When the game is balanced around everyone having insane dps the tanks win because they actually can stay alive for more than 3 seconds , lowering weapon damage would benefit non tank character's a lot because then the tanks can no longers burst the dps characters and get destroyed after this tank meta hapenned in league , dota2 and even smite, when this happens is usually something making people deal insane dmg , and im pretty sure its improved burst and -% resist items that are suposed to be anti tank but mathematically are anti squishy and just amplify the base dmg of tanks way too much
I would also like to say I think it’s really healthy for the game that all characters are viable if you know how to play them. One of my friends put it like this, some characters are just more shiny then others but they all shine
Meh idk man. In the laning phase yeah hes very oppressive with his cheesy hook into knock you behind the tower stick but this double bomb bebop build that so many people are playing right now is more than easily countered by just getting the relatively cheap debuff remover. Then he only can put the bomb on himself and this means that only really skilled bebops will be able to do alot of damage. His hook still can be useful though ngl.
@@AeneaSXIthe qualifier “good when skilled” is kind of redundant. Assume competent players for tier lists. So a good bebop with double bomb can do crazy shit. I had 1365 dmg on bomb just on the ability text earlier today before spirit item effects like imp burst and the delayed 40%. Killed entire enemy team hitting our patron double bombing myself. Ended with 110k damage when we played mostly from behind and next highest in game was like 70k. It can be counterplayed but has high potential and potency. Hook really isn’t hard to hit compared to other mobas and the echo build allows you to double fish surprise after missed hooks. I don’t think he’s too OP but I also wouldn’t be surprised at all if bomb gets nerfed next patch.
@@Tabnitoits not specifically for healbane, just says that it doesnt apply any item procs (escalating exposure, healbane, mystic slow/suppressor, bullet res shredder etc.)
I think McGinnis is a B tier character. It's super hard to put her behind in laning phase with her whole kit. She's tanky, with a decent amount of health and baseline 25% spirit resist, making it very difficult for spirit champions to bully her just from that alone. Her turrets add significant early dps and make it hard to dive her or even deny a minimum amount of farm. The heal adds a lot of sustain and heals allies and minions alike, in addition to a 35% fire rate boost at just level 1. The wall is so versatile, it boosts your damage, guarantees you safety to farm, stuns, splits enemies, helps you escape, it goes on and on. The ult is the worst part of her kit to be sure, but it can do a lot in the very early game, you can clear waves in a second, push objectives quickly or punish enemies hiding at the shop, and clear high level jungle camps earlier than anyone else. Her ult can do a lot of damage if you choose to max it first, but imo her wall and heal offer more at max level especially in mid game. She's probably never going to outright carry the teamfight, but she can exert so much pressure on lanes and objectives that you can't just ignore her, and you can't send someone to deal with her alone unless they're super fed. She also has the option of several builds, either going gun focused maxing wall first and using the turrets as debuffers to surprise punish people for fighting on top of you, or going spirit focused and using your ult and turrets to make fighting on top of you a monumental undertaking. Her strength is that it's impossible to put a decent player behind, and she's very safe. I think she isn't flashy and maybe doesn't attract a lot of the spicy players, leaving people to think she's weaker than she is. Nearly everyone I see just plays endless laning phase lol.
In almost every game, my haze will go through "suppressing the opponent → killing the opponent → knocking down the first tower → teammate disadvantage → free farm all over the map → killing people by the way → first in the game in economy → guarding the house → killing 3 to 4 in team battles People → Hard comeback”
@@VZthirds you can't outrun it if she gets slowing bullets. She does not slow down when casting it other than being unable to sprint. you also have about 1-2 secs to get out from full hp to not die, if you had any missing health subtract from that 1-2 seconds.
it would be absolutely broken if it proc'd items like healbane or escalating exposure, that being said, the fact that all of Pocket's abilities are AoE damage abilities means it's very easy to proc healbane on their whole team just playing him normanlly.
it makes me unnecessarily happy to see Ivy in S teir and not a soul in the comments bashing that. she (according to the dead stats site) is one of the least played heros and i ADORE her kit. stone statueing a cocky haze ult will never not make me grin like an idiot. all the jokes about how hot she is aside, genuinely one of the best characters and people are SLEEPING on her
I genuinely would put haze in S-Tier. just got out of a game where we won our lane against haze 4-0 with a 3k souls lead and she still outfarmed everyone by the end with a whopping 72k souls. She is a farming monster. Not only that, but she was pretty much impossible to kill unless we had our entire team ready at all times. Teamfights were almost impossible if she was alive. We had curse, slowing hex, decay, metal skin, etc etc and yet even when we peeled for our strongest player (infernus) we had a hard time killing her. I feel like it's incredibly easy to perform very well with her. We lost the game very closely in the end with about a 3k souls difference between both teams. But I also thought to myself that maybe Haze isn't super strong but rather the fact that team compositions are random that you really can't counterpick against anyone. Our team had little big damage dealers such as haze, making it hard to take her down because our damage output just wasn't enough. I also think if we had someone like Mo & Krill it would've made fighting against her much easier with his ult. I wonder if they'll add a drafting mode sometime during the playtest. They might save it for a fully fledged ranked mode though.
@@kamrenwilliams2103 haze is ult made if you build around her ult, her kit is extremely strong for early aggression against other squishes. Her literal only counter is just either farming under tower or playing a tank.
Finally someone else pointing out how ridiculously strong she is. There really isn't any suppressing haze because due to her 2 she can stealth farm lanes. You have to commit a ton to suppressing her and once she gets 'Unstoppable' gg any hard counters like Mo&Krill against her. Rate of fire ridicuously powers up her ulti's dmg~ all on-hits apply~ AND there is a way to proc things like bullet resist shredder or using hunter's aura to reduce your B.armor. She can duration extend past your metal skins, she can cooldown enhance it to about 41 secs I think? Haze was my first character when i played the game. I main her and infernus and her counterplay compared to infernus is night and day.
As a yam onetrick after you get to 3 T4 items you cant really counter Yamato with items anymore. Soul rebirth prevents her from getting countered as your counters go on CD and she can insta ult after she gets up.
