I had the FM3 originally but upgraded to the Axe-Fx 3 because I got tired of playing block Tetris to fit everything I wanted into a single FM3 preset. With firmware updates there were some welcome CPU usage reductions on the FM3 so now I feel it does standard guitar fx chains really well, just isn't ideal for that "do it all in a single preset" way of working. The FM9 is the sweet spot product in Fractal's lineup where you could buy that and it's all you need. For me at least the Axe-Fx 3 is overkill most of the time, but it's nice to have those options and be the first to try the latest developments in firmwares.
To roughly recreate what any Fractal unit is capable of (Wet/Dry - Wet/Dry) using analog hardware you would need 10k, a college degree in MIDI, a roadie with a box truck and a full head of hair to pull-out.
Love my FM3, I don't NEED anything more, but really want to upgrade to the flagship at some point just to mess with dual amps and have all the Fractal "tricks" integrated in one massive preset.
I have a regular MkII, and while it would be cool to have the Turbo, Fractal will almost immediately release something new to eclipse that. With Fractal, you need to be happy with what you have, because you can drive yourself crazy trying to keep up.
Man, we really need a video for beginners explaining simply the nature of digital setups like this, starting from square one and assuming no prior knowledge. How it works, what are the options, how many different things you can combine. I'd donate to a gofundme if you really want, to make it happen.
Cool Crazy! Haha. FM3, FM9 Turbo, AX3, AX3 Turbo, FC-6, FC-12, 3 EV-1s, 2 EV-2s Best gear purchase of my life! This is what I dreamed about when I purchased the Roland GP100 when it was first released. It was fun but not even close! : ) Cheers
@@LeonTodd totally, we are running up the the high 80’s for the CPU but didn’t realise the shunts take up a few % so next step is to remove all the shunts we dont need. We sacrificed the HD reverbs but only us guitar nerds can tell it’s HD 😆 and to have the whole band get a consistent sound is worth it 🤘😆🤘
But wait, wait! The AXE FX III Turbo ++ Mk VII will be releasing soon! I'm so glad I sold my AXE FX III Mk 1 for almost what I paid for it. It would be worth almost as much as a used Boss Metal Zone now.
I've never owned a Fractal before but just ordered a Axe fx 2 XL + on reverb, My reasoning is that the Axe 3 has been out for a while and I figured I'd just wait for the next incanation before I drop a boat load of money lol.. I hope it holds all the Hype, I'm pretty excited even though it's not the 3.. Love your Videos, I love the Cat too..
Master Shredder & King Of The Axe. You remind me of the Michael Schenker song, "Watch the Attack of the mad axeman" Oh I have recently purchased the Turbo, it is awesome!
so, its a year after you uploaded this, Leon. Question: it's September-2024; would you buy a current Fractal product today, or do you see new hardware coming "soon"? Given the Mark II, and Turbo versions that seem to follow after new hardware is introduced, timing the purchase gets more challenging. I think I'm behind the release curve now. Given my purchase history, if I buy what I want now (Axe-FX III Mk II Turbo) I would not be surprised to see an Axe-FX IV within a year of my purchase. decisions, decisions. Meanwhile, I still have my Helix Floor!
There's some truth to people who say Fractal's business model relies on FOMO, but I look at it like a mobile phone. It's up to the consumer to hold out for as many years as they feel they're getting what they need before upgrading. Some people always think they need the newest iPhone. At the rate I'm still discovering new things in my Axe III mkI, I'm starting to think I can make it until the Axe 4.
the thing that would make me get a mkII or a turbo would be the preset space. i am the type of user that throws stuff i might like in and check them out later and so i have pretty much run out of room
Leon is there a way to save that combined Dyna-Cab block in to 1 user block like one could do using Cab-Lab? If not then for sure Fractal has to come up with a Dyna-Lab to be able to do it and save cpu 😉.
LEON!! Ive got Both the Axe Fx III Mark 1 and an FM3. I take the FM3 when I travel and love it but I noticed I run out of CPU really quickly and I have had to do some freezing of blocks so I dont get a slight lag when switching from scenes. In hindsight, I should have got the FM9 for traveling but you cant argue with the FM3 form factor. I look forward to the FM3 Turbo! lol (could be its saving grace eventually) Also, thank you Leon for all of your amazing videos. I can say that you have helped me exponentially in my Fractal endeavors.
