Give Me an Answer -
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
- Cliffe Knechtle has a great conversation with college students at a campus in the southwest US.
The "Give Me An Answer" ministry began as an outgrowth of the dialogues Cliffe Knechtle has had with students on various university campuses throughout the United States. These universities include the University of Maine, Harvard, MIT, University of Florida, University of Texas, University of Wisconsin, University of Minnesota, University of California Los Angeles, University of California San Diego, Berkeley, Stanford, University of Hawaii and the University of Washington. Cliffe spoke on these campuses in front of the Student Union or Library at noon for five to ten minutes. At the close of his initial remarks, he'd open up the time for questions and answers, which usually turned into a two to four hour dialogue with students. His crowd size ranged from 25 - 500 students at a time, and between classes, new students would join the discussion. This is an extremely effective way to reach a large number of university students with the Gospel of Christ.
This first young man is smart, sincere and humble.
The 2nd guy has a lot of anger towards God. He’s been there before. The fact he keeps coming back gives hope. Great job Cliff.
One Step Away he looks burdened by this world and his anger shows this u just don't know how someone can live without peace if you don't have peace within your soul this world willing eat you up.
King of Kings That is true. Jesus said we all will suffer anguish. It’s how we respond is what matters. I don’t know the young man but he is too young to have that much anger. A lot of it is built up within. It’s apparent to me he blames God. It seemed Cliff was getting to him though. Particularly when he spoke about Jesus on the cross. There is power in that Name.
He has anger only God knows why ,but he's strugglin with the reality that , what he's doing is wrong and he will pay for that if he continues going that path and he doesn't like the reality of him being responsable for his actions...so he's mad at God because of that.
The devil has blinded his mind and uses incorrect reasoning to keep him in a self right law etc
This is something the devil does to many people, he makes them think they are free to live as they please and that God shouldn't do judgment to them because it is God's fult by giving them free will and creating them ,so ,they like to live a very liberal life in many cases but are angry to God because of free will and because God will judge them.
Is very hard to reason with people like this because what they think is not ok is very wrong and disturb...may God help this man and people going through this.
I used to think like the 2nd guy until someone explained to me that if I live my life seperate from God, then at the end of my life he is merely granting my wish. For God won't force us to be with him
By your definition, the police are god, the politicians are god, the teachers are god, the parents are god, scientists are god.
God wants you to live the life you want,but be mindfull of others and that is were almost everyone fails.
The first guy; God has an amazing future planned for him. What a humble young man.
“I don’t know why God created us the way he did- he didn’t consult me...” Classic Cliff bless him 🤩
In regard to God doing a better job, once I was praying out loud for a family member and a thought came
Into my mind, “Can You try a bit harder God?” Suddenly I saw a picture of two arms with white sleeves coming toward me and two hands with holes in them, and at the same time God spoke to me and said, “Harder than this?”
I started weeping. He showed me He has already done it all.
Wonderful depiction
Amen
Whoa!!! Jesus is Amazing!!! Thanks for sharing this vivid testimony!!!
When he talked about how God never experienced emotions like that before I was like “OH MY GOSH IT MAKES SENSE” like I never even thought of that before. Cliffe really understands this stuff. He’s a wise man and I hope to fully understand things the way he does
Can you explain
Jesus loved the father and the father the spirit, the spirit the son, and vice versa. There never was a time that Jesus experienced not having the father’s love until he was on the cross. It was the first time he experienced separation from God/ Hell
That last dude made the whole situation look like a rap battle.
He's beginning to feel like a cRAP god, cRAP god. _(Because he's just a prideful man)_
lol 😂
They walked in circles 😂
it was kinda badass
Cliffe is an awesome debator for God's kingdom. We was walking circles around that second guy... literally!
The first guy asked something which I've heard many times before and something I have also obviously as a thinking human being have wondered about myself.. This is how I answer this question and its satisfactory to me at least...the goal behind God's plan and the reason for the whole of creation including the angels was so God could display and share His wonderful attributes with His creation....what are God's attributes?? well one we all know about is He is all powerful, our creation and the creation of the universe shows us just how powerful God really is!!
But God is more than just a powerful force... He is also a personal Being... not only is He the most powerful Being but He is also the most loving, righteous, merciful and just Being in existence so He created not because He needed to but because He wanted to, so He could then express His full character and share all these attributes with us, it wasn't because God was lonely because God is in an eternal relationship within the Trinity.
Now what better way to display all His attributes, than to create creatures who are free to love and know Him or free to know what it is like to know what it's like to be separated from Him...now because God is the source of all good a separation from Him will automatically mean a separation of all good because evil is just a lack of good just like darkness is a lack of light, dark isn't a thing by itself it's only a lack of something which is light.
it's the same with evil it doesn't exist without good because it is a lack of good...so because God exists then evil also exists and if we were to be truly free creatures, then we had to be given the option to know about evil because if we didn't get the option then we wouldn't be truly free.
When God created us and the angels, including satan He must have known we would choose evil, He must have known satan would rebel but just because He knew this doesn't mean He caused us to sin, we still choose to sin nobody was created for hell but choose it ourselves against the advice of our creator...some might ask, why would God still continue creating, if He knew this? ? because He built His very plan around this knowledge.. everything was made through this plan of salvation, which ultimately displays all His attributes perfectly.
The plan wasn't just about us humans God didn't make us and then realise we went wrong and decided to save us, this was the plan right from the start, it's the reason behind the whole of creation.... we are part of a much bigger picture, which is God displaying His full attributes to the whole of His creation....His power, love, mercy, justice... how could any of us know God is all these things, unless He shows us.
What would be the point of creating anything, unless you can display your full character to it?? ..now because God is outside time, this means He must know what happens in the end so I'm sure it all works out exactly how He planned!! otherwise why would He bother creating something which doesn't end up showing His power and glory?? from our perspective sometimes it can look pointless because we are limited to time and can't go beyond it, not even for a second!! but He knows until the end of time because He created time so obviously it turns out just as He planned, with Him on top of His creation so whether or not we choose to sin in the beginning.. God had us covered...because before our creation He knew He was coming to save us and made us through this knowledge.
King of Kings the answer is in Ephesians 3:9-11
avilesw well obviously I know this but non christians don't know this and won't bother reading it... skeptics tend not to like when we just quote verses to them, they say just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean it's true... it doesn't mean anythingto them.
This is a way I can get someone to logically understand our views without just quoting verses at them,it can help make them realise that our views are coherent.
Pretty good summary answer. The only issue is your explanation of evil. It does not have to exist if good exists. This would mean that since God is good and holy and is also eternal, that evil has also eternally existed. This cannot be true because only God is eternal and he is not evil. Again, overall good thoughts but just like Cliffe said, these are some deep waters!
I think the better explanation is that evil exists because God created us as free beings. Not totally free, but free enough to be responsible. Therefore free agency opens the door the to the ability to love him and others or reject and hate him and do evil to others. This is what I think you pointed to but when you said "God exists so evil exists" I wanted to make sure you weren't implying what I mentioned above. Im sure you did not mean it that way but the wording could have led someone to think that is what it said. So evil does not exist because of good as you mentioned, but because God created us as human free agents.
@avilesw : The Ephesians quote says .. and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. I would argue that God hasn't made it plain to everyone. What about the billions of people who were born and raised in other cultures, they believe something totally different.
Beautifully said.
HAHA Cliffe and the 2nd guy made me laugh. Why are they circling around eachother like a boxing match or something
they probably know each other. the interaction seemed like a performance
because sometimes people did that when they in critical thinking.
