I was at my local dealership a few days ago (12-13-19) and there was a guy at the service counter (I was next to him at parts buying oil change related stuff) complaining that he has to add oil to his transmission on his new 2020 street glide after he travels to see his daughter (all interstate ride 70+ mph one hour there and 1 hour back he said). He said riding below 70 mph oil doesn't disappear---- said he was really concerned and couldn't figure out what was happening. The service guy told him he had never heard of that issue before and that he probably just wasn't filling it properly. I couldn't do anything but SMDH. I've been reading about this issue on Harley tech talk forum for years and here it is 4 model years later and still happening (even with the primary vent apparently). I have worked in manufacturing for the last 35 years and can honestly say there is zero excuse for this type of "ongoing" design flaw on a product ---- especially one that costs this much. This issue alone is the reason I will keep my twin cam touring bike into retirement instead of buying the new HD I was planning to (Currently at 43k miles with only repair being a new brake light switch). I didn't have the heart to go outside and tell the dude he had an issue that HD has let fester since the MW8 first come out in 2017 and he should pop off his derby cover to let his primary get back down to the proper level. HD ENGINEERING MANAGER --- YOU SHOULD HIRE A GOOD ENGINEERING CONSULTANT TO FIGURE OUT THIS ISSUE FOR YOU AS APPARENTLY YOU GUYS LACK THE ENGINEERING TALENT OR HAVE SUCH A LACK OF ENGINEERING LEADERSHIP THAT YOU ARE COMPLETELY UNABLE TO FIX THIS ISSUE PROPERLY. THERE IS NO SHAME IN ADMITTING THAT YOU ARE IN OVER YOUR HEAD SOMETIMES AND NEED SOME HELP. THE SHAME IS IN SELLING PEOPLE $30K+ TOURING MOTORCYCLES THAT THEY CANT TOUR ON WITHOUT THE RISK OF RUNNING THEIR TRANSMISSION DRY. THE MANUFACTURER I WORK FOR HAS BROUGHT IN CONSULTING FIRMS NUMEROUS TIMES OVER THE YEARS TO SOLVE TOUGH PROBLEMS SO I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE. ITS WAYYYYY PAST TIME TO FIX THIS ISSUE
@@rgh622 better keep an eye on trans oil level often. I did take two 3k trips this summer, reading other posts on this issue people think it happens on long rides. Harley Davidson needs to install a trans dipstick that requires no tools to make checking this easily like the engine oil.
Thanks for the video and I have one correction for you. This is not a “rare” problem! My 19 RGS did it from brand new and two of my buddies touring bikes now have vent kits installed.....so far from rare. My biggest question is....what damage has been done to my trans since it ran 12 OZ low on two occasions (in the trans) for hundreds of miles which definitely affected the ride ability of my bike. The shifting became very “clunky” due to the low oil level and the clutch didn’t perform correctly due to the primary being overfilled. As a consumer.....Harley should be extending the warranty on these power train parts for a minimum of five years total so customers have piece of mind due to Harley’s engineering mistake.
Mine went low between the 0 and 1000 miles and again between 1000 and 5000 then between 5000 and 9000 when I realized there was an issue. Trans shifts fine, no weird noises and no metal on the plug but I wonder if some microscopic damage was done.
I've experienced the same thing. I called Harley customer support and they said that they never heard of this issue. I got a friend riding a 2005 BMW that the factory replaced his fuel pump FREE. Come Harley Davidson.
But long story short no actual problem. Unless all the oil goes away it does no harm. If changed on schedule you would not even notice the difference. Same oil in both holes.
I am one of the “lucky” few who has experienced the oil transfer issue. Took a 2800 mile trip and 11 oz. of oil transferred from the tranny to the primary. I have since fixed my issue but find it very discerning that Harley claims it tests its engine design thoroughly before release, yet this issue has been around now for multiple years. Thanks Doc,well explained.
I'm right there with you. Why couldn't it have been the Mega Millions jackpot? I loaned a friend my bike 2017 FLHTP (7000 miles) to make a 300 mile round trip. When he returned I could hear a noise when I took off for work. I turned around after 1/4 mile. That evening I took it to a local shop as scheduled but not because of the noise. I have stock pipes so I could hear better. Against my suggestion they dive into the primary. Nothing visibly wrong. My suggestion was to drain each compartment individually and look for metal. After nothing in the primary they tried to drain the tranny that had very little oil. We're going to complete the scheduled oil change and pray the noise is gone. if Harley knew this was a problem, the least they could've done was give the customer a heads up to watch your tranny more often due bro blah blah. I called Harley about a recall or knowledge of any instances of my situation and they said that they didn't know anything about this problem. My bike is 2017 bough new (7 miles)t in 2019. I ride year round 50 miles a week work and home. Go figure.
It happens to ALMOST all of them. It's cheaper just to buy the kit, do it yourself. Than to play tag, at the dealership. Sad part is, bikes with the vent, can still do it. Install the bigger clutch rod. This issue is completely unacceptable. 3 times to address it. Let me tell you something, on a new bike, if you're losing ANY transmission fulid, you got problems. I've owned new bikes for decades, this has NEVER been an issue on any of them, period. Till I bought an M8, did a 5k transmission service & never even looked at it. Zero issues.
@vtec947 the engine doesn't breathe through the driveline. The primary is difficult to vent because when the engine is running, oil is flying *everywhere* in there, so venting it through the mainshaft was the best way without blowing a bunch of oil out of the vent path.
Hi Doc, Great explanation!! I am one of the “lucky” few, 2019 Road Glide Special. Vent kit installed at 5000 mile service. My theory is the type/frequency of riding is why some bikes see the issue and others do not. I ride to work daily, 63 miles each way, about 60 minutes of travel time highway/80 minutes backroads. If the clutch rod tolerance is too loose the “churning/blending” will cause the transfer and the longer/harder you ride the more chance the issue will show up.
Oil transfer happening on only a few touring models sure does seem like a larger problem when the few includes mine. Had the primary vent installed and it's been good ever since.
Jeff Johnson Definitely not rare in my opinion when you can go literally anywhere on the Internet and come up with hundreds of people having these issues
Yeah mine transferred like 2-4oz every 600-800 miles basically 2 - 3 gas tanks... i actually ordered the vent kit from Europe and installed myself when my dealer hadn’t “heard” about this issue haha
Awesome video I have a 2019 street glide that had this issue. It was a little upsetting having a brand new bike that would almost drain the transmission in a 1000 miles. Needs to say the dealer documented the issue. Then had me drive it around for 500 miles and rechecked. They did the update kit and so far I had zero issues with fluid transfer. The bike now has over 5000 trouble free miles.
Hey Doc, why are the motorscastings so different on the M8s between the Touring bikes and Softails? None of these problems have occured on the Softails. I would bet that the differenses in castings has something to do with it.
Scott Peters it’s not the castings....the softail has a cable clutch and different clutch rod than the touring which is hydraulic. The clutch rods in the touring are too small allowing the transfer.
I appreciate the video but there are a lot more affected bikes than you are alluding too. It’s a fairly big issue. I’m glad there is an apparent fix now. Harley now installs this vent on the 2020s from the factory so they are aware of the magnitude of the issue.
Had mine done right after delivery of my 2019 RK Special in April. I do my own wrenching and my first oil change at the 1000 mile mark I said " gee thats not right" Did all three holes then went to my local HD dealer and my mechanic said yep it's a problem. That day they put the fix in and now trouble free at 5400 miles. Glad HD fixed the problem after the builds dates of May 2019 and installed this on I think all hydraulic clutch models. Great vid for those who didn't know.
so did you pay for the install of kit ??? are u talking about that drilling of a hole kit ??? i have a 2019 king... with 5k on it... dealer did the 1k service ,,,, so i don't know if i had a problem on that... i will go ask them .... but i just changed the oil 3 days ago at 5k and i did not check the level before i drained it out for i did know or hear of a problem of level changing problem... oh well i will check it at every 1k miles now...
Find it strang that HD repaired it so quickly..because as Doc mention HD corp..will not authorize it until it has been documented 3 times...how do I know..because I just bought a 2018 SG with 200 miles on it. In November 2019..after riding it for few days, i had it put in storage at HD for winter and had them do a stage 1 ..as of today 12/21/19 they. Completed the stage 1 and I'm taking it on a ride in 2 today's. So while I was their I brought this subject up and he said yes they did fine some transfer and contacted HD to get it documented. So now he said they have to keep tack and if in 2 more inspections its still an issue then it will be corrected..luckily I wont have to pay for it because basically it is a new bike and I only had it for month . And they found it early
I have a 2019 Sport Glide (M8) with no mods to the engine. Have had my 3rd service done and over 12,000 miles on it in 9 mos. Zero issues with transfer. Absolutely love the bike and she's my main transportation.