Hey Leon, my biggest gripe playing live is using the pitch block to change tuning, I play exclusively 7 string, whole step drop to D is most common for the virtual capo, does the turbo have less wobble and lag or not that noticeable of a difference?
I wish I had a Turbo, but I got mine before the turbo was available. Constantly going near the processing limit, so now I've been piecing together a post-amp effects rack to offload some blocks from my axefx.
@@tdz69 LOL- clever. Try not to spill your latte when fumbling around making them there fancy presets. Nice thumbnail pic. Great use of the bokeh technique. FYI, I was just busting chops my friend. I bought a FM9 (Turbo too.) My only gripe is the antiquated UI. I say the same about myself. In reality though it is true. I offer up Ukraine as an example- as we opine over DSP in our modelers not being enough, they have real problems. Gratitude for what we have is important. "Now go get your shine box." th-cam.com/video/IeL8EYtbVw0/w-d-xo.html Namaste.
Love my MKII Turbo, Im mainly using it as the brain and Multi FX unit of my rack along with ny IR loader so i can go direct or use headphones, Dont really use the Amp blocks as much since i have a ADA MP1 & Marshall JMP1 pre amps in my raack in loops 3 & $ of the Axe FX wich i also use as my back up for my Preampsor if i need or want something i cant get out of the ADA or Marshall. Mainly have a Marshall 9200 as my power amp via output 2 for that real tube amp feel and sound, but also use just the power section and cab/speaker of a Peavy Bandit 112 combo for when i want to use the full models from the Axe and not have my 9200 ad it color from output 1.
Turbo is just marketing, the difference is that the rpcoessore percentage of workign is lower to make the same effect working on axe FX III and II. Moreover you can upload more block with TURBO, but is someone in this group awre that the best rock wsa done in 80 and 90? Did we have any turbo with AXE FX II, it is a good unit and can definitely perform everything you need.
Right now I've got the Axe Fx 3 "Salt N' Vinager" edition...I started out with the "BBQ" version..(Great unit btw)..but now i'll just have to get the Turbo version.
My hearing must be messed up. All the IRs sound better in the IR player rather than the cab block (to me). There's some weird "nasalness" if I use the cab block. Dynacab doesn't seem to have this problem Must be my old man hearing or something else causing me to think so
Man, I worked in the IT industry and that axeFx must have some real big CPU power. Love that. ❤. I love that you could have a 3 piece blues rock Blue murder type band and the bass player and guitarists could be both using the axeFx going direct. That's too cool. If I were a touring act even at moderate size venues or small clubs and I toured a lot I would for sure do that. Too cool man. I would have cut off my left testicle for this tech when I started playing. 😂😂🤣😂 That DGT sounds so damn good. Love those pickups. Of course DGT played in John Cougars band . John is from my hometown here in Indiana. Seymour. He lives in Bloomington now though where Indiana University is. Sounds great brother. You're the king of AxeFx. ❤ Man, It is hotter than a Puerto Rican picnic here. 😂 Humid and 90 degrees. 32.2 Celsius 😂 Be well and safe kind sir. 🤘🤘
Not really- older technology really. One guy opened up the box and he was not impressed. That said, it is still the best SOUNDING modeler on the planet. I bought the FM9- not quite as powerful but still SOUNDS great.
I got an FM9 semi-recently. I sometimes think about trading up to the flagship AXE3 unit, but I still have a lot of learning to do. I dont know if youve ever made a video about how to record wet/dry and DI tracks with SPDIF but thats what Im stuck on at the moment.
Hey Leon I just ordered an axe fx 3 mark 2. Upgrading from an Atomic 6 to the fractal. Question, is the fractal better than the atomic? Honest question and opinion hehe. Thanks in advance!!
I'm still a bit new to Fractal, so bear with me :P. So the idea of connecting 2x guitars with bass with their own signal chain in one unit is very appealing. Now for every band member to be able to control their own rig in real time...is it possible? Can you connect multiple Foot controllers that each member controls?
@@LeonTodd Would it be as simple as assigning for instance Inp 1 chain to FC 1 and assigning each pedal to each foot control switches, then Inp 2 chain to FC 2 and assign those pedal's switches, etc?
