Loved the video, BUUUUT as a Mewtwo player I will say there's a bit of misinformation here. Mainly Mewtwo having a up throw chain grab. He does have incredible combo strings off up throw such as DJC up air regrab, or the beautiful multi Fiar. He also has a pretty good tech chase at low % against just abour everyone with down throw, almost a Sheik level tech chase against Falcon and Falco. Also, Mewtwo doesn't get combed AS badly as people put it due to his air dodge making him practically invisible on the first frame. As for the tail hurtbox due to his amazing wavedash length, and getaway options, the only time you get hit in the tail is a bad tilt on the opponent typically this is only done by your opponent CCing your down tilts. Mewtwo is super misplaced atm, but he's coming up.
@@ZachHonestmakes sense, I completely forgot about Mewtwo having a chain grab in PM. Great video I like the new style and fantastic editing as always. Keep it up man
On top of all that m2 is really hard to shark due to his up b going so far so fast is forces opponents to either try and shark him and m2 just gets to plat or you wait for m2 to come down and try to cover their landing option. Either way m2 is a beast at saying f that noise to sharking. His tail does also have good disjoint so his sharking game in pretty good albeit doesn’t last long but can lead to an edge guard witch is his strong suit..
@@NightGhost1400 yes and no to the disjoint stuff all of his tail moves still have the hurtbox everywhere besides for the ball at the tip of his tail making it so you really can’t win neutral with it at low%, but a well spaced back air is amazing against every one that isn’t Marth or Sheik due to them having large quick moves to stop Mewtwo from going in. For the up b I think most of it is the opponent not knowing the matchup or just understanding Mewtwo. Most of the time it is unsafe to just teleport to stage even though the move only has 8 frames of landing lag. Thankfully though because he has a crazy double jump that can be extended to go even higher if you use bair at the apex of it Mewtwo can edge cancel on every stages (minus FD) platforms for mixups. Mewtwo has a lot of potential, but he’s so stupidly difficult I do see him as the next and possibly the last Yoshi with him falling right in between Pika and Samus.
@@sizzle5775 2nd worst is eliwood and worst is lyn. roys prf rapier makes him a tiny bit useful because it has 95 hit in a game where the accuracy sucks. his promotion makes him really good but he only gets it for like 2 chapters or something. eliwood is just roy but swords suck in his game and he still sucks when he promotes. lyn is the worst because swords suck in her game and her str is low and her defense is garbage. her con is also 5 so if you try giving her a better weapon her best stat is gone lol. theres so many spear enemies to 2 shot her and she can barely do damage to them.
Zelda was seen as a top 6 character in the early days of melee, she became a low tier just in the 8th tier list, and in pretty much most of the older tier lists she was a mid tier, so she had not only the largest fallof in melee but also one of the largest fallofs in smash
pretty ironic that PK Fire was so laggy in Melee when it's supposed to be spammed to rack up damage as well do combos out of PK Fire as Ness's Adventure trophy description
I feel like Ness is the worst in the game or bottom 2, just a gut feeling. Bowser, Kirby, and Zelda have some interesting stuff, but Ness's up and down smashes barely function as attacks, he has no range, and he has the worst set of specials ever. He straight up has nothing besides an okay set of aerials
My most underrated character (and my main since N64) has always been Link. I'm sure once you get to level of wavedashing and etc. he is probably worthless... but I love his moveset so much. I love in casual games setting up traps by doing his down+a aerial - will let Link spin in pretend "still stuck in hitstun" and just jam down *hard* and hit A. I caught so many people off guard with that over years, it's just so much fun. At least Young Link sees (or at least at some point saw, idk) some play as a counterpick (I think to Jigglypuff?). Worst part of being a long-time Link main... I can't ever grab anyone as other characters because of his hookshot grab and how I'm used to never being that close to other characters.
I mained Zelda when I played melee (not Sheik) and was so surprised to learn she was so bad on the the tier lists. She worked well enough against my friends.
not really. the editing to be honest is above average indeed but the script is just not really that informative, not offering much information or going in depth other than surface level stuff.
@@pickle24 what do you expect the video to be then?? I enjoyed it, maybe its fine that you personally understand the info in the video, but other people might be hearing this stuff for the first time, I find videos like this are good for people getting into the scene, thats how I personally got involved with games like Project M, because honest would cover it
I actually think that Kirby is better then Bowser in my opinion. Really the reason I think this are fairly simple where as bowser has to scrap which can be very stage dependent, Kirby doesn't have that problem or at least to the extent that Bowser does due to him mostly playing passively. His back air (literally his best arial) benefits in the fact that it can pseudo wall of pain people if the are new or don't space out there normals correctly and because of his multiple jumps he gets the option to mix-up his approach options in his game plan (double jump bair, use funky tilt into bair, weak smash attack into bair, ect). For his smash attacks while not as damaging and not having as much risk reward as with Bowser they are safer to throw out and are simple to combo into which let's him convert better and get damage fast although this doesn't really help him as he doesn't really have anyway to kill options until there at high %. Ultimately like you said it a matter of opinion it like fighting over the last piece of garbage in a trash bin lol its still going to be shit either way.
@@djdrizzy9139 you haven’t seen Ness and Zelda then. Kirby has no good matchups can’t combo more than up tilt into another move, while Ness and Zelda have a decent matchup against spacies, and have a pretty consistent combo game and kill setups. Obviously he is better than Bower though that’s not a crazy take
If Game and Watch had a proper shield and L Cancelled aerials, where would he fit on a tier list? Sorry if this question was already answered, but i was thinking about this today and I'm intrigued.
@@bkebradley I'm inclined to agree. I think the shield actually being a shield would make a decent difference, but very little else would. N-Air would benefit a bit from being L-cancellable as it could be a tremendous platform pressure tool, but I don't think B-Air or U-Air benefit nearly as much from actually being coded as aerials. Even with the improvements, GnW still has fundamental issues making it difficult for him to compete with the top half of the cast: he still has horrendous defensive options (his rolls and aerials OoS are trash), stubby normals, and only okay-ish frame data (iirc, I'm mostly thinking of his aerials here though).
