Hi, some of you been mentioning a lab test which shows Rohloff is more efficient. Here is my opinion regarding that: I can't comment about that lab test : I am not a scientist so I can't judge any lab test. But above any kind of test for me it is the real life experience which matters at the end of the day. I am not cycling inside the Lab invironment. There can be factors efecting the performance in real life which are not calculated on the lab test. The reason sience is always keep developing, we never will have Ultimate sience. But real life and what we experience I think is the truth. But this is my humble opinion 😊
Maybe because Rohloff is the hub, which would have a higher moment of inertia, it would requires more torque to accelerate which gives the sluggish feel. Even if at a constant speed the Rohloff delivers useful work a small amount more efficiently.
100% agree. Not being an expert on both of these drives, but being a common-sense based middle-aged person with lots of wisdom, I would never choose the Pinion. It requires a special frame. If something ever went wrong, you are screwed. The whole bike is down. With the Rohlhoff, in contrast, worst case you just throw a different wheel on the bike if you are in a jam say in a foreign country. Easy decision.
There is on average a factor 3 more belt tension with Rohloff than with Pinion, because the rear gear wheels differ that factor in number of teeth. So strange that this gets nowhere any attention? As also the whole drive train (and bicycle frame) is under 3 times more tension, this must have some implications on the efficiency? And this must also play in the lifetime of the belts?!?!? Anybody practical experience with that? PS: the efficiency comparison tests I found up to date are all executed with chains, not fully representative for the belt driven versions!!! Myself very happy driving Rohloff for 12 years already!
Theres no need for ultimate science because theres already science. opinion ≠ truth. "There can be factors efecting the performance in real life which are not calculated on the lab test" such as?
The Rohloff is indubitably more efficient than the pinion p1.18. If the C1.12 is more efficient that still would only mean a few percent at most as at say 100W (touring power output), where the efficiency of the Rohloff is about 93%, a single speed about 97% so the c1.12 could at best be a few percent better than the Rohloff hub, as it has to be less efficient than the single speed. Do you really feel a few percent difference when riding? Highly unlikely. Other factors including psychological factors and riding position are more likely the cause, perhaps the type of oil used in each gives a lot of friction in extremely cold temperatures (say -15C and lower). I don't feel that the Rohloff is heavy going after having ridden on my other touring bike with 3x9 derailleur. But it does make more noise, and on good roads I feel vibrations in the pedals/saddle from the hub. Such factors can influence the perception of people. The most likely cause for the bikes feeling different is that they are different in riding position. From the screenshot of the video the bike with Rohloff has the saddle more forward, with a steeper seat tube angle and a shorter virtual top tube. As most riders except some fast riders (e.g. triathlon) prefer the saddle more to the rear, this can definitely influence how you feel the bike rides compred to the bike with pinion with seemingly a longer tube tube (virtual top tube I estimate from the picture, ca. 2-3 cm more on the bike with pinion, maybe a part of this is caused from the camera angle but I estimate the difference is real), and that position will make you ride in a more aerodynamic position which is not just good for fast riging but also makes it easier to put out more power without you feeling you need to do much more effort. So, 1) how do you determine that one bike is more efficient? 2) At what temperatures did you test? 3) have you compared the riding positions and whether you like the position on one more than on another and compared with another bike with say derailleur?
It was only a matter of time before you guys ditched your old bikes and got the best bikes going for long distance cycle touring. These bikes are a MASSIVE upgrade to what you were riding previously which I am sure you know and why you are smiling from ear to ear. But not sure why you didn't go for the Pinion P1.18 gearboxs on both bikes as you ride fully loaded and more gears are good or did you just want to do the comparison? Belt drives are the way to go. I have one bike with Rohloff and chain with chain cover and another with Rohloff with Gates belt drive. I much prefer riding the belt drive bike as it is just so quiet and absolutely zero maintenance with the drive train, except for changing the Rohloff oil every 5,000 km. I have had 6 years and 60,000 kms of problem free cycling with my Rohloff equipped bikes. I shall never go back to derailleur bikes for cycle touring as they are just so primitive. The Rohloff hub gets a lot looser and quieter the more miles you ride it. The gear change is easy and precise and has never missed a beat on my bikes. I am well happy with it, BUT I am also interested in the Pinion Gearbox for all the reasons you give plus I like well engineered machinery and for this reason my next bike will be a Pinion gearbox bike with belt drive. Enjoy your Tout Terrain Silk Road bikes. They are built for serious heavy duty long distance touring. This is set to be an epic comparison. Two top German hubs battling it out. It's like BMW v Porsche. I am sure you will test both gearboxes to their limits. Just keep up the oil changes.
Is it normal if I buy Tout Silk Road even I don't need one except riding in city from market to market ? I just like quality and looking and I enjoy it even from screen
@Alex Morgan I'm not sure about Tout Terrain Silk Road Pinion whether it is offered with the Pinion C1.12 and only on request you can get the Pinion P1.18? But you're right I'd always prefer the P1.18 to the C1.12 if possible. 😍(As for the gear range the P18 has 636% and the C12 "only" 600% while the Rohloff is further down at 526% - pretty impressive in favor of Pinion!) The "normal" German car battle would be between BMW vs Mercedes! 😇
@@MusikPiratCH It's not so much the gear range but the steps between the gears that is more important. Smaller steps are preferable. Rohloff is 13.4% between gears. I think Pinion's premiium P1.18 might be less. Don't know about their C1.12 gearboxes. Yes I made an error with my car analogy. It should be between BMW and Audi.
@@alexmorgan3435 I'm not that sure that the steps between the gears is more important than the gear range. If I chose the setup wisely with both Pinion I could have (in theory) one gear (at least) more than with the Rohloff. It's true that the C12 has 17% between the gears while the P18 has 11.5%. Here the Rohloff has the advantage to the C12 - right. 😍 In Germany and Switzerland the German car comparision is always BMW vs Mercedes! 😇
@@MusikPiratCH Trust me the steps between gears is most important especially if your are climbing a steep ascent on a loaded touring bike. Have you done this? If you have you instantly know what I mean., Also even on the flat if you encounter a head wind or a gentle rise, you don't want a massive jump down to the next low gear as this will massively reduce your forward speed or if you remain in the same gear, then unnecessary energy expenditure to hold that gear without slowing down. The car analogy what ever. I submit to you.
We had very tight time table to get the bikes at the time, because of this Tout Terrain didn't have the possibility to do many changes in the bikes. so the C 12 was on the bike. But so far we ever felt we need more gears, gear range in both of the bikes has been perfect. :)
hey guys , could you pls go over the brooks saddle on the next episode? ive got mine for around 2 months and its still super annoying.. how long did it take until yours got "normal".. ty for all the inspiration!
Stick with it. It took me longer than 2 months to get used to it. Not sure what you find annoying so hard to recommend anything specific. For me, I stopped wearing padded cycling pants, made a big difference. Now I wear loose fitting underwear and comfy shorts typically.
@@carbon12atom Eric from 'De Vakantiefietser' did this years ago as an april 1st joke with a P18 and Rohloff, claiming a new record for a 252 speed bike 😁
There is a weight limit to Rohloff hubs. I broke three in a row until they told me I was pushing too much weight. Switched to pinion gearbox same weight and no problems.
@@oilcanracer6388. I have 2 hubs . One is 16, the other 11 years old. My weight is 100 kg. Cycle plus luagage 50 kg. Only once a problem with shifting. Freight and repair paid by Rohloff
@@oilcanracer6388 Sounds kind of strange because Rohloff is also used on tandem bikes, double the power on the hub. In normal push bikes they use teflon bushings, if you are to strong Rohloff changes the bushings to metal bushings only on request and placed by one of the Rohloff distributors. There is no need for replacing the hub, because the busings are kind of a safety they made into the hub for riders who seem to be to strong. When you put to much power on it, the teflon bushings wear out or break. Rohloff places metal bushings standard in tandem bicycles. I drove both and had several rohloff bikes and until now two 1.18 pinion bikes, all made by Santos bikes. Where Pinion lacks is on there on the field service. Rohloff even tends to send a reapair man to you when the cost of shipping the wheel to germany or a distributor is to expensive. With Pinion I already had some troubles with a leaking gearbox, got it returned after three weeks but only after a lot of phone calls. Leaked again after two weeks and got a new gearbox after a couple of months negotiating with Pinion. Effeciency of Rohloff on internal resistance is better than Pinion. the only thing that's better by Pinion is the wider gear range. But you will need it because the Pinion bike is a lot heavier not only because of the gearbox but also because of the welding lugs and stiffer frame that is needed.