Hi Leon, Does it possible on axe fx3 mark 1 to run: 2 guitarist with overdrive-amp sim-cab sim out through output 1&2 1 bass player splitted to 2 outputs, 1 for dirty overdrive-amp-cab going to output 3 and another for compressed clean DI to output 4 What aspects to consider before i run out processing power?
Hi, Leon! I'm getting a good deal on an Axe Fx II from a friend. Is it worth getting it in 2024 or should I save up for the Turbo? it will be my first Axe Fx.Just for the context, I'm an aspiring music producer just starting out with a home studio.
Axe-Fx has an extra set of stereo ins and outs plus AES for digital audio. Tone match block and slightly more instances of blocks (eg 4 drive blocks vs 3, 2 pitch, multidelay and plex blocks vs 1). Otherwise the sounds are the same and the FM9 can run dual amps, cabs and reverbs in ANY preset because of the way the cores are allocated.
Imagine If it had more horse power so you didn't have to drop anything could add full vocal fx chain and do a complex bass rig that's the dream but I doubt it happens anytime soon these guys want you to have to buy more units
I suppose the CPU power and RAM on an FX3 is hilariously under powered. It’s an old unit now and has a similar power to a 2010 average priced laptop. An iPhone 13/14 using the M1 chip would be 10x more powerful.
I wonder what sort of OS is running under the hood? I hope Linux, because my personal experience with Windows bloat and compiler issues with Visual Studio C++ is instructive, and all my scientific computing tools run WAY faster on Linux for some reason...
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How are you using your Fractal?
I had the FM3 originally but upgraded to the Axe-Fx 3 because I got tired of playing block Tetris to fit everything I wanted into a single FM3 preset. With firmware updates there were some welcome CPU usage reductions on the FM3 so now I feel it does standard guitar fx chains really well, just isn't ideal for that "do it all in a single preset" way of working.
The FM9 is the sweet spot product in Fractal's lineup where you could buy that and it's all you need. For me at least the Axe-Fx 3 is overkill most of the time, but it's nice to have those options and be the first to try the latest developments in firmwares.
@@kasakka yeah the FM9 is right in the goldilocks zone IMO
95% of time : virtual capo-amp-cab-(delay)-reverb
To roughly recreate what any Fractal unit is capable of
(Wet/Dry - Wet/Dry)
using analog hardware you would need 10k, a college degree in MIDI, a roadie with a box truck and a full head of hair to pull-out.
Love my FM3, I don't NEED anything more, but really want to upgrade to the flagship at some point just to mess with dual amps and have all the Fractal "tricks" integrated in one massive preset.
We learned in the 80s that adding the word Turbo to anything, makes it better.
Cue Turbo Lover synth effect
@@LeonTodd well now I have to buy one
word
Just wait until the Axe Fx IV Xtreme comes out!
@@poison7512 what about turbo extreme mark 2
I have a regular MkII, and while it would be cool to have the Turbo, Fractal will almost immediately release something new to eclipse that. With Fractal, you need to be happy with what you have, because you can drive yourself crazy trying to keep up.
The MK1 is over 5 years old now and it hangs in there with the turbo for what most players will need.
Luckily, it's pretty damn easy to be happy with what you have.
Our guitarists share the same Axe FX and even the bassist but there’s a delay between channel switching. Need to sort that in the Axe FX4!
Just the fact you can run two signal chains and run two separate guitars...is pretty dam amazing imo .
BYO mates :p
Man, we really need a video for beginners explaining simply the nature of digital setups like this, starting from square one and assuming no prior knowledge. How it works, what are the options, how many different things you can combine.
I'd donate to a gofundme if you really want, to make it happen.
I'm working on one at the moment, so if there's specific elements you'd like included let me know
Cool Crazy! Haha. FM3, FM9 Turbo, AX3, AX3 Turbo, FC-6, FC-12, 3 EV-1s, 2 EV-2s Best gear purchase of my life! This is what I dreamed about when I purchased the Roland GP100 when it was first released. It was fun but not even close! : ) Cheers
Got a gp100 recently and it's super fun. Fractal definitely feels like the final form though!
Leon has an incredible guitar channel. One of the few that I'll watch. He always gives great information and he's a great guy.
I massively appreciate that mate!
We have an Axe FX 3 mark 2 (not the turbo) We run 2 guitars and a bass player through it no problems. Keep things simple and it sounds epic. 🤘
That's awesome! Gotta love that a single unit can run the whole band.
