I've covered everything I know about belt drive in this video! Here are some gearboxes you can now pair with belts: 🍒 $199 Shimano Alfine hub video: th-cam.com/video/qf9tFJFXV5o/w-d-xo.html 🍑 Rohloff Hub vs Pinion Gearbox video: th-cam.com/video/W_hx4V9mYuw/w-d-xo.html 🍌 Effigear Gearbox video: th-cam.com/video/F08bDBK7U7A/w-d-xo.html 🍍New Gearbox Drivetrains for 2023 video: th-cam.com/video/pyeMBKJLtWI/w-d-xo.html
I'm a mechanical engineer that designs engines. Belts are useful for all sorts of stuff, but chain drives have their place. Almost all the disadvantages of conventional roller chains are obviated by using O-ring or X-ring chains, whilst retaining basically all of the upsides. Roller chains last so much longer in cars because they are inside the engine, bathed in clean lubricating oil, and sealed from the outside.
But I have yet to come across any bicycle drivetraibs that use roller chains that have orings in them, I am very jealous of motorcycle chains being internally sealed like that
I think a lot of us would happily use belts (I certainly would) it's just that gearboxes are jolly expensive, and rare for frame integration (and heavy for people who care about that) My entire microshift clutch drivetrain (shifter, cassette, derailleur, chain), was £80 on sale, ya can't really beat that until gearboxes become mainstream
I know a lot of people who buy expensive bikes , so 8k and more. No one got the pinion because the frames way to much limited and no one of them likes to shift with the twist shifter. Pinions still shift with that. The electronic shifter is only for ebikes , for now. I would buy a MTB enduro frame with that drive train and gates. Same stuff here, not a frame available that got the right numbers for the geometry and rear wheel travel. I would go custom, still same stuff. Not available for the numbers I like. Keep in mind I have only 1,8k FS frame and my drive train currently would cost 720 + 300 for the crank. I would pay without hesitation 6 k only for the frame+pinion/effigear.
microshift is great. and replacing a chain once a year +other parts would amount to the price of gearbox and new wheel and chainset over a lifetime. still its cool id get one if i had the chnage like you said.
I had a nexus chain on a cargo bike for more than 20 000km and it was under 0.5% of wear. Lubed once. The secret ingredient is full chaincase that prevent anything to touch the chain. That decrease the incentive to use a belt on any bike that can fit a case for the chain.
That is genius! Where did you get your chain case? I'm not sure I've ever seen one, but I've also never really looked for them. That would solve the concern of needing a frame with a split rear triangle. Couple questions about your use: did the 20k kms involve rain, snow, road salt, sand, or other adverse conditions, and did there seem to be any wear on the cog and chainring after that of use?
@@mitmon_8538 It came with the bike so I can't point you to where to get one. I'm using it every day on road, in every conditions, so it did get rain, snow a lot. But I rarely ride it on sand or mud (it's a cargo bike with a 20" front wheel so I tent to avoid it if I can). The nexus Cog was as new but there were some wear starting to show on the chainring. It's only minor so I kept the parts in case of emergency. I only swapped the drivetrain because I had to repair the hub and I bought the parts before disassembling them, But if I had checked the wear before buying, and if I didn't have to disassemble the hub anyway, I probably would have kept them a few thousands km more. I also double checked My chain wear measurements because I was surprised it could last that long (a 8€ chain and 3€ cog with a 20€ crankset... that's unbelievable for the money) I can't post links on YT but I found a case that's called "Hesling Excelle full chainguard " that's look nearly exactly as the one I own.
@@jowjor thanks for the detailed reply. I'm happy with my 2 belt drives bikes, one with and IGH and another with a Pinion, so I probably won't need to look into this anytime soon. But this is great info for people who want to get into internal gearing as cheap as possible.
@@mitmon_8538 Gazelle and Batavus make good full case bikes with Shimano Nexus 8 (almost same as alfine 8) have ridden one for 6 years 30.000 km before it broke (never did any maintenance)
Had belts on Rohloffs and Pinion since 2012 and would not go back. If you are wanting a reliable and straight forward method of getting from A to B with zero fuss you can’t beat gearboxes and belts. Marketing makes people think they need the same technology as used in races when in reality they need something that will just work. Even more relevant in this day and age we need less throw away parts and parts that are going to last. Thank you for another factually correct and unbiased video.
I don't doubt a Rohloff hub will still be going on it's 28th birthday (planetary gears in other applications easily do that. There are plenty of tractors and cars older than that with planetary gears that still work with way more mileage than any single bycicle will ever reach) And while i like the idea of belt driven bycicles and less things being trown away, i think something to consider is that the materials a chain consists off are 100% recyclable while the materials a belt consists of, not so much.
@Pin Ky You seem very quick with superficially judging others and with clicking the submit/answere button (or whatever the button displays in your language of YT use.) You could have also taken your time and thought about what i wrote and put your answere in one comment. 1) i never claimed to own a rohloff hub (or any other such gearbox for bicycles). I just commented on how these kind of gearboxes last in other applications and thus my conclusion of how it would last in this aplication. 2) we seem to have a different understanding of recycling. Recycling to me, means the material of an item itself can be reshaped and repurposed into a new product several times.Making a makeshift jumping rope that barely works is not the same as being able to melt the metal of a chain and gaining new war material through that. A perfect example of what i consider recycling, are current lead acid car batteries: After their "life" they can 100% be recycled. The acid gets reconditioned, the lead gets cleaned of the sulferings (which are put back into the acid), melted and remolded into new elextrodes and the plastic of the casing gets shredded into small peaces, cleaned and used as granulate for injection molding new battery cases.
@Pin Ky Well done for not replacing it. I too run derailleurs with friction shifting as you can mix and match parts. The way modern standards limit your choice is a problem. But yeh it probably will be around. People have their hub gears for hundreds of thousands of miles. So should be good for decades without as much maintenance.
Your first video was enough to convince me to design an ebike for Canadian cities based around the belt drive Our company is a year and a half old now and selling bikes like crazy Thank you for your in-depth sharing. The belt-driven ebike is such an amazing transportation tool that you never have to think about
I have been riding for more than 6 months now from New York to El Salvador with a Cube belt drive I bought last summer and I didn't have a problem at all. So easy to maintenance.
After I disassembled, cleaned and regreased Nexus8 hub with Shimano IGH specific lube and adjusted hub cones I was astonished how small hub drag now is and how much more enjoyable bike became. Pity is that bike companies charging $$$ for their products rarely care to fine tune bikes and just charge like for a set of parts they put together.
Skip the IGH lube. Even Shimano themselves no longer recommend the grease originally used in Nexus hubs, suggesting instead to use a liquid oil that you dip the hub internals into and then allow to thoroughly drip-out before reinstalling. Lots of ham-fisted knuckle-draggers will recommend using ATF (or worse, Marvel Mystery Oil) because they think it's magical, but I use a bottle of Redline 75w140 GL5 gearbox oil because it actually has the correct lubricant properties for highly-loaded IGH internals. It's very slick but also formulated to be non-slip, so the one-way bearings will work properly. Great stuff.
@@deusexaethera Trust me, I ate my nails trying to figure out which route to go! I were a bit skeptical about ATF or GB oil as I didn't want to deal with possible oil leaks. Black IGH lube is much thinner than I expected so I decided to give it a try. Years ago I did see how looks hardened up white IGH grease in 3sp hub and black is much much more thin. Don't you have oil leaks from gear box stuff? P.S. I know very well why Shimano recommends oil bath - it's a PITA to put back sun gears properly. I didn't pay enough attention and got back only 4 gears, after positioning sun gears correctly all gears came back. Not a job for average Joe who can't finish 3min video on TH-cam because it's too long. Oil dip is much safer for customer and Shimano as a brand because people just don't end up with a pile of parts they can't put together into working mechanism. Frankly, next time I wouldn't want to deal with full tear down, too)
@@event4216 : It's not because Shimano doesn't want the liability of users disassembling their own hubs to regrease them, it's because liquid oil reflows around moving parts and grease doesn't. The new Alfine hubs use liquid oil for the same reason, and Rohloff hubs have always used liquid oil. Shimano thought grease would be good enough, so they could skip having proper oil seals, but they learned the hard way that grease wasn't good enough. Unlike hub bearings, gearboxes have too much open space that grease can get squished into and never return to circulation. Liquid oil doesn't have that problem. If you let the liquid oil drip out thoroughly, so there's just a thin coating on all the moving parts, there are no oil leaks to speak of even in a not-fully-sealed Nexus hub. The internals don't experience enough centrifugal force at sane riding speeds for the oil to be flung off, especially not GL5 gearbox oil which has polar molecules and sticks to metal even better than older oils.
@@deusexaethera Next time I'll try GB oil. Thanks! Where were you when I researched this before? As much as I like IGH there's no way I'm going to buy Shimano oil kit which is OK for bike shop specializing in hub service. As a home user I like simpler hack and Nexus isn't a mech I'd be worried to ruin opposite to Rohloff or Pinion.
@@deusexaethera Now I remember reading about oil leaks after using ATF and hated idea I'd have it anywhere near belt. What's your experience with leaks?
i switched all my bikes to belts after watching a couple of your vids last couple of years.. and i don't regret my switch.. it's not that i mind maintenance of my bike but good maintenance takes a lot of time. way more then most people do when they talk about maintenance. Thanks for all your vids. Greating from The Netherlands.
I agree, as i have been working in a Flourmill plant for 29 years and we are using High tension drive belt in running our Rollermill machines. Our belt supplier is Gates. This time now I'm a biker and here in Philippines i have not yet saw a belt drive bike and hope i can get through how to change into a belt drive on my bike.
I have been following your channel for a while now. You have helped me so much on my tours and really dialing in my build and kit. I have finally ordered all the parts for my belt drive bike. A Bombtrack Outlaw frame, son dyno, Rohloff a12, and much more. I have an old priority bike and I love it. It, along with your videos, sold me on a belt and I cant get over the sound of a chain/derailleur grind now. Thanks for all your videos and hard work brother.
@@Posturehelper Not a dime. I also tour on my bike and his channel actually goes into the deep nerdy stuff I love with the experience to back it up. Having tried a belt with an old priority and having seen his multiple videos on the subject I decided to make it a real build for me. He also broke down the major differences between the Rohloff and shimano alfine 11 internally geared hubs in another video and its something I have been really debating on myself as to the fine detailed differences of both of these very popular hubs. Idk what makes these comments weird, but appreciating the immense time and effort he puts into making all these videos with graphs, data points, nuance differences, ect, doesn't mean its paid. The guy simple does an amazing job and he's helped me out by answering a lot of my questions.
Here in Belgium I just got my first belt drive bike, a Bullitt cargo bike, and now whatever my next normal bike will be, it's gonna be belt drive. With daily commuting and crap Belgian weather, chains are basically permanently dirty or crunchy so I assume at least in the winter, a belt drive will actually end up more efficient for me. Most people don't like doing maintenance either so I see *a lot* of bikes with horrible rusty crunchy chains. I now exclusively recommend disc brake belt drive bikes when someone is talking about buying a new daily commuting bike, especially if it's an e-bike. I honestly don''t really know why expensive chain drive e-bikes even exist anymore.
For mid drives, the difference is efficiency and sudden failures. When battery powered, it matters quite a bit more, and when they fail, fixing them is an absolute pain. IMO, the best compromise is a waxed chain with a partial/full chain guard. The difference is insane.
I drive belts since 6 years as commuter and just love them. You even showed one of it in your video, the Schindelhauer Emil. Belts are elegant, silent, clean and low maintenance.
Thanks for such a great comprehensive video. Recently bought a Priority 600X with Pinion belt drive. Love the technology and can't wait to take it on a few long distance tours this summer. No chain lube and the mess it creates is something I'm looking forward to. Thanks again, Steve
How have you found the belt after owning the bike for a decent amount of time? Easy to maintain compared to as chain? Intrigued to know the difference!