I change the oil on my Rohloff every 10,000 Km with no problems. Was thinking of changing to a Veer belt drive system, so thanks for the info guys...😎👍
This was a very entertaining and informative video. Do you feel that you gave up anything with the C1.12 while touring that you may have gotten from the P1.18? Keep pedaling and making great videos.
Cycling About mentioned that they did a lab test that showed that the Rohloff was more efficient. Interesting that your real world use has a different subjective feel. I would be curious to hear why do you guys think you have differing opinions?
Hi, I can't comment about the lab test you mentioned above.But Just calling an information lab test it dosen't mean it an Ultimate truth. Also I am not a scientist so I can't judge any lab test, also it is important to know if the lab test has been done independentley or not. But above the all for me it is the real life experience. At the end of the day we are not cycling inside the Lab invironment. There can be factors efecting the performance in real life which are not calculated on the lab test. The reason is sience is always keep developing, we never will have Ultimate sience. But real life and what we experience I think is the truth. But this is my humble opinion 😊
Outstanding real life test. Agree that lab testing only provides engineer level results NOT real world results. Life Is dice roll each day real knowledge IS squeezed from each event, THIS is the most useful elixar to drink! Its intelligence....that other stuff from books is just opinions concepts ....as a cyclist on a budget if money was no obstacle and serious touring was a goal would defer to pinion. Strongly agree with another post ... " much easier is replace drive wheel if needed.." much respect to both drive systems they are truely phonomenal! Cheers.
Both the Industry 9 Hydra and the Onyx sprag clutch system hubs are good. Onyx is a bit heavier but silent. Hydra does make sound, but can be quieted to near silence depending on how much grease you daub on the pawls. Both are pricey, but as mentioned help the Pinion gearbox perform better.
Great comparison of the two systems, both of which are great. I was recently considering which I would get for myself and chose the Pinion with the Gates belt drive. Seems you like it better over all so maybe I made the right decision. Two important things you mentioned: apparently the Pinion is less effort to pedal, and the Rohloff needs an oil change if you submerge the rear hub. Two very important considerations that I was not aware of when I was thinking about what to get for my self. Love your videos and look forward to enjoying your adventures! :-)
I've just discovered 'Veer' non-continuous belt drives - can be retro-fitted to any bike with no frame modifications required.. belt splits to pass thru frame and is held together with rivets/pins.. don't know how it compares to Gates for longevity & reliability but it was a useful find..
I've seen them as well but some folks on forums were mentioning that they are build without the center gap. Similar to first generations of Gates belts that had problems with getting clogged with dirt, skipping and even snapping. So I am waiting for some reviews on Veer system.
this has been a topic on mind for several years, how fortunate you are on top of the vibe and pointing toward great topics and information for us. thank you.
A chainring of 60 and a cog of 19 for the Rohloff bike? That means a basis ratio bigger than 3… Except for really flat terrains, it is MUCH too big for a loaded touring bike. For this kind of bike, the recommended ratio's for a Rohloff hub are those close to 2 or slightly smaller, 42/20 or 42/22 for example (Rohloff does not support hubs set with a basis ratio smaller than 1.9). A big ratio like the one you have chosen also means that you have to spend a lot of time using the smallest speeds (1 to 7), which are the noisiest and the least efficient of the hub (though still-slightly-more efficient than all Pinion gears according to the study alluded elsewhere). The basis ratio chosen for the Pinion bike (39/32) makes much more sense, as it means that your lower gears are way better suited for a heavily loaded touring bike. A great tool for gears choice: www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html That being said, I wish you the best of luck for your amazing adventures all over the world. Pinion or Rohloff are only but tools. As we say in French: l'essentiel est ailleurs, the most important is somewhere else.
Nice videos. IMO, You both need a chaincase, belt or not. Dirt, sticks, or ice will for sure bugger things where you are going. I made my case with CF and some stainless metal where it joins, tight fit. Wasn't easy to make, but it will last forever. It does have a stupidly big hole because of the alu crankarm though. So fine dust still gets in the chain. I still haven't seen a downhill race between these two to test drag. I have compared my Rohloff to a SA XL-RD5w. The Rohloff is 3 mph slower, 43 vs 46 mph. The Rohl IS getting faster with age. I have no problems at all with my Rohloff14 on my 120 lb heavyweight, for 17,200 miles so far. I'm 170 -185 lbs. For a front hub I have a SA XL-FDD dyno DRUM brake, that has done 26,000 flawless miles. You should as well. ZERO to fix or worry about in any weather. Only one side bearing went dry and it ate 4 balls, LOL. It is now on it's third bike, a steel roadster. I then built a new wheel the same, for on the tour bike. I don't know how the hell you ride in cold and snow. I wouldn't last 5 minutes. 3C for 6 hours in China mountains was bad enough for me. One of those days I was riding on wet clay and needing my rain cape on. I was sweating like hell too. Not good on cold days.
Thanks a lot guys for this comparison and the insights provided. By switching the bikes and cycling side-by-side you can really make a profound judgement! Besides, it’s so nice to see from you again after a long time. Looking forward to more winter videos! Keep going :)
Thank you Peyman & Matilda for this very interesting video. I noticed you have Cane Creek sear posts. I’d be interested in your feedback on it: I bought the thudbuster G4 ST to go with my Brooks B17 saddle, but have issues with the horizontal adjustment of the saddle: no matter how hard I tighten the screw, the saddle always ends up tilting back and the position is therefore uncomfortable. Did you experience similar issues and how did you solve rhis ? I contacted
I own a vintage bike with a Rohloff hub, hasn't let me down so far :). I never had spontaneous shifting. The clicks are in the hub, once you have shifted gear the cables are not under tension. Maybe your shifter was a bit out of position. But I can't tell for sure - I ride with dropped bar shifters, and they work different. Great comparison btw.! Have fun on all your trips!!!
@@noproblem2big337 Nothing in special. The classic Rohlof has got a width of 148mm, so it fits in an old frame. I run it with a chain though, since you can't open the frame for a belt. Shifting is done with SRAM shifters combined with a Rohbox transmission at the rear axle.
About your chainring to sprocket tooth ratios (1:38 min and 1:44 min): This is really absurd for the Rohloff bike! On the one hand, Pinion's 39 : 32 is reasonable. On 26 inch tires, with cycling speed of 88 RPM you get speeds between 7.3 km/h (1st gear) and 43.7 km//h (12th gear). On the other hand, with your Rohloff bike's absurd 60 tooth chainring and 19 tooth sprocket, you end up, at 88 RPM, with speeds between 9.6 and 50.4 km/h. This is absurd for touring! You are missing low gears and won't need the upper gears. And what is worse: The 11th gear, which is Rohloff's best efficiency gear (1:1 ratio), gives you a speed of 34.4 km/h, which you'll hardly ever use except in short downhill passages. Also the 8th gear (the lowest of the high-efficiency-low-noise Rohloff gears) maps to a rather high 23.4 km/h, so you are likely using the noisy and lower-efficiency gears 1-7 (7th gear=20.6 km/h) most of the time. No wonder that you had the impression Rohloff is less efficient. It was clearly due to a very unreasonable (too huge) chainring! For a fair comparison you should've used a 46 : 19 or even better a 38 : 16 ratio on the Rohloff bike, meaning almost identical lowest 1st gear as Pinion (7.21 vs. 7.28 km/h), while gear 8 = 17.6 km/h, gear 11 = 25.9 km/h and gear 14 = 37.9 km/h (always for 88 RPM). This way you'd drive in the efficient gears 8-14 most of the time and use the best gear 11 reasonably often. Note: For these calculation I reduce the 26 inch tire diameter by 4 mm to account for some flattening of the tire to get more practically realistic numbers (just in case someone wants to re-calculate my numbers).
