Excellent topic John. I owned a small business with (up to) 8 employees for close to 40 years. It was a struggle pretty much the entire time, to turn a profit. There were many a time everyone got paid, but me. We did very high quality, high end work. I can relate to the grumbling heard from people about the high cost of buying, owning, maintaining a Harley. There will always be people that want a high quality product, but don't want to pay that price (then complain about it). I personally put a Harley Davidson motorcycle in a similar category (price / quality) with high end automobiles, watches, furniture, private jets, boats, etc, etc. Most can appreciate the quality, but not all can afford it. I would love to own a new 2018 Sport Glide, but the price tag is out of range for me. Instead of complaining that Harleys are too expensive, I will continue to ride my old putt putt and save for one. Maybe in a year or two, a nice, low mileage used one will appear in my area.
@mld Harley does an excellent job with marketing and pricing for that image. Whether or not that it true is another issue. high end automobiles, private jets,boats, etc generally speaking are not like Harleys in that you usually don't pay more for less performance but higher reliability. Its usually the opposite with most industries (and every segment of motorcycling other than cruisers)
Nissan Dealer tech here, we work on anything with the Nissan name on it. Its not often you see cars older than MY98 come through the shop but if they do the customer is welcomed with open arms. The customer trusts the dealer to repair their vehicle properly because the dealer is the most qualified to do so. Turning a customer away who invested their money into your brand is bad for business. Also the customers that own these older vehicles care more about them then your average customer with a new vehicle, they're understanding about the complications that come along with owning older vehicles and are usually much more willing to purchase the recommended repairs. Customers willing to stay loyal to the brand and have their vehicle serviced at the dealer time after time are not the customers to be turning away. These are the customers you go the extra mile for. Being a young technician myself it is a challenge for me to learn the older systems and inner workings of these older vehicles but I do so knowing it will improve my competency in the end. Just my .02 cents. Like the vids and the channel. Have a good one!
I ran my 89 softail for years with no problems, and had not run into the "sorry, we don't work on old bikes" mantra til I started having electrical problems out in the desert and rolled into Reno in about 2002. I WAS able to talk them in to looking at my problem, the tech ran down a bad ground wire and I tooled on down the highway, but I had learned a valuable lesson. Most scooter shops have damn fine mechanics working for them who know their stuff..
This is a great subject. The dealership I worked at we worked on everything that said HD on it. The oldest I worked on was a 1919 side hack. There was a really cool 1946 knuckle that was cool. Now 84.5 and older were straight time and materials. Evo and later was flat rate. Most shops will still work on Evo's, but not all. I was lucky enough to have guys with 30 plus years of experience to learn from. And to see what has changed and improved since I started on them.
That’s awesome! Makes sense. We work on some Evos that we have worked on for years. The new owners that get a pile welded metal, we generally have to turn down. Fenders welded to frames and such. Ya see the craziest stuff...
John Maxwell my craziest work order was a shovel traveling to Sturgis with the rear cylinder falling off was the concern. It was moving up and down. I just tightened the nuts adjusted the tappets filled oil swatted on the butt and sent it on its way. Knowing your limits is key with older bikes.
Being a tech for 20 plus years its not the shop dealer or A/M shop as you call them. It's all about the tech. I know many bad techs in dealers that should not be allowed to turn a wrench. I feel a tech/ shop can make your break the ownership of owning a motorcycle . Great info great video thank you for the info!
Excellent information. I liked how you included that H-D makes money from New Bike Sales. As a consumer that likes to support local and US made products and jobs, (when I can) this was one of my points in buying a 2017 FLHTCU. There are plenty of good condition, low mileage used Harleys around that I could have picked up for half of what I paid for my bike. I know several guys with decked out used automotive purchases that like to thump their chest about how much money they've "given" to the manufacturers of those vehicles. I just chuckle inside because the companies didn't make any money off them, they made money off the original buyer, years ago. The second point was that this might be my last H-D as I'm in my 50's and I wanted a bike with warranty, that would be serviceable for the realistic life of the bike's touring ability.
I was a tech in a GM dealership in Baltimore for near a decade. We worked on anything anyone would bring in. I even did front end repair from pot hole damage on a Lamborghini gallardo, took 7 weeks to import the parts but I got it done. We also did work on anything from muscle cars to rusty old Toyota’s.