Doc you are the friggin best! Nobody on the internet has addressed this problem with the level of expertise and explanation you have and you did it flawlessly. I just bought an M8 touring and this will make me sleep easy and enjoy my motorcycle more knowing the only known issue with the 2020 and newer M8’s is explained in the way you have. Keep making awesome videos! One day I’ll ride the 1400+ miles to come meet ya and say hi!
@@LowCountryHarleyDavidson doc, maybe you can do a video explaining the tic sound Everyone talks about on the M8s. I’ve heard that it’s a million things. Like the oil cooler, rockers, etc. what is it really!?
I am experiencing this problem on my 2018 FLHTK. I have my own theory from my personal experiences. I have been doing my own servicing on my Harleys for over 20 years and am a retired auto/heavy equipment mechanic. What I have experienced is that my 2018 M8 will not transfer trans oil to the primary when just riding casual rides. Only when riding long distances at highway speeds in hot weather, do I experience oil transfer in sufficient amount to be concerned. Every year I take 2 vacations with my wife and actually tour with my M8, this is when I experience transfer. Long days riding interstate highways, racking up the miles for hours at high RPMs. Usually in late July and August when temps exceed 80 degrees. This may be the reason it is showing up to be a rare problem and why it is only affecting Touring models. We know most riders are going out for a weekend ride in the country on back roads enjoying the scenery and a casual ride. I think this type of ride negates the problem. I would like to get the warranty but do not want to go through the process of 3 dealer oil changes and the miles back and forth to my dealer. Also I would have to recreate the issue by touring long distances between all 3 oil changes. This will be expensive undertaking. I've seen many different remedies for this problem and many reviews saying they don't work. I know this was 4 years ago, but has HD come to a final conclusion? Also, I appreciate every video you put up and wish I was close to your dealership to have you service my Harleys! Keep up the good work!!
WD thanks for your post with facts. Sadly yo say any models with transfer issues are no longer addressed by the Factory. The “kits” are still available. It is my understanding HD has accepted their “fix” and has incorporated this in all touring models. Purchase the Kit and outer primary cover gasket, fluid and install it your self with your ability. ….Doc
I own a 2018 Ultra Limited with 22,400 miles on it and recently have this oil transfer issue. All services are done at the dealership and have some fellow riders that experience this issue within the first 10,000 miles. I use the Harley Davidson 80/140 synthetic oil in the transmission. While I was riding I noticed that the transmission was not shifting as smoothly as normal and while letting of the throttle I would have a noticeable transmission whine. After getting home I could smell hot oil and put the motorcycle on my dolly and checked the transmission level. I’ll was barely on the dipstick so I called the dealership and they picked it up. They drained the transmission and discovered that there was only 17 ounces left in the transmission. Now I am waiting on Harley-Davidson to give the ok to dismantle and inspect the transmission on the condition of the bearings.
No wonder there is oil coming out of the derby cover when I didn't refill the primary after replacing the starter clutch. Took about a 200 mile journey before I realized I screwed up. This video makes me feel like less of an idiot. 1st harley for me , 1984 fxrs . My favorite bike I own. Great info thank you.
My 2018 FLXS now has the slinger (which didn’t help) and the vent. So far the fluid is staying where it belongs. All free of charge. Thx Doc and thx Harley D!
My 2017 FLTRU had the issue. Dealer put in the Primary Vent kit and it it helped with "short trips" but didn't solve the issue for long trips. (I was right at 5oz in 5k - annoying). Dealer recommended, and I tried, the "Greg Williams" oversize clutch rod. Turns out after I ordered it, that the previous owner had already installed the Greg Williams oversized rod - so I contacted Macomb County Choppers and advised them I already had one installed - but still had transfer. "Greg" contacted me directly and said "harley had two diameters in the M8 clutch rod "center shaft openings", and after some q&a "Greg" decided I should try his "slightly even larger" oversize rod (he apparenetly offers two sizes of oversized clutch rods). He sent the slightly larger version of the oversize clutch rod - thank you - and I installed it. It moves freely back and forth with very little side to side movement. So far seems great.
This all got started when HD moved the throw out bearing to the pressure plate. I see a lot of bikes with the transfer problem and there is a fix that moves the throw out bearing back to the side cover side. It works and no more worries.
Thank you Doc, that was an excellent breakdown, and history review of this problem. You explain things very well. I will make a note though, that maybe in the grand scheme of things, with how many bikes are sold, how many people actually document fluid changes and levels, that it's a "few or rare event", however it's happening to a lot of bikes. I did the kit myself on a 2017 SGS, and you are correct in the fact that in most cases the dealership should do this, not the customer. I'm a mechanic by trade so I was more than comfortable doing it, but the template definitely leaves some room for error due to the distance from paper to center punch in primary, and angle can throw drill location off, and if you don't thoroughly evaluate before drilling you could find yourself either too low or even into the starter housing if too far left. Mine was spot on. Thanks for doing the video, and keem em coming.
Awesome video. Thank you, Doc for the very detailed explanation. As someone already request it, I also request a video on the M8 oil sumping issue. Unfortunately, as it is already happening in the comments of this video, there is too much comments complaining about Harleys instead of focusing on the issue.
I've seen this in my 2017 FLHP with an M8. My dealer is aware and we are following the process outlined in your video. This video is the best explanation yet of the problem. Thanks for the info and you get a new subscriber.
Just had a 2019 into our dealership with the recurring oil transfer problem . Bike has a couple thousand miles on it since we did the breather install. Keep trying Harley.
Great explanation. I had the issue on 2018 RKS and I know you say it is rare and on just a few but the issue is much larger than you state. I know 6 buddies in the local HOG chapter that had the same issue Harley was a PITA to work with initially and denied it was an issue. Said it was how I rode the bike!! LOL Finally they did the dye test and it transferred 6 oz in 500 miles. The oil deflector was installed and the issue got worse. Transferred 19Oz from Trans to primary!! I ordered a 3rd party push rod and problem was solved. I had them install the last kit as a precaution. Great explanation of the issue but Harley knows this is a bigger issue as they now install the breather on new touring bikes.
Thank you. I was one of the unlucky ones with the oil transfer issue on my 2017 M8 Street glide. The local dealers went through the appropriate steps outlined for them from Harley (Milwaukee). The first attempt was the "deflector" as you described and clearly showed in the video and then finally the vent tube when the deflector didn't work. FYI, the transfer would happen within the first 1000 miles after the levels were set and checked in the transmission. All is good now. Thanks again.
One of the better videos I've watched. I'm pushing 25 years as a Harley mechanic, first at a dealership and now (part time) on my own for the past fifteen years or so. Good explanation. I'll be back to watch more if a situation arises.
"Very few of the touring models". I personally know 4 people with M8 equipped touring bikes, a 2017, 2 2018 and 1 2019. 3 of them have the transfer issue. In two, the vent kit fixed it (after months of back and forth with their dealer and HD customer service). On the '17, they installed the flinger, which didn't fix the issue. Basically they shrugged their shoulders and said too bad. He wound up going to court over it. Between their failure to introduce a fix in the manufacturing process and the struggles to even get the problem acknowledged by those who have had it, I no longer have plans to buy any more new Harleys.
I was torn between a 2024 RG and a low mileage 2019 CVO RG at the same price. Decided on the CVO only to find I have the transfer issue when I changed the fluids yesterday. Probably only 15 ounces came out of the transmission and way too much came out of the primary. Talk about buyer’s remorse.
Good video but 12 bikes out of our 22 bike group had the problem my 19 RK empty the transmission every 500 miles so did 2 others Harley install the vent tubes in them so far it has solved the problem
great explanation. now I finally understand. on many of the group discussions it is so confusing. people need to understand that this happens to cars too uggggh. they are so complex anymore there is bound to be something. that is why we have warranty. and I wonder too those who are blowing out their engines to larger displacement contribute to this issue.
Thank you Doc Harley! I’ve got a 2019 Street Glide on which I perform a 3-hole fluid change, religiously, every 5,000 miles. Because of a minor oil leak, that I determined was from the oil in my reusable air filter, I dropped the oil from my transmission into my oil pan. I poured the transmission gear oil into my quart measuring cup that I use for oil changes and I had 18 oz. At the last oil change, about 3,500 miles prior, exactly 28 oz. has been put into the transmission. Thus, 10 oz. had ended up in my primary. What are your thoughts? For the record, I’ve been a long-time (40 year plus) DIY mechanic who has pulled and installed car engines, replaced drive shafts, rebuilt many carburetors, starters and alternators, completed brake jobs including rebuilding wheel cylinders and machining drums and rotors, etc. I’m not even close to being a mechanic, but I’m much more knowledgeable and skilled than the average bike owner.
