Guild Wars 2: Is Being IMMORTAL in an MMO Actually OK...? | A Discussion on DPS Roles and Balance
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Guild Wars 2: Is Being IMMORTAL in an MMO Actually OK...? | A Discussion on DPS Roles and Balance
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I Really can't tell if this is a "Healthy" or "Unhealthy" thing to be in the game honestly. 😅
I guess we'll see
At launch, there was no healer. Like, there really wasn't. It was antithetical to the original design goal which was counter to the "holy trinity". I'm not speaking for or against it, merely pointing it out. I played the game at launch and everybody was expected to take care of themselves in group content. It was kind of GW2's thing.
I don't think it will be a problem. Because 1) condi damage dealers will not use it, 2) Phisichal damage dealer won't use it, because thye loose 5-10% bonus from other relics.
It is like the full celestial runs, or min-max groups. In paper it works but hardly ever used.
But I do think it will helps a lot for solo open world. If you have the boons ;)
Maybe I had that thought too ofc, but maybe not. If a 42K DPS build losses 4K x4 but you gain + 1qDPS doing ~32K that's still a net gain of like 16K. It may not be an immediate change. But as Roy said in their "Balance Philosophy" video the end goal of PvE is to "finish the boss a quickly as possible, and meta is meta for a reason.
imagine that you have 8 dps in your party, and all of then lost 1.5k dps ~
you lost a 6k dps total
but you dont need healers, so you won a 20k dps player
20k -6k - the party got +14k dps.
a squad shoud get +28k dps.
well, you get a boon dps, not a dps. And again, it is not the numbers. If people would like to increase squad damage, untamed would be meta. With untamed as a healer, I did 6k more damage as the other healer (this week). So it is the same in your example, but with 2 untamed, healers win.
I can only speak for ranger, but it is fact that unhtamed has the most damage among healers.
And you skipped point 1). So what about condi fights? Ok, only vale guardian has a "condition must" mechanic, but there are many boss that is more voulnerable to condition or Epidemic is still meta.
Btw, I also think it is a valid strategy, but I don't think it is good in everywhere.
For the longest time Druid was the best raid healer. Not because the heal, boons or utility, but because it was good enough in everywhere. I see the same pattern here. Time will tell...
(P.S.: If there is no healer, who will be blamed :D )
@@enkenyYup ^. It definitely doesn't "absolutely shift the meta now," but the video was more of a "Where are we going and is that a thing we want?" Because I think healthy discussion is important (as I'm fortunate enough to largely have on my channel,) and I actually can't tell.
That being said your point about condi is valid. It will always be necessary, (or just *better,*) on some fights like Red VG. Different comps being favored on different fights is largely great imo. But Zakiros also somewhat invalidates the importance of Condi Damage as a stat if the meta does shift to favoring "x3DPS + x2BoonDPS." Not saying your wrong or I'm right. Just would rather identify a cliff, and avoid steering off it in advance, if possible. 😄 It's definitely interesting if nothing else.
@@GW2Pseudo what you wrote makes me think, it is possible to get a new relic later, with similar effect for condi damage.
Also eminds me to berserker meta in dungeons. It is an option. But it wasn't the best in fractal.
We've seen the "guardians only" fractal LFG, maybe we will see the "Zakiros only" in some strikes. But people are lazy and untrusty. That is why stable compositions remains.
Another thing, it is a constant regeneration effect. that means it is still voulnerable to spike damage. Also has problem on fights like Slothazor, where you cannot damage.
If the boon supports go down, everyone who starts ressing has no healing. without support, less might and more importantly less Fury will lower the others survival rate. Supports also do less damage, that means less healing. And here starts a problem... :)
In my opinion it is good to make relics that change your boons/conditions/combo finishers effects. And you only has 1 slot for this, so you can't change both the fury and might effects at the same time.
An item similar to this exists in the MMO I came from before GW2.
The way they rebalanced it was to reduce the amount of healing you get per member in your party. So if you're solo, you get the full amount. If you had a full party, it was like 80% weaker.
I like this suggestion a lot honestly, even if Zak stays for raids. It's one more balance lever they can potentially pull. 😄
I’d like to see this 10 man zeikrom raid squad to actually see it work like that
I've seen it in non-CMs in lfg so far. It def works. It's probably just an alternative' meta. Which is honestly nice if nothing else! ^^
thats op in openworld , even ft strike raid if it's not extreme dps check this will be op especially in pug group /
no down state > no wasting time to res party > more dps > better pug
Hhmmm, downed DPS is no DPS. No downed = more DPS 😄
I like this one in terms of gameplay. GW2 can use this chance to create a composition that does not involve the holy trinity (though tanks do not really work anyway). Playing as a healer is not as fun as smashing that boss in the face, but every squad has to choose 1-2 people for this role. I have to play as healer sometimes, but everytime I'd rather someone else does it in my stead. With this relic, everyone in the squad can have equal amount of fun.