A rider MIGHT luck out and find a dealer who has a couple of old timers who still do some work on older bikes,or a younger tech who owns and rides an older scoot himself. NEVER hurts to ask. I even found a tech at one dealer who was a good looking woman,she rode a flatside Shovel bagger. She was very good on Shovels AND newer stuff. I heard from friends in that area she quit to get married and raise a family-Guess I shoulda invited her out to Dinner when I first met her.
A couple years ago broke a cluch cable on my 94 fxrp the Harley dealer didn't have one in stock they said we only stock parts for the new bikes I said I through the new ones weren't supposed to break down. Thank god for J&P cycles cost half as much as Harley wanted for them to order one and would take a week to get.Got it from J&P in two days.I'll keep my old Harley s&s carb no computers no fuel pumps. I can look up on Google how to fix most anything on her and pay myself 100 dollars an hour.
Top ramble while you rumbled. I love pulling up at my dealership on a Saturday morning with all the HOG people out front on their new rides. My 1987 FXRS-SP has never had a Harley Tech touch it. I go to the dealership for lubes and the odd part. They always comment on how well it looks and especially sounds. 'What is it?' they ask. Now if you know your Harleys you never have to ask that, and you also know when the Sturgis' came out!!! Enough said. Great stuff John, we love you down here in Australia. My 1987 is on historic registration, about US$100 per year. And like a lot of Harleys, will keep going for a long time and never see the hydaulic hoist of a Harley shop. Peter Australia
@@roymoderatto got a 88-sp myself get dickheads saying nice sportster ,i just say ' whatever ya reckon '. Even vasoline valley harley spare parts section had no clue when i said 1988 FXRS-SP.
For the most part you are right. But the cost for mile maintenance is crazy. I feel if you ride it you should be able to do an oil change and inspection. No better way to know you bike than get your hands on it
I have a '78 Sporty. Went into my local Harley dealership to buy a new battery and got the run around before they finally admitted to me that they couldn't help me. their books only went back to '91. Lugged my battery up to a cycle and water sport dealership 40 miles away and was getting the same story when an old tech took a good look at it, suggested the parts tech call up the company they buy their batteries from and see if they have it. Turns out my battery was their brand. Sure enough they had it and I paid in advance. Had to go back a week later to pick it up but I had a new battery. ... What burnt my cookie was the whole attitude of your bike is too old so we can't help you. Okay, I get that, but to not be willing to help with a suggestion where to look locally and just left me hanging pissed me off to no end. I now refuse to spend a dime in a H.D. dealership.
Stephen; True that. I have a great bike shop to go to now. First time I went in to get a new pet-cock I told him about my bike and you should have seen the grin on his face. Gave me an earful of history. Yeah, us old duffers don't buy the okey doke like the kids today.
I got tired of shelling out large (for me) money for a new battery once a year (until the shops quit stocking 'em) for my ol' 1980 FLHS,so I modified the lid on the battery box for terminal clearance and made a spacer to hold the battery over to one end and installed a plain ol' Sears Die-hard garden tractor battery-that got me a battery that lasted 5 years. That cost me $25.00 every five years.
John; I take it as far as I can go whenever I can. Just a few weeks ago I bought a new pair of ladies H.D. boots on eBay. $185.00 , worn once. pristine condition. I paid $45 and that's with shipping. Did the same with my helmet a few years ago $165 originally, I paid $60. Harley will never see an original purchase from me.
Moors Hound; As my father taught me, "Those who will not listen, must feel, and the best way to make 'em feel is to hit 'em in the pocketbook." It's all about loyalty. Treat me right and I'm loyal.
You are a stand-up guy John! Thanks for the cool ride, nice riding country. I appreciate your honesty, opinions and down to earth talk. Don't change a thing man!
Good video as always,thanks for your time and knowledge.As an owner of a '99 heritage classic,I can relate to "it's to old to work on mentality".So here's a couple of suggestions,find the manual specific to your ride study it completely and fix what you can yourself,after all that's what Harley's were all about in the beginning.Barring that find a shop that has a tech,that does good work on older bikes.