I would remove the trans side cover and see if your model had the Slinger installed. If not, reassemble and install the primary breather kit. If it does have the slinger, remove, reassemble and install the Primary breather kit.....Doc
My 2019 Roadglide ultra has this problem. Just brought it to my dealer to get the vent kit done. The fluid in the transmission wasn't touching the stick. I pulled the derby cover and oil poured out. Hopefully this problem will be solved. Greg William's makes a fat shift rod to fix this too.
I bought an 18 Road Glide Special new in April 2018 and had a dealer installed Stage 3 build. Got 48k miles on her now and have had no issues. Can't complain. Thanks for the info Doc.
The vent kit was installed in my RKS 2019 after I noticed no trans oil on dipstick. I think this problem is more than eventual. Which explain why all 2020 touring have this from factory.
Absolutely it was...he's trying to down play it..it happened on my 17' Rgu..there was no fix at the time..just a bunch of maybe this or that..got tired of it n got rid of of it last yr...too bad I did like the ride tho...
I had this issue with my 17 SGS. It would happen at the 1500 miles every time. Harley Davidson documented and then put the kit in. Thank goodness it was still under warranty.
Quality information, thank you. It feels like the motorcycles (rare Touring model) that are experiencing this, is because how they are ridden. Long stretches of Highway miles under heavier loads. Thanks again.
Great explaination of the problem and fixes for the novice. My 17 SGS thankfully doesn't have this issue. My hang up is the fact that even though Harley has identified the problem and developed a fix they make the customer put up with 3 trips back to the dealer and 15,000 miles of riding before they will fix it. Most guys I ride with do their own wrenching and oil changes. If its broke Harley should fix it, period.
This just happened to my 2019 FLHR with 1000 miles on the ODO _( dry transmission dip-stick checked on side-stand after riding),_ and the dealership told me that are going to install the "kit". The service department said that they rarely ever see this issue ;) Har Har.
Doc fantastic video!! It's great to have someone explain that's knowledgeable, and doesn't treat the student like a fool. Racing and wrenching for more than 50 years. Well not racing anymore!! Lol Thanks again Tom
That was informative Doc. I own. 2019 Ultra Limited and as luck would have it, I had the oil transfer problem and venting kit was put on my bike. This in my opinion could be considered a Mickey Mouse way to fix the problem. I recently learned that a Greg Williams designed new push rod is available with a larger diameter and a flat side. Fixed in ten minutes by the owner and problem solved. Look I love my bike but Harley could have stepped up a hell of a lot better.
Great video, well explained! I don’t know how true it is, but I know a guy that had the issue on his ‘19 SG and said the first sign for him was difficulty shifting gears (likely due to low transmission oil). I assume you wouldn’t notice though unless you lost enough transmission oil over into the primary.
Saying it’s been happening on “a few touring models” seems to also be saying that they don’t want to admit that it should be a recall. THEY’RE MADE EXACTLY THE SAME! ITS AN ASSEMBLY LINE! The only reason they’re saying its happening only here and there is because not everyone does their own oil changes in order to notice. When the dealer does your oil change, do they check what the levels are before they drain each pan? No....that protects them from discovering the problem. I think that Doc Harley should explain why it only happens on some and not all. Doc’s explanation is more information than we’ve ever received from anyone else though.
From what I can see, it's only the hydraulic clutch equipped touring bikes... Most still have the clutch cables, and those bikes don't have this issue. They are not all the same.
@@patrickzambori473 thanks for that information. Something I wasn’t aware of. I fixed my oil transfer with the primary vent so hopefully it stays that way!
Just had the breather "fix" done on my '18 FLTRU at 16.8k miles, at a pre-emptive 20k service prior to a cross country trip coming up. Approx. 10 oz of fluid transferred since 12k mi service. Mine's a 107 w/ S2 Tq Cam, breather, SE tuner.
You mentioned this transfer happened on a few touring models. Which models - 107, 114, 117? On models that were suspect HD engineers could put in a sensor to measure the amount of oil that transfers so they could verify what’s happening.
To bad they didn't come up with the solution last yr when I owned the 17' Rgu M8..went a couple of times to the dealer n got several possibilities on my migration ..which was 15 oz from trans to primary..after the second try in only 200 miles..drained the primary myself to confirm oil level..needless to say got rid of it an bought a competitor thereafter that does not have this issue with migration ..HD needs to step up on their reliability in their products..n I know of quite a few that had the same issue as I had..by the way I still own a 92' Flhs Evo..solid mill..
Hey Mike !! was You tubing and your video popped up on my Feed, Excellent Video, Nice Job !! I Miss South Carolina, i became an Ast. Manager and then a Dealer manager up here in New England, but because of a health issue i was forced to Retire, i now ride a Honda Goldwing F6C Valkyrie and manage a small independent shop in the summer. Hope Everyone Down there is Well, i'm always talking to people about my time there.
When I was working on the transmission on my 2009 Dyna I was wondering what kept the oil from the primary and the transmission because of that hole in the shaft the main shaft I asked Harley-Davidson about it but they didn't know so I'm glad I saw this video this explains it perfectly.
I too am a lucky one. 2018 FLHR. 25k service there was only 17oz of fluid in my transmission. The dealer serviced my bike. 15 minutes down the road it started blowing oil out the exhaust to the point I couldn’t see the cars behind me. They are working on it.
2nd time watching this video. This vid helped me diagnose a customers problem in 5 minutes. Parts ordered and repair to come. Thanks for a great heads up video.
It is transferring through the clutch rod passage because of vacuum. The breather tube eliminates the vacuum. Harley should definitely cover it under warranty. Most people are buying an aftermarket larger diameter shift rod but it is not made out of hard enough metal and ends up putting fillings in the oil. If you find a cheap low mileage 2018 or 2019 Harley you know that it is transferring bad. This kit will solve the problem but I have to wonder if it will allow condensation to get to the oil in the bike . Harley needs to step up our go out on business.
may i add something to this that they may not have considered? typically the touring models dont get hammered on by old guys like myself, i have a 2020 roadglide limited which comes with the extra vent, i have been sick and havent ridden much in 2 years, i had it serviced at dealer to ride this season, the trans was empty, they corrected the levels, i rode 100 miles, it was empty again, they tore it down and replaced the seals between trans and primary, i rode 100 miles trans was empty again, at this point im wondering what is going on.... I have worked in various car dealerships for 45 years... so i decide to investigate what was going on. the vent installed in the primary was fine, the one on trans cover had an insect in it, travels from high pressure to low..... forcing oil out of trans and into primary, i didnt get oil blowby or oil consumption because i never hammer on it so no visible signs of oil being pushed out of crankcase.
So glad you found the insect in top transmission cover breather tube. Without this open you will continue to have issues. Note to everyone, if your bike sits at rest for a long time check this tube……Doc
@5:40 shows transmission spacer and seal off a 5-speed transmission pulley spacer redesigned in 1994 having more surface contact to support the drive pulley and prevent a different issue H-D was dealing with @the time. That seal on a H-D would NOT prevent oil from entering the primary. that seal failure would result in a puddle on the ground. Oil can ONLY enter the Primary from Transmission through the center of Mainshaft, as you have stated, and the Main Engine Case Seal. I have seen Primary's pour several ounces out thru derby cover and the trans dipstick dry, convincing me the issue lies there. easily 8-12 oz of oil. I've also seen the EXACT same thing on a VENTED 'Band-aid' Primary...Unless the 'WIZZ-BANG 'Tech that performed the Vent Update failed to adjust the Trans fluid. That's Definitely a Possibility... I Honestly Believe the Trans Vent due to it's location, possibly doesn't allow proper venting due to the 'Blender' Affect? H-D was most likely hoping this issue would go away like a Bad Fart...getting lost with all the other nonsense going on in today's world...Great Video's Doc Thanks!!!
How about a video talking about the sumping issue on the M8. I’d love to know the number produced compared to the number of bikes that have had this issue. Great videos Doc.
Thanks doc I appreciate u explaining more in depth about what this all about. I have a 2019 Electra glide standard that had this fluid transfer issue and they had to install this same vent kit at like 275 miles I have a little over 5k on here now and so far so good....but when I asked my dealer what they did they seemed like they didn't wanna say all they said it's been corrected and didn't really explain what they did. Thanks again for this explaintion.
2019 road glide special. Breather installed from dealer. Just found transfer at 4000 miles. Trying a larger pushrod. Heard it solves the issue. We will see.
Boas Doc, se a Harley Davidson tem este Problema desde pelo menos 2017 até 2020 , a nível mundial deve ser milhares de motos com este problema, as motos ao sair de fabrica já deveria trazer este problema já resolvido ou chamar os clientes as concessionárias para resolver na hora, com isto tudo faz com que os clientes H D pensem duas vezes antes de comprar outra H D . Cumprimentos.