It's kinda weird how nobody mentions Vindicta's ult being among the most broken thing in this game - it's a lnog range shot that kills you at half-health, then rewards her with 3 times the souls, which means she's basically always ahead of you, even if you have more farm or kills
I completely agree about Mo and Krill. I tried him out and now I'm gonna main him. His gun was the first thing I noted, + with an early headshot booster it goes crazy and the enemies are always being denied.
I think it would be interesting to do a solo que tier list as strong heroes like Dynamo and Mo&Krill lose a lot of their power due to the lack of coordination.
Completely bonkers. His gun has some of the highest early game Dps and so getting ahead which is easy with a hero that has such a good kit means his bubble becomes a mo and Krill ult basically
Paradox is such a fun kit but god I wish I had some better nuke potential or solo potential. I feel like without a teammate to capitalize on a swap it’s hard to really do damage.
Counterpoint to the Seven Ult Build: I've been running it a lot and think it brings HUGE crowd control potential. Reach makes stun and ult better, and in the late game, a ult-focused build makes it extremely punishing to stay in a team fight. You can kind of give your team free pushes every team fight if the other team doesn't play for range/easy stuns
For anyone who just cares about seeing the tier list and not listening to the whole video are the ones who contradict this list so hard. Every hero in this game is busted and almost every item in the shop is busted so just don’t feed the other team and you will have fun :) great video and I support this list heavy.
agreed on pocket. i actually think he's better than m&k/ivy as well. i think pocket is the best laner in the game tbh. easy harass, good weapon, can dodge stuns/punches, can run people down, amazing ganker, etc.
Seven Support stun build is crazy strong and you really dont need that many souls to come online. You just need echo shard and then you can eventually get duration, reach, cooldown as the game progresses. Even if you are behind you still get a ton of value.
Haze not being in S++ tier is a travesty. Doesn't matter how you stomp her, if you let her get 6,200 souls you lose. She gets unstoppable and your counters for her go right out the window. Her ult has a short cooldown, long duration, HUGE radius, procs from a ton of items like ricochet, hunter aura, toxic bullets, bullet shred+ tesla rounds etc PLUS increasing her fire rate DOES increase her dmg dealt of her ultimate~ by insane levels. There are alot of prob of balancing in the game right now but Haze is a prime offender.
paradox's ult also gives her 100% spirit lifesteal during the swap. this isn't too impactful during the later stages of the game where everyone has antiheal and you get stomped if you're caught anyways, but it gives paradox a lot of playmaking and dueling potential in the early to midgame
Bebop is always #1, the infinite scaling on bomb is so insane, basically the Veigar of Deadlock, over 1k each bomb, double bomb is hilarious + reverb. People finally buying shift/remover kills the fun though :(
Saw a turret spirit mcginnis build. It isnt like it annihilates you, but god damn seeing like 5-6 turrets that are all locked onto you along with enemies attacking you can shred your health
I remember seeing such a large amount of turrets that I thought it was some sort of bug. But then I uh, moved away from them, and they weren't a problem at all
I feel it was a little crazy to nerf Seven's ult already. His 3rd ability hits harder late game and I find myself ignoring the ult for the most part when playing against. Build around stamina and control to hold and out dps people in a 1v 1 / 2 I can see the value in zoning, but you really have to pick the spot well or be high enough to not be interacted with. Otherwise he gets shredded with the drop in bullet resist. Still a fav character to play, but weird nerf imo. Mostly posting so someone can clarify the value that needed to be dropped from him in the patch (seemed like because of a low skill floor he was deemed Great)
A good way to counteract people shredding the ult with bullet damage is to prepop return fire before ulting. It basically makes it pretty impossible to out dps it with bullet damage if you are of equal level with the opponent. I still definitely think building lightning gun is better than building ult, but return fire is a nice way to increase the value you can get out of the ult. Also as of the patch yesterday it gives like 12 spirit power so its a win-win :)
I think Lash is stronger than B, it's just the tank and healing meta doesn't allow him to do his job well. And the targets he can burst down could burst him down just as quickly, fly away, or heal off his whole combo in a matter of seconds. It's the atmosphere we're in.
Also as a lash main, sup stamina and you they recharge before you finish your combo. But he is feast or famine unless you know cheeky spots and are great with your Macro timings when ganking from height. But if youre in either mid lanes you can oppresds BOTH mid lanes by slamming from the top ropes after you push wave. Loads of fun doing 400 damage with no items edit also lash has underrated early game laning vs every person bewcausse flog is crazy and his weapon damage is pretty damn good too. Play around mid bridge, poke melees for confirms and cs their orbs for free. Get early weapon damage and heashot them down. I outlane vindictas constantly because she has -15% bullet damage off rip. Use that to your advantage!
Mama Mcginnis once her fire rate is fast enough just melts. Fleetfoot changed the way I play with her. (Damn just saw him put her at D lol) I mean.. she's slow and her wind up up is slow, but im an average player and im a menace. I feel she's atleast a B if the right player uses her, plus slowing bullets is the icing to her kit
I love Paradox, it can do a LOT of damage but it has no escape and makes you depend a lot on your team. I think it has a VERY good line phase. My current mains are Lady Geist, Dinamo and Yamatoe!
They McGinnis slander is crazy, but I agree with everything else so far. I can believe you that at higher levels she falls off in viability, but I do feel like she offers a whole lot.
i think pocket is gonna stay in S tier for a while off his ult alone. sustainability is a must in any MOBA with insane damage and with pocket's ult negating a chunk of that heal (especially since people go leech late game) it will be a terrible match for tank builds
Good point. I've pretty much only been playing Pocket and can say he feels overpowered right now, despite his barrage damage amp per stack getting lowered by 1% twice. I hope they only tweak his numbers and don't change anything about his mechanics, because he's ridiculously fun to play! What are your thoughts?
Dude I swear to god. Talon is for sure A tier. He is extremely hard to play impactfully but he is insanely good idk. If a person knows how to play Talon it is a nightmare for opponents.