I think a bigger reason dealerships won't work on older models is the liability factor. I work in the service industry and I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "it was working fine before you touched it." Most consumers or end users aren't "educated" enough to understand how their equipment operates. If someone brings in an old shovel, and never properly maintained it through the years, the dealership could end up owning that bike because it came in as a ticking time bomb to begin with. Those are just my thoughts.
Ya there are a lot of dishonest people who will just try to pin things on the dealer knowingly to try to get something for free. I've been a dealer tech for 15 years and have seen it more times than I can count.
Yes as a Indy shop owner I see it to many times a yr. Replace front tire bike still wobbles. Ok rim is straight bearings are nice and firm balance is correct. Oh look front motor mount bolts are loose.
Brother love the videos but totally disagree with you... Anyone who is willing to put their name on a product and sell it should back that product no matter how old it is. Image if Honda or Toyota did the same, told their customers after 5 years we are not going to work on our cars, they would be out of business! Harley is totally wrong to treat their customers in this fashion. The answer is keep a tech in the shop that knows how to work on “OG” stuff.
Those techs often leave the dealer to go to the aftermarket shops I was talking about. I might not have been clear about how that works out. Also, my Ford reference was to showcase that HD is not the only one. Another commenter used BMW as an example. Our shop works on bikes 20 years old and newer. Just like the Honda shop in town. I was just trying to bring to light some information. Not necessarily sway any opinions.
I’m a Toyota tech ( in aus ) and generally speaking we will send away cars older then ‘05 not because we don’t know ‘how’ to work on them but because Toyota only supports workshop manuals to ‘05 and the computer is only guaranteed to work on cars ‘05 and newer. So we cant assure the guest that we can provide our normal level of quality for there car. It’s all about meeting expectations for us. That being said if a guest came in with a 1955 stout and was happy to throw money at it we would work on it but he would get better value elsewhere.
Go to your local Chevy and count how many cars in the shop are more than 5 years old. Very few. 20 year old cars- almost non existent. That's what local shops are for.
In New Jersey the rate is $115.00 p/h if you want all three oils changed $300 to $350 and you have to make an appointment to spend your hard earned dollars! But John I love your honesty & integrity it’s what I learned from my dad and while attending West Point, don’t change you are a breath of fresh air!
I do most of my own work on my Shovelhead. A old Mikuni 38VM carb tunes nice. I did my own honing and valve lapping. Last fall. Will take to Independent shop if I can't do it.
Planned obsolescence is the world we live in. What does a customer do if he doesnt have an after mkt dealer near by ? What if you break down 2000 miles from home and no after mkt dealer around ? So as a customer what do you do if you are not a mechanic. Sell your bike after 10 yrs, yeah the dealers love that,. It’s not just Harley my local Polaris dealer won’t work on my 20 yr old ATV. Silly me for making it last that long. Sounds like a great opportunity to become an after market shop if you are mechanically inclined. The parts are available I’m sure. So no matter what the end result is the customer is not first, the company is. And companies wonder why customer’s are not loyal
If Harley only knew just how much people loved their old bikes, they become a part of you, you cannot just junk it or sell it & buy the next new shiny bike.
So true. This month makes an even 40 years ago I bought Myrtle new. 1979 XLH Iron Head quad cam. I learned to wrench on a 72 superglide before that. Anybody can get a HD service manual, and learn. Fixing your Harley is part of being a Biker. Stay true, don't buy new.
I could not imagine expecting people that are in their mid to late 30s with over a decade of experience, being expected to work on your motorcycle. Older riders are some of the most entitled people, I see comments on videos and have had conversations in the dealership with older riders, complaining about how the mechanics cant work on older motorcycles. Grandpa, you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that you are dealing with something that is 30-40 years old, your AMF era motorcycle is approaching historical vehicle status. It is beyond Classic and Antique in a few states.