@@Richy91 No problems at all. Very simple and easy to maintain. Smooth and quiet shifting. I've got about 3000 miles on the bike and the belt shows no sign of wear.
I wish I have been able to get 10,000km on a belt. I'm on my 3rd belt now due to two belt failures at around 5,000km or less. The belt didn't snap like Ryan Van Duzer's, but the teeth would start to show cracking at the base of the teeth. I tried managing the tension a bit closer, but found that the cogs themselves had gotten so worn that I needed to replace those. The teeth were getting very sharp and I had a rear cog where some of the teeth had completely worn out. I've since upgraded to stainless, so we'll see how that goes. Either way, I will religiously keep a spare belt on any bikepacking trip as the first failure outside of cell service and 30km of singletrack away from the nearest town.
Das ist nicht der Riemen an sich. Der Gesamte Antrieb stimmt da bei dir nicht bzw. irgend etwas daran eben. Der riemen muss ja absolut in flucht sein, das fahrrad lässt das aber manchmal nicht zu weil der rahmen eben nicht 100% steif ist, er bewegt(Verzug) sich und dadurch stimmt die flucht des riemens nicht. las das überprüfen bei einem Profi bevor du ständig riemen kaufen musst oder die Antriebsteile tauscht ohne das es am ende was bringt. Riemen sind gut aber eben nicht für alle fälle besser. eine kette an einer nabe macht solche probleme nicht!
I bought a riese&muller ebike with a gates carbon belt drive and an enviolo internal gear hub and I'm never going back to chains and derailleurs again. for my application which is about a 12k ride to and from work in rain,sleet snow and all sorts not having to do any maintenance on the bike outside of changing brake pads once in a while has been a dream come true.
Yes, with no maintanace the bike will be finished after 5 years! Why be so leasy on a so expensive bike? It takes 5-10 min a week to keep the bike clean. People take care about there cars because they are expensive. A e-bike from riese and Müller is easy about 6000€. Thats a lot of money for a bike.
@@amafi_poe But thats not necessery on a chain with single speed or a gearhub too. I got a chain on my rohloff hub. maybe onetime a month i clean the chain for 3 minutes. And at the end the chain is much much chaeper at a life time of a bike and its more effective to come forward.
When I was in Japan in the late 90s, many of the commuter 'mamachari' bicycles had belts. I thought they were so cool. No maintenance. You can leave your bike outside in the rain at the train station and not worry about your chair rusting up.
I bought a Priority Classic Plus Gotham on their first year of release. (7:26) I rode it a few months, life got hectic, it sat for nearly 1 1/2 years... Went out to it yesterday, pumped the tires up, water wiped down the entire bike to get rid of dust, checked cable adjustments and went off for a short, nearly two mile ride. No chain, no mess, no fuss. Thoroughly impressed. Inspected the belt prior to the ride and saw nothing at all wrong with the belt. Personally like how you fine tune belts - harmonically 🙂So musical Gates is with their app.
When buying a new bike, the price upgrade to belt drive is usually just $100 or so! In some instances, it's a bit more but you get a hub upgrade too (eg. 7-speed to 8-speed hub). 👍🏻
Plus, without derailer, you can use a chain cover (it's just a marked-up plastic electric wire holder) which holds in the grease and makes your chain last forever.
Love it for trail and enduro MTB!! Shifted to Gates belt + Pinion gearbox after 28 years of chains. Faster on the downhill, not noticable slower on the uphill.
That’s fair. Shimano Di2 shifters are probably the nicest option available currently, but only for Alfine. Given the new Pinion and Rohloff electronic trigger shifters coming through on e-bikes, I don’t think we’re too far away from some drop bar levers too!
"Besides the price, one of my gripes personally..." So, The idea of needing to buy buy a *replacement frame* with a cut in the frame to accommodate the techno-belt didn't put you off?🤷
Great expert subject matter narrative unpacking pros and cons of belt drive bicycles along with all the do’s and don’ts. Although I have personally never owned or ridden a belt drive bicycle, I’m a loyal chain driven cyclist because all the lifelong memories. It seems me “all-in” belt drive comes at a premium because the entire bicycle is basically designed around the belt, it’s certainly highly and best suited for world touring adventures, I most certainly couldn’t see doing that type of cycling using a chain. Thank you for another wonderful informative video ! ❤😊
I'm currently at 38,000 K on my Co-Motion Americano rohlof with original belt CDX. The Chain ring is starting to get "sharp teeth" the rear sprocket is showing almost no wear. I do keep the tension lower than recommended by Gates as I have found that recommended tension is not needed. I carry a spare belt just in case as its pretty light and gives peace of mind. The only issue i have had is occasional squeaky noise after riding in dry dust conditions. Road up the Dempster and ITH to Tuktoyaktuk last summer including two days with rain which In my opinion is a proper test. The belt did fine...the shifter cables....well they got progressively harder to shift as the grit built up. Thanks for your videos.
I would like to expand on the automotive belts v. Chain. Chains are in a sealed environment and continuously lubricated. Belts are often covered and not completely sealed.
As a mechanical engineer, I'm very familiar with the advice at 17:54 to avoid backbending of (most) timing belts, since it shortens life. This doesn't just apply to loose belts; it also means that we try to avoid tensioners which bend the belt the "wrong" way. However, it seems that bicycle belt drives often include such tensioners, such as those shown at 2:19, 3:52 and even what appears to be Gates own promo material at 13:24. I checked Gates' Technical Manual, expecting to find a minimum allowable radius for backbend-inducing idler pulley, probably calculated according to belt model, expected load and riding conditions, but here is the whole of the section on "Tensioner & Idler Integration": "Gates Carbon Drive has been working with bicycle manufacturers to properly design and implement idlers into some specific applications. For each application, thorough testing of the drive is completed, and certain parameters need to be met prior to releasing the bike to the market. Our belt handling instructions must still be followed, as backbending belts by hand could cause damage. Idlers that follow our design requirements do not cause belt failures. All idler designs require approval by Gates Carbon Drive engineering team." That's it!
My previous full metal bike was a gazelle. I got this bike when I was 13 yo and 40 years later I bought a new Gazelle (alluminum one). In the 40 years I never changed the chain and never did any maintenance on the bike other than tire/tube changes when needed, while using it for most of the ~30 years on a daily basis (the brakes were not very good anymore at the end). My current alluminum Gazelle bike, I still didn't replace the chain after 9 years but more maintenance is needed on the alluminum parts.
Alee is a star at these videos and his adventures do inspire. I have been trying to get folks I know to try 15,000 steps never mind 15,000km or 150,000km in Alee and Laura’s case.
I had a bike shop for 25 Years. My experiences: Belt drives on bicycles have increased frictional resistance. I was shocked when I tried out 2 very expensive bikes in the bike store and thought the drive of the bikes was faulty, the belt had such high resistance. When you turned the cranks, they stopped immediately. I also want a very light bike and love derailleur gears. If you change the chain when it's only half worn out, you can ride 10,000 km with the same sprockets and have very low follow-up costs compared to the belt drive and get spare parts all over the world, don't need a special frame and don't have higher friction in the hub. In cars or motorcycles, the increased resistance does not come into play as much because of the engine. Thanks.
I've used a Gates CDX belt drive paired with a Shimano Alfine on an urban bike as a commuter bike for a couple of years. While I generally enjoyed the low maintenence aspect, in the end the belt as well as the plastic rear sprocket has worn out after about 20000 km. And the repair was pretty pricey. On the other hand I've had Campagnolo chains on my road bikes which lasted some 15000 km. You obviously have much more experience with belts than I do but from my anectdotal experience the cost per km wasn't lower with my Gates CDX belt than with a good chain. There is still the benefit of having less maintenance work to do with a belt. But for me personally, being a fast rider ultimately the urban bike was too slow and I bought a gravel bike as a commuter and I am much happier with it.
15000 km with a chain is for me absolutely impossible. I dont know what I am doing. But even the Eagle chains dont last that long and on my commuter I also snap chains. For my MTB it is clear why I cant have that long chain life because they get damaged by objects on the trail or jump of grears in really rough terrain when the chainguard fails also. Most chains I have will die after 3-4k EVEN with a chainswap @ 1k and 2k
@@Vanadium Roadies who ride in fair weather can get much longer chain life than MTBrs who put bike through rough trails. Much bigger mechanical stressing chain + dirt, sand, water, stones, sticks = faster wear.
@@Vanadium I'm struggling to believe that he managed to get 15000km out of a modern 10/11/12x drivetrain chain without exceeding wear limits and messing up cassette and chain rings. So either he knows something nobody else does or he's just a fantasist.
@@event4216 true but I cant even get close to 5k for my commuter. This is mostly ridden on paved roads with some gravel in between. Ofc salt and snow will say hello once a while...
the internal hub shifters are like 300-900 dollars each the Pinion Gearbox at the pedal is north of one grand so unless you intend to use a single speed bike you have to add that cost to the drive train
My belt bike died after only 4 years of city riding. Back sprocket cracked and lost a tooth leading to a belt failure very quickly after the rear sprocket broke. While I continue to be a fan of the Gates Belt Drive due to lower maintenance effort, it is a fact that it is more expensive and less mechanically efficient than chain in the long run. Advantages come at a higher price.
got an almost 30 year old chain that has never been replaced n has suffered tons of cold rainy nights outside cuz of my dumbass. fuck belts bro dont even use em on motorcycles, less efficient power delivery no ty. Last time i put any grease on this chain was like 13 years ago and it was the cheapest crap u could find from YEARS ago if not almost a decade.
I still prefer a timing belt over a chain. It's easy to replace a bad timing belt. It's a pain in the ass to do the chain, which is usually integrated into the engine to share lubrication with the cylinders. This also means as the chain wears, its metal affects the cylinders and as the cylinders wear, their metal affects the chain. Most of it is handled by the filter, but still, a lot of grinding metal. Additionally, that's why it lasts "longer" than a timing belt. The belt in an automobile is exposed, or just barely covered, much like a bicycle. A timing chain is hidden away in the engine and drenched in oil. On a bicycle, the chain is exposed and only dry lubed, so it's definitely not going to last as long as a timing chain dripping in lubricant and protected by a filter.
Had a conti belt on my commuter bike. It was pretty noisy, requiring regular cleaning and silicone spray to stay quiet, though I gather the noise was just annoying, not actually affecting anything. Then one day while accelerating from standstill it just snapped in two. Unsurprisingly I changed to a chain. But I'm sure I was just unlucky, and that Gates belts would be better, surely nobody would use them otherwise 😅
I work in the logistics section of a local bike shop. We use cargobikes with inernal gear hubs and belt drive systems, specifically urban arrow and riese&müller bikes. Ive seen suspensions and even frames bend or break before their belts broke.
Indeed, a number of manufacturers now have frames that put the chainstay up higher, to allow the belt to run outside the frame so that the frame doesn't need to split. The frame still needs to be designed specifically to support the belt drive, but it at least removes one structural issue that used to limit adoption of belt drive.
I also have never had anyone cut my belt, but curious people love to grab it and twist it around sideways. This has never directly lead to breaking a belt but possibly could have contributed to a short lifespan for it, as the manual specifically advises against it.
Pushing on or twisting the belt with their hand is no big deal (I worked in R&D for a belt company and actually designed an application of belts like this where the belt was twisted in two places.)
The only issue with people grabbing and twisting your belt, is that people are grabbing and twisting your belt! Some people, man! I'd never have the urge to touch someone else's bike, unless I knew them and asked first.
