Awesome video. It was great to see someone take a stab at a V2.4 /Vcore3 comparison. Only thing I would disagree with was in the maintenance, the V2 is designed to use off the shelf components so replacement parts should be readily available
Minor note about the idle timer. you can actually set what it does gcode wise when it switches to idle. that means you can have it never turn of motors and only turn off heaters or even only turn off the hot end.
Now you have to build a Trident, and do V-Core vs. Trident! I'm leaning heavily toward the Trident, but as someone who mostly prints PLA, the RatRig being available as a full kit endorsed by the creators at larger available print volumes is tempting.
@@kerbodynamicx472 PC will be fine if your print chamber is hot enough to get good layer adhesion. PA12CF should also work, although I would stay away from PA6 as it creeps a lot more. You could use PA6CF if you seal all the parts by e.g. sealing them with a thic coat of spray paint
Thanks for the great video. I was waiting on how final part would look like and it’s amazing how you finished the video telling what to get in which situation!
I'm building a Rat Rig V-Core and I've asked a few questions on Discord and I've been amazed how helpful people have been. Even when I made a stupid error in downloading part files, the people on Discord where still really nice about setting me straight.
Our discord community is just about 18 months old. Most of the "old-timers" on the server have been in your shoes a year ago, so don't think you are the first to make stupid mistakes, we did similar stuff before. I openly admit that I mounted my first EVA toolhead 180° reversed (with just a top rail that's easy to get wrong :-) abd spent at least an hour doing it again :)
[RatRig] I didn't hear you mention your ground on the frame, this is something I did with mine too, but Rat Rig doesn't mention it in their instructions. I think Rat Rig wants to distance them selfs from the AC side of things to avoid lawsuits but this should be provided and not something I have to drill a hole for.
As for safe shutdown, you can implement it yourself by having a push (or sensor) button somewhere on the printer + a relay + a simple led. All could be connected to something like ESP32 or similar microcontroller (always powered on). Initially ESP32 would have a relay in the 'off' state (everything is shutdown). You press the button, ESP32 detects a button press from the shutdown state and sends a signal to the relay to turn on. Also led starts blinking. Everything starts to boot up, etc. Once RPI starts up, there can be a tiny daemon that just sends an impulse every second or so to a GPIO pin that is connected to ESP32. This is how ESP32 could monitor if a RPI is "alive". Once it started to receive those "pings" regularly, it will flip the led to a "permanent on" and it will now monitor for the signal to continue. From now on the system is "up". Once we press the button from the "up" state (potentially a long press to avoid accidents), ESP32 will initiate a shutdown sequence by sending a shutdown signal to RPI on another GPIO, which is then picked up by the same daemon that sends the "pings" and it would initiate the RPI Linux shutdown. Led will start blinking again. Once we stopped receiving "pings" for a while, we now can declare a "shutdown" and turn off the relay. Led becomes permanently off and that's the cycle. There are a couple more things to consider if ESP32 goes bust, we would need a physical bypass switch that would keep the system on regardless on the ESP32 (will effectively just send 5V to the relay control pin). Power off in this case could be done by just removing the plug from the wall socket. That all maybe sounds convoluted, particularly if you didn't invest into playing with ESP32s very much, but it's really quite simple, ESPHome project could do.a majority of work, you would just need a little bit of yaml config. ESPHome effectively simply generates the Arduino application based on the provided config of the supported components (plenty). Additional benefit of such a solution is that ESP32 itself is WiFi-enabled device, so you can do the startup and shutdown remotely.
For the issue regarding a power off button, use a momentary pushbutton trigger the shutdown event. You can either feed the RPi from a power brick and the rest of the printer from the main PSU using a mechanical relay to control it. Or use a WiFi smart plug to schedule the smart plug power off and shutdown the RPi before the plug shuts off. I added both on mine as I can use the PSU only when required, for lower power consumption and the smart plug when shutting down octoprint or emergency/fire stop
I have been waiting so hard for this video, and the wait was dann worth it! Incredible work with so much Information packed into one hour of pure unbiased insights. Estimated shipping time on my vcore3 is next week, so this video is quite hyping me up for the build🙌 Thanks for sharing your experiences with these two great machines, I think (and hope lol) you can't go wrong with either of them
One note about the open source section: RatRig is not truly open source in the copyleft sense because it has a CC-BY-NC-SA license (NonCommercial restricts usage). Voron uses GPLv3, which, while not really the best license for a hardware design, is fully copyleft. Ideally, they would both use a true open hardware license such as CERN OHL.
This only changed recently after I published this. From my conversations with them they will protect themselves from large commercial copying but not hobbyist and individuals selling mods and stuff. Obviously I can't guarantee that, but it's my current understanding.
Well done sir. This actually sets you up quite well for a followup video in 6mo to a year, especially since a lot of the deficits of the Voron are going to be fixed with Stealthburner and will make for an interesting then and now video in the future. One other note, when you look into klicky, one of the best features of it actually solves the endstop issue you were having, it's a auto-z offset script, it will ping the nozzle off the z endstop, pick up the probe, ping the probe off the bed, then ping the probe body off the z endstop, do some fancy math automatically and set a perfect Z offset every time regardless of bed/chamber temps.
Finally an apples to apples comparison, nice work Adam! That RatOS shoutout made me blush 😂😍 22:12 what you want is something like the Sonoff Pow R2. Flash it with Tasmota and configure it under a [power] section in Moonraker. You then need a dedicated 5V PSU for the Raspberry Pi. Wire everything except the 5V psu through the Tasmota and the 5V psu straight to the IEC plug. You can wire up a physical switch to trigger it as well if you want to. 26:23 this really surprised me as well. I guess there's yet another reason most of us use the P&F probes at this point (Super Pinda / Vinda / SupCR etc) :D I didn't see you account for thermal drift though, it's not "noise at higher temperature" it's a drift in trigger distance with temperature, thats why it doesn't impact your standard deviation or range. In the case of thermal drift i would expect the BL Touch (and the P&F probes especially) to outperform the ... is it Omron?.. inductive probe on the V2.4. We do still improve the V-Core 3 design in the dev team! The full enclosure was released not too long ago, the idlers have been upgraded, and there are more that i can't talk about at this time :D Rest assured, improvements are happening regularly, and it will continue! Very nice review though! I enjoyed watching it! If i had to complain about something it would be the v1 dragon which might have skewed things a little bit with the stringing, but it is what it is :) I'm gonna end things with a little notice about RatOS. It'll support pretty much any printer and any hardware, it's not limited to Rat Rig machines, so if the Voron team (or other printer devs/companies for that matter) wants their machines supported, reach out to me! Thanks for the kind words Adam! :)
As a mechanical engineer of about 13 years now in the tech industry working on a wide variety of consumer Electonics products and research devices I can say that the first thing I do with any CAD model that I receive is remove the entire part history/feature tree. It's a lot like code. It's usually a chaotic mess and I absolutely don't want to be corrupted by any garbage modeling techniques or hacking and whacking of CAD that was done to create the model. Providing a .STEP file is plenty, IMO, to consider the project "open source."
I installed the ABBN mod on my 2.4 a couple of weeks ago to improve PLA printing. Haven't printed a single part in PLA since then, haven't even tried how much of an improvement ABBN is... For people like me that print a lot of ABS the 2.4 is a really good buy.
i switched to Stealthburner (which implemented the Airflow Changes of the ABBN, plus little modifications) and works excellent for PLA, a whole nother league compared to the stock afterburner.
@@mongini1 Duly noted. Tooling up to build a Voron, and while I don't plan on printing a whole lot of PLA, I'd still like to have the option to do it well. My Ender 3v2 had a truly monstrous cooling setup that sounded like a fighter jet spooling up for takeoff when the fans kicked on that basically didn't require any supports. I don't expect that level of parts cooling out of something I mostly plan to use for industrial filaments, but being able to do some rapid prototyping on a budget would be nice.
I'm building a v0.1 and as for shutdown of the pi, I think I'm going to make a graceful shutdown circuit that will detect power loss and shut down the pi before losing power. Might be something to consider.
UPS hat for RPi's aren't that expensive and a momentary switch and a few lines of code is all that's needed to shut down a pi safely without log in, both a UPS and two Momentary switches should be included with the Voron BOM's or listen as optional (shut down button and restart button), Klipper should also include the bash script or a link to a good one for the shutdown and or restart.