Owning an old bike is the perfect opportunity to learn to wrench. If you screw the pooch on a $3500 bike (or less), it's not the disaster that it would be on a new $15k+ bike. That said, it's not that hard to learn if you just apply yourself, especially if you are only learning to work on your specific model, though a lot of it carries over. Back in the day, part of owning a Harley was learning to maintain it and tinkering with it, Harleys were always the higher maintenance and customizer/tinkerer's bike. If you wanted to just put gas in it and ride it without much effort, you bought Jap. If you were strapped for cash, you bought a basket case, and rebuilt it from the frame up, and knew every inch of it when you were done. If you wanted a chopper, or a bobber, you learned to fabricate. There weren't any "bikes in a box" or bolt together choppers. The market is flooded with inexpensive older bikes, and the dealers want to make it as difficult to own one as they can, to pressure you into buying new. Same thing for the factory, make as much as possible into black boxes that require expensive tools or publicly unavailable tools to plug them into, so they can't be easily repaired by the owner. Instant cash flow for the dealers and the factory. Nowadays with all the electronic gizmos, it seems like the "heart" has gone out of Harley, and cars as well for that matter. Now they just want to plug it into an analyzer and be told what the issue is, then replace a module, especially dealers. Don't tune a carb, have the fancy "computer controlled fuel injection system" remapped electronically, oh, and now we are pushing for laws to make it illegal for you to remap it yourself! Big brother knows better than you! Quick fixes for maximum profit, minimal training or effort, and heaven forbid a good mechanic be able to work on something old. Maybe it's more that dealers want to only hire someone out of the tech school with minimum knowledge of current production bikes only, so they can pay them a substandard wage? A good mechanic costs money. Same thing is happening, and has been happening in industry. No one will hire a machinist anymore, they want a "machine operator" to just be a button pusher, they earn less. They would hire trained circus monkeys if they could, to maximize profit at the expense of quality. If you can't or won't learn to do your own work, find an independent shop that has real mechanics, the ones that do it for the love of working on the machines, and can work on about any older bike, and tell you more about them than you'd thought anyone could know. Those can be hard to find these days, but they are out there. There is a huge difference between a mechanic, and a "tech". Once you find a good mechanic, the difference will be obvious. Maybe I am just showing my age :P (Get off my lawn!!)
At a certain point those older bikes are usually built and maintained by older techs. It's not rocket science. Guys back in the day wrenched on them like normal. Usually a local indie shop picks up the slack. Or you have to learn. No real way around that. Owning a Shovel would be kick ass though.
John, love the vids you do a great job. Also love the idea of H-D dealers giving a discount to local independent shops who work on older bikes. Unfortunately not the case for me. Even worse and part of my point for commenting is in 2016 the motor company stopped any remaining dealerships who had online sales (they were cheaper) from selling to anyone associated with a motorcycle shop like myself. Hugely disappointing on several levels. Now anytime I want to use OEM parts I have to make 2 trips to the local dealership and pay full retail. Not exactly efficient, profitable, or motivating to use H-D parts. Hopefully this changes in the future but somehow think that declining sales effected this decision. Regardless, keep up the good work!
To my knowledge the Willie G Special and Sturgis bikes were the only two that I am aware of that came factory equipped with dual belt drive primary and secondary drive. If you wanna see weird stuff look at the 1979 to 1984 FLT (Tour Glide) bikes. They were 5 speed shovelheads with an enclosed oil chain drive! The 84 Evo model had a chain drive that was enclosed and immersed in oil and it had a shovelhead primary cover.
This approach (charge the customer while the technician learns the product) is very common in the tech industry. It happens all the time when hiring consultants to work on or install technology. Because the tech industry changes constantly, you can only be an expert for about 5 minutes... so the “train then work” approach doesn’t work. Thing is: if you get a GREAT technician, you still get the work done in a reasonable timeframe. They use experience and skills honed over time to rapidly adapt, learn, and apply. I suspect this is what independent car/bike technicians do. I personally am turned off by the sign behind the service counter that says (to paraphrase) “although we love all Harley’s, and all our customers, we won’t work on anything that’s not a twin cam, m8, or recent Sporty.” Maybe I’m in the minority, but that really breaks the illusion of a product with durability and attachment to the past. But I get it-a dealer wants low risk/high reward (which usually equates to volume) work. Like you said, it’s just biz... I just wish The Motor Company would pay more attention to, and homage, to their past by supporting old bikes. Take a look at Porsche and their support of older cars with the Porsche Classic P&A and service offers for a great example of how I’d like it to be done.