I have 10,000+ miles on a belt drive single speed the 'ace of spades' geared 55/19 or 2.89. It doesn't have the gearbox issue so I'm pretty sure it's just as efficient and fast as a chain drivetrain. I do 20+mph average rides, and can hit 22 or 23mph on a flat. IMO if you live in a really flat area, a belt-drive single speed is kind of a perfect bike.
i have a commuter with a pinion c-line. i love it- no mess, and nearly no maintenance. also, i do not have a split in my rear triangle (priority bike), i just drop the tyre. i have hit 23 mph (37kmh) for one of my mile splits commuting to work on level ground, they can be quick if you pedal. the belt drive does not care if it rains, and with a pinion i have peace of mind submerging the gearbox while following my crazy son on his 'this will be epic' adventures.
i am used to a "well balanced" front and rear gear option, front 3, but i only use two, and the rear full spectrum, so if they will make a version of this, with a front two step gearbox and rear 7-9 step eqvivalent numbers of ratios, and it wont cost absurdly more, then i will jump over to this..
And you get a belt failure, or transmision problem. In the middle of nowhere. Shops 200 km around you doesnt fix it, dont have parts. Your bike is not moving at all. Good luck to your long travel adventure...
@@szaka9395 thats why you have to be flexible when travelling. If that happened i would probably hitchike or take public transport until the nearest place that can fix it and then resume cycling. Considering the durability and reliabilty of these belt systems, i assume such an event will only happen rarely
I used to work in R&D for a company that makes these kind of belts, and I rode a concept bike 20 years ago... I can confirm that the drivetrain feels WAY smoother than a chained bike. The one I rode had zero perceptible drivetrain slack/play when starting to apply pressure on the petals. You might not really think about this without experiencing a belt drive, but there is significant amount of it with a chain. That part is great but personally I've never considered building a belt bike myself. I'd only use it for a single speed. But a chain works fine and is cheaper. So.. IMO it's only worth it if the reduction in drivetrain slack is extremely important to you, and you don't mind spending more just to have a bike that's different.
Chains on cars and motorcycles are usually used in applications that are sealed from elements (e.g. camshaft timing chain) and therefore also can have their lubrication happen in isolation of the elements. This is their "optimal operating conditions", hence why they perform and last longer than belts. On bikes however chains are subject to the elements, which is where belts operate better because the elements mess up the lubrication over time and require more maintenance than belts.
@@abitofaviation true but not as exposed as bicycles. They are somewhat covered and relatively more protected vs bikes. Besides, motorcycles don't have derailleurs and rely on gearboxes, which removes a lot of complexity on the chain
The lubrication is the easiest part of the task. The cleaning is the more labor intensive one. All in all it's all relative. I mean we are talking 20 mins total cleaning, changing liquid of the cleaning tools, scrubbing and lubing. So it's all not "Labor intensive", only relatively
Chain efficiency itself is complicated. Have you looked up Zero Friction Cycling's chain lube and wax test data? Some of the modern products are so efficient that they broke the test protocol and resulted in infinite longevity. Waxed chains are also clean (no black muck etc).
Compliments - Great video. Thank you for the detailed description of the belt drive down to the depths of belt technology. I would be happy to link your video to interested customers.
I'm not even a cyclist. I just watched it all as I'm interested in technology and engineering. I can certainly envision belts becoming more commonplace in the future, especially with newer technologies like high entropy steels on the horizon. Maybe I'll even find my next motorbike to have a belt.
As someone who rides motorcycles STUPID long distances, And is pretty regular about chain lubing. [once a day after about 8 hours of riding] And uses X-ring chains. I can only get about 16k miles out of name brand chain before it's making crunchy noises. I Just think the forces acted on the belt drive systems, causes a lot more stretch. due to the forces of high speeds, and rotation of the swing arms. Zero owners [the motorcycle brand] often complain about belts just yeeting off. and in sandy conditions not lasting very long either, Harley guys who've had OEM belts for the last idk 20 or so years now.. Run into the same issue of sand killing the life of the belt. For distance riding/quiet operation/low maintenance motorcycle final drive components. you're going to be looking at Shaft drive.. [and lots of bikes are made/have been made with such tech] The downside to shaft drive is the higher rotational mass- and a pretty nasty efficiency hit.
@@johnwalker7592 The shaft drive has a LOT of downsides, not just rotational inertia and efficiency. That's why it's pretty much exclusively seen in bikes made to tour third world countries where the incredible reliability is worth all the extreme drawbacks. I wouldn't want to be there with a problems with my chain or sprocket, the latter also being a potential problem. But in the performance bike application where I sit the mass will cause issues with suspension, and generally mass itself is a problem. Then as mentioned efficiency, other bikes will care more about fuel economy whilst mine will care about power. The space taken will pose issues with a swingarm and packaging the exhaust. The list goes on. So that's ruled out completely. Belt drive really depends on the application more than anything else. Again in my performance bike market there's issues with shock loading and strength, especially on the teeth. The width will cause problems. It's just a long way off. For non-performance bikes it really depends on how you use it. Swingarm rotation isn't an issue as modern swingarms already design that problem out. And if needed they don't need a direct route either as the video demonstrates. Stretching is a different case and it sounds like the problem is more use case specific. A well made belt shouldn't be stretching as the composites used have negligible stretch at all. So either they're using steel cables (bad) or they're breaking the composite reinforcement from the sheer powers involved. It sounds like the Harley OEM cables don't have that problem as they're almost certainly fitted well to the use case of the forces involved. But sand is always going to cause massive issues on a belt. Overall I'd suggest a belt is likely the future in most cases, but it's also largely beyond the technology of most cases today. We need to better deal with the forces of the majority of bikes, often in excess of 120hp, and likely need to tweak sprocket sizes to help (which also demands an entirely different frame geometry). Still the benefits likely outweigh the drawbacks outside of performance and dirt bikes. I still don't want to change, though. I like biking where it is today.
The Dutch used to build cars with belt drives. I used to drive on of them. I loved it. The two rear wheels were driven separately . Safer and smoother. The car was called Daffodil.
I wonder that downside of bike shops not having them would apply for my situation here in the Netherlands. My recent purchase has a belt drive with an automatic enviolo gear hub thingy, but if I'd have to guess about 10-20% of the bicycles they had in the store for sale were equipped with a belt. But the focus on bicycle sales here is typically less focused on sport activities and more on practical everyday activities. The ones set up with a derailleur will be in the minority, I'd guess at least 75% in the typical store will have some kind of internal gear hub. I knew what to expect based on the test ride, but once I finally got it after a long waiting period it was very surprising once I got out of the town. I wasn't used to an ebike motor being so noticeable when in a quiet environment, but once I disabled the assistance it was pretty clear that's just the lack of a chain making sound. Since the old ebike (45nm Bosch mid motor, 7 speed shimano nexus and a regular old chain drive) is still in the family with my parents I'm rather tempted to measure the noise both produce with and without assistance to get an objective idea. The gearbox I picked while convenient does feel like it's a bit less efficient as it takes more effort to maintain a high speed without assistance. The wider and heavier frame, wider pannier bags and Bosch performance line mid drive motor + battery probably don't help this no assistance performance observation. But I don't regret that tradeoff it's very convenient with frequent stopping, accelerating from stationary after waiting for traffic, getting past the occasional bridge/viaduct without having to think about gears. It's my primary mode of transportation for the work commute, getting groceries and the occasional casual ride. And the electric assistance can compensate for that last bit of speed if I'm in a hurry, typically getting to work timely, frozen groceries in the bags or cold/wet weather. The water and toothbrush suggestion to clean the belt seemed very practical, not sure how often it's needed when I don't plan to ride along those routes you're showing on video. I guess I'll keep it in mind if I ever ride over more muddy/sandy type stuff. As much as some of those activities seem fun I don't think my lower back would agree with it and the step through frame is probably not the best suited for it either.
I've tried for many years to go belt drive on my 2003 Cannondale Scalpel with a Speedhub. Even though I can open the seat stays for easy on-off with the belt, they say it won't work; they don't have a rear hanger tensioner that will work for me.
We use Gates polychain belts on a lot of our motors at my work. We get multiple years of hard use before they require replacement. 40,000 - 80,000 hours is not uncommon.
It's not only the gearboxes that make beltdrives less efficient, it is also the belt itself. A belt is somewhat less efficient than a (well maintained and lubricated) chain.
Thoughts on the Split Belt? Seems to be a more practical solution to the frame compatibility issue for the average person, if the durability is on par with a standard belt
You can get split belts now. they have a very deep V where you glue them together. DISCLAIMER: I haven't tried them. :) They just have me curious. I'd love to convert my old bike to belt. Thanks for the long list of questions and comprehensive and clear answers, CyclingAbout. I've been taking notes, particularly on torque and mud. :)
Very informative video, thanks Alee! I did not expect gear hubs to be (slightly) more efficient than gearboxes...they're probably still lighter, too? I've been lusting for a gearbox bike mostly for the better weight distribution, but given I don't do downhill mountain biking or anything that extreme, gear hubs are probably still the best option for me. Way more affordable, too.
Gear hubs are lighter and can be more efficient too. The weight distribution doesn't matter too much until you head off-road. And even then, the higher hub weight never really bothered me on a hardtail (I'd definitely recommend a gearbox for full sus).
Full suspension systems have proven to be vital for me, and climbing hills and shock absorption has been vital in my rides. I'm fascinated by this system. I can see why it is far more proficient. The chain and shifting has been my biggest issue. Going from lowest gear and up. The slack it tends to have, and the chain slipping is more hazardous than anything I've noticed. Do you have any videos on disk breaks or a stronger alternative?
Interesting video. I'm looking to make a DIY bike and i feel like i cannot simply source a frame that supports belt. All of them are e-mtb frames with dual suspensions. Has anyone tried for example to pair an IGH with belt and an M620 on a dangfu frame? Is it possible?
Gates said to me it wasn’t recommended. I don’t believe them! Sure, the belt has to fit some how, and also be adjusted somehow, but what is the big deal? Anyway I plan to retro fit some bikes and build up a quad.
@@spidennis supposedly it's the future of ebikes to have an internal gear hub or gearbox, yet we see no support for these modules. It's also the reason I held myself from building a custom ebike since oem are overpriced to hell. Adaption rate is SO slow. Motor development is also atrociously slow and locked/restricted to silly legislations. In comparison, I have an Esk-8. Those things are rockets. Lots of options for unrestricted ESC's, powerful motors 3000watt x2 , 60km/h+ speeds. Belts system were developed so fast, and within a year or 2 of becoming a popular EV we had a couple of oems develop internal gear drives. Insane how slow and overpriced ebike development is taking into account how popular an ebike is
Have you tried comparing specifically some of the best e-bike chains vs belts? In exchange for a weight penalty, ebike chains have evolved a lot lately, improving the durability to withstand the forces a motor puts them through.
We have 2 different customers that did arround 50 thousand km on a beltsystem with a bosch performance engine / enviolo hub. absolut crazy! we sell belt bikes nearly every day in our shop. i also have a touring and enduro bike with belt. will never go back!
4.57 - the English Cycles Hardtail - on of the most beautyful bikes I have ever seen! Can't find it in the gallery at English Cycles. Are there some more information available? Thx in advance!
Interesting thought for recumbents as I always get oil stains on my leg. I wonder if they make them long enough as I can certainly replace the back gears with an internal hub.
gates makes a 250 teeth, 2 metre long one (~6 feet) for tandems but even that might not be long enough. i've seen this done with two belts with a midway pair of transfer pullies
@@LH1980XX that's a neat looking bike. even your hipothetical mid-way pulleys would need to be able to be shifted front to back to tension the two belts and i'd guess that cantilevered structure on the back probably has too much flex to work with a belt? no need for frame opening though. i've tried an optima orca once. freaky experience having to re-learn riding after so much time on upright bicycles, but interesting nonetheless
Nice system. Till Gates decides to discontinue the system that came on your bike and then you can't get a replacement belt. The CDC belt is no longer made. I have a Scott Sub 10, bought in 2016. AFter 15k miles the belt broke. It took me months to find a belt and I had to have it shipped from Europe. Next time I need a belt, I am not sure where I will get it. Pretty sad.
