Feel the same way. Just built up way to fast and now its taking years to downsize without tossing animals away. definitely don't want to breed as much as I could. Great episode!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Thank you for being one of the most enjoyable channels out there, lol I have such a hard time paying attention to anything but I find almost all your content fascinating! Everyone with a reptile should see your stuff! I've tested so many things and even with the right set ups most ppl don't have heated rooms so ambient temps are off and messes with proper development. Almost every issue out there starts with having one perimeter off.
There definitely needs to be balance. From a legal standpoint a blacklist system on what is legal to own (as opposed to a whitelist) is better in my opinion. As some creatures cannot be kept in a house in someone's hobby time and for conservation keeping them in nature is simply the only chance the animal has - like marine iguanas - as an example. Personally, addiction or an addictive like rush of something new is to be avoided. I've never had any sense of addiction or even want to drink alcohol or other common vices. That's what I think of for when it looks people go from one reptile to 5 years later they have 100 animals. It's not Herp culture, it's a human being's flaws in rushing to go big and fast into something new. This hobby does involve animal lives which is the important thing to remember. I'm an idiot so someone else could explain it better...just two cents here
Thank you for pointing out the mental benefits of reptile keeping. I have PTSD and nothing helped during my episodes. A friend happened to introduced me to his snake and when I first handled it I felt such a peace. So I got one for myself. I believe we were meant to live alongside animals and that we can form connections with them. This is extended to all animals not just the socially accepted pets.
I was about to comment the same, diagnosed with complex ptsd and after the loss of my Dad in 2018 I got my first reptile and I’ve seen a massive improvement in my symptoms 🫶
just wanted to say, i suffer from a lot of anxiety (in terms of my own expectations and success). the first day i held my corn snake, it was the first time in a very long time that i wasn’t anxious about school, future expectations, etc. and she has continued to bring me peace over the entire year i’ve had her❤️ (so much so that i got another snake and he’s taught me what understanding truly means.)
I've noticed and have had several discussions about the entire reptile keeping culture and how it's changed because of people like you on TH-cam who are not just learning as you go, but sharing what you learn. We have the knowledge we have today because of you and others like you. Care for reptiles has improved immensely over the last decade, the importance of heating and moisture and how to keep live plants are all common knowledge now. Entire industries of care products have grown from these channels. At least in level of care we on the right track.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast I have had pets since childhood,mostly small mammals and birds. The last pets I had were house rabbits who free ranged in my home,using a litter box,etc. I think it is ethical to keep reptiles,however the breeding of reptiles in glorified shoe boxes really bothers me....A lot. I'm getting my first gecko this month,a gargoyle gecko from a breeder. I have no desire to collect animals and have only kept small groups of social animals. Anyway,the dopamine hit you spoke of does apply to animal hoarders and I do feel that there is a goodly number of reptile keepers who have a hording problem. Anyway,this has to be the very best program I feel you have ever done and it really tugged at my heart strings. I would enjoy you doing a program on rewilding cause I got to participate in a small still ongoing project in NC...Also,going a step further and that is reptile breeders raising native animals to be gradually returned to the wild (we did this in wildlife rehab.) It was so satisfieing returning a creature to it's native habitat. Anyway,thank you for a truly outstanding podcast.
One of my most rewarding experiences is building that trust and the time that it takes it becomes such a great pleasure to have the interaction where you know they do trust you.
How Reptile keepers can paint the following image for non keepers: Continuously illustrate to non reptile folk that the hobby gives people a greater respect for nature and wildlife. Aids in conservation and preservation. Allows people to participate in citizen science and add to literature. Grants keepers a sense of responsibility and purpose and belonging. OR allow the non keepers to draw their own conclusions as to why someone would want to own many snakes, by ignoring them entirely. Now which do you think is more likely to be the catalyst for government legislation? 21:40 is the end of the quote for reference. This was a very eloquent and well articulated point here Dillon. I think this should defo be a snippet to take out for a short or something that can be easily shared.
I've been keeping reptiles for well over 30 yrs on and off. Through those years I've burned out a few times because I just couldn't have 1 or 2. I had to collect and ad on more and more till it became a job I didn't want to keep doing. No longer enjoyed it at all. I got my dream snake 4 yrs ago, then decided I needed to breed him. I started down that road of collecting more and more again. I finally woke up and stopped myself. I have 4 snakes now and its quite manageable and I'm enjoying it emenssly. I'm staying here with just these so these animals have good long healthy lives. As for the ethics of keeping, there is a conservation reason to keep them as many will lose their homes in the wild as long as humans keep reproducing and taking the wild lands. We need to save what we can. These are living intelligent beings that deserve to be saved and kept as best we can gor the future. I appreciate what you are doing my friend. Keep pushing the hobby forward.
One of the best things I always keep in mind is Tom Crutchfield said keep less with more enrichment than a bunch without it and that has stuck with me. I think a lot of us that have been in the hobby a couple of decades have really come to that general feeling in recent years especially.
I do think it is ethical to keep animals. The importance is the education and conservation that we can learn from keeping amazing creatures. So many discussions can be had, but I'm not savy at leaving comments. Love your channel and the network. Thank you so much!
I love the message behind this video. I started out like many new reptile keepers. I got my first reptile and within a few months I had 10+ reptiles. After about 1 year I realized I was riding that Hedonic treadmill (although I didn’t know that term haha). I stumbled across your channel, I think for the video where you built the glass enclosure. And what is funny is I came across your channel for a practical reason (learning to build a fancy box aka enclosure haha) and I found myself deep diving into your channel which caused me to have a huge existential crisis about herpetoculture and keeping in general. This resulted in me rethinking everything about what I keep and how I keep. My entire point of view changed, in part, thanks to your podcast. Now there were a lot of things that happened simultaneously that contributed to my shift in the way I view herpetoculture, but your podcast gave me the foundation and I appreciate it so much. I hope that other keepers can stumble across this video and have the revelations I did. I hope that people new to herpetoculture and keeping reptiles can stumble across this video and realize early on not to make the same mistakes many new keepers do. Sorry about the long comment haha to sum it up, please publish.
Education is key. Passion is key. Regulation is sometimes needed. Without those you will always have that question. Is it ethical? Because you will always have those few people who will somehow neglect their animal for whatever reason. Like you said being able to keep these animals is a privilege.
Great episode. I completely agree that we need to advance our care, learn all we can about the species we keep, avoid getting in over our heads, donate if possible to keep our wildlife safe and thriving. However I don't only see our responsibility ending there, one of the most important thing we need to do is bring the information we learn to the keepers who aren't aware of podcasts like these or Facebook groups that actually want to progress the hobby. I know first hand the resistance and negativity that comes your way, no matter how politely you try to impart information on someone who "knows better". If only a small group of our hobby is doing what has been laid out here and I suggest if you watched the video you likely already are, then when the masses look to see what is going on in our hobby they will be left seeing some very sad examples of reptiles in captivity. I do my best by my pets, I try to post examples of what can be achieved and I will most importantly continue to try and get other keepers to see that there are better ways, so they too can advance the hobby. Keep pushing our hobby forward, I recommend this podcast and the others under the umbrella often. Sorry for the long rant!
After many years of keeping reptiles and arthropods, I finally find great content that explores one of the most important questions of the hobby. Just never met anyone who has even though of it. It’s just the keepers never really adressing it, and the non-keepers going ballistic when they see a gecko in a small tupperware at an expo. I actually sold all of my wild-caught geckos recently, just because thinking of them being thousands of miles away from where they are supposed to be it’s kind of cruel. And sometimes I regret having done so, because they were doing great actually. Somehow this mindset doesn’t really exist when it comes to captive-bred specimens. Mainly because they were not taken from their habitat, even though their parents probably were. For female tarantulas it’s generally easy to explain they tend to live for over a decade in the same burrow, naturally. So, I guess it makes it easier to see them through a glass box. For reptiles it’s more of a “their habitats are being destroyed by the minute” thing. Which is true, of course, but it’s kind of a camouflage we, keepers, use when we are confronted with the whole freedoom question. In my opinion, there are keepers who are really not keeping for the sake of the animals, but for an anedoctal idea of income, or simply because they can. But, the majority, I believe cares for the animals and try to give them their best life, with the possible resources. Even for the WC animals, it’s not like all of us can get into a flight and put them back in their enviornment. They deserve to have the best life, even given the circumstances.
Glad you found the channel! Hopefully you have a chance to explore the other episodes and shows as well (www.animalsathomenetwork.com) Thank you for adding you thoughts as well!
I empathize with you Dillon. I appreciate the compliment too, thank you. If you ask the question was it ethical for humans to start keeping reptiles in captivity, I have to be honest and say in most cases (I can think of exceptions) no. I cannot justify how it is ethical to take away someone's freedom. They value their freedom so much and the more I keep snakes and the more freedom I allow them, the more evident it is that they do not want to be confined. Not that they don't appreciate and spend time in their enclosures but they want the doors open to come and go as they please. If you're asking is it ethical to keep snakes in captivity that are already in captivity, the only answer is yes. I think it would be highly unethical to turn them all loose and expect them to fend for themselves and I think the ethical thing to do is to give the animals under captive management the best lives we are able and continually strive to progress their well-being. The question is should be continue to produce or add snakes to captivity in the future? The one's here now we have an obligation to care for and care for well. Should we add more? I just don't know. Some days I think, no, we should care for the ones we have until they are all gone and then that's it. Other days, I think maybe its ok under certain conditions. When you put the animals first, I mean truly think of them above all else it is difficult to justify taking away their freedom and producing animals destined to be born into captivity doesn't seem right. I go back and forth but at night when my snakes are active and so many want out of their enclosures it is hard to think it is ok to force them to live in boxes. From the animal's point of view the only way that I think we can truly justify it is to give the animals the choice to live in our homes or not, I mean all those Carpet Pythons that people find in their homes in Australia and call snake catchers to remove; I would just be like "cool, there's a Carpet Python living in my house" and welcome them to stay! I have two Bredli that are seldom confined at all anymore. Keep up the great work and sharing the very important message of progressing care, Lori
Thank you for watching, Lori! I think we are very much on the same page. It’s hard to justify the initial removal from the wild. Definitely difficult questions to answer! It does give me a lot of anxiety when I see my snakes wanting out as well 🤷🏼♂️. Thanks again! 😊
In the 70’s and 80’s, I was considered a weirdo for keeping reptiles. It was incredibly hard to give them optimal conditions but I did my best including ordering books in German that I would then get a friend to translate page by page. I did meet collectors who specialized in a species and who knew more about said species than any zoo and often gave advice to them concerning breeding. Nowadays, it is not considered abnormal to be interested in reptiles and the information, equipment and food available is brilliant. My complaint though is that we now realize how intelligent they can be and I hate seeing them in tubs or bare enclosures. I don’t care what breeders tell us, I have seen most species in both and there is no comparaison in their behaviour.
This was a very good listen! I got into the ethics of how we treat livestock while I was in college and it changed my world. There's a lot of crossover with herpeticulture as well. There's a responsibility that comes with taking an animal out of nature/the wild and putting it into captivity. Our animals deserve the best we can give them.
Great episode! I appreciated hearing the different stages that you went through in reptile keeping. I have gone through those same stages and I would like to believe that many reptile keepers have also done the same. Reptiles are the same as any other pet in their ability to provide mental benefits to keepers. Being able to care for my reptiles after I come home from work is very beneficial to me. It is almost meditative and it is certainly enjoyable! Thank you again for giving reptile and nonreptile keepers topics to consider about reptile keeping and the best ways to do so.
Great video. For a while I've found myself stuck between both sides of the hobby. I enjoyed my breeding experiences and hope to breed again in the future (where I feel it is ethically/morally OK to do so). I lost the enjoyment out of "keeping" the snakes with the breeder mentality. I am now a lot happier with less animals and giving what I have more. That being said I am still miles away from where I want to be in terms of care, but I know I will get there. Evolving as a "keeper" is a beautiful thing and you're right, the animals reward us for making positive husbandry changes. Great channel, really enjoyed the new boa enclosure.
Super on-point discussion. Thank you for not being afraid of bringing this up! I personally can't wait until I can have several pets one day because I do think it is a special relationship between humans and animals, and it can be super rewarding to provide them with the utmost care. I think the animal enjoys it as well! However, the breeding culture definitely puts me off sometimes. I don't have plans to breed any animals, just want a few to love and cherish
I went for many years without keeping them--just thought it was cool enough to see them around outside. But then I had a son, and I wanted him to be exposed to them. To understand them. And that works best for kids sometimes when they're able to keep one. They develop a different kind of relationship. A closeness.
I generally agree with the points you make! Although my views/justifications are more simplistic. My opinion is that keeping animals can be ethical IF all of their welfare requirements are met. This is why I have such a big problem with the reptile hobby, because the wellbeing of the animals seems to be a mere afterthought. I find many common practices to be non-ethical and absolutely deserving of outside criticism (especially in the snake hobby, which I am most familiar with). It is for this reason that I try to support the industry (in its current form) as little as possible. I would never buy a snake from a breeder keeping their animals in the standard rack set ups (which is the vast majority of breeders). I would never buy a ball python regardless of circumstances as the market is absolutely flooded and reptile rescues are full of unwanted pythons. I adopted both of my snakes and I plan to adopt any future ones. Personally, I think there should be more regulation in the hobby, especially when it comes to large and venomous species. There should also be regulations for minimum spatial requirements and enrichment levels in enclosures, especially for commercial breeders. Would that make snakes more expensive and less accessible? Possibly. So what? Keeping an animal is a privilege not a right. People generally seem to understand that most practices producing many animals for cheap, such as factory farming and puppy mills, are unethical - but as soon as reptiles are being kept that way it’s totally fine. As long as those standards are widely accepted in the hobby (which includes more “reasonable” keepers turning a blind eye and failing to call out the irresponsible actors), it is - quite frankly - not worthy of respect.