@@LeonTodd totally, we are running up the the high 80’s for the CPU but didn’t realise the shunts take up a few % so next step is to remove all the shunts we dont need. We sacrificed the HD reverbs but only us guitar nerds can tell it’s HD 😆 and to have the whole band get a consistent sound is worth it 🤘😆🤘
@@andyreynolds5575 I feel they should rename the reverb quality from economy/high/ultra etc to great/awesome/ridiculous/seriously?
@11:30 that clean was gorgeous!
Definitely on my wish list as next amp modeler. Tube amps cost too much in maintenance.
Let’s hope for an axe fx iii with a built in power amp and a few preamp tubes lol I’d pay 3 grand for that or more if it’s fancier
But wait, wait! The AXE FX III Turbo ++ Mk VII will be releasing soon! I'm so glad I sold my AXE FX III Mk 1 for almost what I paid for it. It would be worth almost as much as a used Boss Metal Zone now.
I mean, if the two guitar setups were a bit more chill- like you did - this is a really ideal setup. SUPER easy setup, super great sound. Nice!
I've never owned a Fractal before but just ordered a Axe fx 2 XL + on reverb, My reasoning is that the Axe 3 has been out for a while and I figured I'd just wait for the next incanation before I drop a boat load of money lol.. I hope it holds all the Hype, I'm pretty excited even though it's not the 3.. Love your Videos, I love the Cat too..
Master Shredder & King Of The Axe. You remind me of the Michael Schenker song, "Watch the Attack of the mad axeman" Oh I have recently purchased the Turbo, it is awesome!
so, its a year after you uploaded this, Leon. Question: it's September-2024; would you buy a current Fractal product today, or do you see new hardware coming "soon"?
Given the Mark II, and Turbo versions that seem to follow after new hardware is introduced, timing the purchase gets more challenging. I think I'm behind the release curve now. Given my purchase history, if I buy what I want now (Axe-FX III Mk II Turbo) I would not be surprised to see an Axe-FX IV within a year of my purchase.
decisions, decisions.
Meanwhile, I still have my Helix Floor!
There's some truth to people who say Fractal's business model relies on FOMO, but I look at it like a mobile phone.
It's up to the consumer to hold out for as many years as they feel they're getting what they need before upgrading.
Some people always think they need the newest iPhone.
At the rate I'm still discovering new things in my Axe III mkI, I'm starting to think I can make it until the Axe 4.
making me feel like my FM3 is running Windows 98se 😄some ridiculous fx chains there, good stuff
I’d love to get one of these, I just always fear with fractal stuff it will be outdated in a year if they release something else.
My MK1 Axe-Fx III is 5 and a half years old now. If anything this demonstrates how well their hardware stacks up over time.
the thing that would make me get a mkII or a turbo would be the preset space. i am the type of user that throws stuff i might like in and check them out later and so i have pretty much run out of room
When Leon starts busting out the hoodies I know summer is coming for me 😂
"this dude looks cold...better crank my AC up!"
Leon is there a way to save that combined Dyna-Cab block in to 1 user block like one could do using Cab-Lab? If not then for sure Fractal has to come up with a Dyna-Lab to be able to do it and save cpu 😉.
Leon ... You show some newer blocks on your Fractal. Have you updated the 2023 blocks library again? If so .. were can we download it?
LEON!! Ive got Both the Axe Fx III Mark 1 and an FM3. I take the FM3 when I travel and love it but I noticed I run out of CPU really quickly and I have had to do some freezing of blocks so I dont get a slight lag when switching from scenes. In hindsight, I should have got the FM9 for traveling but you cant argue with the FM3 form factor. I look forward to the FM3 Turbo! lol (could be its saving grace eventually) Also, thank you Leon for all of your amazing videos. I can say that you have helped me exponentially in my Fractal endeavors.
I appreciate that mate!
Hey Leon, my biggest gripe playing live is using the pitch block to change tuning, I play exclusively 7 string, whole step drop to D is most common for the virtual capo, does the turbo have less wobble and lag or not that noticeable of a difference?
I wish I had a Turbo, but I got mine before the turbo was available. Constantly going near the processing limit, so now I've been piecing together a post-amp effects rack to offload some blocks from my axefx.
Nice middle class problem.