John I totally get it....it’s why I’ve been learning to do all the work myself on my 2000XL1200C and why I visit your channel often. 👍🏻. Love your content!
None of my bikes have ever been serviced by the dealership, I do my own EVERYTHING. All you need is a service manual and all the required tools. I'm on my 6th Harley Davidson (Evo's only). Two of which have gone well into the 100k mile range. No computer bikes with cam chain tensioners for me. I MUST have throttle cables and a carburetor for anything I can get on and ride to California and back and have no fear of being stranded on the side of the road for some stupid sensor to fail.
I only ride old Harleys! The new bikes have no carb and computers Running the bike and cost tons to have fixed! My 98 Fatboy is not good when you turn! It’s not ez to ride because it sits so low to the floor! You can hear my bike!From A long ways! It is only A 1340cc! So A kid on A bicycle can pass me! But I have so much fun riding about with the potato potato sound! I don’t care that the old Harley is slow and hard to ride! I LOVE THE SOUND OF AN OLD HARLEY WITH A CARB! The new Harley cost so much for anything you buy for it! I hate the new computer controlled bikes! There are to ez to ride thanks to the computer!! You can’t hear the new Harley! THANKS TO THE COMPUTER! When the new Harley needs service! The dealer is looking at your Leg and arm for payment !!!!!!! The Harley is nice looking and fun to ride! When that old lady dos not hear you And she turns in to you! Or when the battery dies for the alarm And the bike will not start! This has happen to people I know! Thanks for making this video!!!!!!
I took all the early model courses at school too, so when I went shopping for a dealer to work at, I lucked out and found one that had a franchise since the 1920's, still had -ALL- the factory special tools to work on every damn thing back to flatheads and knuckles, a decent machine shop and the parts and service managers that were big fans of the old stuff. I worked on plenty of knuckles, pans, shovels, servi-cars, as well as building major high performance engines from the case up for the dealer drag racing team. It was an awesome gig until the economy tanked and suddenly the focus of the business changed dramatically. Several career moves later I worked as an Independent, which was fun and very diverse, but my local enthusiast pool wasn't big enough to support me.
The issue is the so called Tec's at the dealer only know how to work on New bikes that they have gone to school for . And a real mechanic can work on anything ! One is a part changer . The other diagnosis and repairs the issue with whatever they are working on. Enough said period .
You can see this on this channel. Often times he is reading printouts trying to figure out how to do his job. It’s like the customers are paying him to learn. I guess that’s how it goes sometimes...
John Maxwell About 20. Great stuff, so I’ve been watching a lot. Maybe I just saw it on the last couple (by chance). I DID just change the oil on my lawnmower without looking anything up so....I’m kind of a big time mechanic myself!😄
I was just curious. Most of my content is new to everyone type stuff. New to me and the viewers. The old stuff I work on is generally aggravating, so I don’t get the camera out for that 😂
Great insight as always. You made some good points concerning the Motor Company, and independent bike shops. Giving proper respect for all. Great work Brother.
The guys at El Paso Barnett HD were very cool to point me to the perfect shop for my '86 FXR. The shop is owned by a former tech. Most dealerships keep a good network of friendly shops to point clients of HD motorcycles of every era! Cool video!
Just sold my 83 ironhead sportster today. It was a fun bike and rode like a dinosaur but had a great sound and always got a lot of looks and questions. My local HD dealership didn't want to touch it which is understandable but I know an old timer with a small shop who grew up wrenching on the old stuff. It's good to have those guys around still, good video!
Bought a new bike in the spring hoping to restore the sportster but started realizing I don't have the time to do it. Still ran and rode but could use a rebuild, lots of oil leakages going on and I didn't want it to sit any more
I think the catch 22 of the thing is that if the folks who have the knowledge and the experience with early model aren't passing it on to people who are hungry to learn it, then that knowledge and experience will slowly fade away, and that'd be a shame. I enjoyed the early model class, but it in no way prepares you to wrench on those sorts of engines. Getting to put my hands in a motor that was built in the 40s was incredible, but I wouldnt be comfortable charging someone money to do it. The role of new sales and service in a dealership vs old sales and service in aftermarket shops is a great comparison though, and I think it sheds some light on the overall picture of the bike business at large. Thanks for bringing it up and talking about it.