17:20 For balance pocket, 10 sec for being useless, 15 to be good enough, and the current ult are kinda broken since we can do more. xd but they can balance the duration and dmg in the future.
depending on what you have, it might be impossible to face a mo and krill in the lining stage cuz it has everything, disarm, heal and damage reduction so yeah
Build Lady Geist with health/defense and spirit lifesteal on Vitality, some basic weapon item upgrades and then go all out spirit damage and upgrade cooldown and reach on the Q. I promise you wont be disappointed. It makes lady geist very impactful in team fights and just all around much better than the weapon 1v1 build.
finally someone who understands the hero :) just carried a game we were badly loosing, like 10k behind on souls minute 20, cos when Lady gets spirit armor and spirit lifesteal and a little bit of spirit power enemies cant push the core since all the creeps are dead to 1-3 spam from miles away. And then when you get mystic reverb, unbound spirit and all the goodies you just kill everything. Finished the game when we pushed weakend core and they killed everyone bar me, who soloed last 50% hp while literally being targeted by their whole team for 10 seconds.
McGinnis definitely deserves to be higher than C tier dude. Unless they have unstoppable, she can stop Bebop, Haze, Seven, and Dynamo ult instantly with her wall stun. That alone is high value, she shuts down powerful ults almost immediately if they can land the wall. On top of her heal drone scaling in AoE radius and pumping respectable healing, she can turn an entire team into a firing line to melt any objective with the right build. You’re severely underrating her, she’s not S tier by any means, but I’d say she’s mid A. Sevens only value is his stun. He’s extremely easy to deny in lane from over clearing with his 3 and 1 if he uses them every other wave off cooldown. Ult sucks, 1 is low damage and easy to avoid, 3 is just better Tesla bullets and weaker Infernus 3. He’s terrible
No shot Lday Geist is C. She can output so much dmg from so far, hitting so many heroes at the same time. If you play spirit, her ult and her 2 are if you get jumped.
No ones talking about viscous and how his abilities have literally no counter to them besides buying an item. You cant even hide behind cover. Its so oppressive. Jonas is the only person ive hard talk about that and still he is underselling him.
@@AverageJonas while I agree with you some what, maybe I just feel like he doesn't take as much skill because I'm in a higher mmr. I feel like his abilities aren't that hard to hit. His survivability is off the charts and he can literally just counter silence buy buying it himself. I applaud you for shining some light on him but I think he's so slept on. He can get fed so fast but ultimately you are right that mo can shut him down really fast. Viscous is a monster in early lane phase against almost all the heroes. Not to mention his cube is literally a get out of jail free card for SO many situations and he can even use it on a team mate with bad positioning.
@@AverageJonas "because I'm in a higher mmr" I could see how that sounds. I didn't mean higher than you just much higher than average so my understanding of using characters like viscous is higher. I don't even feel like his skill shots are even "skill" shots.
That makes sense, my only criticisms on your tier list was the viscous and lash placement. I feel like if this was specifically a high mmr tier list you woulda put them higher.
I have been playing a lot of mcginness and I agree. She is good but she gets caught out extremely easily. I hope they buff her guns ease of use in the future. It's good fully spun up but when people hear you prerevving they just leave. 2 seconds rev up time is a little long. Also her kit gives you bonuses for staying still but staying still is death in this game.
I'm pretty sure that healbane doesn't work with pocket ult, since the dot won't proc any item effects ( would probably be way too op w/ mystic slow on the whole team for 20+ seconds) source: dirty pocket main
Slice and dice Shiv build in particular is definitely S tier. He's damn near unkillable and will straight up 1vX the other team. Knife builds and gun builds are noticeably worse after most recent nerfs.
Love the content and the switch to something that has the potential to give you content and make you happy for years to come. But why on earth if your face in the middle of the tier list? Are you in the game now too? Valve’s reward for leaving Riot?
Wraith Ult is simply just not very good. Tons of other heroes have a stun on their base abilities, and most of the time short stun is all you need to melt someone. Her Ult is just overkill for something that most teams can already do intermittently throughout the game.
That is completely cap. Wraith ult is an aoe stun she also has a teleport with some attack speed buff and huge burst with cards especially early game. She wins lane consistenly and scales better than almost all other character'. You have to be low MMR bro to think that @@yesiam7481
@@roodiger Oh her gun DPS is great; Its at the greater picture that she just doesn't provide the team with any utility, no generic area-denial bomb on her 1 bc she has her throwing cards, just a basic immobilizing stun on her ult. The same reason Geist is so low, their kits are selfish. They both do high damage, and thats about it. Theres plenty of characters than can do just as much damage, and also be more disruptive/supportive in a team fight.
@@yesiam7481 Wraith is strong throughout the entire game, she scales better than 99% of hereos. She has an AoE ult, a get out jail free card with her teleport and burst with her cards. The only characters that can put out more sustained damage is Haze. Her ult is an aoe stun on a hyper carry. She is easily a top tier character. Stuns are objectively the strongest cc in the game and hers will aoe. Its essentially a Dynamo ult on a hyper carry.
Her 4 itself is hard to balance. Sometimes you just don't want to shoot Geist at all, just because of the pressure of her potentially swapping and insta-killing you
Hey I have a question about double bomb bebop. I LOVE Bebop and have played so many games on him, both gun build and bomb build. The main problem I have with the bomb build tho is that if I get echo shard I normally don’t get spirit glyph because I feel like the window to use both after hook is really hard. Do you run both active items in the build? I really feel like spirit glyph is a must for bebop because most characters like pocket and viscous can use their self peel ability and get rid of bomb damage
I give hazes 1 ult. Then i build Metal skin or reflect depending on the hero i am. Metal skin is also just VERY good against gun builds in general. e.g. Mcginnis, shiv gun build, vindicta, wraith.
McGinnis is a pub stomp. And shes the only hero i know that can solo mid boss with 4 turrets. I still think her turrets are overtuned. They do alot of damage... Have chuncky health. Very hard to play against depending on the hero.