When I decided to build a premium printer (2years ago) all the sites for the kits, Voron and Hypercube had a large list of the kit componants out of stock, combining that with the reports of many parts being very poor quality and having to be replaced I decided to go a different route and decided on a completley different build, the Pro 3D V-King 400, although the wreere spreadsheets of parts and suppliers I decided to use the very best parts I could lay my hands on and so sourced them myself, this resulted in an increased build price but I had the benefit of only buying and building once and if I had any problems I could contact the designer Roy anytime, as it happens I did not need to consult Roy as his build video's covered everything in an easily understandable way and so I have a printer that I have not had to repair or upgrade and am 100% confident in, I can load up a file press print and leave it to do its thing and turn out wonderful quality parts!
I power my Pi from a dedicated 5VDC power supply and added the GPIO plugin to OctoPrint and a relay board. That will allow you to shut down all power to heater and printer board using the GPIO controlled relay board. I use a 4 channel relay board but really only need 1 or 2 channels, 1 for printer board supply and the second for AC powered bed heater. Just remember the Pi uses 3.3v for GPIO so google how to configure the relay boards for use with the Pi. Just a matter of removing the jumper for vcc and connecting 5v for relay coil power and 3.3v to power the control section.
my V-Core 3 has been shipped early this week. I should receive the parts next week. Gonna source the rest over the next few months. Can't wait to build that thing
I really want this printer! Thank you for the video. Watching, bouncing back and forth, taking notes, etc. Need to figure which one I should invest into.
Screws: Zinc plating does not tell the screw's rating at all, can hide anything inside. Typically 8.8, but can also be 4.9 AKA cheese grade. Black ones on the other hand are high carbon steel which i guess is part of the reason they are black on top of some kind of treatment and should be 12.9 rated. But who knows what you get when buying from China. That being said, i've used many chinese suppliers for M2-M5 screws, nuts and bolts etc. and all have been top quality so far. Biggest issue being that sometimes it's hard to see black size markings worn out, with black contents :)
Thank you. Really well done comparison. Shows that both are high quality machines. I agree with your points on safety. RR should have a cover for all mains voltage stuff to keep kids fingers out. I also see the you now need to test out some of the cooling mods for both printers. SuperSniffles Dual 5015 fan mod is very popular on the Rat Rig and allows you to push the PLA speeds a bit faster and sounds like there are some good cooling mods for the Vorons to. Your right Mikkel has done some excellent work on RatOS which makes the printer viable for someone like myself who otherwise could not invest the time to learn the details of Klipper.
Great video Good points I love the V-Core 3 design, for the tree legged design of the build plate Thanks for sharing your experiences with all of us :-)
Building a cross between these two as this was posted, the cost for a full set of ratrig metal plates was around £100 + postage, I sourced 4mm aluminium plate at 500x500, and used around 2/3's of it, at a cost of £35 delivered, cutting, drilling and finishing 20 corner plates and the others took around 12 hours over a few days, (I have more time than money), it was a lot of work, all this was done using a very small bandsaw and bench top band saw, lot of work but some how much more rewarding. - I now yearn for a desktop CNC :)
Hi Adam, thanks for this very extensive and open comaprison :) Just a few comments - I am still watching and adding here as I go through the video: a.) As the maintainer of the RR-printer profiles I disagree with your evaluation on the profiles. The modern research on functional parts has shown, that thicker support lines don't result in stronger parts. The modern approach is: For strong parts, use more hull - more or thicker perimeters, more bottom and top layers. The function of the infill is mostly to ensure the top layers print well. To achieve this, you want lots of lines, not thick lines. It's also the reason why modern infills like adaptive cubic infill were invented. They are dense close to perimeters and get less and less dense toward the center of objects. Another approach: Think of the top layer as a huge bridged layer. The more often you support this huge bridge, the better it will look. Thick lines won't help with that, but many lines will. b.) Regarding the deviation differences: I don't want to argue with the numnbers. I just consider the numbers on both printers as excellent. The gold standard for Z on FDM printers is that repeatability should be better than 0.01mm for perfect results, and both printers meet this standard both hot and cold. Yes, there is a difference - but it's negigible for printing results.
Are you saying that a fairer comparison would be to compare print times for 20% infill on RR to 40% infill on Voron? (or whatever draws the same number of lines
@@Vector3DP What I say is: All these profiles are templates. You decide if you want strong functional prints or save plastic and time. Going heavy with thick lines and 40% infill serves neither of these purposes. For strong parts, use more and thicker perimeter lines, not thicker infill.
I was thinking to make one... Now I really don't want to get into this trouble, I'll wait for the bambolab one to come out.. :) Thanks for the video! Great work buddy!
To prevent the z-steppers to go idle, you simply could connect the !EN pin of the stepper drivers to ground instead to the corsponding I/O pin. There is normaly no need for the z-motors to go idle, unless while tinkering (but this should be done while the printer is off anyway). So imho no big deal. I actually did this on an old bedslinger and it worked well.
The Voron trident seems to be direct competition with the rat rig v core 3. They both have kinematic beds for leveling. Perhaps a new apples to apples comparison ??? More content 😉
An additioanl reccomendation if you want a cheap entry to printing ABS and printing quite fast, an ender 3 can be turned into a switchwire, there are voron user mods that do this, and the switchwire design is enclosable and very compact for an enclosed bedslinger. My current ABS printer is a clone prusa mk2 running klipper in an ikea lack enclosure, with and afterBEARner hotend/XZ assembly. Prusa frame is a bit flimsy and prints look bad with an acceleration above 1000mm/s/s, but it's my way in to bootstrapping myself into a voron. I'm just using cheap correx panels on the lack box and it works ok BUT it takes up more space than a 350mm voron for a prusa mk2 or creality ender 3 size bed, at which point if space is at a premium, the voron 2.4 and trident look very very good.
@@phoenixrising4573 the original ender 3 with the 20mm centre section need a lot of different parts, the pro and v2 are perhaps better supported and more active, but there is a v1 mod on voronusers, and a small but active channel in the voron discord. The v1 mod uses one less linear rail and is probably less annoying to build, lining up the two rails for the v2 y is annoying.
@@phoenixrising4573 You can print ABS no problem with Ender 3 v1 enclosed. Some people do it with cardboard box, I have a tent. Already printed 75% of the Voron 2.4 parts without issues.
From my experience the extra hardened "12.9" screws which you see mostly with black coating are superior to the zinc coated ones in terms of strength and especially robustness against stripping the heads. So I can especially recommend them for applications where you move them daily/weekly. They can be 5-10 times more expensive though... How it is with the corrosion resistance I cannot say unfortunately, since I don't work in a damp cellar where 3D printers sometimes get placed.
After about a year of staying out of 3D printing news, I pretty much immediately stumbled over these two beastly beauties about a month ago. By the time I actually have the funds to spare for either of them, we'll probably be on the successor models, but just to air my dreams into the aether: I want an IDEX, and while there are obviously easier (mod and stock) options out there, I've quite fallen in love with the idea of turning a Voron 2.4 into one (with Rapido UHF hotends and Zodiac Pro nozzles). I'll have to wait until the Voron IDEX Project not only matures in general, but also adapts to the 2.x style, though, anyway, as I really don't trust that I'd be able to overcome the challenges from scratch. And my ultimate dream project to end all projects is simply put turning a V-Core 3 into a Jubilee (with two Revos, a Chimera, a Cyclops, and a couple of tools). I haven't even looked into how exactly to best merge the two yet, though, due to the cost. Anyway, I probably ought to get some experience building a core-XY before either of the above. I'm heavily eyeing a Voron 0.1 for this, but I'm waiting for kits to come with an SKR Pico out of the box. (Hotend-wise, part of me wants to go Rapido UHF with Zodiac Pro as well, but it's so tiny, Dragonfly BMO with Zodiac CRB should more than suffice.)
I’m admittedly weak in CoreXY knowledge. I’m printing with a bed slinger, Anet A8Plus, my first printer and over the last 24 months or so have learned quite a bit. I’m an engineer by trade and as such thoroughly enjoyed building / assembling the kit so I’m not intimidated regarding such things. I’ve been studying CoreXY for a bit. I’m leaning towards the Voron for multiple reasons. I have to ask though as I haven’t come across it yet. What is IDEX? Yeah, I’ll be googling it when I click submit on this but, wanted to get your take on it since it sounds like it’s tops on your radar. Thanks.