Out of the below GW characters, I think the 3 most capable of rising tiers are mewtwo, roy and zelda. Solo zelda is obviously too bad to go up even a single spot, but utilizing her as a mid match counterpick for matchups that could possibly work could give her some more usage besides a last breath recovery option and the occasional funny kick kill. Mewtwo is honestly pretty unexplored and unpopular, I think he could easily go above GW if he had a larger playerbase. And roy is marth but worse, not only does that already give him some hope but zain has also demonstrated roy's potential before.
I think pichu can be pushed further his f smash is pretty nasty n the nair can do wonders he has some cool niche techs but yah he’s just a funny joke character to use to troll people obviously but that doesn’t mean u can’t train with em hard n take a W at tourney from someone who doesn’t know the matchup u just can’t expect to win a tourney if u solo main pocket main they can do work if u wanna win play pikachu but if u wanna laugh n take a personal win he is perfect for that just accepting you’ll take some Ls n get rocked at the start but with time u can get some funny clips that cheese is some of the funniest stuff in gaming history to me just doesn’t feel as funny in ult
It's funny that Ness was nerfed into the dirt along with Kirby because he was thought to be too strong in 64. He is currently the third worst character on the tier list
Fun fact with Roy, there have been several very high ranked players who have considered that he could work as a specific counter pick to puff and puff alone. I can't recall all of the intricacies of the logic behind it, but I think even mew2king considered him to counter hbox before he retired but decided it wouldn't be worth it. A common thing I have heard is that while he theoretically may be the amount of time and effort you would have to put in just for a relatively niche counter isn't worth it when you could be practicing another character with a wider matchup coverage.
I love reading these comments and being reminded that as much of a scrub as i am, most peoples competitive understanding starts with thinking wavedashing is "advanced"
my thoughts exactly, his combo and punish game is just too good to be low tier but all the little inconveniences just add up into a big con that weighs him down.@@Whurlpuul
Melee is officially the worst Smash game in history they literally did my favourite Nintendo characters of all time Kirby and bowser so dirty it’s literally unacceptable what the hell was Sakurai thinking
I never played Melee since I never had a Gamecube, but as a Ness main, Id probably die inside knowing that his up smash doesn’t kill until 500%, yes it’s THAT bad
@@ryanbates3319 yeah I feel like Brawl is so underrated to because most people like to talk about melee a lot which is why I prefer Brawl over Melee because there’s more content in it and it looks better graphically as well
@desmondkosmas3315 sadly i never had brawl even though I had a wii. Smash 4 was my first smash game and I currently play Ultimate now. But brawl seemed like a great game as well.
I think you're sleeping on some of Ness' coolest stuff. Double-jump cancel is a great movement tool, and while it may not have the armor that Yoshi's does, it lets him get in on characters with his aerials in unexpected timings/places. All of Ness's aerials but down-air are pretty good despite being stubby (except for Fair which is nice and disjointed) and he has creative edgeguards with Yo-Yo smashes or the tail of PK thunder. Not to mention Yo-Yo glitch and jacket tricks, which a good player can integrate and sneak out some wins against competent high-tiers. Admittedly not good enough to be out there winning majors, but I could see a good Ness player making folks reconsider his current place in the tier list
Mewtwo does not have reliable chain grabs on any of the cast, fox, falco and falcon included. He can regrab fox and falco at certain percents, but he doesn’t have a real chain grab
If there's anything Slippi era has proved with Low-Tiers, its that its better to have a decent way to take stocks than it is to have a crappy-but-not-as-crappy-as-other-low-tiers neutral. Ness, Roy, and Game and Watch have way better neutrals than Zelda, but Zelda isn't bodied so hard by other characters and has a much easier time killing and taking stocks. The same goes for Mewtwo, who is incredibly gimmicky but those gimmicks are way better than Roy's lame ass sword or Ness' wonky ass tech. I think those two low-tiers I mentioned are almost guaranteed to go up because getting tournament wins with them seems more feasible because they dont require an arm and a leg to take stock nor really oddly specific tech to win matches. Roy will always feel better to play than Mario, Zelda, Mewtwo, Pichu. That's a given. Until he can't kill at 230% without a read. Then he feels like he's one of the worst characters in the game because (SPOILERS) he actually is.
Not sure why people almost always compare Kirby to jigglypuff in tier discussions. They play nothing alike and the only things they have in common are that they are both pink balls with multiple jumps but the similarities end there.
I used to main both Ness and Roy, I would consistently win local tournaments with Ness, I wish I would advertise kept playing instead of moving onto other games all these years
It's been a long time since I've said this to somebody but you deserve a lot more subscribers. This editing is really, really nice and the content is engaging.
Don't get me wrong Zelda isn't going to win a major or isn't great, but honestly, I think she should go up a couple spots, at least where G&W is, she has her uses compared to the other low tiers, she's actually not bad against Ice Climbers for instance. Though lower than Mewtwo. Perhaps I'm giving too much credit no?
Historically she has had some Top Tier match-ups considered decent. You mentioned Icies which is true, but Marth is another one specifically because she's floaty and can be hard for him to kill meanwhile Lightning Kicks lol She doesn't do good against the Spacies at all, but it should be noted that she has some really potent combo strings on them too.
i love playing low tiers (including mr game and watch because he feels like one) because when i lose then it looks like the characters fault for being terrible and not my skill issues
kirby being a poor man's jigglypuff in melee is a massive misunderstanding about his vastly different playstyle from jigglypuff. It's also a talking point that's echoed word for word by many people in the community. The only real similarity between puff and kirby is that they have multiple jumps. and Puff steals *some* move animations from kirby... sort of. To say kirby is a poor man's jigglypuff is a massive misunderstanding about kirby as a character, as his playstyle and gameplan differ greatly from puff. It's comparing apples to oranges.