1:50 wow. Ok strength is confirmed ! The wear is amazing. What is in the belt that would wear out the SS and Alloy gears? Chain I can see - metal on metal.
I don’t think they don’t use these in Tour de France because of “weight”(some used heavy retractable MTB seatposts), that can be compensated but it’s due to the fact that belts have A Lot more resistance than an oiled chain
@@szaka9395 These belts have braided metal cables inside, like car tow cables. These are used in motorcycles, cars, powerful E-MTBs exactly because these can take more abuse. The issue is that it adds more resistance.
I have a Bulls ebike with a belt drive and I love it. I recently got a squeak in my belt and have tried a couple of thing to no avail. Your suggestion about Treadmill Lubricant is well timed and I recently ordered a bottle. I’ll let you know 😊
its actually ridiculous that the chain and sprockets arent enclosed... it looks so lame. right. but more areodynamic... you dont use your bike. just something simple like this would make it last eons longer and its just waiting on a simple patent that is quick to take on or off.
@@wtfvids3472 with the right shape for single speed, it could even be more aerodynamic I think. Those hundred little holes in a chain probably drag around a fair bit of turbulence, versus one large blob with a NACA airfoil with a very tight hole on the side for a crank and the hub. (all of this is nothing compared to loose clothing, but hey)
What a brilliant balanced overview. Just what the cyclist needs. Now what are the options for a cyclist who likes doing sportives and fondos, and may also ride to work?
I don't think there is a huge difference between the tech on a timing belt vs bike belt drive. I think the big difference is the relative size. If bike chains were as wide and thick as a timing chain they would likely never break, and if they were in a filtered oil bath they would never wear out.
I've just ordered a Olsen titanium frame bike with a Pinion gear box & gates drive It's a lot lighter than my Thorn Nomad with a Rohloff .For me the weight is only an issue when it comes to lifting it over gates & fences but at 59 I'm trying to look after my back .
@@Cyclingabout you're just pushing two topics all the time. flat bars and belt drive. it's more like you see cycling only as "let's explore the world! 🤘" the guy says gravel, you say if you prefer flat bars. no, no bicycle with flat bars can be called gravel. a tractor can also be on mountain trails, I don't call it MTB.
I've had a belt drive bike (rolloff&gates) for 2 years, and I've snapped two belts just commuting around town. For me, it is a common occurrence. You have to go to a bike shop that has a lot of experience working with belt drives, or else the mechanic won't get the tension right. And if the mechanics can't get it right, good luck trying to get the tension right on your own!
When I visited China a few years ago, I found in a pile of mobikes on the sidewalk, one with a breoken wheel lock. It was a simple design with a belt drive and airless tires. It was a very ok bike on flat Beijing pavement and I couldn't help but think "Gee, if someone sold a slightly nicer version in the US, I would pay $200 for it instead of the $26 they probably cost a piece here."
Great Video. My older bike has the cheap one Gates belt. 12000km and 6 years. Bike feels like new. Maintance: I've set up the tension after 2000km. It tooks 10 minutes. I also like belts.
For commuting bicycles, belt drives are ok. However, having owned a belt driven bike, they are not perfect. I’ve had a belt snap, they have a much higher resistance to chains and are not simple to fix when they go wrong. Chains are also super compact, and if endurance riding, you can carry two or three spares with ease and always find a shop to repair a chain drivetrain. On your comment regarding gears, I thought the same too. Gearboxes on a commuting bike would be better, but how wrong was that! I found them to be difficult to adjust, they coped badly with any power, and when they did go wrong, it was usually catastrophic. If you need to replace one, it takes forever and costs a small fortune. Derailleurs are simple to replace, cheap to find. I also didn’t find them much cleaner either. They still hold onto dirt and grime and are no cleaner than a well maintained chain. On that last point you are right. But if you don’t maintain your chain, the likelihood is you also don’t oil it, so it’ll be bone dry and as clean as the belt. All in all, the concept is nice, but the execution and reality of a belt drive is not a good one IMHO. One last thing on cost. Chain breaker tools cost about €15 for a Topeak one. And a chain is about €25 for a medium level one. Finally in terms of cost per km. I have an Ultegra chain that’s lasted me over 15,000km and is still going strong. It’s all about how you maintain it.
I been running the same Gates CDX belt on my belt drive mountain bike since 2015 in harsh conditions. The front pulley shows some wear now but still going strong. The best part is when I get home caked in sticky river-bottom mud/clay - I just hose it down and hang it up to dry. No lube. Running it with a Rohloff. The belt saves about a pound. The planetary geared hub adds the pound back on. But I get 14 speeds, and can shift without pedaling which is super handy for winter cycling in MN. Also, and nobody mentions this fact, the 14 gears ratios are almost perfectly linear in spacing. A double shift at the bottom of the range advances the gain ratio (see Sheldon Brown for why this is so significant) the same as at the top of the range - not so with cassettes, which usually jump significantly between three largest cogs to limit the number of huge rear cogs in the cassette. The one con, besides price (less of a factor now than 10 years ago), is that the weight of the heavier geared hub is out at the end of the wheelbase, so I do notice a heavier feeling rear end (the bike’s rear end mine is skinny). But the belt is so reliable I think it’s the best setup for bike packing and true CX MTB touring. No need to stow extra chain, chain tool, lube, etc. And virtually 0 maintenance, especially in winter in MN that is a huge plus. No more rusty chain and no more frozen gears or shifters. My frame is a Ventana Comandante Último w/ XTR cranks, 29” Stans Crest MK3 rims and a 100mm Lefty front fork. Bike weighs in at 25lbs w Maxis Icon tires - 2lbs heavier w winter studded tires.
I think that belt dissipates more energy than a chain to bend, it also stretches a little bit more than a steel chain. This makes the system more inefficient than a rigid chain.
glad you mentioned the nm belts are limited to. i prefer bosch powered bikes (85nm torque) and i can put up to 400watts of power down in short bursts, i bet a lot of people can. thanks again.
There is one thing I don’t understand. How come that according to Gates bending the belt backwards causes damage to the belt while at the same time there are complete bike setups in which the belt is being bent backwards. I even saw images of these setups on the Gates website. Does it or does it not cause damage?
Bending a belt a certain number of degrees backward will not damage the internal tensile cords, and this is the case on the bikes you've seen on the Gates website. But bend it too far and your belt loses all its strength, so it's advisable not to try to find the limit...
Belts just have different problems. Since you have to use a gearbox or planetary hub, your gear ratios available are far fewer, and very difficult to change. Also, usually way more friction.
That's very cool! Even when I was in grade 7, there were weeks that I biked 1000 km/week. I've torn apart countless chains, even high quality ones...Maybe that would finally solve my problems. You can't speed up too hard when you worry about a chain snapping or pedal busting off.
One gates belt is almost 100€. I can get 10 11 speed chains for that. A chain lasts me between 10000-15000 kilometers. The cost per Kilometer is much higher on a belt driven bicycle, even if I assume the highest service live of 40000 kilometers. It's cool tech certainly, too expensive for me. Wheels to Wander channel have shown you can travel the world just as good on a 26 inch 90s mountain bike. If you need the extra comfort a belt drive gives you, more power to you.
What chain do you use? I use the recommended Shimano for my 8 speed Nexus, and I've to change it every 5000km aprox because it loses so much tension that it hangs noticeable low
There are plastic casings which used with single speed bicycles mostly, but still it posible to use such device with belt(theoretically, at least construction don't prevent it). If so then belt will last even longer... Well, in case if You don't fear around hundred grams of additional wight on Your bike.
Excellent video. I've learnt so much about Belt Drives. Always found them intriguing but never took the time to learn until now. Now I wish I'd bought a Belt drive bike.. Thanks for sharing your passion and knowledge in this quality video @cyclingabout
Shame that you cant just swap chain drive to belts. Buying new very expensive bike just to have belt is too much. I will rather stay with chain and change it maybe 2 or 3 times, its super easy anyway so not big deal.
Any thoughts on converting the timing chain to a belt on my tandem. The wear is minimal as the gear ratio is 1:1. Currently I use two 42 teeth chainrings. 🙏🏻
I've covered everything I know about belt drive in this video! Here are some gearboxes you can now pair with belts:
🍒 $199 Shimano Alfine hub video: th-cam.com/video/qf9tFJFXV5o/w-d-xo.html
🍑 Rohloff Hub vs Pinion Gearbox video: th-cam.com/video/W_hx4V9mYuw/w-d-xo.html
🍌 Effigear Gearbox video: th-cam.com/video/F08bDBK7U7A/w-d-xo.html
🍍New Gearbox Drivetrains for 2023 video: th-cam.com/video/pyeMBKJLtWI/w-d-xo.html
I wish they still mabe quality igh like sachs duomatic. But maybe with modern standards.
I wish i can get that in give away 😅
If a belt breaks does it destroy the gear box.
Hey cmon, let's get the really interesting Enviolo N380 continuously variable hub in there.
I enjoy watching this build dream mtb .it motivate me to continue biking
I'm a mechanical engineer that designs engines.
Belts are useful for all sorts of stuff, but chain drives have their place. Almost all the disadvantages of conventional roller chains are obviated by using O-ring or X-ring chains, whilst retaining basically all of the upsides. Roller chains last so much longer in cars because they are inside the engine, bathed in clean lubricating oil, and sealed from the outside.
Chains are durable and long life.
But I have yet to come across any bicycle drivetraibs that use roller chains that have orings in them, I am very jealous of motorcycle chains being internally sealed like that
@@ItsTheAOK Seems like a good business idea that someone could capitalize on. I'm too busy running my current business to take on another.
My old V6 mondeo had a chain, never had to be replaced! No pesky cambelt replacement!
Bingo they are after profits
I think a lot of us would happily use belts (I certainly would) it's just that gearboxes are jolly expensive, and rare for frame integration (and heavy for people who care about that)
My entire microshift clutch drivetrain (shifter, cassette, derailleur, chain), was £80 on sale, ya can't really beat that until gearboxes become mainstream
I know a lot of people who buy expensive bikes , so 8k and more. No one got the pinion because the frames way to much limited and no one of them likes to shift with the twist shifter. Pinions still shift with that. The electronic shifter is only for ebikes , for now.
I would buy a MTB enduro frame with that drive train and gates. Same stuff here, not a frame available that got the right numbers for the geometry and rear wheel travel. I would go custom, still same stuff. Not available for the numbers I like.
Keep in mind I have only 1,8k FS frame and my drive train currently would cost 720 + 300 for the crank. I would pay without hesitation 6 k only for the frame+pinion/effigear.
I'm a big Gevenelle fan with friction shifters .
Belts look fine. But I won't be in the market for a new bike for a very, very long time. Until then, chains and derailleurs it is.
microshift is great. and replacing a chain once a year +other parts would amount to the price of gearbox and new wheel and chainset over a lifetime. still its cool id get one if i had the chnage like you said.
Hello, brother
I had a nexus chain on a cargo bike for more than 20 000km and it was under 0.5% of wear. Lubed once. The secret ingredient is full chaincase that prevent anything to touch the chain. That decrease the incentive to use a belt on any bike that can fit a case for the chain.
That is genius! Where did you get your chain case? I'm not sure I've ever seen one, but I've also never really looked for them. That would solve the concern of needing a frame with a split rear triangle. Couple questions about your use: did the 20k kms involve rain, snow, road salt, sand, or other adverse conditions, and did there seem to be any wear on the cog and chainring after that of use?
@@mitmon_8538 It came with the bike so I can't point you to where to get one.