This is a great topic to discuss. I think that the cost and frequency of repair required in owning an older model motorcycle (not just Harley either) is something that people need to consider more before purchasing one of those bikes. When I was learning to ride it was on hand me down bikes from the 70s and the first thing I found was that they need a lot of attention. This leaves you with two options: Learn to work on it yourself, or find someone who specializes in that model or make from that era. There were plenty of quirks on my old Honda that I couldn't figure out but a specialty shop knew the issue and solution immediately. It's this tribal knowledge that makes it unreasonable to expect a dealership to continue to support models from decades ago reasonably. Great content and keep up the good work!
I think a lot of it has a lot to do with "one stop shop" mentality that a lot of big box stores have fostered these days. Sometimes even if a place CAN do everything you need done it doesn't mean they will be the best people for the job. At least I can say there are still some people who respect when you tell them you're not the right person for the job. I know I've turned away some jobs that would have made decent cash because it was in the best interest of the customer. As Techs you have a vested interest in the profitability of the dealership or shop you work for and I think you did a great job explaining how that works.
Great topic! I have a great dealer close and a favorite small private shop also. The dealer gets my newer stuff and the other gets my older stuff when I can't do it myself. I feel the value is good in each.
Great video dude I really enjoyed the ride on those curvy roads. Thanks for all the information I truly believe that your probably the most honest mechanic working on Harley's that I've ever met oh, well not to say that there aren't other honest mechanics I really enjoyed your video
I understand the idea of working different platforms. I started on F-16s, trained on F-117s, moved to an adversary squadron of F-5s, now i work on F-18s legacy and super, E-2s, and F-16s again.
Always good information. I am on the bike in western Canada and have missed your previous episodes. I love the sound of your Sportster. Mine is 16 Road King. 8000 miles in the past 6 months. Be safe.
You’re absolutely right about the aftermarket parts Industry. I have two very similar Harley Davidson‘s sitting in my garage. One of them has a factory Harley Davidson passenger backrest and the other one I bought from a cheaper place off of Amazon. The genuine Harley Davidson one fits perfectly it is smooth and very easy to take on and off. The aftermarket one doesn’t fit, it takes me forever to get the thing latched on and when it comes time to remove it it takes me 20 minutes because the latches don’t work and I have to pry it off with a screwdriver.
Good to know, cause I just bought an old XLH in great shape. And I'm fortunate to have a great after market shop that knows the bike and does excellent work on it for me. Did have an awesome old dog who knew the older stuff a few years back when I had my 76 shovel,, I do love the sound of those old Irons,,, I didn't and still don't mind payin the time n parts for good work on my older ride, I'm just glad to be getting up again. Great info and Love the ride along vid too, thanks John. Stay frosty.
Went to Laconia in 2017, my buddy's 03 Fatboy decided it had had enough on the way up and the primary took a dump on him. Bike was towed to a dealer in Massachusetts, they don't work on bikes over ten years old. We were stuck, they finally agreed to work on it $115 an hour. When you're stuck on an out of state ride it's hard to find an independent shop. But I do understand your point, about old bikes .
Don’t let people be so hard on you keep doing what your doing boss man. No one is perfect I have learned so much in such little time watching your videos.
Hey John good video no one is right 100% of the time don’t stress about it. I have 2 bikes 2001 FLHTPI and a 2018 Ultra Limited anniversary. The 2001 goes to the local Harley (private) shop when the job is something I can’t do myself they work on the older bikes and have the older parts on the shelf . I enjoy wrenching on both of them but the 2018 goes to the dealer because you guys have the latest training and mostly because of warranty work. The problem I see is where are the mechanics today going for training to keep current with technology the same thing happens in the automotive industry the diagnostics has become very brand specific.