I play Melee casual-competitively with my friend. Stock, no items, but we’re really bad and just have fun. Bowser is bad but SO fun!! Spamming Up B OoS and using that crazy ledge get-up attack is so funny.
Bowser's get up attack is couch cancelable at any percent. Next time Bowser is sitting on the ledge just crouch in front of him and hit his endlag with a smash attack
@@plumfadoodle4908 The handicap feature that exists in vanilla. It changes knockback for the characters in battle. It's dependent on the disparity between what the handicap for one character vs the other(s) is set to. The handicap is adjustable from 1-9, similar to the computer difficulty level.
@@spydula1 That wouldn't be fair at all. At best, melee needs a patch to buff the low tiers and leave the high tiers where they're at so everyones happy, because PAL did jack shit and made lots of spacies mains unhappy. Game and watch should be able to l cancel his aerials, mewtwo's tail need a smaller hitbox. It can still be hit but the tip of it should not be a hitbox so it can be a disjoint and isn't a target. Kirby needs slightly improved walk and run speed. He can remain slow in the air. The kirby games show him that he isn't that fast on the air, and increased KO power.
You sure talk a lot of sh*t about zelda for someone who's clearly never seen the clip of Plup beating Armada 3-0 in Genesis 5 with Hyrule's one and only.
I dont think you can honestly expect almost any change in tiering for these characters, bcuz the only ones with real potential are already higher ranked than the most awful ones like bowser is already lower than mewtwo. Even if mewtwo got better results, would he really be put up a space?
7:09 yeah idk about that one honestly. Im a really new player to the game, and my friend edge gaurds me like, all the time. and i somehow manage to get a ledgegaurd fair and then BARELY make it back to stage with a perfectly f*cking vertical up B. me and him were BOTH confused.
I've hopped on unranked. I'm a Roy player and for someone who doesn't practice Ultimate or Melee, I think I'm pretty decent with Roy. I've had close games with people who are clearly better than me and they teabag me, why? Dicks. Irrelevant. Roy vs. Falco is too tedious to go through with in a tournament setting, even if you beat every best Falco, you'll be tired once you reach the mix-up which is like a Jiggs. Roy vs. Sheik feels more impossible difficulty than Roy vs. Falco for me. Sheik trades with me, wins, and takes a stock, my tools are very situational against Sheik when she can touch me and kill me. Those two characters aside, I can see Roy kicking ass at a major and maybe winning if the brackets align. Trading with a good Falcon and they just up-air you, broTHER...Almost as bad Sheik fairing me.
I honestly believe roy can do well against spacies and isn't as bad as people make it out to be. He has to play very defensive but power shield screws up lasers and roy has a good dash dance.
Really takes me back to '06 and '07 when everyone was saying that Bowser couldn't even win a tournament match AT ALL, and then MagnuM, CHAOTIC, and I showed up and proved them wrong. It makes me wonder if we could come back and prove Bowser can get out of bottom tier, but all three of us are retired.
If Yoshi's Story was the only stage then Bowser would deadass be upper low tier, above Kirby, Ness, Zelda, and Pichu for sure. His weaknesses are greatly negated on that stage and his strengths shine big time. His grounded up-b kills floaties pretty early and his up-throw f-air is really tight and only works at certain percents on most characters but it kills surprisingly early near ledge, but then again you have to get a grab with Bowser which is easier said then done 😂 Side-b shenanigans go hard as well but if you miss then enjoy eating 60% damage from an inescapable true combo unless you have the SDI of Jesus. Hope I brought back the good memories of playing Bowser :) Also please come back I fucking love Bowser, he's the second lamest character in the game next to Puff but it's so hype when he wins
As a Ness main, I cannot imagine having to play Melee Ness considering how bad he is in that game. Also Apparently his up smash doesn’t even kill until FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT in melee.
Am I really that bad at Smash that I think that the most obvious flaw in Pichu is the fact that his own attacks damage him and no one else does? I feel like that was an obvious one but maybe I really just don't know the first thing about competitive Melee...I was fully expecting that to be mentioned lol. And even if you say "oh well you can just avoid using those moves", that's still a major blemish to have not nearly as wide of an arsenal of move options as other characters.
No offense to him but no they are not near asumsaus in either editing or scripting/research. Much less info much less concisely and far fewer visuals with a less clean aesthetic. Theyre perfectly fine videos, but asumsaus deserves more credit than that
I do expect Roy and Mewtwo to move up to a mid tierish range next tierlist. Zain's gone deep in tournaments and beaten top 30ish players with Roy. Leffen's gone deep in tournaments and beaten top 30ish players with Mewtwo. Granted, I should define what I mean by "Mid Tier". Mid Tier meaning like...move up 2-4 spots. Ahead of Game&Watch, Young Link, and maybe arguments for a few other characters. But I do feel pretty strongly about those two being ahead of G&W and YL. Other top level players tried to make G&W and YL work. Axe really loves playing Young Link. Cody made a serious attempt at G&W. But they just never got the big results with those characters. They just didn't usually bully top top 30 players with their meme characters the way Leffen and Zain on multiple occasions bullied people with Roy and Mewtwo.
Bowser is better than Pichu, Kirby & Ness there I said it. He actually gimps Marth really well cuz he can upB to ledge from Marth Killer position as split reaction option select, bair has a semi spike angle, and actually has grab range and can reliably grab out of shield on obvious punishes. Oh and grab release shenanigans.
How I see it. Mewtwo could be a mid tier, but only time would tell. With Zain’s success with Roy, he could be a mid tier, maybe in the spot after Young Link. If Zelda ever reaches mid tier, she’d likely be in front of Mr Game and Watch.