Thanks for watching, Cathy! I appreciate you adding your thoughts as well. Your framework is a good, simple one, that I think anyone could easily implement! Thank you for laying it out :)
Exactly. I just watched a video where someone went over their most and least expensive snakes. They had multiple racks with little trays where they kept their snakes. They were given the same level of consideration that a guy would give their loose nuts and bolts.
Thank you for posting this. It's an important discussion. It's indeed a privilege not a right. I moved to bioactive enclosures for all of my reptiles recently and will never go back to basic terrariums. My snakes are visibly less stressed therfore happier
A lot of this reminds me of the invert community. I am one of those that found something from keeping, it's helped me a lot in life already and I haven't been at it for long. Thanks for talking about this topic.
Hi Dillon! Jana here! I tried to post a comment but I don’t think it went through so I will try again! I am in the Amazon and the internet is not great! I remember our conversation and how you opened my eyes!
Hi Jana :) I was so happy to see that you were making your way back out to the land to take it back. GOOD LUCK! So glad that one of the viewers made a donation, that is awesome. Some day I will come with you for sure. Until then, have an amazing trip (I know you will) and maybe when you are back in Canada we should consider recording another episode of the podcast! It's been a long time!
i just watched this, i agree this was great to listen too!! i have depression and severe social anxiety and me getting my three snakes has made me so much happier and i feel needed to stay alive for my snakes. they’ve also helped me socialize and interact more with people. i can be having a bad anxiety attack and just taking my snakes out helps me so so much. i hate that a lot of people keep reptiles because it’s “cool” to keep them. i’ve seen people get snakes and then get rid of them a few years later because they didn’t realize how big they would get. i wish people did more research before getting reptiles to see if they are actually responsible enough to take care of them and it’s something they want to keep for 20-35 years or more.
True! For many species, captivity may be their only chance of existence in the near future. The general public cares little about wild reptiles as evident by the rampant destruction of habitat in so many places. We who value these animals for simply being what they are - we have to be the ones to change the perception of the public towards reptile keepers. And that change is happening thanks to many of you who constantly produce content supporting and encouraging ethical keeping.
Really well done, and I am not a reptile keeper but I do have an interest in snakes and geckos and blue-tongued friends. I think you are a well thought-out podcast maker and that is something I very much appreciate. Anyone can talk into a mic and publish it but you sir have made a podcast worth listening to. I am looking forward to future episodes!
I also as a comment reflected below have complex ptsd, personally from some next level cruel human perpetrated trauma against me without getting into it, and so showing animals empathy and receiving that innocent bond from them is so healing. I believe it’s ethical when you of are well informed and take great care, just like you. In my case my current reptile was a newborn baby I rescued that wouldn’t have survived without being in captivity, and we have truly saved eachother and I spend every single day doing even more research no matter how much I know into reptiles and animals and my species in particular to ensure my care is ever evolving. I believe that empathy and selflessness when loving your animal leads to doing your best and usually a very well cared for animal, and in turn that animal makes you happy and fulfilled to if you are a true ethical animal lover.
I'm so glad I came across this podcast and especially this episode. This has given me so much to think about and a reminder to keep my focus on bettering the lives of the animals that I have.
This was a very well thought out, informative, organized and (most of all) important presentation. Thank you for taking the time to put this together and bring it to the public. I will be sharing this whenever I come across a situation where I think it will be most helpful. 🤗💞
Ive had to ask myself this same question and have given it quite a bit of thought. Many of which run along the same lines as some of your reasonings. What is my purpose for having this drive to keep these animals, i find so fascinating, in a captive setting. My answer for myself wasn't a simple or short one, but dug at me to be found. My finding was if it bothers you that something even might bother your captive animals, so feel compelled to provide them with anything that comes to mind that at least may be beneficial and so appreciated. This mindset is what drove me to ask if my keeping is ethical. If you aren't constantly making improvements while learning more about the animals you are keeping to make said improvements, you may not be keeping these animals so ethically. This answer has helped me too see who simply has a reptile hobby, and who has a reptile passion. I could go on but this video hit home for me, as ive asked many of these same questions mentioned in your video, in a greater effort to "justify" my own keeping. I am still in the process of building a "large" educational facility on the entire main floor of my home. All setup with some interesting and ingenuitive methods of maintaining the animals health and enclosures it holds. From custom built, automated self maintaining and fully effective, Filtration systems. This includes a perpetual water exchanging system that is constantly swapping water from the animals enclosures with temperature regulated fresh filtered water, setup to reach each "finished up and running" and "future works in progress enclosures" for growing animals under my care now. With plans to eventually begin tours to educate younger grades of students initially, and as these youths grow and either take to the fascination or pass it on have opportunities for these interested passionate children to more regularly come by and learn to not simply keep and grow animals in captivity, but keep and grow with them. With a healthy amount of tools to getting them well on their way, for future generations of keepers to always be better than the last... Thanks if you had the interest to read this far. I could go on but it wouldnt find an end so this is where i stop... :)
Thanks man 🙏 I see you are on a good path as well, likely regarding more than only asking these difficult questions to better make improvements, but turning the thought into a message for other keepers too ask themselves as well... 🐍 🐊 🐸 🐢 🕷️ 🦂 🐟...
I completely agree with the statement about someone else who doesn’t want you to keep reptiles and you go on and do it anyway because YOU wanted to do it. You’ve betrayed their trust. They trusted you to respect their wishes and you let them down by going against their wishes. I’ll use this as an example: I live in a place where they do say no pets. If I decided I wanted an axolotl and started researching and bought all the stuff, set it up and then went out and bought it and brought it home, someone would see me bring it in and I would be reported to our board of directors. In the place where I live, there is almost always someone sitting in the family room. It would not go unnoticed. We also have people at my place who are early risers and do not like loud noises at night (like someone’s bird screaming in the middle of the night is a good example). You have to be considerate if you’re married, you live in a transitional group home like I do, you’re a parent, etc. I rely on this group home to drive me to the grocery store and to activities on the monthly calendar. I also agree you cannot say “I’ll do what I want.” You have to respect other people’s wishes.
I have PTSD and extremely high anxiety and I agree with keeping reptiles! Because of how I adopted my two anole lizards! I fell in love with them and I feel at peace watching them in their enclosure! I couldn't be happier with them!
This has inspired me. We plan to talk about it on my weekly Facebook/TH-cam. Love to hear more especially the list of 5 things we provide for captive they don't get in the wild. been looking through back episodes but could not find the list
Thank you for watching! Are you referring to the 5 freedoms of animal welfare? I have a link to a paper discussing them in the description. I also when through them on this episode: th-cam.com/video/F1QXoSZa5Aw/w-d-xo.html
I believe I have just as much a right to reptiles as I do a dog or cat. Yet as a keeper I believe it is our responsibility to create the best life for our animals. They didn't choose to be with us we chose them so we should give them the best we can personally offer. Even if you can't have the greatest enclosures in the world you should always be evolving your husbandry for the better and your skills and knowledge will grow as you do.
thank you SO much for this episode. I'm very happy that I found the side of TH-cam that acknowledges the problems in the community while simultaneously uplifting and not coming down on people who aren't familiar with the moral side of reptile keeping in the hobby. I've always struggled with the morality of keeping pets in general and will likely continue to do so. I do keep multiple frogs, a crestie and two cats. The exotic pets have bioactive setups and lots of space. Still, the question of "what gives me the right to keep them from the wild" plagues me some nights. I have c-ptsd and my pets help me immensely with regaining my sense of selfsufficiency. still, isn't it egocentric to "use" them for that purpose? Just the croaking sound of my frogs makes me happy. I've been to the rainforests of South America (I live in Germany) and I've always been in love with these kinds of environments. Kinda wish to be a frog myself. Anyway, thank you for your work in preserving these beautiful landscapes & the critters that live in them
This is wonderful and you make great points. It's not just about "rights," because with rights come "responsibilities." If there is no responsibility, of course the general public is going to be disgusted and less empathetic or sympathetic towards a group of people that show little to no empathy for the creatures they keep. In general, the way humans treat animals has progressed a lot just in the last century, so if one group of people (some reptile keepers) are for some reason clinging to antiquated practices that disregard the animals' welfare and well being? Why wouldn't the general public support anything that prevents people from keeping them as pets? Optics as well as genuine care that generates welfare and husbandry standards matter.
More dialogue like this is needed in herpetoculture, well done my friend! That being said I would argue it’s unethical in its current state.. The reason for this is no accountability and easy accessibility to the animals themselves.. Being an ethical educated keeper requires a ton of effort, study, and dedication.. However, none of that is required to acquire animals under the vast majority of circumstances..People are inherently lazy by nature which by default means the vast majority of people purchasing animals aren’t taking it seriously. This is because there isn’t any general standards/agreements to do so, as we’ve been given the “Right” to own them under our own terms for better or worse.. I also believe it should be considered a privilege, but that’s not the reality due to the hobby being infused into a massive industry, which is why we have so many unethical keepers.. Simply put it’s mostly about what makes them happy hence the selfish behavior I’ve seen over the near 30 years I’ve worked in the pet industry.. I myself was a keeper for over 20 years and I provided large custom naturalistic enclosures for my 60+ reptiles. But I eventually felt terrible about the situation they were in, even though I was providing above average care and doing education with them via my herp society. I stopped keeping personal animals back in 2014 and now focus more on herpetological conservation projects with my local DNR and work at my local nature center that is focusing on environmental education with the public.. After all my primary interest was always the science of Herpetology and not just keeping animals.. So I essentially found something that was more rewarding and productive for me personally , i.e. conservation and education.. I could go on and on about the issues I have with the fixed mindsets people tend to have about herpetoculture but it’s almost futile in my daily life dealing with customers/hobbyists.. I hope you continue to spread the message of proper etiquette in the reptile community, it’s something that is badly needed, keep up the good work..👍 I’ll leave you with my 5 tenets of animal husbandry.. 1. Don’t buy an animal because you want it, buy it because you understand it.. 2. Don’t buy a baby if you can’t properly keep an adult.. 3. It’s not about what you can do, it’s about what you should do.. 4. Select animals that fit your space, budget, time, and skill level.. 5. You never know how well you’ve done with an animal until it dies..
I love your tenets! I also think it's not a great idea to buy a baby unless you've already taken care of an adult. Things can go wrong so quickly with babies and we can read info til we're blue in the face but experience is the best teacher of all. The usual difference in cost is there for a reason
Listened to parts, may continue later but these are my thoughts ATM: most hobbies are ethically complicated, particularly when it involves live animals, but every hobby also involves living humans and can be life saving (and the opposite :/ ) particularly when a communities and other people are in involved . So for myself, I want to engage in hobbies in ways that feels right to me, one of learning, changing, allowing for mistakes. But I also don't want to engage in way that restricts others in way that may be harmful and make the hobby unnecessarily harder to to be part of/less accessible. For example, conservency is a great personal gol and collective goal for those within the herp community that want to be part of it, but I don't think that needs to be a goal for everyone -- that's a bit overwhelming expectations and also just may not be a interest to someone, who may just enjoy keeping. Similar, doing the best one can do for the animal -- that's also a great personal goal, but mine is to give animals in my care (including feeder (insects) while they are alive), a reasonably good life (enjoyable, engaged, and healthy life), which seems like achievable goal for myself -- where as the idea of "best" is hard for me to quantify personally and can trigger unnecessary anxiety of not meeting that bar. That's somewhat an anxiety thing tho.. On freedom and taking them from the wild and restricting them... Toss up. Like super complicated as talked about, so much I sorta just went whatever. My animals are captive bred for most part (outside of blue bottle beetles), whether they'd have a better life outside depends on so many factors. Valuing freedom over all else is a very American thing (compared to other cultures, many tend to prioritize well being over individual freedom) -- what the animals think about it cannot really know (tho may be some way to study it -- for example, study animals trying to escape a cage??) It's something to consider but 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️ toss up . Not being able to really tell what an animal is really enhances this complicatedness. On effects that are a pro to this hobby Since getting herps, I've switched to eat more vegetarian due to empathizing more with factory farmed animal conditions, I think that having more empathy for animals is one of the great positives that can result via being part of the community. It's also getting me more involved in being sustainable and environmental in my practices (... Outside of like viviarium building, boi expanding foam can't be that great). Me getting that from the community doesn't mean I think someone else needs to get that. Someone can just enjoy it. But some will get that, and that benefits the world likely. Does that offset the environment effect of like reptile supplies and transportation/etc.? 🤔🤷♂️🤷♂️ My main interaction to the community, outside a couple friends, is online content creators and Facebook (thou have left most groups due to what I perceive as toxicity and too much infighting there). So I am mostly seeing well kept pets kept in amazing bioactive enclosures (I also got into this via houseplants and terrariums). As I have a phobia of rodent corpses and my city disallows a lot of snakes, I have watched a bit of some snake content but don't have well informed perspective around all the issues with keeping of snakes -- (thou I do get TH-cam recced breeder content). I could see my thoughts being different with experiences talked about. I think some of most powerful thing people wanting change can do is lead by example, showing care for animals that is likely better for them and showing the effect of that I bet is changing others to do similar (I've seen various creators talk about their own care changing via viewing others). Both the humans and animals welfare are important -- the keepers welfare effects the animals (and visa versa). Being too harsh at someone for their keeping decisions (particularly where it's a controversial issue where there is disagreement around it), can have the opposite effect via someone shutting down /not listening and not changing. Thou also, when comes to content creators and sellers, effecting people's audience and customer base, that can promote them to change to keep those. Ethically so complicated 😅 thanks for interesting listen and discussion section.
Personally I think it's ethical as long as you follow the 5 provisions of animal welfare and it's unethical to use something like a minimalistic rack system for snakes and geckos and not using radiation and loose substrate for herps at some time.