Sir Cliffe,
I can't get enough of your videos, God Bless you!
I really enjoyed watching that first guy ask questions with such a humble character.
God knows the end from the beginning.
Very interesting convrsation .... the first student raised some beatiful questions and not with arogance .... other people ask and by the sound of their voice you can see that they have already answered ..... so they dont really ask .... they just potrey their arrogance in a form of a question as they if already know ...... the second guy is an example ..... Very wise and patient Cliff ... Thanks
The second dudes arrogance activated "Cliffe Mode"..... i hope he got through to him.
I hope so also, but that kind of person will only change if they reach that turning point. I always think of it like a drunk that drinks themselves sober. Unless he has a bottom of the well moment & lives, he probably will never turn back.
Still, stranger things have happened.
I'd love to see where that guy is now. No one is too far for God to pull them back.
@@dogelife7901 I was about to say the same thing!
Great video, and I gotta say the talk with the second guy was so hilarious how you guys were walking around each other, but really good!😹.
Around 9:15 the question and answer from Cliffe made me think alot about God's plans. Thanks Cliffe! I'm about an hour away from your church but I'm planning on making a trip to visit soon. God Bless.
Love and big respect to you Cliff!!
Thank you Cliffe for bringing the word to those young people, and people like myself. God bless you and your family/friends/Grace Community Church🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
There are answers to gaining a better relationship with God through the modern restoration of the gospel.
Like Father, like Son.
Heavenly Father AND
Jesus.
And the daughter?
:-) Good job Cliffe
Cliff be blessed
"A better plan/A better world".
Stems from the idea that the current world/current plan has flaws.
Upon examination, you find "Evil and suffering" as the baseline.
In short, their idea of "PERFECT" is the stumbling block.
So the question is, what would their concept of PERFECT be and how can they fit free will into that perfect plan.
They essentially are demanding the perfect omelette to have no cracked eggs because their definition of perfect is in contradiction to their definition of cracked.
People need to get this idea that God is all loving out of their head. God is wrathful as well and knows the outcome of every type of life on the planet. Praise King Jesus who gives life more abundantly forever.
The wrath of God is a fearsome and terrifying thing. Only those who have been covered by the blood of Christ, shed for us on the cross, can be assured that God’s wrath will never fall on them. “Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through Him!” (Romans 5:9).
His wrath is dur to his love. The wages of sin are death. And the wicked will be doled out just punishment.
Lol I'm So Confused the Second Part Seems like Some Dramatic Scene they are Going over for Some Drama Course!
Cliffe I think a final answer for this guy could have been why isn’t this world a better world? I would have said, we live in a fallen world, and man’s free will so often transgresses the laws of God that’s why this world is so screwed up! God our creator created it perfect in the garden and Adam and Eve were tempted and gave in to their own desires not Gods and the rest us history! Love your videos you are absolutely God called and I love these formats you are one brave Christian taking on college students! I’ll keep you in my prayers! ✝️🙏
That last guy made Hell sounds like the Bar around the corner; But when you hear Jesus talking about it...... is completely different. The rich man and Lazarus for example. Luke 16: 19-31
I'm a Christian and I follow Christ and his teachings I don't try to replicate ancient battles fought by the Jews
I wonder what is driving that second guy?
The same thing driving Saul that became Paul. A fanatical desire to see the truth be done. Now all he needs is to see Christ & he will be on it!
18:22 - 19:30
CHECK MATE.
This had me giggling
By the looks in the audience's faces, this was a very jaw-dropping exchange.😏
The second guy was like “they haven’t met a black sheep like me😈” 😂😂
Yes I agree Alexis, that Satan did know exactly who and what he was rebelling against.
But being in the presence of God doesn’t mean that God is being seen. The Bible says that God is spirit and is unseen.
With your permission, if I may, please allow me to digress.
Those who participate in rebellion whether it be the French Revolution or disobeying parents, will gain power from such rebelling by obtaining significant feelings of power.
And this power is quite a tonic to those in subjection. We are in subjection to God. This power is almost drug like. A hard habit to kick.
And in order to get more of it the French Revolution escalated into the Reign of Terror. And we all know there are children who select a life on the streets to obtain the power not to be told what to do.
( as an aside it is worthy of bringing to remembrance that Paul the apostle predicted the disobedience of children in the latter days which we are now in.)
You seem to be more familiar with Satan’s fall than I am. Perhaps you would direct me to a few Scriptures.
I am guessing, and we are entering the realms of pure guesswork and speculation here, but could it be that Satan elected because of a dent to his pride for whatever reason, to entertain the notion that actually God doesn’t exist, which is a line of thinking that you and I and others like us never would, or ever should entertain.
And as he considers this rebellious proposition, which of course he would love to believe is true, he gains power, or increased feelings of worthwhile-ness . And the more he considers it the more power he obtains thus he becomes so seduced by this power from this rebellion, that he sets out to prove atheism to be true and actually converts one third of the angelic realm.
But along with this conversion comes a new mindset that’s bereft of any humility and reverence for the creator.
And when the good angels finally persuade Satan that God does indeed exist, Satan no longer wants to love and worship God with all gratitude because of the great increase in his own greatness. And instead he takes a belligerent attitude towards God and blames God for putting him in a position of making him a highly exalted angel of great beauty and wisdom, whereby he states that it was impossible for him, because of this, not to go in this direction. He still feels justified.
His new elated elevated state of mind was such that he had the confidence of his convictions to the degree that he was prepared to be bloody minded about it until the end. He was unmovable.
Michael the arc angel along with all the other top persuaders in heaven did their best to shrink Satan down to size and talk him out of his rebellion, which Satan elected to not see as being rebellious, but all to no avail.
The decision was eventually made that he along with all the others who wouldn’t recant would have to be expelled from heaven and although Satan resisted it, thinking he could prevail, nevertheless he failed and lost that heavenly fight.
I don’t think we should continue to underestimate the seriousness of the effects that’s produced upon us by the realisation of God’s infinite superiority. These effects are good effects and are absolutely necessary for us.
The realisation of God’s existence and all of His greatness, which is so great there aren’t words to describe it, has a healthy necessary humbling effect upon us, as we consciously or subconsciously realise our own incredulous inferiority by comparison.
The good teacher can do much with the wise humble pupil.
We all agree that knowledge in itself is very important, however the power gained from the knowledge of God is terribly empowering, but this knowledge is denied to those who have elected to not love and serve God, which is a prerequisite for enrolment.
And just as a selfish couple doesn’t know what they are missing out on by not having children, neither does the atheist have a clue of what he or she has lost.
And as there were, once upon a time, very few atheists, also it was the same in heaven.
One third of the angelic realm became contaminated by the persuasive Lucifer although eventually he recanted with the condition that he wasn’t to blame.
And let’s not be overly surprised if we should see the decline of atheism in our lifetime however if it’s not accompanied by true repentance, it doesn’t mean much.
We fight atheism just like Michael and his angels fought Satan, but we do so with the hope we might save some souls, and prevent others from making the same terrible mistake, but we also do it to defend God’s name.
The Scriptures clearly say that many will perish. Matt 7:13-14.
And few will become believers.
The sower sows his seed. He prays. God and His angels do the rest. The harvest is few but it’s to be expected.
But nevertheless we must do our duty mustn’t we, and cajole, entreat, persuade and if necessary warn too.
Along with never giving up.
As you enjoyed it, here’s another one.
That’s an interesting answer Daniel and it’s one which I wholeheartedly agree with.
Yes, you are right, God certainly does not view us as a bunch of zeros. But does that get us off the zero hook?
Maybe it does for you but it certainly doesn’t for me. But yes it does for God. You are right.