She has her uses. A player called weed lesbian has been working with the character. It’s also been shown to have a better matchup against ice climbers sue easily seperates them
A lot of people already think roy is better than young Link. Hax for example. I agree with hax. Speed and throw followups are the most important thing when determining character viability. Roy is decent in these departments
I main Ness (and Lucas) in literally every other Smash game, but Melee is the only game where I just have to pass on him. He just has nothing going for him in this game, aside from the yo-yo glitch. Terrible recovery, bad range, not enough reliable ways to kill, there is just way too many aching problems with him compared to all the other iterations of him. In Melee, I main Falco instead.
I get that you needed to go through this fast, but Ness is so much worse than this implies. And trust me, I have a looooooot of experience with this. For example, Marth grabbing you, just grabbing you, is an infinite. It's ridiculous.
Is it me or does Honest Content just look like GIMR but 15 years younger? Perhaps that is why the quality is so high, GIMR made videos 15 years ago (when he had hair), started a new channel and is now just releasing them.
Other than being able to transform into each other they have full movesets independent of one another. On ultimate tier lists each pokemon in pokemon trainer is typically ranked separately as well, and in melee ppl really dont switch to zelda so ranking them separately is even more justified
Now that you mention the zelda defensive pontential the ladder on netplay before it shutdown zelda had really good win rates against most of the cast, probably because someone played like dickhead against newer players.
There were mods, but most of them were unviable in tournament play and were broken. Project M was honestly the best because it showed Melee elitists that one: Melee needs a patch. It is broken and saying its better than Ultimate is ludicrous. Ultimate wasn't great because its patches didn't buff that much of the low/bottom tiers in the right way and nerfed many characters that didn't need to be nerfed. "It's not melee" is not just only an obnoxious meme but also what many melee elitists still use today. It utilized the best of both brawl and Melee. It didn't punish new players hard by making a dumb single mistake nor forced them to play competitively. Project M could be still played with items
Here is my rant about everything about smash. When the FUCK is Zelda gonna be top tier? And when the fuck are people gonna start talking about her or being nice to her rather than this stupid overrused joke about her down B being the best move, are we not allowed to use her or anything? Are we not allowed to love Zelda? Because I'm tired of this, I'd rather die.
Loved the video, BUUUUT as a Mewtwo player I will say there's a bit of misinformation here. Mainly Mewtwo having a up throw chain grab. He does have incredible combo strings off up throw such as DJC up air regrab, or the beautiful multi Fiar. He also has a pretty good tech chase at low % against just abour everyone with down throw, almost a Sheik level tech chase against Falcon and Falco. Also, Mewtwo doesn't get combed AS badly as people put it due to his air dodge making him practically invisible on the first frame. As for the tail hurtbox due to his amazing wavedash length, and getaway options, the only time you get hit in the tail is a bad tilt on the opponent typically this is only done by your opponent CCing your down tilts.
Mewtwo is super misplaced atm, but he's coming up.
My mistake on The chain grab. He has that in Project M and I mendella effected it in my brain and thought it was in Melee. LOL
@@ZachHonestmakes sense, I completely forgot about Mewtwo having a chain grab in PM.
Great video I like the new style and fantastic editing as always. Keep it up man
On top of all that m2 is really hard to shark due to his up b going so far so fast is forces opponents to either try and shark him and m2 just gets to plat or you wait for m2 to come down and try to cover their landing option. Either way m2 is a beast at saying f that noise to sharking. His tail does also have good disjoint so his sharking game in pretty good albeit doesn’t last long but can lead to an edge guard witch is his strong suit..
@@NightGhost1400 yes and no to the disjoint stuff all of his tail moves still have the hurtbox everywhere besides for the ball at the tip of his tail making it so you really can’t win neutral with it at low%, but a well spaced back air is amazing against every one that isn’t Marth or Sheik due to them having large quick moves to stop Mewtwo from going in. For the up b I think most of it is the opponent not knowing the matchup or just understanding Mewtwo. Most of the time it is unsafe to just teleport to stage even though the move only has 8 frames of landing lag. Thankfully though because he has a crazy double jump that can be extended to go even higher if you use bair at the apex of it Mewtwo can edge cancel on every stages (minus FD) platforms for mixups.
Mewtwo has a lot of potential, but he’s so stupidly difficult I do see him as the next and possibly the last Yoshi with him falling right in between Pika and Samus.
"if you use bair at the apex" it's just any aerial though isn't it. not bair specific lol @@SsbMewtwo
It's kinda funny that 3 games later, Roy got a redemption arc and now is considered leagues better than Marth in Ultimate.
YESSS! Roy finally passed up Marth in Smash Ultimate!
I suppose he deserves some time in spotlight after being considered one of the weaker FE lords gameplay and characterwise
@@sizzle57753rd weakest lord in the whole series
@@user-it2kq4ty9q 3rd before who? I cannot think of a aingle lord that is worse than him
@@sizzle5775 2nd worst is eliwood and worst is lyn. roys prf rapier makes him a tiny bit useful because it has 95 hit in a game where the accuracy sucks. his promotion makes him really good but he only gets it for like 2 chapters or something. eliwood is just roy but swords suck in his game and he still sucks when he promotes. lyn is the worst because swords suck in her game and her str is low and her defense is garbage. her con is also 5 so if you try giving her a better weapon her best stat is gone lol. theres so many spear enemies to 2 shot her and she can barely do damage to them.
Ganon and bowser really just.. swapped places in ultimate
Yeah
Zelda was seen as a top 6 character in the early days of melee, she became a low tier just in the 8th tier list, and in pretty much most of the older tier lists she was a mid tier, so she had not only the largest fallof in melee but also one of the largest fallofs in smash
pretty ironic that PK Fire was so laggy in Melee when it's supposed to be spammed to rack up damage as well do combos out of PK Fire as Ness's Adventure trophy description
Now PK Fire is known as the spammed Ness move as of Smash 4-onwards.