Personally, late game lady guist is nye unstoppable. back line daggers and pots. i single handedly win games on her all the time just because of how much damage i do. very few people can out burst me and 1v1's are a joke. as soon as you get level 3 in skill 1 and 3, with escalating exposure, its basically over as long as your team can hold their own and dont over extend.
Ngl I forget it can do that sometimes because most games don't have that,as a Lady Geist player I will use that more rather than lining up to go around the cover.
I might not be high mmr yet, but im constantly top fraging with talon using the spirit arrow build. Also hitting 16m/s is too good. Gotta land your arrows though. Using rain of arrows is a trap
Haze doesn't get countered by metal skin. Her ult build gets silencer. Even if she doesn't have silencer yet, you'll still take half your health bar before you can even react
@@ArkbladeIX haze most definitely gets countered by metal skin as silencer doesn’t stop item usage nor dashes. So you can metal skin and get o it of her aoe by the time it runs out.
If you have questions about Deadlock or want to see more gameplay/theorycrafting, don't hesitate to join my daily streams on twitch.tv/averagejonas
ah yes the classic moba experience, tanks are the strongest and deal a lot of damage
And never dies
And have the most CC
Haze players when they can't just ult and win the game
@@Matt-fm4vrnah you can ult them too xD
When the game is balanced around everyone having insane dps the tanks win because they actually can stay alive for more than 3 seconds , lowering weapon damage would benefit non tank character's a lot because then the tanks can no longers burst the dps characters and get destroyed after this tank meta hapenned in league , dota2 and even smite, when this happens is usually something making people deal insane dmg , and im pretty sure its improved burst and -% resist items that are suposed to be anti tank but mathematically are anti squishy and just amplify the base dmg of tanks way too much
I would also like to say I think it’s really healthy for the game that all characters are viable if you know how to play them. One of my friends put it like this, some characters are just more shiny then others but they all shine
Well said!
Or you could be like me, and it doesn't matter what character you play because my aim is awful.
@quinnhe4942 play more ability/support focused characters then
@@quinnhe4942just play Abrams don't even have to shoot much just punch 👊🏽
@@odd02yeah then you get parried 😂😂
Bebop if he's played by a good player and is on my team: SSS+
Bebop if he's on the enemy team: remove from the game NOW
Meh idk man. In the laning phase yeah hes very oppressive with his cheesy hook into knock you behind the tower stick but this double bomb bebop build that so many people are playing right now is more than easily countered by just getting the relatively cheap debuff remover. Then he only can put the bomb on himself and this means that only really skilled bebops will be able to do alot of damage.
His hook still can be useful though ngl.
@@AeneaSXI this double bomb only works on noobie lobies. Bebop Bullet build can one shot everyone with the hook when feeded
@@Rodinho37 Most people have the ability to one shot when fed w a bullet build lmfao
@@AeneaSXIthe qualifier “good when skilled” is kind of redundant. Assume competent players for tier lists. So a good bebop with double bomb can do crazy shit. I had 1365 dmg on bomb just on the ability text earlier today before spirit item effects like imp burst and the delayed 40%. Killed entire enemy team hitting our patron double bombing myself. Ended with 110k damage when we played mostly from behind and next highest in game was like 70k. It can be counterplayed but has high potential and potency. Hook really isn’t hard to hit compared to other mobas and the echo build allows you to double fish surprise after missed hooks. I don’t think he’s too OP but I also wouldn’t be surprised at all if bomb gets nerfed next patch.
@@ethanlee4910yeah gun build can work on every hero when fed in average lobbies 🤷♂️ Bebop has above average steroids attached to his 1 and 3 though.
Every time I lane against Bebop I have an overwhelming desire to slam my head into my keyboard
That is why I love bebop
Sorry about that. Lol
Ivy is very good against him I think
@Skincrafto na, out of my 50 games, and 9 ivy's to memory, she's just mildly annoying
@@LatinGman ivy can counter bombs and all of bebop damage
Healbane does not work on Pocket's ult. It's even stated explicitly in the description of the ability.
Damn I did not know that, thanks!
Can't you just apply it before and then hit the ult?
Huh, that's very specific.
@@Tabnitoits not specifically for healbane, just says that it doesnt apply any item procs (escalating exposure, healbane, mystic slow/suppressor, bullet res shredder etc.)
His ult prevents 60% of healing anyways
I think McGinnis is a B tier character. It's super hard to put her behind in laning phase with her whole kit. She's tanky, with a decent amount of health and baseline 25% spirit resist, making it very difficult for spirit champions to bully her just from that alone. Her turrets add significant early dps and make it hard to dive her or even deny a minimum amount of farm. The heal adds a lot of sustain and heals allies and minions alike, in addition to a 35% fire rate boost at just level 1. The wall is so versatile, it boosts your damage, guarantees you safety to farm, stuns, splits enemies, helps you escape, it goes on and on. The ult is the worst part of her kit to be sure, but it can do a lot in the very early game, you can clear waves in a second, push objectives quickly or punish enemies hiding at the shop, and clear high level jungle camps earlier than anyone else. Her ult can do a lot of damage if you choose to max it first, but imo her wall and heal offer more at max level especially in mid game.
She's probably never going to outright carry the teamfight, but she can exert so much pressure on lanes and objectives that you can't just ignore her, and you can't send someone to deal with her alone unless they're super fed. She also has the option of several builds, either going gun focused maxing wall first and using the turrets as debuffers to surprise punish people for fighting on top of you, or going spirit focused and using your ult and turrets to make fighting on top of you a monumental undertaking.
Her strength is that it's impossible to put a decent player behind, and she's very safe. I think she isn't flashy and maybe doesn't attract a lot of the spicy players, leaving people to think she's weaker than she is. Nearly everyone I see just plays endless laning phase lol.
In almost every game, my haze will go through "suppressing the opponent → killing the opponent → knocking down the first tower → teammate disadvantage → free farm all over the map → killing people by the way → first in the game in economy → guarding the house → killing 3 to 4 in team battles People → Hard comeback”
This is like 80% of my haze games lol she is a really good character to play when solo queueing
@@gravoligaming3970 Her ult is nuts.
you have to run away from the ult it's wild
@@VZthirds you can't outrun it if she gets slowing bullets. She does not slow down when casting it other than being unable to sprint. you also have about 1-2 secs to get out from full hp to not die, if you had any missing health subtract from that 1-2 seconds.