The more I've kept BPs I think it depends on the animal and the rack. They do well, as an example, in a rack. Don't seem to care as long as their fed, safe etc. A little space to exercise helps tho.
I was raised up with a full complement of local non-venomous native species as pets, bc my father kept them for education. I learned to educate my friends and classmates and have continued the habit and the hobby for the last 55 years. I keep reptiles and tarantulas now with the stipulation that they are all captive bred. My reasons for keeping tarantulas is part pleasure and part participating in an action that can build a living Arc for species that are endangered/rapidly losing their native habitats. For example, I have several species of Poecilotheria and other threatened T's that I'm attempting breeding and selling to fellow hobbyists for the same purpose. I don't for a minute think I'll make a fortune doing it... I just want to help these beautiful spiders to still exist on this earth until people can become aware of what they're doing and correct their actions so these spiders can continue to live wild. I also donate to a charity to further that happening. Dillon, your podcasts are 100% the reason I'm doing that, btw. For my reptiles, it's again for my own pleasure of connecting with nature, and for the challenge of keeping them in such a way as to promote their natural behaviors. Also, having kept specific snakes for their full life spans, you get a feel for when your animal is getting pleasure from interacting with you in your own environment. I don't care even a little bit about folks who swear reptiles can't feel pleasure in interacting with humans... I've observed it over and over. Lori T is my absolute hero! My goals are to always work towards improving my animals' welfare; provide them situations that they can choose to engage in and enjoy; to promote education, appreciation and respect for animals in the wild and to encourage care for their habitats. I also try very hard to make my pleasures purposeful. I pick up trash when I herp in wild spaces. I help relocate snakes and educate about the benefits of having them around. I donate to our National Parks and wildlands. I always try to reduce my impact on nature.
I don't keep any reptiles... yet. I want to, but I'm still in the learning process and recently asked myself why I want to have a snake so much. I'm glad I found this video because it gave me new insights into the subject and I'm very happy you mentioned Lori, I love her work with snakes so much and want to understand my maybe future snake the way she understands hers.
Brian please don't worry about what others are thinking regarding your decision, your the only one that can make that decision, I know i pray I never have to make such a hard decision regarding chemo just stay strong and keep the faith.
Thank you for doing this video, you express all of this very well. For those of us trying so hard here on youtube, to do our channels and put out better information for how to care for our reptiles, there is always room for improvement when it comes to how we represent ourselves to our communities. I view my bearded dragons like breathing bonzai trees, a very involved and intricate hobby, or like an aquarium with a complex ecosystem. (monkey breeders don't sell their monkeys to just anyone, they have to be long term vetted by the rest of the monkey owner community!) I wish reptile owners were the same way. I'm sure there are some people who would see my videos and maybe not understand, if they aren't in the reptile owner community, but I do try and explain what I'm doing and why, if they care to watch. Thank you for being part of a positive force in representing all of us.
You would think with how common western fence lizards are that there would be a ton of info, but no. Professional range maps are out of date for subspecies and study for their diet and behaviors is sparse. Now I have a fish and game license and am currently in the works to legally captive breed Coast Range Fence Lizards. Your podcast is one of the reasons why I got so interested in the reptiles local to me, so I blame you.
Love the video and all the discussion in the comments! A couple things I've thought about that follow a similar argument to points in the video. 1) suppose you had an arbitrarily large space where you could perfectly replicate an animals natural environment. Would it be moral to keep it in that? Suppose then you could, without harming any other animals, remove threats and ensure perfect parameters for it. Would that be moral to keep it in? 2) The idea of going beyond just sufficient care/welfare is a really good one. 3) If people tell you its amoral to keep reptiles, ask them why. Do they hold the same opinions about dogs/cats? After many times fighting with people (especially bird people lol) on reddit and other forums I was told some things I wouldn't have thought about otherwise and it was useful. Other times I realized people who make such criticisms haven't really thought it through so there's not much point in getting defensive about it and could be an opportunity to explain your perspective.
Thanks for watch, KiKi! And thank you for adding to the discussion, these are great pointstopics to bring up with others! (for the record, I think the answer to #1 is, "yes'!)
Ethical reptile care stems from deep-rooted passion, in my opinion. That passion is not generated just by going into a pet store, spotting a reptile, thinking they're really cute or cool, then taking them home. That's more impulsive, in my opinion. Then come the time the owner loses interest, or doesn't have so much time to put into their hobby, then what happens? The animal(s) get rehomed, sold on, or (worst case) abandoned and the cycle repeats until they are acquired by owners who have a deep-rooted passion. The deep-rooted passion wouldn't allow such to happen in the first place. You either love it or you hate it, no in between. If you love it so much, like any hobby, it is therapeutic, an escape from normality and it can easily become addictive. The animals become part of the family/companionship. So, how to define deep-rooted passion? I would say that there has to be a family/genetic connection with animals - me, personally, as an example, my late Grandfather loved his animals and was very good with their care and husbandry. My mother, also, shares this genetic trait. And so do I. So there's 3 generations. However, neither of them kept reptiles, more birds and mammals (dogs, rabbits, budgies, canaries, chickens, a cow 🤣, a couple of sheep, pigs, geese,.. They were all part of the family!) I only very recently, like in the last week or so, discovered that my great uncle on my father's side, who is a bit of an eccentric like me (🤣), kept an iguana and various other animals. So genetics and genuine interest in the animal, is probably a good definition of deep-rooted passion in my opinion. Awesome podcast, it is good to broadcast this sort of material as it gets people's minds thinking!
this is a smart subject to discuss, now that things are on edge. new laws, new perspective and new rules we need to re-think how to bring our passion, ideas and view to the rest of the world. i was a little sceptic when you started the podcast but it makes sence now. thank you for bringing this up
This is a long comment. 1. How is it not ethical? I remember my wonder when my second grade teacher brought an aquarium to school which contained bull frog tadpoles. As a class we fed, watched with wonder as the little tads grew into frogs. This was wondrous. It sparked my interest in the world, life, growth, development and science. When I was about 11 my parents took us all to the zoo. I saw the living animals which I could never have seen otherwise. I felt bad about the small cages. My parents explained that because we could see them and learn to love them that the sacrifice was worth it. I went to college as a premed student. In biology lab we had to pith a frog for our lab. I did it because I wanted to get a good grade for my future. It was a horrible experience. We had a lab in medical school with a turtle whose plastron had been windowed so we could test the effect of substances on the heart. Perhaps this sacrifice was worth it. I became a caring, careful physician. At a physician there were labs with anesthetized dogs. Looking back, these were dogs who would have been put down because that is what happens to the excess in the pound. This lab taught us to do scary high risk procedures...so the humans would have a better doctor. Those animals all contributed to my learning. I honor them. 1. Most captive animals live longer in captivity than in the wild. 2. We learn to love and appreciate all living beings. 3. I used to think my dogs were mistreated when I kenneled them. Turns out this became their safe place. 4. Snakes are animals who hide most of the day in a hide, burrow, or such. They go out to eat or mate and risk their lives every time. 5. Industrialized care is not necessarily cruel. If enough animas are bred the price will drop and smuggling will become less lucrative. 6. Privileges come with responsibilities. Good care is done with love. 7. Breeders and hobbiests can save threatened species by captive breeding programs. 8. It is important not to anthropomorphicize our emotions to animals. 9. If you eat any meat of a creature, hush about the animal keeping. 10. Do not over breed. 11. If you are a vegan, how do you know for sure that plants do not feel pain when being pulled out of the ground? Or fruit trees when pruned?? 12. Show your care for animals by caring for abused children. Or adopt a pet from the pound. 13. Care as close to natural conditions is desirable. 14. Animals which are becoming extinct are being saved by captive breeding program. Example: the San Diego Zoo's program helping save the Prezwalski horses. 15. Animals give use joy and meaning and can be life saving. I can say that about my rescue dogs. I get it when posts degrade me for having a pit bull. They are loving beasts and one did save my life. Remember verbal attacks ar just print and just someone opinion. Do not take any of it personally. It is impossible to legislate these things without causing grief to ethical, compassionate breeder keepers.
You made some great points and all very true. Owning any exotic pet does aid in study and being able to see animals never seen before. I've never seen a rainbow boa until I followed Snake Discovery They're very passionate about conservancy and the animals they own. They now run a zoo and each enclosure is made specifically to that reptile's original habitat. They're also very well taken care of and healthy. They do rescues and surrenders as well as an adoption island. They breed responsibly they make sure all baby snakes born or hatched will be accounted for before breeding. They actually have long waiting lists. These people have to fill out forms to adopt with questions as to why they're adopting and so on. They are so passionate. Their snakes do act naturally.
My moral dilemma comes in the form of rack systems. I understand that breeders with hundreds of snakes can’t possibly have a large enclosure for each snake. I get it. However, keeping a snake in a TINY tub in a rack with nothing but paper and a water bowl is, to me, cruel. There’s no reason why they can’t put some kind of enrichment in the tub such as a couple rocks, a bit of substrate, a fake plant… SOMETHING. Bigger tubs for them to be able to stretch themselves out at least a little bit and get away from the heated side when they choose should also be a necessary thing. Just because you’re a big-time breeder doesn’t mean you should be excused from providing an enriching environment for your animals. It hurts my heart every time I see a tub opened in a video and there’s practically nothing in it but the snake and a water bowl. If you can afford to have hundreds of snakes, you should be able to provide enough space and enrichment for them that they can have a decent life.
We need a self regulating board, comprised of the leaders in the community. A standards committee that accredits sellers, and tests buyers. Set age limits on purchases, just like alcohol. Demand proof of enclosure size, and a competency test. So on and so forth. When we regulate ourselves, outsiders are less interested in doing it for us.
The very reason why I don't keep any animals as pets is because I can't bring myself to confining a creature that meant to be free. However, I do enjoy see peoples captive raised pets, it's an interesting hobby and subject.
for toad keepers : you should have a pond or pool for your toads. a waterdish is not enough, my toad would be very angry if i filled in its river section with dirt.
49:16 so when you ask “is it better for this animal to actually be in the wild?” That’s a great question. My response may be a counter argument to the ‘invisible ark’ premise but here it goes: That animal was never in the rainforest. Your boa was born from a litter where, presumably, 20/20 babies survived. Already that’s like 97% more successful than any naturally selected animal. And this has happened for generations in captivity. The picky neonates we assist feed to get started, the ones who miss their prey entirely or go after things like me as prey (or a primate in the jungle) are all animals that would never ever survive. My argument is that we have the closest thing to a wild animal in captivity, but it’s not a wild animal. These are facsimiles designed and bred for life in captivity. Does the pet know there’s much of a difference? Probably not. But is there a difference as far as the natural ecosystem is considered - definitely. If we’re doing our best to give them a life that allows for them to engage their instincts in the safety of human captivity, then I feel we’ve done right by those animals
last time i went fishing i found a snapping turtle that had fallen in a 5 ft deep stone hole. think of how hard wild life is. most places snapping turtles are illegal. and would be killed
I agree. Good points and making sure your goals are clear. Some people work on a breeding project to help with wildlife and some do it for personal reasons or for zoos. After fires or the construction of trails, there is destruction, and reptiles and amphibians are often the last to return to that landscape. If you ever find a lizard in the wild with a paint mark on its back, don’t pick it up. There have been many fires where I am from and the the reptiles have suffered. Horrible to se. I They are often at the bottom of the priority in fire recovery. I feel if you have zero experience you really should just donate. The fires were I live cause by humans. They were not all natural and I feel that what really suck even more so than keeping a reptile as a pet. There are positives to keeping animals for mental health and learning about animals. Reptiles are all the same. It brings people education and respect for these animals. My landlord was thrilled that I had them and loved my setups for them. She did not even bother making me pay a pet fee. Even some animal survival people said I am doing a fantastic job. Getting that outside validation has boosted my confidence and experience. Being involved in the community really can help in some situations. If the laws are clear, where you live is a privilege. My lizard is a rescue (I bought him from a boy who had no idea what he was doing. He was overwhelmed and could not feed it). My lizard used to escape quite a bit because his old owner let it free in his house with dogs and toddlers in the tiny house. One time I found him in his puddle of pee. He was so scared. Another time I saw him behind my stove. He stopped exploring after that when he realized there was no food and it was much too cold. Some reptiles have been a part of our human lives for a while now. I was catching and obscuring reptiles and other animals in the wild at the age of 4. I would be chilling in a shrub, watching lizards for hours in 90 heat. Never kept them in cages until more recently. I bought and rescued a few last years and still have them.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast think about it Ridgefield you were a kid ? Only hint I’m giving my guy but keep up the good work it’s been a long time since I see you I’m happy to see your still out there with animals .
It's a good thing, not just for reptiles but Invertebrates also. Some species have been found to help the medical field, and some have become very close to extinction and someday will only be kept. The same holds true for zoos that are properly kept. This is a subject that pops up a lot in the Tarantula field also but they live a way more stressful and dangerous life in the wild. I keep many exotic species and they all enhance life, and we enhance theirs also. It functions like anything else there are good and bad keepers, but you cant judge it off that. That's all of life and how it works with guns, hunting, business with anything in life actually we don't stop doing and living it because some people make us look bad.
We as a community need to come up with a way to empower our voice for our states and make a point against the laws they out agaisnt us. If we believe we should own certain animals we should be allowed to own them with proof we can care for them. We need to get people to respect our educational aspect on keeping animals.
Needed conservation and topic(s). Nice to have an intelligent, intellectual and progressive space in the reptile vlog versus the bombastic and attention seeking vlogs... nice to have the balance.