I‘ve been cycling more than 30,000 km with my heavy loaded Pinion P1.18 & Gates CDX powered travel bike since 2017 and only have had twice an issue with a slightly leaking crank bearing seal, which have been fixed by Pinion within the 5 years guarantee as I came back home from my 2018 (8,800 km) and 2019 (6,000km) tours. I recommend to carry out Pinion’s “factory inspection” after basic guarantee has expired to preserve the reliability of the gearbox and obtain a 2 years follow-up guarantee.
I have 35,000km and my brother 42,000km in a few years on our pinion gearbox belt drive bikes. No problems other than needing to add oil every 2,000km to keep the gearbox from dragging in higher gears. We both still on the same belt also.
Same problem with my C1.12 with 14.000km. Anyway, the pinion and belt combination is the best I've ever tried. it will not be the most efficient, but it is clean and durable
Thanks for the comparo guys. Alee Denham as some lab results over on his website comparing Pinion vs Rohloff. www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/ They show Rohloff as having greater efficency, around 5%. Perhaps the efficency loss you feel is due to the very low temperatures? The Rohloff oil may become more viscous at those temperatures. Keep up the good work and the pedalling!
Most welcome, in our experience at below zero temperatures Rohloff has noticeably drag compare to Pinion. We will keep you updated when the summer comes how they perform. Dunno much about how that lab test has been done, can't comment on it 😊
Thank you very much..! Just the kind of review I have been hoping for. I live in a very cold and wet climate and so the test conditions answer just the kind of questions that I have. Down to what minimum temperature did you ride..? Thanks...!!
it might be the drag difference comes not from the gearbox but from the belt setup... I tried both as an ebike and went for the electric rohloff E14. And in germany you get a lifetime warranty for the gearhub :d
I wonder if with this cold your in that oil thickness the viscosity is being affected and and is making the gearbox feel sluggish? But it's really a thickening of the oil freezing a little.
Nice to see you two again! I would be very curious what are you're next plans to travel, how it's going with the snow and temperatures and where you are at the moment! Best wishes and safe travels!
I'm glad that you are back on the road again. I bought pinion bike recently because of no maintenance. I hope changing flats will be as easy as regular bikes. What's your experience about it ? Thank you for great video as always.
I have a Roberts bike with Rohloff gearing and a Tout Terrain 5th Avenue with a 12 gear Pinion . Both excellent German precision engineering gearing systems, but for me, the Pinion shades it due to the weight being the bottom bracket thus making the bike balance better and with a loaded touring bike easier to ride and handle
Hi Brian, may I ask how the central position of the opinion makes it better for a loaded touring bike? I would have thought that in this case the position doesn't matter.
The weight of the Pinion gearbox being located centrally on the bike frame near the bottom bracket gives the bike a better balance thus making it easier to handle and more comfortable to ride.
Interesting. bench tests suggest that Rohloff is more efficient, yet when you ride one, it does feel a bit 'gritty' in lower gears. Love the idea of a pinion - shame it needs so much bespoke parts alongside.
Yes indeed it is. It is hard to ignore the resistance. Dunno why there is this difference but at the end of the day we are not cycling inside the lab environment right? 🙃
@@NomadsTrails If yours is a factory new Rohloff it needs some time "breaking in". The gritty feel in the seven lower gears comes from the third planetary gear that engages in those gears. It will fade away within a couple of thousand kilometers and the grinding gets replaced by a silent buzzing sound. Oh, and if you constantly ride in sub zero temperatures, have you tried replacing the standard oil with the lighter flushing oil?
A couple of things you failed to mention, with the pinion you can easily swap wheels, depending on the type of terrain you want to cover, while with the rohloff you are pretty much tied to one wheelset. Second, if you need to walk along your bike, the rohloff keeps the pedals turning, while the pinion does not.
The problem (if you will) with a pinion geared bike is that you can't add a mid-drive down the road. It's better to get a standard frame with a Rohloff Speed-hub that you can always mount a mid-drive motor on. Stay safe. - photos.app.goo.gl/ADgC6oyPM2gyrCq27
hello tout terrain - providing pinion c1.12 for touring is like giving a world motorcycle tourer an enduro motorcycle rather than an adventure tourer. Matilda and Peyman will be showcasing your bikes and will ride in such harsh conditions for months end.
If the gearbox grenades, the Rohloff will become a fixed hub and you can pedal on to the next town but I guess the Pinion will become stuck and you will have to walk.
Great to see you on the road again. Please be safe out there. Thank you for sharing your adventure with all of us. Both seem like awesome bikes. Your in our thoughts and prayers! 🙏❤🚴♂️
Great review with interesting, unexpected findings. Time will tell if that icy weather has any influence on the result. Clearly the belt drive is a winner no matter what. Anyway, good to see you guys back.
I recommend extending your front mudguards with a piece of thin plastic (a 2 litre cola bottle cut accordingly works well), it greatly reduces front-wheel muck being thrown onto the belt (or in my case the chain).
Stupid idea to use stiff plastic. Far better to use flexible old rubber boots. They have a perfect shape that always stays that way. I can ride in puddles all day and have very little splash on the frame. Lately I have also had one in front of the back wheel, it hangs lower than the chain to keep it and the BB clean. Fenders made the last 30 years are mostly cheap and pathetic.
I started using cola bottles whilst on my England to Singapore tour as easy to find, lasting for many months, I removed them when I reached south east asia as very little rain. SKS mudguards are the best, made well & strong.
You two are incredible testing and comparing in those conditions cracks me up . I'm very interested in the rohloff for e bikes I think it's the way forward
@Alasdair Hill I chose the Pinion even for an e-bike with an Alber Neodrives Z20. Those rear motors are much better for the material Gates drive! I also made bad experience with a Bosch motor which stopped working about the last 20 km before our final stop (before returning those rent bikes)! Therefore I knew no middle motor for my own e-bike! 🤔 Of course those e-bikes with middle motor are the most sold! 😇
Your gonna find with the pinion gearbox that the higher the gear the more a slight drag you will feel, this is normal. But as the oil in the box mysteriously disappears the harder it will be to pedal. I add 10cc to my pinion every 2,000km and then change oil every 10,000km. If you wait 10,000km to change oil it will be almost dry. Other than being harder to pedal there is no wear on gears due to lower oil. Also I currently have 35,000km(my brother has 42,000km on his) on my belt and it still looks almost new. My spare is still in my bag just waiting.
Thank you for your input :) i will keep an eye on the oil to see if it happens to ours also or not. can i ask you do you have P line or C line? we will publish a serious of videos over next years regarding this project, we will keep all of update with all the details 😊
Thank you 😊, as far as we are informed there is not such a weigh limit with Pinion or Rohloff. Our load is way over 110kg on each bike. Didn't have any issues 😊
@@NomadsTrails Please download and check C-line owner's manual from Pinion's homepage. At page 6 it doesn't mention total weight of bike+man+gear but rider+clothes weight only. I think that weight limit is caused by the bearings inside Pinion when a heavy rider is standing on the pedals. That can't happen to the Rohloff hub which is located in back wheel.
@@Michael-wn4jj thanks for the info, indeed i did read it twice but couldn't see what you mentioned in the C line manuel. But I am not the most patient reader for sure 😅. I will ask regarding this matter from Pinion and get back to you. Also if you don't mind please write down exactly where this is mentioned in the manual. Many thanks 😊
@@NomadsTrails pinion.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/C1_08_2018_en_WEB.pdf Page 6, Technical data , in the table sheet at the end of that page, last line: Rider weight max. ...
1:49: Surprised to hear that Pinion appears to be easier to ride/more efficient, because acc. to lab measurements Rohloff is allegedly 4% more efficient, which is a significant difference. Do you still have the same impression at higher temperatures? Any update on this (ref. 2:36)?
Indeed it is interesting. But i guess the real life conditions csn be different than lab. Regarding ur question, we will publish a second episode of this comparison in the future. We need to cycle witj both of the bikes for a while. 😊
@@Deplissee I would say you can't really go wrong with either one. I'm planning on using a Rolhoff for a hardtail Mtb. My reason for the Rolhoff is I just don't like that little play the Pinion has before it engages the rear wheel.