I was unaware of the situation. At 5000 miles when changing fluids I noticed almost no oil in the transmission and it was in the primary. I vented the primary case. Problem solved.
Thank you very much for your explanation. I have this problem on my 2017 road king and they always denied it in Buenos Aires. Today I continue with the same problem but with the pandemic I cannot go 9 months ago and the warranty expired ... Harley Buenos Aires
Terrifically well explained 👍 ! (As usual dear Doc 😉) Luckily, on my FLHRCI 2004, I never noticed such transfer oil problem. At around 65'000 km I had to make changing the shifter shaft seal (leaking)
Doc, this may have been rare a year ago, its well known now. My RK does it and most every bike with a Hydraulic clutch does it. HD needs to recall this and fess up. My dealer wants to charge me 71.00 plus oil for tyranny and chaincase oil change to start out a 1k mile measurement. This is just plain wrong.
MMMM seems like this comment could be leaning towards sarcasm. I am a Harley-Davidson Tech. That is what I Service and install Harley-Davidson parts that fit. I appreciate you watching..Doc
Stupid question but when changing oil, pull the plug first and then filter when it's about done draining? The reason I ask is because the last video focused on the oil filter and not drain plug.
What I did not hear you say was that at some point in operation ( warm-up, upshift, downshift) the primary is creating a low-pressure condition, thus allowing oil to be drawn into the primary from the clutch- push rod bore in the main shaft. Also, does H-D, contend that opening the chaincase to the atmosphere, solves this problem? I figured the starter and jack-shaft assembly would let enough air pass. Is that area really sealed up now? I did not see a filter on the atmosphere end of the tube supplied in the 26500027 kit. Was it inside of the vent tube? No worry, I have a length of a straw scrubber that I have made robust air filters from in the past. Ed Smith, Cedar Creek Lake, Texas.
@@LowCountryHarleyDavidson It happened on my 19 Street Glide, when into the dealer and they didn't have to look up the vent kit ,they when right in and grabbed one off the shelf like it happens all the time,Harley should cover this, it cost me $300 to have the vent kit installed because of Harleys fuckup
Simply put, the dense air/oil mist inside the transmission is being pushed through the transmission mainshaft by the pressure differential between the transmission housing, vented to the atmosphere, and the lower pressure in the primary housing. In this case, reducing the differential by venting the primary housing was a solution; although these questions remain; why does the pressure differential exist and how substantial is it? This video mentioned the early Big Twin, dry clutch 4-speed transmissions transferring oil through the mainshaft, resulting in a well-oiled dry clutch. A worn clutch pushrod seal was mentioned as causing the oiled clutch. The early dry clutch and late Twin-Cam and M8 machines share a common symptom, but for different reasons. The reason for oil transfer through the mainshaft on a `65 to Early 1984, 4-speed is twofold. By design, the primary housing of these machines operated at a negative pressure. A special vacuum gauge service tool, calibrated in inches of water, is used to measure the operating vacuum in these primary housings. The transmission, vented to the atmosphere, operates a higher pressure than the primary housing. The clutch pushrod seal is one of several components tasked with maintaining the lower operating pressure inside the primary housing of these machines. Without this seal the negative operating pressure in the primary housing would be lost through the transmission vent. The second factor that would guarantee oil transfer through the mainshaft of these early machines was overfilling the transmission. When the oil level of the 4-speed is sufficient to partially or completely fill the center of the mainshaft, due to the pressure differential between the transmission and primary housings, the pushrod oil seal was insufficient to prevent oil transfer. It is also worth mentioning that the dry clutch in these machines was open and exposed to the oil mist used to lubricate the primary chain; over time they would always become oiled and would require periodic cleaning, but that’s another story. With the introduction of the Big Twin wet clutch, it was no longer necessary to rely on the engine to provide a lower operating pressure inside of the primary housing, so going forward the primary housing was sealed from engine and now relied on venting through the transmission mainshaft. This method worked well for decades. While there may have been some pressure differential between the transmission and primary housing, until recently it wasn’t substantial enough to transfer a significant amount of fluid. There is no question that the lower pressure inside the primary housing on these late model machines is being generated by the engine. How much pressure is being generated and why would be great subjects for video.
Very informative! Although for the Harley guys I’ve talked to locally with the issue, they would have not made it to the 5k mike inspection interval because the transfer was so great.
This would be rare....Documantation is the first step...take notes of oil in each for three oil changes...must be done straight up on level platform. Is your bike stock? Has it been lowered in the back only? Having the bike angled to the rear can sometimes gather Trans fluid at the main shaft. Then while the bike is on the jiffy stand oil flows through the main shaft to Primary....Doc
All original suspension and angles bicycle. I made these notes transfers an average of 400ml of oil from the gearbox to the primary. The bike is used for a short period of time. This problem I noticed after replacing the basket hub and compensator for an eliminator. Oil transfers through the clutch actuation rod. A mechanic made a breather in the primary, solved the transfer but through this breather now leaks oil from the primary. Could any solutions adopted in M8 serve for M6? For example kit 36300028 or a larger diameter shaft.
I was at my local dealership a few days ago (12-13-19) and there was a guy at the service counter (I was next to him at parts buying oil change related stuff) complaining that he has to add oil to his transmission on his new 2020 street glide after he travels to see his daughter (all interstate ride 70+ mph one hour there and 1 hour back he said).
He said riding below 70 mph oil doesn't disappear---- said he was really concerned and couldn't figure out what was happening. The service guy told him he had never heard of that issue before and that he probably just wasn't filling it properly. I couldn't do anything but SMDH.
I've been reading about this issue on Harley tech talk forum for years and here it is 4 model years later and still happening (even with the primary vent apparently). I have worked in manufacturing for the last 35 years and can honestly say there is zero excuse for this type of "ongoing" design flaw on a product ---- especially one that costs this much. This issue alone is the reason I will keep my twin cam touring bike into retirement instead of buying the new HD I was planning to (Currently at 43k miles with only repair being a new brake light switch). I didn't have the heart to go outside and tell the dude he had an issue that HD has let fester since the MW8 first come out in 2017 and he should pop off his derby cover to let his primary get back down to the proper level.
HD ENGINEERING MANAGER --- YOU SHOULD HIRE A GOOD ENGINEERING CONSULTANT TO FIGURE OUT THIS ISSUE FOR YOU AS APPARENTLY YOU GUYS LACK THE ENGINEERING TALENT OR HAVE SUCH A LACK OF ENGINEERING LEADERSHIP THAT YOU ARE COMPLETELY UNABLE TO FIX THIS ISSUE PROPERLY. THERE IS NO SHAME IN ADMITTING THAT YOU ARE IN OVER YOUR HEAD SOMETIMES AND NEED SOME HELP. THE SHAME IS IN SELLING PEOPLE $30K+ TOURING MOTORCYCLES THAT THEY CANT TOUR ON WITHOUT THE RISK OF RUNNING THEIR TRANSMISSION DRY.
THE MANUFACTURER I WORK FOR HAS BROUGHT IN CONSULTING FIRMS NUMEROUS TIMES OVER THE YEARS TO SOLVE TOUGH PROBLEMS SO I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE. ITS WAYYYYY PAST TIME TO FIX THIS ISSUE
Jack Wagon amen brother! Well said, well said!
@@boblafountaine9560 Amen, No problems with my 99 RHC. If they fix this issue, I'll buy a new one on 2-22-2022.
Amen
Amen!!!
absolutely !!, consult a lemon law attorney, HD obviously can't fix it, only treat the symptoms.
Doc you are the reason why I trust true Harley Davidson Tech's , thank you .
Very well said.
If you thing all Harley techs are like Doc Harley you are dead wrong. You'll find out , just wait and see.
Yo Ringo I look at my comments and I said true techs I don't see were I said all , but thanks for the " KAREN "Reply .
@@BigTruckRacing ....That True tech makes a lot of sense ! I wish I would find a true tech , gggg. What a KAREN reply
I have not met a good Harley Tech at Harley.
That was an amazingly well detailed and descriptive explanation of an issue I never even knew existed!
Kkkkk kk kk kk kk k kk k lvlkkkmw
@@rgh622 better keep an eye on trans oil level often. I did take two 3k trips this summer, reading other posts on this issue people think it happens on long rides. Harley Davidson needs to install a trans dipstick that requires no tools to make checking this easily like the engine oil.
Thanks for the video and I have one correction for you. This is not a “rare” problem! My 19 RGS did it from brand new and two of my buddies touring bikes now have
vent kits installed.....so far from rare. My biggest question is....what damage has been done to my trans since it ran 12 OZ low on two occasions (in the trans) for hundreds of miles which definitely affected the ride ability of my bike. The shifting became very “clunky” due to the low oil level and the clutch didn’t perform correctly due to the primary being overfilled. As a consumer.....Harley should be extending the warranty on these power train parts for a minimum of five years total so customers have piece of mind due to Harley’s engineering mistake.
