The answer for anyone starting out is don't ask questions online or pay attention to popular TH-cam heroes. You will be overwhelmed with misinformation. It's the land of the blind leading the even more blind.
I think that the gray area is the future. As nice as it would be to believe that science has reached the point where we understand everything, the truth of the matter is we are just starting to scratch the surface on understanding each individual species and the individual animals within the species. It is extremely dangerous to get in the mindset that we actually know what we're doing now because the people who develop that mindset on the techniques that are popular right now are the people who hang on to them for decades in the future even when new information comes out and shows otherwise. I spent about 25 years lurking because I wasn't in a position where I could keep my own animals, since actually finally being in a position where I felt comfortable to keep my own animals and applying scientific techniques to improving their care, I have introduced a lot of new concepts that have turned out to hold true across many other people trying those experiments out. I am not saying that I am something special here, I'm saying that there's a ton of room for furthering our understanding of these animals and we're just going to keep uncovering more the deeper we look. If we were truly at the point where we understood everything, I would not have uncovered multiple pieces of information that were previously missing in my first year of keeping. I've been keeping for several years now and I continue to uncover new behaviors, new information about health, new information about enclosures. And when I say new information, I really do mean new as in I have not seen this information anywhere. I'm just working with one species, multiply that by the hundreds if not thousands currently in captivity. The key is humility for all of us. We have so much to learn. I look everyday to see if my findings will be overturned and I'm ready to change my practices based on new information at all times. I sincerely hope that someday the standard will be understanding the process of becoming a good caretaker instead of following a specific script. I adore your podcast by the way. I need to catch up and a few episodes behind, but you have consistently been bringing people on who talk about the hard questions and bring up our need for further information which is the most important thing that the reptile community needs as a culture right now so thank you for that.
This is an excellent episode. Great talk. One thing that I’d like to point out is that, yes, many snakes are found under logs, tin, leaves etc, but just because they’re resting there, doesn’t mean that’s where they remain for the duration of their lives, nor does it mean they were born there. They had to come from somewhere. The argument I constantly hear in regards to keeping ball pythons in shoebox racks is that “they live in termite mounds”, ok let’s say that’s 100% true, 1. then how did the species spread throughout Western Africa if they only lived in the mounds? 2. How large is an African termite mound? Answer is that some of them are easily as large as a house with a multitude of tunnels and chambers within, certainly a far cray from a 10 gal tub. And 3. There’s a lot of information and videos out there showing wild BPs in trees, under vegetation, etc. So that argument kinda falls flat. Many species of snakes are nocturnal, so when people say they “never leave their hide” I have to wonder if they’re taking the time to observe them at night, when the animals are normally awake and active. You guys are 100% correct that each animal is it’s one individual that has its own unique personality and behaviors that will differ from others of their species, understanding that nuance is important when considering how they are kept.
I was reading the bio-activity anf the theory if wild re-creation, when I stumbled upon this. I thought it was fitting with the contents of this episode. "This will be an issue that causes arguments for a long time to come, yet old habits and thought processes die hard as it were. There is a definite "we have done it this way for decades and everything is fine" and "we must provide the best for our species and mimic the wild in doing so" split in the hobby which can actually become quite militant in some sectors."
I'm sitting here in camp neither of those and yeah it's it's interesting and probably going to go on for a long time. I'm in camp figure out the animal's behavior and then give them options and then use that information to tailor the enclosure however the animal ends up deciding. My enclosures are extremely unique.
Great topic and great points here! I used to often feel a lot of owners guilt for not having these luxury looking decked-out bioactive setups, at the end of the day though I know i'm meeting the needs of all my animals to the best of my ability and always looking for new forms of improvement and at the end of the day that's what matters most! Over the past years i've stuck to my naturalistic keeping, improving in simple ways and it's done me and my animals wonders- I worked up to more frequent spot cleanings and rearrangements with enrichment opportunities, increased diet variety, increased enclosure clutter (more stones, hides, branches, vines, etc.), starting utilizing more LED lighting, etc.! More planned to come but it's been a great start and really hasn't hit my bank account at all lol
Good, progressive husbandry advice should be starting at the "Point of sale". I'm hearing of increasing numbers of breeders and pet stores who do background checks before selling livestock. This is encouraging, but more needs to be happening with respect to sharing good information in a more palatable way (so as not to deter, humiliate, or intimidate) The more we learn about the behavioural repertoires and biological needs of our favorite pets, the more we should be encouraging a captive regime that supports them to thrive. 'Not suffering' and 'surviving' are just not good enough a goal. Especially not when the anti-exotic pet campaigners are on our necks. As an "old school" keeper, I often (upon reflection) subjected my herp pets to substandard conditions (light, heat, space, humidity, diet, etc) in pursuit of "getting it right". I/we(?) were often looking for answers in the wrong places. When I acknowledged and addressed my own arrogance and cognitive dissonance and started focusing on learning from in situ research and science, it became easier for me to admit when I had gotten things wrong and become open to ideas from unlikely places. Just because I kept herps for 38 years, doesnt mean i was doing it right (or advancing positively in important aspects). I am by NO means an expert, but I'm sure I have ideas worth sharing, like everyone else.
So many great points were made here. I so appreciate your thoughts on the growth of the community for new reptile keepers. As a new reptile owner, it’s very refreshing to hear you speak about how I can expand my collection in a practical, cost effective manner. Thank you so much!
With the point about keeping baby snakes in large enclosures, there is a lot of nuance to the answer. I recently got a baby Eastern kingsnake and for the first week I kept him in a quarantine tub with the floor space of about a 10 gallon glass terrarium. Within the first day he spent hours running up and down the length of the tub, pacing all over, and rubbing his face against the plastic. I decided to put this 12 inch baby kingsnake into a 40 gallon enclosure, since it actually had the tightest and most secure lid of any of the glass enclosures I had, and when I’m home I have no trouble finding him because he’s always out. I also immediately fixed the enclosure with UVB and a halogen. Every day he’s usually charging around the enclosure, if I need to make sure he hasn’t escaped I open the change and start clanging his feeding tongs and he comes out immediately. He also basks under both lamps and eats like a dog. My other two snakes are boas, so I wasn’t prepared for such an energetic and rambunctious snake when I got my kingsnake, but even my boas utilize space when I give it to them. One of the boas I have is a Kenyan sand boa, and he is currently a subadult and only 16” yet lives in a 4x2x2. In the afternoon he’s always out crawling around, and even during the day I usually see him poking his head out of the substrate in different parts of the enclosure. When he was 6” long I kept him in a 20 gallon long and basically had no issue either. I think it’s a lot about the individual snake you have, but even then I think there certainly is a way to keep baby snakes in large enclosures correctly, even if it’s somewhat more difficult. Those baby snakes will bask and crawl around and exhibit natural behavior and benefit as much as any older snake. One thing I do to make it easier to find them in large enclosures is give them less substrate. If I have my kingsnake or sand boa 4” of soil or aspen bedding as babies I’d never be able to find them in hiding. But instead I give them like 1” or less of substrate, enough to burrow but not so that I have to shovel through tons of substrate to find them. When I start poking through the enclosure either they immediately pop their heads out or twitch under the substrate and just like that I’ve located them.
I got a rehomed ball python the lady had her in a 10 gallon for 6 yrs and I honestly think she didn’t know anything , 1 of those situations where she just inherited her . But man she probably is the most active ball python I have , climbing up everything . Good episode though and look forward to what you got next
I’m curious what time of day/night you’re observing your Morelia bredli? I work with 40 in my behavior lab and they are highly active and utilize a lot of space if given the opportunity during the evenings and at night. Most of mine glass surf and move around their enclosures for several hours all night until morning and all but a handful will readily come out and roam the work area for hours if allowed. During the day they do rest in one spot but that is merely a snapshot of their time budget.
Hi Lori, Bataar, my Bredli, is an incredibly calm animal and has always been a bit of a perch potato. He does exhibit the general calm, tractable nature the species is known for, but he is absolutely my least active Morelia. I can honestly say any of my Coastals, Darwins, or Papuans display more roaming and interaction with their environment than he does, regardless of time of day. I've been lucky enough to be able to regularly check my collection around the clock and observe many of them throughout the night, and obviously throughout the day. He's always had a bit of a penchant for staying in his hide all day, then he drapes along two perches at night when he's nearing feeding. To say he's entirely inactive is not true, but out of my group of Morelia, he is by far my laziest boy. You do have a much larger pool of bredli to observe than my lone boy, but he's honestly been such a lazy snake for years!
Fantastic episode! In some ways I felt like you were speaking to me. I've been planning to be more active in the community for a while, but a big thing holding me back is exactly what you discussed here. Most of my animals are not yet in what I envision will be their final enclosures, and even though they are still well cared for, I fear being told I'm not doing good enough. Transitioning from old keeping methods to new as a breeder takes so much more money and time than people realize. I want to keep doing better when I have more money and stability as we all continue to evolve in herpetoculture. I feel seen, thank you.
As a ‘new age’ keeper, I have to say that I find the idolization of ‘old school’ keepers a tad troublesome since, while some have undoubtedly done wonders for the hobby, many-many more are keeping their animals in poor conditions (tiny enclosures, heat rocks, tape in enclosures, no substrate etc.) and refusing to change because “I’vE BeEn KEePinG sInCe tHe 80s”. Moving on, I’m going to be honest here by saying: if high husbandry standards are being interpreted as a form of gatekeeping that is scaring people away - then so be it. I’m totally fine with that. In fact, I’d encourage it, though I take issue with the insinuation that in doing so I and others advocating for increased husbandry standards are snobs or elitist. There are already hundreds upon thousands of people who are keeping their animals in subpar conditions because “I want it, therefore I should own it.” And in my personal opinion, accepting and encouraging bare minimum standards in order to appeal to a wider audience is just not OK. I think that the best way to encourage interest, while also doing justice to the animals themselves, is to put emphasis on smaller species that are cheaper to house and thus more realistically kept in captivity. From 41:00 onward, I was pretty horrified by that entire discussion. You can’t take a dog that’s been kept in a small dark room all its life and immediately throw it outside and expect it to thrive. Snakes are no different in that regard and continuing to keep a snake in a shitty enclosure because that’s what it’s used to, is so incredibly wrong. It would have been fine if you’d gone on to mention that those animals would need to be slowly introduced to larger and more enriched surroundings, but at 57:40 now I’ve yet to hear it and, honestly, I’m more than a bit bothered by this point so for now I won’t be finishing the video. I will say that I can see the points that you are trying to make. But the way that some of them have been communicated is decidedly… off, from my perspective.
I will copy and paste my response from a similar criticism below. You can see Chris's response in the thread as well, if interested (the original comment was posted by Cait, purple-ish display picture). I personally believe this episode's topic has a tendency to spark a knee-jerk reaction from the "advancing side". I have about 350 hrs worth of content dedicated to pushing reptile husbandry forward, so I think my thoughts on this topic should be clear. See my response below: _Thanks for watching the episode and sharing your thoughts. I can certainly understand your frustration. Personally I don’t think this episode or guest was promoting minimalistic keeping. At the heart of this conversation (from my perspective) is acknowledging that there are keepers out there who want to better by their animals but don’t have the means to do so. These keepers are often intimidated to seek guidance for fear of reprisal and when they do, are accused of being cruel to their animals due to inadequate care. If these keepers are afraid to ask questions and embarrassed to share their current “starting point”, then “we” (the advancing community) have failed. Whether we agree with the “elitist” label or not, that is how we are often seen. It’s worth reflecting on why that might be. Should these keepers have thought about the responsibility of caring for their reptile before acquiring it? YES. But how many of us actually did? Many keepers (including me) purchased their reptiles before fully grasping the significance of the responsibility. Should we chastise those keepers until they disappear (and so to their animals). Or should we come to terms with the fact that many of us aren’t able to keep idealistically and therefore should strive to help come up with husbandry methods that can act to offset other husbandry short comings (using a jungle gym for exercise, rather than upgrading to a massive enclosure for example). I think it’s important to help people improve their care by treating them respectfully and help come up with solutions for them._
Well stated on both sides, & all the input is GREATLY appreciated!! I started as ‘an old school’ keeper (as I was from the era where if you wanted a reptile, you had to FIND IT!! … &, there were zero pet reptile products.) ok, I was born in 1975 & I was born with Snapping Turtles (my dad kept some rescues since before I was born) & I have lived every second of my life obsessed with Common Snapping turtles!! (Still applies today.) I am very excited about how much interest there is today in the Reptile hobby, & I hope folks will continue to support each other in the most positive ways possible!!!😊
Such an interesting episode, I absolutely loved it, so many things I want to respond to but I know it would just make a huge paragraph and we don't want that haha. I will say though, taking into account the individual animal instead of the general guide for the species is so important, and it's great that we're reminded of that in this podcast. Care guides are just guide lines, they're a starting point, it's then up to us to see what each animal actually wants. I have five snakes, each one has their personalities and I've adapted their environment and my behaviour towards them accordingly, by testing things out and seeing how they respond. Thanks a bunch for these podcasts, they're always awesome.
As with all the pets I've had over my lifetime,the grey area is best and go from there only last year,three years after my last house bunny did I finally venture into ,to me,the TERRIFYING arena of reptile keeping after over one year of research. I was so convinced whatever I got was going to up and die. But when I got the gargoyle gecko,I realized the set up worked like an aquarium...In his case,it's vertical,but the concept is the same. It was a walk in the park after that. After six months of keeping him,I got a larger enclosure and went bioactive cause I love plants. The plant lights are on a timer but I hand mist cause I like the extra interaction with the habitat. Now to domestication.I read of the Russian silver fox project and I would agree with you that both humans domesticating certain species and the 4 species you mentioned are at the top of the list. Look at the carrot tail leo,note the white on the tail,white on the feet,face and sometimes the white stripe up the forehead...That's also what happened with the silver foxes as the breeders kept selecting for tameness. I'd reall enjoy you doing a series on domestication involving these 4 species of reptiles. I would find it very fascinating..
Really enjoyed this episode. I will 100% agree, that there is a grey area when it comes to enclosure sizes. But to some extend, I find myself generally on the bigger is better side of the arguement. While I agree, that this very much depends on the species and the individual animal, as someone who mainly keeps fish, having an enclosure that is shorter than the animal living in it is kinda strange to me. And to some degree, especially starting off young snakes in really dark enclosed spaces may actually be very much the environment hatchlings will seek out and instinctively feel the most secure in. But at what point will that animal have the tendency to start exploring the wider world, be it due to hunger or just generally due to an urge for more space. Because there is very much the problem that the longer an animal has been in a specific environment, the more stress alterations will cause when they occur. Thats where I think Lori Torrini is pretty much on point, that a important part of that transition is keeping the animal in a familiar environment, but gradually giving it access to a more enriching environment, which you also touched on in this conversation. Especially with ball pythons, if they have been kept in a tub thats basically dark 24/7 except for cleaning and feeding, just a day night cycle is something completely unfamiliar to the animal. If the animal ends up never leaving the tub, fine, but I dont think thats an arguement for potentially depriving the animal of the ability to move. And I also think, thats where especially reptile breeders are lacking, because I have a feeling many would not necessarily know how to transition their animal from a tub to a bigger enclosure with reliable success. Same with prices for the enclosures. A viv for a baby can be cheap, but I feel like many breeders are dependent on selling animals and thats kinda it. If a breeder has resources on hand that enable them to say, hey, this animal needs a fairly big enclosure in 2 or 3 years and here is how you can maybe build a good one yourself on the cheap if need be, that would probably go a long way. And as much as I am against pricing people out of an awesome hobby, being able to give ballpark figures what the upkeep is gonna cost long term may actually help people who work on the rescue side of the hobby as well as the animals. So yeah, those are my general thoughts on that whole topic and im glad i can go back to binging new episodes of this podcast :)
I really appreciate this discussion. I am in AHH, and I have really disengaged with and considered leaving it because of alot of what was discussed here. Thank you both for addressing this topic in such a level-headed way. Chris especially expressed alot of the concerns I've been having with the advanced husbandry movement.
