DDD is so absurd to me. You see the giant hammer and must think "that has to hit like a truck" but it often feels like you just hit someone with a weighted sandbag. A lot of his hammer moves don't KO
Jigglypuff, Ganondorf and Zelda all being bottom 3 for 2 consecutive games (Brawl and Smash 4) will forever be the funniest and saddest thing to ever happen in competitive Smash
@@lukesinfield8626 inb4 Sakurai gives him a TotK re-skin...but still keeps him as a heavy Falcon-clone. Sheeesh, I hope that isn't the case but with Sakurai being who he is, I would not be surprised if he kept him as such.
jigglypuff is a character who represent the low tier characters she is the worst character in brawl ultimate and smash 4 there's only two when she was the good character smash 64 míd tier and melee s tier
6:20 Something to specify about Jr. is that if the game registers that you hit both the koopa and the cart, Smash 4 treats it as a koopa hit, so he takes more damage. In Smash Ultimate, this priority was reversed.
When i was playing in a smash 4 group at my university, i was once complemented as "the best zelda player they had ever played against". It seems like a big complement till you realize, i was the only zelda player they had played against.
One thing I liked about Smash 4 Ganondorf is that his up smash's endlag is done before the attack animation finishes. I remember catching people off guard with a forward tilt after up smashing back in the For Glory days.
As a day 1 3ds Pac-Main, I never dropped the character. I remember playing late nights in for glory against japanese players, and somehow winning. Sometimes by clutch. When cloud and bayo dropped, I had mewtwo as my second main. Difficult times indeed. Now on Ultimate, Pac-Man is hella good and fun. Only thing I miss is his up tilt and down throw to dash combo
as someone who mains falco in every game he’s in, smash 4 was a necessary punishment for 6 years of chain grabs but we been so back since ultimate came out
Jigglypuff was intentionally made bad in Smash 4. Nerfing an already bad character in Brawl, giving it the worst custom moves in the game, and refusing to give Puff any buffs in the numerous updates despite being unanimously considered the worst character in the game.
It's crazy how even when Ganon got giga buffed in Ultimate, he's still the worst character. But Ultimates low tiers are actually viable unlike other games in the series. Why is the game with the most characters the most balanced?
Patches and a more nuanced roster. And people say melee doesn’t need a patch when it’s meta game remained stagnant for over fifteen years of space furries when project M arguably had patches as well. Melee fans just like to complain about the later smash titles and ignore project M was a thing and also did patches in the right direction
Fun fact about Kirby in Smash 4, his exhale is BUSTED. If your opponent is at a high % and you exhale them they can be shot really far away. Give it a try on Temple, pop the CPU to 999%, and exhale from the left platform.
New Temple Jump challenge: Who can get exhaled by Kirby at like 100% from the bottom platform and reach either of the ledges? (Well, in Smash 4 anyway.)
As a lifelong Bowser and Ganondorf main, I feel that the devs looked at Brawl, said, "We kinda screwed both of them," decided to fix one, and turned Bowser into Melee Ganondorf from then on and left Ganondorf as Melee Bowser.
You didn't really mention the most important nerf to falco, the fact that his laser doesn't autocancel anymore. This autocancel is what made it so good in melee and brawl, and taking that away is the single biggest nerf to him in this game, but you didn't even mention it. Also his fair was changed in brawl, not smash 4
As someone who mains Falco in Smash 4, there's a few things that weren't mentioned that also contribute to him being awful. His jab is incredibly easy to SDI out of and avoid the finisher. Some characters like Peach could even directly punish him for landing the jab so it was often not even a button worth going for. Phantasm flat out just doesn't have a hitbox on like the last entire half of the move. You're not gonna pull any sort of Ult-esque Phantasm into aerial type stuff. Usmash was changed from Brawl to 4 from a single hit ala Fox to a multihit and it had issues connecting a lot of the time. The 2nd hit was the one with all the launching power and opponents could just...fall out from the first hit. Usmash got buffed 3 separate times in the game. Blaster was mentioned but man was it complete crap. Against some characters like Sonic, you could only afford to even land the move at max range. Any closer and even after the hit, they had enough time to run up and punish you because there was so much endlag. At the end of the day, I still mained Falco because my Brawl main wasn't in the game (Wolf) and he felt like one of the absolute few characters in Smash 4 who could attempt edgeguarding and have it actually be worth it. Granted, part of that is because Falco was so bad that he kinda had to go offstage to get kills but I really wasn't a fan of how insanely easy recovering in Smash 4 was. Ledgeguarding (not edgeguarding) is just such a boring way to play the game. I did like how Blaster at least forced some characters like Samus to play more mindfully since they couldn't charge moves for free and dtilt has a nice disjoint on it and even Reflector was an okay, long ranged poke. I'm not even a fan of Ult Falco since there's a lot of stuff from 4 and Melee Falco that I miss. Reflector is mostly only good now for reflecting, fsmash lost some range since he doesn't lunge forward as much, I think dtilt lost some range too. There's also just more options for characters who can edgeguard in Ult.
I think Sakurai doesn't want to radically overhaul characters and lose what they were initially. Still though, if they had to keep Ganon, just give the old moveset to Black Shadow so it's at least still in there but like you said that would end up eating into dev time and they don't want that.
I think the biggest problem with Doctor Mario is that people try to play him as Mario... When he's _not._ His combos and recovery are completely different.
Doc is actually good in 4, but it is very rare for players to know his optimal combo routes in every matchup. His ability to kill mid/lightweights at 80 off a grab is actually insane in that game, and he also has Rage Jab2 Upb against most of the cast as well. Smash 4 more generally rewards oos play a lot more than Ult comparatively speaking, which is the biggest reason Doc is more viable in 4 overall.