TheMarkMillerGroup absolutely agree!! It should be a damned recall!
Mine went low between the 0 and 1000 miles and again between 1000 and 5000 then between 5000 and 9000 when I realized there was an issue. Trans shifts fine, no weird noises and no metal on the plug but I wonder if some microscopic damage was done.
@@boblafountaine9560 Exactly they know
I've experienced the same thing. I called Harley customer support and they said that they never heard of this issue. I got a friend riding a 2005 BMW that the factory replaced his fuel pump FREE. Come Harley Davidson.
But long story short no actual problem. Unless all the oil goes away it does no harm. If changed on schedule you would not even notice the difference. Same oil in both holes.
I am one of the “lucky” few who has experienced the oil transfer issue. Took a 2800 mile trip and 11 oz. of oil transferred from the tranny to the primary. I have since fixed my issue but find it very discerning that Harley claims it tests its engine design thoroughly before release, yet this issue has been around now for multiple years. Thanks Doc,well explained.
I'm right there with you. Why couldn't it have been the Mega Millions jackpot? I loaned a friend my bike 2017 FLHTP (7000 miles) to make a 300 mile round trip. When he returned I could hear a noise when I took off for work. I turned around after 1/4 mile. That evening I took it to a local shop as scheduled but not because of the noise. I have stock pipes so I could hear better. Against my suggestion they dive into the primary. Nothing visibly wrong. My suggestion was to drain each compartment individually and look for metal. After nothing in the primary they tried to drain the tranny that had very little oil. We're going to complete the scheduled oil change and pray the noise is gone. if Harley knew this was a problem, the least they could've done was give the customer a heads up to watch your tranny more often due bro blah blah. I called Harley about a recall or knowledge of any instances of my situation and they said that they didn't know anything about this problem. My bike is 2017 bough new (7 miles)t in 2019. I ride year round 50 miles a week work and home. Go figure.
Precisely what I experienced with my 2019 SG!
It happens to ALMOST all of them. It's cheaper just to buy the kit, do it yourself. Than to play tag, at the dealership. Sad part is, bikes with the vent, can still do it. Install the bigger clutch rod. This issue is completely unacceptable. 3 times to address it. Let me tell you something, on a new bike, if you're losing ANY transmission fulid, you got problems. I've owned new bikes for decades, this has NEVER been an issue on any of them, period. Till I bought an M8, did a 5k transmission service & never even looked at it. Zero issues.
what could go wrong you drill a precision placed hole with a PAPER template
Why dont they send out a plastic template. Easy and cheap...paper...geeeez
THAT...I have to agree with. Or why don't they make a rigid metal or plastic template?
@vtec947 the engine doesn't breathe through the driveline. The primary is difficult to vent because when the engine is running, oil is flying *everywhere* in there, so venting it through the mainshaft was the best way without blowing a bunch of oil out of the vent path.
Sounds like Harley should install it and do it for free seeing as how it’s a manufacturing issue. Anyone else think so?
I can't see why you would have to pay for the repairs..it's a manufacturer defect...just as with cars. Who said you have to pay for it....
The dealers are doing it for free but you have to take it in and have it documented just like Doc talked about.
I think most have not had to pay it.
it cost to much to get a service done. i can do it for under $100 3 services at 300 each 900 now ??? i will just watch the level close...
Should just be a damn recall
Hi Doc, Great explanation!! I am one of the “lucky” few, 2019 Road Glide Special. Vent kit installed at 5000 mile service. My theory is the type/frequency of riding is why some bikes see the issue and others do not. I ride to work daily, 63 miles each way, about 60 minutes of travel time highway/80 minutes backroads. If the clutch rod tolerance is too loose the “churning/blending” will cause the transfer and the longer/harder you ride the more chance the issue will show up.
Oil transfer happening on only a few touring models sure does seem like a larger problem when the few includes mine. Had the primary vent installed and it's been good ever since.
Jeff Johnson Definitely not rare in my opinion when you can go literally anywhere on the Internet and come up with hundreds of people having these issues
@@jeffreyengle2762 Exactly
Yeah mine transferred like 2-4oz every 600-800 miles basically 2 - 3 gas tanks... i actually ordered the vent kit from Europe and installed myself when my dealer hadn’t “heard” about this issue haha
What bikes are effected by this. ?? I have a 2020 road glide special
My 2018 Rg has the same problem
Awesome video I have a 2019 street glide that had this issue. It was a little upsetting having a brand new bike that would almost drain the transmission in a 1000 miles. Needs to say the dealer documented the issue. Then had me drive it around for 500 miles and rechecked. They did the update kit and so far I had zero issues with fluid transfer. The bike now has over 5000 trouble free miles.
christopher scafuri did they do it for free seeing as how it’s a manufacturing issue on a new bike?
Yes the bike is under warranty
Hey Doc, why are the motorscastings so different on the M8s between the Touring bikes and Softails? None of these problems have occured on the Softails. I would bet that the differenses in castings has something to do with it.
Scott Peters it’s not the castings....the softail has a cable clutch and different clutch rod than the touring which is hydraulic. The clutch rods in the touring are too small allowing the transfer.
@@TheMarkMillerGroup hmmmm, I was told the castings have different oil channels and more of them than the touring bikes. IDK, will research further.
I appreciate the video but there are a lot more affected bikes than you are alluding too. It’s a fairly big issue. I’m glad there is an apparent fix now. Harley now installs this vent on the 2020s from the factory so they are aware of the magnitude of the issue.
Had mine done right after delivery of my 2019 RK Special in April. I do my own wrenching and my first oil change at the 1000 mile mark I said " gee thats not right" Did all three holes then went to my local HD dealer and my mechanic said yep it's a problem. That day they put the fix in and now trouble free at 5400 miles. Glad HD fixed the problem after the builds dates of May 2019 and installed this on I think all hydraulic clutch models. Great vid for those who didn't know.
so did you pay for the install of kit ??? are u talking about that drilling of a hole kit ??? i have a 2019 king... with 5k on it... dealer did the 1k service ,,,, so i don't know if i had a problem on that... i will go ask them .... but i just changed the oil 3 days ago at 5k and i did not check the level before i drained it out for i did know or hear of a problem of level changing problem... oh well i will check it at every 1k miles now...
Find it strang that HD repaired it so quickly..because as Doc mention HD corp..will not authorize it until it has been documented 3 times...how do I know..because I just bought a 2018 SG with 200 miles on it. In November 2019..after riding it for few days, i had it put in storage at HD for winter and had them do a stage 1 ..as of today 12/21/19 they. Completed the stage 1 and I'm taking it on a ride in 2 today's. So while I was their I brought this subject up and he said yes they did fine some transfer and contacted HD to get it documented. So now he said they have to keep tack and if in 2 more inspections its still an issue then it will be corrected..luckily I wont have to pay for it because basically it is a new bike and I only had it for month . And they found it early
I have a 2019 Sport Glide (M8) with no mods to the engine. Have had my 3rd service done and over 12,000 miles on it in 9 mos. Zero issues with transfer. Absolutely love the bike and she's my main transportation.
Glad to see you ride! I cry when I see 3-5 year old bikes (pre-owned) on the sales floor with only 5k miles on them
Same here, but on a sport glide 2018. 37.000 kilometers now and no problems. Thanks Doc, for the great video.
Very informative, thanks for all you do Doc!
It’s a Joy to watch your videos , I’m learning a Lot !!
Doc you are the friggin best! Nobody on the internet has addressed this problem with the level of expertise and explanation you have and you did it flawlessly. I just bought an M8 touring and this will make me sleep easy and enjoy my motorcycle more knowing the only known issue with the 2020 and newer M8’s is explained in the way you have. Keep making awesome videos! One day I’ll ride the 1400+ miles to come meet ya and say hi!
I thank you for your positive feedback. It would be our pleasure to be a Destination Location......Doc
@@LowCountryHarleyDavidson doc, maybe you can do a video explaining the tic sound Everyone talks about on the M8s. I’ve heard that it’s a million things. Like the oil cooler, rockers, etc. what is it really!?