Compared to God if we are going to be a fair judge, and it’s good to do this, we don’t even begin to compare.
By comparison to Him, if we can actually be very real with ourselves, and this is hard to do, we are practically nothing at all.
It’s such a disturbing, discouraging thought that it’s difficult to even face it.
Its because we are not made to think this way, which is such a downer, we shun any kind of thinking thats like this.
However this is not all bad and momentarily I’ll explain why. Actually it’s amazing.
But God doesn’t see us as zeros because He can see what we can be. We have a great future.
But we are yet to see it. And although, if we play our cards right, we will become sons of God, living forever, nevertheless as of the moment by comparison to God, we are at the baby stage. In the womb so to speak waiting to be born.
There obviously is a tremendous difference between what we now are and a droplet of sperm and an egg from the ovary. Perhaps we can say that compared to us those 2 items are practically nothing even if they have joined forces to be one us.
But we can say that they aren’t nothing because we know what they will become. They will become like us.
But even though such a transformation is likely to happen, the ingredients themselves namely the sperm and the egg, compare most unfavourably to what we are, and in their present state they are most definitely nothing , with the exception of their amazing potential to become like us.
But you and I, look upon what really is nothing, by comparison to us, but because we have the fondest hope that it will become like us, we do not see what must be deemed a zero by comparison to ourselves, but instead with great expectation we see greatness in that nothingness by comparison to us, and if our love is strong we long for it.
But as we are amazed by the vastness of the universe, inclusive of it having qualities of infiniteness, with space never ending, so too can we be amazed by the greatness of God who made it.
However this great amazement of God cannot properly take place without deliberately recognising what we are by comparison.
In contrast to being less than a speck compared to the universe, which is a realisation that doesn’t attack our sense of worth, but instead fulls us with truly inspiring awe, however the same cannot be said, at least initially, for the maker who made it all.
This becomes a direct attack upon our sense of self worth, although I do prefer to call it what it is, which is our sense of importance.
It damages us big time. And initially there’s no way around it, or over it or under it. But if we let ourselves realise it and accept it, we quickly start to grow at amazing speed.
The more I realised this the more lost I became. And don’t forget, I’m a guy thats always believed in God.
How could there be any kind of friendship with such a God who is light years superior to me. I felt lost. And I could have said My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me.
This is a relatively recent realisation for me but it drew me closer to Christ who prior to this time I was grateful to for saving me, but aside from this my need wasn’t great for God in that format of a man.
Now I knew why Christ is called a great high priest and that He ministers to us. Prior to this time I didn’t really need any such ministry. I was sufficient within myself. But now that I had opened my eyes to my nothingness compared to the creator, I needed
this friend. This priest who could minister to me.
And because of my need of God in the format of the man Jesus Christ, I gained the necessary solace by being succoured by His ministration, which essentially results from His existence.
Then for the first time I understood, what perhaps others already knew, which was an indebtedness to Him that I could never repay. It was a humbling and it still is and I am guessing it always will be. Somehow for these past 30 years I hadn’t never really realised this.
I’ve have strayed from the subject somewhat. But all I can say is that through it all, through this proper appraisal of what I am compared to God, He the creator, whom I will never cease from gaining knowledge of, as I travel through eternity, He has been greatly magnified.
And this great magnification, denied to all who won’t endure the mortification followed by joy, at the realisation of what they are compared to their creator, is a magnification that brings with it the most interesting thoughts.
Well I’ve rambled a bit but here you have it. You are right. God certainly does not see us as zeros. We are bound for Godhood and all it entails which probably means becoming like Jesus Christ.
But we have to pull the trigger.
In faith, which is a choice, we take the plunge.
We accept God’s deal of salvation and we play ball with Him.
He says jump and we say how high.
And then what we did in faith becomes no longer faith but instead we know like we know the sun will rise tomorrow that we are walking with God.
God took His own medicine...wow.
In our dreams we can create full cities populated... Jesus for the Win
3:19 I get the point of the example but damn 🤣🤣😂😂
I feel that hot head is there trying to extract a reason to strike Cliffe. He isn't objective enough to recognize he is the one interrupting Cliffe or that he himself is intellectually dishonest by not letting him finish.
He was sure mad at something he doesn't believe in...
i think they know each other. the interaction seemed like a performance
Idk why but i feel as if i just watched Light and dark battle against one of another
The second guy walking around like he’s top shit😂😂😂
Id like to know how that 2nd guy came to an understanding
Truth be told when Jesus shouts “my God, my God why have you forsaken me” he’s not saying that he’s being abandoned by God, he’s actually referring to Psalms 22.
When the pharisees said that Jesus had an unclean spirit, Jesus said every sin will be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was referring to the Pharisees saying his spirit was unclean and Jesus was saying it was unforgivable for speaking against the spirit.
Powerful stuff, that is why i feel so angry/frustrated with atheist who curse and hate God.
The guy asked what is Gods goal. Gods goal is his Glory. And that’s all
Seems pointless really and conceited
He needs to study the concept of freewill. Without freewill, there is no such thing as love. Plus the first kid needs to realize God's does promise a better world. A world with freewill full of people that have chosen to follow him in this world.
Hi again Bryan, with this free will that God gave us ( supposedly) if God is omniscient (all knowing), then it seems to me God knows our free will decisions at all times, so in a way, all of our free will decisions are already pre-known by him before we make a decision. So, in that sense, all of our actions are pre-destined to that extent.
If I come across genuinely credible evidence of God, then I will adjust my thinking and believe in him, I have a skeptical mind when it comes to Gods existence, but I'm not a closed book, there are plenty of things that God could do to reveal himself to me, and if he exists and he's 'all knowing', then he knows 100% what it will take for me to believe in him, does that make sense?
GOD exists in time. So as we are experiencing it so is he simultaneously. If we ask for Gid to prove himself then we are just being ignorant. The vastness of space and the fact that we exist, and the fact we have working bodies, the fact there is right and wrong, order, and reason all point to God and creator. If we are looking for a miracle then it's the very fact we are here at all....
Time
God is outside of time. To say God knew a thing before it happened is to say God knew the end before the beginning. He does, but you cannot then say God knew before hand, because God is not in time (according to Cliffe). For God it *is,* not it was or will be. There is no time for God under this concept.
It is hard to grasp, but the moral implications change drastically if you treat it accordingly. You can only fault God if you can say knowing means he forced it. Free will is still free, you are responsible even if the judge knows you did it for a fact.
Hell is simply the absence of God. So simply an eternal extension of our lives now. It is our choice whether we want to be with God or not.
Would it not be worse still? Because there would be the lack of all things “good” as well? Some very simple things can fall into that like the sun giving plants light to photosynthesise. The mere light would be missing. No plants in that regard. When looking at our world on a broader perspective there is a lot of good too. And without it, becomes dire quickly without the horrific things.
God is not absemt from our lives today. Every good thing you have is a gift from God.
Want more videos from 2nd guy
It hard for us but not for God.
John 4:23-24,
1 Corinthians 13:8-13,
Didn’t see that one coming. Eminem take a day off 😅
At least the guy is searching for something and addressing the issue. Is a law student or what? 🤷♂️😇
I live in Austin, Tx. Does anybody or anyone local know when cliff speaks at UT Austin? I've like to ask some questions on my mind
Create life to spend eternity with u.. I'm sure it's not easy
It doesn't seem like the 2nd man thinks God does not exist. It seems like he knows God is real, and is as the Bible describes, but he hates God. I once felt that way, but God used my brother's understanding of himself to bring me back to him. The death of Jesus and the bigger picture. I hope something like that can happen for this man.