@@Dhampire1976 I wouldn't say he was awful at anything other than a top tournament level. He definitely wasn't good, but he had back-air, which was enough to make him better than 30% of the cast on its own.
@@Dhampire1976 I mean, I said what I said. Bair is legitimately stupid as fuck in Smash 4, the rest of him just sucks ass. If he didn't have bair, I would absolutely agree with you, but I'd call him a mid-low tier instead of a true low tier for that one move alone.
I honestly think Smash 4's low tiers are very underrated and a whole lot of them feel better to play than Brawl's low tiers. Can't say the same for King Dedede unfortunately, he's downright abysmal.
S4's low tiers are actually fantastic as someone who played a low mid tier (Little Mac) the bad characters of S4 were not bad at all and honestly comparable to Ult's low tiers imo
They are better to play. All of them can still combo unlike brawl which every attack could be performed after the little hit stun an attack sent a character flying.
@@MarioKartChamp710 IMO, Pac-Man's grab is better than Villager. Both suck, but at least Pac-Man's has some out of shield uses and beats spotdodge. Villager's grab has the framedata of a tether with none of the benefits, and his most reliable kill option is stuck behind it.
Have you seen his grab hitbox in smash 4 ? It's abysmal, cannot beat spotdodge because it has some inactive frames, and doesn't combo nor kill contrary to villager
@@alexandre526 I have, I played Smash 4 competitively for years. And the inactive frames still allow it to beat spot dodge, since the spotdodge's ending lag is larger than the gap between the grab's active frames. And yeah, it doesn't combo or kill, which honestly makes it better. Because unlike Villager, you're not forced to use it as your most reliable combo and kill tool. And unlike Villager, it isn't slow enough to be reactable.
Villager's can combo and back throw has pretty good kill power iirc (wasn't it actually second strongest behind ness'?) so despite being slow it was decent. I used to play villager online in 4 and I'd occasionally whip it out, and to be fair its lagginess resulted in a fair number of misses, but lloid rocket made a good setup for it.
@@gusteen3292 I’m a Lucas main too, but it’s use as zair is what saves it from being one of the worst grabs in the game. It’s maybe the shortest tether with tether startup. The pivot grab is good but eh. His back and up throw are good enough but aren’t enough to make up for the slow start up, especially as someone who needs to get in close. Fthrow and dthrow are kinda useless. In all no one’s scared to throw up their shield against him and it’s useless at early percents.
Oh wow, I bet you weren't expecting this one..... 15:36 Ganondorf had some potential except for the fact that he's the slowest character in the game and the worst recovery. Players did see really minor success with him but nothing to write home about.
Ditto with Zelda, she had some really strong combos, kill confirms, tech, and a very broken OoS option. She saw some decent players throughout the years but never enough to be a blip on the radar, and when Cloud came out (her absolute WORST match-up in Smash 4) she basically vanished.
this was a good video, i think the music choice is a bit weird and offputting, and the pace of interesting visual content could be improved, but the script was very informative and well paced. great work sir i enjoyed
SSB4 low/bottom tiers is a definite step-up over the previous game's low/bottom tiers, through the combination of them having more tools and the top tiers not quite being as polarizing as previous games. However, if you are talking about vanilla SSB4, back when the game first came out, then that is absolutely not the case. The low/bottom tiers of vanilla SSB4 were absolute struggle characters, and vanilla SSB4 Zelda, Charizard, and Mii Swordfighter were 3 of the worst characters to ever exist in Smash. Vanilla SSB4 Zelda was likely the worst version of the character in the series, as she was essentially a toned down Brawl Zelda with very little of the combo game she would have in the final version. Similarly, vanilla SSB4 Shulk was one of the most hilariously dysfunctional characters to ever exist in Smash. Vanilla SSB4 was a very cursed time that not many people today remember about.
@@Mike-di3mo i agree, if we count the miis then i think that mii swordfighter is the worst, if we don't count them then i think zelda is the worst character in the game
Here’s an interesting query: How would the low tiers have been if they had their custom moves? Would they have risen out of the bottom or would they have stayed where they are?
You seem like a hater saying only SOME puff had alot of potential like most low tiers, and you could see that at the end of the games lifespan sp puff is like bottom 5 or 10
They buffed Ganon a lot in updates what go look at his patch notes and come back they changed and fixed so much the thing with S4 patches is they actually made SUBSTANTIAL changes to characters when buffing/nerfing them, not like Ult where you'll see DK's ftilt do more knockback and they think that will fix his issues. Ganon got a makeover compared to how he was on release and it kinda irks me when people talk about S4 when they don't know S4 history because there's so many things that just get overlooked.
I think something in Kirby's favor in this game specifically was the fact that his down b can destroy shields since it hits the shield twice, the air hitbox and the landing one. And having your shield broken against Kirby is pretty much a death sentence because hammer flip is so obscenely strong I do wish they kept that feature in for Ultimate, would actually give stone more of a threat value, but at the very least it's significantly stronger in ultimate than it is in any other smash game.
Surprised ya didn't mention the massive landing lag increase B-Air got on Kirby. That in combination with the huge hitbox reduction is what basically decimated Kirby's neutral game from Brawl. Kirby could no longer really play an air game and now had to mostly stay grounded but this was before Ultimate allowed you to cancel your dash with all your actions and was before F-Tilt got a major knockback and endlag buff and Dash Attack...actually became useable. So Kirby found himself just having to waddle around a lot. He could finesse certain fast fallers like Sheik, Captain Falcon, and Fox but outside of matchups like that his combos were surprisingly subpar. I honestly to this day feel launch Ultimate Kirby was better than final SSB4 Kirby just because the mechanical changes and some direct changes finally gave Kirby a semblance of a neutral game. Being forced to just walk up and power shield with Kirby when his range already got nerfed was just pain.