I'm using it every day on road, in every conditions, so it did get rain, snow a lot. But I rarely ride it on sand or mud (it's a cargo bike with a 20" front wheel so I tent to avoid it if I can).
The nexus Cog was as new but there were some wear starting to show on the chainring. It's only minor so I kept the parts in case of emergency.
I only swapped the drivetrain because I had to repair the hub and I bought the parts before disassembling them, But if I had checked the wear before buying, and if I didn't have to disassemble the hub anyway, I probably would have kept them a few thousands km more.
I also double checked My chain wear measurements because I was surprised it could last that long (a 8€ chain and 3€ cog with a 20€ crankset... that's unbelievable for the money)
I can't post links on YT but I found a case that's called "Hesling Excelle full chainguard " that's look nearly exactly as the one I own.
@@jowjor thanks for the detailed reply. I'm happy with my 2 belt drives bikes, one with and IGH and another with a Pinion, so I probably won't need to look into this anytime soon. But this is great info for people who want to get into internal gearing as cheap as possible.
@@mitmon_8538 Gazelle and Batavus make good full case bikes with Shimano Nexus 8 (almost same as alfine 8) have ridden one for 6 years 30.000 km before it broke (never did any maintenance)
@@mitmon_8538 Look for chainglider
Had belts on Rohloffs and Pinion since 2012 and would not go back. If you are wanting a reliable and straight forward method of getting from A to B with zero fuss you can’t beat gearboxes and belts. Marketing makes people think they need the same technology as used in races when in reality they need something that will just work. Even more relevant in this day and age we need less throw away parts and parts that are going to last. Thank you for another factually correct and unbiased video.
They have been such a big life improvement for me - I don't miss derailleurs at all on my hard-working touring and commuter bikes.
I don't doubt a Rohloff hub will still be going on it's 28th birthday (planetary gears in other applications easily do that. There are plenty of tractors and cars older than that with planetary gears that still work with way more mileage than any single bycicle will ever reach)
And while i like the idea of belt driven bycicles and less things being trown away, i think something to consider is that the materials a chain consists off are 100% recyclable while the materials a belt consists of, not so much.
I prefer the lightness of derailleur and the strength of a chain .
@Pin Ky You seem very quick with superficially judging others and with clicking the submit/answere button (or whatever the button displays in your language of YT use.)
You could have also taken your time and thought about what i wrote and put your answere in one comment.
1) i never claimed to own a rohloff hub (or any other such gearbox for bicycles). I just commented on how these kind of gearboxes last in other applications and thus my conclusion of how it would last in this aplication.
2) we seem to have a different understanding of recycling. Recycling to me, means the material of an item itself can be reshaped and repurposed into a new product several times.Making a makeshift jumping rope that barely works is not the same as being able to melt the metal of a chain and gaining new war material through that.
A perfect example of what i consider recycling, are current lead acid car batteries: After their "life" they can 100% be recycled. The acid gets reconditioned, the lead gets cleaned of the sulferings (which are put back into the acid), melted and remolded into new elextrodes and the plastic of the casing gets shredded into small peaces, cleaned and used as granulate for injection molding new battery cases.
@Pin Ky Well done for not replacing it. I too run derailleurs with friction shifting as you can mix and match parts. The way modern standards limit your choice is a problem. But yeh it probably will be around. People have their hub gears for hundreds of thousands of miles. So should be good for decades without as much maintenance.
Your first video was enough to convince me to design an ebike for Canadian cities based around the belt drive
Our company is a year and a half old now and selling bikes like crazy
Thank you for your in-depth sharing.
The belt-driven ebike is such an amazing transportation tool that you never have to think about
I'll be waiting for your product! located in mississuga ontario
What ebike company would this be?
@@elik031 you can look us up TuffHill eBikes
We have sold a few to people we know in Toronto, but mostly our sales have been on Calgary
@@danc1513 TuffHill eBikes
Congratulations!
You should listen to "The Strangest Secret" by Earl Nightengale. It's very relevant to your success.
I bought a commuter bike with a belt drive and an Alfine 8 IGH based on your advice and love it. Super reliable with minimal maintenance.
Same. Alfine 11 with belt on ebike. As close to zero maintenance as possible. Love it.
Yep. My Civia Bryant came after watching his videos. Getting drops fitted now.
How’s the efficiency compared to a chain bike?
REAL MEN USE CHAINS!!!!!!!
@@nevertakeadayoff way to display your insecurities for all to see :)
On my 3rd year of my first belt drive thanks to you, Alee. Thanks for the good advice, I have never regretted the change.
I have been riding for more than 6 months now from New York to El Salvador with a Cube belt drive I bought last summer and I didn't have a problem at all. So easy to maintenance.
**LIAR!!**
@@JESUSCHRYSLER5512 why should I lie?
After I disassembled, cleaned and regreased Nexus8 hub with Shimano IGH specific lube and adjusted hub cones I was astonished how small hub drag now is and how much more enjoyable bike became. Pity is that bike companies charging $$$ for their products rarely care to fine tune bikes and just charge like for a set of parts they put together.
Skip the IGH lube. Even Shimano themselves no longer recommend the grease originally used in Nexus hubs, suggesting instead to use a liquid oil that you dip the hub internals into and then allow to thoroughly drip-out before reinstalling. Lots of ham-fisted knuckle-draggers will recommend using ATF (or worse, Marvel Mystery Oil) because they think it's magical, but I use a bottle of Redline 75w140 GL5 gearbox oil because it actually has the correct lubricant properties for highly-loaded IGH internals. It's very slick but also formulated to be non-slip, so the one-way bearings will work properly. Great stuff.
@@deusexaethera Trust me, I ate my nails trying to figure out which route to go! I were a bit skeptical about ATF or GB oil as I didn't want to deal with possible oil leaks. Black IGH lube is much thinner than I expected so I decided to give it a try. Years ago I did see how looks hardened up white IGH grease in 3sp hub and black is much much more thin.
Don't you have oil leaks from gear box stuff?
P.S. I know very well why Shimano recommends oil bath - it's a PITA to put back sun gears properly. I didn't pay enough attention and got back only 4 gears, after positioning sun gears correctly all gears came back. Not a job for average Joe who can't finish 3min video on TH-cam because it's too long. Oil dip is much safer for customer and Shimano as a brand because people just don't end up with a pile of parts they can't put together into working mechanism. Frankly, next time I wouldn't want to deal with full tear down, too)
@@event4216 : It's not because Shimano doesn't want the liability of users disassembling their own hubs to regrease them, it's because liquid oil reflows around moving parts and grease doesn't. The new Alfine hubs use liquid oil for the same reason, and Rohloff hubs have always used liquid oil. Shimano thought grease would be good enough, so they could skip having proper oil seals, but they learned the hard way that grease wasn't good enough. Unlike hub bearings, gearboxes have too much open space that grease can get squished into and never return to circulation. Liquid oil doesn't have that problem.
If you let the liquid oil drip out thoroughly, so there's just a thin coating on all the moving parts, there are no oil leaks to speak of even in a not-fully-sealed Nexus hub. The internals don't experience enough centrifugal force at sane riding speeds for the oil to be flung off, especially not GL5 gearbox oil which has polar molecules and sticks to metal even better than older oils.
@@deusexaethera Next time I'll try GB oil. Thanks! Where were you when I researched this before?
As much as I like IGH there's no way I'm going to buy Shimano oil kit which is OK for bike shop specializing in hub service. As a home user I like simpler hack and Nexus isn't a mech I'd be worried to ruin opposite to Rohloff or Pinion.
@@deusexaethera Now I remember reading about oil leaks after using ATF and hated idea I'd have it anywhere near belt.
What's your experience with leaks?
i switched all my bikes to belts after watching a couple of your vids last couple of years.. and i don't regret my switch.. it's not that i mind maintenance of my bike but good maintenance takes a lot of time. way more then most people do when they talk about maintenance. Thanks for all your vids. Greating from The Netherlands.
I agree, as i have been working in a Flourmill plant for 29 years and we are using High tension drive belt in running our Rollermill machines. Our belt supplier is Gates. This time now I'm a biker and here in Philippines i have not yet saw a belt drive bike and hope i can get through how to change into a belt drive on my bike.
I have been following your channel for a while now. You have helped me so much on my tours and really dialing in my build and kit. I have finally ordered all the parts for my belt drive bike. A Bombtrack Outlaw frame, son dyno, Rohloff a12, and much more. I have an old priority bike and I love it. It, along with your videos, sold me on a belt and I cant get over the sound of a chain/derailleur grind now. Thanks for all your videos and hard work brother.
@@Posturehelper Not a dime. I also tour on my bike and his channel actually goes into the deep nerdy stuff I love with the experience to back it up. Having tried a belt with an old priority and having seen his multiple videos on the subject I decided to make it a real build for me. He also broke down the major differences between the Rohloff and shimano alfine 11 internally geared hubs in another video and its something I have been really debating on myself as to the fine detailed differences of both of these very popular hubs. Idk what makes these comments weird, but appreciating the immense time and effort he puts into making all these videos with graphs, data points, nuance differences, ect, doesn't mean its paid. The guy simple does an amazing job and he's helped me out by answering a lot of my questions.
@@Posturehelperare you getting paid to plant your seed of doubt here?
Here in Belgium I just got my first belt drive bike, a Bullitt cargo bike, and now whatever my next normal bike will be, it's gonna be belt drive.
With daily commuting and crap Belgian weather, chains are basically permanently dirty or crunchy so I assume at least in the winter, a belt drive will actually end up more efficient for me.
Most people don't like doing maintenance either so I see *a lot* of bikes with horrible rusty crunchy chains. I now exclusively recommend disc brake belt drive bikes when someone is talking about buying a new daily commuting bike, especially if it's an e-bike. I honestly don''t really know why expensive chain drive e-bikes even exist anymore.
For mid drives, the difference is efficiency and sudden failures.
When battery powered, it matters quite a bit more, and when they fail, fixing them is an absolute pain.
IMO, the best compromise is a waxed chain with a partial/full chain guard. The difference is insane.
I drive belts since 6 years as commuter and just love them. You even showed one of it in your video, the Schindelhauer Emil. Belts are elegant, silent, clean and low maintenance.
Thanks for such a great comprehensive video. Recently bought a Priority 600X with Pinion belt drive. Love the technology and can't wait to take it on a few long distance tours this summer. No chain lube and the mess it creates is something I'm looking forward to. Thanks again, Steve
How have you found the belt after owning the bike for a decent amount of time? Easy to maintain compared to as chain? Intrigued to know the difference!
@@Richy91 No problems at all. Very simple and easy to maintain. Smooth and quiet shifting. I've got about 3000 miles on the bike and the belt shows no sign of wear.
I wish I have been able to get 10,000km on a belt. I'm on my 3rd belt now due to two belt failures at around 5,000km or less. The belt didn't snap like Ryan Van Duzer's, but the teeth would start to show cracking at the base of the teeth. I tried managing the tension a bit closer, but found that the cogs themselves had gotten so worn that I needed to replace those. The teeth were getting very sharp and I had a rear cog where some of the teeth had completely worn out. I've since upgraded to stainless, so we'll see how that goes. Either way, I will religiously keep a spare belt on any bikepacking trip as the first failure outside of cell service and 30km of singletrack away from the nearest town.
Das ist nicht der Riemen an sich. Der Gesamte Antrieb stimmt da bei dir nicht bzw. irgend etwas daran eben. Der riemen muss ja absolut in flucht sein, das fahrrad lässt das aber manchmal nicht zu weil der rahmen eben nicht 100% steif ist, er bewegt(Verzug) sich und dadurch stimmt die flucht des riemens nicht. las das überprüfen bei einem Profi bevor du ständig riemen kaufen musst oder die Antriebsteile tauscht ohne das es am ende was bringt.