@@MOAB-UTeven better low class comment. Lol
@@tdz69 LOL- clever. Try not to spill your latte when fumbling around making them there fancy presets.
Nice thumbnail pic. Great use of the bokeh technique.
FYI, I was just busting chops my friend. I bought a FM9 (Turbo too.) My only gripe is the antiquated UI. I say the same about myself. In reality though it is true. I offer up Ukraine as an example- as we opine over DSP in our modelers not being enough, they have real problems. Gratitude for what we have is important. "Now go get your shine box." th-cam.com/video/IeL8EYtbVw0/w-d-xo.html
Namaste.
You make me feel bad for leaving the turbo (and everything else) at home tonight and doing the gig with a Mini Maton and a Yamaha TDR30... 🙂
I see you saved the best sound for the ending. That sound has some chunk. :)
Absolute chungus
You are the man, Leon!
Love my MKII Turbo, Im mainly using it as the brain and Multi FX unit of my rack along with ny IR loader so i can go direct or use headphones, Dont really use the Amp blocks as much since i have a ADA MP1 & Marshall JMP1 pre amps in my raack in loops 3 & $ of the Axe FX wich i also use as my back up for my Preampsor if i need or want something i cant get out of the ADA or Marshall. Mainly have a Marshall 9200 as my power amp via output 2 for that real tube amp feel and sound, but also use just the power section and cab/speaker of a Peavy Bandit 112 combo for when i want to use the full models from the Axe and not have my 9200 ad it color from output 1.
advanced user
Turbo is just marketing, the difference is that the rpcoessore percentage of workign is lower to make the same effect working on axe FX III and II. Moreover you can upload more block with TURBO, but is someone in this group awre that the best rock wsa done in 80 and 90? Did we have any turbo with AXE FX II, it is a good unit and can definitely perform everything you need.
Right now I've got the Axe Fx 3 "Salt N' Vinager" edition...I started out with the "BBQ" version..(Great unit btw)..but now i'll just have to get the Turbo version.
Salt, vinegar and chicken salt!
Something I’ve wondered but haven’t seen anyone demo or mention.. does the delay bleed into your next channel change?
You can set it up to do spillover
geez louise. insane indeed! sticking with the mkII for now 😂. (psa 2 arrived yesterday 😊). congratulations on the acquisition!!!
🐇🐇
My hearing must be messed up. All the IRs sound better in the IR player rather than the cab block (to me). There's some weird "nasalness" if I use the cab block.
Dynacab doesn't seem to have this problem
Must be my old man hearing or something else causing me to think so
I just wonder if one day dynacabs could be ported to the fm3. Seeing the cpu usage on the mk1, I think that will be fractal edit dépendant.
Got me a turbo two days ago thanks Leon ❤
Congrats!!!
Wow- first time I’ve heard the IR player.
I can really hear a nice difference-
I like it a lot I think.
Ok...being able to do bass and TWO guitars all at the same time is kinda nuts...lol
Man, I worked in the IT industry and that axeFx must have some real big CPU power. Love that. ❤. I love that you could have a 3 piece blues rock Blue murder type band and the bass player and guitarists could be both using the axeFx going direct. That's too cool. If I were a touring act even at moderate size venues or small clubs and I toured a lot I would for sure do that. Too cool man.
I would have cut off my left testicle for this tech when I started playing. 😂😂🤣😂
That DGT sounds so damn good. Love those pickups. Of course DGT played in John Cougars band . John is from my hometown here in Indiana. Seymour. He lives in Bloomington now though where Indiana University is.
Sounds great brother. You're the king of AxeFx. ❤
Man, It is hotter than a Puerto Rican picnic here. 😂 Humid and 90 degrees. 32.2 Celsius 😂
Be well and safe kind sir. 🤘🤘
Not really- older technology really. One guy opened up the box and he was not impressed. That said, it is still the best SOUNDING modeler on the planet. I bought the FM9- not quite as powerful but still SOUNDS great.
I got an FM9 semi-recently. I sometimes think about trading up to the flagship AXE3 unit, but I still have a lot of learning to do. I dont know if youve ever made a video about how to record wet/dry and DI tracks with SPDIF but thats what Im stuck on at the moment.