In terms of the safe shutdown button, i was planning on using a raspberry pi PowerBlock you can get from Pi Hut and wire that up though an additional SSR so you can have a push button power button which starts the machine but also safe shutdowns the pi host and then kills power when pressed
I think the safe shutdown is maybe more of an issue of how Raspberry Pis are designed. When you shut down a PC with the power button due to the nature of how ATX works, that button is merely sending a signal to the motherboard to do the next step. A single quick push has the board tell Windows to shut down(id imagine on Linux it can issue a halt command to the OS), The long push forces the board to cut power. What would have to be seen is if there is a way to do this on a Pi, Perhaps someone could find a way to make a plugin for Klipper and OctoPrint that watches a specific set of GPIO ports, hook a momentary switch to those and it sends a shutdown command to the program and the circuit is closed. Another idea could be a separate 5v power supply running the Pi only and split off the AC input. Switched main power in runs direct to 5V PSU powering a USB for the Pi, Then you have a leg running to another switch and this switch runs out to the SSR and main PSU for the printer. You could in theory cut this switch terminating power to the main PSU and heated bed circuits while keeping the Pi hot. I would imagine you would need to click reconnect in Klipper on powering up the main system side of things as the main PSU is often what drives the controller board. Finally there is just running clipper on a small factor PC like those book sized ones you often see at POS terminals as I have heard you can run Klipper on Linux and that these little PCs can even drive multiple instances and multiple printers. With this you could power off any printer at any time.
Having just built a Voron 2.4 I can say that it's much more impressive after building. I have built other extrusion based printers and they do not begin to compare. Only real complaints about the build are the belt clamp location, lack of bolt(s) holding the two front idlers together, belts running too close to Y rails and Z belts running a bit close to extrusion as well. Also seems like the lower Z belt clamp could be better designed but I see why they did it this way in an effort to reduce parts as the Voron has about 10 times as many as say a C-Bot that I have built. Once the gantry was assembled and mounted to the Z though, my machine had zero racking right out of the gate and adjusting the belt tension helps "tune" the belt tension to avoid belt tension induced racking. The two X rails I expected to be an issue were not. This may be because my kit came with genuine hiwin rails and I'd suggest anyone looking at a Voron to skimp wherever except the rails as CoreXYs thrive on rails matching each other.
Really good comparison. I received my first Rat Rig (400mm cube ) in May of 2021. It has been such a good printer that I ordered a second (500 mm cube) and am almost done with assembly. For me the size and getting all of the parts I wanted from one source made my decision. I am using the Octopus on both, and an OmniaDrop hot end direct drive
@@toppyweb Not really, but they are usually set up differently. I start an upgrade on one and when finished do the second. They are really the same printer, just different bed size. The real secret to me is the bed mount and 3 point independent Z axis. When tramming the corners on either is within .02 mm, so that is very "level" the bed mesh on both is a 7 x 7 using an EZABL from TH3D and have really good first layers. I don't run them fast, am more worried about quality and the ability to print really big. I have two Bambu printers for small and speed.
Quick side note... I now have 350 hours on my Voron with only one failure cause of a temp mistake. It just prints and with the quad leveling its just click print and come back later when its done. Been the best printer that I have ever had, no need to tinker just design and iterate.
@@mikew6052 There is no bed leveling on the voron, instead, it does a QGL which typically you would run every print, It has 4 Z-axis each with its own independent stepper motor, the QGL process tests the height against the bed for each corner and adjusts, aligning the floating gantry to the bed. The bed itself has no adjustment at all and is completely static. I just built my voron, but I am expecting it to have no problem with large prints.
You missed an important bit of the Voron support: there is a ticketing system in place which will bring your issues to the eyes of dedicated volunteers or the engineering team on a case by case basis. You get a private channel to discuss and solve the issue.
regarding always on Power to the pi, you can make that fairly easy: Just get a IEC 14 power socket with a switch, you can then wire it so that your 5v power supply goes directly from the inlet end everything else goes through the switch. I am planning to do that via a zigbee controllable relay.
I don’t what mini displays rat rig uses, but for voron, since 2.4 released in 2020, you can turn off pi with the small black button (just right below the dial knob of mini12864).
Sadly, whilst building my Vcore3, I had to contact their support because some of the electronics parts arrived not working. I got zero response from them. In the end I had to source replacements elsewhere.
I don't think the noise is becuase of using idler instead of bearing. On ratrig, the xy motion parts are mount directly on the frame with bunch of bolt. On v2 the the xy motion marts are mount on floating gantry that only mount to the linearrail block with 4 semi-tighten bolts, vibration is somewhat isolation from the motor/idlers to the printer frame.
Great detailed explanation between two amazing machines. 1 item specific to Z HOP using those couplers on the RatRig. Do they flex/bounce? You may be able to see the flex within the red material in the couplers around the 56 (ish) minute mark on the RatRig? Based on my experience using this style of coupler, disable/slow down the Z hop. This connection can cause the bed to become misaligned as the material in the couplers degrade over time. I found I frequently replace them (several times) a year for best performance. I hope these hold up for you a longer time. Your prints from both look fantastic, excellent review!
you could go for steppers with integrated Lead Screws... doesnt really get better than that. If you get straight ones, lube them well and replace the nut now and then, they will serve you a very very long time :D
RE: Fans, I hear you! It's been my #1 issue with 3d printers as well. IIRC, one of the Voron dev team members reached out to a well-known fan manufacturer about a custom design. It was something like $100k up front cost for tooling, and a commitment of 10000 orders @ $12/fan. So, having a custom fan is costly with today's manufacturing costs.
Great video. On the desire to be able to manage powering off the Raspberry PI in a controlled way, without logging into the web interface, I'm actively working on a solution for that. Currently waiting on parts to arrive, with testing to follow. Hope to have a product out early next year. I'll post in Discord when I have a better handle on time frame and availability.
@54:56 AB:BN and Steathburner are both designed by BadNoob.. well, the computational fluid dynamics were done by BadNoob and the appearance was done by Wile.e.. they both did an absolutely fantastic job ;)
@@bubnikv I can't tell you how to spend your hard earned, I can only tell you what I know. I'm currently running a dragon standard flow on one of my modded machines using an EVA carriage and it is brilliant.. And at the same time I am about to take the plunge and buy all the parts for a voron trident (but I do still have plans to make a v-core in the near future 😅). The Stealthburner should be out by the end of December with everything going well 😉
Great information here. I have been researching the MercuryOne.1 Hydra but I think that the docs aren't developed enough for someone as new to printing as I am. I Voron 2.4r2 with stealthburner and maybe the 3030 extrusions and 9mm belts of the RatRig looks nice to me. I also like RatOS and they are currently working on a profile for the Voron using the Manta M8P board and CB! proccy that I would like to use.
I have hard time deciding between these two. The main benefit on the Rat Rig seems to be the automatic bed leveling, but I am not sure if it's worth the extra cost and space.
Yes. Plus, Voron specifies 80% power to heat the bed while the Rat Rig doesn't have this limit. You could remove that limit on the Voron, but it's likely done for safety.
You can put a relay on the main power and run it to a pi pinout then make a pi cron job that looks at another pin where you put a button to detect a high or low and then switch the relay off. You can also create a macro in klipper that can turn everything on again which you can put in your start script. This will require you to put the klipper controller onto the pi too (something you may have done already if you use input shaping)
I’m not even sure all that’s worth it. If you’re keeping the Raspi running, it alone (well, also with power supply inefficiency) draws about 5W (I have a Rpi 4). If you keep everything else powered on (but heaters, steppers, and any LED lIghts off), it adds maybe 1-2W. So I’d recommend either having a solution that shuts down the OS and then powers down everything (to get to near 0W), or just leaving the printer on all the time where it will consume 8.6W idle (including C920 webcam).
@@fredhamilton1701 you can put that on a button to the GPIO too, then you can just make the Pi turn on the relay to turn on everything else at startup. When it turn off the pins will go low and it will turn everything off automatically.
Nice looking Printers, As for the filament, Wow the price is twice as much as for what I pay for PLA+ I would buy this filament But I cant ask the customers to pay twice as much for what they are used to.