I would ask the last guy why he was so upset if child get killed . he clearly holds some moral standard but where does his moral compass come from ? if there is no God everything is just personal preference.
@John TS. Here is a question for you John. If you are claiming that our morals come from God, why, when I read certain passages of the Bible, does my inner moral compass feel repelled at Gods actions and commands?.
I think you're also wrong to say that without God everything is just personal preference, humans are social creatures, we thrive and survive when we cooperate with eachother, it's how we have got where we are now, look at the amazing things we've acheived as a species, .. we've walked on the moon. At no point did God aid us in that endeavor, we did it all by ourselves with the aid of science and technology.
my point is without God you cannot say "that's bad or that's good" in absolute sense because without God who defines good or bad everything is just individual tastes as Cliff says. well you can say but that's just your preference over others I mean just relative. and to answer your question -I don't know where you are referring to in the bible but - we all get upset seeing people get killed because we value life and that's right reaction but what you don't realize is God is God his thoughts are higher than ours. let me put this way as an infant you don't understand why your parents don't let you cross the highway. you can argue God but what's the point.
@John TS. Good to hear your views. I seem to have a long on-going debate with Christians about this whole thing regarding where our morality came from. As I said, my inner moral compass instinctively knows that many of the acts in the Bible either commanded by God or carried out by God that involves butchering men women and children, including babies, I feel horrified when I read it. No part of me is thinking, "yes, I can see why God had to slaughter those children". Yes, I've often heard that answer of "God works in mysterious ways, and his ways are beyond our comprehension", but that does seem to me a poor excuse, particularly in light of God, supposedly being 'all loving'. My image of something that's purported to be all loving has nothing whatsoever to do with slaughtering people, and burning down their houses, stealing their property etc.
Morality certainly isn't a case of personal preference without God, when we're born we're all taught what is good and bad/ right and wrong from our parents and peers. Occasionally you will get children who for any number of reasons dont get that grounding in moral behavior, and if left untreated as it were, these children grow up with lots of social issues and it can turn into major psychological problems.
Another issue I have with the idea that morality comes from God is that there are lots of things I don't consider sinful, but which certain denominations of Christianity do. Taking your morality from an ancient book is not a good idea as I see it.
First of all, I don't know where you got " all loving God" . I am sure you can agree that good parents won't spoil their children. spoiling kids is like paving their way to destraction. same for good judge. imagine your daughter or sister was raped but this judge let the guy go free without punishing him. God warned Sodom and Gomorrah about their sin but they kept on sinning. So..no God is not only loving but just and righteous. second of all I never said we all are born with the perfect knowledge of good and bad.When we Christian say " moral come from God" meaning God is the standard of Good and bad(moral) and not us as an individuals. As an believer it all comes down to a reliability of Jesus and I believe he is reliable.
@John TS I think the view most Christians have of God that he is all loving, I don't mean that in the sense that you meant, like spoiling your children, we can all agree if you give a child everything it wants it won't be a happy child with good values. Where did I say anything about us all being born with perfect knowledge of good and bad. I think we would both agree nobody on the planet has 'perfect knowledge', and that our morals differ slightly from person to person. You still haven't really delved into the heart of my question as to why, if my inner moral compass is God given, why do I feel repulsion at some of Gods commands? .. in other words I'm saying My own moral standards are better than the God of the Bible, and so are yours.
So yeah, God could have made a better world but that would have to include either making man do what He wants them to or better yet don't make man at all!
The first guy: Cliffe didn't fully understand his question of 'God's plan' for each individuals. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee..." Also, Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." So basically what God is saying is he predestined for us to be like Christ, in all his thoughts towards us is good! What the problem is when we make bad decisions, is what can deter God's plan for us individually. Even going to a college or a good job, who you married, things like that can be ordained by God as well. That is what the guy was trying to understand.
16:24
At the 12-minute Mark the kid says I do not know what what people need to understand is this, that in a way we can together do things better as they think it should be as God knows. What a very simply mean by that is not arrogance, it means that if we all make individual choices in the way that affects other human beings to the good not the bad out of love if we make choices and we all do that then we would not harm destroy kill wound in any way anyone else or do unto others as you would have them do unto you it really is that simple it it's not simple to do because we're human sitters but in theory it is that simple if we can live as Christ did as he grows in us we together as a community of God in Christ Jesus can be as God not not being all-powerful not being on knowing I don't mean that we will not be little Gods but we we part of him in the spirit of how we are to live God wants us to walk the earth that way God wants us to live that way always that's why we're supposed to live as Christ me the Holy Temple of God and so forth so think about that folks if we all did what we were supposed to to follow God with love and help others and do unto others in a good way think of all the things that would be happening correctly in a euphoric way but in a true euphoric way me and not ponies and unicorns and cotton candy the fake kind of Utopia Society but one that exists out of true agape love where people choose not to follow sin but to follow God.
Can you tell me the difference between imaginary and reality?
looks like him and the second guy are playing duck duck goose
Cliffs next video can be pin the tail on the Christian.
The gun analogy is poor. That is not what God is doing. God has an open invitation to join him in his glory in a new dimension of life to come. You either accept or you don’t. Jesus spoke about this in a parable of the invited guest who made excuses and were too busy. Those who don’t care and want to live separate from God will be separated from him because he loves you that much. Those that want to be with God will be because he loves you that much.
One Step Away yea I agree and we are not theatend with hell which one of the evil things that I have done in my life are God's fault or Adams fault they are all my fault my choice and I deserve punishment. By believing that Christ is the son of God and rose from the dead I can be forgiven and will not be judged when I die but live forever with God and his people
@One Step Away, I can see from a Christian perspective that all kind of makes sense. But if you take a step back, and think about it, this thing about "You either accept Christ or you don't" is a bit of a poison challice. Here is my position, I do not believe those stories in the Bible, esp in the New Testament that Jesus died for our sins, and if we accept him as our Lord and Savior, we go to heaven. You seeem to be downplaying the "separation from God" part. There are many passages in the New Testament that specify torment and eternal damnation.
Am I free to say "Thanks, but no thanks" to this offer of salvation? It begs the question, what am I being saved from?. If I truly have free will, it should not come with a threat of punishment, or any coercion.
Nobody in their right mind would sign up for eternal punishment as described in the New Testament. Jesus himself speaks of "wailing and gnashing of teeth" .. that does not sound good does it.
You say God loves us so much, well, ok. But it seems unless that love is reciprocated .. it's punishment time. That isn't real love, that is forced love. Do you see?
bonnie43uk belief is irrelevant. It does not change the outcome. It is or isn’t.
bonnie43uk
In Matthew 10 we read about Jesus’ instruction to His 12 apostles before they went out spreading His message. Within those instructions, Jesus made an important point that introduces us to the answer to these questions. After telling them what to do when people reject the gospel, He made this fascinating statement: “Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!” (verse 15).
Jesus referred to Sodom and Gomorrah, the infamous cities from Genesis 19 that God completely destroyed for their moral depravity. He said that it will be more tolerable (or bearable) for the people of these ancient cities than for the people who would reject the apostles.
He did not say anything about going to hell or being lost forever. He essentially said that these people will rise in the same period of judgment, but that one group would be given more leniency.
Keep the Bible in context as a whole. Do you study the Bible?
When I die, It's my belief that I will no longer exist as a person, my remains will simply return to the earth. I'm quite content to have lived my life, having had an incredible life that included countless amazing moments, and a few heartbreaking moments, when my heart stops beating it will be no different to being asleep and not dreaming, that sounds quite pleasant to me. What we believe isn't irrelevant during our lives, it plays a big part in who we are.