Riemen sind gut aber eben nicht für alle fälle besser. eine kette an einer nabe macht solche probleme nicht!
I bought a riese&muller ebike with a gates carbon belt drive and an enviolo internal gear hub and I'm never going back to chains and derailleurs again. for my application which is about a 12k ride to and from work in rain,sleet snow and all sorts not having to do any maintenance on the bike outside of changing brake pads once in a while has been a dream come true.
Yes, with no maintanace the bike will be finished after 5 years! Why be so leasy on a so expensive bike? It takes 5-10 min a week to keep the bike clean. People take care about there cars because they are expensive. A e-bike from riese and Müller is easy about 6000€. Thats a lot of money for a bike.
@@ShakaZulu76 I obviously take care of the thing, I just don't have to oil the chain and adjust the derailleur constantly
@@amafi_poe But thats not necessery on a chain with single speed or a gearhub too. I got a chain on my rohloff hub. maybe onetime a month i clean the chain for 3 minutes. And at the end the chain is much much chaeper at a life time of a bike and its more effective to come forward.
Best cycling vids on TH-cam for years now. Keep up the great work you folks do.
When I was in Japan in the late 90s, many of the commuter 'mamachari' bicycles had belts. I thought they were so cool. No maintenance. You can leave your bike outside in the rain at the train station and not worry about your chair rusting up.
how about the sprockets?
@@Produif 'stainless' is da way
Aren't they... harder to drive, less efficient?
@@KOTYAR1 Yes they are feels "squishy" at times and takes away some of what you put in
I have one of those belt drive bike in japan, totally silent n love it
I bought a Priority Classic Plus Gotham on their first year of release. (7:26) I rode it a few months, life got hectic, it sat for nearly 1 1/2 years... Went out to it yesterday, pumped the tires up, water wiped down the entire bike to get rid of dust, checked cable adjustments and went off for a short, nearly two mile ride. No chain, no mess, no fuss. Thoroughly impressed. Inspected the belt prior to the ride and saw nothing at all wrong with the belt. Personally like how you fine tune belts - harmonically 🙂So musical Gates is with their app.
IMO, Internal gear hub + regular chain is good enough for most people. Pricing wise.
When buying a new bike, the price upgrade to belt drive is usually just $100 or so! In some instances, it's a bit more but you get a hub upgrade too (eg. 7-speed to 8-speed hub). 👍🏻
I'd never consider chain if IGH is an option.
@@channul4887 derailleur > igh
@@skfl7014 yeah Pogacar, I hear you need all the fractional gainzzzz.
Plus, without derailer, you can use a chain cover (it's just a marked-up plastic electric wire holder) which holds in the grease and makes your chain last forever.
Love it for trail and enduro MTB!! Shifted to Gates belt + Pinion gearbox after 28 years of chains. Faster on the downhill, not noticable slower on the uphill.
Besides the price, one of my gripes personally with gearboxes is that it's quite a bit more difficult to hook them up with dropbar shifters
That’s fair. Shimano Di2 shifters are probably the nicest option available currently, but only for Alfine. Given the new Pinion and Rohloff electronic trigger shifters coming through on e-bikes, I don’t think we’re too far away from some drop bar levers too!
Yeah. Too few road bikes are going for belts so there's fewer drop bars. Gravel bikes at least made this less often.
if its personal why you telling us/?
@@Cyclingabout I would never go touring with electronic shifters. I have seen too many people, even in races, with empty batteries.
"Besides the price, one of my gripes personally..."
So, The idea of needing to buy buy a *replacement frame* with a cut in the frame to accommodate the techno-belt didn't put you off?🤷
Great expert subject matter narrative unpacking pros and cons of belt drive bicycles along with all the do’s and don’ts. Although I have personally never owned or ridden a belt drive bicycle, I’m a loyal chain driven cyclist because all the lifelong memories. It seems me “all-in” belt drive comes at a premium because the entire bicycle is basically designed around the belt, it’s certainly highly and best suited for world touring adventures, I most certainly couldn’t see doing that type of cycling using a chain. Thank you for another wonderful informative video ! ❤😊
I'm currently at 38,000 K on my Co-Motion Americano rohlof with original belt CDX. The Chain ring is starting to get "sharp teeth" the rear sprocket is showing almost no wear. I do keep the tension lower than recommended by Gates as I have found that recommended tension is not needed. I carry a spare belt just in case as its pretty light and gives peace of mind. The only issue i have had is occasional squeaky noise after riding in dry dust conditions. Road up the Dempster and ITH to Tuktoyaktuk last summer including two days with rain which In my opinion is a proper test. The belt did fine...the shifter cables....well they got progressively harder to shift as the grit built up. Thanks for your videos.
Very impressive numbers! Make sure to check out the UT Belt Care product or Treadmill silicone lubricant if you want to avoid squeaking entirely.
I would like to expand on the automotive belts v. Chain.
Chains are in a sealed environment and continuously lubricated.
Belts are often covered and not completely sealed.
Because oil destroys the belt. And sunlight too. Not relevant for a car, but pretty relevant for a bicyle.
YOU DON'T SEE NHRA USING CHAINS ON THE SUPERCHARGER
As a mechanical engineer, I'm very familiar with the advice at 17:54 to avoid backbending of (most) timing belts, since it shortens life. This doesn't just apply to loose belts; it also means that we try to avoid tensioners which bend the belt the "wrong" way. However, it seems that bicycle belt drives often include such tensioners, such as those shown at 2:19, 3:52 and even what appears to be Gates own promo material at 13:24.
I checked Gates' Technical Manual, expecting to find a minimum allowable radius for backbend-inducing idler pulley, probably calculated according to belt model, expected load and riding conditions, but here is the whole of the section on "Tensioner & Idler Integration":
"Gates Carbon Drive has been working with bicycle manufacturers to properly design and implement idlers into some specific applications. For each application, thorough testing of the drive is completed, and certain parameters need to be met prior to releasing the bike to the market. Our belt handling instructions must still be followed, as backbending belts by hand could cause damage. Idlers that follow our design requirements do not cause belt failures. All idler designs require approval by Gates Carbon Drive engineering team."
That's it!
Know what doesn't mind back bending? A chain.
My previous full metal bike was a gazelle. I got this bike when I was 13 yo and 40 years later I bought a new Gazelle (alluminum one). In the 40 years I never changed the chain and never did any maintenance on the bike other than tire/tube changes when needed, while using it for most of the ~30 years on a daily basis (the brakes were not very good anymore at the end). My current alluminum Gazelle bike, I still didn't replace the chain after 9 years but more maintenance is needed on the alluminum parts.
Alee is a star at these videos and his adventures do inspire. I have been trying to get folks I know to try 15,000 steps never mind 15,000km or 150,000km in Alee and Laura’s case.
I had a bike shop for 25 Years. My experiences: Belt drives on bicycles have increased frictional resistance. I was shocked when I tried out 2 very expensive bikes in the bike store and thought the drive of the bikes was faulty, the belt had such high resistance. When you turned the cranks, they stopped immediately. I also want a very light bike and love derailleur gears. If you change the chain when it's only half worn out, you can ride 10,000 km with the same sprockets and have very low follow-up costs compared to the belt drive and get spare parts all over the world, don't need a special frame and don't have higher friction in the hub. In cars or motorcycles, the increased resistance does not come into play as much because of the engine. Thanks.
I've used a Gates CDX belt drive paired with a Shimano Alfine on an urban bike as a commuter bike for a couple of years. While I generally enjoyed the low maintenence aspect, in the end the belt as well as the plastic rear sprocket has worn out after about 20000 km. And the repair was pretty pricey. On the other hand I've had Campagnolo chains on my road bikes which lasted some 15000 km. You obviously have much more experience with belts than I do but from my anectdotal experience the cost per km wasn't lower with my Gates CDX belt than with a good chain.
There is still the benefit of having less maintenance work to do with a belt. But for me personally, being a fast rider ultimately the urban bike was too slow and I bought a gravel bike as a commuter and I am much happier with it.
CDN plastic sprocket was a misengineered product, he covered that mistake and Gates did it, too. Pity customers had to go through it.
15000 km with a chain is for me absolutely impossible. I dont know what I am doing. But even the Eagle chains dont last that long and on my commuter I also snap chains.
For my MTB it is clear why I cant have that long chain life because they get damaged by objects on the trail or jump of grears in really rough terrain when the chainguard fails also.
Most chains I have will die after 3-4k EVEN with a chainswap @ 1k and 2k
@@Vanadium Roadies who ride in fair weather can get much longer chain life than MTBrs who put bike through rough trails. Much bigger mechanical stressing chain + dirt, sand, water, stones, sticks = faster wear.
@@Vanadium I'm struggling to believe that he managed to get 15000km out of a modern 10/11/12x drivetrain chain without exceeding wear limits and messing up cassette and chain rings. So either he knows something nobody else does or he's just a fantasist.
@@event4216 true but I cant even get close to 5k for my commuter. This is mostly ridden on paved roads with some gravel in between. Ofc salt and snow will say hello once a while...
the internal hub shifters are like 300-900 dollars each the Pinion Gearbox at the pedal is north of one grand so unless you intend to use a single speed bike you have to add that cost to the drive train
My belt bike died after only 4 years of city riding. Back sprocket cracked and lost a tooth leading to a belt failure very quickly after the rear sprocket broke. While I continue to be a fan of the Gates Belt Drive due to lower maintenance effort, it is a fact that it is more expensive and less mechanically efficient than chain in the long run. Advantages come at a higher price.
got an almost 30 year old chain that has never been replaced n has suffered tons of cold rainy nights outside cuz of my dumbass. fuck belts bro dont even use em on motorcycles, less efficient power delivery no ty. Last time i put any grease on this chain was like 13 years ago and it was the cheapest crap u could find from YEARS ago if not almost a decade.
Facts
@@Posturehelper YAYYY
30 year old chain that has been sitting without being ridden. @@stormer24
I still prefer a timing belt over a chain. It's easy to replace a bad timing belt. It's a pain in the ass to do the chain, which is usually integrated into the engine to share lubrication with the cylinders. This also means as the chain wears, its metal affects the cylinders and as the cylinders wear, their metal affects the chain. Most of it is handled by the filter, but still, a lot of grinding metal.
Additionally, that's why it lasts "longer" than a timing belt. The belt in an automobile is exposed, or just barely covered, much like a bicycle. A timing chain is hidden away in the engine and drenched in oil.
On a bicycle, the chain is exposed and only dry lubed, so it's definitely not going to last as long as a timing chain dripping in lubricant and protected by a filter.
Had a conti belt on my commuter bike. It was pretty noisy, requiring regular cleaning and silicone spray to stay quiet, though I gather the noise was just annoying, not actually affecting anything. Then one day while accelerating from standstill it just snapped in two. Unsurprisingly I changed to a chain. But I'm sure I was just unlucky, and that Gates belts would be better, surely nobody would use them otherwise 😅
I work in the logistics section of a local bike shop. We use cargobikes with inernal gear hubs and belt drive systems, specifically urban arrow and riese&müller bikes. Ive seen suspensions and even frames bend or break before their belts broke.
Top garbage bikes then xD
I like the English Bike's take on having the belt outside the rear drop out so the frame doesn't have to be split to change the belt.
Indeed, a number of manufacturers now have frames that put the chainstay up higher, to allow the belt to run outside the frame so that the frame doesn't need to split.
The frame still needs to be designed specifically to support the belt drive, but it at least removes one structural issue that used to limit adoption of belt drive.
I also have never had anyone cut my belt, but curious people love to grab it and twist it around sideways. This has never directly lead to breaking a belt but possibly could have contributed to a short lifespan for it, as the manual specifically advises against it.