As one of the 12 Dedede fanatics in Smash 4, I honestly think he was underrated in the meta. Not a good character, but better than bottom tier status. Changing Waddle Dees to Gordos was definitely a buff and made him one of the best ledgetrap characters in the game. Most of KOs would come from stuff like ledge gordo with down smash or from soft neutral air to up air being a 50/50. He had the fastest fall speed in the game, which combined with multiple jumps made floating and landing in neutral extremely important to his gameplay. His downfall had little to do with Gordo being reflectable because you shouldn't throw that in neutral in the first place. It was the horrendous horizontal aerial speed that made approaching zoners a chore.
@@ArbitraryOutcome I'm not aware of that, but I think Dedede's meta might have been more developed in Japan. People were shocked to see Zaki from Japan beat MkLeo's Cloud, but honestly Cloud is not a bad top tier matchup for Dedede since he doesn't significantly exploit his weaknesses.
Here are the characters shown in this video: F tier: 45th: pac man (newcommer) 46th: falco (huge drop from brawl) 47th: bowser jr (newcommer) 48th: dr mario (big drop from melee) 49th: kirby (sized drop from brawl) 50th: wii fit trainer (newcommer) G tier: 51th: king dedede (huge drop from brawl) 52nd: ganondorf (very small rise from brawl) 53rd: zelda (same exact placement as brawl) Worst in the game: jiglypuff (small drop from her already low placement in brawl)
zelda's phantom does have one advantage over ultimate it was a way better defensive tool since the armor could block attacks it worked more as a terrible get off me or even anti projectile vs ultimate making it a top 10 baiting tool
It's honestly laughable that they didn't give any small buffs for Dedede and Puff, yet other low tiers such as Ganon or Falco received some buffs. It's as if even the developers themselves hated Dedede and Puff in Smash 4. Also, a fun fact: in the first tier list for Smash 4, Puff did not take the last place. Zelda landed on the last place instead, but in the second tier list, she did rise slightly, causing Puff to be stuck in the last place following Zelda's slight rise.
@@Mike-di3mo If you look at the current Smash 4 tier list, you'll see that Puff is ranked dead last. Plus, even despite her improved results since 2018, she did not rise at all as Smash 4's competitive scene faded out after Ultimate's release, and many people still consider Puff to be much worse than Ganon and Zelda.
@@DeluxeGamer705 you know the last tier list was made I 2017 so that doesn't count, and plus even on the smash wiki it says puff is one of the worst characters and people that think she is the worst just don't know better
@@Mike-di3mo It was still too late in the competitive scene in Smash 4, as 2018 was the time when the competitive scene would fade quickly just after Ultimate's release. Plus, Ganon in Brawl was still ranked dead last in the last tier list in 2013, and yet Ganon players managed to achieve better results than Puff and Zelda, and even in the modern tier list from 2022 (named as the "Post-Brawl community tier list"), Ganon was still ranked at the last place. Also, the way how Puff was never buffed in the updates and the fact that newer top tiers such as Bayo and Cloud being added in the DLC gave Puff even more trouble eventually caused her to receive a contender for the worst character in the game, and she eventually fell into the last place on the second tier list and other bottom-tiers (notably Zelda and Ganon) received several buffs. Plus, their buffs resulted in their results slowly improving (Ganon was in fact surprisingly popular for a bottom-tier, and Zelda's buffs caused her results to slowly improve even though she was far less popular than Ganon), causing them to rise up on the tier list, causing Puff to fall down.
You could try PM/P+ Kirby then, despite being ranked as a low tier in the tier lists, that Kirby iteration is legit the 2nd best version of Kirby in all Smash games. His KO power is absurd (even better than the already good KO power from Brawl & 64), his ground speed is insanely high compared to all his official iterations, his aerial drift is similar to the 64 version, he has a second up-B that gives him a solid horizontal recovery, a new down-B that is a combo starter on low-mid percents, his aerials have lower endlag, etc.
awesome vid :)) i always love remembering the older smash games also totally unrelated but I’ve been looking for the name of the song that plays during the bowser jr section pleeeease tell me the name of the song 😭😭 (5:10 ish)
Correct me if Im wrong, but I heard Jigglypuff was never changed during any balance patch in Smash 4. That could also be another reason she's the worst character
She wasn’t. There was even an old website for smash 4 counting the days when the game was first released with its first official patch up until the final patch. It was called #buffthepuff
Im a Doc main 😂 been playing him since Melee. Over the years, I find myself saying, "Why don't I just play Mario".....turns out my Mario is cheeks 😂 the combos are not too different, but I'm so used to Doc combos it makes my Mario suffer 😂
I fucking hate how then nerfed my girl. Puff's fall from melee might be intentional, but I still hate it. She was my favorite Pokémon, and she was so good in melee, then she just had to get RUINED. I'm much happier now that she's at least better in Ultimate (in my opinion) but she will never be the same in my eyes.
this is a great and very informative video, but you might want to try a little harder with your in game footage. Most of the character traits you tried to show either very clearly didn’t combo or kill, and inbetween those moments you would just sparsely hit the cpu. Showing tournament footage inbetween moments where you’re personally demonstrating characters capabilities would be nice, as well as actually comboing when you’re talking about character combos.
Mac has some really scary things. His grounded frame data and super armor are really difficult to challenge and punish impatience hard. He racks damage and kills extremely early and has reliable kill confirms. He sucks in the air of course but in the right hands he can be tough to deal with He’s a lower end mid tier
jigglypuff also had some terrible combo potential, she is really good in ult now at least, she has so many tools and amazing movement and a AMAZING combo game. she is only mid tier but mid is good in ultimate because the game is well balanced, she has a lot of good wininng matchups like minmin and fox and kazuya and corrin. etc. love puff in ult.