21:00 - @Vector3d, that to me is a plus. Not having all those do-dads makes the for less things to go wrong with the machine. In addition, many of those things (like filament runout) don't work particularly well on other 3d printers.
Its not obvious, but there is actually a ticketing system on the Voron discord, which means you will only get answers from the devs and not random people. I haven't tried it so I don't know what the response time is like.
You mentioned not being able to clean the bed with IPA (Voron I think). So what do you clean it with? Also it looked like this bed has a fairly course texture that would impact the print finish? Great video - thanks for making it.
you put water on paper towel, heat the bed and steam clean it. The 3D Prima is very rough, the filaprint RS is nothing like that, but not as smooth as glass
"The stock firmware has no implementation methods for creating a bed mesh". I think that's at best a bit misleading because mesh creation is an intrinsic part of Klipper. So what is it that it doesn't have? Out of the box, Klipper doesn't have a front end, but one could craft a gcode file and upload it. But either way Klipper does really need some sort of web front end to even make it basically usable. Once you have that, you also have an easy way to create and manage bed meshes. It is exactly the same situation for either printer.
Ratrig has everything for creating bed mesh preconfigured, you just press one button and it does it pretty much. For voron, all the tools are there, its the same firmware, you just have to do it yourself.
I may be a bit optimistic, but I kinda want a CoreXY Kit but I'm not sure what to get since it would be my second 3D Printer ever, my first being the Snapmaker 2.0. Now I'm wondering if I should go for a Voron or a Ratrig. Or should I go for a cheaper system for the start like the Seckit SK-Go?
I wanted to have a readonly pi, so basically pi after booting off an sd-card doesn't remount the filesystem in read-write mode, then uses overlay RAM filesystem, networked files, this sort of thing, so no writes to the card, doesn't corrupt the filesystem as it doesn't write to it, but as i found out, for some reason, pi loves killing SD-Cards when powered off brutally. And maybe i don't even mind filesystem corruption so much, as i can just reimage the card. But now i have an SD-Card that is stuck in a read-only mode - absolutely unrelated to my experiments for sure, just something that happened on an impolite power loss for whatever hardware or boot firmware reasons, and has the last thing that was on it permanently etched into it. I seem to work around the read-only lock in software and erase the stuff, but when i take the card out and put it back in, everything is still on there as it was! I'll need some heavier machinery to try to analyse that card. Not only am i out of 4€ for the card, but it was also a pretty colour.
"Stock" voron 2.4 afterburner is set up for ABS cooling, look at the AB-BN mod, or the upcoming afterburner stealth (based on AB-BN). Both use a bigger 5015 fan and have better duct designs. Threre's Stabby/LoudOwl if you require dual 5015, but AB-BN has been enough for me on my open PLA printer.
And a minute after I said this you namechecked them. Yes, do try. I've tried a warbird duct and another 5015 mod, and that worked well but the duct was quite fragile and prone to warping. What i really like about afterburner is it's really modular and easy to work on. I have 4 hotends that get swapped between two printers, and I've got dual extruder single hotend bowden system that I can swap in for decorative dual colour parts.
The new voron stealthburner toolhead is crazy good. Like better overhangs with its single 5015 than I'm getting with dual 5015s on a Hydra toolhead for ender3.
They do make and I have a switch that will run a script to power down the Pi. Press momentary switch, script runs, Pi shuts down. Then you can hit a second switch to kill the mains if you like.
I use octo touch on my pi4 with the 3.5"tft touch screen so I don't need to use my phone or laptop to shut down. It's onscreen! It's good for quickly changing nozzle Temps and bed Temps and pausing prints and shutting down. Other than that I hardly use it. Love octoprint on my heavy modded ender 3 v1. Want to try kipper for the accelerometer feature for tuning when I print above 60mm/s my absolute max I can print using Marlin and micro Swiss hotend is 100mm/s with minimal fuss Wich anything above 40mm before my upgrades was only dreamed of! Tpu I can print 50mm/s max with ok quality. Want a voron so badly and is next on my list!
Good video, thanks for the subjective information. What I'm taking from this is I'm right to wait for the Prusa XL and see what that brings as for the price I think it will be a more complete printer and better supported than the Voron or the Rat-Rig.
I'm in the same boat. There's just a bit too much to go wrong here when I just want a good reliable printer that I don't have to fight with to get working. I've been struggling with poor quality Chinese printers for too long and want a break. Wish the XL was out sooner.
@@BH4x0r Arguable. It seems great, but the company's attitude is a dealbreaker for me. The most basic printers these days have a good thermal runaway protection that comes into play within 20-30 seconds. The Bambu doesn't activate for 3 minutes and can heat up to 450'C. The temp at which PLA can catch fire is around 380. The company's response to this was indifferent / it's working as intended. If anything else bad turns up / you run into issues with the proprietary hardware, you're entirely reliant on them to help you. If they don't you're screwed.
@@user-tj7xr6xd9z There are videos out there about it that have literally nothing to do with Prusa, just a displeased Bambu owner. What crawled up your ass?
The Ratrig is available in 500x500 and the Voron can be configured with a "custom" size. Is it fine, if I just configure it to be 500x500? There doesn't seem to be many people having bigger Vorons.
What is the point of cutting the neutral when at the main box for the home the neutral and ground are combined anyways and the ground will always be connected and therefore your neutral is still connected.
![V-Core 3 Vs Voron 2.4 Review [Shortened]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZAN9zTTPUq8/mqdefault.jpg)
![V-Core 3 Vs Voron 2.4 Review [Shortened]](/img/tr.png)
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
To support my work and check out my Califlower or other products go to www.vector3d.co.uk
Awesome video. It was great to see someone take a stab at a V2.4 /Vcore3 comparison.
Only thing I would disagree with was in the maintenance, the V2 is designed to use off the shelf components so replacement parts should be readily available
Minor note about the idle timer. you can actually set what it does gcode wise when it switches to idle. that means you can have it never turn of motors and only turn off heaters or even only turn off the hot end.
Now you have to build a Trident, and do V-Core vs. Trident!
I'm leaning heavily toward the Trident, but as someone who mostly prints PLA, the RatRig being available as a full kit endorsed by the creators at larger available print volumes is tempting.
As for myself I built a Voron as I print mainly ABS and having the full enclosure has been fantastic!
Quick question, will CF nylon and polycarbonate work as Voron parts than ABS? These materials are a good deal tougher…
@@kerbodynamicx472 same question, especially CFPA, but the influence of moisture absorption should still be investigated
@@kerbodynamicx472 PC will be fine if your print chamber is hot enough to get good layer adhesion. PA12CF should also work, although I would stay away from PA6 as it creeps a lot more. You could use PA6CF if you seal all the parts by e.g. sealing them with a thic coat of spray paint
Thanks for the great video. I was waiting on how final part would look like and it’s amazing how you finished the video telling what to get in which situation!
I'm building a Rat Rig V-Core and I've asked a few questions on Discord and I've been amazed how helpful people have been.
Even when I made a stupid error in downloading part files, the people on Discord where still really nice about setting me straight.
Our discord community is just about 18 months old. Most of the "old-timers" on the server have been in your shoes a year ago, so don't think you are the first to make stupid mistakes, we did similar stuff before. I openly admit that I mounted my first EVA toolhead 180° reversed (with just a top rail that's easy to get wrong :-) abd spent at least an hour doing it again :)
What was the error you made in downloading part files??
[RatRig] I didn't hear you mention your ground on the frame, this is something I did with mine too, but Rat Rig doesn't mention it in their instructions. I think Rat Rig wants to distance them selfs from the AC side of things to avoid lawsuits but this should be provided and not something I have to drill a hole for.
2:47 fluidd is not the only web interface for voron. Also you can use Galileo and LGX, not only clockwork as extruder. And the Z belts are 9mm
Yep, thanks for pointing these things out. I had a lot to think about on this one as you can probably tell so missed a couple of things.
Well since I got pinned I may add other comments later. Feel free to highjack this comment if you noticed other inaccuracies.
@@Vector3DP yeah of course it's impossible to be 100% percent accurate on a 1h video packed with information
and now we got the Stealthburner 😍😍
As for safe shutdown, you can implement it yourself by having a push (or sensor) button somewhere on the printer + a relay + a simple led. All could be connected to something like ESP32 or similar microcontroller (always powered on).
