to work well in my room. I can imagine this could cause other problems though.
whatever sounds best. Every room is different and it’s impossible to give general rules apart from my two step approach to loudspeaker placement and this video. I even have my System 1 toed-in asymmetrical since they need to be on an asymmetrical place.
"...Just Sayin'!"... Haha! Thanks Hans, excellent vid and very informative and interesting as is usual.
Glad you enjoyed it
What about B&W speakers? I like mine directly pointed to my head, but I suppose to like a brighter sound (actually I find my system quite balanced); most of all, I like a dense, focused sound more than an expanded soundstage.
you gave the answer yourself already
Fantastic explanation, thank you.
You're very welcome!
Thanks for the interesting video. If my speakers are off axis in the vertical & horizontal planes( ie; the MF & HF drivers sit above my ears at seating level) am I getting 2x the SPL reduction from these drivers or 1x the dB reduction?
Fabulous as always Hans. Any ideas for the nth degree of audio nirvana with toe-in for Magnepan 12qrs. I do know I prefer the tweeter inside with the speakers pulled out 1/3 into the room and quite a distance from either side wall. Love a deep and wide soundstage which is often recording dependent with the Pontus II DAC. Perhaps I am chasing my proverbial tail as the sound is beautiful. Thanks
No, sorry
always interested in your in-depth videos ! I have a unrelated question : I’m currently testing in my home Bel Canto REF600M monoblocs (using my Sim Audio Moon 390 as a source and into my Wilson Audio Sophia Serie 1 speakers). My normal amps are tube monoblocs (Sonic Frontiers SFM160 with KT-88 tubes). Despite a weeks of breaking I find these Class D amp very fatiguing to my ears. Have you experienced that with class D amps of is it just theses ones ?
That differs from one class D design to another. And even from one listener to another. I have not heard the Bel Canto's so I can't be specific on them.
Dear Hans, i have a question about not toeing in but tilting down my floorstanding loudspeakers. I have a pair of Focal’s 948 and those are rather tall, so the tweeter is when they are placed completely level above my sitting position. So i was thinking i will tilt them slightly forword by screwing the 2
back spikes more, by doing this the tweeters will point more directly to my ears. But hear comes my question, is this recommandabele or will this destroy the complete caracter and soundstage of my speakers? Thank you for your answer and all the best whises for the new year.
Just use your ears.
Thank you Hans another great video I really appreciate the info! New sub
Thanks for the sub!
I have toe in my tower speakers with the mono pink noise according to your recommendation and the result is really great! Stereo image now is better than before! Thank you for your great videos Hans! Best for you!
Sounds great!
When considering things like this I always wonder if the human auditory system is truly capable of detecting the time difference of arrival of sound between ears. My intuition tells me that human hearing is not sensitive enough to pick this up. Well, my intuition is wrong. According to Wikipedia references, humans can detect a difference of 10 microseconds or less of a sound arriving at the ears at different times. So at a temperature of 20c and at sea level (not sure what humidity level) a separation distance of arrival of a sound between the ears of 50mm would be a delay of about 150 microseconds, so that is apparently perceptible to human hearing.
You could try to listen to high end audio to find out.
Hi Hans, would have been great if you would have covered horn speakers as well. I am working with Lecleach horns in a 3 way system in a room where the speakers can be placed 15” from the side walls…. Any suggestions? Just tuning the system by ear, the speakers sound better with slight toe-in but i do hear a great change in the image or centring thereof when i move my head from left to right or vice versa. Thanks.
I have no hands-on experience with horn loudspeakers. But I would start with full toe-in (so the on-axis pointed towards you) and then apply small steps of outward turning using the pink noise I suggested. Listen to a strongly focussed noise source in between the speakers.
I like my 3way open baffle speakers facing dead on no toe in or out and love the sound
Whatever works for you
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel thank you for the video was good to get some good information though
nice explanation video!
Thank you!
hello Hans. Most of the videos about loudspeakers placement shows only one person in the listening position but in reality a lot of times 2 or more people are listening with seating arrangements side by side, how do you account for this?
You can broaden the 'hotspot' by either toeing in or out, depending on your gear and room.
Thanks for this informative video. But what if the right speaker doesn’t have a wall next to it and that wall is like 4 meters away, and the left channel has wall almost right next to it in a diagonal arrangement in a rectangular room where the room is just long. My bass is amazing, but the highs and image suffer. Especially if I toe in a bit, everything radically changes and also if I move a few centimeters in seating position, I hear the center image differently or just not clear where it is located anymore. I get wide soundstage on the right, but missing that from the left side. Or is it how recordings are mixed? It’s all confusing. I should just give up maybe and accept the fact that that’s how it can be done.
Then the right channel has no early reflections problems thus nothing to solve. But the left ckannel ie the left channel might need more than average damping to balans out left and right
I have this issue... No wall beside right speaker. Wall beside left speaker. Imaging is never correct. Using channel balance adjustment is crucial here I think.
My harbeth seems to be a little better when there’s a slight toe in
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Outstanding!!
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Thank you
My pleasure
More videos like this
I try
Great, thank you
My pleasure.
Thanks hans
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my speakers lean backwards a very small degree,3mm higher on frontspikes,somebody adviced this.
The thought behind that is to line up all drivers in the vertical pane. Most speakers are designed to do this when placed on its own feet.
speakers can sound less spacious when toed in more,but fuller,more balanced.
I think it makes sense to listen to every speaker individualy(mono) to finetune them.
thx for all the videos
unfortunately living is the most important thing for the most people in their living room..
Be creative, works for my. I work from out my living (where my setup 1 resides).
Thanks Hans 👏 we’ll miss you ✌️
I’ll be back soon.
Either I am going deaf, or this video has very low volume.
Sorry but then I've got bad news for you🥴
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel ;)
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I love the sounds in music, music comes second and sounds come first. I had gone for an audiometry test about 5 years ago, and there was a substantial drop in sensitivity in the 4KHz range. I was devastated. I guess the last 5 years of aging is taking its toll