Honestly I remember the days little mac was an F tier then people realized how absolutely busted he is lol. He had a mechanic so busted they had to make an ultimate dlc character have it too
lol i won the only tournament i played in using bowser jr but it was a school one so like obvs none of us are super good players but i felt good doing it 😂
Not really. He hits hard and punishes players for reckless and bad approaches and deletes stocks in seconds for bad play. He’s bad but has some decent stuff in him
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
DDD is so absurd to me. You see the giant hammer and must think "that has to hit like a truck" but it often feels like you just hit someone with a weighted sandbag. A lot of his hammer moves don't KO
and the few that do were punishable, very punishable
Jigglypuff, Ganondorf and Zelda all being bottom 3 for 2 consecutive games (Brawl and Smash 4) will forever be the funniest and saddest thing to ever happen in competitive Smash
My poor boy, next game it has to be totk ganondorf im praying
@@lukesinfield8626 inb4 Sakurai gives him a TotK re-skin...but still keeps him as a heavy Falcon-clone.
Sheeesh, I hope that isn't the case but with Sakurai being who he is, I would not be surprised if he kept him as such.
ganon and zelda have been bottom 3 for not just 2, but 3 consecutive games
jigglypuff is a character who represent the low tier characters she is the worst character in brawl ultimate and smash 4 there's only two when she was the good character smash 64 míd tier and melee s tier
@@glauciarochelleis she bad in ultimate? i thought she was just mediocre
6:20 Something to specify about Jr. is that if the game registers that you hit both the koopa and the cart, Smash 4 treats it as a koopa hit, so he takes more damage. In Smash Ultimate, this priority was reversed.
why doc's cape is not a recovery option
@@glauciarochelle This comment isn't even about Doc what the heck.
@@lasercraft32They're out of line, but they're right
When i was playing in a smash 4 group at my university, i was once complemented as "the best zelda player they had ever played against". It seems like a big complement till you realize, i was the only zelda player they had played against.
One thing I liked about Smash 4 Ganondorf is that his up smash's endlag is done before the attack animation finishes. I remember catching people off guard with a forward tilt after up smashing back in the For Glory days.
As a day 1 3ds Pac-Main, I never dropped the character. I remember playing late nights in for glory against japanese players, and somehow winning. Sometimes by clutch.
When cloud and bayo dropped, I had mewtwo as my second main. Difficult times indeed.
Now on Ultimate, Pac-Man is hella good and fun. Only thing I miss is his up tilt and down throw to dash combo
I miss his infinite z drop, so much fun just z dropping keys on hydrants all game
Same same same. A Pac-Main at release, I'd play a ton online and start every match as Pac, of course I had a secondary, my old main Pikachu.
as someone who mains falco in every game he’s in, smash 4 was a necessary punishment for 6 years of chain grabs but we been so back since ultimate came out
Even then, falco still had good combos, so he wasn’t that bad and his recovery has been improved since he could side b first then up b like fox
Jigglypuff was intentionally made bad in Smash 4. Nerfing an already bad character in Brawl, giving it the worst custom moves in the game, and refusing to give Puff any buffs in the numerous updates despite being unanimously considered the worst character in the game.
All because Hbox clowned on Reggie in the Ryu promotion event
Puff isn't even that bad, she's one of the worst characters but not the a sound worst
@@Mike-di3mo She is the worst in Smash 4
@@SonicTheCutehog nah she's ONE of the worst but zelda is the worst stop lying to yourself
@@Mike-di3mo You're lying to yourself. It's Puff.
It's crazy how even when Ganon got giga buffed in Ultimate, he's still the worst character. But Ultimates low tiers are actually viable unlike other games in the series. Why is the game with the most characters the most balanced?
Patches and a more nuanced roster. And people say melee doesn’t need a patch when it’s meta game remained stagnant for over fifteen years of space furries when project M arguably had patches as well. Melee fans just like to complain about the later smash titles and ignore project M was a thing and also did patches in the right direction
Fun fact about Kirby in Smash 4, his exhale is BUSTED. If your opponent is at a high % and you exhale them they can be shot really far away. Give it a try on Temple, pop the CPU to 999%, and exhale from the left platform.
It won’t be fun for the 30% of the people that deal with that lol
@@jalilfrancois7700 Don't get me wrong, it's super niche and not a real threat, but it IS funny!
@@crystalkirby rip the person that gets hit by that though lol
New Temple Jump challenge: Who can get exhaled by Kirby at like 100% from the bottom platform and reach either of the ledges? (Well, in Smash 4 anyway.)
As a lifelong Bowser and Ganondorf main, I feel that the devs looked at Brawl, said, "We kinda screwed both of them," decided to fix one, and turned Bowser into Melee Ganondorf from then on and left Ganondorf as Melee Bowser.
Smash 4 never gets credit for having the most unpredictable and unique newcomers. Rosalina? Villager? Little Mac? WII FIT?BAYO? C’mon yo
Smash Ultimate: “Hold my beer.”
You didn't really mention the most important nerf to falco, the fact that his laser doesn't autocancel anymore. This autocancel is what made it so good in melee and brawl, and taking that away is the single biggest nerf to him in this game, but you didn't even mention it.
Also his fair was changed in brawl, not smash 4
15:23 to make matters worse, in one patch they nerfed his air speed wich made him Slower in the air than in Brawl.