Here is my oPinion: Perhaps you need to go back to your vendor and ask them to provide a more comparable bike setup? The default sprocket ratio is quite different (Pinion 1.21 vs Rohloff 3.15 ) and, assuming that the wheel diameter of 2 bikes is the same (it looks like it is), you may in fact have compared an apple with an orange. One would like to have a comparable gear inches in direct drive (gear#11 in case of Rohloff, gear#5 Pinion?) to see what is the true difference in speed of the lowest / highest gear and gear increment. If your numbers (60t:19t) are correct, Rohloff's default sprocket ratio in this case is quite high for perceived wheel diameter and I am unsure how could you even go uphill under the load. You also did not mention the temperature when the hub skipped gears; Rohloff's documentation does not guarantee good performance below -14C. Lastly, if the frame is not certified for belt usage or belt tension is not proper, Rohloff hub may misperform. Kudos to both of you for testing these bikes in extreme conditions! May the vendor decide to let you keep the bikes!
Thank you!! The fact that both bikes are the same is nice but each having two completely different size cogs is going to make a big difference. This is like buying two of the same brand Mtb but one is a 32t with a 10-50 and the other is a 34t with a 11-36
Can’t wait for my new bike with the Rohloff hub.🥳 It’ll be a Riese& Müller e bike with E14. It will shift down automatically at stops. Must be great in big city traffic. Also, with the belt: no more chain cleaning, no oily pants,... how cool is that!
Lab tests show that the Rohloff hub is the most efficient available, with an average efficiency of 94.5% across all gears. The Pinion (18 gears) has a few more losses in the system so it averages out at 90.5%. I wonder if 12 gears version is different, is it something else (e.g. not identical bikes), or just your imagination (after all, Pinion costs more, so it "must be better").
Both bikes are the silk road model but their total gear setup isn't. Just look at the front and rear sprockets for each bike and you will see that the Pinion is set up with a overall easier gearing over the Rolhoff hub.
U both r an inspiration..I wish I could accompany u but I don't think so that u wil accommodate anyone in ur journey even if he has deep wish to join u
Well done to both of you for taking on this tour. Great comparison review and I look forward to seeing the future episodes. Best wishes on your trip and have a safe and enjoyable tour
Also check out the videos about this subject from the channel "cyclingabout". What are you doing in the snow? You were in The Gambia, and took a plane? You're cheating! ;)
😂, borders they were closed and after a year of waiting we decided to move on check out our vlogs for the full story th-cam.com/video/-lhR9Sh56AA/w-d-xo.html
Hello Matilda and Peyman,few question , what size wheel You have? What about 26” vs 27.5?How You feel with 2” tire , You think Will be enogh wide for traveling especially in some area?what size cog and chain ring You use on the Rolhoff?wish You all the best for all Your project 👍🙏You are Great
Hi 😊, we use 26" wheels and 2" tires. We don't feel the need of change to 27.5 or 29 "wheels. It is simply unfortunate nowadays tire manufacturers are not producing wide tires for 26" wheels. So if we change to 27.5 wheels the reason will be only because we can put wider tires on those wheels. Regarding 2" tires, we really love these tires, wide enough for most of the conditions and fast enough on the road. During winter tour has been few ocations we could have wider tires 😊
Ich denke der vermeintliche Vorteil, man könne die Rohloff in jeden Rahmen einbauen, zählt nicht wirklich. Wenn man eine Rohloff kauft, will man auch einen Riemen benutzen. Und das bedeutet, dass der Rahmen ein Rahmenschloss haben muss. Das schränkt die Liste der möglichen Rahmen signifikant ein.
@@reinhardulbricht1131 Wow! So a low of 23 gear inches and a high of 120 gear inches!!! You are likely spending a lot of time in the lower (less efficient) gears which could explain your thoughts on the Rohloff gearbox. It would be really interesting to significantly lower the belt wheel to rear cog ratio and see if you still think the same.
It's the same except for shortening the belt tension on the frame like a singlespeed. Some frames do this at the rear axle some at the pinion gearbox mount.
Thanks for the Info, I don't know how it has been calculated and under which circumstances But the reality is, in outdoor invinronement while cycling there is obvious drag in Rohloff compare to pinion. Considering Rohloff has 1400km on it so far and the temperature was below zero. Is this going to change over time or not , we will keep you updated 😊
🤣 hell no, defiantly I am not . I love those old Benz 😍
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i use a rohloff by myself, with drop bar conversion set from gebla rohbox. 7 yearsa from now without any maintanance (just suirtlube for the chain, didnt even do the recommended oil changes). for me, an absolute no brainer. It just works.
Big Thanks for the input and the first hand experience. we will test these bikes for long time and we will see how these systems will perform in a long term :)
Hi, some of you been mentioning a lab test which shows Rohloff is more efficient. Here is my opinion regarding that: I can't comment about that lab test : I am not a scientist so I can't judge any lab test. But above any kind of test for me it is the real life experience which matters at the end of the day. I am not cycling inside the Lab invironment. There can be factors efecting the performance in real life which are not calculated on the lab test. The reason sience is always keep developing, we never will have Ultimate sience. But real life and what we experience I think is the truth. But this is my humble opinion 😊
Well said!
Maybe because Rohloff is the hub, which would have a higher moment of inertia, it would requires more torque to accelerate which gives the sluggish feel. Even if at a constant speed the Rohloff delivers useful work a small amount more efficiently.
100% agree. Not being an expert on both of these drives, but being a common-sense based middle-aged person with lots of wisdom, I would never choose the Pinion. It requires a special frame. If something ever went wrong, you are screwed. The whole bike is down. With the Rohlhoff, in contrast, worst case you just throw a different wheel on the bike if you are in a jam say in a foreign country. Easy decision.
There is on average a factor 3 more belt tension with Rohloff than with Pinion, because the rear gear wheels differ that factor in number of teeth. So strange that this gets nowhere any attention? As also the whole drive train (and bicycle frame) is under 3 times more tension, this must have some implications on the efficiency? And this must also play in the lifetime of the belts?!?!? Anybody practical experience with that? PS: the efficiency comparison tests I found up to date are all executed with chains, not fully representative for the belt driven versions!!! Myself very happy driving Rohloff for 12 years already!
Theres no need for ultimate science because theres already science. opinion ≠ truth. "There can be factors efecting the performance in real life which are not calculated on the lab test" such as?
very interesting. Surprised to hear that the oil in a Rohloff needs an oil change if you take it through a river. take care paul
The Rohloff is indubitably more efficient than the pinion p1.18. If the C1.12 is more efficient that still would only mean a few percent at most as at say 100W (touring power output), where the efficiency of the Rohloff is about 93%, a single speed about 97% so the c1.12 could at best be a few percent better than the Rohloff hub, as it has to be less efficient than the single speed. Do you really feel a few percent difference when riding? Highly unlikely. Other factors including psychological factors and riding position are more likely the cause, perhaps the type of oil used in each gives a lot of friction in extremely cold temperatures (say -15C and lower). I don't feel that the Rohloff is heavy going after having ridden on my other touring bike with 3x9 derailleur. But it does make more noise, and on good roads I feel vibrations in the pedals/saddle from the hub. Such factors can influence the perception of people. The most likely cause for the bikes feeling different is that they are different in riding position. From the screenshot of the video the bike with Rohloff has the saddle more forward, with a steeper seat tube angle and a shorter virtual top tube. As most riders except some fast riders (e.g. triathlon) prefer the saddle more to the rear, this can definitely influence how you feel the bike rides compred to the bike with pinion with seemingly a longer tube tube (virtual top tube I estimate from the picture, ca. 2-3 cm more on the bike with pinion, maybe a part of this is caused from the camera angle but I estimate the difference is real), and that position will make you ride in a more aerodynamic position which is not just good for fast riging but also makes it easier to put out more power without you feeling you need to do much more effort. So, 1) how do you determine that one bike is more efficient? 2) At what temperatures did you test? 3) have you compared the riding positions and whether you like the position on one more than on another and compared with another bike with say derailleur?
Wow , you guys look so good with all the snow. amazing that you keep going through the snow.