I'm a I see it I want it, one of the things I do to get the pet high,is I buy the book. I'll start with a basic care book, then I'll get a more in depth book. I'm usually done by the first basic care book, I still get the more in depth book because it's always interesting and a lot of the time I find the simpler things,i.e. some of the plants or set up work can be modified for something I already have. I have found some great equipment in reptile husbandry that has actually helped with cleaning carpets..lol. I have a couple dwarf frogs that live with my betta, but I have sooooo many books on axylotles, spiders, pond creatures,, lizards,snakes. Ect. Children can be involved my kids wrote to local politicians when they were young about various conservation laws. They thought they were too young to influence politicians but that is not true, in 5 years a 13 yr.old will be able to vote and those politicians don't want to be local forever. I loved this conversation, I would ask that you do edit it, clarify, and post a shorter version on Facebook. !😊
Thank you for watching episode, kitty! I agree, the books are a great outlet for wanting to purchase some thing. I will work on a shorter version of this 😊
If one is going to keep an animal, any animal, one should do their best to provide the best care possible. Enrichment, healthy diet, healthy socialization and interaction, whatever that level might be for that species and individual. I do hesitate at the breeding of certain genetics for aesthetic purposes, we know how wrong that go can (look at pugs).
Im right there with you i dont keep currently, but am debating getting back into it. Ive kept a myriad of herps which has allowed me to focus in on what i really like. Keeping Anoles that are now living outside my house since i live in NC now, would have been my choice before. Now that i see how wide and far they range in my yard i wonder if i can provide the same thing for them in captivity. A 12 foot x 18 inches x 8 foot tall would be used by them completely and thats what i would want to see if i get back into keeping.
I have a large common boa c. constrictor but she is my only reptile but I do have fish, tarantulas, scorpions and a ton of cats and potted plants😻🐍🦂🪴🕷️
This is awesome, and I wish every pet owner would watch this. I'm in the same headspace so much of the time. I like your points, though, and think I will take my personal contributions to the next level by directly supporting conservation efforts. Have you read the book Wild Souls by Emma Marris? It has more to do with wild animals as opposed to captive, but think you'd find it interesting. Here's a snippet about it: Protecting wild animals and preserving the environment are two ideals so seemingly compatible as to be almost inseparable. But in fact, between animal welfare and conservation science there exists a space of underexamined and unresolved tension: wildness itself. When is it right to capture or feed wild animals for the good of their species? How do we balance the rights of introduced species with those already established within an ecosystem? Can hunting be ecological? Are any animals truly wild on a planet that humans have so thoroughly changed? No clear guidelines yet exist to help us resolve such questions.
I agree with much of what you say. I no longer breed my animals (even though I could sell the offspring easily enough) for the reasons you explain. Where I think you can go in other directions is with respect to charity, conservation and introduction to nature. Are there ways to live our lives so that charity is not necessary? How do our life choices impact the environments we are attempting to 'conserve'? Where do the rare earth elements for our UVB's come from? One of our cultural challenges is moving past the assumption that we are separate from nature. The relations we have with our animals can help some of realise that we are kin, and that is a good thing. Still you cannot not be in nature (you ARE nature), and there are opportunities to connect with other species everywhere. Have a listen to this Michel Grobbe interview th-cam.com/video/0ZXg3pFLVTc/w-d-xo.html Anyway, thanks for encouraging thought and promoting better care?
I’m only 10 mins in but very interesting it’s come up as the last 2 podcast I’ve recorded seem to be on the same page! Or topic or theme as haven’t seen your views yet! It’s Also something my brain is struggling with atm Prob why I’m projecting in my podcast 😂 But either way thank you for sharing this important topic! And can’t wait to hear what you have to say on it!
Also consider the fact until 1994 crested geckos and gargoyle geckos were considered to be extinct. Now there are literally millions due to the pet trade and people breeding them. I see that as preservation of a species
I think reptile owners who are good keepers and keep good husbandry and care for their reptiles that it's not anyone's business what I do with my pets. I have a dog and other mammals and reptiles and I keep every one of my pets in great condition and if they have any options about my animals if it's not positive it's nothing that I want to hear. If I was not doing the right thing and my animals were in any condition that were on the verge of being neglected or something then sure someone should be able to say and do something about it. I love the education part of keeping reptiles
I'm watching this for the second time and just realized your boa is telescoping and staring up at the light. My BCI does the same thing and I was wondering why they do this and if it's safe? I use Arcadia Shade Dweller Pro low UVB lights for my snakes. Thanks!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Thanks! And thanks for the great content. I'm one of those people whose reptiles give me a reason to keep going. You and Liam both have made me a much better keeper.
In my experience herp keepers are the least of all groups of pet owners and breeders that need to work on this. Dog and cat farming are rife, fish are bred and gifted to shops because people can't care for them once they are produced. Cats and dogs are just dumped on a regular basis. No one asks why these should be kept. My view on keeping is the same approach I took with my cat and dog; will I commit to keeping them correctly. What can I do to give them the best? I have a corn snake that is 13 years old (average age is just 5-8 years old), tame as they come, healthy and well cared for. My asian water dragon has a 6ft tall bioactive viv complete with sump filtered pond. I don't feel the need to explain why I own them anymore than my dog and cat. The idea that because they exist in the wild is no different from feral cats, dogs and wild fish.
I love the part about being in tough with nature. People on Reddit world bash me about having a too tall enclosure for a ball Python and I would be so confused because… nature is huge? Hides play the role of a safe place. I could not agree with you more in this video.
I respect your opinion on that topic... But speaking for myself, through my animals i got a reason to donate money to preserve theyr natural counterparts theyr natural habitat... I like were your going with that i sometimes struggle myself to explain the why, to ppl outside of the hobby. Beside donating hundreds of € to those conservation groups...
I have a bigger issue with birds. As long as an enclosure is big enough and the mental stimuli is there I have no issue. The recommended enclosure sizes is though ridiculous in general. Generally I mean they must be tripled, altleast for snakes and big lizards/monitors. I did an experiment a few days ago and im now debating to use a small room as an enclosure for 1 snake. The room is 4x3 meters in size and 2.20 meters high. The snake is climby semi arboreal.
there is a diffrence between keeping and the hoarding of reptiles and what about the snobbery of the 'Rare" when really most of the ones kept are a lesser than of the original, morphs het this t neg that ya know the whole strawberry snow icecream het for strawberry snow blizard yougert, see i see no point other than some bragging rights
I have a rescue snake and personally feel guilty. She's in a large enclosure and she's having an even bigger one custom built. However I'm conscious that I'm keeping a wild animal still in a box. With limited choices and against her will. I dont believe any animals would choose to live in a box. I think we do certainly need to change our language when describing 'exotic pets'. They aren't pets they ARE wild animals and this must not get lost as this is integral to who these animals actually are and if in human care this should be reflected. Using the term pet is so problematic, they aren't pets and vets are often very poorly placed to help when they are sick and the enclosures sold are so incredibly small that most mop buy for most species, same for other wild animals commonly kept like fish, birds and rodents. I think its heart breaking.
Peta doesn't want any animals to be kept either. Livestock, pets, or otherwise, but we can kill them to deforest an area for new homes or business. We will always see the worst examples of pet keepers/ animal a users that will never change and it will always over shadow the really good keepers that care, love their animals while progressing the hobby. Privilege is the best way to put it. I've grown compassion from keeping, makes me do more.
My view on the ethics of reptile keeping is that ultimately, it's just as ethical as keeping any other animal. If someone takes such a hardline stance on the ethics of keeping reptiles that they view reptile keeping as unethical, it also means that keeping any animal is unethical by their standards. The argument of the lack of space (keeping the reptile in a box) and the lack of freedom and the potential for reptile abuse also applies to dogs, cats, hamsters, every single animal kept by humans. In short, reptile keeping should have the same standards as other animals being kept. They should be given as much space as possible, they should be fed nutritious food on a schedule that keeps them healthy, signs of illness or injury should prompt a vet visit, and mental stimulation should be provided. If these are not being met, it's animal abuse and unethical. If the standards are being met, then keeping the animal is ethical, reptile or not.
If someone has had reptiles for many years, and reptile keeping becomes illegal in the state where he lives, could he replace those reptiles with some other kind of animals (say: hamsters, or fancy pigeons) and become equally happy, or is he going to be stuck in a longing to have reptiles forever? This is becoming an increasingly important question because in many parts of the world politicians think about restricting the keeping of exotic animals. I know my personal answer to this, but would really like to know how others think about "forced switching to another animal group"?
This is a very interesting question, and I think one that will become more and more relevant as time goes on. Personally, I think I could probably get away with keeping fish and/or inverts and still enjoy the practice, however, I don’t think I would get the same enjoyment out of keeping mammals
My family breeds ball pythons and keep them in rack systems. I've told them how it can be bad for them but because other breeders told them they like being in a tub (on news paper with nothing but a hide and a waterbowl) they won't listen to me. I'm still under 18 and can't do much myself. If someone has advice, please share. I want to do everything I can to give them the best care possible.
That’s a tough situation! The only thing I can think of is leading by example, if there’s any way you can include enrichment in some of the tubs, I think they’ll be a great start! Maybe if your family sees the snakes interacting with enrichment, open their minds to a different way of thinking
Animals can be ethically kept and the educational aspect of captive animals should not be ignored, but I strongly agree in the introduction of rules, laws, permits and registration for ALL captively kept animals. The fact of the matter is, the majority of animals are not kept in a way that I would consider to be truly ethical. The reptile hobby alone is an unregulated mess where failure to care for an animal or even mass hoarding of hundreds of illegal animals only ever results in the animals suffering or being euthanized, while the keeper gets off scott free or with a slap on the wrist. Previously I have purchased animals from stores/ breeders. Right now, I have 2 reptiles, 2 birds and a dog. All are re-homed/ rescue situations and I cant bring myself to ever consider purchasing a new animal from a breeder or pet store ever again. There are so many poorly kept animals in captivity and sitting in shelters right now and that unfortunately goes completely against the ethical side of pet keeping that so many people fight for. Minimum standards (enclosure size, kibble diets etc) for most pets are pathetic. And even those minimum standards are usually just seen as the normal way to do things by private keepers with the breeding facilities getting a pass on below minimum standards. I've got bp in a 72Lx24Wx36H and a leopard gecko in a 48x18x18. These are both above the minimum recommendation even amongst advanced keeping standards but it still doesnt so these animals justice to what they should have for space when compared to the wild. It's a huge improvement from the Leo's former 10 gallon home with his previous owner and the formerly obese python's 36x18 floor space he had at the rescue but I still look at them and think about how much different their lives would be if they remained wild. I'd discuss my thoughts on keeping parrots in captivity but this comment is already long enough. Tldr; The entire pet hobby needs more regulations, laws and punishments for breaking said laws. For ethical reasons, I will personally not be purchasing a new animal from a breeder or store every again and will stick to rescues/re-homes.
*What are your thoughts? Is reptile keeping ethical? Add to the conversation below* 👇
Feel the same way. Just built up way to fast and now its taking years to downsize without tossing animals away. definitely don't want to breed as much as I could. Great episode!
@@SnakeCakeExotics Thank you!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Thank you for being one of the most enjoyable channels out there, lol I have such a hard time paying attention to anything but I find almost all your content fascinating! Everyone with a reptile should see your stuff! I've tested so many things and even with the right set ups most ppl don't have heated rooms so ambient temps are off and messes with proper development. Almost every issue out there starts with having one perimeter off.
@@SnakeCakeExotics thanks, Matthew! Appreciate the kind words
There definitely needs to be balance. From a legal standpoint a blacklist system on what is legal to own (as opposed to a whitelist) is better in my opinion. As some creatures cannot be kept in a house in someone's hobby time and for conservation keeping them in nature is simply the only chance the animal has - like marine iguanas - as an example.
Personally, addiction or an addictive like rush of something new is to be avoided. I've never had any sense of addiction or even want to drink alcohol or other common vices. That's what I think of for when it looks people go from one reptile to 5 years later they have 100 animals. It's not Herp culture, it's a human being's flaws in rushing to go big and fast into something new. This hobby does involve animal lives which is the important thing to remember. I'm an idiot so someone else could explain it better...just two cents here
Thank you for pointing out the mental benefits of reptile keeping. I have PTSD and nothing helped during my episodes. A friend happened to introduced me to his snake and when I first handled it I felt such a peace. So I got one for myself. I believe we were meant to live alongside animals and that we can form connections with them. This is extended to all animals not just the socially accepted pets.
Same here my friend. My snakes really help me. They are beautiful and wonderful animals.🪖🦅🇺🇸
It is such an important factor to consider, something that many “non-keepers“ likely do not think about! Happy to hear snakes have helped both of you!
I was about to comment the same, diagnosed with complex ptsd and after the loss of my Dad in 2018 I got my first reptile and I’ve seen a massive improvement in my symptoms 🫶
just wanted to say, i suffer from a lot of anxiety (in terms of my own expectations and success). the first day i held my corn snake, it was the first time in a very long time that i wasn’t anxious about school, future expectations, etc. and she has continued to bring me peace over the entire year i’ve had her❤️ (so much so that i got another snake and he’s taught me what understanding truly means.)
Same
I've noticed and have had several discussions about the entire reptile keeping culture and how it's changed because of people like you on TH-cam who are not just learning as you go, but sharing what you learn. We have the knowledge we have today because of you and others like you. Care for reptiles has improved immensely over the last decade, the importance of heating and moisture and how to keep live plants are all common knowledge now. Entire industries of care products have grown from these channels. At least in level of care we on the right track.
Thank you very much for the kind words! And yes, I think we are definitely on the right track
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast I have had pets since childhood,mostly small mammals and birds. The last pets I had were house rabbits who free ranged in my home,using a litter box,etc.
I think it is ethical to keep reptiles,however the breeding of reptiles in glorified shoe boxes really bothers me....A lot.
I'm getting my first gecko this month,a gargoyle gecko from a breeder.
I have no desire to collect animals and have only kept small groups of social animals.
Anyway,the dopamine hit you spoke of does apply to animal hoarders and I do feel that there is a goodly number of reptile keepers who have a hording problem.
Anyway,this has to be the very best program I feel you have ever done and it really tugged at my heart strings.