As someone who mains Falco in Smash 4, there's a few things that weren't mentioned that also contribute to him being awful. His jab is incredibly easy to SDI out of and avoid the finisher. Some characters like Peach could even directly punish him for landing the jab so it was often not even a button worth going for. Phantasm flat out just doesn't have a hitbox on like the last entire half of the move. You're not gonna pull any sort of Ult-esque Phantasm into aerial type stuff. Usmash was changed from Brawl to 4 from a single hit ala Fox to a multihit and it had issues connecting a lot of the time. The 2nd hit was the one with all the launching power and opponents could just...fall out from the first hit. Usmash got buffed 3 separate times in the game. Blaster was mentioned but man was it complete crap. Against some characters like Sonic, you could only afford to even land the move at max range. Any closer and even after the hit, they had enough time to run up and punish you because there was so much endlag.
At the end of the day, I still mained Falco because my Brawl main wasn't in the game (Wolf) and he felt like one of the absolute few characters in Smash 4 who could attempt edgeguarding and have it actually be worth it. Granted, part of that is because Falco was so bad that he kinda had to go offstage to get kills but I really wasn't a fan of how insanely easy recovering in Smash 4 was. Ledgeguarding (not edgeguarding) is just such a boring way to play the game. I did like how Blaster at least forced some characters like Samus to play more mindfully since they couldn't charge moves for free and dtilt has a nice disjoint on it and even Reflector was an okay, long ranged poke. I'm not even a fan of Ult Falco since there's a lot of stuff from 4 and Melee Falco that I miss. Reflector is mostly only good now for reflecting, fsmash lost some range since he doesn't lunge forward as much, I think dtilt lost some range too. There's also just more options for characters who can edgeguard in Ult.
i Just hate how Ganondorf always has to be bad because Sakurai can't be given enough time to make an actual moveset for him
I think Sakurai doesn't want to radically overhaul characters and lose what they were initially. Still though, if they had to keep Ganon, just give the old moveset to Black Shadow so it's at least still in there but like you said that would end up eating into dev time and they don't want that.
@@BigLadStudios exactly
black Shadow could also give him the opportunirty to be asked to make to make a F-Zero game
He was pretty good in melee
I think the biggest problem with Doctor Mario is that people try to play him as Mario... When he's _not._ His combos and recovery are completely different.
Doc is actually good in 4, but it is very rare for players to know his optimal combo routes in every matchup. His ability to kill mid/lightweights at 80 off a grab is actually insane in that game, and he also has Rage Jab2 Upb against most of the cast as well.
Smash 4 more generally rewards oos play a lot more than Ult comparatively speaking, which is the biggest reason Doc is more viable in 4 overall.
I forgot how ass Falco was 💀
Also Kirby did pretty well vs Fox and Sheik imo. You just had to know how to get in there and box with them. Fun times.
Falco was kind of okay
@@jesuspernia8031no he was awful lmao. An online scrub killer, but that was it
@@Dhampire1976 I wouldn't say he was awful at anything other than a top tournament level. He definitely wasn't good, but he had back-air, which was enough to make him better than 30% of the cast on its own.
@@blazefactor6849 please listen to what you said without laughing lmao
@@Dhampire1976 I mean, I said what I said. Bair is legitimately stupid as fuck in Smash 4, the rest of him just sucks ass.
If he didn't have bair, I would absolutely agree with you, but I'd call him a mid-low tier instead of a true low tier for that one move alone.
I got into the tourney scene with Smash 4 Jigglypuff
I didn't do so well, but hey I got used to the tourney scene
who in the world would put PAC in smash 4 anywhere that wasnt mid tier?
I really like Smash 4 puff, but the Cloud matchup is downright ungrateful
talking about how bad pacman is in smash 4 really puts in perspective just how huge his changes in ultimate were
The highest placement in Smash Zelda ever had was D tier lol
And that’s her most recent one too
I absolutely love this channel and getting to know some of the lesser talked about aspects in smash
Funny how Falco is mid in air, and he’s literally a BIRD
I honestly think Smash 4's low tiers are very underrated and a whole lot of them feel better to play than Brawl's low tiers.
Can't say the same for King Dedede unfortunately, he's downright abysmal.
S4's low tiers are actually fantastic as someone who played a low mid tier (Little Mac)
the bad characters of S4 were not bad at all and honestly comparable to Ult's low tiers imo
Smash 4 was for the most part pretty well balanced. Well, as long as you ignore DLC.
@babulbi what's with DLC ruining the meta in 4 and now Ult 😭
@@bemiatto67 It's like poetry, it rhymes.
They are better to play. All of them can still combo unlike brawl which every attack could be performed after the little hit stun an attack sent a character flying.
"Pac-Man has the worst grab in the game." Meanwhile there's Villager with the frame 15 grab.
He does, though. In my opinion, at least
@@MarioKartChamp710 IMO, Pac-Man's grab is better than Villager. Both suck, but at least Pac-Man's has some out of shield uses and beats spotdodge. Villager's grab has the framedata of a tether with none of the benefits, and his most reliable kill option is stuck behind it.
Have you seen his grab hitbox in smash 4 ? It's abysmal, cannot beat spotdodge because it has some inactive frames, and doesn't combo nor kill contrary to villager
@@alexandre526 I have, I played Smash 4 competitively for years. And the inactive frames still allow it to beat spot dodge, since the spotdodge's ending lag is larger than the gap between the grab's active frames.
And yeah, it doesn't combo or kill, which honestly makes it better. Because unlike Villager, you're not forced to use it as your most reliable combo and kill tool. And unlike Villager, it isn't slow enough to be reactable.
Villager's can combo and back throw has pretty good kill power iirc (wasn't it actually second strongest behind ness'?) so despite being slow it was decent. I used to play villager online in 4 and I'd occasionally whip it out, and to be fair its lagginess resulted in a fair number of misses, but lloid rocket made a good setup for it.
Future Smash games, plural. You keep saying that, are you referring to the beta for the new game Smash Receptacle, or just mods?