SPDIF is 2 channels, so place a mixer at the end of the chain and pan the wet L and dry R
Hey Leon I just ordered an axe fx 3 mark 2. Upgrading from an Atomic 6 to the fractal. Question, is the fractal better than the atomic? Honest question and opinion hehe. Thanks in advance!!
Different league! Congrats mate
I'm still a bit new to Fractal, so bear with me :P. So the idea of connecting 2x guitars with bass with their own signal chain in one unit is very appealing. Now for every band member to be able to control their own rig in real time...is it possible? Can you connect multiple Foot controllers that each member controls?
You'd need to do it with multiple chained fc controllers or midi controllers, but it is possible.
@@LeonTodd Would it be as simple as assigning for instance Inp 1 chain to FC 1 and assigning each pedal to each foot control switches, then Inp 2 chain to FC 2 and assign those pedal's switches, etc?
Can you use the Axe Edit III software with Focusrite interface or do you have to use fractals hardware?
You need the hardware, the editor just reflects the status of the Axe-Fx
Very interesting guitarskills !
Many thanks!!
Hi Leon,
Does it possible on axe fx3 mark 1 to run:
2 guitarist with overdrive-amp sim-cab sim out through output 1&2
1 bass player splitted to 2 outputs, 1 for dirty overdrive-amp-cab going to output 3 and another for compressed clean DI to output 4
What aspects to consider before i run out processing power?
You can only run 2 simultaneous amp blocks so the bass chain would need to be tweaked
13:36 -> final word is you need about 10% CPU for proper grunt. Roger that.
My standard III is staying put till the IV comes out...
Hi, Leon! I'm getting a good deal on an Axe Fx II from a friend. Is it worth getting it in 2024 or should I save up for the Turbo? it will be my first Axe Fx.Just for the context, I'm an aspiring music producer just starting out with a home studio.
The II is a fantastic unit. The III is considerably more powerful and quicker to dial in IMO
@@LeonTodd many thanks for replying on an old video. Cheers man!
9:34 so cool ! great demo !
Cheers!
Hello Todd ! I have the standard AXE FX3, how can I do to turn it TURBO...? what are the steps to turn it TURBO ?
It's a different piece of hardware.
Does the FM 9 have the same grunt as the afx3. Love all your videos
Grunt? They sound the exact same.
yes
so question thta i just done see anywhere, main diferences between FM9 and Axe Fx? what can i do with one that i can NOT do with the other? thanks
Axe-Fx has an extra set of stereo ins and outs plus AES for digital audio. Tone match block and slightly more instances of blocks (eg 4 drive blocks vs 3, 2 pitch, multidelay and plex blocks vs 1). Otherwise the sounds are the same and the FM9 can run dual amps, cabs and reverbs in ANY preset because of the way the cores are allocated.
Imagine If it had more horse power so you didn't have to drop anything could add full vocal fx chain and do a complex bass rig that's the dream but I doubt it happens anytime soon these guys want you to have to buy more units
Would love to see if the turbo can handle one of every block
I just tested this and one of every block type comes in at 84% CPU
@@LeonTodd Missed it by 4%... Uh-oh, I can feel a Turbo-Plus coming on!!
If it's worth doing, it's worth over doing ~ Leon Todd 😂😂😂
Is Leon running a Mac or PC???
Mac Studio
I'm assuming you are sharing the Turbo Power Preset....soon...
Boom - axechange.fractalaudio.com/detail.php?preset=10345
@@LeonToddDid you ever post the 3 amp gapless preset from one of your other recent videos?
Axe 3 mk2, and criminally underutilize it, oh well!
I suppose the CPU power and RAM on an FX3 is hilariously under powered. It’s an old unit now and has a similar power to a 2010 average priced laptop. An iPhone 13/14 using the M1 chip would be 10x more powerful.
true an old TI chip actually.
trying to save up just so i can buy an axe fx 3 turbo
I wonder what sort of OS is running under the hood? I hope Linux, because my personal experience with Windows bloat and compiler issues with Visual Studio C++ is instructive, and all my scientific computing tools run WAY faster on Linux for some reason...
$5000 well U would not want to gig it. And still not come close to a valve amp with a kick ass pedal
I notice my MKII won't import the Turbo preset. Times out & get a popup, does that sound correct behaviour @LeonTodd ... Jinxy
where did you get his preset? axe exchange?
@@izzyizzm8761 yep, I love analysing @LeonTodd 's , very generous