I would enjoy you doing a program on rewilding cause I got to participate in a small still ongoing project in NC...Also,going a step further and that is reptile breeders raising native animals to be gradually returned to the wild (we did this in wildlife rehab.)
It was so satisfieing returning a creature to it's native habitat.
Anyway,thank you for a truly outstanding podcast.
@@dacisky Thank you so much for the kind words! I think an episode on re-wilding is a fanasttic idea!
One of my most rewarding experiences is building that trust and the time that it takes it becomes such a great pleasure to have the interaction where you know they do trust you.
So true, Christina!
How Reptile keepers can paint the following image for non keepers:
Continuously illustrate to non reptile folk that the hobby gives people a greater respect for nature and wildlife.
Aids in conservation and preservation.
Allows people to participate in citizen science and add to literature.
Grants keepers a sense of responsibility and purpose and belonging.
OR allow the non keepers to draw their own conclusions as to why someone would want to own many snakes, by ignoring them entirely.
Now which do you think is more likely to be the catalyst for government legislation?
21:40 is the end of the quote for reference.
This was a very eloquent and well articulated point here Dillon. I think this should defo be a snippet to take out for a short or something that can be easily shared.
Thanks, Liam! Glad you liked that part!
I've been keeping reptiles for well over 30 yrs on and off. Through those years I've burned out a few times because I just couldn't have 1 or 2. I had to collect and ad on more and more till it became a job I didn't want to keep doing. No longer enjoyed it at all. I got my dream snake 4 yrs ago, then decided I needed to breed him. I started down that road of collecting more and more again. I finally woke up and stopped myself. I have 4 snakes now and its quite manageable and I'm enjoying it emenssly. I'm staying here with just these so these animals have good long healthy lives. As for the ethics of keeping, there is a conservation reason to keep them as many will lose their homes in the wild as long as humans keep reproducing and taking the wild lands. We need to save what we can. These are living intelligent beings that deserve to be saved and kept as best we can gor the future. I appreciate what you are doing my friend. Keep pushing the hobby forward.
Thank you for watching as always! :)
One of the best things I always keep in mind is Tom Crutchfield said keep less with more enrichment than a bunch without it and that has stuck with me. I think a lot of us that have been in the hobby a couple of decades have really come to that general feeling in recent years especially.
I do think it is ethical to keep animals. The importance is the education and conservation that we can learn from keeping amazing creatures. So many discussions can be had, but I'm not savy at leaving comments. Love your channel and the network. Thank you so much!
Completely agree, thanks for your supper, Mikey!
I love the message behind this video. I started out like many new reptile keepers. I got my first reptile and within a few months I had 10+ reptiles. After about 1 year I realized I was riding that Hedonic treadmill (although I didn’t know that term haha). I stumbled across your channel, I think for the video where you built the glass enclosure. And what is funny is I came across your channel for a practical reason (learning to build a fancy box aka enclosure haha) and I found myself deep diving into your channel which caused me to have a huge existential crisis about herpetoculture and keeping in general. This resulted in me rethinking everything about what I keep and how I keep. My entire point of view changed, in part, thanks to your podcast. Now there were a lot of things that happened simultaneously that contributed to my shift in the way I view herpetoculture, but your podcast gave me the foundation and I appreciate it so much. I hope that other keepers can stumble across this video and have the revelations I did. I hope that people new to herpetoculture and keeping reptiles can stumble across this video and realize early on not to make the same mistakes many new keepers do.
Sorry about the long comment haha to sum it up, please publish.
I appreciate the long comment! I love hearing other peoples perspective/point of use. 😁. Thank you for all your support!
Education is key. Passion is key. Regulation is sometimes needed. Without those you will always have that question. Is it ethical? Because you will always have those few people who will somehow neglect their animal for whatever reason. Like you said being able to keep these animals is a privilege.
Exactly! Thank you very much for watching episode 👍🏼
Great episode. I completely agree that we need to advance our care, learn all we can about the species we keep, avoid getting in over our heads, donate if possible to keep our wildlife safe and thriving. However I don't only see our responsibility ending there, one of the most important thing we need to do is bring the information we learn to the keepers who aren't aware of podcasts like these or Facebook groups that actually want to progress the hobby. I know first hand the resistance and negativity that comes your way, no matter how politely you try to impart information on someone who "knows better". If only a small group of our hobby is doing what has been laid out here and I suggest if you watched the video you likely already are, then when the masses look to see what is going on in our hobby they will be left seeing some very sad examples of reptiles in captivity. I do my best by my pets, I try to post examples of what can be achieved and I will most importantly continue to try and get other keepers to see that there are better ways, so they too can advance the hobby. Keep pushing our hobby forward, I recommend this podcast and the others under the umbrella often. Sorry for the long rant!
Thanks for watching, Rick! And an excellent rant, very well said 😁
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast thank you 😊
After many years of keeping reptiles and arthropods, I finally find great content that explores one of the most important questions of the hobby. Just never met anyone who has even though of it. It’s just the keepers never really adressing it, and the non-keepers going ballistic when they see a gecko in a small tupperware at an expo.
I actually sold all of my wild-caught geckos recently, just because thinking of them being thousands of miles away from where they are supposed to be it’s kind of cruel. And sometimes I regret having done so, because they were doing great actually.
Somehow this mindset doesn’t really exist when it comes to captive-bred specimens. Mainly because they were not taken from their habitat, even though their parents probably were.
For female tarantulas it’s generally easy to explain they tend to live for over a decade in the same burrow, naturally. So, I guess it makes it easier to see them through a glass box.
For reptiles it’s more of a “their habitats are being destroyed by the minute” thing. Which is true, of course, but it’s kind of a camouflage we, keepers, use when we are confronted with the whole freedoom question.
In my opinion, there are keepers who are really not keeping for the sake of the animals, but for an anedoctal idea of income, or simply because they can.
But, the majority, I believe cares for the animals and try to give them their best life, with the possible resources.
Even for the WC animals, it’s not like all of us can get into a flight and put them back in their enviornment. They deserve to have the best life, even given the circumstances.
Glad you found the channel! Hopefully you have a chance to explore the other episodes and shows as well (www.animalsathomenetwork.com) Thank you for adding you thoughts as well!
I empathize with you Dillon. I appreciate the compliment too, thank you. If you ask the question was it ethical for humans to start keeping reptiles in captivity, I have to be honest and say in most cases (I can think of exceptions) no. I cannot justify how it is ethical to take away someone's freedom. They value their freedom so much and the more I keep snakes and the more freedom I allow them, the more evident it is that they do not want to be confined. Not that they don't appreciate and spend time in their enclosures but they want the doors open to come and go as they please. If you're asking is it ethical to keep snakes in captivity that are already in captivity, the only answer is yes. I think it would be highly unethical to turn them all loose and expect them to fend for themselves and I think the ethical thing to do is to give the animals under captive management the best lives we are able and continually strive to progress their well-being. The question is should be continue to produce or add snakes to captivity in the future? The one's here now we have an obligation to care for and care for well. Should we add more? I just don't know. Some days I think, no, we should care for the ones we have until they are all gone and then that's it. Other days, I think maybe its ok under certain conditions. When you put the animals first, I mean truly think of them above all else it is difficult to justify taking away their freedom and producing animals destined to be born into captivity doesn't seem right. I go back and forth but at night when my snakes are active and so many want out of their enclosures it is hard to think it is ok to force them to live in boxes. From the animal's point of view the only way that I think we can truly justify it is to give the animals the choice to live in our homes or not, I mean all those Carpet Pythons that people find in their homes in Australia and call snake catchers to remove; I would just be like "cool, there's a Carpet Python living in my house" and welcome them to stay! I have two Bredli that are seldom confined at all anymore.
Keep up the great work and sharing the very important message of progressing care,
Lori
Thank you for watching, Lori! I think we are very much on the same page. It’s hard to justify the initial removal from the wild. Definitely difficult questions to answer! It does give me a lot of anxiety when I see my snakes wanting out as well 🤷🏼♂️. Thanks again! 😊
In the 70’s and 80’s, I was considered a weirdo for keeping reptiles.
It was incredibly hard to give them optimal conditions but I did my best including ordering books in German that I would then get a friend to translate page by page.
I did meet collectors who specialized in a species and who knew more about said species than any zoo and often gave advice to them concerning breeding.
Nowadays, it is not considered abnormal to be interested in reptiles and the information, equipment and food available is brilliant.
My complaint though is that we now realize how intelligent they can be and I hate seeing them in tubs or bare enclosures.
I don’t care what breeders tell us, I have seen most species in both and there is no comparaison in their behaviour.
Yep, completely agree! They are intelligent beings, and deserve to be kept properly
This was a very good listen! I got into the ethics of how we treat livestock while I was in college and it changed my world. There's a lot of crossover with herpeticulture as well. There's a responsibility that comes with taking an animal out of nature/the wild and putting it into captivity. Our animals deserve the best we can give them.
Absolutely!
Great episode! I appreciated hearing the different stages that you went through in reptile keeping. I have gone through those same stages and I would like to believe that many reptile keepers have also done the same. Reptiles are the same as any other pet in their ability to provide mental benefits to keepers. Being able to care for my reptiles after I come home from work is very beneficial to me. It is almost meditative and it is certainly enjoyable! Thank you again for giving reptile and nonreptile keepers topics to consider about reptile keeping and the best ways to do so.
Thanks for watching the episode, Julie!
Thank you for all your support! One day you must come down to the Amazon with me. We will go looking for snakes together on the lands in ARC’s care!
Back then neither of us had a TH-cam channel! I was alerted to today’s podcast because one of your supporters made a donation to ARC! 😊
Great episode! Lots to unpack here and great to get a summary and expansion on your philosophy!
Thank you! :)
Great video. For a while I've found myself stuck between both sides of the hobby. I enjoyed my breeding experiences and hope to breed again in the future (where I feel it is ethically/morally OK to do so). I lost the enjoyment out of "keeping" the snakes with the breeder mentality. I am now a lot happier with less animals and giving what I have more. That being said I am still miles away from where I want to be in terms of care, but I know I will get there. Evolving as a "keeper" is a beautiful thing and you're right, the animals reward us for making positive husbandry changes. Great channel, really enjoyed the new boa enclosure.
Thank you, Dean! Glad you enjoyed the video, and thanks for sharing a bit about your own keeping.
Super on-point discussion. Thank you for not being afraid of bringing this up! I personally can't wait until I can have several pets one day because I do think it is a special relationship between humans and animals, and it can be super rewarding to provide them with the utmost care. I think the animal enjoys it as well! However, the breeding culture definitely puts me off sometimes. I don't have plans to breed any animals, just want a few to love and cherish
Thank you very much for watching episode, Rachel. Glad to hear you enjoyed it!
I went for many years without keeping them--just thought it was cool enough to see them around outside. But then I had a son, and I wanted him to be exposed to them. To understand them. And that works best for kids sometimes when they're able to keep one. They develop a different kind of relationship. A closeness.
I can’t wait to introduce my son to my animals! (he’s only 10 months right now)
I generally agree with the points you make! Although my views/justifications are more simplistic. My opinion is that keeping animals can be ethical IF all of their welfare requirements are met. This is why I have such a big problem with the reptile hobby, because the wellbeing of the animals seems to be a mere afterthought. I find many common practices to be non-ethical and absolutely deserving of outside criticism (especially in the snake hobby, which I am most familiar with).
It is for this reason that I try to support the industry (in its current form) as little as possible. I would never buy a snake from a breeder keeping their animals in the standard rack set ups (which is the vast majority of breeders). I would never buy a ball python regardless of circumstances as the market is absolutely flooded and reptile rescues are full of unwanted pythons. I adopted both of my snakes and I plan to adopt any future ones.
Personally, I think there should be more regulation in the hobby, especially when it comes to large and venomous species. There should also be regulations for minimum spatial requirements and enrichment levels in enclosures, especially for commercial breeders. Would that make snakes more expensive and less accessible? Possibly. So what? Keeping an animal is a privilege not a right. People generally seem to understand that most practices producing many animals for cheap, such as factory farming and puppy mills, are unethical - but as soon as reptiles are being kept that way it’s totally fine. As long as those standards are widely accepted in the hobby (which includes more “reasonable” keepers turning a blind eye and failing to call out the irresponsible actors), it is - quite frankly - not worthy of respect.
Thanks for watching, Cathy! I appreciate you adding your thoughts as well. Your framework is a good, simple one, that I think anyone could easily implement! Thank you for laying it out :)
Exactly. I just watched a video where someone went over their most and least expensive snakes. They had multiple racks with little trays where they kept their snakes. They were given the same level of consideration that a guy would give their loose nuts and bolts.
Love this episode. Thank you for sharing. This will ripple out, as has so much you have done for the reptile advancement of ethical care.
Thank you, Pam! :)
Thank you for posting this. It's an important discussion. It's indeed a privilege not a right. I moved to bioactive enclosures for all of my reptiles recently and will never go back to basic terrariums. My snakes are visibly less stressed therfore happier
Thank you very much for watching, I’m glad to hear you enjoyed it!
A lot of this reminds me of the invert community. I am one of those that found something from keeping, it's helped me a lot in life already and I haven't been at it for long. Thanks for talking about this topic.
Thanks for watching, Drew!
Hi Dillon! Jana here! I tried to post a comment but I don’t think it went through so I will try again! I am in the Amazon and the internet is not great! I remember our conversation and how you opened my eyes!
Hi Jana :) I was so happy to see that you were making your way back out to the land to take it back. GOOD LUCK! So glad that one of the viewers made a donation, that is awesome. Some day I will come with you for sure. Until then, have an amazing trip (I know you will) and maybe when you are back in Canada we should consider recording another episode of the podcast! It's been a long time!