Pocket ult does not proc items so healbane works only for normal skills
it would be absolutely broken if it proc'd items like healbane or escalating exposure, that being said, the fact that all of Pocket's abilities are AoE damage abilities means it's very easy to proc healbane on their whole team just playing him normanlly.
@@Napstablooky also ult gives a 60% healing debuff anyways. SO its not needed to begin with.
It has to do with how long his ult tics.
it makes me unnecessarily happy to see Ivy in S teir and not a soul in the comments bashing that. she (according to the dead stats site) is one of the least played heros and i ADORE her kit. stone statueing a cocky haze ult will never not make me grin like an idiot. all the jokes about how hot she is aside, genuinely one of the best characters and people are SLEEPING on her
I think that Paradox’s rail gun kills people in team fights, especially late game, because of the ability to team focus them.
Yea that stun feels so annoying to be hit by! It also slows down casts like infernus ult if hit at the right time
I genuinely would put haze in S-Tier. just got out of a game where we won our lane against haze 4-0 with a 3k souls lead and she still outfarmed everyone by the end with a whopping 72k souls. She is a farming monster. Not only that, but she was pretty much impossible to kill unless we had our entire team ready at all times. Teamfights were almost impossible if she was alive. We had curse, slowing hex, decay, metal skin, etc etc and yet even when we peeled for our strongest player (infernus) we had a hard time killing her. I feel like it's incredibly easy to perform very well with her. We lost the game very closely in the end with about a 3k souls difference between both teams.
But I also thought to myself that maybe Haze isn't super strong but rather the fact that team compositions are random that you really can't counterpick against anyone. Our team had little big damage dealers such as haze, making it hard to take her down because our damage output just wasn't enough. I also think if we had someone like Mo & Krill it would've made fighting against her much easier with his ult.
I wonder if they'll add a drafting mode sometime during the playtest. They might save it for a fully fledged ranked mode though.
As a Mo and Krill main, I agree that Haze should be S-Tier but Haze is my food. Prolly the best counter to Haze.
No. Haze is ult made
@@kamrenwilliams2103 haze is ult made if you build around her ult, her kit is extremely strong for early aggression against other squishes. Her literal only counter is just either farming under tower or playing a tank.
Finally someone else pointing out how ridiculously strong she is. There really isn't any suppressing haze because due to her 2 she can stealth farm lanes. You have to commit a ton to suppressing her and once she gets 'Unstoppable' gg any hard counters like Mo&Krill against her. Rate of fire ridicuously powers up her ulti's dmg~ all on-hits apply~ AND there is a way to proc things like bullet resist shredder or using hunter's aura to reduce your B.armor. She can duration extend past your metal skins, she can cooldown enhance it to about 41 secs I think? Haze was my first character when i played the game. I main her and infernus and her counterplay compared to infernus is night and day.
you are plywoodleague mmr thats why you would do so
Mo and Krill are so goated. I hate when little slippery characters get away on 1 hp. Doesnt happen when i ult them and my whole team demolishes them
I feel you...why i play shiv... minute i see that arrow telling me they are low im diving to them.
As a yam onetrick after you get to 3 T4 items you cant really counter Yamato with items anymore. Soul rebirth prevents her from getting countered as your counters go on CD and she can insta ult after she gets up.
It's kinda weird how nobody mentions Vindicta's ult being among the most broken thing in this game - it's a lnog range shot that kills you at half-health, then rewards her with 3 times the souls, which means she's basically always ahead of you, even if you have more farm or kills
I think they will adjust the heavy souls gain, I thought I mentioned that but maybe I forgot
I completely agree about Mo and Krill. I tried him out and now I'm gonna main him. His gun was the first thing I noted, + with an early headshot booster it goes crazy and the enemies are always being denied.
I think it would be interesting to do a solo que tier list as strong heroes like Dynamo and Mo&Krill lose a lot of their power due to the lack of coordination.
Gun kelvin is a recent development and it brings him back to broken tier. Lystic been spamming it perma
Completely bonkers. His gun has some of the highest early game Dps and so getting ahead which is easy with a hero that has such a good kit means his bubble becomes a mo and Krill ult basically
Yea I saw that. Gun kelvin is in a tier by himself. I saw MikaelS try him out once and he dropped 20 kills without even knowing how he works.
being honest all of Kelvin's ability (except the grenade) feel like an ultimate, all of them are insanely powerful or impactful
Can someone please invite in this game
@@onomatopoeia5540 sure man what's your steam?
Paradox is such a fun kit but god I wish I had some better nuke potential or solo potential. I feel like without a teammate to capitalize on a swap it’s hard to really do damage.
Yeah I think thats why paradox doesnt have the highest win rate! But really good players can take advantage of the swap
bebop S tier all you needa do for him is stack spirit and press 4 to carry the game
His double bomb is way more powerful than beam, cos it’s like seven ult one knockdown and you get swatted out the sky
@@Darkdray123his ulti is no skill with the recent buff. Double bomb requires actually getting a hook
@@grockburten Or getting close... Which is really fkn easy to do in this game.
@@grockburten that’s true but it’s also really dependent on where you team fight, any sort of closed area and you just hover in the air doing nothing
just get debuff remover and bebop is useless
Infernus: A
Infernus players: D
They'd rather sack a game over taking a win.
😂
I think you said "Mcginnis" wrong
I'm sorry I just get my shit kicked in and need to farm so much to feel like I can do anything. I swear I'm trying I'm just ass.
@@Shackhabit build the "Godmode Infernus" build. its a super crazy good build. it has around 7 favorites.