I think as we get better at training these animals and setting up basic communication with them in the same way that we have basic communication with dogs and cats through mutual understanding and consistent signaling, we will actually be able to identify better when an animal has adequate space based on their interest in coming out and interacting with additional stimulation sources. I have after quite a while finally reached the point where my Western hognose does not ask to come out anymore because she actually has enough stimulation in her enclosure that it is rarely if ever an interest to her. That said she can still come out whenever she likes and I will offer to take her out regularly and sometimes I will insist that she comes out so that I can do deeper level cleaning, but she is no longer desperate to come out when I come home on some days which is I think something that speaks volumes. In all honestly the size that worked for this what smaller than I was expecting but did include a heck of a lot of exercise options which I think may be very key. As she continues to grow I will likely need to continue to increase the size and range of experiences for her. It is possible that she will become bored with what I have provided with her after a few months or a few years. Time will tell. The better we get at reading our animals and giving them an opportunity to actually indicate what they would like, the better we can get at ensuring they have proper housing and lifestyle.
To answer your question Dillon... Of COURSE there is a grey area where people get to grow and expand their skillset. Nobody starts out as an expert able to keep the most advanced species or use the most 'advanced' or difficult techniques. It is like everything in life - there has to be a gradation as time goes by. And nobody should expect a beginner to know it all or have all the answers or be the perfect keeper. HOWEVER that answer comes with a couple of provisos. First, there does need to be a qualifier to that; how MUCH do we accept a true beginner can ignore at the beginning? What can be pruned or left untiul later and what is needed from the get-go? If you look at, for example, the aquarium hobby, there is an awful lot for the prospective beginner to learn and most shops (at least over here) won't just sell fish to people without proof of a properly maintained aquarium with decent water parameters. An aquarium owner has to learn not just how to set a heater to the right temperature; they need to learn about pH, nitrate and nitrite levels, ammonia levels. The kicker is that most shops offer free water tests and guidance on how to achieve this. I would argue the prospective aquarium keeper has far more to learn and worry about and juggle than the beginner snake or lizard keeper. So with reptiles, as an example. We acknowledge UV is at least beneficial to most, outright necessary to some. Is there an excuse to not use it as a beginner when it is now so easy to access? A beginner Bearded dragon keeper would be expected to use UV as it is 'necessary' - why not a beginner snake keeper where it is only 'beneficial'? What's the excuse there? Is the difficulty in installing a bulb at a certain distance different? At what point is this step reached? Second, there has to be the recognition that there IS a ladder to climb; that one does not just step onto the bottom rung and stay there. Half the arguments and problems I see online are from beginners and amateurs that have been told to do things the 'safe' way and clung to this and refuse to take that step up to the next level. It is one thing to decide not to advance, but too many also like to argue with those who WANT to improve. We have seen it all - 'snakes cannot be kept in large spaces, nocturnal reptiles won't use UV and don't need light, loose substrate causes impaction, reptiles cannot be cohabited - etc etc' Whilst there has to be a pass for newer keepers, there also has to be the insight that if you are starting as a beginner, there IS more to learn and your level of keeping does not just remain 'entry level.' Thirdly - and perhaps most interestingly - I notice a big trend of the newer, younger keepers taking their hobby 'public' and seeking to become 'influencers' or teaching others when they are still beginners themselves. I have watched complete beginners join my group in 2019, ask 'noob' questions and then start their own groups in 2020 after havbing their hand held through this entry period, acting as self-appointed experts and gurus. It is quite a thing to watch. For some reason the gap between people trying to learn as much as they can, and then taking that information and spewing what they have learned so far as gospel to 'educate' others seems to be getting smaller and smaller and smaller - and THAT arrogance causes a lot of problems, misconceptions and folklore! Because how does a complete beginner spot another complete beginner and tell the information apart from that offered by a more experienced keeper? It is all very daunting, even before the difference in mindsets and styles of keeping comes into play! Finally - for me personally I think choice of animal you keep is the most important decision you have to make, and too frequently it is the wrong choice. In my opinion, Bearded dragons and Royal pythons are NOT great beginner species; people overlook the smaller, hardier and easier to keep animals and then provide the least to their Beardie (hot take - a 4x2x2 is not big enough for one). Far better to start with a smaller species. Sadly... many of those species are just not available, especially in the US. Want a Beardie's personality, hardiness and tolerance for handling, but not its size? Get an Orange-spotted Agama (Stellagama stellio picea). Want a cool, colourful and super hardy small snake? Get a Dione's or Twin-Spotted rat snake, or a Sand boa, or a House snake, or any one of a hundred other easy to keep species that is not a Royal python. In a way, the hobby has funnelled beginners into choosing one of maybe six to ten species as a first pet when there may be species harder to find but more suited to being kept.... Just a few thoughts.
I completely agree with everything you’ve said here, Francis. In fact, I recommended the same thing in a private conversation regarding beginner species… Making the point that maybe snakes that reach lengths of 5 feet and lizards that can reach length of 2 feet shouldn’t be considered starter pets. Smaller species, and ones that don’t live quite as long would make better candidates. From my perspective, this episode is actually more directed to people who are already keeping rather than those who are looking to start their reptile keeping journey. In an ideal world, we can get beginners started on the right foot with proper information. However, realistically, many keepers, start with their animal first, and if we’re lucky, they begin investigating better her husbandry methods down the road (think people purchasing from big box stores, for example). So in my mind, this episode is really directed towards individuals who want to do better, will eventually do better, but maybe are not currently in the position to do so. Hopefully this conversation makes them realize they are not “evil or cruel“ for not having an ideal set up, but instead motivate them to investigate ways to supplement their current care to offset their shortcomings. Like the jungle gyms that Lori uses, for example
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast I understand your point and I do agree to an extent... but from experience 'people-watching' online for a few decades now, I think there is a VERY fine line between 'acknowledging more is required and wanting to do better' and 'becoming complacent, sitting in that rut and making excuses.' So sure, of course individuals that want to do better and eventually will do better are not 'evil or cruel' but there definitely should be emphasis on motivating them rather than accepting it. In my opinion. Otherwise, nothing moves forward. And sure, a lot of people naturally get very defensive about that - but if you remove all emotion it does not change that fact. I would also say, it is common to see people 'acknowledging more is required and wanting to do better' still going out and buying new pets before making the improvements for their old ones. I guess I see more of the latter than the former, now I think about it. So I think we should be understanding but that should not put a stop toward reaching toward improvement in the community. To my mind, if the keeper can afford new animals, they should focus on improvement for the old ones first. Others may disagree.
Yes, I completely agree. I was having a very similar discussion with another AHH admin. I think those of you have had to deal with the absolutely insane things that happen on Facebook have different perspective than me who essentially only deals with a podcast audience. I’ll copy and paste a message. I sent to the other admin below that I think is really important/relevant: Something to remember with the podcast is- The folks who listen to it are virtually ALL on "our" side. Whether their actual care is where they want it to be, their hearts and minds are in the right place. They are all dedicated to progressing towards a "gold standard". You won't find anyone listening to the show looking for short cuts or using it as an excuse to be complacent. The listeners quite often update me immediately with photos when they’ve made upgrades. In hindsight, I completely understand the reaction from people like yourself who are having to deal with ridiculous things on FB (one of the reasons I am so absent there). You TOTALLY have reason to have an initial reaction of "WTF! the idiots will use this message to continue to be idiots" lol The podcast is somewhat "shielded" from this. People who strive to do the bare minimum have ZERO interest in spending 1-2 hours listening to a weekly podcast. Hopefully it is comforting to know, that the messages presented on the show almost always fall on the right ears. I think this is the main reason I don't EVER get Rack People attacking me in the TH-cam comments, they don't show up for the discussions. Ever. As the producer of the show, this is something I'm privy to that is probably less obvious to the listeners.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast that is completely fair, and understandable. I cannot deny I thought 'luck b*t*rd' as I read that haha. I am glad you recognise the difference as well between producing the podcast today, and the amount of acrimony some of us had to go through just to get our points across back when the hobby did not want to hear it. In some cases it took a huge amount of determination and sheer bloody-minded stubborness to get information across arguments that sometimes lasted days and weeks. It is fair to say entire waves of people took up the cause and got mentally burnt out by the constant arguments. It genuinely does makes me happy these days to see so many newer, younger keepers doing so well, coming out with such well-researched, well-polished videos and being paragons of better husbandry such as yourself, Joe, Liam and a great many others. It does make me feel the movement to 'take back' the hobby from the travesty the mainstream community zeitgeist became in the late 1990s through to the early 2010s has indeed been a successful one. It truly is in the hands of the next generation now. When I first came online in 2004 and started talking about my own methods of keeping - gained through experience catching and watching the animals, and many, many years of trial and error - I was positively laughed out of the room when I talked about geckos and snakes basking under UV, or snake enclosures at least as long as the snake is, or using three different bulbs in one enclosure for different things. In many cases by keepers that had never experienced the animals in the wild, only as captive bred specimens bred in racks. Now, not only is it not seen as 'odd' or 'fringe' to provide this, along with bigger, more considered enclosures that incorporate different forms of enrichment, it is becoming the norm in many cases. We have seen and witnessed this change, in real time. Perhaps it is not as evident over in America due to cultural and infrastructural differences in the hobby, as well as its size, but here in the UK we have seen a DRASTIC improvement in the welfare and visibility of good keeping in just nine years. A total about face! (We still have a way to go though). Keep up the good work!
the human conveniece bias leans toward the smallest possible enclosure, so ppl who try to raise that minimum is good. my experience is when you tell people a 40gal is the minimum they will get a 20 lol
That doesn't make it ok. Just like when in dendrobate group they say that the frogs can't swim just because they think a water feature is too hard to keep for a beginner. You just end up with an entire generation who belive wrong info. Plus, you also have regulation by law. At some point it might append that you will have minimum in the law, just like Swiss. Since the politics know nothing, they will ear info that is the most pushed and you might end up with an obligated minimum that is absolutely not a minimum.
Good Topic that really needed talking about.. i have been keeping for 18 years since i was 14 I'm uk based. my take on racks is i get that they are needed and important for breeding on larger scale but on the same hand how is breeding so many and keeping them in tiny draws any different to puppy mills ? where as a litter is a litter of cats or dogs but its a choice to hatch all 10 to 20 + eggs. they are willingly almost breeding outside their means.... my friend got a leo from a well known breeder who was all over the online scenes. this poor little girl went into the recommended 3 foot tank.. she didn't eat at all she never moved. we were never told she was rack raised till she enquired if she had ever even eaten.... her tank ended up just being a maze of boxes and tubes totally hidden it was the only way she would eat. she was essentially Agoraphobic. this happening is i think alot more common than people care to talk about. and in some cases i think explained away by failure to thrive...
I agree entirely. Certain lineages of certain species are absolutely domesticated and are very different from their wild counterparts, and I feel that often isn't taken into consideration. Of course some individuals thrive with complexity, but I've seen many cases where that isn't the case, sadly.
This topic is particularly tricky for me as I’m advancing my herpetoculture collection. I’ve owned reptiles and amphibians for the last 10 years, and I can honestly say I’ve only started doing it properly in the last 5. I’ve dedicated thousands of dollars towards two animals: a pacman frog and a created gecko over the course of those 5 years and I’m only finally satisfied with their current enclosures. That being said, I want to expand into something more challenging and large bodied, but my new standards have made it impossible for me to pick a new animal or evaluate how I should set it up. I want to keep the same level of excellence and high standard care, but getting animals much larger than a gecko to my standards is seriously challenging. My budget just keeps getting bigger and bigger to accommodate animals that could still be comfortably accommodated at a fraction of the cost-I just can’t view it as anything other than a shortcut. It’s seriously frustrating to know that everything is an option yet I’ll never be satisfied with how I keep anything.
When I got my first ball python she wasn't kept in the best care for a few years until I actually started doing more research but then encountered some very angry people who called me abusive and told me I should rehomed my animal cause of the way I kept her, she was unfortunately on aspen, with a log hide and a water dish, she then moved up to a 40 aand while it wasn't ideal I slowly began making changes thanks to actual helpful people giving me advice on what to do, some even volunteering to send me some stuff for free, she went from Aspen and one hide and water dish to eco earth and cypress mulch mixture with two black hides and fake flower enrichment but recently i moved her into a Christmas tree tote with plenty of fake foliage and on Repti chip, but I still plan to.upgrade and improve more and more! I use what I learned with her with all my other reptiles
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast that's exactly what I believe also, I like to think we are like pokemon, and as silly as that sounds lol I'm referring to the fact that all keepers veteran or novice keep evolving in the ways that they care for there animals, I'm not done at all with my upgrading of enclosures, I plan to eventually move both my ball pythons to 4x2x15s and my baby black rat snake a 4x2x2 since ive been observing how much he enjoys climbing and exploring high places, I'm also still researching other ways to give my animals the enrichment they very well deserve
As an "old schooler" who started out keeping what he could catch in the 1970's, I'd like to confirm that keeping may not have changed as much as you think. Those of us who like seeing animals move around and act like the curious creatures they are always built bigger and better enclosures using whatever we could to make them so, and the folks who had Noah's Arc syndrome just wanted as many animals as they could keep - therefore they justified racks. Back in the 90's/ early 00's, our local reptile club was free to talk about that stuff and no one was judged as evil by whichever camp they were in. Today, when every voice counts, its not a safe place to report anything but the going trend, and you better not talk about your failures or you'll be blasted - at least I was... Also, much of the tech y'all talked about was invented by old-schoolers; remember Bert Langerwerf and Agama International? Maybe not, but he was instrumental in developing modern UV awareness and touting reptile intelligence, although maybe not as highly as Tom C who is next level. Those guys are both a generation older then me, but have done more for the hobby and herps in general than can be imagined by many. I guess what I'm saying is that I think the 2 camps, if there are only 2, are not old-school and modern, but collectors and pet keepers. And while I love the I-net for some things, it really feels like it destroyed the culture of equality that most of us felt as keepers -- used to be if you drove a Jeep, you had a comradery with other Jeepers, same for bikes and reptiles. Now its how superior you are based on the power of clickers, likes, hearts, or whatever. By that metric, the stupid voice counts as much as the intelligent voice and there is only one way for that to go. L:ong rant, but I love what you're doing with these podcasts!