One of my favorite Melee jokes is that Zelda, despite being low-tier, has the single greatest move in the game: down+B.
And even then, it’s pretty close with Shine xD
Truly a great move.
Zelda doesn't even have the best down-B in the game. Fox's shine alone is better than Sheik's entire kit.
I feel like Ness is the worst in the game or bottom 2, just a gut feeling. Bowser, Kirby, and Zelda have some interesting stuff, but Ness's up and down smashes barely function as attacks, he has no range, and he has the worst set of specials ever. He straight up has nothing besides an okay set of aerials
He has some ok djc stuff right?
Its still crazy to me that Amsa took Yoshi, made him a top tier, and is #2 IN THE WORLD with Him!
I think it's funny that Kirby is so low tier considering he's one of the strongest fictional characters.
My most underrated character (and my main since N64) has always been Link. I'm sure once you get to level of wavedashing and etc. he is probably worthless... but I love his moveset so much. I love in casual games setting up traps by doing his down+a aerial - will let Link spin in pretend "still stuck in hitstun" and just jam down *hard* and hit A. I caught so many people off guard with that over years, it's just so much fun. At least Young Link sees (or at least at some point saw, idk) some play as a counterpick (I think to Jigglypuff?).
Worst part of being a long-time Link main... I can't ever grab anyone as other characters because of his hookshot grab and how I'm used to never being that close to other characters.
Link isn't even that bad in melee. He's kind of low, but a few link mains made him work with acid drop and new tech
I mained Zelda when I played melee (not Sheik) and was so surprised to learn she was so bad on the the tier lists. She worked well enough against my friends.
It's unbelievable how underrated this channel is...
not really. the editing to be honest is above average indeed but the script is just not really that informative, not offering much information or going in depth other than surface level stuff.
How? It's alright, his physcial inclusion makes it seem like a boring presentation and the pauses ruin the pacing. It's not at all underrated
@@pickle24 what do you expect the video to be then?? I enjoyed it, maybe its fine that you personally understand the info in the video, but other people might be hearing this stuff for the first time, I find videos like this are good for people getting into the scene, thats how I personally got involved with games like Project M, because honest would cover it
@@loading...948 to each there own, he has come a long way from his previous content, you don't have to watch it if you don't want to champ
Honestly fr
I actually think that Kirby is better then Bowser in my opinion.
Really the reason I think this are fairly simple where as bowser has to scrap which can be very stage dependent, Kirby doesn't have that problem or at least to the extent that Bowser does due to him mostly playing passively.
His back air (literally his best arial) benefits in the fact that it can pseudo wall of pain people if the are new or don't space out there normals correctly and because of his multiple jumps he gets the option to mix-up his approach options in his game plan (double jump bair, use funky tilt into bair, weak smash attack into bair, ect).
For his smash attacks while not as damaging and not having as much risk reward as with Bowser they are safer to throw out and are simple to combo into which let's him convert better and get damage fast although this doesn't really help him as he doesn't really have anyway to kill options until there at high %.
Ultimately like you said it a matter of opinion it like fighting over the last piece of garbage in a trash bin lol its still going to be shit either way.
Also, Kirby has good frame Data, meaning at close quarters it does stuff, unlike Bowser who only can use UpB.
Kirby is better than Bowser, Ness, and Zelda imo.
@@djdrizzy9139 you haven’t seen Ness and Zelda then. Kirby has no good matchups can’t combo more than up tilt into another move, while Ness and Zelda have a decent matchup against spacies, and have a pretty consistent combo game and kill setups. Obviously he is better than Bower though that’s not a crazy take
@@SsbMewtwo No point in bringing up mus when they ALL lose. I just think Kirby's kit has the slight edge over them both. Especially PAL Kirby.
Also Kirby has that 3 frame jump squat
If Game and Watch had a proper shield and L Cancelled aerials, where would he fit on a tier list? Sorry if this question was already answered, but i was thinking about this today and I'm intrigued.
A buddy of mine uses G&W as a secondary, and in his opinion it probably wouldn't change much
@@bkebradley I'm inclined to agree. I think the shield actually being a shield would make a decent difference, but very little else would. N-Air would benefit a bit from being L-cancellable as it could be a tremendous platform pressure tool, but I don't think B-Air or U-Air benefit nearly as much from actually being coded as aerials.
Even with the improvements, GnW still has fundamental issues making it difficult for him to compete with the top half of the cast: he still has horrendous defensive options (his rolls and aerials OoS are trash), stubby normals, and only okay-ish frame data (iirc, I'm mostly thinking of his aerials here though).
many speculate he would be high tier because his aerials are more safe due to reduced landing lag and massive hitboxes on them
isn’t that ultimate gne
Edit: gnw
@starwarriorterra8373 This is what I'm here for, my question is answered!
Out of the below GW characters, I think the 3 most capable of rising tiers are mewtwo, roy and zelda.
Solo zelda is obviously too bad to go up even a single spot, but utilizing her as a mid match counterpick for matchups that could possibly work could give her some more usage besides a last breath recovery option and the occasional funny kick kill.
Mewtwo is honestly pretty unexplored and unpopular, I think he could easily go above GW if he had a larger playerbase.
And roy is marth but worse, not only does that already give him some hope but zain has also demonstrated roy's potential before.