As i see it, no truly loving father would allow his children to perish . What do you think Jesus was referring to when he mentioned "wailing and gnashing of teeth"? Many Christians believe it to be a description of some kind of eternal torment in Hell. That is what I was raised to believe when I was a Christian many decades ago.
You seem to be saying the Matthew 10 passage is not a good omen for those who reject Christ. I do not believe the Sodom and Gomorah story was an actual event... it's clearly written as fiction as I read it.. the bit about turning Lots wife into a pillar of salt is the stuff of fairy tales.
The 2nd guy just cannot grasp that it's satan holding him hostage with a gun pointed at his head and the only way out is God. He can't understand that we were never supposed to die, never supposed to go to hell but since we became mortals God had to offer us heaven as an alternative to hell. We didn't even have a choice before Jesus came.
I think with the second guy Cliffe should not get riled up but ask that guy the questions to justify his own beleifs. He was brining up morality so much I would have asked him his justification for his morality and let his answers hang in the air.
@Dean Ainsworth, Hi Dean, I've been having a good conversation with a Christian on a recent Cliffe video concerning morality. I dont believe we got our morality from God, it's something that mankind has evolved over a long period of time, that 2nd guy would probably have agreed with me that morals don't come from God.
Relative morals aren't morals at all. They are passing whims of amoeba descendants and hold zero value.
which clg it is?
Beanie guy:
“I would be proud to go to hell to hang out with Shaw, Socrates, Descartes, . . . “
Also beanie guy, 2 min later:
“Would anyone here choose hell? ‘It sounds great; I want to burn for eternity.’ No, that is a forced choice, what we call coercion.”
God did plan it better; the Garden of Eden , but Adam and Eve blew that for everybody. Genesis 1-3.
At the 6-minute Mark when that guy asked about the flood and God's plan and being outside of time and so forth Cliff said that is hard for him about being part of God's plan. It should not be hard to understand even begins in several different books of the Bible but especially Genesis. And revelation. And I put those two parts of the last of the sentence in capital letters for a reason. Genesis and revelation of bookends to the entire story. That answer the young man's question God had to allow it to happen for two reasons one because God is all fair and merciful America's free well he has to let free will play out and reason why I can prove that besides what it says in the Bible and other places it does discuss how Lucifer the brightest angel of all became Satan. He became Satan the moment he turned from God and what I mean by that is do you remember how was Star Wars when Anakin turned away from the light and went to the dark side so he went from Anakin to Darth Vader. It's me not the best analogy but it works. What I'm saying to you is in heaven Satan challenge God, Satan thought he could do better than God knew better than God was better than God and wanted to be like the most high he wanted to be God. And God try to reason with him and say would not listen for Lucifer would not listen even got a third of the angels to agree with him and follow him he can wash them mentally through certain wording you know how some people can trick you into believing something just by the way they speak to you he did the same with the angels. And that's how the war in heaven in the war of our good and evil began I don't think many people understand that but it began in heaven skin did not exist in Heaven until for some reason in Satan's card are Lucifer's heart that first thought of jealousy began that first? Begin their I can't answer that other than God even give his angels free will but as far as why that first entered his heart I don't know but I can tell you that's how it began and that's why God follows the Judgment that he does now. So the flood or Sodom and Gomorrah or anyting else that happens in that form of judgment has to occur for the true reasons I mentioned because God is just and fair and through free will people choose to do what they do even though they've been warned time and time again not to do it because it is hurtful to them to the culture to the society around them and to God especially when you stopped but if they doubt he does have to destroy this in just as Hill cleanse the Earth make it new again when he comes the third time so after we been in heaven with him and he cleanses the Earth and become just to be on the earth with a New Jerusalem and so forth then sin will be completely wiped out for good.
That second guy is having some real problem or issue , he ain't normal
He was quoting psalm 22....it drives me insane when ppl bring up Christ's last words
God created a universe where the maximum number of people will freely choose to spend eternity with Him. He knows the outcome and what you will choose but still leaves the choice to you. Think of Him like a spectator of a sport who knows exactly who and when they will score. Does that mean he has direct control over the actions of the players? Definitely not.
The young man looking like a poor version of Ashton Kutcher with a cap on his head in his emotional tirade backed up by nothing but ignorance
It’s sad he thinks he will enjoy time in hell...it’s sad because it will be in no way nice or will they chill as he said
Far too many make it sound like God was incompetent or not in control of his own creation. Why allow the fall? If this was all his plan and if he was in fact all powerful couldnt he have made it a little easier? Love without action is dead. If God continued to hand us everything on a silver platter like in the garden, would we have realized just how much we are loved? We were so unappreciative we didn't believe God about the tree, but bought into the lie which killed our relationship with God. The liar and the thief was in the garden. He was a created being by God that rebelled. To test a diamond you place it in fire. If its authentic, it comes out of the fire unharmed and unaltered and ashes are used to clean and polish them. We get asked why would God allow the world to be so broken? We were bound by the law. Bondage in sin that leads to death when we were given garments of mortal skin that would die as a result for our rebellion. If God was pleased to crush his own son to save our souls then it is his mercy the world is perfectly crushing us to break the bondage of this world off of us. Do people call on the name of the Lord that is settled in comfortable complacency? The hostile young man really grabbed my attention. I see him making a Saul to Paul conversion within 10 years of this video. This is what a hijacked calling looks like. My best guess because he is loud it may be street preaching and evangelism. He's got way too much fire not to.
How can you tell the difference between.
God having revealed something to you
And
Believing god has revealed something to you ?
Great question...
@@mmazz414
Thank you 👍
James 3:13
Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom
@@dogelife7901
So you don’t know either.
I understand using examples of offense and murder, because it’s so terminal where it cannot be taken back, yet I cringe every time. Maybe the evangelist could use another example of himself possibly or against an animal. I could say my brother, since I never had one.
There’s a world of difference between getting to know a living person you can directly communicate with, can see, hear, measure, etc than getting to know some presumed supernatural entity including Jesus. One could talk to someone named Jesus directly with a material body BUT no one can make a direct empirical connection between Jesus and god. Word of mouth is too often unreliable. It’s mind boggling to know billions of people would make themselves so reliant upon such word of mouth stories that are no better than rumor as far as evidence goes.
The connection between Jesus and God is in the Gospels. Jesus is God coming to earth and being human to die for us as one of us.
Don’t be so naive !! There is NO established connection between Jesus and God. Jesus was man. God is claimed to be more than mankind. They are thus, Not the same!! And the only other possible connection is the words in the Bible and words can lie. So grow up. In fact 1 Corinthians 13:11 specifically advises people to grow up.
Regarding the 1st conversation..... You've left out the fallen angel and demonic influences.
@16:57, he tries the majority consensus trick. I think his stocking cap is baking his brain. The more this 2nd guy talks the more I see
Ted Kaczynski
.
Nobody would choose Hell? Really?
This guy just hasn't looked around. People choose Hell on earth all the time:
The addict who won't get help because the high is just too good. The woman who hops from bed to bed because she finds good men "boring" but is made miserable by these narcissistic and toxic men she continues to choose. The mobster who wants his kids to go legit but won't leave that life himself because the money is too good so he continues to serve up Hell on a sulfur platter to himself and everyone around him. The cynic who still sends hate mail to the late Mother Theresa because he can't believe there is any goodness anywhere in the universe and shrinks his soul to a wilted leaf by ascribing all manner of evil to anyone trying to do the right thing. The hedonist who betrays everyone for the next physical pleasure. The cactus-hugger who won't let go of a tragedy because she believes the sorrow and drama of it is her only source of meaning in life. The list goes on...