I was one of the arrogant progressives described here. I was determined that my first ever reptile would have a full bioactive enclosure, with sculpted foam and all this great stuff. I did all the research. I made spreadsheets. I used the best practices of the day. I created an incredibly detailed care plan. And then I got mites. (Maybe from a plant not sterilized correctly). That was awful. I tried to get rid of the mites without destroying the enclosure, but I basically had to scrap it and rebuild it. It was a humbling experience. I still keep that first reptile in a bioactive, but not the other ones I've gotten since. Their care needs were different, and the complexity of a bioactive would have prevented me from providing that care.
Thank you for sharing your story, Emma. That is certainly a trap that is easy to fall into, there are plenty of people out there promoting bioactivity as a starting point. As far as I concerned, this can make brand new keepers far too confident and over complicate the entire process (as you learned the hard way). Thank you for watching the episode!
I got mites from a new Corn Snake I adopted, even after a long quarantine!! I used to have 2 breeding pairs, & lots of babies of various ages… took me forever to get rid of them!! (I ended up having to trash everything & start over.) Glad you got them under control- it’s a very stressful experience!!😊
I was in your spot too. I absolutely hated rack keepers, and I looked down on anyone at a level I considered "lower". Not only did I have a mite experience as you did, but I met quite a few rack keepers who have fabulous enriched setups, and some of the healthiest animals I'd ever seen. It was eye opening, and absolutely changed my mindset on so much. Thank you for listening!
Being afraid to show my own setups is so real and i think i go pretty far out for my animals with fully planted (moss and plants) , bioactive, uvb, heating, misting systems and more. But i am afraid that someone will go off and say that im not doing enough .
I've felt the same way, and I've heard a lot from people who are often thinking about getting into the hobby. I do far more than bare bones, but by some standards, I'm not sure anymore 🤣
I Have recently lost my OG leopard gecko he was 18 years old and he passed from heart failure. i had to travel to an exotics vet the only one around in about 50 + miles. so they see alot if not all of Lincolnshire's and even further away reptiles. i kept him the way i always kept him heat mat way and solid flooring. he did so well i had no need to mess with his fundamental setup.. first visit to the vets i was asked about my setup.. and i said yes i know its out dated but.. he was the oldest leopard gecko they had seen if the heat mat and solid flooring was as horrendous as people make out nowadays a species that should live 15+ years should be showing a longer lived generation with the "improvements" to their care when in fact seeing a leopard gecko over the age of 15 is quite rare... so are the improvements really for the animals or for the people and the businesses.. a heat mat can last years and years if well cared for and checked for hot spots etc so one purchase is years where as bulbs.. some heat bulbs your lucky to get 2 months out of and uv minimum every 6 months purchase.. the companies that are pushing for the change are the sellers off the bulbs... sell a £15 heat mat once every couple of years or a £8 basking bulb ever few months plus £15 uv every 6 months... mhmms wonder which one the companies gonna push ?
No one would suggest that a leopard gecko can’t survive in a tub with a heat mat and nothing else. That’s a commonly brought up counter argument, that they “survive” well enough in these enclosures so why change it? But just because they’re surviving doesn’t mean it’s the best method of letting them live. Studies have shown that animals kept in sterile, bare enclosures do more poorly on cognitive tests, and studies have also shown that heat mats are less effective at energizing reptiles than halogen bulbs, and that UVB has substantial health benefits to reptiles. The reason why you see less older geckos who have lived to be 15+ years old who have been kept in naturalistic, ‘advanced’ enclosures is because the major transition to such keeping has only occurred in the last decade or so. 15 years ago the heat mat and tub was the norm, and even nowadays keeping with full spectrum lighting and naturalistic enclosures is hardly the norm.
I prefer at least a shoebox sized , filtered pond , if not a wet filtered bottom Or an actual filtered small fish tank within I have dry setups as well , but , hate water dishes
I think this is a very thought provoking episode. We do have to start thinking about the escape plan - but please don't get too cynical guys. I think mentoring/apprenticeship may need to be a bigger practice.
Thanks for sharing this. This was a great episode. I see too many keepers online getting too big of enclosures because that’s the “standard” then have no idea how to heat it or regulate the environment properly. I continue to say the health of the animal is more important then the size of the enclosure, but idk what the hell is going on today. The internet can be extreme and while I strive to make the biggest and baddest enclosures, I don’t ever expect anyone else to. I’d rather ppl care more about the health of their animal than the size of their enclosure or whatever the case may be. We all grow and as long as we continue to grow then we shouldn’t be blasting ppl for not doing things to this new “standard”. Everyone needs room to grow and learn and keepers should never gate keep new keepers. I mean a lot of us all started by capturing wild caught animals like turtles, frogs, and lizards
It was in a reptiles magazine article by a Amazon tree boa breeder: something to the effect of the only difference he noticed when providing his snakes with uvb was cloudy eye caps.
That’s probably a fairly old article. There was definitely issues with poor quality lighting/lamps in the early 2000s. Those lamps had high levels of blue light and caused eye problems. Today’s lamps from the big name reptile lighting brands (Arcadia, ZooMed) won’t cause those issues
@@AnimalsatHomePodcastI find this very interesting and would like to read more. How many years do we have on these new lights and have they been tested with different pigmentation levels and animals? I have unfortunately seen some animals damaged pretty badly but it took 15 to 20 years for them to develop these problems so I am wondering if we have been able to study this long enough to really know how safe the new lights are. I'm very excited at the prospect of less damaging UVB lights, but a bit skeptical after some of the horrors that I've seen. Male animals ended up rejecting the UVB lights pretty heavily, but I do continue to offer they just immediately run away whenever the lights are on so I keep it minimalistic at this point. I'll have to look into which brands I have currently and the ones that were recommended here. I would love it if you could link some studies but I will go to Google scholar and see what I can find.
Great conversation/episode! So many misinformation and miscommunication are creating a huge division in our community. Red bulbs are bad if used 24/7 not necessarily for basking during the day. Bins/tubs are bad or they have a place for hatchlings, quarantine, super reclusive animals, rehab situations, etc when the interior is appropriately equipped. Enclosure size: bigger is always better or of what I listed above plus how is the enclosure scaped, large and empty isn't better than smaller and completely decked out. The list goes on! The bottom line is there isn't only one way, one size fits all and if you aren't doing it this way then you are wrong. Knowledge is power but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Let's keep advancing our care by doing what works best for each species and each individual animal 🐍🦎💚
Example: "There is some science now that says putting a snake in a dark tub is maybe not the best." By now, do you mean 1965? Captive breeding pioneer Joe Laszlo (San Antonio Zoo) among others advocated using full spectrum lighting, publishing papers, and discussing it during lectures in the 60s and 70s. Many keepers experimented with lighting back then. The thing about the plug-and-play generation is that they are arrogant in thinking that they are "advancing" husbandry and discovering new things. Enamored with the idea that they are the next-level generation of keepers. Modern and forward-thinking. Advancing the "Hobby." Can anyone tell me what we "know" now that keepers didn't know in the 80s or before? What are keepers doing today that keepers of the "past" did not understand?
Yes, the industrial rack breeding boom seems to have erased the past in some sense. Most of us who weren’t around in the 80s, don’t realize that there were plenty of people pushing standards back then (and before then) Because when we look back 20 years ago, into the early 2000s all you see is racks (it’s also possible that the people breeding with racks were most active on the internet/ forums, etc.)
The unlit tub culture disturbed me the moment I saw at first hit the scene. Having a day night cycle is really important to most animals even if they're not actively out using that light. I was actually quite surprised when I saw that trending right around the time that you listed that people were even considering that. I'm glad that people have started pushing back on it cuz it never really sat right with me. circadian rhythm is just too important to too many species in unexpected ways for me to ever be comfortable risking that kind of environment for anything other than deep cave species that simply do not come into the light ever.
Reading this, I have to make two points... 1. The 'advancing' cover-all name came about from the original, best and by far most influential group so-named, Advancing Herpetological Husbandry, which was set up a decade ago by a bunch of very knowledgeable European keepers that certainly are no members of the 'plug and play generation' - amongst our founders were the likes of Darrell Raw, who showed Bert Langerwerf around South Africa looking at agamas and sungazers; Dr Frances Baines, who along with Gary Ferguson has done the most to codify and educate on our understanding of reptiles and their interactions with light over the last 50 years; Roman Muryn, one of the founder members of the British Herpetological Society in the 1960s, and the single person that has changed our understanding of how different IR wavelenghs affect reptiles in recent years; Paul Tapley with his immense garden enclosures... Ricky Johnson who, whilst certainly young, is now a college lecturer on the subject.... and least of all myself, who surfed through the 80s on the backs of some of the greats of herp keeping. All these people witnessed the changes in the hobby, some of them fundamentally affected it at a deep and historic level throughout their careers, they rubbed shoulders with some of the all-time greats like Philippe deVosjoli, Chris Mattison, Ludwig Trutnau, Richard Gibson, Armin Geuss, Johann Krottlinger; Chris Davies, Tell Hicks, Daniel Bennett, Roger Avery, Jon Coote, Mark o'Shea.... contributing to the Litteratura Serpentium and the Ratsnake Foundation... and we watched the rise of the 'rack em, stack em generation' and a general downward spiral in welfare, and decided to DO something about it based on their own experience. Do NOT mistake those people for the slew of enthusiastic but young amateurs that have taken up the 'advancing' moniker, in some cases plagiarising information, and leapfrogging off the brand; or the many precocious and skilled young keepers that are now taking this information and running with it to positively influence the hobby like JTB Reptiles, Reptiles and Research and Dillon himself... all these were able to come about as a result of the original AHH steering a large subset of keepers BACK towards the correct course. Most of the original founder members AHH no longer engage with the hobby at large or do their own thing (Roman Muryn and Fran Baines are stalwarts that spend all their time educating) and it is for the newer generation of keepers to keep up the trend, which channels like this do fantastically well! The arrogance came from the then newer keepers in the early 2000s/2010s that were advocating the 'dark tubs' that had become mainstream, and the big name TH-camrs with their myriad of impressionable followers spreading this mindset that normalised this style of keeping. 2. I see a great many people view the past with rose-tinted glasses. Yes there were fantastic keepers like Joe Laszlo and Bert Langerwerf.... but to make out that they were anything LIKE the majority, that things like hot rocks were not the norm; that anoles and chameleons weren't virtually guaranteed a quick death; baby iguanas and terrapins given out as fairground prizes; that people weren't trying out things like blacklights and frying their reptiles; that species commonly captive bred today like Mandarin snakes, Hundred-Flower snakes and so on were not virtually guaranteed to snuff it... is wholly nonsensical. The hobby has come a LONG way. Sure, some of the more intuitive and knowledgable keepers back then like Bert and Joe knew through observation and intuition what was best for the animals; but these things were not demonstrated or codified by science until much, much more recently. Until then, it was just anecdote and intuition. Don't forget, it was not until Cabanac that people started realising reptiles were not the emotionless beings people thought they were; it was not until the mid-nineties that the first reptile-branded UV tubes were proiduced (Vitalite and Zoo-med); it was not until 1996 that the first literature on the effects of enrichment on snakes was published by Jersey zoo; it was not until 2008 that the first paper demonstrating positive effects of UVB on snakes appeared; it was not until 2015 that Roman Muryn hit on IR-a being the most important wavelength in heat and started broadcasting this to other keepers; it was not until the last few years that affordable UV-meters and power density meters have become available to the average pet keeper and widely used. In the last five years we have seen more academic literature regarding reptile emotion and welfare than the previous fifty. A lot of that is NEW knowledge, there is NO WAY anybody can make out that we knew then what we know now - or that common practices today like providing UV for snakes were commonplace in the 70s and 80s - it just is not true. There were keepers ahead of the curve for sure, that went with their direct observation and pioneered a HUGE amount of knowledge that younger keepers take for granted today... but there was an awful lot of misinformation and awful husbandry back then too, and we simply did not have the calibre of equipment that we do today... and that will keep improving as time goes on. That's just how the world works. One other thing I have noticed from interacting with keepers on both sides of the Atlantic - the European hobbyists were doing this longer, and better, than the Americans ever did. What is given as new information now or bandied about with trendy, fashionable names like 'bioactive' was commonplace a generation ago on this side of the pond. I see people in the comments arguing over enclosure sizes; over here the standard size is 4x2x2 for most things up to the size of a Corn snake, King snake or Royal python. In America I keep seeing 20 gallon and 40 gallon boxes suggested for everything. There is a huge disconnect in availability of wooden enclosures for example, and in the price of such enclosures. I can buy a 4x2x2 for £100 here, in the US it seems such enclosures are far more pricy. There is a big difference culturally in what is 'normal' in this hobby in Europe, and the 'rack em, stack em' style of using small dark tubs that we still call 'American style keeping.'
@@FranacondaAHH Reading all this, I have to make one point....... Repeating things you have read (thinly researched and biased.) Then reciting your "findings" as personal interpretations is hardly informative. It's misinformation, but I will ask, did you personally know Joe Laszlo and Bert Langerwerf. Speak to them, about what they accomplished. Their methods and how they approached things. I certainly did know them. Were you involved with the reptile scene in the U.S., in the 70s or before? I Was. If you weren't there you do not know. What is your background? To make so many bold statements you must have quite a lot of first-hand knowledge of the people you talk about. Along with a lengthy professional and amateur history working with reptiles and the animal business, I know I do. What have you done?
@@FranacondaAHH Although various investigators have explored the effects of light on a variety of physiological processes in reptiles (see Gehrmann, 1994A for a review) it was Joe Laszlo who called the attention of the herpetocultural community to the importance of temperature (Laszlo, 1979) and light quality (Laszlo, 1969) for health and reproduction in captive reptiles. He consulted representatives in the lighting industry and found a relatively new lamp by Duro-Test Corp. with the brand name of Vita-Lite® which was a close match to natural light. The reptiles he exposed to these lamps seemed to fare better than those illuminated with cool white tubes or incandescent lamps. His brief publication in Intemational Zoo Yearbook quickly led to the almost universal use of Vita-Lite® which held sway until about 1990. Joe was especially interested in ultraviolet (UV) light and for a number of years until his untimely death in 1987, we collaborated with a view toward designing a reptile lamp with a greater but safe level of ultraviolet B (UVB) or midwave UV than found in Vita-Lite® and other lamps (Gehrmann, 1987). During this time in the 1980's, two students of Duane Ullrey at Michigan State University, Mary Allen (1989) and Joni Bernard (1995), began studies exploring the importance of vitamin D and UVB to the health of reptiles, with particular reference to calcium metabolism and bone formation. These studies contributed to the development of the variety of reptile lamps available today.
"At what point are we letting our personal ethics and morality weigh in to what we are telling other people....?" YES...there it is. Dylan this was hands down the best reptile keeping show I've seen. The only thing I heard said I would disagree with is that OG keepers want nothing to do with young keepers. I was born in 1958 in to a house with reptiles. And I'm thrilled with the advances that have been made. It's amazing we managed to keep anything alive back in the day. If you're an OG keeper and you don't think you have anything to learn I feel bad for your animals. I could respond to this episode forever but I would mostly just be echoing what's already been said. There is one thing useful I feel I can add. Because I know a LOT about how the Internet works. Care guides....and doing "online research". The majority of what you see online is simply put up to make money. "Care guides" by and large are nothing but a parking place for affiliate links. These people may not even keep reptiles. They are copy/pasting the same "information" and peppering it with product mentions that make them money. That...and some of the ideas currently floating around have taken on a cult like flavor. Bioactive and "choice based handling" are two that come to mind. Anyway Dylan, to answer your question...YES...we absolutely need a soft entry point. Not everyone has the means to create a zoo in their house. That doesn't mean they can't become excellent keepers who love and bond with their reptiles. Thank you again for this episode!