Initially ESP32 would have a relay in the 'off' state (everything is shutdown). You press the button, ESP32 detects a button press from the shutdown state and sends a signal to the relay to turn on. Also led starts blinking. Everything starts to boot up, etc.
Once RPI starts up, there can be a tiny daemon that just sends an impulse every second or so to a GPIO pin that is connected to ESP32. This is how ESP32 could monitor if a RPI is "alive". Once it started to receive those "pings" regularly, it will flip the led to a "permanent on" and it will now monitor for the signal to continue. From now on the system is "up".
Once we press the button from the "up" state (potentially a long press to avoid accidents), ESP32 will initiate a shutdown sequence by sending a shutdown signal to RPI on another GPIO, which is then picked up by the same daemon that sends the "pings" and it would initiate the RPI Linux shutdown. Led will start blinking again.
Once we stopped receiving "pings" for a while, we now can declare a "shutdown" and turn off the relay. Led becomes permanently off and that's the cycle.
There are a couple more things to consider if ESP32 goes bust, we would need a physical bypass switch that would keep the system on regardless on the ESP32 (will effectively just send 5V to the relay control pin). Power off in this case could be done by just removing the plug from the wall socket.
That all maybe sounds convoluted, particularly if you didn't invest into playing with ESP32s very much, but it's really quite simple, ESPHome project could do.a majority of work, you would just need a little bit of yaml config. ESPHome effectively simply generates the Arduino application based on the provided config of the supported components (plenty).
Additional benefit of such a solution is that ESP32 itself is WiFi-enabled device, so you can do the startup and shutdown remotely.
For the issue regarding a power off button, use a momentary pushbutton trigger the shutdown event. You can either feed the RPi from a power brick and the rest of the printer from the main PSU using a mechanical relay to control it. Or use a WiFi smart plug to schedule the smart plug power off and shutdown the RPi before the plug shuts off.
I added both on mine as I can use the PSU only when required, for lower power consumption and the smart plug when shutting down octoprint or emergency/fire stop
I have been waiting so hard for this video, and the wait was dann worth it! Incredible work with so much Information packed into one hour of pure unbiased insights.
Estimated shipping time on my vcore3 is next week, so this video is quite hyping me up for the build🙌
Thanks for sharing your experiences with these two great machines, I think (and hope lol) you can't go wrong with either of them
One note about the open source section: RatRig is not truly open source in the copyleft sense because it has a CC-BY-NC-SA license (NonCommercial restricts usage). Voron uses GPLv3, which, while not really the best license for a hardware design, is fully copyleft. Ideally, they would both use a true open hardware license such as CERN OHL.
This only changed recently after I published this. From my conversations with them they will protect themselves from large commercial copying but not hobbyist and individuals selling mods and stuff. Obviously I can't guarantee that, but it's my current understanding.
Did you ever upgrade to stealthburner and do follow up test prints? I think everyone would be interested in seeing that comparison. Thanks!!
Well done sir. This actually sets you up quite well for a followup video in 6mo to a year, especially since a lot of the deficits of the Voron are going to be fixed with Stealthburner and will make for an interesting then and now video in the future.
One other note, when you look into klicky, one of the best features of it actually solves the endstop issue you were having, it's a auto-z offset script, it will ping the nozzle off the z endstop, pick up the probe, ping the probe off the bed, then ping the probe body off the z endstop, do some fancy math automatically and set a perfect Z offset every time regardless of bed/chamber temps.
Finally an apples to apples comparison, nice work Adam!
That RatOS shoutout made me blush 😂😍
22:12 what you want is something like the Sonoff Pow R2. Flash it with Tasmota and configure it under a [power] section in Moonraker. You then need a dedicated 5V PSU for the Raspberry Pi. Wire everything except the 5V psu through the Tasmota and the 5V psu straight to the IEC plug. You can wire up a physical switch to trigger it as well if you want to.
26:23 this really surprised me as well. I guess there's yet another reason most of us use the P&F probes at this point (Super Pinda / Vinda / SupCR etc) :D I didn't see you account for thermal drift though, it's not "noise at higher temperature" it's a drift in trigger distance with temperature, thats why it doesn't impact your standard deviation or range. In the case of thermal drift i would expect the BL Touch (and the P&F probes especially) to outperform the ... is it Omron?.. inductive probe on the V2.4.
We do still improve the V-Core 3 design in the dev team! The full enclosure was released not too long ago, the idlers have been upgraded, and there are more that i can't talk about at this time :D Rest assured, improvements are happening regularly, and it will continue!
Very nice review though! I enjoyed watching it! If i had to complain about something it would be the v1 dragon which might have skewed things a little bit with the stringing, but it is what it is :)
I'm gonna end things with a little notice about RatOS. It'll support pretty much any printer and any hardware, it's not limited to Rat Rig machines, so if the Voron team (or other printer devs/companies for that matter) wants their machines supported, reach out to me! Thanks for the kind words Adam! :)
Glad to hear .. Can't wait for my Vcore to arrive
As a mechanical engineer of about 13 years now in the tech industry working on a wide variety of consumer Electonics products and research devices I can say that the first thing I do with any CAD model that I receive is remove the entire part history/feature tree. It's a lot like code. It's usually a chaotic mess and I absolutely don't want to be corrupted by any garbage modeling techniques or hacking and whacking of CAD that was done to create the model. Providing a .STEP file is plenty, IMO, to consider the project "open source."
I installed the ABBN mod on my 2.4 a couple of weeks ago to improve PLA printing.
Haven't printed a single part in PLA since then, haven't even tried how much of an improvement ABBN is...
For people like me that print a lot of ABS the 2.4 is a really good buy.
StealthBurner
i switched to Stealthburner (which implemented the Airflow Changes of the ABBN, plus little modifications) and works excellent for PLA, a whole nother league compared to the stock afterburner.
@@mongini1 Duly noted. Tooling up to build a Voron, and while I don't plan on printing a whole lot of PLA, I'd still like to have the option to do it well. My Ender 3v2 had a truly monstrous cooling setup that sounded like a fighter jet spooling up for takeoff when the fans kicked on that basically didn't require any supports. I don't expect that level of parts cooling out of something I mostly plan to use for industrial filaments, but being able to do some rapid prototyping on a budget would be nice.
I'm building a v0.1 and as for shutdown of the pi, I think I'm going to make a graceful shutdown circuit that will detect power loss and shut down the pi before losing power. Might be something to consider.
UPS hat for RPi's aren't that expensive and a momentary switch and a few lines of code is all that's needed to shut down a pi safely without log in, both a UPS and two Momentary switches should be included with the Voron BOM's or listen as optional (shut down button and restart button), Klipper should also include the bash script or a link to a good one for the shutdown and or restart.
When I decided to build a premium printer (2years ago) all the sites for the kits, Voron and Hypercube had a large list of the kit componants out of stock, combining that with the reports of many parts being very poor quality and having to be replaced I decided to go a different route and decided on a completley different build, the Pro 3D V-King 400, although the wreere spreadsheets of parts and suppliers I decided to use the very best parts I could lay my hands on and so sourced them myself, this resulted in an increased build price but I had the benefit of only buying and building once and if I had any problems I could contact the designer Roy anytime, as it happens I did not need to consult Roy as his build video's covered everything in an easily understandable way and so I have a printer that I have not had to repair or upgrade and am 100% confident in, I can load up a file press print and leave it to do its thing and turn out wonderful quality parts!
I power my Pi from a dedicated 5VDC power supply and added the GPIO plugin to OctoPrint and a relay board. That will allow you to shut down all power to heater and printer board using the GPIO controlled relay board. I use a 4 channel relay board but really only need 1 or 2 channels, 1 for printer board supply and the second for AC powered bed heater.
Just remember the Pi uses 3.3v for GPIO so google how to configure the relay boards for use with the Pi. Just a matter of removing the jumper for vcc and connecting 5v for relay coil power and 3.3v to power the control section.
Really hopeful that the new stealthburner will address some of the cooling issues you encountered with the Voron.
It does! The stealthburner is an amazing toolhead
The famed video is finally here, a pre-thanks for this hard work! (Just starting the video now) :)
my V-Core 3 has been shipped early this week. I should receive the parts next week. Gonna source the rest over the next few months. Can't wait to build that thing
I really want this printer! Thank you for the video. Watching, bouncing back and forth, taking notes, etc. Need to figure which one I should invest into.