If people so willingly choose Hell on earth this way, how much more so would this be in the next world without the cushion of God's common grace to plead with them to go the other way?
Second guy is a fool.
Sometimes I feel like cliffe is to soft on these people. The guy literally blasphemed against God cursed him and then said he Hope's he doesnt go to heaven if there is one.
That is not Cliffs place. Cliff was respectful and met the man on every complaint and called him out on his anger. It was interesting to watch his anger dissipate and that Cliff met his emotion with equal motion. If a biologist were watching this with no context they'd probably thing it was some sort of mating ritual fighting for dominance 😆
This is long after your comment and maybe by chance you will respond to me. I have been trying to get a “full” understanding of not only blasphemy but of it being unforgivable.
So there are many things that fall under blasphemy? Is there a difference amongst them? Someone saying “omg” and not in text but verbally and fully saying it? Is me referencing that blasphemy? And then compared to someone directly doing it as the individual in this video?
How is this unforgivable? I battle with this. If I commit blasphemy (which I have and believe many do from my understanding of it of course) even if I ask for forgiveness through repentance, will I not receive it?
Is that where my misunderstanding lies? Is it that if I commit blasphemy without repentance and judgement day comes I will not be forgiven even if I truly believed in Jesus? Because if truly so that would forgive all sin? I guess the two contradict one another. But it’s dependant. Here i got stuck on my questions and what I want to ask to understand. But if you could please still take the time to try and help me understand it would be greatly appreciated.
Because my belief is that even if I committed all sin, blasphemy included to the worst of its possibility, yet truly in my heart believe in Jesus, that my sin would be forgiven.
Man , the second dude is very disturb ,has a lot anger and hate , he has no humility and HE THINKS HE IS RIGHT.
know, can you imagine working with a dude like him ?
I kinda know lol
God help him amen 🙏
Jesus' cry from the cross is not just a physical torment but also the fact he is taking the sins of mankind on himself- the blemishless lamb of God. God is sinless yet he takes up the sins of mankind-we cannot fathom this act enough. What many miss is what Jesus is alluding by this cry from the cross about the messianic prophecy in the Psalms 22. When this chapter in the Psalms is read in its context it becomes evident that Jesus is referring to his torment on the Cross and the events unfolding at the cross that fulfill the prophecies.
Psalms 22: 1-19:
My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish? 3My God, I call by day, but you do not answer; by night, but I have no relief. 4Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the glory of Israel 5 In you our fathers trusted; they trusted and you rescued them. 6 To you they cried out and they escaped; in you they trusted and were not disappointed 7But I am a worm, not a man, scorned by men, despised by the people. 8All who see me mock me;
they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me; 9“He relied on the LORD-let him deliver him; if he loves him, let him rescue him."
10For you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother’s breasts. 11Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since my mother bore me you are my God. 12Do not stay far from me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help. 13Many bulls surround me; fierce bulls of Bashan encircle me. 14They open their mouths against me, lions that rend and roar
15Like water my life drains away;
all my bones are disjointed. My heart has become like wax, it melts away within me. 16As dry as a potsherd is my throat; my tongue cleaves to my palate; you lay me in the dust of death 17 Dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me.
They have pierced my hands and my feet 18 I can count all my bones. They stare at me and gloat; 19 they divide my garments among them; for my clothing they cast lots.
Out of all religions of the world none of them a religion of peace from devil religion called Christianity and many other devil religions of the world
What is this man talking about? Gods only son, does he have a mother. That's not much of a choice. Cliffe switches to party party party as a deflection from losing.
im surprised with all his threats of murder 😳 on his audience to prove a point.🤣
Lol i find it genius, it gets them involved.
Hey everyone. I am actually the second guy with the beanie. I subscribed to this channel after seeing Cliffe come to campus. I would love to give my perspective on the discussion. First, I would like to say that I deeply appreciate all of those that honestly and earnestly look to discuss philosophy and religion with their contemporaries. I think it is important to honestly share conflicting ideas with one another for it is the only way to grow. I was excited to review this discussion because it was a compelling experience that rejuvenated my curiosity about spirituality and philosophy. Since then I have become quite interested in Eastern philosophies, such as Daoism and Zen Bhuddism. Unfortunately, I was deeply disappointed by what I saw in this video. It appears to me that Cliffe is practicing prideful sophistry. Many of the comments assert that the discussion was emotionally charged. They are correct. The issue is that, due to Cliffe's editing choices, viewers lack the proper context to understand why. What the video surreptitiously does not show is Cliffe's behavior leading up to the confrontation. Watching Cliffe live is a very different experience to watching his highly edited videos. He was quite rude to many of my peers and friends that attempted to have discussions with him. Thus, I decided to speak with him because I don't mind a rhetorical scuffle every once in a while. I realize now that I was incredibly naive to do so without my own camera crew in tow. From the outset of our discussion, he was incredibly goading and blatantly slandered me by claiming that I called Christian's "stupid hicks." When I challenged him on this ad-hominem attack, he became unsettled and the debate took on a personal tone. This video starts after several minutes of heated debate in which, in my opinion, I pointed out many of his dishonest rhetorical tactics. Think about it, does it actually make sense for the discussion to begin in the way that it does in this video? It is clear that there is tension already built between us. The beginning of the discussion gives proper context as to why. Without it, of course it appears overly dramatic. I hope that Cliffe has the intellectual honesty not to delete this comment. If so, I would like to caution his viewers on taking what you see on his channel for granted and encourage them to think critically about his editing choices and how they make his "opponents" appear. Remember, he is not only a participant, but also the editor. This could lead to some troubling ethical concerns. If Cliffe reads this, I urge him to release the video in full, unedited, from a single unchanging camera angle. This way, people may get a more realistic depiction of his behavior. I doubt he will do so though. Finally, I would like to let it be known that I harbor no ill will or resentment to Chrisitans. I may not believe in a magical God, but I find the teachings of Jesus to be the bright spot in the bible and I use many of his philosophical principles in my own life. I would, however, assert that he was not the first to come of with similarly gentle philosophies of life. I would point to the Tao Te Ching as an example that predates Jesus by several hundred years. Many of my Christian friends find Cliffe's style of combative street preaching to be decidedly un-Christ-like. In fact, after this debate, I had several Christians come up and thank me for challenging him so directly because they saw him as a bully that was diminishing the teachings of Jesus Christ. Although I would love to hear his response, and am more than willing to give him the benifit of the doubt, I currently find myself agreeing with them. I worry that his channel is here, not to further open and friendly debate, but to feed Cliffe's pride as he taunts foolishly eager young people, myself included, into stepping in front of his cameras so that he can edit together his finest moments after the fact. I suppose that I would leave Cliffe with some teachings from the bible that I think Cliffe could grow from reflecting on. I doubt Jesus would act very much like Cliffe when spreading his teachings.
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves -Philippians 2:3
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom. -Proverbs 11:2
The way of fools seems right to them, but the wise listen to advice. -Proverbs 12:15
@Salty Beanie. Good to hear from someone who actually appeared in the video and chatted to Cliffe, yes, in the video it does look as if you were confrontational from the get go, and that didn't seem right. You have come in for a lot of flak from some of the comments I've read. I thought you did very well, I tend to watch all of Cliffe's video's and comment on them as I find the whole Christian narrative extremely interesting as a former Christian it's a subject I'm fascinated with. I agree with you that Jesus did say quite a few golden nuggets of information as to how mankind should treat oneanother, but he also said a lot of things which mankind has argued over for hundreds and hundreds of years, it's always been my thought that if the God of the entire universe came down to our little planet to partake words of wisdom that we're told is essential for mankind, then he could have been a lot clearer and precise so that no one would be in any doubt whatsoever of his message, Christianity has split into hundreds and hundreds of different denominations over the past 2000 years. I also have a major issue with all the supernatural elements connected with Jesus, for me, none of them happened, outside of the Bible itself, the evidence for Jesus is not that good, dispite what Christians claim.