I am experiencing this problem on my 2018 FLHTK. I have my own theory from my personal experiences. I have been doing my own servicing on my Harleys for over 20 years and am a retired auto/heavy equipment mechanic. What I have experienced is that my 2018 M8 will not transfer trans oil to the primary when just riding casual rides. Only when riding long distances at highway speeds in hot weather, do I experience oil transfer in sufficient amount to be concerned. Every year I take 2 vacations with my wife and actually tour with my M8, this is when I experience transfer. Long days riding interstate highways, racking up the miles for hours at high RPMs. Usually in late July and August when temps exceed 80 degrees. This may be the reason it is showing up to be a rare problem and why it is only affecting Touring models. We know most riders are going out for a weekend ride in the country on back roads enjoying the scenery and a casual ride. I think this type of ride negates the problem. I would like to get the warranty but do not want to go through the process of 3 dealer oil changes and the miles back and forth to my dealer. Also I would have to recreate the issue by touring long distances between all 3 oil changes. This will be expensive undertaking. I've seen many different remedies for this problem and many reviews saying they don't work. I know this was 4 years ago, but has HD come to a final conclusion? Also, I appreciate every video you put up and wish I was close to your dealership to have you service my Harleys! Keep up the good work!!
WD thanks for your post with facts. Sadly yo say any models with transfer issues are no longer addressed by the Factory. The “kits” are still available. It is my understanding HD has accepted their “fix” and has incorporated this in all touring models. Purchase the Kit and outer primary cover gasket, fluid and install it your self with your ability. ….Doc
My 2019 RKS had this issue and my Harley dealer installed the breather tube free of charge to me. Thanks for the detailed explanation!!
I own a 2018 Ultra Limited with 22,400 miles on it and recently have this oil transfer issue. All services are done at the dealership and have some fellow riders that experience this issue within the first 10,000 miles. I use the Harley Davidson 80/140 synthetic oil in the transmission. While I was riding I noticed that the transmission was not shifting as smoothly as normal and while letting of the throttle I would have a noticeable transmission whine. After getting home I could smell hot oil and put the motorcycle on my dolly and checked the transmission level. I’ll was barely on the dipstick so I called the dealership and they picked it up. They drained the transmission and discovered that there was only 17 ounces left in the transmission. Now I am waiting on Harley-Davidson to give the ok to dismantle and inspect the transmission on the condition of the bearings.
Thanks for the report. Hope everything works out for you. Thanks ~ Doc
Do you have the vent ?
No wonder there is oil coming out of the derby cover when I didn't refill the primary after replacing the starter clutch. Took about a 200 mile journey before I realized I screwed up. This video makes me feel like less of an idiot. 1st harley for me , 1984 fxrs . My favorite bike I own. Great info thank you.
My 2018 FLXS now has the slinger (which didn’t help) and the vent. So far the fluid is staying where it belongs. All free of charge. Thx Doc and thx Harley D!
My 2017 FLTRU had the issue. Dealer put in the Primary Vent kit and it it helped with "short trips" but didn't solve the issue for long trips. (I was right at 5oz in 5k - annoying). Dealer recommended, and I tried, the "Greg Williams" oversize clutch rod. Turns out after I ordered it, that the previous owner had already installed the Greg Williams oversized rod - so I contacted Macomb County Choppers and advised them I already had one installed - but still had transfer. "Greg" contacted me directly and said "harley had two diameters in the M8 clutch rod "center shaft openings", and after some q&a "Greg" decided I should try his "slightly even larger" oversize rod (he apparenetly offers two sizes of oversized clutch rods). He sent the slightly larger version of the oversize clutch rod - thank you - and I installed it. It moves freely back and forth with very little side to side movement. So far seems great.
Thanks for sharing. I did not know….Doc
This all got started when HD moved the throw out bearing to the pressure plate. I see a lot of bikes with the transfer problem and there is a fix that moves the throw out bearing back to the side cover side. It works and no more worries.
I wish my local dealership would have Techs like you. They are not. :(
The problem with most dealerships is, get it done quick, not necessarily right! Been there, then the battle begins.
All motorcycles are built the same... If the issue is a problem on one it can be a problem anytime on another. thanks for the explanation.
I assume you mean all H-D’s are built the same. Most if not all other bikes use unit engines.
Thank you Doc, that was an excellent breakdown, and history review of this problem. You explain things very well. I will make a note though, that maybe in the grand scheme of things, with how many bikes are sold, how many people actually document fluid changes and levels, that it's a "few or rare event", however it's happening to a lot of bikes. I did the kit myself on a 2017 SGS, and you are correct in the fact that in most cases the dealership should do this, not the customer. I'm a mechanic by trade so I was more than comfortable doing it, but the template definitely leaves some room for error due to the distance from paper to center punch in primary, and angle can throw drill location off, and if you don't thoroughly evaluate before drilling you could find yourself either too low or even into the starter housing if too far left. Mine was spot on. Thanks for doing the video, and keem em coming.
Couldn’t you just measure the gap from the straight edge of the breather to the center of the hole then mark it on the back of the housing?
Awesome video. Thank you, Doc for the very detailed explanation. As someone already request it, I also request a video on the M8 oil sumping issue. Unfortunately, as it is already happening in the comments of this video, there is too much comments complaining about Harleys instead of focusing on the issue.
I've seen this in my 2017 FLHP with an M8. My dealer is aware and we are following the process outlined in your video. This video is the best explanation yet of the problem. Thanks for the info and you get a new subscriber.
Just had a 2019 into our dealership with the recurring oil transfer problem . Bike has a couple thousand miles on it since we did the breather install. Keep trying Harley.
Great explanation. I had the issue on 2018 RKS and I know you say it is rare and on just a few but the issue is much larger than you state. I know 6 buddies in the local HOG chapter that had the same issue Harley was a PITA to work with initially and denied it was an issue. Said it was how I rode the bike!! LOL Finally they did the dye test and it transferred 6 oz in 500 miles. The oil deflector was installed and the issue got worse. Transferred 19Oz from Trans to primary!! I ordered a 3rd party push rod and problem was solved. I had them install the last kit as a precaution. Great explanation of the issue but Harley knows this is a bigger issue as they now install the breather on new touring bikes.
Thank you. I was one of the unlucky ones with the oil transfer issue on my 2017 M8 Street glide. The local dealers went through the appropriate steps outlined for them from Harley (Milwaukee). The first attempt was the "deflector" as you described and clearly showed in the video and then finally the vent tube when the deflector didn't work. FYI, the transfer would happen within the first 1000 miles after the levels were set and checked in the transmission. All is good now. Thanks again.
Great & informative video Doc. I would not say this is a common problem.....but I would definitely not say it is "rare".
Great job Doc, excellent description in laymen’s terms. Thx
One of the better videos I've watched. I'm pushing 25 years as a Harley mechanic, first at a dealership and now (part time) on my own for the past fifteen years or so. Good explanation. I'll be back to watch more if a situation arises.
Thanks for tuning in..Doc
I am fortunate that my bike is not having this issue. 28,000 miles and all good. Good job as always on explaining the problem.
Good News....Doc
I have a 2017 M8 Road Glide with 14K miles and I DO NOT HAVE THIS ISSUE. This is my daily rider no issues
"Very few of the touring models". I personally know 4 people with M8 equipped touring bikes, a 2017, 2 2018 and 1 2019. 3 of them have the transfer issue. In two, the vent kit fixed it (after months of back and forth with their dealer and HD customer service). On the '17, they installed the flinger, which didn't fix the issue. Basically they shrugged their shoulders and said too bad. He wound up going to court over it. Between their failure to introduce a fix in the manufacturing process and the struggles to even get the problem acknowledged by those who have had it, I no longer have plans to buy any more new Harleys.
I hope that your personal experience isnt the case for the majority. Bad luck can be just that sometimes. Nothing new is ever perfect.
I was torn between a 2024 RG and a low mileage 2019 CVO RG at the same price. Decided on the CVO only to find I have the transfer issue when I changed the fluids yesterday. Probably only 15 ounces came out of the transmission and way too much came out of the primary. Talk about buyer’s remorse.
Thank you sir for the video and this important information.
Good video but 12 bikes out of our 22 bike group had the problem my 19 RK empty the transmission every 500 miles so did 2 others Harley install the vent tubes in them so far it has solved the problem
great explanation. now I finally understand. on many of the group discussions it is so confusing. people need to understand that this happens to cars too uggggh. they are so complex anymore there is bound to be something. that is why we have warranty. and I wonder too those who are blowing out their engines to larger displacement contribute to this issue.
outstanding explanation and great video. Thanks so much for doing this.
I really enjoy my 88 carb'ed Twin cam ... just so many less issues.
“On a rare occasion”??? “A little bit more oil...and a little bit less”????
C’mon, that’s almost as euphemistic as “they all do that!”
AV84USA ya, this guy’s full of shit on this topic I’m afraid 💩
Thank you Doc Harley! I’ve got a 2019 Street Glide on which I perform a 3-hole fluid change, religiously, every 5,000 miles. Because of a minor oil leak, that I determined was from the oil in my reusable air filter, I dropped the oil from my transmission into my oil pan. I poured the transmission gear oil into my quart measuring cup that I use for oil changes and I had 18 oz. At the last oil change, about 3,500 miles prior, exactly 28 oz. has been put into the transmission. Thus, 10 oz. had ended up in my primary. What are your thoughts?