Real man infernus players either carry or do nothing
Counterpoint to the Seven Ult Build: I've been running it a lot and think it brings HUGE crowd control potential. Reach makes stun and ult better, and in the late game, a ult-focused build makes it extremely punishing to stay in a team fight. You can kind of give your team free pushes every team fight if the other team doesn't play for range/easy stuns
In every game I get bullied by Shiv, he always launches one combo on me and im dead in 5 seconds
For anyone who just cares about seeing the tier list and not listening to the whole video are the ones who contradict this list so hard. Every hero in this game is busted and almost every item in the shop is busted so just don’t feed the other team and you will have fun :) great video and I support this list heavy.
agreed on pocket. i actually think he's better than m&k/ivy as well. i think pocket is the best laner in the game tbh. easy harass, good weapon, can dodge stuns/punches, can run people down, amazing ganker, etc.
Seven Support stun build is crazy strong and you really dont need that many souls to come online. You just need echo shard and then you can eventually get duration, reach, cooldown as the game progresses. Even if you are behind you still get a ton of value.
Yeah ive faced the echo shard seven a few times, its actually crazy opressive. I saw a melee version of it, just punching the stunned targets lmao
Haze not being in S++ tier is a travesty. Doesn't matter how you stomp her, if you let her get 6,200 souls you lose. She gets unstoppable and your counters for her go right out the window. Her ult has a short cooldown, long duration, HUGE radius, procs from a ton of items like ricochet, hunter aura, toxic bullets, bullet shred+ tesla rounds etc PLUS increasing her fire rate DOES increase her dmg dealt of her ultimate~ by insane levels. There are alot of prob of balancing in the game right now but Haze is a prime offender.
Metal Skin + Decay + Melee Spam
Cant you stun her ult?
@@niersu Yeah but usually they carry Unstoppable which prevents stuns
Warpstone *blink* you're outta there :)
@@bha1959 she's invisible and picks when she wants to fight. your advice is trash
After some more testing, I'll publish my warden build. Fixes all those problems. Probably wont catch on as people crutch on his cage too much.
paradox's ult also gives her 100% spirit lifesteal during the swap. this isn't too impactful during the later stages of the game where everyone has antiheal and you get stomped if you're caught anyways, but it gives paradox a lot of playmaking and dueling potential in the early to midgame
Bebop is always #1, the infinite scaling on bomb is so insane, basically the Veigar of Deadlock, over 1k each bomb, double bomb is hilarious + reverb. People finally buying shift/remover kills the fun though :(
Bebop has to be s tier. He’s just so strong.
He’s really strong against bad players!
Saw a turret spirit mcginnis build. It isnt like it annihilates you, but god damn seeing like 5-6 turrets that are all locked onto you along with enemies attacking you can shred your health
I remember seeing such a large amount of turrets that I thought it was some sort of bug. But then I uh, moved away from them, and they weren't a problem at all
I feel it was a little crazy to nerf Seven's ult already. His 3rd ability hits harder late game and I find myself ignoring the ult for the most part when playing against. Build around stamina and control to hold and out dps people in a 1v 1 / 2
I can see the value in zoning, but you really have to pick the spot well or be high enough to not be interacted with. Otherwise he gets shredded with the drop in bullet resist.
Still a fav character to play, but weird nerf imo.
Mostly posting so someone can clarify the value that needed to be dropped from him in the patch (seemed like because of a low skill floor he was deemed Great)
3 build is ten times better than 4 build
A good way to counteract people shredding the ult with bullet damage is to prepop return fire before ulting. It basically makes it pretty impossible to out dps it with bullet damage if you are of equal level with the opponent.
I still definitely think building lightning gun is better than building ult, but return fire is a nice way to increase the value you can get out of the ult.
Also as of the patch yesterday it gives like 12 spirit power so its a win-win :)
Glad to hear you say Mcginnis is a pubstomper but weak overall. My noob brain aligned with good players feels good
I think Lash is stronger than B, it's just the tank and healing meta doesn't allow him to do his job well. And the targets he can burst down could burst him down just as quickly, fly away, or heal off his whole combo in a matter of seconds. It's the atmosphere we're in.
This is spot on
But thats the point of this tier list, that in this meta he is not great because he struggles against tanks:)
McGinnis is my pick when I just want to go braindead with life steal and titanic magazine, aka Mauga from OW2
It's also so hilarious watching Seagull play as McGinnis Ult build. Some 500 items and then farm hard to get Divine Kevlar as early as possible. Lmao
Also as a lash main, sup stamina and you they recharge before you finish your combo. But he is feast or famine unless you know cheeky spots and are great with your Macro timings when ganking from height. But if youre in either mid lanes you can oppresds BOTH mid lanes by slamming from the top ropes after you push wave. Loads of fun doing 400 damage with no items
edit
also lash has underrated early game laning vs every person bewcausse flog is crazy and his weapon damage is pretty damn good too. Play around mid bridge, poke melees for confirms and cs their orbs for free. Get early weapon damage and heashot them down. I outlane vindictas constantly because she has -15% bullet damage off rip. Use that to your advantage!
Justice for Mcginnis
100%, even when shes behind shes still a problem
I still think she needs nerfing lol
Seagull would agree
Mama Mcginnis once her fire rate is fast enough just melts. Fleetfoot changed the way I play with her. (Damn just saw him put her at D lol) I mean.. she's slow and her wind up up is slow, but im an average player and im a menace. I feel she's atleast a B if the right player uses her, plus slowing bullets is the icing to her kit
Sending out a wall! Head Ass lol
aint nobody beating the satisfaction of Rambo Mcginnnis after getting lucky shot, titanic magazine and lifesteal
Grat talon can be an easy A if they make the ult gain +1 spirit when his ult make an assist (not how many asist) but if hebmake assist
Paradox is an underrated character hard to learn and master. In the future when people learn her she’ll be op
I love Paradox, it can do a LOT of damage but it has no escape and makes you depend a lot on your team. I think it has a VERY good line phase. My current mains are Lady Geist, Dinamo and Yamatoe!