It was only a matter of time before you guys ditched your old bikes and got the best bikes going for long distance cycle touring. These bikes are a MASSIVE upgrade to what you were riding previously which I am sure you know and why you are smiling from ear to ear. But not sure why you didn't go for the Pinion P1.18 gearboxs on both bikes as you ride fully loaded and more gears are good or did you just want to do the comparison? Belt drives are the way to go. I have one bike with Rohloff and chain with chain cover and another with Rohloff with Gates belt drive. I much prefer riding the belt drive bike as it is just so quiet and absolutely zero maintenance with the drive train, except for changing the Rohloff oil every 5,000 km. I have had 6 years and 60,000 kms of problem free cycling with my Rohloff equipped bikes. I shall never go back to derailleur bikes for cycle touring as they are just so primitive. The Rohloff hub gets a lot looser and quieter the more miles you ride it. The gear change is easy and precise and has never missed a beat on my bikes. I am well happy with it, BUT I am also interested in the Pinion Gearbox for all the reasons you give plus I like well engineered machinery and for this reason my next bike will be a Pinion gearbox bike with belt drive.
Enjoy your Tout Terrain Silk Road bikes. They are built for serious heavy duty long distance touring. This is set to be an epic comparison. Two top German hubs battling it out. It's like BMW v Porsche. I am sure you will test both gearboxes to their limits. Just keep up the oil changes.
Is it normal if I buy Tout Silk Road even I don't need one except riding in city from market to market ? I just like quality and looking and I enjoy it even from screen
@Alex Morgan I'm not sure about Tout Terrain Silk Road Pinion whether it is offered with the Pinion C1.12 and only on request you can get the Pinion P1.18? But you're right I'd always prefer the P1.18 to the C1.12 if possible. 😍(As for the gear range the P18 has 636% and the C12 "only" 600% while the Rohloff is further down at 526% - pretty impressive in favor of Pinion!)
The "normal" German car battle would be between BMW vs Mercedes! 😇
@@MusikPiratCH It's not so much the gear range but the steps between the gears that is more important. Smaller steps are preferable. Rohloff is 13.4% between gears. I think Pinion's premiium P1.18 might be less. Don't know about their C1.12 gearboxes.
Yes I made an error with my car analogy. It should be between BMW and Audi.
@@alexmorgan3435 I'm not that sure that the steps between the gears is more important than the gear range. If I chose the setup wisely with both Pinion I could have (in theory) one gear (at least) more than with the Rohloff.
It's true that the C12 has 17% between the gears while the P18 has 11.5%. Here the Rohloff has the advantage to the C12 - right. 😍
In Germany and Switzerland the German car comparision is always BMW vs Mercedes! 😇
@@MusikPiratCH Trust me the steps between gears is most important especially if your are climbing a steep ascent on a loaded touring bike. Have you done this? If you have you instantly know what I mean., Also even on the flat if you encounter a head wind or a gentle rise, you don't want a massive jump down to the next low gear as this will massively reduce your forward speed or if you remain in the same gear, then unnecessary energy expenditure to hold that gear without slowing down. The car analogy what ever. I submit to you.
Hi, very cool to see New Videos from you. Whats your reason for the pinion 12 and Not the p18?
Greetings from germany
We had very tight time table to get the bikes at the time, because of this Tout Terrain didn't have the possibility to do many changes in the bikes. so the C 12 was on the bike. But so far we ever felt we need more gears, gear range in both of the bikes has been perfect. :)
Great video. Did you stay with 26 inch wheels? Can you also easily swap out the back wheels if you had a damaged wheel?
When is the follow up coming? I have been waiting for a year now! :-)
hey guys , could you pls go over the brooks saddle on the next episode? ive got mine for around 2 months and its still super annoying.. how long did it take until yours got "normal".. ty for all the inspiration!
Stick with it. It took me longer than 2 months to get used to it. Not sure what you find annoying so hard to recommend anything specific. For me, I stopped wearing padded cycling pants, made a big difference. Now I wear loose fitting underwear and comfy shorts typically.
It's a pity that you don't make 60fps videos anymore :/
An idea for a new experiment: let's switch the rear wheels and compare Rohloff + pinion vs single speed :D
Brilliant! 😂
Hi . Hi
@@carbon12atom Eric from 'De Vakantiefietser' did this years ago as an april 1st joke with a P18 and Rohloff, claiming a new record for a 252 speed bike 😁
Rohloff has been unchanged for more then 20 years. Weight doesn’t matter if you have 50 kg on your bike
There is a weight limit to Rohloff hubs. I broke three in a row until they told me I was pushing too much weight. Switched to pinion gearbox same weight and no problems.
@@oilcanracer6388. I have 2 hubs . One is 16, the other 11 years old. My weight is 100 kg. Cycle plus luagage 50 kg. Only once a problem with shifting. Freight and repair paid by Rohloff
Its a reliable system but I was not satisfied with it. The Pinion and Bosch can be the Rohloff Killers.
@@oilcanracer6388 Sounds kind of strange because Rohloff is also used on tandem bikes, double the power on the hub. In normal push bikes they use teflon bushings, if you are to strong Rohloff changes the bushings to metal bushings only on request and placed by one of the Rohloff distributors. There is no need for replacing the hub, because the busings are kind of a safety they made into the hub for riders who seem to be to strong. When you put to much power on it, the teflon bushings wear out or break.
Rohloff places metal bushings standard in tandem bicycles.
I drove both and had several rohloff bikes and until now two 1.18 pinion bikes, all made by Santos bikes. Where Pinion lacks is on there on the field service. Rohloff even tends to send a reapair man to you when the cost of shipping the wheel to germany or a distributor is to expensive. With Pinion I already had some troubles with a leaking gearbox, got it returned after three weeks but only after a lot of phone calls. Leaked again after two weeks and got a new gearbox after a couple of months negotiating with Pinion.
Effeciency of Rohloff on internal resistance is better than Pinion. the only thing that's better by Pinion is the wider gear range. But you will need it because the Pinion bike is a lot heavier not only because of the gearbox but also because of the welding lugs and stiffer frame that is needed.
@@koenleijnen1900 tandem is different in its total power to hub not torque. Power is applied much slower. I have heard in tandem hub failures as well.
Stop mucking around....Go for a pinion and a rohloff hub....job done !!!
I change the oil on my Rohloff every 10,000 Km with no problems. Was thinking of changing to a Veer belt drive system, so thanks for the info guys...😎👍
This was a very entertaining and informative video. Do you feel that you gave up anything with the C1.12 while touring that you may have gotten from the P1.18? Keep pedaling and making great videos.
Great comparison! That's what the (bike) world was waiting for.
Cycling About mentioned that they did a lab test that showed that the Rohloff was more efficient. Interesting that your real world use has a different subjective feel. I would be curious to hear why do you guys think you have differing opinions?
Cycling About used a P18 for his comparison and Nomadstrails have the more recent C12 from Pinion. So that may be part of the explanation.
Hi, I can't comment about the lab test you mentioned above.But Just calling an information lab test it dosen't mean it an Ultimate truth. Also I am not a scientist so I can't judge any lab test, also it is important to know if the lab test has been done independentley or not. But above the all for me it is the real life experience. At the end of the day we are not cycling inside the Lab invironment. There can be factors efecting the performance in real life which are not calculated on the lab test. The reason is sience is always keep developing, we never will have Ultimate sience. But real life and what we experience I think is the truth. But this is my humble opinion 😊
in my opinion its the noise in 7 and 8 and light grind vibration from 7 down on the Rohloff that gives that feeling of drag
@@ianbing No it is not, I cycled with both, many thousand km and I disagree with you 😊. Rohloff feels less efficient.
Outstanding real life test. Agree that lab testing only provides engineer level results NOT real world results. Life Is dice roll each day real knowledge IS squeezed from each event, THIS is the most useful elixar to drink! Its intelligence....that other stuff from books is just opinions concepts ....as a cyclist on a budget if money was no obstacle and serious touring was a goal would defer to pinion. Strongly agree with another post ...
" much easier is replace drive wheel if needed.." much respect to both drive systems they are truely phonomenal!
Cheers.
So happy to see you guys on the road again! 🙌 Good idea for latest video too!