I think pichu can be pushed further his f smash is pretty nasty n the nair can do wonders he has some cool niche techs but yah he’s just a funny joke character to use to troll people obviously but that doesn’t mean u can’t train with em hard n take a W at tourney from someone who doesn’t know the matchup u just can’t expect to win a tourney if u solo main pocket main they can do work if u wanna win play pikachu but if u wanna laugh n take a personal win he is perfect for that just accepting you’ll take some Ls n get rocked at the start but with time u can get some funny clips that cheese is some of the funniest stuff in gaming history to me just doesn’t feel as funny in ult
It's funny that Ness was nerfed into the dirt along with Kirby because he was thought to be too strong in 64. He is currently the third worst character on the tier list
Good Man
Fun fact with Roy, there have been several very high ranked players who have considered that he could work as a specific counter pick to puff and puff alone. I can't recall all of the intricacies of the logic behind it, but I think even mew2king considered him to counter hbox before he retired but decided it wouldn't be worth it. A common thing I have heard is that while he theoretically may be the amount of time and effort you would have to put in just for a relatively niche counter isn't worth it when you could be practicing another character with a wider matchup coverage.
I love reading these comments and being reminded that as much of a scrub as i am, most peoples competitive understanding starts with thinking wavedashing is "advanced"
Mr Game and Watch i think has the most potential of the low tiers tbh
No, but yes!
G&W’s potential certainly is there. If some of his more…obscure issues were ironed out he could at least reach the mid tier.
my thoughts exactly, his combo and punish game is just too good to be low tier but all the little inconveniences just add up into a big con that weighs him down.@@Whurlpuul
I main G&W, I'd love to see him become more viable
Fun Fact: Zelda has the best down special. But Sheik has the worst down special
Melee is officially the worst Smash game in history they literally did my favourite Nintendo characters of all time Kirby and bowser so dirty it’s literally unacceptable what the hell was Sakurai thinking
I never played Melee since I never had a Gamecube, but as a Ness main, Id probably die inside knowing that his up smash doesn’t kill until 500%, yes it’s THAT bad
@@ryanbates3319 yeah I feel like Brawl is so underrated to because most people like to talk about melee a lot which is why I prefer Brawl over Melee because there’s more content in it and it looks better graphically as well
@desmondkosmas3315 sadly i never had brawl even though I had a wii. Smash 4 was my first smash game and I currently play Ultimate now. But brawl seemed like a great game as well.
Did I miss something is Ice Climbers not on the bottom here
No theyre like mid ish tier
I thought they were a meme character I guess I'm just trash with them LOL
@@DejaLuMusic they used to be better bcuz wobbling (infinite combo off grab) was legal but after that was banned they dropped a bit.
I think you're sleeping on some of Ness' coolest stuff. Double-jump cancel is a great movement tool, and while it may not have the armor that Yoshi's does, it lets him get in on characters with his aerials in unexpected timings/places. All of Ness's aerials but down-air are pretty good despite being stubby (except for Fair which is nice and disjointed) and he has creative edgeguards with Yo-Yo smashes or the tail of PK thunder. Not to mention Yo-Yo glitch and jacket tricks, which a good player can integrate and sneak out some wins against competent high-tiers. Admittedly not good enough to be out there winning majors, but I could see a good Ness player making folks reconsider his current place in the tier list
Mewtwo does not have reliable chain grabs on any of the cast, fox, falco and falcon included. He can regrab fox and falco at certain percents, but he doesn’t have a real chain grab
Great analysis! These characters finally get the respect they deserve in Ultimate now!
If there's anything Slippi era has proved with Low-Tiers, its that its better to have a decent way to take stocks than it is to have a crappy-but-not-as-crappy-as-other-low-tiers neutral.
Ness, Roy, and Game and Watch have way better neutrals than Zelda, but Zelda isn't bodied so hard by other characters and has a much easier time killing and taking stocks. The same goes for Mewtwo, who is incredibly gimmicky but those gimmicks are way better than Roy's lame ass sword or Ness' wonky ass tech.
I think those two low-tiers I mentioned are almost guaranteed to go up because getting tournament wins with them seems more feasible because they dont require an arm and a leg to take stock nor really oddly specific tech to win matches.
Roy will always feel better to play than Mario, Zelda, Mewtwo, Pichu. That's a given.
Until he can't kill at 230% without a read.
Then he feels like he's one of the worst characters in the game because (SPOILERS) he actually is.
Not sure why people almost always compare Kirby to jigglypuff in tier discussions. They play nothing alike and the only things they have in common are that they are both pink balls with multiple jumps but the similarities end there.
Rare to find a channel I dont feel tricked by to watch
Am a fan of the full body green screen, good video
I’ve always been a low tier main. Nice to see them get some love
So where did you get your info on mewtwo's upthrow chaingrabs?
My b, my Project M brain leaking sorry 😅
It's been over two decades; I don't think anyone's moving tiers.
Well yeah, except Yoshi who’s now one of the best.
expand dong
I used to main both Ness and Roy, I would consistently win local tournaments with Ness, I wish I would advertise kept playing instead of moving onto other games all these years
pichu has consistently risen on top player tier lists for the last 4-5 years despite only codeman getting any results
It's been a long time since I've said this to somebody but you deserve a lot more subscribers. This editing is really, really nice and the content is engaging.
Don't get me wrong Zelda isn't going to win a major or isn't great, but honestly, I think she should go up a couple spots, at least where G&W is, she has her uses compared to the other low tiers, she's actually not bad against Ice Climbers for instance. Though lower than Mewtwo. Perhaps I'm giving too much credit no?
Historically she has had some Top Tier match-ups considered decent. You mentioned Icies which is true, but Marth is another one specifically because she's floaty and can be hard for him to kill meanwhile Lightning Kicks lol
She doesn't do good against the Spacies at all, but it should be noted that she has some really potent combo strings on them too.
i love playing low tiers (including mr game and watch because he feels like one) because when i lose then it looks like the characters fault for being terrible and not my skill issues
I've found a new youtuber whose content i want to 100% speedrun! Thanks making good content, fellow Marth melee and ultimate Ness main
Appreciate it!
You got good energy bro. Thanks for the video!