Wraith must buy the shadow weave for kills in late. It saves your tp and actually gives cool burst stats for killing those isolated targets
They McGinnis slander is crazy, but I agree with everything else so far. I can believe you that at higher levels she falls off in viability, but I do feel like she offers a whole lot.
i think pocket is gonna stay in S tier for a while off his ult alone. sustainability is a must in any MOBA with insane damage and with pocket's ult negating a chunk of that heal (especially since people go leech late game) it will be a terrible match for tank builds
Good point. I've pretty much only been playing Pocket and can say he feels overpowered right now, despite his barrage damage amp per stack getting lowered by 1% twice. I hope they only tweak his numbers and don't change anything about his mechanics, because he's ridiculously fun to play! What are your thoughts?
Dude I swear to god. Talon is for sure A tier. He is extremely hard to play impactfully but he is insanely good idk. If a person knows how to play Talon it is a nightmare for opponents.
Vindicta is just the better Talon.
justice for mcginnis and geist
17:20 For balance pocket, 10 sec for being useless, 15 to be good enough, and the current ult are kinda broken since we can do more. xd
but they can balance the duration and dmg in the future.
love the notes u gave to every hero. i learned a lot. GJ
As a Warden main, I couldn't agree more. I mean, he has so many small issues that sum up and make him a B tier.
depending on what you have, it might be impossible to face a mo and krill in the lining stage cuz it has everything, disarm, heal and damage reduction so yeah
Build Lady Geist with health/defense and spirit lifesteal on Vitality, some basic weapon item upgrades and then go all out spirit damage and upgrade cooldown and reach on the Q. I promise you wont be disappointed. It makes lady geist very impactful in team fights and just all around much better than the weapon 1v1 build.
finally someone who understands the hero :) just carried a game we were badly loosing, like 10k behind on souls minute 20, cos when Lady gets spirit armor and spirit lifesteal and a little bit of spirit power enemies cant push the core since all the creeps are dead to 1-3 spam from miles away. And then when you get mystic reverb, unbound spirit and all the goodies you just kill everything. Finished the game when we pushed weakend core and they killed everyone bar me, who soloed last 50% hp while literally being targeted by their whole team for 10 seconds.
@@danilapeinovic3570 heck yeah mane
@@danilapeinovic3570 heck yeah mane
McGinnis definitely deserves to be higher than C tier dude. Unless they have unstoppable, she can stop Bebop, Haze, Seven, and Dynamo ult instantly with her wall stun. That alone is high value, she shuts down powerful ults almost immediately if they can land the wall. On top of her heal drone scaling in AoE radius and pumping respectable healing, she can turn an entire team into a firing line to melt any objective with the right build. You’re severely underrating her, she’s not S tier by any means, but I’d say she’s mid A.
Sevens only value is his stun. He’s extremely easy to deny in lane from over clearing with his 3 and 1 if he uses them every other wave off cooldown. Ult sucks, 1 is low damage and easy to avoid, 3 is just better Tesla bullets and weaker Infernus 3. He’s terrible
No shot Lday Geist is C. She can output so much dmg from so far, hitting so many heroes at the same time.
If you play spirit, her ult and her 2 are if you get jumped.
No ones talking about viscous and how his abilities have literally no counter to them besides buying an item. You cant even hide behind cover. Its so oppressive. Jonas is the only person ive hard talk about that and still he is underselling him.
I didnt undersell him I explained how you have to be really good to do it right. The tier list is supposed to cover multiple skill tiers
@@AverageJonas while I agree with you some what, maybe I just feel like he doesn't take as much skill because I'm in a higher mmr. I feel like his abilities aren't that hard to hit. His survivability is off the charts and he can literally just counter silence buy buying it himself. I applaud you for shining some light on him but I think he's so slept on. He can get fed so fast but ultimately you are right that mo can shut him down really fast. Viscous is a monster in early lane phase against almost all the heroes. Not to mention his cube is literally a get out of jail free card for SO many situations and he can even use it on a team mate with bad positioning.
@@AverageJonas "because I'm in a higher mmr" I could see how that sounds. I didn't mean higher than you just much higher than average so my understanding of using characters like viscous is higher. I don't even feel like his skill shots are even "skill" shots.
That makes sense, my only criticisms on your tier list was the viscous and lash placement. I feel like if this was specifically a high mmr tier list you woulda put them higher.
Thanks dude !!! Insane tier list.
As a McGinnis main...
Yeah...
I sill love to play her though
I have been playing a lot of mcginness and I agree. She is good but she gets caught out extremely easily. I hope they buff her guns ease of use in the future. It's good fully spun up but when people hear you prerevving they just leave. 2 seconds rev up time is a little long. Also her kit gives you bonuses for staying still but staying still is death in this game.
these videos are great so much valuable info. Thank you!
I'm pretty sure that healbane doesn't work with pocket ult, since the dot won't proc any item effects ( would probably be way too op w/ mystic slow on the whole team for 20+ seconds)
source: dirty pocket main
Considering it's spirit damage and seemingly on paper would work, I think they should make it more apparent that these items don't work in that case.
Does mystic exposure also proc?
Yeah I didnt know but you are right!
Slice and dice Shiv build in particular is definitely S tier. He's damn near unkillable and will straight up 1vX the other team.
Knife builds and gun builds are noticeably worse after most recent nerfs.
Bebop is my main. Glad to know hes still high up there.
yamato analysis is very helpful, will try the hero now thanks
Love the content and the switch to something that has the potential to give you content and make you happy for years to come. But why on earth if your face in the middle of the tier list? Are you in the game now too? Valve’s reward for leaving Riot?
it does not even block the tier list?
@@thestashout4854 so it still could have moved such that it we could see all the heroes and the full tier list.
wraith is 100% A tier at least, absolutely insane you have seven in a higher tier than wraith
Wraith Ult is simply just not very good. Tons of other heroes have a stun on their base abilities, and most of the time short stun is all you need to melt someone. Her Ult is just overkill for something that most teams can already do intermittently throughout the game.