Voron does have a custom configuration option on their site which will scale the printer and the BOM to whatever size you want.
Screws: Zinc plating does not tell the screw's rating at all, can hide anything inside. Typically 8.8, but can also be 4.9 AKA cheese grade. Black ones on the other hand are high carbon steel which i guess is part of the reason they are black on top of some kind of treatment and should be 12.9 rated.
But who knows what you get when buying from China. That being said, i've used many chinese suppliers for M2-M5 screws, nuts and bolts etc. and all have been top quality so far. Biggest issue being that sometimes it's hard to see black size markings worn out, with black contents :)
Reinforced my decision of getting a voron lol. Glad I didn't waste my money haha.
Thank you. Really well done comparison. Shows that both are high quality machines. I agree with your points on safety. RR should have a cover for all mains voltage stuff to keep kids fingers out. I also see the you now need to test out some of the cooling mods for both printers. SuperSniffles Dual 5015 fan mod is very popular on the Rat Rig and allows you to push the PLA speeds a bit faster and sounds like there are some good cooling mods for the Vorons to. Your right Mikkel has done some excellent work on RatOS which makes the printer viable for someone like myself who otherwise could not invest the time to learn the details of Klipper.
Really, really contemplating a voron 0 build. Great comparison! Thankyou :)
Great video
Good points
I love the V-Core 3 design, for the tree legged design of the build plate
Thanks for sharing your experiences with all of us :-)
Building a cross between these two as this was posted, the cost for a full set of ratrig metal plates was around £100 + postage, I sourced 4mm aluminium plate at 500x500, and used around 2/3's of it, at a cost of £35 delivered, cutting, drilling and finishing 20 corner plates and the others took around 12 hours over a few days, (I have more time than money), it was a lot of work, all this was done using a very small bandsaw and bench top band saw, lot of work but some how much more rewarding. - I now yearn for a desktop CNC :)
I see a PrintNC in your future...
@@Kosh42EFG literally was just about to say the same 😂
Hi Adam,
thanks for this very extensive and open comaprison :)
Just a few comments - I am still watching and adding here as I go through the video:
a.) As the maintainer of the RR-printer profiles I disagree with your evaluation on the profiles. The modern research on functional parts has shown, that thicker support lines don't result in stronger parts. The modern approach is: For strong parts, use more hull - more or thicker perimeters, more bottom and top layers. The function of the infill is mostly to ensure the top layers print well. To achieve this, you want lots of lines, not thick lines. It's also the reason why modern infills like adaptive cubic infill were invented. They are dense close to perimeters and get less and less dense toward the center of objects. Another approach: Think of the top layer as a huge bridged layer. The more often you support this huge bridge, the better it will look. Thick lines won't help with that, but many lines will.
b.) Regarding the deviation differences: I don't want to argue with the numnbers. I just consider the numbers on both printers as excellent. The gold standard for Z on FDM printers is that repeatability should be better than 0.01mm for perfect results, and both printers meet this standard both hot and cold. Yes, there is a difference - but it's negigible for printing results.
Are you saying that a fairer comparison would be to compare print times for 20% infill on RR to 40% infill on Voron? (or whatever draws the same number of lines
@@Vector3DP What I say is: All these profiles are templates. You decide if you want strong functional prints or save plastic and time. Going heavy with thick lines and 40% infill serves neither of these purposes. For strong parts, use more and thicker perimeter lines, not thicker infill.
I was thinking to make one...
Now I really don't want to get into this trouble,
I'll wait for the bambolab one to come out.. :)
Thanks for the video!
Great work buddy!
Holy cow finally! I've been searching for this vid every night since September. Thank you for finally making it@
Yes - was waiting for this. Thanks.
To prevent the z-steppers to go idle, you simply could connect the !EN pin of the stepper drivers to ground instead to the corsponding I/O pin. There is normaly no need for the z-motors to go idle, unless while tinkering (but this should be done while the printer is off anyway). So imho no big deal. I actually did this on an old bedslinger and it worked well.
The Voron trident seems to be direct competition with the rat rig v core 3. They both have kinematic beds for leveling. Perhaps a new apples to apples comparison ??? More content 😉
An additioanl reccomendation if you want a cheap entry to printing ABS and printing quite fast, an ender 3 can be turned into a switchwire, there are voron user mods that do this, and the switchwire design is enclosable and very compact for an enclosed bedslinger. My current ABS printer is a clone prusa mk2 running klipper in an ikea lack enclosure, with and afterBEARner hotend/XZ assembly. Prusa frame is a bit flimsy and prints look bad with an acceleration above 1000mm/s/s, but it's my way in to bootstrapping myself into a voron. I'm just using cheap correx panels on the lack box and it works ok BUT it takes up more space than a 350mm voron for a prusa mk2 or creality ender 3 size bed, at which point if space is at a premium, the voron 2.4 and trident look very very good.
can you convert the v1 ender, or just the v2?
@@phoenixrising4573 the original ender 3 with the 20mm centre section need a lot of different parts, the pro and v2 are perhaps better supported and more active, but there is a v1 mod on voronusers, and a small but active channel in the voron discord.
The v1 mod uses one less linear rail and is probably less annoying to build, lining up the two rails for the v2 y is annoying.
@@phoenixrising4573 You can print ABS no problem with Ender 3 v1 enclosed. Some people do it with cardboard box, I have a tent. Already printed 75% of the Voron 2.4 parts without issues.
From my experience the extra hardened "12.9" screws which you see mostly with black coating are superior to the zinc coated ones in terms of strength and especially robustness against stripping the heads. So I can especially recommend them for applications where you move them daily/weekly. They can be 5-10 times more expensive though...
How it is with the corrosion resistance I cannot say unfortunately, since I don't work in a damp cellar where 3D printers sometimes get placed.
Thats a Video ive searched a long time.
Thx again for that nice one, and greets from Germany :)
I use a BTT Relay 1.2 to shutdown everything after M112
After about a year of staying out of 3D printing news, I pretty much immediately stumbled over these two beastly beauties about a month ago.
By the time I actually have the funds to spare for either of them, we'll probably be on the successor models, but just to air my dreams into the aether:
I want an IDEX, and while there are obviously easier (mod and stock) options out there, I've quite fallen in love with the idea of turning a Voron 2.4 into one (with Rapido UHF hotends and Zodiac Pro nozzles). I'll have to wait until the Voron IDEX Project not only matures in general, but also adapts to the 2.x style, though, anyway, as I really don't trust that I'd be able to overcome the challenges from scratch.
And my ultimate dream project to end all projects is simply put turning a V-Core 3 into a Jubilee (with two Revos, a Chimera, a Cyclops, and a couple of tools). I haven't even looked into how exactly to best merge the two yet, though, due to the cost.
Anyway, I probably ought to get some experience building a core-XY before either of the above. I'm heavily eyeing a Voron 0.1 for this, but I'm waiting for kits to come with an SKR Pico out of the box. (Hotend-wise, part of me wants to go Rapido UHF with Zodiac Pro as well, but it's so tiny, Dragonfly BMO with Zodiac CRB should more than suffice.)
I’m admittedly weak in CoreXY knowledge. I’m printing with a bed slinger, Anet A8Plus, my first printer and over the last 24 months or so have learned quite a bit. I’m an engineer by trade and as such thoroughly enjoyed building / assembling the kit so I’m not intimidated regarding such things. I’ve been studying CoreXY for a bit. I’m leaning towards the Voron for multiple reasons. I have to ask though as I haven’t come across it yet. What is IDEX? Yeah, I’ll be googling it when I click submit on this but, wanted to get your take on it since it sounds like it’s tops on your radar. Thanks.
In terms of the safe shutdown button, i was planning on using a raspberry pi PowerBlock you can get from Pi Hut and wire that up though an additional SSR so you can have a push button power button which starts the machine but also safe shutdowns the pi host and then kills power when pressed
If you were to create a printer based from both of these designs, what would take from each printer? Also what you do totally different?
I think the safe shutdown is maybe more of an issue of how Raspberry Pis are designed. When you shut down a PC with the power button due to the nature of how ATX works, that button is merely sending a signal to the motherboard to do the next step. A single quick push has the board tell Windows to shut down(id imagine on Linux it can issue a halt command to the OS), The long push forces the board to cut power. What would have to be seen is if there is a way to do this on a Pi, Perhaps someone could find a way to make a plugin for Klipper and OctoPrint that watches a specific set of GPIO ports, hook a momentary switch to those and it sends a shutdown command to the program and the circuit is closed.