That would be fun!
i just watched this, i agree this was great to listen too!! i have depression and severe social anxiety and me getting my three snakes has made me so much happier and i feel needed to stay alive for my snakes. they’ve also helped me socialize and interact more with people. i can be having a bad anxiety attack and just taking my snakes out helps me so so much. i hate that a lot of people keep reptiles because it’s “cool” to keep them. i’ve seen people get snakes and then get rid of them a few years later because they didn’t realize how big they would get. i wish people did more research before getting reptiles to see if they are actually responsible enough to take care of them and it’s something they want to keep for 20-35 years or more.
Very well said! I’m happy to hear that your snakes are helping you with your own personal well-being 😊
True! For many species, captivity may be their only chance of existence in the near future. The general public cares little about wild reptiles as evident by the rampant destruction of habitat in so many places. We who value these animals for simply being what they are - we have to be the ones to change the perception of the public towards reptile keepers. And that change is happening thanks to many of you who constantly produce content supporting and encouraging ethical keeping.
Thanks for watching!
Really well done, and I am not a reptile keeper but I do have an interest in snakes and geckos and blue-tongued friends. I think you are a well thought-out podcast maker and that is something I very much appreciate. Anyone can talk into a mic and publish it but you sir have made a podcast worth listening to. I am looking forward to future episodes!
Thank you so so much for the kind words, much appreciated!
I also as a comment reflected below have complex ptsd, personally from some next level cruel human perpetrated trauma against me without getting into it, and so showing animals empathy and receiving that innocent bond from them is so healing. I believe it’s ethical when you of are well informed and take great care, just like you. In my case my current reptile was a newborn baby I rescued that wouldn’t have survived without being in captivity, and we have truly saved eachother and I spend every single day doing even more research no matter how much I know into reptiles and animals and my species in particular to ensure my care is ever evolving. I believe that empathy and selflessness when loving your animal leads to doing your best and usually a very well cared for animal, and in turn that animal makes you happy and fulfilled to if you are a true ethical animal lover.
I’m sorry to hear you had to go through that but I’m glad to hear you have found peace in keeping a reptile 😊
I must say to you “THANK YOU” very, very much for your “Insights” and your experiences having relationships with REPTILES !!!.
Thank you very much for watching the video!
I'm so glad I came across this podcast and especially this episode. This has given me so much to think about and a reminder to keep my focus on bettering the lives of the animals that I have.
This was a very well thought out, informative, organized and (most of all) important presentation. Thank you for taking the time to put this together and bring it to the public. I will be sharing this whenever I come across a situation where I think it will be most helpful. 🤗💞
Thank you so much for watching, Tanya. I’m glad to hear you enjoyed it. Thank you in advance for sharing it 😊
Ive had to ask myself this same question and have given it quite a bit of thought. Many of which run along the same lines as some of your reasonings. What is my purpose for having this drive to keep these animals, i find so fascinating, in a captive setting. My answer for myself wasn't a simple or short one, but dug at me to be found. My finding was if it bothers you that something even might bother your captive animals, so feel compelled to provide them with anything that comes to mind that at least may be beneficial and so appreciated. This mindset is what drove me to ask if my keeping is ethical. If you aren't constantly making improvements while learning more about the animals you are keeping to make said improvements, you may not be keeping these animals so ethically. This answer has helped me too see who simply has a reptile hobby, and who has a reptile passion. I could go on but this video hit home for me, as ive asked many of these same questions mentioned in your video, in a greater effort to "justify" my own keeping. I am still in the process of building a "large" educational facility on the entire main floor of my home. All setup with some interesting and ingenuitive methods of maintaining the animals health and enclosures it holds. From custom built, automated self maintaining and fully effective, Filtration systems. This includes a perpetual water exchanging system that is constantly swapping water from the animals enclosures with temperature regulated fresh filtered water, setup to reach each "finished up and running" and "future works in progress enclosures" for growing animals under my care now. With plans to eventually begin tours to educate younger grades of students initially, and as these youths grow and either take to the fascination or pass it on have opportunities for these interested passionate children to more regularly come by and learn to not simply keep and grow animals in captivity, but keep and grow with them. With a healthy amount of tools to getting them well on their way, for future generations of keepers to always be better than the last... Thanks if you had the interest to read this far. I could go on but it wouldnt find an end so this is where i stop... :)
Thank you very much for watching, Derek! I appreciate you sharing you thoyghts as well, sounds like you are on the right path :)
Thanks man 🙏 I see you are on a good path as well, likely regarding more than only asking these difficult questions to better make improvements, but turning the thought into a message for other keepers too ask themselves as well... 🐍 🐊 🐸 🐢 🕷️ 🦂 🐟...
I completely agree with the statement about someone else who doesn’t want you to keep reptiles and you go on and do it anyway because YOU wanted to do it. You’ve betrayed their trust. They trusted you to respect their wishes and you let them down by going against their wishes. I’ll use this as an example: I live in a place where they do say no pets. If I decided I wanted an axolotl and started researching and bought all the stuff, set it up and then went out and bought it and brought it home, someone would see me bring it in and I would be reported to our board of directors. In the place where I live, there is almost always someone sitting in the family room. It would not go unnoticed. We also have people at my place who are early risers and do not like loud noises at night (like someone’s bird screaming in the middle of the night is a good example). You have to be considerate if you’re married, you live in a transitional group home like I do, you’re a parent, etc. I rely on this group home to drive me to the grocery store and to activities on the monthly calendar. I also agree you cannot say “I’ll do what I want.” You have to respect other people’s wishes.
Exactly!
This is very well thought out and touches on different aspects of keeping. Glad to have watched this.
Thank you very much. I appreciate the positive feedback!
I have PTSD and extremely high anxiety and I agree with keeping reptiles! Because of how I adopted my two anole lizards! I fell in love with them and I feel at peace watching them in their enclosure! I couldn't be happier with them!
That is great to hear :)
Yes it is I just don't know what I'd do without them now
This has inspired me. We plan to talk about it on my weekly Facebook/TH-cam. Love to hear more especially the list of 5 things we provide for captive they don't get in the wild. been looking through back episodes but could not find the list
Thank you for watching! Are you referring to the 5 freedoms of animal welfare? I have a link to a paper discussing them in the description. I also when through them on this episode: th-cam.com/video/F1QXoSZa5Aw/w-d-xo.html
I believe I have just as much a right to reptiles as I do a dog or cat. Yet as a keeper I believe it is our responsibility to create the best life for our animals. They didn't choose to be with us we chose them so we should give them the best we can personally offer. Even if you can't have the greatest enclosures in the world you should always be evolving your husbandry for the better and your skills and knowledge will grow as you do.
Precisely! Thank you for watching
thank you SO much for this episode.
I'm very happy that I found the side of TH-cam that acknowledges the problems in the community while simultaneously uplifting and not coming down on people who aren't familiar with the moral side of reptile keeping in the hobby. I've always struggled with the morality of keeping pets in general and will likely continue to do so. I do keep multiple frogs, a crestie and two cats. The exotic pets have bioactive setups and lots of space. Still, the question of "what gives me the right to keep them from the wild" plagues me some nights.
I have c-ptsd and my pets help me immensely with regaining my sense of selfsufficiency. still, isn't it egocentric to "use" them for that purpose?
Just the croaking sound of my frogs makes me happy. I've been to the rainforests of South America (I live in Germany) and I've always been in love with these kinds of environments. Kinda wish to be a frog myself.
Anyway, thank you for your work in preserving these beautiful landscapes & the critters that live in them
Thank you so much for watching the episode, Michelle! I’m glad you found the channel as well. 😀
One of your best episodes yet! Bring this guy on again! Lol
Haha thank you! 😁
This is wonderful and you make great points. It's not just about "rights," because with rights come "responsibilities." If there is no responsibility, of course the general public is going to be disgusted and less empathetic or sympathetic towards a group of people that show little to no empathy for the creatures they keep. In general, the way humans treat animals has progressed a lot just in the last century, so if one group of people (some reptile keepers) are for some reason clinging to antiquated practices that disregard the animals' welfare and well being? Why wouldn't the general public support anything that prevents people from keeping them as pets? Optics as well as genuine care that generates welfare and husbandry standards matter.
Thank you for watching it out of your thoughts, Honeybee! 😁
More dialogue like this is needed in herpetoculture, well done my friend!
That being said I would argue it’s unethical in its current state.. The reason for this is no accountability and easy accessibility to the animals themselves.. Being an ethical educated keeper requires a ton of effort, study, and dedication.. However, none of that is required to acquire animals under the vast majority of circumstances..People are inherently lazy by nature which by default means the vast majority of people purchasing animals aren’t taking it seriously. This is because there isn’t any general standards/agreements to do so, as we’ve been given the “Right” to own them under our own terms for better or worse..
I also believe it should be considered a privilege, but that’s not the reality due to the hobby being infused into a massive industry, which is why we have so many unethical keepers.. Simply put it’s mostly about what makes them happy hence the selfish behavior I’ve seen over the near 30 years I’ve worked in the pet industry..
I myself was a keeper for over 20 years and I provided large custom naturalistic enclosures for my 60+ reptiles. But I eventually felt terrible about the situation they were in, even though I was providing above average care and doing education with them via my herp society. I stopped keeping personal animals back in 2014 and now focus more on herpetological conservation projects with my local DNR and work at my local nature center that is focusing on environmental education with the public.. After all my primary interest was always the science of Herpetology and not just keeping animals.. So I essentially found something that was more rewarding and productive for me personally , i.e. conservation and education..
I could go on and on about the issues I have with the fixed mindsets people tend to have about herpetoculture but it’s almost futile in my daily life dealing with customers/hobbyists..
I hope you continue to spread the message of proper etiquette in the reptile community, it’s something that is badly needed, keep up the good work..👍
I’ll leave you with my 5 tenets of animal husbandry..
1. Don’t buy an animal because you want it, buy it because you understand it..
2. Don’t buy a baby if you can’t properly keep an adult..
3. It’s not about what you can do, it’s about what you should do..
4. Select animals that fit your space, budget, time, and skill level..
5. You never know how well you’ve done with an animal until it dies..
Thanks, Matt! I really appreciate you watching the video and adding all your thoughts. I love your tenants!
I love your tenets! I also think it's not a great idea to buy a baby unless you've already taken care of an adult. Things can go wrong so quickly with babies and we can read info til we're blue in the face but experience is the best teacher of all. The usual difference in cost is there for a reason
Right on!.. so glad you realize this at such a young age and benefit all parties involved🐍.. very thoughtful
Thank you so much for watching!
Listened to parts, may continue later but these are my thoughts ATM: most hobbies are ethically complicated, particularly when it involves live animals, but every hobby also involves living humans and can be life saving (and the opposite :/ ) particularly when a communities and other people are in involved . So for myself, I want to engage in hobbies in ways that feels right to me, one of learning, changing, allowing for mistakes. But I also don't want to engage in way that restricts others in way that may be harmful and make the hobby unnecessarily harder to to be part of/less accessible.
For example, conservency is a great personal gol and collective goal for those within the herp community that want to be part of it, but I don't think that needs to be a goal for everyone -- that's a bit overwhelming expectations and also just may not be a interest to someone, who may just enjoy keeping. Similar, doing the best one can do for the animal -- that's also a great personal goal, but mine is to give animals in my care (including feeder (insects) while they are alive), a reasonably good life (enjoyable, engaged, and healthy life), which seems like achievable goal for myself -- where as the idea of "best" is hard for me to quantify personally and can trigger unnecessary anxiety of not meeting that bar. That's somewhat an anxiety thing tho..
On freedom and taking them from the wild and restricting them... Toss up. Like super complicated as talked about, so much I sorta just went whatever. My animals are captive bred for most part (outside of blue bottle beetles), whether they'd have a better life outside depends on so many factors. Valuing freedom over all else is a very American thing (compared to other cultures, many tend to prioritize well being over individual freedom) -- what the animals think about it cannot really know (tho may be some way to study it -- for example, study animals trying to escape a cage??) It's something to consider but 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️ toss up . Not being able to really tell what an animal is really enhances this complicatedness.
On effects that are a pro to this hobby Since getting herps, I've switched to eat more vegetarian due to empathizing more with factory farmed animal conditions, I think that having more empathy for animals is one of the great positives that can result via being part of the community. It's also getting me more involved in being sustainable and environmental in my practices (... Outside of like viviarium building, boi expanding foam can't be that great). Me getting that from the community doesn't mean I think someone else needs to get that. Someone can just enjoy it. But some will get that, and that benefits the world likely. Does that offset the environment effect of like reptile supplies and transportation/etc.? 🤔🤷♂️🤷♂️
My main interaction to the community, outside a couple friends, is online content creators and Facebook (thou have left most groups due to what I perceive as toxicity and too much infighting there). So I am mostly seeing well kept pets kept in amazing bioactive enclosures (I also got into this via houseplants and terrariums). As I have a phobia of rodent corpses and my city disallows a lot of snakes, I have watched a bit of some snake content but don't have well informed perspective around all the issues with keeping of snakes -- (thou I do get TH-cam recced breeder content). I could see my thoughts being different with experiences talked about.
I think some of most powerful thing people wanting change can do is lead by example, showing care for animals that is likely better for them and showing the effect of that I bet is changing others to do similar (I've seen various creators talk about their own care changing via viewing others).
Both the humans and animals welfare are important -- the keepers welfare effects the animals (and visa versa). Being too harsh at someone for their keeping decisions (particularly where it's a controversial issue where there is disagreement around it), can have the opposite effect via someone shutting down /not listening and not changing. Thou also, when comes to content creators and sellers, effecting people's audience and customer base, that can promote them to change to keep those.
Ethically so complicated 😅 thanks for interesting listen and discussion section.
Personally I think it's ethical as long as you follow the 5 provisions of animal welfare and it's unethical to use something like a minimalistic rack system for snakes and geckos and not using radiation and loose substrate for herps at some time.
Yes, I think you are correct about that!