Both the Industry 9 Hydra and the Onyx sprag clutch system hubs are good. Onyx is a bit heavier but silent. Hydra does make sound, but can be quieted to near silence depending on how much grease you daub on the pawls. Both are pricey, but as mentioned help the Pinion gearbox perform better.
"feels less efficient" but according to all research, rohloff is more efficient.
Couldn't you have both on the same bike? 😮
Great comparison of the two systems, both of which are great. I was recently considering which I would get for myself and chose the Pinion with the Gates belt drive. Seems you like it better over all so maybe I made the right decision. Two important things you mentioned: apparently the Pinion is less effort to pedal, and the Rohloff needs an oil change if you submerge the rear hub. Two very important considerations that I was not aware of when I was thinking about what to get for my self. Love your videos and look forward to enjoying your adventures! :-)
Thank you 😊, indeed both are really well made systems. Hope you enjoy of your pinion 🙌
What happens if you submerge the Pinion gearbox?
I've just discovered 'Veer' non-continuous belt drives - can be retro-fitted to any bike with no frame modifications required.. belt splits to pass thru frame and is held together with rivets/pins.. don't know how it compares to Gates for longevity & reliability but it was a useful find..
I've seen them as well but some folks on forums were mentioning that they are build without the center gap. Similar to first generations of Gates belts that had problems with getting clogged with dirt, skipping and even snapping. So I am waiting for some reviews on Veer system.
this has been a topic on mind for several years, how fortunate you are on top of the vibe and pointing toward great topics and information for us. thank you.
yo, pinion does not make bikes, so list the bike you have used in this test, since bike frames are special made for pinion gear boxes.
A chainring of 60 and a cog of 19 for the Rohloff bike? That means a basis ratio bigger than 3… Except for really flat terrains, it is MUCH too big for a loaded touring bike. For this kind of bike, the recommended ratio's for a Rohloff hub are those close to 2 or slightly smaller, 42/20 or 42/22 for example (Rohloff does not support hubs set with a basis ratio smaller than 1.9).
A big ratio like the one you have chosen also means that you have to spend a lot of time using the smallest speeds (1 to 7), which are the noisiest and the least efficient of the hub (though still-slightly-more efficient than all Pinion gears according to the study alluded elsewhere).
The basis ratio chosen for the Pinion bike (39/32) makes much more sense, as it means that your lower gears are way better suited for a heavily loaded touring bike.
A great tool for gears choice: www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
That being said, I wish you the best of luck for your amazing adventures all over the world. Pinion or Rohloff are only but tools. As we say in French: l'essentiel est ailleurs, the most important is somewhere else.
Nice videos. IMO, You both need a chaincase, belt or not. Dirt, sticks, or ice will for sure bugger things where you are going. I made my case with CF and some stainless metal where it joins, tight fit. Wasn't easy to make, but it will last forever. It does have a stupidly big hole because of the alu crankarm though. So fine dust still gets in the chain.
I still haven't seen a downhill race between these two to test drag. I have compared my Rohloff to a SA XL-RD5w. The Rohloff is 3 mph slower, 43 vs 46 mph. The Rohl IS getting faster with age.
I have no problems at all with my Rohloff14 on my 120 lb heavyweight, for 17,200 miles so far. I'm 170 -185 lbs. For a front hub I have a SA XL-FDD dyno DRUM brake, that has done 26,000 flawless miles. You should as well. ZERO to fix or worry about in any weather. Only one side bearing went dry and it ate 4 balls, LOL. It is now on it's third bike, a steel roadster. I then built a new wheel the same, for on the tour bike.
I don't know how the hell you ride in cold and snow. I wouldn't last 5 minutes. 3C for 6 hours in China mountains was bad enough for me. One of those days I was riding on wet clay and needing my rain cape on. I was sweating like hell too. Not good on cold days.
Thanks a lot guys for this comparison and the insights provided. By switching the bikes and cycling side-by-side you can really make a profound judgement!
Besides, it’s so nice to see from you again after a long time. Looking forward to more winter videos!
Keep going :)
Thank you Peyman & Matilda for this very interesting video. I noticed you have Cane Creek sear posts. I’d be interested in your feedback on it: I bought the thudbuster G4 ST to go with my Brooks B17 saddle, but have issues with the horizontal adjustment of the saddle: no matter how hard I tighten the screw, the saddle always ends up tilting back and the position is therefore uncomfortable. Did you experience similar issues and how did you solve rhis ? I contacted
I own a vintage bike with a Rohloff hub, hasn't let me down so far :). I never had spontaneous shifting. The clicks are in the hub, once you have shifted gear the cables are not under tension. Maybe your shifter was a bit out of position. But I can't tell for sure - I ride with dropped bar shifters, and they work different.
Great comparison btw.! Have fun on all your trips!!!
Interesting, did you have to do much to make it fit and are you running a rubber belt?
@@noproblem2big337 Nothing in special. The classic Rohlof has got a width of 148mm, so it fits in an old frame. I run it with a chain though, since you can't open the frame for a belt.
Shifting is done with SRAM shifters combined with a Rohbox transmission at the rear axle.
About your chainring to sprocket tooth ratios (1:38 min and 1:44 min): This is really absurd for the Rohloff bike!
On the one hand, Pinion's 39 : 32 is reasonable. On 26 inch tires, with cycling speed of 88 RPM you get speeds between 7.3 km/h (1st gear) and 43.7 km//h (12th gear).
On the other hand, with your Rohloff bike's absurd 60 tooth chainring and 19 tooth sprocket, you end up, at 88 RPM, with speeds between 9.6 and 50.4 km/h. This is absurd for touring! You are missing low gears and won't need the upper gears. And what is worse: The 11th gear, which is Rohloff's best efficiency gear (1:1 ratio), gives you a speed of 34.4 km/h, which you'll hardly ever use except in short downhill passages. Also the 8th gear (the lowest of the high-efficiency-low-noise Rohloff gears) maps to a rather high 23.4 km/h, so you are likely using the noisy and lower-efficiency gears 1-7 (7th gear=20.6 km/h) most of the time.
No wonder that you had the impression Rohloff is less efficient. It was clearly due to a very unreasonable (too huge) chainring!
For a fair comparison you should've used a 46 : 19 or even better a 38 : 16 ratio on the Rohloff bike, meaning almost identical lowest 1st gear as Pinion (7.21 vs. 7.28 km/h), while gear 8 = 17.6 km/h, gear 11 = 25.9 km/h and gear 14 = 37.9 km/h (always for 88 RPM). This way you'd drive in the efficient gears 8-14 most of the time and use the best gear 11 reasonably often.
Note: For these calculation I reduce the 26 inch tire diameter by 4 mm to account for some flattening of the tire to get more practically realistic numbers (just in case someone wants to re-calculate my numbers).
A Very Good Video 👌🏻👌🏻
Glad the two of you are getting sponsered... i need to catch up on your story so far xx
I‘ve been cycling more than 30,000 km with my heavy loaded Pinion P1.18 & Gates CDX powered travel bike since 2017 and only have had twice an issue with a slightly leaking crank bearing seal, which have been fixed by Pinion within the 5 years guarantee as I came back home from my 2018 (8,800 km) and 2019 (6,000km) tours. I recommend to carry out Pinion’s “factory inspection” after basic guarantee has expired to preserve the reliability of the gearbox and obtain a 2 years follow-up guarantee.
Thank you for post and advice it is very useful.
I have 35,000km and my brother 42,000km in a few years on our pinion gearbox belt drive bikes. No problems other than needing to add oil every 2,000km to keep the gearbox from dragging in higher gears. We both still on the same belt also.
Same problem with my C1.12 with 14.000km. Anyway, the pinion and belt combination is the best I've ever tried. it will not be the most efficient, but it is clean and durable
Finally a video😍😍
Thanks for the comparo guys. Alee Denham as some lab results over on his website comparing Pinion vs Rohloff. www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/ They show Rohloff as having greater efficency, around 5%. Perhaps the efficency loss you feel is due to the very low temperatures? The Rohloff oil may become more viscous at those temperatures. Keep up the good work and the pedalling!