I hear that. Some people enjoy playing Healer/Support. Others can't stand it. If nothing else, this relic allows for some "wiggle room" with the existing meta. At least on less burst-heal intensive fights. 😄
So, ive thought about this, and tryhard groups already run QDPS or ADPS in place of healers, or some offshoot like plaugedoctors or cele FB in place of full heal FB. Most healers provide a ton of other boons and utility for mechanics that would essentially break these types of builds. I dont think most people will run this, I have tried it versus bounties in full glass gear, and i feel that for the most part it does have some use overall to help bolster survivability, but full power berserker with Heart of Fire (or whatever the quickness trait is called) still has a hard time soloing/maintaining top HP on bounties. if you take it out of the golem room, pick a random bounty and try and solo it as a crit capped fury generating power dps build, you will still run into problems. maybe the unload build would be better, but it still doesnt hold a candle to the immortal rev or mirage builds that already exist. I feel like perhaps Qscrap with its barrier generation might have a better time with it but i havent tried it yet. If you havent heard of "Ursanway" from GW1 yet, we are moving towards it in GW2. and frankly i welcome it, because the game is about fun, and the majority of these raids,strikes,and fractals can be cheesed in a variety of ways, or made irrelevant with the right composition (cough heal scourge). My gripe is trying to balance around these things through making bullet-hell overlapping mechanics and boss HP scaling or mechanics that cause you to completely stop what youre doing (Kanaxi CM). I'd love to see this abused, but i have a hard time believing it will be, perhaps it will make Theif better at doing Pylons in Q2, but outside of that more damage is almost always better. we'll see what happens.
I'd double up vote this explanation if I could ^. If anything I think it'll provide "An Alternative Meta" where any maybe 9/10-level try hard groups run this. Even if the meta does shift it'll take a LONG time with the existing player base #s. -- Look at how long OP builds take to cement in PvP before they get nuked from orbit.
I more just made the video, as with most things I do, to have a thing to circumvent the idiotic negative discussion around things that inevitably comes first, and to try to kick-start the actual *thinking* surrounding meta evolution in a hopefully productive manner. To that end, I probably should have made the video when I was so tired tho. 😄
@GW2Pseudo it was a good video, sorry for wall of text I've been meaning to reply to a couple of your posts regarding this and I was about to leave work. I still haven't forgotten about the bastion pass I'll be making a video soon(tm).
@@SilhouetteGaming1 Nah all good. I wouldn't/read+respond if I didn't want to lol 🤣 & You don't have to! I was just curious, like I said, b/c I think it's some of the BEST content that they've ever pay-walled off, and would be literally the *perfect* transitionary area for getting more PvE folks in to WvW imo! 😄
Not sure how the numbers work out, but I wonder if you can just ignore mushrooms on sloth with this and tank the green goo?
Likely, you already could on some Snow Crows comps. 😄
I remember when torment runes was reworked because Revenants where immortal, heal per torment stack, there are so many weird combos to become unkillable in GW2 that this must have been an oversight, Necromancers get % health from conditions by a trait. sure this relic just seem to blanket give lifesteal on all power build so it may give Warriors some more sustain and guardians options on heal skill but I will concede to the on critical hit meaning you have to have a aggressive stat gear and we know that isn't the norm at all, right....
Tormenting runes were finally reworked because Revs were immortal, *but* Harbinger was about to come out and be even MORE immortal. Idk, I'm down for comp variety but this seems nuts to me.
Looks lovely for untamed that ambush heals every 10s :)
? It heals on ALL outgoing power damage. Think [Litany of Wrath] or [Blood Reckoning] but less, but also always! 😄
Yeah let people have their fun
In other news, i really liked the relic of the wayfinder!
It's interesting definitely. And finally a flat +25% Movement Speed Relic!
Anet response to this will be to buff area threat damages. And nerf elem as well for good mesure.
Or nerf Thief again lol
Why not both Nerf thief and elemental? It seems to be the classic trend. 😂
imo they will just add limiter or adjust it they might even add an iCD on it later. how does it fair with poison on? and if thats isnt good how does it fair with poison and demon queen relic?
Interesting point. Poison/DQ both reduce healing. I don't think you were suggesting this, but I'm personally opposed to having every fight poison you just cause this relic exists going forward now tho.
This relic is more of a Game-Wide Balance Shift than anyone realizes. An ICD is also an interesting idea to get the #s more manageable tho without removing it from the game entirely.