Roy was my favorite character. Guess people just suck at playing as him because.
kirby being a poor man's jigglypuff in melee is a massive misunderstanding about his vastly different playstyle from jigglypuff. It's also a talking point that's echoed word for word by many people in the community. The only real similarity between puff and kirby is that they have multiple jumps. and Puff steals *some* move animations from kirby... sort of. To say kirby is a poor man's jigglypuff is a massive misunderstanding about kirby as a character, as his playstyle and gameplan differ greatly from puff. It's comparing apples to oranges.
Exactly. People got to stop comparing the two
I play Melee casual-competitively with my friend. Stock, no items, but we’re really bad and just have fun. Bowser is bad but SO fun!! Spamming Up B OoS and using that crazy ledge get-up attack is so funny.
Bowser's get up attack is couch cancelable at any percent. Next time Bowser is sitting on the ledge just crouch in front of him and hit his endlag with a smash attack
I think low-tiers should be given handicap in their favor. It'd make low-tiers a lot more viable, and wouldn't be that hard to implement.
What handicap?
@@plumfadoodle4908 The handicap feature that exists in vanilla. It changes knockback for the characters in battle. It's dependent on the disparity between what the handicap for one character vs the other(s) is set to. The handicap is adjustable from 1-9, similar to the computer difficulty level.
@@spydula1 That wouldn't be fair at all. At best, melee needs a patch to buff the low tiers and leave the high tiers where they're at so everyones happy, because PAL did jack shit and made lots of spacies mains unhappy. Game and watch should be able to l cancel his aerials, mewtwo's tail need a smaller hitbox. It can still be hit but the tip of it should not be a hitbox so it can be a disjoint and isn't a target. Kirby needs slightly improved walk and run speed. He can remain slow in the air. The kirby games show him that he isn't that fast on the air, and increased KO power.
You make a good point but.... there is a counter argument
Pichu's idle animation... is cute
I dream of the day bowser escapes being the lowest rated melee character
You forgot Mr. Game and Incomplete Shield.
I'd honestly put him at the start instead of Mewtwo
Hes just using the last community tier list i think
You sure talk a lot of sh*t about zelda for someone who's clearly never seen the clip of Plup beating Armada 3-0 in Genesis 5 with Hyrule's one and only.
Fact:
K. Rool, Dedede, and Ganon are all great in Ultimate. You guys just can't play them well.
Zelda has to be better then ness right? Anyone else or is it just me?
The year is 20xx. Everyone plays fox. Except one skilled roy that has won 29 supermajors in a row and is our only savior from a rps game.
I dont think you can honestly expect almost any change in tiering for these characters, bcuz the only ones with real potential are already higher ranked than the most awful ones like bowser is already lower than mewtwo. Even if mewtwo got better results, would he really be put up a space?
7:09 yeah idk about that one honestly. Im a really new player to the game, and my friend edge gaurds me like, all the time. and i somehow manage to get a ledgegaurd fair and then BARELY make it back to stage with a perfectly f*cking vertical up B. me and him were BOTH confused.
This account is an underrated top tier
I've hopped on unranked. I'm a Roy player and for someone who doesn't practice Ultimate or Melee, I think I'm pretty decent with Roy. I've had close games with people who are clearly better than me and they teabag me, why? Dicks. Irrelevant. Roy vs. Falco is too tedious to go through with in a tournament setting, even if you beat every best Falco, you'll be tired once you reach the mix-up which is like a Jiggs. Roy vs. Sheik feels more impossible difficulty than Roy vs. Falco for me. Sheik trades with me, wins, and takes a stock, my tools are very situational against Sheik when she can touch me and kill me. Those two characters aside, I can see Roy kicking ass at a major and maybe winning if the brackets align. Trading with a good Falcon and they just up-air you, broTHER...Almost as bad Sheik fairing me.
I honestly believe roy can do well against spacies and isn't as bad as people make it out to be. He has to play very defensive but power shield screws up lasers and roy has a good dash dance.
Really takes me back to '06 and '07 when everyone was saying that Bowser couldn't even win a tournament match AT ALL, and then MagnuM, CHAOTIC, and I showed up and proved them wrong. It makes me wonder if we could come back and prove Bowser can get out of bottom tier, but all three of us are retired.
If Yoshi's Story was the only stage then Bowser would deadass be upper low tier, above Kirby, Ness, Zelda, and Pichu for sure. His weaknesses are greatly negated on that stage and his strengths shine big time. His grounded up-b kills floaties pretty early and his up-throw f-air is really tight and only works at certain percents on most characters but it kills surprisingly early near ledge, but then again you have to get a grab with Bowser which is easier said then done 😂
Side-b shenanigans go hard as well but if you miss then enjoy eating 60% damage from an inescapable true combo unless you have the SDI of Jesus. Hope I brought back the good memories of playing Bowser :)
Also please come back I fucking love Bowser, he's the second lamest character in the game next to Puff but it's so hype when he wins
@@jrodd13 Bowser being above kirby i can understand. BUT NESS AND PICHU, YOU MUST BE SOMKING CRACK BECAUSE AINT NO WAY
As a Ness main, I cannot imagine having to play Melee Ness considering how bad he is in that game. Also Apparently his up smash doesn’t even kill until FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT in melee.
Glad I could watch this early lol
Zain and his Roy might have a word with this
I had this video on my phone while I just violently threw up
Kirby is so terrible that people think Pichu is the worst character. Because they subconsciously delete Kirby as a option.
Am I really that bad at Smash that I think that the most obvious flaw in Pichu is the fact that his own attacks damage him and no one else does? I feel like that was an obvious one but maybe I really just don't know the first thing about competitive Melee...I was fully expecting that to be mentioned lol. And even if you say "oh well you can just avoid using those moves", that's still a major blemish to have not nearly as wide of an arsenal of move options as other characters.
I LOVE YOUR CONTENT!