Most welcome, in our experience at below zero temperatures Rohloff has noticeably drag compare to Pinion. We will keep you updated when the summer comes how they perform. Dunno much about how that lab test has been done, can't comment on it 😊
It's actually split 50/50. The pinion gearbox is easier at lowest gear and harder at highest gear. Somewhat same in 5th gear.
the noise in 6th and 7th gear makes U think it is friction....I have three Rohloffs with ten yrs on one. Only changed oil. new cables once.....
@@laeljon It is unrelated to the noise in 6 and 7 since it happens in other gears also 😊
@@oilcanracer6388 FOLKs, Keep in mind, Alee is comparing the P18 and not the C12
Thank you very much..! Just the kind of review I have been hoping for. I live in a very cold and wet climate and so the test conditions answer just the kind of questions that I have. Down to what minimum temperature did you ride..? Thanks...!!
I thought the Rohloff is actually the more efficient transmission. I suspect your zero-degree riding temps are affecting the efficiency a bit.
it might be the drag difference comes not from the gearbox but from the belt setup...
I tried both as an ebike and went for the electric rohloff E14. And in germany you get a lifetime warranty for the gearhub :d
I wonder if with this cold your in that oil thickness the viscosity is being affected and and is making the gearbox feel sluggish? But it's really a thickening of the oil freezing a little.
Brilliant video. I have a Pinion P.18 and I love it!
Thanks, happy to hear that 😊
Wouldn't trigger shifters be less stressful on the wrist?
Well done, guys. Stay happy and stay safe!
Nice to see you two again! I would be very curious what are you're next plans to travel, how it's going with the snow and temperatures and where you are at the moment!
Best wishes and safe travels!
Hope Mrs. Nomad is feeling much better.
I'm glad that you are back on the road again. I bought pinion bike recently because of no maintenance. I hope changing flats will be as easy as regular bikes. What's your experience about it ? Thank you for great video as always.
Great comparison. It sounds like Pinion is the way to go for me as well. 👍🏼
Great comparison side by side; I look forward to updates. Safe riding!
Do you still stand by your conclusion today?
Yes
Happy to see you both again💖. Love you. Stay safe
Thank you, you too! ❤️
I have a Roberts bike with Rohloff gearing and a Tout Terrain 5th Avenue with a 12 gear Pinion . Both excellent German precision engineering gearing systems, but for me, the Pinion shades it due to the weight being the bottom bracket thus making the bike balance better and with a loaded touring bike easier to ride and handle
Hi Brian, may I ask how the central position of the opinion makes it better for a loaded touring bike? I would have thought that in this case the position doesn't matter.
The weight of the Pinion gearbox being located centrally on the bike frame near the bottom bracket gives the bike a better balance thus making it easier to handle and more comfortable to ride.
Interesting. bench tests suggest that Rohloff is more efficient, yet when you ride one, it does feel a bit 'gritty' in lower gears. Love the idea of a pinion - shame it needs so much bespoke parts alongside.
Yes indeed it is. It is hard to ignore the resistance. Dunno why there is this difference but at the end of the day we are not cycling inside the lab environment right? 🙃
@@NomadsTrails If yours is a factory new Rohloff it needs some time "breaking in". The gritty feel in the seven lower gears comes from the third planetary gear that engages in those gears. It will fade away within a couple of thousand kilometers and the grinding gets replaced by a silent buzzing sound.
Oh, and if you constantly ride in sub zero temperatures, have you tried replacing the standard oil with the lighter flushing oil?
Can a left side crank arm Stages Power Meter be used on a Pinion gearbox? I don’t want to use a rear hub or pedal style pm. Thank you
Wow.. what a surprise.. good to see you again..What are Ur plans..?,is ur Africa trip still on..??
Wish you a good time.
We defiantly want to go to Africa again when it is safe to travel there, but we don't know yet if we will cycle or fly there 😊
That was so interesting listening to your experience on using the both of these! thank you
Most welcome Sally 😊
A couple of things you failed to mention, with the pinion you can easily swap wheels, depending on the type of terrain you want to cover, while with the rohloff you are pretty much tied to one wheelset. Second, if you need to walk along your bike, the rohloff keeps the pedals turning, while the pinion does not.
The problem (if you will) with a pinion geared bike is that you can't add a mid-drive down the road. It's better to get a standard frame with a Rohloff Speed-hub that you can always mount a mid-drive motor on. Stay safe. - photos.app.goo.gl/ADgC6oyPM2gyrCq27
Hi, Thank you for the pictures, beautiful and fun looking bike, love it! yes indeed in this case Rohloff has the advantage😊
hello tout terrain - providing pinion c1.12 for touring is like giving a world motorcycle tourer an enduro motorcycle rather than an adventure tourer. Matilda and Peyman will be showcasing your bikes and will ride in such harsh conditions for months end.
IMO, it might be the velocity of the oil in the Rohloff.. maybe needs a thinner oil 0w -5w in cold weather..
If the gearbox grenades, the Rohloff will become a fixed hub and you can pedal on to the next town but I guess the Pinion will become stuck and you will have to walk.
Great to see you on the road again. Please be safe out there.
Thank you for sharing your adventure with all of us. Both seem like awesome bikes. Your in our thoughts and prayers! 🙏❤🚴♂️
Thanks 😊
Wow! You're back home? Colder then Africa isn't it. Are you getting new bicycles? What about the old ones?
Great review with interesting, unexpected findings. Time will tell if that icy weather has any influence on the result. Clearly the belt drive is a winner no matter what. Anyway, good to see you guys back.
Yes indeed time will answer many questions 😊
I recommend extending your front mudguards with a piece of thin plastic (a 2 litre cola bottle cut accordingly works well), it greatly reduces front-wheel muck being thrown onto the belt (or in my case the chain).
Or fit a rear mudguard on the front.
Could do, although using the longest I could find (SKS) I also extend the rear.
Stupid idea to use stiff plastic. Far better to use flexible old rubber boots. They have a perfect shape that always stays that way. I can ride in puddles all day and have very little splash on the frame. Lately I have also had one in front of the back wheel, it hangs lower than the chain to keep it and the BB clean. Fenders made the last 30 years are mostly cheap and pathetic.
I started using cola bottles whilst on my England to Singapore tour as easy to find, lasting for many months, I removed them when I reached south east asia as very little rain. SKS mudguards are the best, made well & strong.
@@vinyltheif how do u attach the plastic Mark ??
Good content as always, watching both of you always bring me joy
ONYX has Infinite engagement point so amazing
Been waiting for you two, keep safe
You two are incredible testing and comparing in those conditions cracks me up . I'm very interested in the rohloff for e bikes I think it's the way forward
E bikes are for lazy people.
@Alasdair Hill I chose the Pinion even for an e-bike with an Alber Neodrives Z20. Those rear motors are much better for the material Gates drive! I also made bad experience with a Bosch motor which stopped working about the last 20 km before our final stop (before returning those rent bikes)! Therefore I knew no middle motor for my own e-bike! 🤔
Of course those e-bikes with middle motor are the most sold! 😇
Your gonna find with the pinion gearbox that the higher the gear the more a slight drag you will feel, this is normal. But as the oil in the box mysteriously disappears the harder it will be to pedal. I add 10cc to my pinion every 2,000km and then change oil every 10,000km. If you wait 10,000km to change oil it will be almost dry. Other than being harder to pedal there is no wear on gears due to lower oil. Also I currently have 35,000km(my brother has 42,000km on his) on my belt and it still looks almost new. My spare is still in my bag just waiting.
Thank you for your input :) i will keep an eye on the oil to see if it happens to ours also or not. can i ask you do you have P line or C line? we will publish a serious of videos over next years regarding this project, we will keep all of update with all the details 😊
@@NomadsTrails I have the P18
Wow, great tour, please keep healthy!
You are fine with that but heavy or big riders should be aware of Pinion supports driver wight of max. 110 kg.
Thank you 😊, as far as we are informed there is not such a weigh limit with Pinion or Rohloff. Our load is way over 110kg on each bike. Didn't have any issues 😊
@@NomadsTrails Please download and check C-line owner's manual from Pinion's homepage. At page 6 it doesn't mention total weight of bike+man+gear but rider+clothes weight only. I think that weight limit is caused by the bearings inside Pinion when a heavy rider is standing on the pedals. That can't happen to the Rohloff hub which is located in back wheel.