For the record, I’ve been a long-time (40 year plus) DIY mechanic who has pulled and installed car engines, replaced drive shafts, rebuilt many carburetors, starters and alternators, completed brake jobs including rebuilding wheel cylinders and machining drums and rotors, etc. I’m not even close to being a mechanic, but I’m much more knowledgeable and skilled than the average bike owner.
I would remove the trans side cover and see if your model had the Slinger installed. If not, reassemble and install the primary breather kit. If it does have the slinger, remove, reassemble and install the Primary breather kit.....Doc
My 2019 Roadglide ultra has this problem. Just brought it to my dealer to get the vent kit done. The fluid in the transmission wasn't touching the stick. I pulled the derby cover and oil poured out. Hopefully this problem will be solved. Greg William's makes a fat shift rod to fix this too.
Does he have a website?
@@nickhildabridle1612 macomber county choppers
@@nickhildabridle1612 Macomb county choppers.. sorry for misspell
I bought an 18 Road Glide Special new in April 2018 and had a dealer installed Stage 3 build. Got 48k miles on her now and have had no issues. Can't complain. Thanks for the info Doc.
Thank you! This is the most accurate explanation of the oil migration problem! Bringing my 17 street glide special in ASAP
The vent kit was installed in my RKS 2019 after I noticed no trans oil on dipstick.
I think this problem is more than eventual. Which explain why all 2020 touring have this from factory.
So did the vent kit fix the problem?
Absolutely it was...he's trying to down play it..it happened on my 17' Rgu..there was no fix at the time..just a bunch of maybe this or that..got tired of it n got rid of of it last yr...too bad I did like the ride tho...
I had this issue with my 17 SGS. It would happen at the 1500 miles every time. Harley Davidson documented and then put the kit in. Thank goodness it was still under warranty.
Quality information, thank you. It feels like the motorcycles (rare Touring model) that are experiencing this, is because how they are ridden. Long stretches of Highway miles under heavier loads. Thanks again.
Great explaination of the problem and fixes for the novice. My 17 SGS thankfully doesn't have this issue. My hang up is the fact that even though Harley has identified the problem and developed a fix they make the customer put up with 3 trips back to the dealer and 15,000 miles of riding before they will fix it. Most guys I ride with do their own wrenching and oil changes. If its broke Harley should fix it, period.
Thats Correct ,what owners should do.get together and file a class action law suit
This just happened to my 2019 FLHR with 1000 miles on the ODO _( dry transmission dip-stick checked on side-stand after riding),_ and the dealership told me that are going to install the "kit". The service department said that they rarely ever see this issue ;) Har Har.
Their Lying,its been happining for awhile,again the customer has to suffer
Doc fantastic video!! It's great to have someone explain that's knowledgeable, and doesn't treat the student like a fool.
Racing and wrenching for more than 50 years. Well not racing anymore!! Lol
Thanks again Tom
That was informative Doc. I own. 2019 Ultra Limited and as luck would have it, I had the oil transfer problem and venting kit was put on my bike. This in my opinion could be considered a Mickey Mouse way to fix the problem. I recently learned that a Greg Williams designed new push rod is available with a larger diameter and a flat side. Fixed in ten minutes by the owner and problem solved. Look I love my bike but Harley could have stepped up a hell of a lot better.
Great video, well explained! I don’t know how true it is, but I know a guy that had the issue on his ‘19 SG and said the first sign for him was difficulty shifting gears (likely due to low transmission oil). I assume you wouldn’t notice though unless you lost enough transmission oil over into the primary.
Excellent description of the HD oil transfer problem.....Thanks Doc.
Saying it’s been happening on “a few touring models” seems to also be saying that they don’t want to admit that it should be a recall. THEY’RE MADE EXACTLY THE SAME! ITS AN ASSEMBLY LINE! The only reason they’re saying its happening only here and there is because not everyone does their own oil changes in order to notice. When the dealer does your oil change, do they check what the levels are before they drain each pan? No....that protects them from discovering the problem. I think that Doc Harley should explain why it only happens on some and not all. Doc’s explanation is more information than we’ve ever received from anyone else though.
From what I can see, it's only the hydraulic clutch equipped touring bikes... Most still have the clutch cables, and those bikes don't have this issue. They are not all the same.
@@patrickzambori473 thanks for that information. Something I wasn’t aware of. I fixed my oil transfer with the primary vent so hopefully it stays that way!
Just had the breather "fix" done on my '18 FLTRU at 16.8k miles, at a pre-emptive 20k service prior to a cross country trip coming up. Approx. 10 oz of fluid transferred since 12k mi service. Mine's a 107 w/ S2 Tq Cam, breather, SE tuner.
You mentioned this transfer happened on a few touring models. Which models - 107, 114, 117? On models that were suspect HD engineers could put in a sensor to measure the amount of oil that transfers so they could verify what’s happening.
It did not matter the size of the motor. Nice Engineering suggestion….Doc
My 2020 Ultra came with.......you guessed it.......the primary vent mod already installed.
Always a big help Doc! Thank you for all you do!
To bad they didn't come up with the solution last yr when I owned the 17' Rgu M8..went a couple of times to the dealer n got several possibilities on my migration ..which was 15 oz from trans to primary..after the second try in only 200 miles..drained the primary myself to confirm oil level..needless to say got rid of it an bought a competitor thereafter that does not have this issue with migration ..HD needs to step up on their reliability in their products..n I know of quite a few that had the same issue as I had..by the way I still own a 92' Flhs Evo..solid mill..
Appreciate the detail in your vids, you are always so clear and concise. I'm sticking with my 2013 twin cam...she's solid as a rock haha! 🤘
Yes sir, mine too
Hey Mike !! was You tubing and your video popped up on my Feed, Excellent Video, Nice Job !! I Miss South Carolina, i became an Ast. Manager and then a Dealer manager up here in New England, but because of a health issue i was forced to Retire, i now ride a Honda Goldwing F6C Valkyrie and manage a small independent shop in the summer. Hope Everyone Down there is Well, i'm always talking to people about my time there.
Thank Doc you are the best . Keep it coming.
When I was working on the transmission on my 2009 Dyna I was wondering what kept the oil from the primary and the transmission because of that hole in the shaft the main shaft I asked Harley-Davidson about it but they didn't know so I'm glad I saw this video this explains it perfectly.
I too am a lucky one. 2018 FLHR. 25k service there was only 17oz of fluid in my transmission. The dealer serviced my bike. 15 minutes down the road it started blowing oil out the exhaust to the point I couldn’t see the cars behind me. They are working on it.
2nd time watching this video. This vid helped me diagnose a customers problem in 5 minutes. Parts ordered and repair to come. Thanks for a great heads up video.
Glad it helped....Doc
It is transferring through the clutch rod passage because of vacuum. The breather tube eliminates the vacuum. Harley should definitely cover it under warranty. Most people are buying an aftermarket larger diameter shift rod but it is not made out of hard enough metal and ends up putting fillings in the oil. If you find a cheap low mileage 2018 or 2019 Harley you know that it is transferring bad. This kit will solve the problem but I have to wonder if it will allow condensation to get to the oil in the bike . Harley needs to step up our go out on business.
may i add something to this that they may not have considered? typically the touring models dont get hammered on by old guys like myself, i have a 2020 roadglide limited which comes with the extra vent, i have been sick and havent ridden much in 2 years, i had it serviced at dealer to ride this season, the trans was empty, they corrected the levels, i rode 100 miles, it was empty again, they tore it down and replaced the seals between trans and primary, i rode 100 miles trans was empty again, at this point im wondering what is going on.... I have worked in various car dealerships for 45 years... so i decide to investigate what was going on. the vent installed in the primary was fine, the one on trans cover had an insect in it, travels from high pressure to low..... forcing oil out of trans and into primary, i didnt get oil blowby or oil consumption because i never hammer on it so no visible signs of oil being pushed out of crankcase.
So glad you found the insect in top transmission cover breather tube. Without this open you will continue to have issues. Note to everyone, if your bike sits at rest for a long time check this tube……Doc
@5:40 shows transmission spacer and seal off a 5-speed transmission pulley spacer redesigned in 1994 having more surface contact to support the drive pulley and prevent a different issue H-D was dealing with @the time. That seal on a H-D would NOT prevent oil from entering the primary. that seal failure would result in a puddle on the ground. Oil can ONLY enter the Primary from Transmission through the center of Mainshaft, as you have stated, and the Main Engine Case Seal. I have seen Primary's pour several ounces out thru derby cover and the trans dipstick dry, convincing me the issue lies there. easily 8-12 oz of oil. I've also seen the EXACT same thing on a VENTED 'Band-aid' Primary...Unless the 'WIZZ-BANG 'Tech that performed the Vent Update failed to adjust the Trans fluid. That's Definitely a Possibility... I Honestly Believe the Trans Vent due to it's location, possibly doesn't allow proper venting due to the 'Blender' Affect? H-D was most likely hoping this issue would go away like a Bad Fart...getting lost with all the other nonsense going on in today's world...Great Video's Doc Thanks!!!