These videos have about the same quality as asumsaus. Yet they come out so incredibly fast. I cannot believe that you do not have most subscribers
No offense to him but no they are not near asumsaus in either editing or scripting/research. Much less info much less concisely and far fewer visuals with a less clean aesthetic. Theyre perfectly fine videos, but asumsaus deserves more credit than that
Asumsaus is like S tier this guy is like A-
Fun fact: yoshi used to be a low tier and now he's arguably the 6th best character
amsa the goat
Ness might be the character I hear about the least in this game
I do expect Roy and Mewtwo to move up to a mid tierish range next tierlist. Zain's gone deep in tournaments and beaten top 30ish players with Roy. Leffen's gone deep in tournaments and beaten top 30ish players with Mewtwo.
Granted, I should define what I mean by "Mid Tier". Mid Tier meaning like...move up 2-4 spots. Ahead of Game&Watch, Young Link, and maybe arguments for a few other characters. But I do feel pretty strongly about those two being ahead of G&W and YL. Other top level players tried to make G&W and YL work. Axe really loves playing Young Link. Cody made a serious attempt at G&W. But they just never got the big results with those characters. They just didn't usually bully top top 30 players with their meme characters the way Leffen and Zain on multiple occasions bullied people with Roy and Mewtwo.
Leffen dropped Mewtwo I think at this point. And Zain still plays marth.
Ness can heal by fire ball ice climbers Down B and Special B Kirby up B
we need a vid on mario's potential
Bowser is better than Pichu, Kirby & Ness there I said it. He actually gimps Marth really well cuz he can upB to ledge from Marth Killer position as split reaction option select, bair has a semi spike angle, and actually has grab range and can reliably grab out of shield on obvious punishes. Oh and grab release shenanigans.
How I see it.
Mewtwo could be a mid tier, but only time would tell.
With Zain’s success with Roy, he could be a mid tier, maybe in the spot after Young Link.
If Zelda ever reaches mid tier, she’d likely be in front of Mr Game and Watch.
She has her uses. A player called weed lesbian has been working with the character. It’s also been shown to have a better matchup against ice climbers sue easily seperates them
A lot of people already think roy is better than young Link. Hax for example. I agree with hax.
Speed and throw followups are the most important thing when determining character viability. Roy is decent in these departments
Idk i think ppl forget how bad roy gets punished and overrate his punish. But idk really
I main Ness (and Lucas) in literally every other Smash game, but Melee is the only game where I just have to pass on him. He just has nothing going for him in this game, aside from the yo-yo glitch. Terrible recovery, bad range, not enough reliable ways to kill, there is just way too many aching problems with him compared to all the other iterations of him. In Melee, I main Falco instead.
Do they ever have Low Tier only tournaments? Kinda like Pokemon with OU, UU, RU etc.
Yeah. There are some tourneys that use low tiers/mid tiers only in the past few years and some still hold it now
Zelda's best move is down B, because it lets you NOT use zelda
Low tier viability, but no discussion of the wireframes.
If ppl keep making video like this then its gonna continue to be very easy for Ness players to go around and amaze ppl.
Can we fix it?
kirby can kill everyone at 0% with the suck cheese S tier.
Mewtwo: Top of low tier in Melee AND Ultimate.
I get that you needed to go through this fast, but Ness is so much worse than this implies. And trust me, I have a looooooot of experience with this. For example, Marth grabbing you, just grabbing you, is an infinite. It's ridiculous.
Wrong game. That's brawl
Amsa saved Yoshi from the low tiers.
Roys my boy
Is it me or does Honest Content just look like GIMR but 15 years younger?
Perhaps that is why the quality is so high, GIMR made videos 15 years ago (when he had hair), started a new channel and is now just releasing them.
Dude have you SEEN Leffens mewtwo!
Doesnt zelda have the best forward air in the game?
lol this is a kids party game
you listen to skrillex pipe down nerd
Need to find a footballer to tell you all video games are for children and watch you sputter
@@leaffinite2001 nice try pedo
Why are zelda and sheik different characters on the tier list? They are the same char in melee and brawl no?
No, Melee Zelda is leagues worse than sheik. Sheik alone is a Top Tier character, its just Zelda is not.
Other than being able to transform into each other they have full movesets independent of one another. On ultimate tier lists each pokemon in pokemon trainer is typically ranked separately as well, and in melee ppl really dont switch to zelda so ranking them separately is even more justified
Low tiers have low hope.
Now that you mention the zelda defensive pontential the ladder on netplay before it shutdown zelda had really good win rates against most of the cast, probably because someone played like dickhead against newer players.
Why nobody makes mod like protect m to improve low tiers 😢
There were mods, but most of them were unviable in tournament play and were broken. Project M was honestly the best because it showed Melee elitists that one: Melee needs a patch. It is broken and saying its better than Ultimate is ludicrous. Ultimate wasn't great because its patches didn't buff that much of the low/bottom tiers in the right way and nerfed many characters that didn't need to be nerfed. "It's not melee" is not just only an obnoxious meme but also what many melee elitists still use today. It utilized the best of both brawl and Melee. It didn't punish new players hard by making a dumb single mistake nor forced them to play competitively. Project M could be still played with items
Hmmmmmm can low tiers win locals ?
Yeah, big time
I liked mewtwo in melee …. You just have to know how to use them right
FUCK yes they do
Man i was looking for game and watch and he barely missed the cut 😵💫😔😔
Didn't Roy already win a supermajor?
No
Good video mama
Didn't Roy win a major? Zain took Roy and took him to the top.
Mewtwo doesn’t have a tail
mewtwo got way stronger 2 games later if we got that mewtwo in melee he would be much better his attacks kill so easy in smash 4
Here is my rant about everything about smash. When the FUCK is Zelda gonna be top tier? And when the fuck are people gonna start talking about her or being nice to her rather than this stupid overrused joke about her down B being the best move, are we not allowed to use her or anything? Are we not allowed to love Zelda? Because I'm tired of this, I'd rather die.