This mfs handmovements be getting me angry 😭
Remember when Bowser Jr was leaked and people were saying he is a clone of Diddy Kong? 😂
1:06 Literally Ultimate Lucas lol
As a Lucas Main his grab game isn't that bad
Have you seen his zair? That kinda makes up for the bad tether. Shits insane
@@gusteen3292 I’m a Lucas main too, but it’s use as zair is what saves it from being one of the worst grabs in the game. It’s maybe the shortest tether with tether startup. The pivot grab is good but eh. His back and up throw are good enough but aren’t enough to make up for the slow start up, especially as someone who needs to get in close. Fthrow and dthrow are kinda useless. In all no one’s scared to throw up their shield against him and it’s useless at early percents.
@@StarmenRock Yeah zair is insane but buddy has 0 shield options aside from sweet spot ftilt
@@StarmenRockZairs are not grabs
Oh wow, I bet you weren't expecting this one..... 15:36
Ganondorf had some potential except for the fact that he's the slowest character in the game and the worst recovery. Players did see really minor success with him but nothing to write home about.
Ditto with Zelda, she had some really strong combos, kill confirms, tech, and a very broken OoS option.
She saw some decent players throughout the years but never enough to be a blip on the radar, and when Cloud came out (her absolute WORST match-up in Smash 4) she basically vanished.
Oh hell yeah, OutRun 2 music.
I honestly forgot how awful Smash 4 Pac-Man's grab was, wow.
this was a good video, i think the music choice is a bit weird and offputting, and the pace of interesting visual content could be improved, but the script was very informative and well paced. great work sir i enjoyed
Kirby can beat a high tier hell I remember a Kirby beating Mario late in Smash 4.
Someone’s little brother playing Mario
@@Alonzone No it was a pro player playing the Mario.
@@Alonzoneman probably didn’t know the matchup.
I always enjoyed playing Dr Mario and Jigglypuff in smash 4, thank god me and my friends never bought the dlc, that wouldn’t have been fun
this game looks a lot more polished than i remember
I know she was terrible, but Smash 4 was where I got interested in playing Zelda.
SSB4 low/bottom tiers is a definite step-up over the previous game's low/bottom tiers, through the combination of them having more tools and the top tiers not quite being as polarizing as previous games.
However, if you are talking about vanilla SSB4, back when the game first came out, then that is absolutely not the case. The low/bottom tiers of vanilla SSB4 were absolute struggle characters, and vanilla SSB4 Zelda, Charizard, and Mii Swordfighter were 3 of the worst characters to ever exist in Smash. Vanilla SSB4 Zelda was likely the worst version of the character in the series, as she was essentially a toned down Brawl Zelda with very little of the combo game she would have in the final version.
Similarly, vanilla SSB4 Shulk was one of the most hilariously dysfunctional characters to ever exist in Smash.
Vanilla SSB4 was a very cursed time that not many people today remember about.
Jiglypuff not only she didn't recive a single buff in balance patches, but whit a fix of a glitch, she even got a tiny nerf
Puff isn't the worst characters in smash 4
@@Mike-di3mo i agree, if we count the miis then i think that mii swordfighter is the worst, if we don't count them then i think zelda is the worst character in the game
Here’s an interesting query: How would the low tiers have been if they had their custom moves? Would they have risen out of the bottom or would they have stayed where they are?
Most of them ironically have some of the worst Custom moves in the game, Zelda and Jigglypuff especially LOL
@@ZachHonestganon might’ve been a mid tier with that crazy down b
@@dicychopI’m not sure ganon would rise dramatically but for sure he’d no longer be bottom three
@@dicychop Don't forget his custom up b that KO'd super early and had super armor.
@@ZachHonesttbh I feel like some of puffs custom moves could help, there not all bad
I just looked at my calendar like that Harvey Birdman scene
I will say, Puff did have SOME potential in smash 4 with stuff like Sing Cancel and her timeout ability.
You seem like a hater saying only SOME puff had alot of potential like most low tiers, and you could see that at the end of the games lifespan sp puff is like bottom 5 or 10
How did Jigglypuff, Zelda, and Ganondorf remain bottom 3 for two games?
Puff and Zelda are bottom 5 in brawl not 3 and puff is like bottom 5 in 4 nit bottom 3
@@Mike-di3mo You have seen the tier list right?
@@stuffenjoyer6677 yeah and that tier list was made before puff got really good results in 2018 👁👄👁
@@Mike-di3moStill though
@@stuffenjoyer6677 know I'm just saying what most people say now
I was a brawl falco player and when i saw the nerfs falco got in this game, i was devistated
This was not a good time for many of us, huh?
Honest content production values have increased I see
My main is kinda falco and it hurts that he was low tier
13:23 what happened to Male Wii Fits thing above his head?
They buffed Ganon a lot in updates what
go look at his patch notes and come back they changed and fixed so much
the thing with S4 patches is they actually made SUBSTANTIAL changes to characters when buffing/nerfing them, not like Ult where you'll see DK's ftilt do more knockback and they think that will fix his issues. Ganon got a makeover compared to how he was on release and it kinda irks me when people talk about S4 when they don't know S4 history because there's so many things that just get overlooked.
0:04 pre patch bayo up smash lol - I killed bowser at 54 with it too.
I think something in Kirby's favor in this game specifically was the fact that his down b can destroy shields since it hits the shield twice, the air hitbox and the landing one. And having your shield broken against Kirby is pretty much a death sentence because hammer flip is so obscenely strong
I do wish they kept that feature in for Ultimate, would actually give stone more of a threat value, but at the very least it's significantly stronger in ultimate than it is in any other smash game.