That is completely cap. Wraith ult is an aoe stun she also has a teleport with some attack speed buff and huge burst with cards especially early game. She wins lane consistenly and scales better than almost all other character'. You have to be low MMR bro to think that @@yesiam7481
@@yesiam7481 She is more than just her ult though... When she gets her weapon damage going she can melt through other heroes in a matter of seconds
@@roodiger Oh her gun DPS is great; Its at the greater picture that she just doesn't provide the team with any utility, no generic area-denial bomb on her 1 bc she has her throwing cards, just a basic immobilizing stun on her ult. The same reason Geist is so low, their kits are selfish. They both do high damage, and thats about it. Theres plenty of characters than can do just as much damage, and also be more disruptive/supportive in a team fight.
@@yesiam7481 Wraith is strong throughout the entire game, she scales better than 99% of hereos. She has an AoE ult, a get out jail free card with her teleport and burst with her cards. The only characters that can put out more sustained damage is Haze. Her ult is an aoe stun on a hyper carry. She is easily a top tier character. Stuns are objectively the strongest cc in the game and hers will aoe. Its essentially a Dynamo ult on a hyper carry.
Lady geist got a buff and still she feels underpowered. Honestly I think she needs a small ability rework
The problem i have with her is she has no utility besides dmg, not that useful when behind, at least she has a good waveclear with her bomb
She lacks mobility imo
@@jaxteller5974just buy mobility items.
Her 4 itself is hard to balance. Sometimes you just don't want to shoot Geist at all, just because of the pressure of her potentially swapping and insta-killing you
She doesn't have a way to engage for favorable 1v1s so you just end up poking until someone walks into you or you land a huge grenade in a teamfight.
Hey I have a question about double bomb bebop. I LOVE Bebop and have played so many games on him, both gun build and bomb build. The main problem I have with the bomb build tho is that if I get echo shard I normally don’t get spirit glyph because I feel like the window to use both after hook is really hard. Do you run both active items in the build? I really feel like spirit glyph is a must for bebop because most characters like pocket and viscous can use their self peel ability and get rid of bomb damage
I give hazes 1 ult. Then i build Metal skin or reflect depending on the hero i am. Metal skin is also just VERY good against gun builds in general. e.g. Mcginnis, shiv gun build, vindicta, wraith.
Could you Kelvin ult your own patreon/guardian to freeze it/save it? Instead of using it in an offensive manner
Do you think it’s good that they have tanks doing insane dps, shouldn’t they make it so you can shred them somehow with different builds
I hope more % based dmg items like toxic bullets and decay would help!
Viscous is deffinetly S tier, most complete character in the game
GunGinnis fuels me, though.
McGinnis is a pub stomp. And shes the only hero i know that can solo mid boss with 4 turrets. I still think her turrets are overtuned. They do alot of damage... Have chuncky health. Very hard to play against depending on the hero.
i do like this, monthly tierlist is nice
Yeah I feel like its a nice way for people to keep up!!
ivy ult can't selfcast urn anymore (orrrr i've just been playing while too tired and getting my timing wrong...)
You can. Was solo running urn last night
She can’t anymore, I tried and I definitely don’t think it’s possible anymore
@@Flaminglump01 maybe I also was just getting the timing wrong. Idk I’ll have to try it again later today
Personally, late game lady guist is nye unstoppable. back line daggers and pots. i single handedly win games on her all the time just because of how much damage i do. very few people can out burst me and 1v1's are a joke. as soon as you get level 3 in skill 1 and 3, with escalating exposure, its basically over as long as your team can hold their own and dont over extend.
Lady Geist's grenade going through walls and cover is very frustrating to deal with
Ngl I forget it can do that sometimes because most games don't have that,as a Lady Geist player I will use that more rather than lining up to go around the cover.
I might not be high mmr yet, but im constantly top fraging with talon using the spirit arrow build. Also hitting 16m/s is too good. Gotta land your arrows though. Using rain of arrows is a trap
loved the video keep it up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey Jonas! Can you make a video about tips how to play against all heroes? 😅 Some counters, items etc :P Also Talon is S+ tier ♥
Yeah I can try that!
Haze mains rise up
If you'd have segmented the character rankings I'd subscribe
I watched 12 mans on the weekend and McGinnis was first banned every time
A tank that deal a lot of damage, has a lot of CC and is hard to kill, what could go wrong ?
it's probably weird, but i've been using mcginnis with early punch build cus it works really well with her wall.
Melee items work surprisingly well early to mid game on alot of heroes actually!
when is the full release? i need a ranked game mode
Every hero being OP is so true
Agree on the pocket placement. He needs comms but agree
matchmaking feels so bad
i've had like 3 players in my last 2 games go like 1 and 17, its horrible
Typically when there's a player doing really badly on one team, the same goes for the other team. That's my experience, at least.
@@abudgie6909 Wish that was the case but some of my matches have been so lop sided bc some idiot doesnt know how to play
@Fluskar one time my duo went 3-19 haha
Kelvin is 100% s tier. He just wins.
We all know Jonas tryna keep his boy bebop op but don't worry he gonna get nerfed
glad to see my boy morris at the top 😊
I hate mo n krill with a passion
Grey Talon is at least A, theres been games where the enemy team is just carried by him and my teammates never focus him.
Definitely depends on the MMR you're in. I rarely see Talons in my games, and when I do, he's getting stomped cause everyone knows his build.
Also M/K's gun does too much damage. He can get just a high velocity mag and out dps Greytalon while he's in the sky in laning phase.
LET'S GO TIER LIST
How are you going to bring infernus down for being countered by items when Haze gets countered by metal skin?
Good point! However hazes ult lasts twice as long as metal skin (and durstion scales with spirit) so its not necessarily just a free win
Haze doesn't get countered by metal skin. Her ult build gets silencer. Even if she doesn't have silencer yet, you'll still take half your health bar before you can even react
@@ArkbladeIXi see your point but pretty sure you dont get silenced with metal skin!
@@ArkbladeIX haze most definitely gets countered by metal skin as silencer doesn’t stop item usage nor dashes. So you can metal skin and get o it of her aoe by the time it runs out.
Can we get a character gun tier list
if knockdown wasn’t a thing vindicta is an easy S tier
Maybe I am too low elo but abrams never feels that strong or oppressive. I play primarily Haze and Lash and Infernus.
now that i have seen game of thrones, u are jamie lannister for sure(jonas u better reply)