@@GW2Pseudo in zergs fights you will most likely have poison on you is what i was thinking. and lately anet just has been releasing op shit then lowering the numbers later. it is op and unhealthy but like so many other things they add i just think the same can be said
Maybe is wrong for PvP. Has been years since I saw a Thief doing open world stuff so probably doesn;t matter much for pve
Fun fact, it's actually 10% for PvP. And yet I think it's "less" impactful there because you aren't maxed on boons n' such. :D
Been using this relic to solo dungeons. Pretty good relic but if the mechanic needs u to move around it sucks.
It does also have the one obvious caveat of "You need to be hitting the enemy." But between there being relatively few invuln phases where your health just ticks down' in this game, and most professions having a pretty solid heal these days, it's still pretty nuts yeah. 😂
@@GW2Pseudo also guard got pistols now so even ranged power damage wouldnt be a problem anymore. its bad but better then scepter
@@rotsechs4382 True. Look out for Trident / Thrown spear / whatever they announce next week as well! 😄
It's a good thing for people that like to run solo, so it should be left in
Definitely! At the very least for open-world. I don't hate the idea that one comment suggested where it loses 0.5-1% of it's effectiveness for everyone past 2 in your subgroup. But either way it's nice to have an alternative meta' if nothing else.
I know these people who like to run solo, and they are all stealth abusers, because in order to win, you don't need to think, you don't need to look at what the opponent is doing, you just like a monkey spam stealth+strike in any situation, top gameplay, worked out 100%. rip pvp wvw
@@user-ib9ry8we9x I think ^ meant in PvE homie 😄
@@GW2Pseudo Oh, this is a typical situation in PvE when they shout "CC!" and in response "what is CC?", at what point did the gameplay disappear from the game and there remained a stupid spam combo with 1 "dps" button?
@@user-ib9ry8we9x I never said it did. And judging by your comments I don't think you really watched got the point of the video. It's more about how Zakiros could provide an alternative to having a Healer in most high-level play. And the discussion around whether that's a good thing/something people want. Not about the existence of auto attack builds. Those are just used as examples of the lowest-common-denominator. 😄
If you want to test an immortal build. go solo bounties, difficult champions, dangerous mob packs. Not hit a golem with full regen, prot and damage buffs. Really dangerous enemies either one shot you, CC you, boonri[p you or apply conditions that make the lifesteal effect insignificant. You act as if thief with inviorating precision was giga game breaking before the relic dropped. No, it's still very vulnerable.
In solo content, you would still take a Lord Hizen approved celestial build over this relic. That's what makes you immortal.
The point of this video was not "Here's an easy immortal build." The point was a discussion of the evolution of meta comps in endgame mmos, and how that can be affected by Game-Wide additions like Zakiros in the long term. Hizen makes great open-world solo and raid and open-world builds. But that's completely unrelated as you pointed out when you suggest I take this build out into a Map.
The TL:DR (or watch) Was: "Will we need healers anymore/in 3 years if you can just have all your DPS run this & call it a day, and is that necessarily a bad thing?" 😂
I soled champion bounty as spellbreaker on full dps build just this relic.
this relic is not really for everyone. not every class can maintain fury
If your raid subgroup doesn't have fury you have bigger issues than debating relics lol
I think it's ridiculous for all classes yea , nothings balanced anyways a 4% coeff wont disrupt. but if the thief trait were just given that xtra 4% ontop of what it already has in critstrikes itd still be lower than it was 2 years ago pre-nerf.
.....relic of z is just fun interaction why not exploit it, if it can be , while it can be.
The fact ANET tries to balance 3 game modes traits builds etc ...is indeed what they should have STOPPED doing years ago. At this point who gives a fuck about it or anything (especially 4% healing coefficient) relics r problem especially, suspect, but also sigils are just arbitrary icd incompetent bullshit . All sigils that proc this that or the other should have a standardized icd of 5 seconds period . ... and provide real tooltips.
I'd say it's unhealthy, because it completely eliminates the need of grouping up to do open world content.
Does it? Can you solo a world boss, or do 6 escorts by yourself or am I misunderstanding what you mean?
@@GW2Pseudo you absolutely can, on basically every class. Warrior class is the easiest because you have unlimited dodges, can run full berserk, still have a ton of HP, spec into tactics for healing power and hp on might gain.
Can literally stand under claw of jormag in drizzlewood by yourself, will never get knocked down because of movement skills constantly spamming stab, will outheal anything and everything, and will still do 25kDPS on top of that.
I won't even speak of rev because we all know it's the king of sustain in PVE.
Same goes for necro, thieves evade for years on end, ranger is broken with maces, untamed with berserker gear can perform similarly if not even better than warrior in that aspect.
Perhaps guardians are the only class that can't really pull their weight in berserker gear in open world.
If it's possible to do eparch solo it's possible to have enough sustain for anything.
And perhaps you misunderstood me a bit because I don't mean you can solo ever world boss mechanic because it often requires at least a decent group to handle without failing but you can certainly "solo" a world boss with a group of people in full berserker with no supports in the mix.