Anyhoo, it was good to see you debate Cliffe, I guess Cliffe and his team can edit it in any way they wish at the end of the day, it would have been good to see the other parts of your encounter, to be fair though, sometimes we see the same person in the following video, so you may well find it crops up in the next video.
seemed like a acceptably vigorous back and forth to me; no blood was spilled
Sorry bud you ain't fooling anyone here. You are a Heckler, and now an internet troll. You obviously weren't there to ask questions, you were to cause trouble for Cliffe, and to antagonize Cliffe into having an emotional outburst. To what ends I can only speculate.
You talk about Cliffe acting Christ-like. I would argue that Cliffe is being EXTREMELY Christ-like by introducing people to Jesus Christ. I mentioned that you are trolling Cliffe, because you constant arrogance displayed in the video by interrupting Cliffe, talk over Cliffe, and then have the audacity to tell Cliffe not to interrupt you. That is the classic sign of narcissism. I haven't seen any other posts by you on other Give Me an Answer vids. Cliffe's incredible patience is very much Christ-like. Christ never became a doormat nor did he not speak out against hypocrisy.
Those Bible verses that you picked out from a Google search, does not apply to Cliffe:
1.) Cliffe was not being selfish in any means. You were by refusing to listen to Cliffe and attempt to take over Cliffe's forum.
2.) Cliffe's was not using pride when confronting the false narrative you created.
3.) The fools written about in Proverbs 12:15 is you.
Cliffe is living up to Bible wholeheartedly since he is applying Proverbs 23:9 to your foolish post and foolish act you displayed in the vid.
"Don't speak to a fool, for he will despise the insight of your words."
Finally, I had the pleasure of meeting Cliffe at his church in Connecticut while I was visiting family during Christmas of 2017. Cliffe is open, friendly, is always ready to answer a question, and is willing to have legitimate, adult conversation. I told him that I was amazed with the amount of patience that he indeed displays in his vids. He responded, with a smile, "So am I!"
I would suggest that you actually seek the truth rather than sulk in anger.
It's odd that in a place of higher learning they are teaching myth, superstition, socialism, and racism in the classrooms. Glad to see Cliff there to provide some rational thought and open respectful debate without being cancelled.
"Black matter" lol 🙈🙈🙈
15:00 the arrogance of this guy
I understand the point of the second dude who thinks god points a gun at his head but insists that the person has a free choice. And yes, the point is legit for a non-christian to ask. I sure did when I wasn't a christian. So, here is how I take that one.
As Cliffe said, it's his own choice if he wants to be with god or not. But then you could ask, why not create a decent place for people who don't want to be with god which has not the horrible consequences of hell. Fair enough. The answer is: the christian god isn't just loving, he is love. That's a great difference, because love can't be found on places where he is not present. So asking for a nice place in eternity without god is self contradictory in the christian faith, because you are asking for a place where god is (love is), but where there is no god. It's impossible. I found that people don't understand this essential idea and thus make the wrong assumption, there can be a great place where there is no god.
It's like, if someone wants to belong to a nice, wealthy family and the parents agree to take him as their child, but the person doesn't like the parents, nor the other children, nor what the family stands for like certain values etc. He only wants to use their garden and access the nice house whenever he wants. Well, not gonna happen. The use of the garden and the house is bound to being a member of the family.
Do I have the option of simply saying "Thanks, but no thanks", and having nothing bad done to me after I've lived out my life? Some Christians find it hard to believe I wouldn't want to live in heaven for eternity, I'm quite happy with the thought that when I die I will no longer exist in any real sense, that is a quite comforting thought to me.
Well, nobody knows how it's going to turn out in every individual case. As christians we believe that god is 100% just and a god of love. There are different opinions on this one and there are hardcore christians who will get into your face with being thrown into hell forever. There are also good arguments that some people "will no longer exist", as you put it. I sure hope you would rethink that position because, in my opinion, life is beautiful.
Well, to some extent I agree with you that life is beautiful, I see joy and wonder in the world everyday, just seeing a baby smile is one of the greatest pleasures I get, and listening to music is one of my absolute favourite things in life, there are a whole ton of things that give me immense pleasure in life, for me personally, life is absolutely worth living for, I enjoy everyday pretty much. But I'm also fully aware that this wonderful life I'm having is certainly not universal and that millions of people are living pitiful lives for dozens of different reasons, and if I were in their situation obviously life would be almost unbearable. I'm sure that one of the main reasons people have faith in a creator is that they hope for a better life in the next world, whether they be Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever. A day never passes without me thanking my lucky stars that I have a roof over my head and food to eat. I posted a comment on here a few days ago asking why God would create terrible deadly virus's if he's supposedly 'all loving', .. the general answer was that it was the fall of man, but if God is all knowing, then he knew before he even created us that Eve would disobey him, I would even argue that he did not tell Adam and Eve the full consequences of partaking from the tree of knowledge, he simply said "They would surely die", he said nothing about millions of future generations suffering pain and misery for something their ancestors did thousands of years ago. It's a little like a Judge telling a murderer he's going to die for his crime. but not telling him that he's also going to make life hell for every single generation of that murderer's family for thousands of years to come. That is unfair in the extreme in my view.
Yes, he knew that man would fall. If free will is involved, that is almost inevitable. If love has to be a real thing in this world, you need free will. If there is no free will, you can't choose to love, you just act on your program to do good which makes you a robot. The capacity to love requires a choice to do so. So yes, he know what would happen. The question should be: couldn't he create another world without suffering? That would be A: a robot world where you can't choose to turn away from god and do only good. B: No creation at all. Can you think of another? I would have a huge problem with A. And B, well, I wouldn't have a problem in the first place, since I would not exist. I think our world is the best because he provided the solution in Jesus from the beginning for free and for everybody. It won't get easier than that, you just need to grab it. In this world, real love is possible and the rescue from the consequences of Adam&Eve comes for free. In your picture, it would be rather like this: A judge is telling a murderer he's going to die for his crime and not telling him the consequences for future generations. Then he steps down to the murderer and offers him to take his punishment for free upon himself, as well as the punishment for all future generations.
The second part of your question is great, I haven't heared it before. It's cool to read your thoughts, I struggled with this too before I chose to become a Christian.
@Thirty3rty: Always good to hear back from a Christian with their thoughts, it's an interesting question this whole subject of free will. I've often heard Christians say that without our free will we would simply be 'robots'. Well, it begs the question what will things will be like in heaven?, will you have the free will to ask questions about friends and family who, for whatever reason did not gain access to heaven?, and what if you are informed that they are suffering eternal damnation, how could you possibly enjoy life in heaven with the knowledge that people you dearly loved and cared about are in some form of eternal hell? If you tell me that God will erase your memory and give you a new one, then, whoever that is in heaven, in essence, it's not really you as I've no doubt a big part of who you are cares about other people. In heaven it seems you *will* be that robot that you speak of.
"If God is omniscient and omnipresent then couldn't he have had a better plan?"
Excellent question.
"That (question is) the height of arrogance"
Terrible answer.
Because you lack intellect, sad coming from an individual who worships science lol.