How about a video talking about the sumping issue on the M8. I’d love to know the number produced compared to the number of bikes that have had this issue. Great videos Doc.
all you need is that 5th generation M8 oil pump
Thanks doc I appreciate u explaining more in depth about what this all about. I have a 2019 Electra glide standard that had this fluid transfer issue and they had to install this same vent kit at like 275 miles I have a little over 5k on here now and so far so good....but when I asked my dealer what they did they seemed like they didn't wanna say all they said it's been corrected and didn't really explain what they did. Thanks again for this explaintion.
Nice looking Twin Cammed FXRT there, not what you expect to see in a dealer shop Doc,
2019 road glide special. Breather installed from dealer. Just found transfer at 4000 miles. Trying a larger pushrod. Heard it solves the issue. We will see.
Boas Doc, se a Harley Davidson tem este Problema desde pelo menos 2017 até 2020 , a nível mundial deve ser milhares de motos com este problema, as motos ao sair de fabrica já deveria trazer este problema já resolvido ou chamar os clientes as concessionárias para resolver na hora, com isto tudo faz com que os clientes H D pensem duas vezes antes de comprar outra H D .
Cumprimentos.
You say certain models have this issue, which models are they? Thanks!
touring. it seems like the 114s have more trouble with it.
I was unaware of the situation. At 5000 miles when changing fluids I noticed almost no oil in the transmission and it was in the primary. I vented the primary case. Problem solved.
Thank you very much for your explanation. I have this problem on my 2017 road king and they always denied it in Buenos Aires. Today I continue with the same problem but with the pandemic I cannot go 9 months ago and the warranty expired ... Harley Buenos Aires
I have an 18 rgs had the vent put in under warranty at 12000 mls at 17000 working great
Terrifically well explained 👍 ! (As usual dear Doc 😉)
Luckily, on my FLHRCI 2004, I never noticed such transfer oil problem.
At around 65'000 km I had to make changing the shifter shaft seal (leaking)
Thanks for sharing...Doc
What's the difference between sumping and oil transfer? I had to get a new motor because of sumping.
Thanks Doc! Really appreciate the explanation and fix.
Thanks for taking the time to watch our videos....Doc
Doc, this may have been rare a year ago, its well known now. My RK does it and most every bike with a Hydraulic clutch does it. HD needs to recall this and fess up. My dealer wants to charge me 71.00 plus oil for tyranny and chaincase oil change to start out a 1k mile measurement. This is just plain wrong.
Doc you are a good "yes man" for Harley Davidson.
MMMM seems like this comment could be leaning towards sarcasm. I am a Harley-Davidson Tech. That is what I Service and install Harley-Davidson parts that fit. I appreciate you watching..Doc
Stupid question but when changing oil, pull the plug first and then filter when it's about done draining? The reason I ask is because the last video focused on the oil filter and not drain plug.
One of our very early video (7years ago) focused on the drain plug. Personally I have always unscrewed the drain plug first….Doc
@@LowCountryHarleyDavidson TY good sir
HDs customer testing program is amazing.
Where do I sign up?
WE are HD testing program! They cant recreate? Really? Do they not ride their own motorcycles?
It’s a pretty minor issue. BMWs issue usually kill the rider so I guess they aren’t around to complain about it afterwards.
The Mud Dobber Wasp is going to love it! Thanks Motor Co. !!!!!WTF??? Needs a filter on the vent hose.
What I did not hear you say was that at some point in operation ( warm-up, upshift, downshift) the primary is creating a low-pressure condition, thus allowing oil to be drawn into the primary from the clutch- push rod bore in the main shaft. Also, does H-D, contend that opening the chaincase to the atmosphere, solves this problem? I figured the starter and jack-shaft assembly would let enough air pass. Is that area really sealed up now? I did not see a filter on the atmosphere end of the tube supplied in the 26500027 kit. Was it inside of the vent tube? No worry, I have a length of a straw scrubber that I have made robust air filters from in the past. Ed Smith, Cedar Creek Lake, Texas.
Thank you, Doc, for an excellent explanation of an issue that has gotten a lot of lip service and speculation! 👍
Have you experienced success installing the Greg Williams thicker push rod to resolve this problem?
I do not have experience with this product….Doc
I really enjoy your videos... I have a better understanding of how my bike operates. Thank you :-)
Thank you for watching….Doc
I've had 2 M8's both had transfer issues. I think it's more than a few
Thanks for your point of view. Having two Harleys and same issue, I'm sorry. My point of view was world wide numbers...Doc
@@LowCountryHarleyDavidson It happened on my 19 Street Glide, when into the dealer and they didn't have to look up the vent kit ,they when right in and grabbed one off the shelf like it happens all the time,Harley should cover this, it cost me $300 to have the vent kit installed because of Harleys fuckup
I have a 2009 ultra classic. It is leaking. between the motor and the transmission on the top is there a gasket thank you
Yes there is a gasket between engine and transmission….Doc
Simply put, the dense air/oil mist inside the transmission is being pushed through the transmission mainshaft by the pressure differential between the transmission housing, vented to the atmosphere, and the lower pressure in the primary housing. In this case, reducing the differential by venting the primary housing was a solution; although these questions remain; why does the pressure differential exist and how substantial is it?
This video mentioned the early Big Twin, dry clutch 4-speed transmissions transferring oil through the mainshaft, resulting in a well-oiled dry clutch. A worn clutch pushrod seal was mentioned as causing the oiled clutch. The early dry clutch and late Twin-Cam and M8 machines share a common symptom, but for different reasons.
The reason for oil transfer through the mainshaft on a `65 to Early 1984, 4-speed is twofold. By design, the primary housing of these machines operated at a negative pressure. A special vacuum gauge service tool, calibrated in inches of water, is used to measure the operating vacuum in these primary housings. The transmission, vented to the atmosphere, operates a higher pressure than the primary housing. The clutch pushrod seal is one of several components tasked with maintaining the lower operating pressure inside the primary housing of these machines. Without this seal the negative operating pressure in the primary housing would be lost through the transmission vent.
The second factor that would guarantee oil transfer through the mainshaft of these early machines was overfilling the transmission. When the oil level of the 4-speed is sufficient to partially or completely fill the center of the mainshaft, due to the pressure differential between the transmission and primary housings, the pushrod oil seal was insufficient to prevent oil transfer. It is also worth mentioning that the dry clutch in these machines was open and exposed to the oil mist used to lubricate the primary chain; over time they would always become oiled and would require periodic cleaning, but that’s another story.
With the introduction of the Big Twin wet clutch, it was no longer necessary to rely on the engine to provide a lower operating pressure inside of the primary housing, so going forward the primary housing was sealed from engine and now relied on venting through the transmission mainshaft. This method worked well for decades. While there may have been some pressure differential between the transmission and primary housing, until recently it wasn’t substantial enough to transfer a significant amount of fluid.
There is no question that the lower pressure inside the primary housing on these late model machines is being generated by the engine. How much pressure is being generated and why would be great subjects for video.
hey doc, should i worry or not - i know the sportster is different set up but just makin sure bro about this oil transfer video
Dale Masyk doesn’t apply, unless your sporty has a M8 lol
I've noticed/check brand new Harley touring bikes have the vent kit install from the factory.
Very informative! Although for the Harley guys I’ve talked to locally with the issue, they would have not made it to the 5k mike inspection interval because the transfer was so great.
I'm having this same problem but with a Fat Boy 2008 engine. Twin can 96B. Would you have any suggestions in this case? Thank you very much.
This would be rare....Documantation is the first step...take notes of oil in each for three oil changes...must be done straight up on level platform. Is your bike stock? Has it been lowered in the back only? Having the bike angled to the rear can sometimes gather Trans fluid at the main shaft. Then while the bike is on the jiffy stand oil flows through the main shaft to Primary....Doc
All original suspension and angles bicycle. I made these notes transfers an average of 400ml of oil from the gearbox to the primary. The bike is used for a short period of time. This problem I noticed after replacing the basket hub and compensator for an eliminator. Oil transfers through the clutch actuation rod. A mechanic made a breather in the primary, solved the transfer but through this breather now leaks oil from the primary. Could any solutions adopted in M8 serve for M6? For example kit 36300028 or a larger diameter shaft.