@@Michael-wn4jj thanks for the info, indeed i did read it twice but couldn't see what you mentioned in the C line manuel. But I am not the most patient reader for sure 😅. I will ask regarding this matter from Pinion and get back to you. Also if you don't mind please write down exactly where this is mentioned in the manual. Many thanks 😊
@@NomadsTrails
pinion.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/C1_08_2018_en_WEB.pdf
Page 6, Technical data , in the table sheet at the end of that page, last line: Rider weight max. ...
@@Michael-wn4jj yes indeed you are totally right. I noticed it now. Good point. Thanks for pointing it out 👍
Rholoff vs Pinion?
YES, lol
1:49: Surprised to hear that Pinion appears to be easier to ride/more efficient, because acc. to lab measurements Rohloff is allegedly 4% more efficient, which is a significant difference.
Do you still have the same impression at higher temperatures? Any update on this (ref. 2:36)?
Indeed it is interesting. But i guess the real life conditions csn be different than lab. Regarding ur question, we will publish a second episode of this comparison in the future. We need to cycle witj both of the bikes for a while. 😊
@@NomadsTrails thanks, i book your channel so I won't miss out :-)
@@NomadsTrails Any update on this? I have to make a decision for a new bike and feel sitting between the chairs a bit.
@@Deplissee I would say you can't really go wrong with either one. I'm planning on using a Rolhoff for a hardtail Mtb. My reason for the Rolhoff is I just don't like that little play the Pinion has before it engages the rear wheel.
Great video!!! thank you for the info guys. safe travels!
Pinion is the future. But in Brasil is tecnology "extra terrestre".
Here is my oPinion: Perhaps you need to go back to your vendor and ask them to provide a more comparable bike setup? The default sprocket ratio is quite different (Pinion 1.21 vs Rohloff 3.15 ) and, assuming that the wheel diameter of 2 bikes is the same (it looks like it is), you may in fact have compared an apple with an orange. One would like to have a comparable gear inches in direct drive (gear#11 in case of Rohloff, gear#5 Pinion?) to see what is the true difference in speed of the lowest / highest gear and gear increment. If your numbers (60t:19t) are correct, Rohloff's default sprocket ratio in this case is quite high for perceived wheel diameter and I am unsure how could you even go uphill under the load. You also did not mention the temperature when the hub skipped gears; Rohloff's documentation does not guarantee good performance below -14C. Lastly, if the frame is not certified for belt usage or belt tension is not proper, Rohloff hub may misperform. Kudos to both of you for testing these bikes in extreme conditions! May the vendor decide to let you keep the bikes!
Thank you!! The fact that both bikes are the same is nice but each having two completely different size cogs is going to make a big difference. This is like buying two of the same brand Mtb but one is a 32t with a 10-50 and the other is a 34t with a 11-36
хочу посмотреть как поедет в гору 10% интересно?
wow, you both are already in Arctic Zone. Good luck, have a wonderful Bike Touring.
Can’t wait for my new bike with the Rohloff hub.🥳
It’ll be a Riese& Müller e bike with E14. It will shift down automatically at stops.
Must be great in big city traffic.
Also, with the belt: no more chain cleaning, no oily pants,... how cool is that!
I have to superdelite with Rohloff. Its an amazing bike: high quality components, maintenance free, comfortable and efficient.
Lab tests show that the Rohloff hub is the most efficient available, with an average efficiency of 94.5% across all gears. The Pinion (18 gears) has a few more losses in the system so it averages out at 90.5%. I wonder if 12 gears version is different, is it something else (e.g. not identical bikes), or just your imagination (after all, Pinion costs more, so it "must be better").
Both bikes are the silk road model but their total gear setup isn't. Just look at the front and rear sprockets for each bike and you will see that the Pinion is set up with a overall easier gearing over the Rolhoff hub.
Brilliant, if anyone can test them it's you two .
U both r an inspiration..I wish I could accompany u but I don't think so that u wil accommodate anyone in ur journey even if he has deep wish to join u
Can you please give us a follow up, that would be great! Stay save on all your travels!
Sure, it is on my list and I will 😊
pls upload more videos ... we were waiting for ong time snow cycle vlogd
I will try my best :)
Keep it simple, stupid. The chain is still the best system overall.
Very good choice, don’t forget to use the oil from the hub manufacturer rohloff to drain, otherwise you lose the guarantis
Wonderful explanation on the two systems via empherical data.
Well done to both of you for taking on this tour. Great comparison review and I look forward to seeing the future episodes. Best wishes on your trip and have a safe and enjoyable tour
Also check out the videos about this subject from the channel "cyclingabout".
What are you doing in the snow? You were in The Gambia, and took a plane? You're cheating! ;)
😂, borders they were closed and after a year of waiting we decided to move on check out our vlogs for the full story th-cam.com/video/-lhR9Sh56AA/w-d-xo.html
Hello Matilda and Peyman,few question , what size wheel You have? What about 26” vs 27.5?How You feel with 2” tire , You think Will be enogh wide for traveling especially in some area?what size cog and chain ring You use on the Rolhoff?wish You all the best for all Your project 👍🙏You are Great
Hi 😊, we use 26" wheels and 2" tires. We don't feel the need of change to 27.5 or 29 "wheels. It is simply unfortunate nowadays tire manufacturers are not producing wide tires for 26" wheels. So if we change to 27.5 wheels the reason will be only because we can put wider tires on those wheels. Regarding 2" tires, we really love these tires, wide enough for most of the conditions and fast enough on the road. During winter tour has been few ocations we could have wider tires 😊
Ich denke der vermeintliche Vorteil, man könne die Rohloff in jeden Rahmen einbauen, zählt nicht wirklich. Wenn man eine Rohloff kauft, will man auch einen Riemen benutzen. Und das bedeutet, dass der Rahmen ein Rahmenschloss haben muss. Das schränkt die Liste der möglichen Rahmen signifikant ein.
Ahhhh, eu estava torcendo pelo Rohloff... Mas minha grana não pode comprar nenhum deles. kakaka
Next video should be gear loadout.
1:40 You have a 60 teeth front cog and 19 rear cog on the rohloff. Did I hear correctly? Thank you for sharing your experience!
I was wondering about that too. Seems like quite high gearing for a fully loaded touring bike on rough terrain!
@@davidsharp5370 with their wheels/tyres this results in distance per full pedal circle from 1,84m ( could be better) to 9,61m (may be never used...)
@@reinhardulbricht1131 Wow! So a low of 23 gear inches and a high of 120 gear inches!!! You are likely spending a lot of time in the lower (less efficient) gears which could explain your thoughts on the Rohloff gearbox. It would be really interesting to significantly lower the belt wheel to rear cog ratio and see if you still think the same.
Hello, I have a Cuestion, how do You Mount the other two litle paniers un the Jack of Tha bicycle..???
Hi, if you means those small pockets? those come with the mount already :)
Would you buy such a bike yourself or stick to the ones you put together in the beginning?
How difficult is it for you to change an inner tube at the rear wheel?
It's the same except for shortening the belt tension on the frame like a singlespeed. Some frames do this at the rear axle some at the pinion gearbox mount.
thank you for the answer 😊
The best drive train is one you can repair on the way.
Despite MORE gears, it has been calculated that Rolhoff is ~ 95% efficient, while Pinion is ~ (90-92)%.
Thanks for the Info, I don't know how it has been calculated and under which circumstances But the reality is, in outdoor invinronement while cycling there is obvious drag in Rohloff compare to pinion. Considering Rohloff has 1400km on it so far and the temperature was below zero. Is this going to change over time or not , we will keep you updated 😊
Hey, are you dissin' my '84 Benz 240d??? :)
Thanks for this: I'm going to be looking seriously into a Pinion equipped bike.
🤣 hell no, defiantly I am not . I love those old Benz 😍
i use a rohloff by myself, with drop bar conversion set from gebla rohbox. 7 yearsa from now without any maintanance (just suirtlube for the chain, didnt even do the recommended oil changes). for me, an absolute no brainer. It just works.
Big Thanks for the input and the first hand experience. we will test these bikes for long time and we will see how these systems will perform in a long term :)