It is arrogance, though. You look into the eyes of an omnicient, omnipotent being and say "This isn't good enough. Do better."
This is the best there could have been with free will.
Second guy- “God gives kids smallpox”
Cliffe- Doesn’t really give any argument against it.
Second Guy- just wants to be angry
Cliff- let's dance 🕺
go back n watch what he says
He literally did lol, take responsibility for our free will.
Excellent discussion. Cliffe makes an interesting point that God has never given small pox or cancer to any child. From a Christian viewpoint though, surely it's a pertinent question to ask "Who created those deadly virus'es" ?. ..and for what purpose would a being create such an horrendous virus that would infect a new born baby or small child? You could also ask if God is 'all loving' and he's omnipotent and omnibenevolent then he has the power to eradicate those things. It seems it's down to science and mankinds own ability to rid the world of these terrible diseases. If God has a reason why he allows things like malaria to infect innocent babies, he's keeping those reasons pretty close to his chest. The problem of that type of suffering has always been an issue for Christianity as I see it. A new born baby surely does not deserve a short life of pain and death.
bonnie43uk you ask pitiful questions that you don’t understand due to your arrogance. Why ask those types of questions that even if you get the answer you still wouldn’t understand and accept it. Why are you here if you’re an atheist that believes and has faith in evolution? Blind faith! Good luck with that!
Hi Raul, good questions. Serious intellectual Christians have been asking themselves these pitiful questions throughout the last 2000 years and not seemingly coming up with coherent answer.. the question of why innocent people ( especially babies and young children) suffer intense pain and misery is not an easy question to answer. I'll be more than happy to hear your answer, that's why I posed the question. I certainly don't think it's in any way a 'pitiful' question. Lets say your own child that you obviously loved and cherished with all your heart, died in terrible pain with small pox, would you not question why such a beautiful child who had only brought you joy in your life had to die in such a horrific way?. My father lost his own son in a similar fashion when he was only 13. i was only 10 but I've never witnessed a grown man in so much grief even to this day. My father was a committed Christian and it shook his faith to the core. I'm sure the whole thing has played a massive part in my own thoughts, clearly it has. Perhaps that also answers your other question as to why I find these debates so interesting. Even if evolution wasn't true it wouldn't stop me asking these types of questions. It's not a blind faith in evolution, it seems to answer a lot of questions about the diversity of life.
I certainly don't think it's impertinent to ask the simple question why God would create germs and viruses that are deadly for mankind.
bonnie43uk number one, God never created any disease. The diseases and everything bad around us came after Adam and Eve decided to disobeyed God. A lot of diseases were caused by mankind itself, the problem with people like you is that since you don’t have an answer you want to blame God. People like you always think why does God let bad things happen? Why does God let a new born baby or infant go thru so much suffering and then they perish? There is an afterlife after this life which is way way better that no man can image. Why would you rather have a baby go thru all the struggles and suffering he or she would go thru let’s say in 70 years rather than go to heaven and be in the presence of God? The answer is simple but yet you don’t understand it and see it since you are an arrogant person that thinks that if you were God you would do a better job. You like all atheist think a perfect world is the one you yourself imagine inside your head. Why does God let bad things happen? To let us see that humankind away from him are lost and to let us see that mankind can’t make things better, we can try but we won’t achieved it. Look at society now and human morals, when i came to this country (USA) 29 years ago you wouldn’t see so much perverted stuff on TV and homosexuality was less common than now days which is like a plague. You mentioned on other post mankind has evolved by curing diseases and producing more food for the billions of people around the world! How is that working out? How many kids in third world countries don’t have food, water, education and clean clothes and you say mankind is better now? Instead of trying to control and proved who is the most powerful country and spending billions of dollars or whatever currency they spend on developing weapons of mass destruction why not feed all those third world countries? Mankind here on earth is trying to explore other planets and they are spending lots of money when they should try to first worry about this planet and the people living in it. Great job mankind!
Hi Raul, thanks for that reply. You mentioned that I am arrogant, I'm sorry if my comments come across like that, if you knew me in real life you certainly wouldn't see me as an arrogant person. I always try to be respectful to people and I do listen carefully to what they say, even it may not seem like it. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers in life, and if you find peace and solace within your religion, I'm certainly not going to tell you to stop.. quite the opposite, just because I have a difference of opinion does not mean you must listen to me, I am certain that nothing I will say to you will make you change your mind. Well why even pose these questions you may well ask. I think they are worth asking from my perspective, as I told you, Christians themselves struggle with trying to answer them. You were under no obligation to reply to me, I'm grateful that you did though, because it challenges my thoughts and makes me think. If God gave us brains with logic and rationale, we'd be silly not to use them wouldn't we. You mentioned the Adam and Eve story, even as a child that account of the origins of man seemed suspect to me. As I've gotten older I learned much more about our planet and it's age. We are in age now whereby if we want to know the answer to something we simply 'google it' and it will give us a ton of reliable information, we can cross check it with other information to verify it. I think it's essential that we ask questions in order to find the truth. The Bible is full of magical events. It dawned on me a number of years ago that in reality, there is no magic, in the sense that things occur that defy nature ( or the law of physics), so things like, Jesus walking on water is far far more likely to be a story, than it is an actual event. For me personally, life began to make a lot more sense.
You say God didn't create germs which kill babies. Well, I am in total agreement with you, germs are a natural part of life on this planet, we just happen to share it with bacteria that has been around in various forms for billions of years, simply type into google 'bacteria' and look on wikipedia.. the detailed knowledge we have concerning these microorganisms is amazing. Now if we compare that with the biblical answer that because Eve was decieved by a subtle snake which set into motion the fall of man, I think most rational people would take the scientific answer as being more likely. If God knows everything, God knew from the get go that Eve would be deceived by a talking serpent ( if he didn't know then he's not omniscient, and if he did know then he's the one to blame ultimately). Later in the story he drowns everyone and starts afresh with a new family, again, if he knows everything, he would know that mankind would make the same mistakes. The big difference between us is that you accept the Bible as true, whereas I'm a lot more skeptical. You mentioned a lot more stuff Raul, I'm more than happy to discuss any of those points, but I don't like to make these comments too long and I have a few chores to do. Please don't take my comments as arrogance, I'm a very chilled out person in real life :-)
bonnie43uk of course God knew Adam and Eve would be responsible for mankind fall but since he gave us freewill thats why he didn’t interfere since by him doing that, it would take away the one of the biggest gift which is freewill. If he had taken away our freewill then we would be like robots. Why did he drowned all mankind except for that family of 8 people? Noah was the only one doing his will and God found good in him not like the rest! Question for you, what do you do when you have a basket of good apples and one of them starts to go bad? Would you let the bad apple contaminate the others? Of course not, you would discard the bad apple so it doesn’t infect the good ones, that’s what God did for mankind. God knew what mankind would do and will do and that’s why he decided to create the plan of salvation thru JesusChrist but people like you reject God and his plan so you will be condemned for disobeying him! You see, you don’t see God’s plan and don’t understand the Bible due to the fact you are an enemy of God and reject him!
Cliffe: "I can never know god or understand him."
Cliffe "I know god has never given a child cancer or small pox or..."
Hmm make up your mind Cliffe.
By the way how can your god reveal to you that he IS omniscient?
How can you be sure? How can he be sure? If your god exists and thinks he is omniscient how does he KNOW he isn't subservient to a mind far greater than his and ours?
Omniscient...it's omniscient.
It is indeed, I do know how to spell it, this keyboard is a bit dodgy sometimes :)
@Birder Ben, what according to you does omniscient mean?