The more I've kept BPs I think it depends on the animal and the rack. They do well, as an example, in a rack. Don't seem to care as long as their fed, safe etc. A little space to exercise helps tho.
@@hi_tech_reptiles People can live long and (physically) healthy lives in prison.
I was raised up with a full complement of local non-venomous native species as pets, bc my father kept them for education. I learned to educate my friends and classmates and have continued the habit and the hobby for the last 55 years. I keep reptiles and tarantulas now with the stipulation that they are all captive bred. My reasons for keeping tarantulas is part pleasure and part participating in an action that can build a living Arc for species that are endangered/rapidly losing their native habitats. For example, I have several species of Poecilotheria and other threatened T's that I'm attempting breeding and selling to fellow hobbyists for the same purpose. I don't for a minute think I'll make a fortune doing it... I just want to help these beautiful spiders to still exist on this earth until people can become aware of what they're doing and correct their actions so these spiders can continue to live wild. I also donate to a charity to further that happening. Dillon, your podcasts are 100% the reason I'm doing that, btw. For my reptiles, it's again for my own pleasure of connecting with nature, and for the challenge of keeping them in such a way as to promote their natural behaviors. Also, having kept specific snakes for their full life spans, you get a feel for when your animal is getting pleasure from interacting with you in your own environment. I don't care even a little bit about folks who swear reptiles can't feel pleasure in interacting with humans... I've observed it over and over. Lori T is my absolute hero! My goals are to always work towards improving my animals' welfare; provide them situations that they can choose to engage in and enjoy; to promote education, appreciation and respect for animals in the wild and to encourage care for their habitats. I also try very hard to make my pleasures purposeful. I pick up trash when I herp in wild spaces. I help relocate snakes and educate about the benefits of having them around. I donate to our National Parks and wildlands. I always try to reduce my impact on nature.
I love this! Thank you for sharing 😁. And of course I agree, Lori is the best!
I don't keep any reptiles... yet. I want to, but I'm still in the learning process and recently asked myself why I want to have a snake so much. I'm glad I found this video because it gave me new insights into the subject and I'm very happy you mentioned Lori, I love her work with snakes so much and want to understand my maybe future snake the way she understands hers.
Thank you very much for watching!
Brian please don't worry about what others are thinking regarding your decision, your the only one that can make that decision, I know i pray I never have to make such a hard decision regarding chemo just stay strong and keep the faith.
Thank you for doing this video, you express all of this very well. For those of us trying so hard here on youtube, to do our channels and put out better information for how to care for our reptiles, there is always room for improvement when it comes to how we represent ourselves to our communities. I view my bearded dragons like breathing bonzai trees, a very involved and intricate hobby, or like an aquarium with a complex ecosystem. (monkey breeders don't sell their monkeys to just anyone, they have to be long term vetted by the rest of the monkey owner community!) I wish reptile owners were the same way. I'm sure there are some people who would see my videos and maybe not understand, if they aren't in the reptile owner community, but I do try and explain what I'm doing and why, if they care to watch. Thank you for being part of a positive force in representing all of us.
Well said, and thank you for watching the video! When I get a chance, I will check out your channel as well.
Sounds like I need to check out your channel as well 😊
You would think with how common western fence lizards are that there would be a ton of info, but no.
Professional range maps are out of date for subspecies and study for their diet and behaviors is sparse.
Now I have a fish and game license and am currently in the works to legally captive breed Coast Range Fence Lizards.
Your podcast is one of the reasons why I got so interested in the reptiles local to me, so I blame you.
Haha that's awesome! Good luck with the research!
Love the video and all the discussion in the comments! A couple things I've thought about that follow a similar argument to points in the video.
1) suppose you had an arbitrarily large space where you could perfectly replicate an animals natural environment. Would it be moral to keep it in that? Suppose then you could, without harming any other animals, remove threats and ensure perfect parameters for it. Would that be moral to keep it in?
2) The idea of going beyond just sufficient care/welfare is a really good one.
3) If people tell you its amoral to keep reptiles, ask them why. Do they hold the same opinions about dogs/cats? After many times fighting with people (especially bird people lol) on reddit and other forums I was told some things I wouldn't have thought about otherwise and it was useful. Other times I realized people who make such criticisms haven't really thought it through so there's not much point in getting defensive about it and could be an opportunity to explain your perspective.
Thanks for watch, KiKi! And thank you for adding to the discussion, these are great pointstopics to bring up with others! (for the record, I think the answer to #1 is, "yes'!)
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Me too :)
Ethical reptile care stems from deep-rooted passion, in my opinion. That passion is not generated just by going into a pet store, spotting a reptile, thinking they're really cute or cool, then taking them home. That's more impulsive, in my opinion. Then come the time the owner loses interest, or doesn't have so much time to put into their hobby, then what happens? The animal(s) get rehomed, sold on, or (worst case) abandoned and the cycle repeats until they are acquired by owners who have a deep-rooted passion. The deep-rooted passion wouldn't allow such to happen in the first place. You either love it or you hate it, no in between. If you love it so much, like any hobby, it is therapeutic, an escape from normality and it can easily become addictive. The animals become part of the family/companionship. So, how to define deep-rooted passion? I would say that there has to be a family/genetic connection with animals - me, personally, as an example, my late Grandfather loved his animals and was very good with their care and husbandry. My mother, also, shares this genetic trait. And so do I. So there's 3 generations. However, neither of them kept reptiles, more birds and mammals (dogs, rabbits, budgies, canaries, chickens, a cow 🤣, a couple of sheep, pigs, geese,.. They were all part of the family!) I only very recently, like in the last week or so, discovered that my great uncle on my father's side, who is a bit of an eccentric like me (🤣), kept an iguana and various other animals. So genetics and genuine interest in the animal, is probably a good definition of deep-rooted passion in my opinion.
Awesome podcast, it is good to broadcast this sort of material as it gets people's minds thinking!
Thanks, Tom! Thank you for adding your comment/thoughts as well :)
this is a smart subject to discuss, now that things are on edge. new laws, new perspective and new rules we need to re-think how to bring our passion, ideas and view to the rest of the world.
i was a little sceptic when you started the podcast but it makes sence now. thank you for bringing this up
Thank you for watching and keeping an open mind!
This is a long comment. 1. How is it not ethical?
I remember my wonder when my second grade teacher brought an aquarium to school which contained bull frog tadpoles. As a class we fed, watched with wonder as the little tads grew into frogs. This was wondrous. It sparked my interest in the world, life, growth, development and science.
When I was about 11 my parents took us all to the zoo. I saw the living animals which I could never have seen otherwise. I felt bad about the small cages. My parents explained that because we could see them and learn to love them that the sacrifice was worth it.
I went to college as a premed student. In biology lab we had to pith a frog for our lab. I did it because I wanted to get a good grade for my future. It was a horrible experience. We had a lab in medical school with a turtle whose plastron had been windowed so we could test the effect of substances on the heart. Perhaps this sacrifice was worth it. I became a caring, careful physician. At a physician there were labs with anesthetized dogs. Looking back, these were dogs who would have been put down because that is what happens to the excess in the pound. This lab taught us to do scary high risk procedures...so the humans would have a better doctor.
Those animals all contributed to my learning. I honor them.
1. Most captive animals live longer in captivity than in the wild.
2. We learn to love and appreciate all living beings.
3. I used to think my dogs were mistreated when I kenneled them. Turns out this became their safe place.
4. Snakes are animals who hide most of the day in a hide, burrow, or such. They go out to eat or mate and risk their lives every time.
5. Industrialized care is not necessarily cruel. If enough animas are bred the price will drop and smuggling will become less lucrative.
6. Privileges come with responsibilities. Good care is done with love.
7. Breeders and hobbiests can save threatened species by captive breeding programs.
8. It is important not to anthropomorphicize our emotions to animals.
9. If you eat any meat of a creature, hush about the animal keeping.
10. Do not over breed.
11. If you are a vegan, how do you know for sure that plants do not feel pain when being pulled out of the ground? Or fruit trees when pruned??
12. Show your care for animals by caring for abused children. Or adopt a pet from the pound.
13. Care as close to natural conditions is desirable.
14. Animals which are becoming extinct are being saved by captive breeding program. Example: the San Diego Zoo's program helping save the Prezwalski horses.
15. Animals give use joy and meaning and can be life saving. I can say that about my rescue dogs. I get it when posts degrade me for having a pit bull. They are loving beasts and one did save my life. Remember verbal attacks ar just print and just someone opinion. Do not take any of it personally.
It is impossible to legislate these things without causing grief to ethical, compassionate breeder keepers.
You made some great points and all very true. Owning any exotic pet does aid in study and being able to see animals never seen before. I've never seen a rainbow boa until I followed Snake Discovery
They're very passionate about conservancy and the animals they own. They now run a zoo and each enclosure is made specifically to that reptile's original habitat. They're also very well taken care of and healthy. They do rescues and surrenders as well as an adoption island. They breed responsibly they make sure all baby snakes born or hatched will be accounted for before breeding. They actually have long waiting lists. These people have to fill out forms to adopt with questions as to why they're adopting and so on. They are so passionate. Their snakes do act naturally.
I loved this episode, I love reptiles but that love stemmed from my love of conservation from a very young age.
Glad you enjoyed it, Aidan! Thank you very much for watching
My moral dilemma comes in the form of rack systems. I understand that breeders with hundreds of snakes can’t possibly have a large enclosure for each snake. I get it. However, keeping a snake in a TINY tub in a rack with nothing but paper and a water bowl is, to me, cruel. There’s no reason why they can’t put some kind of enrichment in the tub such as a couple rocks, a bit of substrate, a fake plant… SOMETHING. Bigger tubs for them to be able to stretch themselves out at least a little bit and get away from the heated side when they choose should also be a necessary thing. Just because you’re a big-time breeder doesn’t mean you should be excused from providing an enriching environment for your animals. It hurts my heart every time I see a tub opened in a video and there’s practically nothing in it but the snake and a water bowl. If you can afford to have hundreds of snakes, you should be able to provide enough space and enrichment for them that they can have a decent life.
Totally agree! Rack systems and their prevalence are a huge stain on the hobby.
We need a self regulating board, comprised of the leaders in the community. A standards committee that accredits sellers, and tests buyers. Set age limits on purchases, just like alcohol. Demand proof of enclosure size, and a competency test. So on and so forth. When we regulate ourselves, outsiders are less interested in doing it for us.
One of my favorite episodes so far.
Thanks for watching, Andy. Happy to hear it’s one of your favorites!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast always a pleasure to hear your voice and your thoughts
The very reason why I don't keep any animals as pets is because I can't bring myself to confining a creature that meant to be free. However, I do enjoy see peoples captive raised pets, it's an interesting hobby and subject.
This was excellent, simply put. 💯
Thanks so much! 😁
for toad keepers : you should have a pond or pool for your toads. a waterdish is not enough, my toad would be very angry if i filled in its river section with dirt.
49:16 so when you ask “is it better for this animal to actually be in the wild?”
That’s a great question. My response may be a counter argument to the ‘invisible ark’ premise but here it goes:
That animal was never in the rainforest. Your boa was born from a litter where, presumably, 20/20 babies survived. Already that’s like 97% more successful than any naturally selected animal. And this has happened for generations in captivity. The picky neonates we assist feed to get started, the ones who miss their prey entirely or go after things like me as prey (or a primate in the jungle) are all animals that would never ever survive. My argument is that we have the closest thing to a wild animal in captivity, but it’s not a wild animal. These are facsimiles designed and bred for life in captivity. Does the pet know there’s much of a difference? Probably not. But is there a difference as far as the natural ecosystem is considered - definitely.
If we’re doing our best to give them a life that allows for them to engage their instincts in the safety of human captivity, then I feel we’ve done right by those animals
Very well said!
i have the answer., in the wild animals live a half life. in captivity they live sometimes 50 years longer
last time i went fishing i found a snapping turtle that had fallen in a 5 ft deep stone hole. think of how hard wild life is. most places snapping turtles are illegal. and would be killed
Indeed.
@@cheeseburgero1also 😊
For me, buying accessories and new stuff for my animals like upgrades, is well over half the fun!
Absolutely! I feel the same way!
I agree. Good points and making sure your goals are clear. Some people work on a breeding project to help with wildlife and some do it for personal reasons or for zoos. After fires or the construction of trails, there is destruction, and reptiles and amphibians are often the last to return to that landscape. If you ever find a lizard in the wild with a paint mark on its back, don’t pick it up. There have been many fires where I am from and the the reptiles have suffered. Horrible to se. I They are often at the bottom of the priority in fire recovery. I feel if you have zero experience you really should just donate. The fires were I live cause by humans. They were not all natural and I feel that what really suck even more so than keeping a reptile as a pet.
There are positives to keeping animals for mental health and learning about animals. Reptiles are all the same. It brings people education and respect for these animals. My landlord was thrilled that I had them and loved my setups for them. She did not even bother making me pay a pet fee. Even some animal survival people said I am doing a fantastic job. Getting that outside validation has boosted my confidence and experience. Being involved in the community really can help in some situations. If the laws are clear, where you live is a privilege. My lizard is a rescue (I bought him from a boy who had no idea what he was doing. He was overwhelmed and could not feed it). My lizard used to escape quite a bit because his old owner let it free in his house with dogs and toddlers in the tiny house. One time I found him in his puddle of pee. He was so scared. Another time I saw him behind my stove. He stopped exploring after that when he realized there was no food and it was much too cold. Some reptiles have been a part of our human lives for a while now. I was catching and obscuring reptiles and other animals in the wild at the age of 4. I would be chilling in a shrub, watching lizards for hours in 90 heat. Never kept them in cages until more recently. I bought and rescued a few last years and still have them.
Thanks for watching the episode, Joanna. I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts as well!