Pushing on or twisting the belt with their hand is no big deal (I worked in R&D for a belt company and actually designed an application of belts like this where the belt was twisted in two places.)
wtf why?
What kind of rude people touch drivetrain let alone belts on others' bikes?
The only issue with people grabbing and twisting your belt, is that people are grabbing and twisting your belt! Some people, man! I'd never have the urge to touch someone else's bike, unless I knew them and asked first.
I have 10,000+ miles on a belt drive single speed the 'ace of spades' geared 55/19 or 2.89. It doesn't have the gearbox issue so I'm pretty sure it's just as efficient and fast as a chain drivetrain. I do 20+mph average rides, and can hit 22 or 23mph on a flat. IMO if you live in a really flat area, a belt-drive single speed is kind of a perfect bike.
If you hate your legs and back then yes.
i have a commuter with a pinion c-line. i love it- no mess, and nearly no maintenance. also, i do not have a split in my rear triangle (priority bike), i just drop the tyre. i have hit 23 mph (37kmh) for one of my mile splits commuting to work on level ground, they can be quick if you pedal. the belt drive does not care if it rains, and with a pinion i have peace of mind submerging the gearbox while following my crazy son on his 'this will be epic' adventures.
i am used to a "well balanced" front and rear gear option, front 3, but i only use two, and the rear full spectrum, so if they will make a version of this, with a front two step gearbox and rear 7-9 step eqvivalent numbers of ratios, and it wont cost absurdly more, then i will jump over to this..
I have a Marin Presidio 3 with CDN belt drive and very happy with it so far!
Never seen a belt drive bike before.. Very interesting. When i decide its time to long travel by bike i will consider this option
And you get a belt failure, or transmision problem. In the middle of nowhere. Shops 200 km around you doesnt fix it, dont have parts. Your bike is not moving at all. Good luck to your long travel adventure...
@@szaka9395 thats why you have to be flexible when travelling. If that happened i would probably hitchike or take public transport until the nearest place that can fix it and then resume cycling. Considering the durability and reliabilty of these belt systems, i assume such an event will only happen rarely
I've known this for years. Glad to see credible accounts saying this. Thank you.
I used to work in R&D for a company that makes these kind of belts, and I rode a concept bike 20 years ago... I can confirm that the drivetrain feels WAY smoother than a chained bike. The one I rode had zero perceptible drivetrain slack/play when starting to apply pressure on the petals. You might not really think about this without experiencing a belt drive, but there is significant amount of it with a chain. That part is great but personally I've never considered building a belt bike myself. I'd only use it for a single speed. But a chain works fine and is cheaper. So.. IMO it's only worth it if the reduction in drivetrain slack is extremely important to you, and you don't mind spending more just to have a bike that's different.
Have you ever correctly adjusted chain tension?
Belt drive single speed fixed gear is such a pleasure. Almost no maintenance required and so quiet
Chains on cars and motorcycles are usually used in applications that are sealed from elements (e.g. camshaft timing chain) and therefore also can have their lubrication happen in isolation of the elements. This is their "optimal operating conditions", hence why they perform and last longer than belts. On bikes however chains are subject to the elements, which is where belts operate better because the elements mess up the lubrication over time and require more maintenance than belts.
Almost all motorcycles have chain drives exposed to all elements (some beltdrives and shaft drives excluded)
@@abitofaviation true but not as exposed as bicycles. They are somewhat covered and relatively more protected vs bikes. Besides, motorcycles don't have derailleurs and rely on gearboxes, which removes a lot of complexity on the chain
The lubrication is the easiest part of the task. The cleaning is the more labor intensive one.
All in all it's all relative. I mean we are talking 20 mins total cleaning, changing liquid of the cleaning tools, scrubbing and lubing.
So it's all not "Labor intensive", only relatively
@Pin Ky one step clean and lube product like Rock N Roll or Finish Line is what I use
I have a belt drive bike. Plastic rear sprocket lasted less than 12 months before shattering. Replaced with a metal one. Never had an issue since.
Belt manufacturers: "Do not backend!!!"
Bike manufacturers: "Check out these brilliant belt tensioners that continuously bend the belt backwards!"
I believe the radius of the bend is more important than the direction of the bend.
Just buying/installing a belt also needs all the accessories the belt needed. Its great project. Furthermore bearings and chains will do for me.
Chain efficiency itself is complicated.
Have you looked up Zero Friction Cycling's chain lube and wax test data? Some of the modern products are so efficient that they broke the test protocol and resulted in infinite longevity. Waxed chains are also clean (no black muck etc).
Yeah, but they usually require a lot of prep work.
Compliments - Great video. Thank you for the detailed description of the belt drive down to the depths of belt technology. I would be happy to link your video to interested customers.
I'm not even a cyclist. I just watched it all as I'm interested in technology and engineering. I can certainly envision belts becoming more commonplace in the future, especially with newer technologies like high entropy steels on the horizon. Maybe I'll even find my next motorbike to have a belt.
As someone who rides motorcycles STUPID long distances, And is pretty regular about chain lubing. [once a day after about 8 hours of riding] And uses X-ring chains. I can only get about 16k miles out of name brand chain before it's making crunchy noises. I Just think the forces acted on the belt drive systems, causes a lot more stretch. due to the forces of high speeds, and rotation of the swing arms. Zero owners [the motorcycle brand] often complain about belts just yeeting off. and in sandy conditions not lasting very long either, Harley guys who've had OEM belts for the last idk 20 or so years now.. Run into the same issue of sand killing the life of the belt. For distance riding/quiet operation/low maintenance motorcycle final drive components. you're going to be looking at Shaft drive.. [and lots of bikes are made/have been made with such tech] The downside to shaft drive is the higher rotational mass- and a pretty nasty efficiency hit.
@@johnwalker7592 The shaft drive has a LOT of downsides, not just rotational inertia and efficiency. That's why it's pretty much exclusively seen in bikes made to tour third world countries where the incredible reliability is worth all the extreme drawbacks. I wouldn't want to be there with a problems with my chain or sprocket, the latter also being a potential problem. But in the performance bike application where I sit the mass will cause issues with suspension, and generally mass itself is a problem. Then as mentioned efficiency, other bikes will care more about fuel economy whilst mine will care about power. The space taken will pose issues with a swingarm and packaging the exhaust. The list goes on. So that's ruled out completely.
Belt drive really depends on the application more than anything else. Again in my performance bike market there's issues with shock loading and strength, especially on the teeth. The width will cause problems. It's just a long way off.
For non-performance bikes it really depends on how you use it. Swingarm rotation isn't an issue as modern swingarms already design that problem out. And if needed they don't need a direct route either as the video demonstrates.
Stretching is a different case and it sounds like the problem is more use case specific. A well made belt shouldn't be stretching as the composites used have negligible stretch at all. So either they're using steel cables (bad) or they're breaking the composite reinforcement from the sheer powers involved. It sounds like the Harley OEM cables don't have that problem as they're almost certainly fitted well to the use case of the forces involved. But sand is always going to cause massive issues on a belt.
Overall I'd suggest a belt is likely the future in most cases, but it's also largely beyond the technology of most cases today. We need to better deal with the forces of the majority of bikes, often in excess of 120hp, and likely need to tweak sprocket sizes to help (which also demands an entirely different frame geometry). Still the benefits likely outweigh the drawbacks outside of performance and dirt bikes. I still don't want to change, though. I like biking where it is today.
The Dutch used to build cars with belt drives.
I used to drive on of them.
I loved it. The two rear wheels were driven separately . Safer and smoother.
The car was called Daffodil.
I wonder that downside of bike shops not having them would apply for my situation here in the Netherlands. My recent purchase has a belt drive with an automatic enviolo gear hub thingy, but if I'd have to guess about 10-20% of the bicycles they had in the store for sale were equipped with a belt. But the focus on bicycle sales here is typically less focused on sport activities and more on practical everyday activities. The ones set up with a derailleur will be in the minority, I'd guess at least 75% in the typical store will have some kind of internal gear hub.
I knew what to expect based on the test ride, but once I finally got it after a long waiting period it was very surprising once I got out of the town. I wasn't used to an ebike motor being so noticeable when in a quiet environment, but once I disabled the assistance it was pretty clear that's just the lack of a chain making sound. Since the old ebike (45nm Bosch mid motor, 7 speed shimano nexus and a regular old chain drive) is still in the family with my parents I'm rather tempted to measure the noise both produce with and without assistance to get an objective idea.
The gearbox I picked while convenient does feel like it's a bit less efficient as it takes more effort to maintain a high speed without assistance. The wider and heavier frame, wider pannier bags and Bosch performance line mid drive motor + battery probably don't help this no assistance performance observation. But I don't regret that tradeoff it's very convenient with frequent stopping, accelerating from stationary after waiting for traffic, getting past the occasional bridge/viaduct without having to think about gears. It's my primary mode of transportation for the work commute, getting groceries and the occasional casual ride. And the electric assistance can compensate for that last bit of speed if I'm in a hurry, typically getting to work timely, frozen groceries in the bags or cold/wet weather.
The water and toothbrush suggestion to clean the belt seemed very practical, not sure how often it's needed when I don't plan to ride along those routes you're showing on video. I guess I'll keep it in mind if I ever ride over more muddy/sandy type stuff. As much as some of those activities seem fun I don't think my lower back would agree with it and the step through frame is probably not the best suited for it either.
I've tried for many years to go belt drive on my 2003 Cannondale Scalpel with a Speedhub. Even though I can open the seat stays for easy on-off with the belt, they say it won't work; they don't have a rear hanger tensioner that will work for me.
We use Gates polychain belts on a lot of our motors at my work. We get multiple years of hard use before they require replacement. 40,000 - 80,000 hours is not uncommon.
It's not only the gearboxes that make beltdrives less efficient, it is also the belt itself. A belt is somewhat less efficient than a (well maintained and lubricated) chain.
Thoughts on the Split Belt? Seems to be a more practical solution to the frame compatibility issue for the average person, if the durability is on par with a standard belt
You can get split belts now. they have a very deep V where you glue them together. DISCLAIMER: I haven't tried them. :) They just have me curious. I'd love to convert my old bike to belt.
Thanks for the long list of questions and comprehensive and clear answers, CyclingAbout. I've been taking notes, particularly on torque and mud. :)
Very informative video, thanks Alee! I did not expect gear hubs to be (slightly) more efficient than gearboxes...they're probably still lighter, too? I've been lusting for a gearbox bike mostly for the better weight distribution, but given I don't do downhill mountain biking or anything that extreme, gear hubs are probably still the best option for me. Way more affordable, too.
Gear hubs are lighter and can be more efficient too. The weight distribution doesn't matter too much until you head off-road. And even then, the higher hub weight never really bothered me on a hardtail (I'd definitely recommend a gearbox for full sus).
It's a lovely day when Alee uploads a long, nerdy video on drivetrains😅😅😊😊
Exactly. I love this video format.
Full suspension systems have proven to be vital for me, and climbing hills and shock absorption has been vital in my rides. I'm fascinated by this system. I can see why it is far more proficient. The chain and shifting has been my biggest issue. Going from lowest gear and up. The slack it tends to have, and the chain slipping is more hazardous than anything I've noticed. Do you have any videos on disk breaks or a stronger alternative?
Another belt drive bike you failed to mention is the Riese & Muller Delite Mountain Rohloff. It's also an ebike. Just wish it weren't so expensive.
More expensive for the hub gears I bet.
Considering how simple and readily available current chains are, I’ll keep what I’ve already got.
Thank you for going through this. So many questions answered with clear explanations and the experience to back it up.
Interesting video. I'm looking to make a DIY bike and i feel like i cannot simply source a frame that supports belt. All of them are e-mtb frames with dual suspensions. Has anyone tried for example to pair an IGH with belt and an M620 on a dangfu frame? Is it possible?