Wonderful episode Dillon. I think that this is a very pertinent topic as I and many others are horrified at the mobbing and attacks being launched at keepers for reasonable and traditional methods which are, as you two stated in the episode, also valid and are not animal abuse. I think understanding this grey zone is exactly the discussion we need to be having with each other. That if we come together and respect each other rather than look to tear each other apart this hobby could be become a much better place for us and our animals.
@@copperhead.reptilia You made a very good point and stated it very clearly. Thanks for bringing the discussion to the surface! This is a place I come to for healing and reflection and the aggression I have seen in the last year has made me feel less and less comfortable in the community. Thank you so
The area where you guys talk about the babies and people throwing them into excessively large enclosures and then losing the animal and failing to see a serious health concern and then losing that animal to death is something that I have also thought a lot about. When somebody tells me that they think keeping the baby in a small enclosure is a concern, I offer up a middle ground of keeping the baby in a small enclosure for monitoring and so that it feels secure but also offering to allow it to come out into a large playpen enclosure for enrichment a couple of times a week or as the animal learns to communicate better as frequently as it would like. Then as the animal grows the enclosure can be made more elaborate and extended and we get the best of both worlds so that we do not lose the animal, we do not miss an important health event in the animal, and the animal has adequate exercise and enrichment opportunities well even while the enclosure is not yet maximized for enrichment in and of itself. I have found most babies have interest coming out for a playpen about twice a week in the beginning when they have the simplest and smallest living space.
I have a hard time with this implication that those advocating for larger or more enriched enclosures are being unreasonable, which I've been hearing more often lately. And I'm honestly tired of the tendency to label "the advancing husbandry groups" as elitists. Come on. It's not that simple and it's not so black-and-white. It conveniently ignores so much behavioral and husbandry-related nuance. Yes, a young snake may be overwhelmed in a large enclosure. Yes, a snake that has lived its life in a rack may be overwhelmed in a large enclosure. But that doesn't mean that a smaller, minimalistic enclosure is the best long-term solution. Not every snake requires an 8x4x4 but it seems to me that the push in this video was to imply that young or fearful or shy snakes are therefore fine in small enclosures. "Sometimes the minimum is enough" is a nice rationalization but unless we're talking about life-or-death rescue situations, it's dangerous territory in a hobby filled with industrial style breeders and buyers looking for the easiest/cheapest husbandry approach. Where is the recognition that helping an animal adjust to a higher quality enclosure is a stepwise process, not a matter of 'dump the animal in a big enclosure and if it doesn't adjust then oh well it obviously needs a minimalistic setup. Oh look, it's eating now. That must mean that racks are fine.' Give me a break. We shouldn't stop advocating for high quality of care just because the reptile breeding industry is out of control. I see how many Ball pythons end up surrendered to rescues or literally get thrown in the trash. The reason that happens is not because some of us advocate for high quality husbandry. I agree that a bare 4x2x2 and an animal provided with no enrichment is a worse setup than an environmentally complex 40 gallon and an animal offered regular enrichment. I am not trying to come off like some goddess of husbandry. I try to provide the best but my enclosures aren't zoo quality. However, there's a thin line between acknowledging that pet keepers need accessible setups versus slipping into "the minimum is enough" as a standard. This video came perilously close to saying that hey, racks/minimalistic enclosures are OK and it's cool to let kids provide mediocre setups because we don't want to be mean to the kids or scare newcomers away. The old "they eat better in racks" argument was even dug up again, with no pushback. Yes, I'm frustrated.
Respectfully, the point I was trying to make is that yes, by all means, every keeper should progress their care, and advance their husbandry over time. Stagnation is what leads to poor husbandry, in my opinion. But the point I wanted to make is that there is a HUGE grey area between a massive enclosure, and a barren tub, and the vast majority of keepers fall into that middle range, but oftentimes, they provide perfectly fine husbandry for their animals, but are afraid to share their setups and animals because certain voices and influencers in the hobby drown those keepers out. I absolutely advocate for giving the highest level of care possible, and unless for quarantine purposes, I never keep in sterile setups. Another point is that, yes, a 40g for a ball python is not the ideal, but is it better than a rack tub? Absolutely. I will 100% say I'd rather see an adult ball python in a 40g with plenty of enrichment, than in a barren tub at a breeding facility. Obviously more space is always ideal, so long as all parameters are met within that space as well, but we as a community need to also embrace the keepers that provide more than a barren setup, but maybe aren't able to recreate Ghana for their Ball Python. There are 44,000 Ball Pythons on MorphMarket alone, and an unfortunate reality is that it's simply impossible to give all of them massive enclosures, but that we also need to accept that there are plenty of ways to humanely and ethically keep an animal without setting a $1000+ barrier to entry, or without devoting an entire room to an enclosure. Everyone can keep in whatever way suits them, but so long as you always try to improve, that's the most important thing, and so long as someone always tries to move past a bare minimum, we as a community should accept and support them, and nurture further growth. Again, full respect intended, and I feel I may not have worded things as well verbally in the podcast. Cheers!
Thanks for watching the episode and sharing your thoughts. I can certainly understand your frustration. Personally I don’t think this episode or guest was promoting minimalistic keeping. At the heart of this conversation (from my perspective) is acknowledging that there are keepers out there who want to better by their animals but don’t have the means to do so. These keepers are often intimidated to seek guidance for fear of reprisal and when they do, are accused of being cruel to their animals due to inadequate care. If these keepers are afraid to ask questions and embarrassed to share their current “starting point”, then “we” (the advancing community) have failed. Whether we agree with the “elitist” label or not, that is how we are often seen. It’s worth reflecting on why that might be. Should these keepers have thought about the responsibility of caring for their reptile before acquiring it? YES. But how many of us actually did? Many keepers (including me) purchased their reptiles before fully grasping the significance of the responsibility. Should we chastise those keepers until they disappear (and so to their animals). Or should we come to terms with the fact that many of us aren’t able to keep idealistically and therefore should strive to help come up with husbandry methods that can act to offset other husbandry short comings (using a jungle gym for exercise, rather than upgrading to a massive enclosure for example). I think it’s important to help people improve their care by treating them respectfully and help come up with solutions for them.
I really appreciate your comment. I 100% agree with everything you say here. You may be right that perhaps these admittedly nuanced points weren't super clear in the podcast. I also acknowledge that I may be reacting from my experiences as an admin in a few large FB groups, including AHH as well as a group dedicated entirely to new Royal python keepers. It is absolutely true that most pet keepers can't start out with a 4x2x2 and full spectrum lighting, etc. We have to find a way to help them along a middle path that allows them to keep their new pet as well as possible while also helping them progress over time to a more ideal setup. I think a lot of the issue may be that the industrial style breeders are seen as husbandry 'experts' so a lot of these beginners start out with frankly awful husbandry advice. And so the struggle begins. I agree that if a snake in a less than perfect setup is provided with environmental complexity as well as exploration, learning, and enrichment opportunities outside of the enclosure, that is better than a 4x2x2 box with minimal enrichment - but doing that requires a keeper willing to really learn what enrichment is and take the time to provide it. Thanks again for your thoughtful and courteous response - I definitely agree with your points.
The minimum seems to creep ever up. When I was a kid getting into it. people reccomended a 10 gallon for leopard geckos. Nowadays commonly I see 20 longs or 40s. But there's people pushing for 4x2x1 too. I advocated for larger cages a lot back in the 90s/early 00's, but there's a lot of people advocating minimums--not ideal, but minimums--that are absolutely well over minimums. A 3-4' corn snake absolutely does not need a 4x2x2 to do well--it's great to give them that, particularly more height--but they can do well and get exercise in a 3x2x2. A really small adult may be fine in a 40 breeder.
It does seem, that some of the Advancement people,while they do have genuinely good intentions, they are quite zealot like. They do border line sound anti keeping as nothing seems to be good enough for them. I think they should show people the end goal, and give newbies the skills to achieve that, but allow them to get there in a steady time, once they have built the skill set to be able to do this. You don't pass your driving test and automatically become an F1 driver. You need to get the basics down before you can broaden your skill set. In regards to care guides, I much prefer using books on the natural history of the Animal I'm getting, and use that to base my husbandry around. Also the climate data websites are a godsend.
I would say look to their natural history and try your best to use elements of their natural habitat as enrichment. For example, I would think deep substrate and heavy amounts of leaf litter would be excellent enrichment.
Hi James! I actually keep a 4 year old adult female brongersmai- she currently has a 6x3x2 enclosure- for species that are largely sedentary like the short tails, I usually recommend deep substrate, ample decor for them to hide around, large amounts of leaf litter, some sort of burrow type structures, as well as a large water feature, because they do love humidity and will soak after large meals. Food cycling and prey type rotation is also a great way to spice up their care :)
I keep and breed tarantulas that point you made on sling enclosure size was bang on. Iv just had a egg sack of 135 Psalmopoeus irminia. I'd never have room if I didn't use 25ml vials for slings 😂
I've gotten chased out of discords & reptile subreddits for suggesting that a leopard gecko doesn't NEED a 4x2 to survive. The reptile community has seen a lot of traumatic care mistakes hurt a lot of animals, so they are going to overcompensate their recommendations. Totally understandable. I just don't like it when people get all weird and condescending about it.
I am new to this channel: T.H.AN.K. Y.O.U two guys- ESPECIALLY CHRIS….. for being a VOICE OF REASON in an a community which is being verbally THRASHED by a minority few folks… 😬🤔 •••Perhaps I am an “old school” Herper, but I come from the era of: *if you wanted to own it, you had to FIND IT… END of story. (Or, find it at a mom & pop pet shop, as there were NO big box pet stores, & NO name brand reptile products….) This is TRUTH. THEN, later, along came HOT ROCKS….. & now to today’s reptile environment…. (some folks are GETTING OUT OF CONTROL…. (An entire ROOM for a single LEOPARD GECKO is just stupid.) Regardless, I eat, sleep, & LIVE REPTILES… I have every moment of my entire life, & that will never change. COMMON Snapping Turtles are my infatuation, & always will be…. (alligator snappers now that they are available captive bred, too- but also Bearded Dragons, tortoises, & corn snakes & others, of course!!) I LOVE THIS CHANNEL & LOVE the PODCASTS!!!🥰😊💚🐢🐍
I feel like I've seen a lot of anthropomorphizing animals as well. I've kept animals most of my life, my wife had never kept any reptiles or anything before we got together. For a long time she would compare reptiles to humans; would you want X? And that made me realize more and more when others did the same thing. We need to realize these do not have human brains and needs, AND they have individual personalities to boot.
Interesting being told how to care for animals from someone who works with animal testing from the sounds of it. Only thing I agreed with in this episode was the subject that a snake is a snake is a snake. The rest to my ear sounded like someone who is more bothered about how many animals and species they’ve kept instead of how they are keeping them. Hypocrisy and contradictions and condesention to justify their way of keeping large numbers. I don’t think I once heard him say that his methods are fallible. Nothing more dangerous than someone who thinks they know everything. Normally love your conversations but this one was a bit of a let down imo.
Yeah.. I love the podcast but this one ain't it. I do not like this guy. Don't know who he is. I don't really like his message or how he delivers it. That's all I'm gonna say. I do appreciate keeping the podcast a mixed bag though.
To answer you- I'm a keeper of 16+ years, with well over 70 species under my belt personally and professionally in that time, and a career of almost 9 years in animal husbandry, as well as humane care and handling procedures. I'd like to hear what you take issue with- I'm the first to admit I don't always word things the way I hear them in my head, and I wish I could reword multiple things to make my point clearer, but let me make something clear, as I have lower in the comments- I'm not advocating for minimal care or husbandry. But in my 16+ years in this community, we've never been more black and white than we are now. A minimal rack with no enrichment is obviously not ideal, but the point I was trying to make in this episode is that as a community, we consistently overlook the vast majority of keepers who are neither rack keepers, nor keepers who keep in massive, elaborate setups, which many sources now try to treat as the bare minimum for proper captive husbandry, which is simply not true, as multiple factors apart from space go into proper husbandry. Increasing your personal standards of care is something as keepers we should always strive for, and if you stagnate, you do yourself and your animals a disservice. But at what point does the hobby stop beating up on pet keepers who do far better than a rack, but keep in less than a massive, zoo grade enclosure? At some point we have to admit that a 40g is definitely not the end-all of care, but is it better than an empty tub? Absolutely, and as a community we often overlook perfectly humane care of animals in lieu of choosing rack vs. advanced setups. My point being, there is so much grey area that remains unaddressed in our community, and we truly need to stop beating up and judging the keepers who fall in that area (who are the majority, from firsthand experience) and still have animals that are healthy, cherished, and well kept. This is all food for thought, and meant respectfully, I might add- sometimes my typing comes off blunt.
Consider that a good thing! We don’t want to end up in an echo chamber. However, I suspect the reason you disagree with this is the same reason other folks below disagree with it. You can find my response to them below 😀
I would love to know your thoughts on the following question: 1:42:15
The answer for anyone starting out is don't ask questions online or pay attention to popular TH-cam heroes. You will be overwhelmed with misinformation. It's the land of the blind leading the even more blind.
I think that the gray area is the future. As nice as it would be to believe that science has reached the point where we understand everything, the truth of the matter is we are just starting to scratch the surface on understanding each individual species and the individual animals within the species. It is extremely dangerous to get in the mindset that we actually know what we're doing now because the people who develop that mindset on the techniques that are popular right now are the people who hang on to them for decades in the future even when new information comes out and shows otherwise. I spent about 25 years lurking because I wasn't in a position where I could keep my own animals, since actually finally being in a position where I felt comfortable to keep my own animals and applying scientific techniques to improving their care, I have introduced a lot of new concepts that have turned out to hold true across many other people trying those experiments out. I am not saying that I am something special here, I'm saying that there's a ton of room for furthering our understanding of these animals and we're just going to keep uncovering more the deeper we look. If we were truly at the point where we understood everything, I would not have uncovered multiple pieces of information that were previously missing in my first year of keeping. I've been keeping for several years now and I continue to uncover new behaviors, new information about health, new information about enclosures. And when I say new information, I really do mean new as in I have not seen this information anywhere. I'm just working with one species, multiply that by the hundreds if not thousands currently in captivity. The key is humility for all of us. We have so much to learn. I look everyday to see if my findings will be overturned and I'm ready to change my practices based on new information at all times. I sincerely hope that someday the standard will be understanding the process of becoming a good caretaker instead of following a specific script.
I adore your podcast by the way. I need to catch up and a few episodes behind, but you have consistently been bringing people on who talk about the hard questions and bring up our need for further information which is the most important thing that the reptile community needs as a culture right now so thank you for that.
Thank you again for having me on, Dillon, I had a great time!
Thanks for joining me!