Yo. I heard advance wars music in Dr. Mario’s section
Surprised ya didn't mention the massive landing lag increase B-Air got on Kirby. That in combination with the huge hitbox reduction is what basically decimated Kirby's neutral game from Brawl. Kirby could no longer really play an air game and now had to mostly stay grounded but this was before Ultimate allowed you to cancel your dash with all your actions and was before F-Tilt got a major knockback and endlag buff and Dash Attack...actually became useable. So Kirby found himself just having to waddle around a lot. He could finesse certain fast fallers like Sheik, Captain Falcon, and Fox but outside of matchups like that his combos were surprisingly subpar.
I honestly to this day feel launch Ultimate Kirby was better than final SSB4 Kirby just because the mechanical changes and some direct changes finally gave Kirby a semblance of a neutral game. Being forced to just walk up and power shield with Kirby when his range already got nerfed was just pain.
I love how Little Mac is just... out.
God man, looking back, Smash 4 is slow as hell compared to Ultimate
As one of the 12 Dedede fanatics in Smash 4, I honestly think he was underrated in the meta. Not a good character, but better than bottom tier status. Changing Waddle Dees to Gordos was definitely a buff and made him one of the best ledgetrap characters in the game. Most of KOs would come from stuff like ledge gordo with down smash or from soft neutral air to up air being a 50/50. He had the fastest fall speed in the game, which combined with multiple jumps made floating and landing in neutral extremely important to his gameplay. His downfall had little to do with Gordo being reflectable because you shouldn't throw that in neutral in the first place. It was the horrendous horizontal aerial speed that made approaching zoners a chore.
waddle dee>>>
I might be mistaken but didn't some Japanese tier lists actually place him in mid tier at one point?
@@ArbitraryOutcome I'm not aware of that, but I think Dedede's meta might have been more developed in Japan. People were shocked to see Zaki from Japan beat MkLeo's Cloud, but honestly Cloud is not a bad top tier matchup for Dedede since he doesn't significantly exploit his weaknesses.
Ult's competitive scene would lasted a lot longer if they kept doing balance patches
Here are the characters shown in this video:
F tier:
45th: pac man (newcommer)
46th: falco (huge drop from brawl)
47th: bowser jr (newcommer)
48th: dr mario (big drop from melee)
49th: kirby (sized drop from brawl)
50th: wii fit trainer (newcommer)
G tier:
51th: king dedede (huge drop from brawl)
52nd: ganondorf (very small rise from brawl)
53rd: zelda (same exact placement as brawl)
Worst in the game: jiglypuff (small drop from her already low placement in brawl)
How did triforce tier happen twice lol
3 times. It's in Ult too. Zelda n Ganondorf are ass.
@@dragnjames2190 But don't worry there will always be 300 broken Fire Emblem characters to balance it out
@@Adam_U Marth being mid in Ult makes up for the rest of them being busted. Minus Ike and Chrom lmao.
@@Adam_Uplease don't tell me you unironically think like this when Ike, Chrom, and Robin exist. cuz if you do, that would be a...
s-s-skill issue
@@Adam_Umost of the FE characters are mid tiers lol, only roy lucina and corin are high-top tier
I was just watching a Smash video, yeah the Smash 4 low tiers are better then Brawl's, but worse then 64's and Ultimate's.
Great video
Ultimate was my first ever smash game so i really appreciate these kinda of videos
zelda's phantom does have one advantage over ultimate it was a way better defensive tool since the armor could block attacks it worked more as a terrible get off me or even anti projectile vs ultimate making it a top 10 baiting tool
I've been a smash 4 puff main for years and she isn't as bad as people say imo. Simply don't face bayo and she can function.
Don't you mean cloud? I've seen plenty games of puff taking sets from bayo thats he it isn't the worst character
@@Mike-di3moI find the Bayo matchup harder. It's up to preference.
@@maybeheals oop ok I e seen most puffs say that cloud is the worst mu though
@@Mike-di3mo Imo all matchups depend on how you play the character.
It's honestly laughable that they didn't give any small buffs for Dedede and Puff, yet other low tiers such as Ganon or Falco received some buffs. It's as if even the developers themselves hated Dedede and Puff in Smash 4.
Also, a fun fact: in the first tier list for Smash 4, Puff did not take the last place. Zelda landed on the last place instead, but in the second tier list, she did rise slightly, causing Puff to be stuck in the last place following Zelda's slight rise.
Puff and dedede still aren't the worst characters in smash 4, it's Ganon and zelda
@@Mike-di3mo If you look at the current Smash 4 tier list, you'll see that Puff is ranked dead last. Plus, even despite her improved results since 2018, she did not rise at all as Smash 4's competitive scene faded out after Ultimate's release, and many people still consider Puff to be much worse than Ganon and Zelda.
@@DeluxeGamer705 you know the last tier list was made I 2017 so that doesn't count, and plus even on the smash wiki it says puff is one of the worst characters and people that think she is the worst just don't know better
@@Mike-di3mo It was still too late in the competitive scene in Smash 4, as 2018 was the time when the competitive scene would fade quickly just after Ultimate's release. Plus, Ganon in Brawl was still ranked dead last in the last tier list in 2013, and yet Ganon players managed to achieve better results than Puff and Zelda, and even in the modern tier list from 2022 (named as the "Post-Brawl community tier list"), Ganon was still ranked at the last place.
Also, the way how Puff was never buffed in the updates and the fact that newer top tiers such as Bayo and Cloud being added in the DLC gave Puff even more trouble eventually caused her to receive a contender for the worst character in the game, and she eventually fell into the last place on the second tier list and other bottom-tiers (notably Zelda and Ganon) received several buffs. Plus, their buffs resulted in their results slowly improving (Ganon was in fact surprisingly popular for a bottom-tier, and Zelda's buffs caused her results to slowly improve even though she was far less popular than Ganon), causing them to rise up on the tier list, causing Puff to fall down.
two of my most played characters in smash 4 were Falco (Falco was my go-to) and Puff, good times lol
Got to hand to Ultimate for fixing some of these characters. They just didn’t work in 4. I enjoy playing Bowser Jr in Ultimate.