Another idea could be a separate 5v power supply running the Pi only and split off the AC input. Switched main power in runs direct to 5V PSU powering a USB for the Pi, Then you have a leg running to another switch and this switch runs out to the SSR and main PSU for the printer. You could in theory cut this switch terminating power to the main PSU and heated bed circuits while keeping the Pi hot. I would imagine you would need to click reconnect in Klipper on powering up the main system side of things as the main PSU is often what drives the controller board.
Finally there is just running clipper on a small factor PC like those book sized ones you often see at POS terminals as I have heard you can run Klipper on Linux and that these little PCs can even drive multiple instances and multiple printers. With this you could power off any printer at any time.
Having just built a Voron 2.4 I can say that it's much more impressive after building. I have built other extrusion based printers and they do not begin to compare. Only real complaints about the build are the belt clamp location, lack of bolt(s) holding the two front idlers together, belts running too close to Y rails and Z belts running a bit close to extrusion as well. Also seems like the lower Z belt clamp could be better designed but I see why they did it this way in an effort to reduce parts as the Voron has about 10 times as many as say a C-Bot that I have built. Once the gantry was assembled and mounted to the Z though, my machine had zero racking right out of the gate and adjusting the belt tension helps "tune" the belt tension to avoid belt tension induced racking. The two X rails I expected to be an issue were not. This may be because my kit came with genuine hiwin rails and I'd suggest anyone looking at a Voron to skimp wherever except the rails as CoreXYs thrive on rails matching each other.
How is it vs prusa?
Really good comparison. I received my first Rat Rig (400mm cube ) in May of 2021. It has been such a good printer that I ordered a second (500 mm cube) and am almost done with assembly. For me the size and getting all of the parts I wanted from one source made my decision. I am using the Octopus on both, and an OmniaDrop hot end direct drive
David, do you notice any print quality diference between 400x400 and 500x500 printers? Thanks!
@@toppyweb Not really, but they are usually set up differently. I start an upgrade on one and when finished do the second. They are really the same printer, just different bed size. The real secret to me is the bed mount and 3 point independent Z axis. When tramming the corners on either is within .02 mm, so that is very "level" the bed mesh on both is a 7 x 7 using an EZABL from TH3D and have really good first layers. I don't run them fast, am more worried about quality and the ability to print really big. I have two Bambu printers for small and speed.
Thank you!!!
Also two bambu? I know they are no so similar, but I would love a comparison in terms of quality/reliability/speed.
Quick side note... I now have 350 hours on my Voron with only one failure cause of a temp mistake. It just prints and with the quad leveling its just click print and come back later when its done. Been the best printer that I have ever had, no need to tinker just design and iterate.
So no bed leveling is needed? and could you print like a whole helmed on it?
@@mikew6052 There is no bed leveling on the voron, instead, it does a QGL which typically you would run every print, It has 4 Z-axis each with its own independent stepper motor, the QGL process tests the height against the bed for each corner and adjusts, aligning the floating gantry to the bed. The bed itself has no adjustment at all and is completely static. I just built my voron, but I am expecting it to have no problem with large prints.
Thank you very much for the video. You convinced me on the Ratrig less than half way through. Lol
You missed an important bit of the Voron support: there is a ticketing system in place which will bring your issues to the eyes of dedicated volunteers or the engineering team on a case by case basis. You get a private channel to discuss and solve the issue.
This is not something i've seen or been offered at any point.
@@Vector3DP seems TH-cam ate my reply, second try: there is a channel request_help on discord where you can open tickets.
46:30 You can right click any part of the assembly in Onshape -> "Open linked document". Everything **is** available.
wow, you're impressively thorough! great work!
Great vid…thanks and just what I was looking for 🎉
Nearly two years on and they are still two of the best choices for a large format printer.
regarding always on Power to the pi, you can make that fairly easy: Just get a IEC 14 power socket with a switch, you can then wire it so that your 5v power supply goes directly from the inlet end everything else goes through the switch. I am planning to do that via a zigbee controllable relay.
I don’t what mini displays rat rig uses, but for voron, since 2.4 released in 2020, you can turn off pi with the small black button (just right below the dial knob of mini12864).
@@nhozdien5058 Ratrig comes with no display and they don't officially support any.
Sadly, whilst building my Vcore3, I had to contact their support because some of the electronics parts arrived not working. I got zero response from them. In the end I had to source replacements elsewhere.
Reply to your order confirmation e-mail and they should get back to you ASAP. They're usually very fast with replacements.
They should but I got zero reply.
Great video, the work yu put into this really shows
For shutdown and more with Klipper, "Klipper Screen" Official RPi Display is a good fit.
I don't think the noise is becuase of using idler instead of bearing. On ratrig, the xy motion parts are mount directly on the frame with bunch of bolt. On v2 the the xy motion marts are mount on floating gantry that only mount to the linearrail block with 4 semi-tighten bolts, vibration is somewhat isolation from the motor/idlers to the printer frame.
Great detailed explanation between two amazing machines. 1 item specific to Z HOP using those couplers on the RatRig. Do they flex/bounce? You may be able to see the flex within the red material in the couplers around the 56 (ish) minute mark on the RatRig? Based on my experience using this style of coupler, disable/slow down the Z hop. This connection can cause the bed to become misaligned as the material in the couplers degrade over time. I found I frequently replace them (several times) a year for best performance. I hope these hold up for you a longer time. Your prints from both look fantastic, excellent review!
you could go for steppers with integrated Lead Screws... doesnt really get better than that. If you get straight ones, lube them well and replace the nut now and then, they will serve you a very very long time :D
RE: Fans, I hear you! It's been my #1 issue with 3d printers as well. IIRC, one of the Voron dev team members reached out to a well-known fan manufacturer about a custom design. It was something like $100k up front cost for tooling, and a commitment of 10000 orders @ $12/fan. So, having a custom fan is costly with today's manufacturing costs.
I wonder how difficult it would be to wrap your own coils and 3D print your own fan?
@@adamrosenberg4367 Could most likely order stators with tight wrappings. Then it's a matter of bearings and press fitting?
@@eduncan911 sounds doable
Sunon? Because West3d is about to do that. He is already authorized by sunon to sell their stuffs.
@@nhozdien5058 actually, yes, I do believe the Voron team member said during the Live Stream that it was Sunon - where they got their quote.
Great video. On the desire to be able to manage powering off the Raspberry PI in a controlled way, without logging into the web interface, I'm actively working on a solution for that. Currently waiting on parts to arrive, with testing to follow. Hope to have a product out early next year. I'll post in Discord when I have a better handle on time frame and availability.
Tag me on discord when you have it sorted. interested to see.
@@Vector3DP absolutely, happy to send a sample or two your way as well.
@54:56 AB:BN and Steathburner are both designed by BadNoob.. well, the computational fluid dynamics were done by BadNoob and the appearance was done by Wile.e.. they both did an absolutely fantastic job ;)
I am sitting on the fence with the Formbot Voron 2.4 and Dragon hot end in the box, waiting for the Stealthburner to be released :-) When?
@@bubnikv I can't tell you how to spend your hard earned, I can only tell you what I know. I'm currently running a dragon standard flow on one of my modded machines using an EVA carriage and it is brilliant.. And at the same time I am about to take the plunge and buy all the parts for a voron trident (but I do still have plans to make a v-core in the near future 😅). The Stealthburner should be out by the end of December with everything going well 😉
@@bubnikv Stealthburner (with e3d Revo?) will come next year but a dragon can print pretty well already today
Great information here. I have been researching the MercuryOne.1 Hydra but I think that the docs aren't developed enough for someone as new to printing as I am. I Voron 2.4r2 with stealthburner and maybe the 3030 extrusions and 9mm belts of the RatRig looks nice to me. I also like RatOS and they are currently working on a profile for the Voron using the Manta M8P board and CB! proccy that I would like to use.
Great review, looking forward to your future videos.
Nice review/comparison, love the way you do this. more people should subscribe :-)
Try the superPinda it's great and temp (80 degrees) doesn't influence your z offset
I have hard time deciding between these two. The main benefit on the Rat Rig seems to be the automatic bed leveling, but I am not sure if it's worth the extra cost and space.