This is an excellent episode. Great talk. One thing that I’d like to point out is that, yes, many snakes are found under logs, tin, leaves etc, but just because they’re resting there, doesn’t mean that’s where they remain for the duration of their lives, nor does it mean they were born there. They had to come from somewhere. The argument I constantly hear in regards to keeping ball pythons in shoebox racks is that “they live in termite mounds”, ok let’s say that’s 100% true, 1. then how did the species spread throughout Western Africa if they only lived in the mounds? 2. How large is an African termite mound? Answer is that some of them are easily as large as a house with a multitude of tunnels and chambers within, certainly a far cray from a 10 gal tub. And 3. There’s a lot of information and videos out there showing wild BPs in trees, under vegetation, etc. So that argument kinda falls flat. Many species of snakes are nocturnal, so when people say they “never leave their hide” I have to wonder if they’re taking the time to observe them at night, when the animals are normally awake and active.
You guys are 100% correct that each animal is it’s one individual that has its own unique personality and behaviors that will differ from others of their species, understanding that nuance is important when considering how they are kept.
I agree with you on all of this, thank you for listening, you brought up some great points as well!
Very good points
I was reading the bio-activity anf the theory if wild re-creation, when I stumbled upon this.
I thought it was fitting with the contents of this episode.
"This will be an issue that causes arguments for a long time to come, yet old habits and thought processes die hard as it were. There is a definite "we have done it this way for decades and everything is fine" and "we must provide the best for our species and mimic the wild in doing so" split in the hobby which can actually become quite militant in some sectors."
I'm sitting here in camp neither of those and yeah it's it's interesting and probably going to go on for a long time. I'm in camp figure out the animal's behavior and then give them options and then use that information to tailor the enclosure however the animal ends up deciding. My enclosures are extremely unique.
Great topic and great points here! I used to often feel a lot of owners guilt for not having these luxury looking decked-out bioactive setups, at the end of the day though I know i'm meeting the needs of all my animals to the best of my ability and always looking for new forms of improvement and at the end of the day that's what matters most!
Over the past years i've stuck to my naturalistic keeping, improving in simple ways and it's done me and my animals wonders- I worked up to more frequent spot cleanings and rearrangements with enrichment opportunities, increased diet variety, increased enclosure clutter (more stones, hides, branches, vines, etc.), starting utilizing more LED lighting, etc.! More planned to come but it's been a great start and really hasn't hit my bank account at all lol
Good, progressive husbandry advice should be starting at the "Point of sale". I'm hearing of increasing numbers of breeders and pet stores who do background checks before selling livestock. This is encouraging, but more needs to be happening with respect to sharing good information in a more palatable way (so as not to deter, humiliate, or intimidate)
The more we learn about the behavioural repertoires and biological needs of our favorite pets, the more we should be encouraging a captive regime that supports them to thrive. 'Not suffering' and 'surviving' are just not good enough a goal. Especially not when the anti-exotic pet campaigners are on our necks.
As an "old school" keeper, I often (upon reflection) subjected my herp pets to substandard conditions (light, heat, space, humidity, diet, etc) in pursuit of "getting it right". I/we(?) were often looking for answers in the wrong places. When I acknowledged and addressed my own arrogance and cognitive dissonance and started focusing on learning from in situ research and science, it became easier for me to admit when I had gotten things wrong and become open to ideas from unlikely places. Just because I kept herps for 38 years, doesnt mean i was doing it right (or advancing positively in important aspects). I am by NO means an expert, but I'm sure I have ideas worth sharing, like everyone else.
Yes this is true❤
So many great points were made here. I so appreciate your thoughts on the growth of the community for new reptile keepers. As a new reptile owner, it’s very refreshing to hear you speak about how I can expand my collection in a practical, cost effective manner. Thank you so much!
With the point about keeping baby snakes in large enclosures, there is a lot of nuance to the answer. I recently got a baby Eastern kingsnake and for the first week I kept him in a quarantine tub with the floor space of about a 10 gallon glass terrarium. Within the first day he spent hours running up and down the length of the tub, pacing all over, and rubbing his face against the plastic.
I decided to put this 12 inch baby kingsnake into a 40 gallon enclosure, since it actually had the tightest and most secure lid of any of the glass enclosures I had, and when I’m home I have no trouble finding him because he’s always out. I also immediately fixed the enclosure with UVB and a halogen. Every day he’s usually charging around the enclosure, if I need to make sure he hasn’t escaped I open the change and start clanging his feeding tongs and he comes out immediately. He also basks under both lamps and eats like a dog.
My other two snakes are boas, so I wasn’t prepared for such an energetic and rambunctious snake when I got my kingsnake, but even my boas utilize space when I give it to them.
One of the boas I have is a Kenyan sand boa, and he is currently a subadult and only 16” yet lives in a 4x2x2. In the afternoon he’s always out crawling around, and even during the day I usually see him poking his head out of the substrate in different parts of the enclosure. When he was 6” long I kept him in a 20 gallon long and basically had no issue either.
I think it’s a lot about the individual snake you have, but even then I think there certainly is a way to keep baby snakes in large enclosures correctly, even if it’s somewhat more difficult. Those baby snakes will bask and crawl around and exhibit natural behavior and benefit as much as any older snake.
One thing I do to make it easier to find them in large enclosures is give them less substrate. If I have my kingsnake or sand boa 4” of soil or aspen bedding as babies I’d never be able to find them in hiding. But instead I give them like 1” or less of substrate, enough to burrow but not so that I have to shovel through tons of substrate to find them. When I start poking through the enclosure either they immediately pop their heads out or twitch under the substrate and just like that I’ve located them.
I got a rehomed ball python the lady had her in a 10 gallon for 6 yrs and I honestly think she didn’t know anything , 1 of those situations where she just inherited her . But man she probably is the most active ball python I have , climbing up everything . Good episode though and look forward to what you got next
food tastes better when you've starved... Easy to appreciate space after being kept in a broom closet 🐍
I would love to see more education groups or centers that show real, proper care of animals that CHILDREN are encouraged to purchase.
Love that idea!
Glad it wasn't just me. And he put it more eloquently lol
I’m curious what time of day/night you’re observing your Morelia bredli? I work with 40 in my behavior lab and they are highly active and utilize a lot of space if given the opportunity during the evenings and at night. Most of mine glass surf and move around their enclosures for several hours all night until morning and all but a handful will readily come out and roam the work area for hours if allowed. During the day they do rest in one spot but that is merely a snapshot of their time budget.
Hi Lori,
Bataar, my Bredli, is an incredibly calm animal and has always been a bit of a perch potato. He does exhibit the general calm, tractable nature the species is known for, but he is absolutely my least active Morelia. I can honestly say any of my Coastals, Darwins, or Papuans display more roaming and interaction with their environment than he does, regardless of time of day. I've been lucky enough to be able to regularly check my collection around the clock and observe many of them throughout the night, and obviously throughout the day. He's always had a bit of a penchant for staying in his hide all day, then he drapes along two perches at night when he's nearing feeding. To say he's entirely inactive is not true, but out of my group of Morelia, he is by far my laziest boy. You do have a much larger pool of bredli to observe than my lone boy, but he's honestly been such a lazy snake for years!
Fantastic episode! In some ways I felt like you were speaking to me. I've been planning to be more active in the community for a while, but a big thing holding me back is exactly what you discussed here. Most of my animals are not yet in what I envision will be their final enclosures, and even though they are still well cared for, I fear being told I'm not doing good enough. Transitioning from old keeping methods to new as a breeder takes so much more money and time than people realize. I want to keep doing better when I have more money and stability as we all continue to evolve in herpetoculture. I feel seen, thank you.
That was the exact goal. People like you and I are the majority, but are often drowned out. Keep on keeping on!
Glad you enjoyed this one, Aurora! Thank you so much for watching 😀
As a ‘new age’ keeper, I have to say that I find the idolization of ‘old school’ keepers a tad troublesome since, while some have undoubtedly done wonders for the hobby, many-many more are keeping their animals in poor conditions (tiny enclosures, heat rocks, tape in enclosures, no substrate etc.) and refusing to change because “I’vE BeEn KEePinG sInCe tHe 80s”.
Moving on, I’m going to be honest here by saying: if high husbandry standards are being interpreted as a form of gatekeeping that is scaring people away - then so be it. I’m totally fine with that. In fact, I’d encourage it, though I take issue with the insinuation that in doing so I and others advocating for increased husbandry standards are snobs or elitist. There are already hundreds upon thousands of people who are keeping their animals in subpar conditions because “I want it, therefore I should own it.” And in my personal opinion, accepting and encouraging bare minimum standards in order to appeal to a wider audience is just not OK. I think that the best way to encourage interest, while also doing justice to the animals themselves, is to put emphasis on smaller species that are cheaper to house and thus more realistically kept in captivity.
From 41:00 onward, I was pretty horrified by that entire discussion. You can’t take a dog that’s been kept in a small dark room all its life and immediately throw it outside and expect it to thrive. Snakes are no different in that regard and continuing to keep a snake in a shitty enclosure because that’s what it’s used to, is so incredibly wrong. It would have been fine if you’d gone on to mention that those animals would need to be slowly introduced to larger and more enriched surroundings, but at 57:40 now I’ve yet to hear it and, honestly, I’m more than a bit bothered by this point so for now I won’t be finishing the video.
I will say that I can see the points that you are trying to make. But the way that some of them have been communicated is decidedly… off, from my perspective.
I will copy and paste my response from a similar criticism below. You can see Chris's response in the thread as well, if interested (the original comment was posted by Cait, purple-ish display picture). I personally believe this episode's topic has a tendency to spark a knee-jerk reaction from the "advancing side". I have about 350 hrs worth of content dedicated to pushing reptile husbandry forward, so I think my thoughts on this topic should be clear. See my response below:
_Thanks for watching the episode and sharing your thoughts. I can certainly understand your frustration. Personally I don’t think this episode or guest was promoting minimalistic keeping. At the heart of this conversation (from my perspective) is acknowledging that there are keepers out there who want to better by their animals but don’t have the means to do so. These keepers are often intimidated to seek guidance for fear of reprisal and when they do, are accused of being cruel to their animals due to inadequate care. If these keepers are afraid to ask questions and embarrassed to share their current “starting point”, then “we” (the advancing community) have failed. Whether we agree with the “elitist” label or not, that is how we are often seen. It’s worth reflecting on why that might be.
Should these keepers have thought about the responsibility of caring for their reptile before acquiring it? YES. But how many of us actually did? Many keepers (including me) purchased their reptiles before fully grasping the significance of the responsibility. Should we chastise those keepers until they disappear (and so to their animals). Or should we come to terms with the fact that many of us aren’t able to keep idealistically and therefore should strive to help come up with husbandry methods that can act to offset other husbandry short comings (using a jungle gym for exercise, rather than upgrading to a massive enclosure for example).
I think it’s important to help people improve their care by treating them respectfully and help come up with solutions for them._
Well stated on both sides, & all the input is GREATLY appreciated!!
I started as ‘an old school’ keeper (as I was from the era where if you wanted a reptile, you had to FIND IT!! … &, there were zero pet reptile products.)
ok, I was born in 1975 & I was born with Snapping Turtles (my dad kept some rescues since before I was born) & I have lived every second of my life obsessed with Common Snapping turtles!! (Still applies today.)
I am very excited about how much interest there is today in the Reptile hobby, & I hope folks will continue to support each other in the most positive ways possible!!!😊
Such an interesting episode, I absolutely loved it, so many things I want to respond to but I know it would just make a huge paragraph and we don't want that haha. I will say though, taking into account the individual animal instead of the general guide for the species is so important, and it's great that we're reminded of that in this podcast. Care guides are just guide lines, they're a starting point, it's then up to us to see what each animal actually wants. I have five snakes, each one has their personalities and I've adapted their environment and my behaviour towards them accordingly, by testing things out and seeing how they respond. Thanks a bunch for these podcasts, they're always awesome.
Thank you so much for watching, glad you enjoyed the episode!
As with all the pets I've had over my lifetime,the grey area is best and go from there only last year,three years after my last house bunny did I finally venture into ,to me,the TERRIFYING arena of reptile keeping after over one year of research. I was so convinced whatever I got was going to up and die. But when I got the gargoyle gecko,I realized the set up worked like an aquarium...In his case,it's vertical,but the concept is the same. It was a walk in the park after that. After six months of keeping him,I got a larger enclosure and went bioactive cause I love plants.
The plant lights are on a timer but I hand mist cause I like the extra interaction with the habitat.
Now to domestication.I read of the Russian silver fox project and I would agree with you that both humans domesticating certain species and the 4 species you mentioned are at the top of the list. Look at the carrot tail leo,note the white on the tail,white on the feet,face and sometimes the white stripe up the forehead...That's also what happened with the silver foxes as the breeders kept selecting for tameness. I'd reall enjoy you doing a series on domestication involving these 4 species of reptiles. I would find it very fascinating..
Great discussion! Much needed in these times.
Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for watching!
Thank you!
Really enjoyed this episode.
I will 100% agree, that there is a grey area when it comes to enclosure sizes.
But to some extend, I find myself generally on the bigger is better side of the arguement.
While I agree, that this very much depends on the species and the individual animal, as someone who mainly keeps fish, having an enclosure that is shorter than the animal living in it is kinda strange to me. And to some degree, especially starting off young snakes in really dark enclosed spaces may actually be very much the environment hatchlings will seek out and instinctively feel the most secure in.
But at what point will that animal have the tendency to start exploring the wider world, be it due to hunger or just generally due to an urge for more space. Because there is very much the problem that the longer an animal has been in a specific environment, the more stress alterations will cause when they occur.
Thats where I think Lori Torrini is pretty much on point, that a important part of that transition is keeping the animal in a familiar environment, but gradually giving it access to a more enriching environment, which you also touched on in this conversation. Especially with ball pythons, if they have been kept in a tub thats basically dark 24/7 except for cleaning and feeding, just a day night cycle is something completely unfamiliar to the animal.
If the animal ends up never leaving the tub, fine, but I dont think thats an arguement for potentially depriving the animal of the ability to move.
And I also think, thats where especially reptile breeders are lacking, because I have a feeling many would not necessarily know how to transition their animal from a tub to a bigger enclosure with reliable success.
Same with prices for the enclosures.
A viv for a baby can be cheap, but I feel like many breeders are dependent on selling animals and thats kinda it.
If a breeder has resources on hand that enable them to say, hey, this animal needs a fairly big enclosure in 2 or 3 years and here is how you can maybe build a good one yourself on the cheap if need be, that would probably go a long way. And as much as I am against pricing people out of an awesome hobby, being able to give ballpark figures what the upkeep is gonna cost long term may actually help people who work on the rescue side of the hobby as well as the animals.
So yeah, those are my general thoughts on that whole topic and im glad i can go back to binging new episodes of this podcast :)
Thanks for watching the episode and adding to the discussion!
I really appreciate this discussion. I am in AHH, and I have really disengaged with and considered leaving it because of alot of what was discussed here. Thank you both for addressing this topic in such a level-headed way. Chris especially expressed alot of the concerns I've been having with the advanced husbandry movement.