Foward air being nerfed in kill power was sorta bot really a buff because weak fair was one of her only combo tools into rest.
Honestly there a lot of people who think puff was at least better than gannon.
I want one smash game (that isn't 64) where Kirby is a high tier character
I deserve it
It's funny that some of Kirby's copy abilities actually make him high tier. If he could access them in any match-up, he'd be very meta.
You could try PM/P+ Kirby then, despite being ranked as a low tier in the tier lists, that Kirby iteration is legit the 2nd best version of Kirby in all Smash games.
His KO power is absurd (even better than the already good KO power from Brawl & 64), his ground speed is insanely high compared to all his official iterations, his aerial drift is similar to the 64 version, he has a second up-B that gives him a solid horizontal recovery, a new down-B that is a combo starter on low-mid percents, his aerials have lower endlag, etc.
kirby in smash 4 is the second time he's a low tier character
Kirby is honestly not bad in ultimate, just watch jejajeja play
They can't catch a break.
I miss brawl dedede
awesome vid :)) i always love remembering the older smash games
also totally unrelated but I’ve been looking for the name of the song that plays during the bowser jr section pleeeease tell me the name of the song 😭😭 (5:10 ish)
Correct me if Im wrong, but I heard Jigglypuff was never changed during any balance patch in Smash 4. That could also be another reason she's the worst character
She wasn’t. There was even an old website for smash 4 counting the days when the game was first released with its first official patch up until the final patch. It was called #buffthepuff
Puff isn't the worst character in smash 4
When Honest post it just makes everyone day better!
Pac-Man did have sort of a late-meta renaissance, thanks to a player named Tea.
I'll never get 9ver how Tea somehow managed to beat multiple top Rosas in Smash 4 with PacMan
Im a Doc main 😂 been playing him since Melee. Over the years, I find myself saying, "Why don't I just play Mario".....turns out my Mario is cheeks 😂 the combos are not too different, but I'm so used to Doc combos it makes my Mario suffer 😂
why is this persons content so honest like he never says anything not honest
Is that fucking Sensei's theme from advance wars in the kirby section
It’s sad cuz I was a JR main in smash 4. And I loved playing as him.
Does anyone think Nintendo made characters unviable on purpose? If that’s the case, why even bother having the character?
I fucking hate how then nerfed my girl. Puff's fall from melee might be intentional, but I still hate it. She was my favorite Pokémon, and she was so good in melee, then she just had to get RUINED. I'm much happier now that she's at least better in Ultimate (in my opinion) but she will never be the same in my eyes.
this is a great and very informative video, but you might want to try a little harder with your in game footage. Most of the character traits you tried to show either very clearly didn’t combo or kill, and inbetween those moments you would just sparsely hit the cpu. Showing tournament footage inbetween moments where you’re personally demonstrating characters capabilities would be nice, as well as actually comboing when you’re talking about character combos.
Wait, isn't Little Mac bottom tier?
No, and honestly you can make an argument for mid tier
He's E tier
Mac has some really scary things. His grounded frame data and super armor are really difficult to challenge and punish impatience hard. He racks damage and kills extremely early and has reliable kill confirms. He sucks in the air of course but in the right hands he can be tough to deal with
He’s a lower end mid tier
Never understand why they nerfed kirby he wasnt even a top tier in brawl why the hell nerf him????
Falco and ganondorf can auto cancel their down airs but its hard to time
So is Kirbs 2nd smash low tier again.
Maybe ultimate can solve him something, right?
*Right?...*
It does kinda. He's mid tier in Ultimate (debatable).
@@djdrizzy9139he has good normals at least
Kirby's forward throw is the combo throw
Yeah. Wii Fit Trainer should've never happened.
I did in fact main jr and puff in sm4sh and I actually did a pretty good job holding my own
I remember Pac Man was complete trash, his grab was horrible, his down air never connected and his other aerials weak as hell
jigglypuff also had some terrible combo potential, she is really good in ult now at least, she has so many tools and amazing movement and a AMAZING combo game. she is only mid tier but mid is good in ultimate because the game is well balanced, she has a lot of good wininng matchups like minmin and fox and kazuya and corrin. etc. love puff in ult.
And Pound got a 2x hitstun multiplier now so it's a guaranteed combo starter
@@Adam_U not to mention down air, ohhhhhh down air my beloved, auto canceling after a shot hop down air mmmmm
Puff combo game was mid in smash 4 not bad and puff isnt even the worst character
@@Mike-di3mo source? what combo game does she have in smash 4? and she is arguably the worst yes some people including myself think she is the worst.
@@Mike-di3mo if you can think of 3 characters with a worse combo game then puff other then ganon and zelda let me know
Honestly I remember the days little mac was an F tier then people realized how absolutely busted he is lol. He had a mechanic so busted they had to make an ultimate dlc character have it too
lol i won the only tournament i played in using bowser jr but it was a school one so like obvs none of us are super good players but i felt good doing it 😂
I must have something severely wrong with me to have mained Ganondorf throughout all of this
i recognize u
Not really. He hits hard and punishes players for reckless and bad approaches and deletes stocks in seconds for bad play. He’s bad but has some decent stuff in him
Dedede actually the most busted character in the game because Zaki beat MkLeo's Cloud th-cam.com/video/q9ZMLS6ISVA/w-d-xo.html
Tr4sh 4, great times (not)
The mod was good tho.
Fun fact, Zelda has been a low tier in all of her appearances in smash Bros
As a low tier connoseur this makes me really appreciate ultimates balance
Falco was definitely much better than perceived.