Both printers have the same features with regard to the bed tramming and mesh generation.
about the heater times, mightn't the voron slowness be more about the thermal mass of its bigger chunk of aluminium in its bed?
And potentially limiting hear up speed to avoid thermal stresses as the bed heats unevenly.
Yes. Plus, Voron specifies 80% power to heat the bed while the Rat Rig doesn't have this limit. You could remove that limit on the Voron, but it's likely done for safety.
You can put a relay on the main power and run it to a pi pinout then make a pi cron job that looks at another pin where you put a button to detect a high or low and then switch the relay off. You can also create a macro in klipper that can turn everything on again which you can put in your start script. This will require you to put the klipper controller onto the pi too (something you may have done already if you use input shaping)
I’m not even sure all that’s worth it. If you’re keeping the Raspi running, it alone (well, also with power supply inefficiency) draws about 5W (I have a Rpi 4). If you keep everything else powered on (but heaters, steppers, and any LED lIghts off), it adds maybe 1-2W. So I’d recommend either having a solution that shuts down the OS and then powers down everything (to get to near 0W), or just leaving the printer on all the time where it will consume 8.6W idle (including C920 webcam).
@@fredhamilton1701 you can put that on a button to the GPIO too, then you can just make the Pi turn on the relay to turn on everything else at startup. When it turn off the pins will go low and it will turn everything off automatically.
Great review thanks for uploading.
Just leave it turned on. I do. Then its always ready there on the network whenever you need to print.
Nice looking Printers,
As for the filament, Wow the price is twice as much as for what I pay for PLA+
I would buy this filament But I cant ask the customers to pay twice as much for what they are used to.
21:00 - @Vector3d, that to me is a plus. Not having all those do-dads makes the for less things to go wrong with the machine. In addition, many of those things (like filament runout) don't work particularly well on other 3d printers.
Its not obvious, but there is actually a ticketing system on the Voron discord, which means you will only get answers from the devs and not random people. I haven't tried it so I don't know what the response time is like.
You mentioned not being able to clean the bed with IPA (Voron I think). So what do you clean it with? Also it looked like this bed has a fairly course texture that would impact the print finish?
Great video - thanks for making it.
you put water on paper towel, heat the bed and steam clean it. The 3D Prima is very rough, the filaprint RS is nothing like that, but not as smooth as glass
Your review is very thorough👍👍👍
I would love to know how you made your filament storage shelves.
Plans are available on my website. vector3d.co.uk
The best DIY printer is what you make of it and how it's tuned. Any of these printers in less capable hands can be a nightmare.
"The stock firmware has no implementation methods for creating a bed mesh". I think that's at best a bit misleading because mesh creation is an intrinsic part of Klipper. So what is it that it doesn't have? Out of the box, Klipper doesn't have a front end, but one could craft a gcode file and upload it. But either way Klipper does really need some sort of web front end to even make it basically usable. Once you have that, you also have an easy way to create and manage bed meshes. It is exactly the same situation for either printer.
Ratrig has everything for creating bed mesh preconfigured, you just press one button and it does it pretty much. For voron, all the tools are there, its the same firmware, you just have to do it yourself.
First. Great video with comparison! Love it
I wish you showed how fast you'd go without input shaping before you get ghosting too
But nice review
I may be a bit optimistic, but I kinda want a CoreXY Kit but I'm not sure what to get since it would be my second 3D Printer ever, my first being the Snapmaker 2.0. Now I'm wondering if I should go for a Voron or a Ratrig. Or should I go for a cheaper system for the start like the Seckit SK-Go?
Great job, excellent review!
I wanted to have a readonly pi, so basically pi after booting off an sd-card doesn't remount the filesystem in read-write mode, then uses overlay RAM filesystem, networked files, this sort of thing, so no writes to the card, doesn't corrupt the filesystem as it doesn't write to it, but as i found out, for some reason, pi loves killing SD-Cards when powered off brutally. And maybe i don't even mind filesystem corruption so much, as i can just reimage the card.
But now i have an SD-Card that is stuck in a read-only mode - absolutely unrelated to my experiments for sure, just something that happened on an impolite power loss for whatever hardware or boot firmware reasons, and has the last thing that was on it permanently etched into it. I seem to work around the read-only lock in software and erase the stuff, but when i take the card out and put it back in, everything is still on there as it was! I'll need some heavier machinery to try to analyse that card. Not only am i out of 4€ for the card, but it was also a pretty colour.
im betting you could put a trigger in where a button attached to a unused end-stop pin out on your controller triggers a shutdown command in klipper
You've come a long way from just a desk out of Extrution. 👍
Thanks mate , good info
Great work! I would go with V-Core 3 because of easy of buying the parts. The part cooling on both is a bummer (I like to print with PLA)
The Voron will get a massive part cooling update with the new Stealthburner which is scheduled to be released this month.
@@christophmuller3511 That's great! Thanks for the info. Hard to choose between the two printers.
"Stock" voron 2.4 afterburner is set up for ABS cooling, look at the AB-BN mod, or the upcoming afterburner stealth (based on AB-BN). Both use a bigger 5015 fan and have better duct designs. Threre's Stabby/LoudOwl if you require dual 5015, but AB-BN has been enough for me on my open PLA printer.
And a minute after I said this you namechecked them. Yes, do try. I've tried a warbird duct and another 5015 mod, and that worked well but the duct was quite fragile and prone to warping.
What i really like about afterburner is it's really modular and easy to work on. I have 4 hotends that get swapped between two printers, and I've got dual extruder single hotend bowden system that I can swap in for decorative dual colour parts.
The new voron stealthburner toolhead is crazy good. Like better overhangs with its single 5015 than I'm getting with dual 5015s on a Hydra toolhead for ender3.
They do make and I have a switch that will run a script to power down the Pi. Press momentary switch, script runs, Pi shuts down. Then you can hit a second switch to kill the mains if you like.
Can you provide some more info?
I use octo touch on my pi4 with the 3.5"tft touch screen so I don't need to use my phone or laptop to shut down. It's onscreen! It's good for quickly changing nozzle Temps and bed Temps and pausing prints and shutting down. Other than that I hardly use it. Love octoprint on my heavy modded ender 3 v1. Want to try kipper for the accelerometer feature for tuning when I print above 60mm/s my absolute max I can print using Marlin and micro Swiss hotend is 100mm/s with minimal fuss Wich anything above 40mm before my upgrades was only dreamed of! Tpu I can print 50mm/s max with ok quality. Want a voron so badly and is next on my list!
i choosed this today over the new episode of star trek discovery :-) good video, thank you
Good video, thanks for the subjective information. What I'm taking from this is I'm right to wait for the Prusa XL and see what that brings as for the price I think it will be a more complete printer and better supported than the Voron or the Rat-Rig.
I'm in the same boat. There's just a bit too much to go wrong here when I just want a good reliable printer that I don't have to fight with to get working. I've been struggling with poor quality Chinese printers for too long and want a break. Wish the XL was out sooner.
@@skywardsoul1178 bambulab is better and at a lower price, albeit at a smaller size
@@BH4x0r Arguable. It seems great, but the company's attitude is a dealbreaker for me. The most basic printers these days have a good thermal runaway protection that comes into play within 20-30 seconds.
The Bambu doesn't activate for 3 minutes and can heat up to 450'C. The temp at which PLA can catch fire is around 380. The company's response to this was indifferent / it's working as intended. If anything else bad turns up / you run into issues with the proprietary hardware, you're entirely reliant on them to help you. If they don't you're screwed.
@@skywardsoul1178inaccurate you don't know what your talking about your just re-spreading prusa propaganda on the so called "open source" garbage.
@@user-tj7xr6xd9z There are videos out there about it that have literally nothing to do with Prusa, just a displeased Bambu owner. What crawled up your ass?
The Ratrig is available in 500x500 and the Voron can be configured with a "custom" size. Is it fine, if I just configure it to be 500x500? There doesn't seem to be many people having bigger Vorons.
Voron 2.4 design is not suitable for 500x500.
Could you please do a video or tell me more about this filaprint are I’ve found very little information about it other than where to buy it.
Great video thank you!
What is the point of cutting the neutral when at the main box for the home the neutral and ground are combined anyways and the ground will always be connected and therefore your neutral is still connected.
i really dislike the PETG 3d printed parts on the ratrig