Dope shit kid ,you got me hooked .it’s like yesterday you were collecting red October Yeezy bless up
Thanks dude! Do not understand the Yeezy reference though 😂
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast think about it Ridgefield you were a kid ? Only hint I’m giving my guy but keep up the good work it’s been a long time since I see you I’m happy to see your still out there with animals .
Srry wrong person god bless
This sounds stupid, but I noticed at a young age that my reptiles with high light requirements made me in a better mood… still true to this day!!
Doesn’t sound stupid at all! 😁
Indeed😮
It's a good thing, not just for reptiles but Invertebrates also. Some species have been found to help the medical field, and some have become very close to extinction and someday will only be kept. The same holds true for zoos that are properly kept. This is a subject that pops up a lot in the Tarantula field also but they live a way more stressful and dangerous life in the wild. I keep many exotic species and they all enhance life, and we enhance theirs also. It functions like anything else there are good and bad keepers, but you cant judge it off that. That's all of life and how it works with guns, hunting, business with anything in life actually we don't stop doing and living it because some people make us look bad.
Be the change you wish to see in the world.
We as a community need to come up with a way to empower our voice for our states and make a point against the laws they out agaisnt us. If we believe we should own certain animals we should be allowed to own them with proof we can care for them. We need to get people to respect our educational aspect on keeping animals.
Needed conservation and topic(s). Nice to have an intelligent, intellectual and progressive space in the reptile vlog versus the bombastic and attention seeking vlogs... nice to have the balance.
Haha thank you! I don't have the energy to run around with a camera anyway 😂
I'm a I see it I want it, one of the things I do to get the pet high,is I buy the book. I'll start with a basic care book, then I'll get a more in depth book. I'm usually done by the first basic care book, I still get the more in depth book because it's always interesting and a lot of the time I find the simpler things,i.e. some of the plants or set up work can be modified for
something I already have. I have found some great equipment in reptile husbandry that has actually helped with cleaning carpets..lol. I have a couple dwarf frogs that live with my betta, but I have sooooo many books on axylotles, spiders, pond creatures,, lizards,snakes. Ect. Children can be involved my kids wrote to local politicians when they were young about various conservation laws. They thought they were too young to influence politicians but that is not true, in 5 years a 13 yr.old will be able to vote and those politicians don't want to be local forever. I loved this conversation, I would ask that you do edit it, clarify, and post a shorter version on Facebook. !😊
Thank you for watching episode, kitty! I agree, the books are a great outlet for wanting to purchase some thing. I will work on a shorter version of this 😊
If one is going to keep an animal, any animal, one should do their best to provide the best care possible. Enrichment, healthy diet, healthy socialization and interaction, whatever that level might be for that species and individual. I do hesitate at the breeding of certain genetics for aesthetic purposes, we know how wrong that go can (look at pugs).
Well said
Im right there with you i dont keep currently, but am debating getting back into it. Ive kept a myriad of herps which has allowed me to focus in on what i really like. Keeping Anoles that are now living outside my house since i live in NC now, would have been my choice before. Now that i see how wide and far they range in my yard i wonder if i can provide the same thing for them in captivity. A 12 foot x 18 inches x 8 foot tall would be used by them completely and thats what i would want to see if i get back into keeping.
That’s the best mindset to start with! That way (if you do get back into keeping), you’ll go about it the right way 👌🏼
I have a large common boa c. constrictor but she is my only reptile but I do have fish, tarantulas, scorpions and a ton of cats and potted plants😻🐍🦂🪴🕷️
Awesome! 👌🏼
Awesome! I´ve just discovered you, congrats! I´d like to talk to you some day 🙂
I’m glad you found the channel, thank you for watching the episode!
Well said Dillon!
Thank you! :)
This is awesome, and I wish every pet owner would watch this. I'm in the same headspace so much of the time. I like your points, though, and think I will take my personal contributions to the next level by directly supporting conservation efforts.
Have you read the book Wild Souls by Emma Marris? It has more to do with wild animals as opposed to captive, but think you'd find it interesting. Here's a snippet about it:
Protecting wild animals and preserving the environment are two ideals so seemingly compatible as to be almost inseparable. But in fact, between animal welfare and conservation science there exists a space of underexamined and unresolved tension: wildness itself. When is it right to capture or feed wild animals for the good of their species? How do we balance the rights of introduced species with those already established within an ecosystem? Can hunting be ecological? Are any animals truly wild on a planet that humans have so thoroughly changed? No clear guidelines yet exist to help us resolve such questions.
Thank you for watching, Adam! I haven't read that book, thanks for the recommendation and the snippet. I will pick it up!
I agree with much of what you say. I no longer breed my animals (even though I could sell the offspring easily enough) for the reasons you explain.
Where I think you can go in other directions is with respect to charity, conservation and introduction to nature.
Are there ways to live our lives so that charity is not necessary? How do our life choices impact the environments we are attempting to 'conserve'? Where do the rare earth elements for our UVB's come from?
One of our cultural challenges is moving past the assumption that we are separate from nature. The relations we have with our animals can help some of realise that we are kin, and that is a good thing.
Still you cannot not be in nature (you ARE nature), and there are opportunities to connect with other species everywhere. Have a listen to this Michel Grobbe interview th-cam.com/video/0ZXg3pFLVTc/w-d-xo.html
Anyway, thanks for encouraging thought and promoting better care?
great points, Edward!
I’m only 10 mins in but very interesting it’s come up as the last 2 podcast I’ve recorded seem to be on the same page!
Or topic or theme as haven’t seen your views yet! It’s Also something my brain is struggling with atm
Prob why I’m projecting in my podcast 😂
But either way thank you for sharing this important topic! And can’t wait to hear what you have to say on it!
one of us! one of us!
@@ReptilesandResearch me and Stefan had a good chat on it! Like didn’t talk Borneos at all 😂😂
Also consider the fact until 1994 crested geckos and gargoyle geckos were considered to be extinct. Now there are literally millions due to the pet trade and people breeding them. I see that as preservation of a species
I think reptile owners who are good keepers and keep good husbandry and care for their reptiles that it's not anyone's business what I do with my pets. I have a dog and other mammals and reptiles and I keep every one of my pets in great condition and if they have any options about my animals if it's not positive it's nothing that I want to hear. If I was not doing the right thing and my animals were in any condition that were on the verge of being neglected or something then sure someone should be able to say and do something about it. I love the education part of keeping reptiles
I'm watching this for the second time and just realized your boa is telescoping and staring up at the light. My BCI does the same thing and I was wondering why they do this and if it's safe? I use Arcadia Shade Dweller Pro low UVB lights for my snakes. Thanks!
Honestly, I’m really not sure why they do it? 🤷🏼♂️ but I’m fairly certain it’s perfectly safe considering how short the exposure is 😁
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Thanks! And thanks for the great content. I'm one of those people whose reptiles give me a reason to keep going. You and Liam both have made me a much better keeper.
@@lorrainekay13 thank you Lorraine 😁
In my experience herp keepers are the least of all groups of pet owners and breeders that need to work on this. Dog and cat farming are rife, fish are bred and gifted to shops because people can't care for them once they are produced. Cats and dogs are just dumped on a regular basis. No one asks why these should be kept.
My view on keeping is the same approach I took with my cat and dog; will I commit to keeping them correctly. What can I do to give them the best? I have a corn snake that is 13 years old (average age is just 5-8 years old), tame as they come, healthy and well cared for. My asian water dragon has a 6ft tall bioactive viv complete with sump filtered pond. I don't feel the need to explain why I own them anymore than my dog and cat. The idea that because they exist in the wild is no different from feral cats, dogs and wild fish.
Interesting perspective! And yeah it’s funny how low the “average” lifespans are. In reality corns can easily live into their 20s/30s
I love the part about being in tough with nature. People on Reddit world bash me about having a too tall enclosure for a ball Python and I would be so confused because… nature is huge? Hides play the role of a safe place. I could not agree with you more in this video.
Thank you so much for watching the video, glad you enjoyed it. Don’t listen to the folks on Reddit, listen to your animal 😀
I respect your opinion on that topic...
But speaking for myself, through my animals i got a reason to donate money to preserve theyr natural counterparts theyr natural habitat...
I like were your going with that i sometimes struggle myself to explain the why, to ppl outside of the hobby.
Beside donating hundreds of € to those conservation groups...
I have a bigger issue with birds. As long as an enclosure is big enough and the mental stimuli is there I have no issue. The recommended enclosure sizes is though ridiculous in general. Generally I mean they must be tripled, altleast for snakes and big lizards/monitors. I did an experiment a few days ago and im now debating to use a small room as an enclosure for 1 snake. The room is 4x3 meters in size and 2.20 meters high. The snake is climby semi arboreal.
Beautifully said 💯💯💯
Thank you! 😁
there is a diffrence between keeping and the hoarding of reptiles and what about the snobbery of the 'Rare" when really most of the ones kept are a lesser than of the original, morphs het this t neg that ya know the whole strawberry snow icecream het for strawberry snow blizard yougert, see i see no point other than some bragging rights
I have a rescue snake and personally feel guilty. She's in a large enclosure and she's having an even bigger one custom built. However I'm conscious that I'm keeping a wild animal still in a box. With limited choices and against her will. I dont believe any animals would choose to live in a box. I think we do certainly need to change our language when describing 'exotic pets'. They aren't pets they ARE wild animals and this must not get lost as this is integral to who these animals actually are and if in human care this should be reflected. Using the term pet is so problematic, they aren't pets and vets are often very poorly placed to help when they are sick and the enclosures sold are so incredibly small that most mop buy for most species, same for other wild animals commonly kept like fish, birds and rodents. I think its heart breaking.
Peta doesn't want any animals to be kept either. Livestock, pets, or otherwise, but we can kill them to deforest an area for new homes or business. We will always see the worst examples of pet keepers/ animal a users that will never change and it will always over shadow the really good keepers that care, love their animals while progressing the hobby. Privilege is the best way to put it. I've grown compassion from keeping, makes me do more.
This so true see some really bad stuff on Facebook 😢and pet shops are worse
Definitely 🙁
Can you please make a video about the spiritual aspects of keeping reptiles?
Is there something specific you have in mind?
My view on the ethics of reptile keeping is that ultimately, it's just as ethical as keeping any other animal. If someone takes such a hardline stance on the ethics of keeping reptiles that they view reptile keeping as unethical, it also means that keeping any animal is unethical by their standards. The argument of the lack of space (keeping the reptile in a box) and the lack of freedom and the potential for reptile abuse also applies to dogs, cats, hamsters, every single animal kept by humans.
In short, reptile keeping should have the same standards as other animals being kept. They should be given as much space as possible, they should be fed nutritious food on a schedule that keeps them healthy, signs of illness or injury should prompt a vet visit, and mental stimulation should be provided. If these are not being met, it's animal abuse and unethical. If the standards are being met, then keeping the animal is ethical, reptile or not.
If someone has had reptiles for many years, and reptile keeping becomes illegal in the state where he lives, could he replace those reptiles with some other kind of animals (say: hamsters, or fancy pigeons) and become equally happy, or is he going to be stuck in a longing to have reptiles forever? This is becoming an increasingly important question because in many parts of the world politicians think about restricting the keeping of exotic animals. I know my personal answer to this, but would really like to know how others think about "forced switching to another animal group"?
This is a very interesting question, and I think one that will become more and more relevant as time goes on. Personally, I think I could probably get away with keeping fish and/or inverts and still enjoy the practice, however, I don’t think I would get the same enjoyment out of keeping mammals
My family breeds ball pythons and keep them in rack systems. I've told them how it can be bad for them but because other breeders told them they like being in a tub (on news paper with nothing but a hide and a waterbowl) they won't listen to me. I'm still under 18 and can't do much myself. If someone has advice, please share. I want to do everything I can to give them the best care possible.
That’s a tough situation! The only thing I can think of is leading by example, if there’s any way you can include enrichment in some of the tubs, I think they’ll be a great start! Maybe if your family sees the snakes interacting with enrichment, open their minds to a different way of thinking
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast I'll try that. Thank you!
Animals can be ethically kept and the educational aspect of captive animals should not be ignored, but I strongly agree in the introduction of rules, laws, permits and registration for ALL captively kept animals.
The fact of the matter is, the majority of animals are not kept in a way that I would consider to be truly ethical. The reptile hobby alone is an unregulated mess where failure to care for an animal or even mass hoarding of hundreds of illegal animals only ever results in the animals suffering or being euthanized, while the keeper gets off scott free or with a slap on the wrist.
Previously I have purchased animals from stores/ breeders. Right now, I have 2 reptiles, 2 birds and a dog. All are re-homed/ rescue situations and I cant bring myself to ever consider purchasing a new animal from a breeder or pet store ever again. There are so many poorly kept animals in captivity and sitting in shelters right now and that unfortunately goes completely against the ethical side of pet keeping that so many people fight for.
Minimum standards (enclosure size, kibble diets etc) for most pets are pathetic. And even those minimum standards are usually just seen as the normal way to do things by private keepers with the breeding facilities getting a pass on below minimum standards.
I've got bp in a 72Lx24Wx36H and a leopard gecko in a 48x18x18. These are both above the minimum recommendation even amongst advanced keeping standards but it still doesnt so these animals justice to what they should have for space when compared to the wild. It's a huge improvement from the Leo's former 10 gallon home with his previous owner and the formerly obese python's 36x18 floor space he had at the rescue but I still look at them and think about how much different their lives would be if they remained wild.
I'd discuss my thoughts on keeping parrots in captivity but this comment is already long enough.
Tldr; The entire pet hobby needs more regulations, laws and punishments for breaking said laws. For ethical reasons, I will personally not be purchasing a new animal from a breeder or store every again and will stick to rescues/re-homes.
Thank you for watching the episode, Rob! And I really appreciate the informative comment!
Do choice based handling training training training, funny how I got a cobble of wield animals on the other side albino pytons roam the dessert xD
Choice based handling is 👏🏼👌🏼👍🏼