Gates said to me it wasn’t recommended. I don’t believe them!
Sure, the belt has to fit some how, and also be adjusted somehow, but what is the big deal? Anyway I plan to retro fit some bikes and build up a quad.
@@spidennis supposedly it's the future of ebikes to have an internal gear hub or gearbox, yet we see no support for these modules. It's also the reason I held myself from building a custom ebike since oem are overpriced to hell. Adaption rate is SO slow. Motor development is also atrociously slow and locked/restricted to silly legislations. In comparison, I have an Esk-8. Those things are rockets. Lots of options for unrestricted ESC's, powerful motors 3000watt x2 , 60km/h+ speeds. Belts system were developed so fast, and within a year or 2 of becoming a popular EV we had a couple of oems develop internal gear drives. Insane how slow and overpriced ebike development is taking into account how popular an ebike is
I love my CDX belt with my Rohloff Speedhub. Both going strong in my cargobike 💪
Have you tried comparing specifically some of the best e-bike chains vs belts?
In exchange for a weight penalty, ebike chains have evolved a lot lately, improving the durability to withstand the forces a motor puts them through.
We have 2 different customers that did arround 50 thousand km on a beltsystem with a bosch performance engine / enviolo hub. absolut crazy! we sell belt bikes nearly every day in our shop. i also have a touring and enduro bike with belt. will never go back!
4.57 - the English Cycles Hardtail - on of the most beautyful bikes I have ever seen! Can't find it in the gallery at English Cycles. Are there some more information available? Thx in advance!
Found it :-) But only one Pic 😞
Expensive:(
Not per kilometers
Exactly £20minimum for a new chain 1-2 times a year over 3-7 years on a drivetrain...
@@thebellsfishmonger no £12
@@okantichrist can't get a chain for my bike for less than £20 like, but obviously depends on the model/gear type your running.
@@funkintonbeardoper my wallet, yes they are
Interesting thought for recumbents as I always get oil stains on my leg. I wonder if they make them long enough as I can certainly replace the back gears with an internal hub.
gates makes a 250 teeth, 2 metre long one (~6 feet) for tandems but even that might not be long enough. i've seen this done with two belts with a midway pair of transfer pullies
@@markifi My Optima baron chain is 2.7 chains long :D
@@LH1980XX that's a neat looking bike. even your hipothetical mid-way pulleys would need to be able to be shifted front to back to tension the two belts and i'd guess that cantilevered structure on the back probably has too much flex to work with a belt? no need for frame opening though. i've tried an optima orca once. freaky experience having to re-learn riding after so much time on upright bicycles, but interesting nonetheless
Nice system. Till Gates decides to discontinue the system that came on your bike and then you can't get a replacement belt. The CDC belt is no longer made. I have a Scott Sub 10, bought in 2016. AFter 15k miles the belt broke. It took me months to find a belt and I had to have it shipped from Europe. Next time I need a belt, I am not sure where I will get it. Pretty sad.
Yes, and changing the sprockets to CDX is expensive. Also you need special tools to do it.
1:50 wow. Ok strength is confirmed ! The wear is amazing. What is in the belt that would wear out the SS and Alloy gears? Chain I can see - metal on metal.
I don’t think they don’t use these in Tour de France because of “weight”(some used heavy retractable MTB seatposts), that can be compensated but it’s due to the fact that belts have A Lot more resistance than an oiled chain
I think that these belts couldnt handle high power outputs, i cant believe they wouldnt slip
@@szaka9395 These belts have braided metal cables inside, like car tow cables. These are used in motorcycles, cars, powerful E-MTBs exactly because these can take more abuse. The issue is that it adds more resistance.
I have a Bulls ebike with a belt drive and I love it. I recently got a squeak in my belt and have tried a couple of thing to no avail. Your suggestion about Treadmill Lubricant is well timed and I recently ordered a bottle. I’ll let you know 😊
i can't help to think a full chaincase with a fast chain would still beat anything else
its actually ridiculous that the chain and sprockets arent enclosed... it looks so lame. right. but more areodynamic... you dont use your bike. just something simple like this would make it last eons longer and its just waiting on a simple patent that is quick to take on or off.
@@wtfvids3472 with the right shape for single speed, it could even be more aerodynamic I think. Those hundred little holes in a chain probably drag around a fair bit of turbulence, versus one large blob with a NACA airfoil with a very tight hole on the side for a crank and the hub. (all of this is nothing compared to loose clothing, but hey)
What a brilliant balanced overview. Just what the cyclist needs.
Now what are the options for a cyclist who likes doing sportives and fondos, and may also ride to work?
I don't think there is a huge difference between the tech on a timing belt vs bike belt drive. I think the big difference is the relative size. If bike chains were as wide and thick as a timing chain they would likely never break, and if they were in a filtered oil bath they would never wear out.
I've just ordered a Olsen titanium frame bike with a Pinion gear box & gates drive It's a lot lighter than my Thorn Nomad with a Rohloff .For me the weight is only an issue when it comes to lifting it over gates & fences but at 59 I'm trying to look after my back .
Very comphrehensive info thanks!
Now to search for a belt drive gravel bike...
There aren't too many but Priority, Nicolai, Avaghon, Shand, Tout Terrain, and Velotraum come to mind. More if you prefer flat bars...
Spot brand Colorado US
@@Cyclingabout you're just pushing two topics all the time. flat bars and belt drive.
it's more like you see cycling only as "let's explore the world! 🤘"
the guy says gravel, you say if you prefer flat bars. no, no bicycle with flat bars can be called gravel. a tractor can also be on mountain trails, I don't call it MTB.
I've had a belt drive bike (rolloff&gates) for 2 years, and I've snapped two belts just commuting around town. For me, it is a common occurrence. You have to go to a bike shop that has a lot of experience working with belt drives, or else the mechanic won't get the tension right. And if the mechanics can't get it right, good luck trying to get the tension right on your own!
Very useful video in-depth analysis! Thank you for your work.
When I visited China a few years ago, I found in a pile of mobikes on the sidewalk, one with a breoken wheel lock. It was a simple design with a belt drive and airless tires.
It was a very ok bike on flat Beijing pavement and I couldn't help but think "Gee, if someone sold a slightly nicer version in the US, I would pay $200 for it instead of the $26 they probably cost a piece here."
Great Video. My older bike has the cheap one Gates belt. 12000km and 6 years. Bike feels like new. Maintance: I've set up the tension after 2000km. It tooks 10 minutes. I also like belts.
For commuting bicycles, belt drives are ok. However, having owned a belt driven bike, they are not perfect.
I’ve had a belt snap, they have a much higher resistance to chains and are not simple to fix when they go wrong. Chains are also super compact, and if endurance riding, you can carry two or three spares with ease and always find a shop to repair a chain drivetrain.
On your comment regarding gears, I thought the same too. Gearboxes on a commuting bike would be better, but how wrong was that! I found them to be difficult to adjust, they coped badly with any power, and when they did go wrong, it was usually catastrophic. If you need to replace one, it takes forever and costs a small fortune.
Derailleurs are simple to replace, cheap to find.
I also didn’t find them much cleaner either. They still hold onto dirt and grime and are no cleaner than a well maintained chain.
On that last point you are right. But if you don’t maintain your chain, the likelihood is you also don’t oil it, so it’ll be bone dry and as clean as the belt.
All in all, the concept is nice, but the execution and reality of a belt drive is not a good one IMHO.
One last thing on cost. Chain breaker tools cost about €15 for a Topeak one. And a chain is about €25 for a medium level one.
Finally in terms of cost per km. I have an Ultegra chain that’s lasted me over 15,000km and is still going strong. It’s all about how you maintain it.
I been running the same Gates CDX belt on my belt drive mountain bike since 2015 in harsh conditions. The front pulley shows some wear now but still going strong. The best part is when I get home caked in sticky river-bottom mud/clay - I just hose it down and hang it up to dry. No lube. Running it with a Rohloff. The belt saves about a pound. The planetary geared hub adds the pound back on. But I get 14 speeds, and can shift without pedaling which is super handy for winter cycling in MN. Also, and nobody mentions this fact, the 14 gears ratios are almost perfectly linear in spacing. A double shift at the bottom of the range advances the gain ratio (see Sheldon Brown for why this is so significant) the same as at the top of the range - not so with cassettes, which usually jump significantly between three largest cogs to limit the number of huge rear cogs in the cassette. The one con, besides price (less of a factor now than 10 years ago), is that the weight of the heavier geared hub is out at the end of the wheelbase, so I do notice a heavier feeling rear end (the bike’s rear end mine is skinny). But the belt is so reliable I think it’s the best setup for bike packing and true CX MTB touring. No need to stow extra chain, chain tool, lube, etc. And virtually 0 maintenance, especially in winter in MN that is a huge plus. No more rusty chain and no more frozen gears or shifters. My frame is a Ventana Comandante Último w/ XTR cranks, 29” Stans Crest MK3 rims and a 100mm Lefty front fork. Bike weighs in at 25lbs w Maxis Icon tires - 2lbs heavier w winter studded tires.
I think that belt dissipates more energy than a chain to bend, it also stretches a little bit more than a steel chain. This makes the system more inefficient than a rigid chain.
What is the single sided bike in the thumbnail?
glad you mentioned the nm belts are limited to. i prefer bosch powered bikes (85nm torque) and i can put up to 400watts of power down in short bursts, i bet a lot of people can. thanks again.
There is one thing I don’t understand. How come that according to Gates bending the belt backwards causes damage to the belt while at the same time there are complete bike setups in which the belt is being bent backwards. I even saw images of these setups on the Gates website. Does it or does it not cause damage?
Bending a belt a certain number of degrees backward will not damage the internal tensile cords, and this is the case on the bikes you've seen on the Gates website. But bend it too far and your belt loses all its strength, so it's advisable not to try to find the limit...
Belts just have different problems. Since you have to use a gearbox or planetary hub, your gear ratios available are far fewer, and very difficult to change. Also, usually way more friction.
And way more tension which wears down the bottom bracket and rear hubs a lot faster than a chain does.
That's very cool! Even when I was in grade 7, there were weeks that I biked 1000 km/week. I've torn apart countless chains, even high quality ones...Maybe that would finally solve my problems. You can't speed up too hard when you worry about a chain snapping or pedal busting off.
One gates belt is almost 100€. I can get 10 11 speed chains for that. A chain lasts me between 10000-15000 kilometers. The cost per Kilometer is much higher on a belt driven bicycle, even if I assume the highest service live of 40000 kilometers. It's cool tech certainly, too expensive for me. Wheels to Wander channel have shown you can travel the world just as good on a 26 inch 90s mountain bike. If you need the extra comfort a belt drive gives you, more power to you.
What chain do you use? I use the recommended Shimano for my 8 speed Nexus, and I've to change it every 5000km aprox because it loses so much tension that it hangs noticeable low
There are plastic casings which used with single speed bicycles mostly, but still it posible to use such device with belt(theoretically, at least construction don't prevent it). If so then belt will last even longer... Well, in case if You don't fear around hundred grams of additional wight on Your bike.
I consider grease stains on legs and hands a badge of honour.
I consider them a nuisance especially if I'm trying to eat a sandwich but got grease on my hands
Ok boomer
Excellent video. I've learnt so much about Belt Drives. Always found them intriguing but never took the time to learn until now. Now I wish I'd bought a Belt drive bike.. Thanks for sharing your passion and knowledge in this quality video @cyclingabout
Thanks for the kind comment!
Shame that you cant just swap chain drive to belts. Buying new very expensive bike just to have belt is too much. I will rather stay with chain and change it maybe 2 or 3 times, its super easy anyway so not big deal.
Any thoughts on converting the timing chain to a belt on my tandem. The wear is minimal as the gear ratio is 1:1. Currently I use two 42 teeth chainrings.
🙏🏻