I think as we get better at training these animals and setting up basic communication with them in the same way that we have basic communication with dogs and cats through mutual understanding and consistent signaling, we will actually be able to identify better when an animal has adequate space based on their interest in coming out and interacting with additional stimulation sources. I have after quite a while finally reached the point where my Western hognose does not ask to come out anymore because she actually has enough stimulation in her enclosure that it is rarely if ever an interest to her. That said she can still come out whenever she likes and I will offer to take her out regularly and sometimes I will insist that she comes out so that I can do deeper level cleaning, but she is no longer desperate to come out when I come home on some days which is I think something that speaks volumes. In all honestly the size that worked for this what smaller than I was expecting but did include a heck of a lot of exercise options which I think may be very key. As she continues to grow I will likely need to continue to increase the size and range of experiences for her. It is possible that she will become bored with what I have provided with her after a few months or a few years. Time will tell. The better we get at reading our animals and giving them an opportunity to actually indicate what they would like, the better we can get at ensuring they have proper housing and lifestyle.
Excellent point! I think you’re right, as we get better at reading body language, etc. understanding that requirements will become more clear
To answer your question Dillon...
Of COURSE there is a grey area where people get to grow and expand their skillset. Nobody starts out as an expert able to keep the most advanced species or use the most 'advanced' or difficult techniques. It is like everything in life - there has to be a gradation as time goes by. And nobody should expect a beginner to know it all or have all the answers or be the perfect keeper.
HOWEVER that answer comes with a couple of provisos.
First, there does need to be a qualifier to that; how MUCH do we accept a true beginner can ignore at the beginning? What can be pruned or left untiul later and what is needed from the get-go? If you look at, for example, the aquarium hobby, there is an awful lot for the prospective beginner to learn and most shops (at least over here) won't just sell fish to people without proof of a properly maintained aquarium with decent water parameters. An aquarium owner has to learn not just how to set a heater to the right temperature; they need to learn about pH, nitrate and nitrite levels, ammonia levels. The kicker is that most shops offer free water tests and guidance on how to achieve this. I would argue the prospective aquarium keeper has far more to learn and worry about and juggle than the beginner snake or lizard keeper.
So with reptiles, as an example. We acknowledge UV is at least beneficial to most, outright necessary to some. Is there an excuse to not use it as a beginner when it is now so easy to access? A beginner Bearded dragon keeper would be expected to use UV as it is 'necessary' - why not a beginner snake keeper where it is only 'beneficial'? What's the excuse there? Is the difficulty in installing a bulb at a certain distance different? At what point is this step reached?
Second, there has to be the recognition that there IS a ladder to climb; that one does not just step onto the bottom rung and stay there. Half the arguments and problems I see online are from beginners and amateurs that have been told to do things the 'safe' way and clung to this and refuse to take that step up to the next level. It is one thing to decide not to advance, but too many also like to argue with those who WANT to improve. We have seen it all - 'snakes cannot be kept in large spaces, nocturnal reptiles won't use UV and don't need light, loose substrate causes impaction, reptiles cannot be cohabited - etc etc'
Whilst there has to be a pass for newer keepers, there also has to be the insight that if you are starting as a beginner, there IS more to learn and your level of keeping does not just remain 'entry level.'
Thirdly - and perhaps most interestingly - I notice a big trend of the newer, younger keepers taking their hobby 'public' and seeking to become 'influencers' or teaching others when they are still beginners themselves. I have watched complete beginners join my group in 2019, ask 'noob' questions and then start their own groups in 2020 after havbing their hand held through this entry period, acting as self-appointed experts and gurus. It is quite a thing to watch. For some reason the gap between people trying to learn as much as they can, and then taking that information and spewing what they have learned so far as gospel to 'educate' others seems to be getting smaller and smaller and smaller - and THAT arrogance causes a lot of problems, misconceptions and folklore! Because how does a complete beginner spot another complete beginner and tell the information apart from that offered by a more experienced keeper? It is all very daunting, even before the difference in mindsets and styles of keeping comes into play!
Finally - for me personally I think choice of animal you keep is the most important decision you have to make, and too frequently it is the wrong choice. In my opinion, Bearded dragons and Royal pythons are NOT great beginner species; people overlook the smaller, hardier and easier to keep animals and then provide the least to their Beardie (hot take - a 4x2x2 is not big enough for one). Far better to start with a smaller species. Sadly... many of those species are just not available, especially in the US. Want a Beardie's personality, hardiness and tolerance for handling, but not its size? Get an Orange-spotted Agama (Stellagama stellio picea). Want a cool, colourful and super hardy small snake? Get a Dione's or Twin-Spotted rat snake, or a Sand boa, or a House snake, or any one of a hundred other easy to keep species that is not a Royal python. In a way, the hobby has funnelled beginners into choosing one of maybe six to ten species as a first pet when there may be species harder to find but more suited to being kept....
Just a few thoughts.
I completely agree with everything you’ve said here, Francis. In fact, I recommended the same thing in a private conversation regarding beginner species… Making the point that maybe snakes that reach lengths of 5 feet and lizards that can reach length of 2 feet shouldn’t be considered starter pets. Smaller species, and ones that don’t live quite as long would make better candidates.
From my perspective, this episode is actually more directed to people who are already keeping rather than those who are looking to start their reptile keeping journey. In an ideal world, we can get beginners started on the right foot with proper information. However, realistically, many keepers, start with their animal first, and if we’re lucky, they begin investigating better her husbandry methods down the road (think people purchasing from big box stores, for example).
So in my mind, this episode is really directed towards individuals who want to do better, will eventually do better, but maybe are not currently in the position to do so. Hopefully this conversation makes them realize they are not “evil or cruel“ for not having an ideal set up, but instead motivate them to investigate ways to supplement their current care to offset their shortcomings. Like the jungle gyms that Lori uses, for example
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast I understand your point and I do agree to an extent... but from experience 'people-watching' online for a few decades now, I think there is a VERY fine line between 'acknowledging more is required and wanting to do better' and 'becoming complacent, sitting in that rut and making excuses.' So sure, of course individuals that want to do better and eventually will do better are not 'evil or cruel' but there definitely should be emphasis on motivating them rather than accepting it. In my opinion. Otherwise, nothing moves forward. And sure, a lot of people naturally get very defensive about that - but if you remove all emotion it does not change that fact.
I would also say, it is common to see people 'acknowledging more is required and wanting to do better' still going out and buying new pets before making the improvements for their old ones. I guess I see more of the latter than the former, now I think about it. So I think we should be understanding but that should not put a stop toward reaching toward improvement in the community. To my mind, if the keeper can afford new animals, they should focus on improvement for the old ones first. Others may disagree.
Yes, I completely agree. I was having a very similar discussion with another AHH admin. I think those of you have had to deal with the absolutely insane things that happen on Facebook have different perspective than me who essentially only deals with a podcast audience. I’ll copy and paste a message. I sent to the other admin below that I think is really important/relevant:
Something to remember with the podcast is- The folks who listen to it are virtually ALL on "our" side. Whether their actual care is where they want it to be, their hearts and minds are in the right place. They are all dedicated to progressing towards a "gold standard". You won't find anyone listening to the show looking for short cuts or using it as an excuse to be complacent. The listeners quite often update me immediately with photos when they’ve made upgrades.
In hindsight, I completely understand the reaction from people like yourself who are having to deal with ridiculous things on FB (one of the reasons I am so absent there). You TOTALLY have reason to have an initial reaction of "WTF! the idiots will use this message to continue to be idiots" lol
The podcast is somewhat "shielded" from this. People who strive to do the bare minimum have ZERO interest in spending 1-2 hours listening to a weekly podcast. Hopefully it is comforting to know, that the messages presented on the show almost always fall on the right ears. I think this is the main reason I don't EVER get Rack People attacking me in the TH-cam comments, they don't show up for the discussions. Ever.
As the producer of the show, this is something I'm privy to that is probably less obvious to the listeners.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast that is completely fair, and understandable. I cannot deny I thought 'luck b*t*rd' as I read that haha.
I am glad you recognise the difference as well between producing the podcast today, and the amount of acrimony some of us had to go through just to get our points across back when the hobby did not want to hear it. In some cases it took a huge amount of determination and sheer bloody-minded stubborness to get information across arguments that sometimes lasted days and weeks. It is fair to say entire waves of people took up the cause and got mentally burnt out by the constant arguments.
It genuinely does makes me happy these days to see so many newer, younger keepers doing so well, coming out with such well-researched, well-polished videos and being paragons of better husbandry such as yourself, Joe, Liam and a great many others. It does make me feel the movement to 'take back' the hobby from the travesty the mainstream community zeitgeist became in the late 1990s through to the early 2010s has indeed been a successful one. It truly is in the hands of the next generation now.
When I first came online in 2004 and started talking about my own methods of keeping - gained through experience catching and watching the animals, and many, many years of trial and error - I was positively laughed out of the room when I talked about geckos and snakes basking under UV, or snake enclosures at least as long as the snake is, or using three different bulbs in one enclosure for different things. In many cases by keepers that had never experienced the animals in the wild, only as captive bred specimens bred in racks.
Now, not only is it not seen as 'odd' or 'fringe' to provide this, along with bigger, more considered enclosures that incorporate different forms of enrichment, it is becoming the norm in many cases. We have seen and witnessed this change, in real time. Perhaps it is not as evident over in America due to cultural and infrastructural differences in the hobby, as well as its size, but here in the UK we have seen a DRASTIC improvement in the welfare and visibility of good keeping in just nine years. A total about face! (We still have a way to go though).
Keep up the good work!
Well done ,,,,, I did enjoy ,,,, U is a great one in the animal world ,,, Congrats Bro
Glad you enjoyed it!
the human conveniece bias leans toward the smallest possible enclosure, so ppl who try to raise that minimum is good. my experience is when you tell people a 40gal is the minimum they will get a 20 lol
Yes😊
That doesn't make it ok. Just like when in dendrobate group they say that the frogs can't swim just because they think a water feature is too hard to keep for a beginner. You just end up with an entire generation who belive wrong info.
Plus, you also have regulation by law. At some point it might append that you will have minimum in the law, just like Swiss. Since the politics know nothing, they will ear info that is the most pushed and you might end up with an obligated minimum that is absolutely not a minimum.
Good Topic that really needed talking about.. i have been keeping for 18 years since i was 14 I'm uk based. my take on racks is i get that they are needed and important for breeding on larger scale but on the same hand how is breeding so many and keeping them in tiny draws any different to puppy mills ? where as a litter is a litter of cats or dogs but its a choice to hatch all 10 to 20 + eggs. they are willingly almost breeding outside their means.... my friend got a leo from a well known breeder who was all over the online scenes. this poor little girl went into the recommended 3 foot tank.. she didn't eat at all she never moved. we were never told she was rack raised till she enquired if she had ever even eaten.... her tank ended up just being a maze of boxes and tubes totally hidden it was the only way she would eat. she was essentially Agoraphobic. this happening is i think alot more common than people care to talk about. and in some cases i think explained away by failure to thrive...
I agree entirely. Certain lineages of certain species are absolutely domesticated and are very different from their wild counterparts, and I feel that often isn't taken into consideration. Of course some individuals thrive with complexity, but I've seen many cases where that isn't the case, sadly.
Yes.
Excellent info great introduction and reminder we need to have a plan in place for our reptiles if we are unable
Thanks for watching, Sean!
This topic is particularly tricky for me as I’m advancing my herpetoculture collection. I’ve owned reptiles and amphibians for the last 10 years, and I can honestly say I’ve only started doing it properly in the last 5. I’ve dedicated thousands of dollars towards two animals: a pacman frog and a created gecko over the course of those 5 years and I’m only finally satisfied with their current enclosures. That being said, I want to expand into something more challenging and large bodied, but my new standards have made it impossible for me to pick a new animal or evaluate how I should set it up.
I want to keep the same level of excellence and high standard care, but getting animals much larger than a gecko to my standards is seriously challenging. My budget just keeps getting bigger and bigger to accommodate animals that could still be comfortably accommodated at a fraction of the cost-I just can’t view it as anything other than a shortcut. It’s seriously frustrating to know that everything is an option yet I’ll never be satisfied with how I keep anything.
When I got my first ball python she wasn't kept in the best care for a few years until I actually started doing more research but then encountered some very angry people who called me abusive and told me I should rehomed my animal cause of the way I kept her, she was unfortunately on aspen, with a log hide and a water dish, she then moved up to a 40 aand while it wasn't ideal I slowly began making changes thanks to actual helpful people giving me advice on what to do, some even volunteering to send me some stuff for free, she went from Aspen and one hide and water dish to eco earth and cypress mulch mixture with two black hides and fake flower enrichment but recently i moved her into a Christmas tree tote with plenty of fake foliage and on Repti chip, but I still plan to.upgrade and improve more and more! I use what I learned with her with all my other reptiles
Slow improvements overtime is perfectly acceptable!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast that's exactly what I believe also, I like to think we are like pokemon, and as silly as that sounds lol I'm referring to the fact that all keepers veteran or novice keep evolving in the ways that they care for there animals, I'm not done at all with my upgrading of enclosures, I plan to eventually move both my ball pythons to 4x2x15s and my baby black rat snake a 4x2x2 since ive been observing how much he enjoys climbing and exploring high places, I'm also still researching other ways to give my animals the enrichment they very well deserve
As an "old schooler" who started out keeping what he could catch in the 1970's, I'd like to confirm that keeping may not have changed as much as you think. Those of us who like seeing animals move around and act like the curious creatures they are always built bigger and better enclosures using whatever we could to make them so, and the folks who had Noah's Arc syndrome just wanted as many animals as they could keep - therefore they justified racks. Back in the 90's/ early 00's, our local reptile club was free to talk about that stuff and no one was judged as evil by whichever camp they were in. Today, when every voice counts, its not a safe place to report anything but the going trend, and you better not talk about your failures or you'll be blasted - at least I was... Also, much of the tech y'all talked about was invented by old-schoolers; remember Bert Langerwerf and Agama International? Maybe not, but he was instrumental in developing modern UV awareness and touting reptile intelligence, although maybe not as highly as Tom C who is next level. Those guys are both a generation older then me, but have done more for the hobby and herps in general than can be imagined by many.
I guess what I'm saying is that I think the 2 camps, if there are only 2, are not old-school and modern, but collectors and pet keepers. And while I love the I-net for some things, it really feels like it destroyed the culture of equality that most of us felt as keepers -- used to be if you drove a Jeep, you had a comradery with other Jeepers, same for bikes and reptiles. Now its how superior you are based on the power of clickers, likes, hearts, or whatever. By that metric, the stupid voice counts as much as the intelligent voice and there is only one way for that to go.
L:ong rant, but I love what you're doing with these podcasts!
Thanks for watching the episode and adding your thoughts, Tom!
Thanks for the video! Just a few questions. What size are the enclosures behind you? What did you use to seal it?(silicone?)
Thanks for watching! You can find al the info and builds here 😎 th-cam.com/play/PLh5fybvrrZIdn1MHZNZqQt4rNx9jA12bL.html&si=IAdi2pwrgisqJ3H4
I was one of the arrogant progressives described here. I was determined that my first ever reptile would have a full bioactive enclosure, with sculpted foam and all this great stuff. I did all the research. I made spreadsheets. I used the best practices of the day. I created an incredibly detailed care plan. And then I got mites. (Maybe from a plant not sterilized correctly). That was awful. I tried to get rid of the mites without destroying the enclosure, but I basically had to scrap it and rebuild it. It was a humbling experience. I still keep that first reptile in a bioactive, but not the other ones I've gotten since. Their care needs were different, and the complexity of a bioactive would have prevented me from providing that care.
Thank you for sharing your story, Emma. That is certainly a trap that is easy to fall into, there are plenty of people out there promoting bioactivity as a starting point. As far as I concerned, this can make brand new keepers far too confident and over complicate the entire process (as you learned the hard way). Thank you for watching the episode!
I got mites from a new Corn Snake I adopted, even after a long quarantine!! I used to have 2 breeding pairs, & lots of babies of various ages… took me forever to get rid of them!! (I ended up having to trash everything & start over.)
Glad you got them under control- it’s a very stressful experience!!😊
I was in your spot too. I absolutely hated rack keepers, and I looked down on anyone at a level I considered "lower". Not only did I have a mite experience as you did, but I met quite a few rack keepers who have fabulous enriched setups, and some of the healthiest animals I'd ever seen. It was eye opening, and absolutely changed my mindset on so much. Thank you for listening!
Being afraid to show my own setups is so real and i think i go pretty far out for my animals with fully planted (moss and plants) , bioactive, uvb, heating, misting systems and more. But i am afraid that someone will go off and say that im not doing enough .
I know how you feel!
I've felt the same way, and I've heard a lot from people who are often thinking about getting into the hobby. I do far more than bare bones, but by some standards, I'm not sure anymore 🤣
I Have recently lost my OG leopard gecko he was 18 years old and he passed from heart failure. i had to travel to an exotics vet the only one around in about 50 + miles. so they see alot if not all of Lincolnshire's and even further away reptiles. i kept him the way i always kept him heat mat way and solid flooring. he did so well i had no need to mess with his fundamental setup.. first visit to the vets i was asked about my setup.. and i said yes i know its out dated but.. he was the oldest leopard gecko they had seen if the heat mat and solid flooring was as horrendous as people make out nowadays a species that should live 15+ years should be showing a longer lived generation with the "improvements" to their care when in fact seeing a leopard gecko over the age of 15 is quite rare... so are the improvements really for the animals or for the people and the businesses.. a heat mat can last years and years if well cared for and checked for hot spots etc so one purchase is years where as bulbs.. some heat bulbs your lucky to get 2 months out of and uv minimum every 6 months purchase.. the companies that are pushing for the change are the sellers off the bulbs... sell a £15 heat mat once every couple of years or a £8 basking bulb ever few months plus £15 uv every 6 months... mhmms wonder which one the companies gonna push ?
No one would suggest that a leopard gecko can’t survive in a tub with a heat mat and nothing else. That’s a commonly brought up counter argument, that they “survive” well enough in these enclosures so why change it? But just because they’re surviving doesn’t mean it’s the best method of letting them live. Studies have shown that animals kept in sterile, bare enclosures do more poorly on cognitive tests, and studies have also shown that heat mats are less effective at energizing reptiles than halogen bulbs, and that UVB has substantial health benefits to reptiles.
The reason why you see less older geckos who have lived to be 15+ years old who have been kept in naturalistic, ‘advanced’ enclosures is because the major transition to such keeping has only occurred in the last decade or so. 15 years ago the heat mat and tub was the norm, and even nowadays keeping with full spectrum lighting and naturalistic enclosures is hardly the norm.
I'm currently going through the mite fiasco
Oh man 😞 good luck with the battle!!
I prefer at least a shoebox sized , filtered pond , if not a wet filtered bottom
Or an actual filtered small fish tank within
I have dry setups as well , but , hate water dishes
I think this is a very thought provoking episode. We do have to start thinking about the escape plan - but please don't get too cynical guys. I think mentoring/apprenticeship may need to be a bigger practice.
Yes! Well said 😁
Thanks for sharing this. This was a great episode. I see too many keepers online getting too big of enclosures because that’s the “standard” then have no idea how to heat it or regulate the environment properly. I continue to say the health of the animal is more important then the size of the enclosure, but idk what the hell is going on today. The internet can be extreme and while I strive to make the biggest and baddest enclosures, I don’t ever expect anyone else to. I’d rather ppl care more about the health of their animal than the size of their enclosure or whatever the case may be. We all grow and as long as we continue to grow then we shouldn’t be blasting ppl for not doing things to this new “standard”. Everyone needs room to grow and learn and keepers should never gate keep new keepers. I mean a lot of us all started by capturing wild caught animals like turtles, frogs, and lizards
I share the exact sentiments, I feel the exact same way (obviously 😂)!
It was in a reptiles magazine article by a Amazon tree boa breeder: something to the effect of the only difference he noticed when providing his snakes with uvb was cloudy eye caps.
That’s probably a fairly old article. There was definitely issues with poor quality lighting/lamps in the early 2000s. Those lamps had high levels of blue light and caused eye problems. Today’s lamps from the big name reptile lighting brands (Arcadia, ZooMed) won’t cause those issues
i can accept that
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast
@@AnimalsatHomePodcastI find this very interesting and would like to read more. How many years do we have on these new lights and have they been tested with different pigmentation levels and animals? I have unfortunately seen some animals damaged pretty badly but it took 15 to 20 years for them to develop these problems so I am wondering if we have been able to study this long enough to really know how safe the new lights are. I'm very excited at the prospect of less damaging UVB lights, but a bit skeptical after some of the horrors that I've seen. Male animals ended up rejecting the UVB lights pretty heavily, but I do continue to offer they just immediately run away whenever the lights are on so I keep it minimalistic at this point. I'll have to look into which brands I have currently and the ones that were recommended here. I would love it if you could link some studies but I will go to Google scholar and see what I can find.
Thank you
Great conversation/episode! So many misinformation and miscommunication are creating a huge division in our community. Red bulbs are bad if used 24/7 not necessarily for basking during the day. Bins/tubs are bad or they have a place for hatchlings, quarantine, super reclusive animals, rehab situations, etc when the interior is appropriately equipped. Enclosure size: bigger is always better or of what I listed above plus how is the enclosure scaped, large and empty isn't better than smaller and completely decked out. The list goes on! The bottom line is there isn't only one way, one size fits all and if you aren't doing it this way then you are wrong. Knowledge is power but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Let's keep advancing our care by doing what works best for each species and each individual animal 🐍🦎💚
Well said, Rick! Thanks for watching, as always, 🙏🏻
Example: "There is some science now that says putting a snake in a dark tub is maybe not the best."
By now, do you mean 1965? Captive breeding pioneer Joe Laszlo (San Antonio Zoo) among others advocated using full spectrum lighting, publishing papers, and discussing it during lectures in the 60s and 70s. Many keepers experimented with lighting back then.
The thing about the plug-and-play generation is that they are arrogant in thinking that they are "advancing" husbandry and discovering new things. Enamored with the idea that they are the next-level generation of keepers. Modern and forward-thinking. Advancing the "Hobby."
Can anyone tell me what we "know" now that keepers didn't know in the 80s or before? What are keepers doing today that keepers of the "past" did not understand?
Yes, the industrial rack breeding boom seems to have erased the past in some sense. Most of us who weren’t around in the 80s, don’t realize that there were plenty of people pushing standards back then (and before then) Because when we look back 20 years ago, into the early 2000s all you see is racks (it’s also possible that the people breeding with racks were most active on the internet/ forums, etc.)
The unlit tub culture disturbed me the moment I saw at first hit the scene. Having a day night cycle is really important to most animals even if they're not actively out using that light. I was actually quite surprised when I saw that trending right around the time that you listed that people were even considering that. I'm glad that people have started pushing back on it cuz it never really sat right with me. circadian rhythm is just too important to too many species in unexpected ways for me to ever be comfortable risking that kind of environment for anything other than deep cave species that simply do not come into the light ever.
Reading this, I have to make two points...
1. The 'advancing' cover-all name came about from the original, best and by far most influential group so-named, Advancing Herpetological Husbandry, which was set up a decade ago by a bunch of very knowledgeable European keepers that certainly are no members of the 'plug and play generation' - amongst our founders were the likes of Darrell Raw, who showed Bert Langerwerf around South Africa looking at agamas and sungazers; Dr Frances Baines, who along with Gary Ferguson has done the most to codify and educate on our understanding of reptiles and their interactions with light over the last 50 years; Roman Muryn, one of the founder members of the British Herpetological Society in the 1960s, and the single person that has changed our understanding of how different IR wavelenghs affect reptiles in recent years; Paul Tapley with his immense garden enclosures... Ricky Johnson who, whilst certainly young, is now a college lecturer on the subject.... and least of all myself, who surfed through the 80s on the backs of some of the greats of herp keeping.
All these people witnessed the changes in the hobby, some of them fundamentally affected it at a deep and historic level throughout their careers, they rubbed shoulders with some of the all-time greats like Philippe deVosjoli, Chris Mattison, Ludwig Trutnau, Richard Gibson, Armin Geuss, Johann Krottlinger; Chris Davies, Tell Hicks, Daniel Bennett, Roger Avery, Jon Coote, Mark o'Shea.... contributing to the Litteratura Serpentium and the Ratsnake Foundation... and we watched the rise of the 'rack em, stack em generation' and a general downward spiral in welfare, and decided to DO something about it based on their own experience.
Do NOT mistake those people for the slew of enthusiastic but young amateurs that have taken up the 'advancing' moniker, in some cases plagiarising information, and leapfrogging off the brand; or the many precocious and skilled young keepers that are now taking this information and running with it to positively influence the hobby like JTB Reptiles, Reptiles and Research and Dillon himself... all these were able to come about as a result of the original AHH steering a large subset of keepers BACK towards the correct course. Most of the original founder members AHH no longer engage with the hobby at large or do their own thing (Roman Muryn and Fran Baines are stalwarts that spend all their time educating) and it is for the newer generation of keepers to keep up the trend, which channels like this do fantastically well!
The arrogance came from the then newer keepers in the early 2000s/2010s that were advocating the 'dark tubs' that had become mainstream, and the big name TH-camrs with their myriad of impressionable followers spreading this mindset that normalised this style of keeping.
2. I see a great many people view the past with rose-tinted glasses. Yes there were fantastic keepers like Joe Laszlo and Bert Langerwerf.... but to make out that they were anything LIKE the majority, that things like hot rocks were not the norm; that anoles and chameleons weren't virtually guaranteed a quick death; baby iguanas and terrapins given out as fairground prizes; that people weren't trying out things like blacklights and frying their reptiles; that species commonly captive bred today like Mandarin snakes, Hundred-Flower snakes and so on were not virtually guaranteed to snuff it... is wholly nonsensical. The hobby has come a LONG way.
Sure, some of the more intuitive and knowledgable keepers back then like Bert and Joe knew through observation and intuition what was best for the animals; but these things were not demonstrated or codified by science until much, much more recently. Until then, it was just anecdote and intuition.
Don't forget, it was not until Cabanac that people started realising reptiles were not the emotionless beings people thought they were; it was not until the mid-nineties that the first reptile-branded UV tubes were proiduced (Vitalite and Zoo-med); it was not until 1996 that the first literature on the effects of enrichment on snakes was published by Jersey zoo; it was not until 2008 that the first paper demonstrating positive effects of UVB on snakes appeared; it was not until 2015 that Roman Muryn hit on IR-a being the most important wavelength in heat and started broadcasting this to other keepers; it was not until the last few years that affordable UV-meters and power density meters have become available to the average pet keeper and widely used. In the last five years we have seen more academic literature regarding reptile emotion and welfare than the previous fifty.
A lot of that is NEW knowledge, there is NO WAY anybody can make out that we knew then what we know now - or that common practices today like providing UV for snakes were commonplace in the 70s and 80s - it just is not true. There were keepers ahead of the curve for sure, that went with their direct observation and pioneered a HUGE amount of knowledge that younger keepers take for granted today... but there was an awful lot of misinformation and awful husbandry back then too, and we simply did not have the calibre of equipment that we do today... and that will keep improving as time goes on. That's just how the world works.
One other thing I have noticed from interacting with keepers on both sides of the Atlantic - the European hobbyists were doing this longer, and better, than the Americans ever did. What is given as new information now or bandied about with trendy, fashionable names like 'bioactive' was commonplace a generation ago on this side of the pond. I see people in the comments arguing over enclosure sizes; over here the standard size is 4x2x2 for most things up to the size of a Corn snake, King snake or Royal python. In America I keep seeing 20 gallon and 40 gallon boxes suggested for everything. There is a huge disconnect in availability of wooden enclosures for example, and in the price of such enclosures. I can buy a 4x2x2 for £100 here, in the US it seems such enclosures are far more pricy. There is a big difference culturally in what is 'normal' in this hobby in Europe, and the 'rack em, stack em' style of using small dark tubs that we still call 'American style keeping.'
@@FranacondaAHH Reading all this, I have to make one point.......
Repeating things you have read (thinly researched and biased.) Then reciting your "findings" as personal interpretations is hardly informative. It's misinformation, but I will ask, did you personally know Joe Laszlo and Bert Langerwerf. Speak to them, about what they accomplished. Their methods and how they approached things. I certainly did know them. Were you involved with the reptile scene in the U.S., in the 70s or before? I Was. If you weren't there you do not know. What is your background? To make so many bold statements you must have quite a lot of first-hand knowledge of the people you talk about. Along with a lengthy professional and amateur history working with reptiles and the animal business, I know I do. What have you done?
@@FranacondaAHH Although various investigators have explored the effects of light on a variety of physiological processes in reptiles (see Gehrmann, 1994A for a review) it was Joe Laszlo who called the attention of the herpetocultural community to the importance of temperature (Laszlo, 1979) and light quality (Laszlo, 1969) for health and reproduction in captive reptiles. He consulted representatives in the lighting industry and found a relatively new lamp by Duro-Test Corp. with the brand name of Vita-Lite® which was a close match to natural light. The reptiles he exposed to these lamps seemed to fare better than those illuminated with cool white tubes or incandescent lamps. His brief publication in Intemational Zoo Yearbook quickly led to the almost universal use of Vita-Lite® which held sway until about 1990. Joe was especially interested in ultraviolet (UV) light and for a number of years until his untimely death in 1987, we collaborated with a view toward designing a reptile lamp with a greater but safe level of ultraviolet B (UVB) or midwave UV than found in Vita-Lite® and other lamps (Gehrmann, 1987). During this time in the 1980's, two students of Duane Ullrey at Michigan State University, Mary Allen (1989) and Joni Bernard (1995), began studies exploring the importance of vitamin D and UVB to the health of reptiles, with particular reference to calcium metabolism and bone formation. These studies contributed to the development of the variety of reptile lamps available today.
"At what point are we letting our personal ethics and morality weigh in to what we are telling other people....?" YES...there it is. Dylan this was hands down the best reptile keeping show I've seen. The only thing I heard said I would disagree with is that OG keepers want nothing to do with young keepers. I was born in 1958 in to a house with reptiles. And I'm thrilled with the advances that have been made. It's amazing we managed to keep anything alive back in the day. If you're an OG keeper and you don't think you have anything to learn I feel bad for your animals. I could respond to this episode forever but I would mostly just be echoing what's already been said. There is one thing useful I feel I can add. Because I know a LOT about how the Internet works. Care guides....and doing "online research".
The majority of what you see online is simply put up to make money. "Care guides" by and large are nothing but a parking place for affiliate links. These people may not even keep reptiles. They are copy/pasting the same "information" and peppering it with product mentions that make them money.
That...and some of the ideas currently floating around have taken on a cult like flavor. Bioactive and "choice based handling" are two that come to mind. Anyway Dylan, to answer your question...YES...we absolutely need a soft entry point. Not everyone has the means to create a zoo in their house. That doesn't mean they can't become excellent keepers who love and bond with their reptiles. Thank you again for this episode!
Thank you very much for listening, very glad you enjoyed the episode!
Thank you so much for watching and adding your feedback! I’m glad you enjoyed the episode
Folks get cult like about a lot of things. It happens in homeschooling, too.
😊😊😊😊🎉
Wonderful episode Dillon. I think that this is a very pertinent topic as I and many others are horrified at the mobbing and attacks being launched at keepers for reasonable and traditional methods which are, as you two stated in the episode, also valid and are not animal abuse. I think understanding this grey zone is exactly the discussion we need to be having with each other. That if we come together and respect each other rather than look to tear each other apart this hobby could be become a much better place for us and our animals.
This was absolutely the point I wanted to make, thank you so much for listening!
@@copperhead.reptilia You made a very good point and stated it very clearly. Thanks for bringing the discussion to the surface! This is a place I come to for healing and reflection and the aggression I have seen in the last year has made me feel less and less comfortable in the community.
Thank you so
I can't get the name of the doctor he spoke about multiple time like at 1h08. Can someone enlight me ? Thanks !
Dr. Zac Loughman! th-cam.com/video/pftnr4tCxl4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=EG71QiEhh-l82NY0
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast thanks !
The area where you guys talk about the babies and people throwing them into excessively large enclosures and then losing the animal and failing to see a serious health concern and then losing that animal to death is something that I have also thought a lot about. When somebody tells me that they think keeping the baby in a small enclosure is a concern, I offer up a middle ground of keeping the baby in a small enclosure for monitoring and so that it feels secure but also offering to allow it to come out into a large playpen enclosure for enrichment a couple of times a week or as the animal learns to communicate better as frequently as it would like. Then as the animal grows the enclosure can be made more elaborate and extended and we get the best of both worlds so that we do not lose the animal, we do not miss an important health event in the animal, and the animal has adequate exercise and enrichment opportunities well even while the enclosure is not yet maximized for enrichment in and of itself. I have found most babies have interest coming out for a playpen about twice a week in the beginning when they have the simplest and smallest living space.
That is a great way to do it!
I have a hard time with this implication that those advocating for larger or more enriched enclosures are being unreasonable, which I've been hearing more often lately. And I'm honestly tired of the tendency to label "the advancing husbandry groups" as elitists. Come on. It's not that simple and it's not so black-and-white. It conveniently ignores so much behavioral and husbandry-related nuance. Yes, a young snake may be overwhelmed in a large enclosure. Yes, a snake that has lived its life in a rack may be overwhelmed in a large enclosure. But that doesn't mean that a smaller, minimalistic enclosure is the best long-term solution.
Not every snake requires an 8x4x4 but it seems to me that the push in this video was to imply that young or fearful or shy snakes are therefore fine in small enclosures. "Sometimes the minimum is enough" is a nice rationalization but unless we're talking about life-or-death rescue situations, it's dangerous territory in a hobby filled with industrial style breeders and buyers looking for the easiest/cheapest husbandry approach.
Where is the recognition that helping an animal adjust to a higher quality enclosure is a stepwise process, not a matter of 'dump the animal in a big enclosure and if it doesn't adjust then oh well it obviously needs a minimalistic setup. Oh look, it's eating now. That must mean that racks are fine.' Give me a break.
We shouldn't stop advocating for high quality of care just because the reptile breeding industry is out of control. I see how many Ball pythons end up surrendered to rescues or literally get thrown in the trash. The reason that happens is not because some of us advocate for high quality husbandry.
I agree that a bare 4x2x2 and an animal provided with no enrichment is a worse setup than an environmentally complex 40 gallon and an animal offered regular enrichment. I am not trying to come off like some goddess of husbandry. I try to provide the best but my enclosures aren't zoo quality. However, there's a thin line between acknowledging that pet keepers need accessible setups versus slipping into "the minimum is enough" as a standard. This video came perilously close to saying that hey, racks/minimalistic enclosures are OK and it's cool to let kids provide mediocre setups because we don't want to be mean to the kids or scare newcomers away. The old "they eat better in racks" argument was even dug up again, with no pushback. Yes, I'm frustrated.
Respectfully, the point I was trying to make is that yes, by all means, every keeper should progress their care, and advance their husbandry over time. Stagnation is what leads to poor husbandry, in my opinion.
But the point I wanted to make is that there is a HUGE grey area between a massive enclosure, and a barren tub, and the vast majority of keepers fall into that middle range, but oftentimes, they provide perfectly fine husbandry for their animals, but are afraid to share their setups and animals because certain voices and influencers in the hobby drown those keepers out.
I absolutely advocate for giving the highest level of care possible, and unless for quarantine purposes, I never keep in sterile setups. Another point is that, yes, a 40g for a ball python is not the ideal, but is it better than a rack tub? Absolutely.
I will 100% say I'd rather see an adult ball python in a 40g with plenty of enrichment, than in a barren tub at a breeding facility. Obviously more space is always ideal, so long as all parameters are met within that space as well, but we as a community need to also embrace the keepers that provide more than a barren setup, but maybe aren't able to recreate Ghana for their Ball Python. There are 44,000 Ball Pythons on MorphMarket alone, and an unfortunate reality is that it's simply impossible to give all of them massive enclosures, but that we also need to accept that there are plenty of ways to humanely and ethically keep an animal without setting a $1000+ barrier to entry, or without devoting an entire room to an enclosure.
Everyone can keep in whatever way suits them, but so long as you always try to improve, that's the most important thing, and so long as someone always tries to move past a bare minimum, we as a community should accept and support them, and nurture further growth.
Again, full respect intended, and I feel I may not have worded things as well verbally in the podcast. Cheers!
Thanks for watching the episode and sharing your thoughts. I can certainly understand your frustration. Personally I don’t think this episode or guest was promoting minimalistic keeping. At the heart of this conversation (from my perspective) is acknowledging that there are keepers out there who want to better by their animals but don’t have the means to do so. These keepers are often intimidated to seek guidance for fear of reprisal and when they do, are accused of being cruel to their animals due to inadequate care. If these keepers are afraid to ask questions and embarrassed to share their current “starting point”, then “we” (the advancing community) have failed. Whether we agree with the “elitist” label or not, that is how we are often seen. It’s worth reflecting on why that might be.
Should these keepers have thought about the responsibility of caring for their reptile before acquiring it? YES. But how many of us actually did? Many keepers (including me) purchased their reptiles before fully grasping the significance of the responsibility. Should we chastise those keepers until they disappear (and so to their animals). Or should we come to terms with the fact that many of us aren’t able to keep idealistically and therefore should strive to help come up with husbandry methods that can act to offset other husbandry short comings (using a jungle gym for exercise, rather than upgrading to a massive enclosure for example).
I think it’s important to help people improve their care by treating them respectfully and help come up with solutions for them.
I really appreciate your comment. I 100% agree with everything you say here. You may be right that perhaps these admittedly nuanced points weren't super clear in the podcast. I also acknowledge that I may be reacting from my experiences as an admin in a few large FB groups, including AHH as well as a group dedicated entirely to new Royal python keepers.
It is absolutely true that most pet keepers can't start out with a 4x2x2 and full spectrum lighting, etc. We have to find a way to help them along a middle path that allows them to keep their new pet as well as possible while also helping them progress over time to a more ideal setup.
I think a lot of the issue may be that the industrial style breeders are seen as husbandry 'experts' so a lot of these beginners start out with frankly awful husbandry advice. And so the struggle begins. I agree that if a snake in a less than perfect setup is provided with environmental complexity as well as exploration, learning, and enrichment opportunities outside of the enclosure, that is better than a 4x2x2 box with minimal enrichment - but doing that requires a keeper willing to really learn what enrichment is and take the time to provide it. Thanks again for your thoughtful and courteous response - I definitely agree with your points.
@@caitwn8548 I agree with every sentiment you have 100%, and I very much appreciate your response as well!
The minimum seems to creep ever up.
When I was a kid getting into it. people reccomended a 10 gallon for leopard geckos. Nowadays commonly I see 20 longs or 40s. But there's people pushing for 4x2x1 too.
I advocated for larger cages a lot back in the 90s/early 00's, but there's a lot of people advocating minimums--not ideal, but minimums--that are absolutely well over minimums. A 3-4' corn snake absolutely does not need a 4x2x2 to do well--it's great to give them that, particularly more height--but they can do well and get exercise in a 3x2x2. A really small adult may be fine in a 40 breeder.
It does seem, that some of the Advancement people,while they do have genuinely good intentions, they are quite zealot like. They do border line sound anti keeping as nothing seems to be good enough for them. I think they should show people the end goal, and give newbies the skills to achieve that, but allow them to get there in a steady time, once they have built the skill set to be able to do this. You don't pass your driving test and automatically become an F1 driver. You need to get the basics down before you can broaden your skill set. In regards to care guides, I much prefer using books on the natural history of the Animal I'm getting, and use that to base my husbandry around. Also the climate data websites are a godsend.
How does someone enrich for brongersmai?
I would say look to their natural history and try your best to use elements of their natural habitat as enrichment. For example, I would think deep substrate and heavy amounts of leaf litter would be excellent enrichment.
Oh, and a varied diet is an easy one to implement as well!
Hi James!
I actually keep a 4 year old adult female brongersmai- she currently has a 6x3x2 enclosure- for species that are largely sedentary like the short tails, I usually recommend deep substrate, ample decor for them to hide around, large amounts of leaf litter, some sort of burrow type structures, as well as a large water feature, because they do love humidity and will soak after large meals. Food cycling and prey type rotation is also a great way to spice up their care :)
what types of prey and rotation?@@copperhead.reptilia
i hear you, i just dont like the idea of all the things that come with dirt and leaves.
I keep and breed tarantulas that point you made on sling enclosure size was bang on. Iv just had a egg sack of 135 Psalmopoeus irminia. I'd never have room if I didn't use 25ml vials for slings 😂
Not to mention, you’d never find them! 😂 congrats on the successful pairing
A 40 gallon for a ball python is too small, but saying that you can't even keep a leopard gecko is a little bit weird...
I took it as….. At 10 years old he received a Ball Python that he kept in a 40 gal. Time stamp 46:05 and in currently in a 4x2x2.
I've gotten chased out of discords & reptile subreddits for suggesting that a leopard gecko doesn't NEED a 4x2 to survive. The reptile community has seen a lot of traumatic care mistakes hurt a lot of animals, so they are going to overcompensate their recommendations. Totally understandable. I just don't like it when people get all weird and condescending about it.
I am new to this channel: T.H.AN.K. Y.O.U
two guys- ESPECIALLY CHRIS….. for being a VOICE OF REASON in an a community which is being verbally THRASHED by a minority few folks… 😬🤔
•••Perhaps I am an “old school” Herper, but I come from the era of: *if you wanted to own it, you had to FIND IT… END of story. (Or, find it at a mom & pop pet shop, as there were NO big box pet stores, & NO name brand reptile products….)
This is TRUTH.
THEN, later, along came HOT ROCKS….. & now to today’s reptile environment….
(some folks are GETTING OUT OF CONTROL…. (An entire ROOM for a single LEOPARD GECKO is just stupid.)
Regardless, I eat, sleep, & LIVE REPTILES… I have every moment of my entire life, & that will never change.
COMMON Snapping Turtles are my infatuation, & always will be…. (alligator snappers now that they are available captive bred, too- but also Bearded Dragons, tortoises, & corn snakes & others, of course!!)
I LOVE THIS CHANNEL & LOVE the PODCASTS!!!🥰😊💚🐢🐍
Minimum husbandry standards is enough…they eat better in racks….they stay curled up in a ball all day anyway…..come on, that’s just sad.
I feel like I've seen a lot of anthropomorphizing animals as well. I've kept animals most of my life, my wife had never kept any reptiles or anything before we got together. For a long time she would compare reptiles to humans; would you want X? And that made me realize more and more when others did the same thing. We need to realize these do not have human brains and needs, AND they have individual personalities to boot.
If you have 1 year experience yees... 10-30 with bio setups at zoo properly not? 😂
Interesting being told how to care for animals from someone who works with animal testing from the sounds of it. Only thing I agreed with in this episode was the subject that a snake is a snake is a snake. The rest to my ear sounded like someone who is more bothered about how many animals and species they’ve kept instead of how they are keeping them. Hypocrisy and contradictions and condesention to justify their way of keeping large numbers. I don’t think I once heard him say that his methods are fallible. Nothing more dangerous than someone who thinks they know everything. Normally love your conversations but this one was a bit of a let down imo.
Can’t win em all! Thanks for watching
😊🎉🎉😊
Yeah.. I love the podcast but this one ain't it. I do not like this guy. Don't know who he is. I don't really like his message or how he delivers it. That's all I'm gonna say.
I do appreciate keeping the podcast a mixed bag though.
To answer you- I'm a keeper of 16+ years, with well over 70 species under my belt personally and professionally in that time, and a career of almost 9 years in animal husbandry, as well as humane care and handling procedures.
I'd like to hear what you take issue with- I'm the first to admit I don't always word things the way I hear them in my head, and I wish I could reword multiple things to make my point clearer, but let me make something clear, as I have lower in the comments- I'm not advocating for minimal care or husbandry.
But in my 16+ years in this community, we've never been more black and white than we are now. A minimal rack with no enrichment is obviously not ideal, but the point I was trying to make in this episode is that as a community, we consistently overlook the vast majority of keepers who are neither rack keepers, nor keepers who keep in massive, elaborate setups, which many sources now try to treat as the bare minimum for proper captive husbandry, which is simply not true, as multiple factors apart from space go into proper husbandry.
Increasing your personal standards of care is something as keepers we should always strive for, and if you stagnate, you do yourself and your animals a disservice. But at what point does the hobby stop beating up on pet keepers who do far better than a rack, but keep in less than a massive, zoo grade enclosure?
At some point we have to admit that a 40g is definitely not the end-all of care, but is it better than an empty tub?
Absolutely, and as a community we often overlook perfectly humane care of animals in lieu of choosing rack vs. advanced setups. My point being, there is so much grey area that remains unaddressed in our community, and we truly need to stop beating up and judging the keepers who fall in that area (who are the majority, from firsthand experience) and still have animals that are healthy, cherished, and well kept.
This is all food for thought, and meant respectfully, I might add- sometimes my typing comes off blunt.
The first episode I don’t fully agree with 🥲
Consider that a good thing! We don’t want to end up in an echo chamber. However, I suspect the reason you disagree with this is the same reason other folks below disagree with it. You can find my response to them below 😀