I completely understand dealerships focusing on newer bikes. I've an 01, Nightrain but truth be told I'm a died in the wool Kawasaki Man. Even my independent mechanic that has serviced my Kawis for 15 years has told me he will not work on my Harley. He's not familiar with them, .. he can make more money on what he knows and doesn't think it fair that he learn Harleys at $100. an hour on my nickel. I can appreciate that. My issue is finding a reliable independent mechanic that does older Harleys. I can handle brakes and fluids, motor, tranny primary, myself. Hell, last year I had an issue with the down tube in the gas tank from the pressure regulator to the petcock that had the bike bucking like it was out of fuel with half a tank. I pulled the fuel system out myself and replaced the cracked tubes causing my problem, .. the first time I actually "worked" on a Harley. My repair was less than $130 in parts. I've no doubt the dealer would have handed me a $600-$700 bill, .. if not more. I don't think they're screwing me, .. I used to work for a Chevy dealer when I was a kid. Dealerships don't half ass anything, .. they're by the book and likely would have been replacing parts that didn't necessarily need to be replaced. They've franchise risk to consider and I understand that. By the way, the Harley Service manual is close to useless. I got more insight from TH-cam. But, the issue is finding a reliable mechanic. I don't mind paying for something, everybody has to earn a living.
Very limited 04 Sportster and if my family didn’t go here for years they wouldn’t touch it anymore; except Master tech is now the primary source because only 1 or 2 other guys are capable!
I get customer gripes about this, but this is fairly common practice and should surprise no one. THIS is why aftermarket shops exist. I come from an IT background, and while it's not the same as the automotive/motorcycle world, the same business and nuances apply. It gets to a point where it's not sustainable from a profit standpoint to continue to support tech past a certain date. Technology changes drastically, and expecting NEW product sellers and dealers to able to work on ANY new bike, including that 1973 ride (40 years+ today) is ridiculous. Leave it to the aftermarket shops
Great video John. I used to have a 04 ultra classic until I totaled it. I used to take it to a independent shop cause I felt the same way but even the independent shop will charge a butt load of money. I would never walk out of that shop less than 800 $ bill. I started going to a dealership that a friend recomended and my highest bill from them was 500. Since the ultra I purchased a 2017 road glide special and love it. Just turned 10k today need to take it in for service. Dealership also can make deals on services.
absolutely. I just talked to a guy that had paid more for a shirt and a motorcycle part off the internet, just because he assumed the dealer would cost more. When he found out how much the dealer cost, well, lets say he was mad...
Some good thoughts. I have a 98 evo, 78 shovel and a 17 M8. I do all my own work on them. Fortunately I haven't had a warranty issue with the M8. Lots of good Indies around that will work on old stuff. Interesting when I go to a dealer to order certain things for the shovel and the guy behind the parts counter looks at me like I'm crazy. Obsolete they say! Harley dealers around here are $100 plus an hour for shop labor.
Thank you for explaining why I kept getting screwed in South Carolina. I used to own a Frankenstein. The New Dealers wouldn't touch it & the Old Schoolers kept Screwing me. I traded up to an Anniversary Bike from a reputable Used Dealer in Florida. Although a situation has recently arisen & I'm getting a little skeptical again. Rock on John 🤘🏼
It's no problem. I can fix my own evo. You're missing out though... it's SO easy to work on, no special tools, etc. etc. BUT ULTIMATELY... as a 31 y/o with a evo as a first bike, the local dealership turning me away when I had a broken spoke and a shot bearing in my rear wheel and just wanted to pay a few hundred bucks to get it back on the rode... yeah I am NOT going to buy a new bike from them. Maybe a crate motor.... but not a whole new bike...
I have two old bikes bikes. One is 36 the other is 31 years old. I have so much fun working on them. I feel wrenching on an old bike is part of buying and owning an old bike. Hell, in some cases, that was true when these old bikes were new 30+ years ago.
Hey John, Thanks for the clarity on the Sturgis belt an primary drive good stuff man. I appreciate your knowledge man ,Big ol dirty thumbs up man ride safe stay dry.
I have an '01 Sporty. I do all the work on the bike. Got a HD shop manual and a Mikuni manual for the carb. Fun to do it all, even if it takes me some time. Indie shop close to me would work on if I need it.
I find it funny that the XL, with its smaller displacement, sounds better and beefier than the big twins. Thats coming from a guy who had an 06 XL and now an 03 TC88. Hearing your bike in this vid reminded me of that. It took a set of aftermarket cams on the TC to get close to what my stock XL sounded like.
I don't foul harley completely for not working on the older gen bikes. That creates opportunity for small business owners and that's slowly fading away in the market place. Thanks for having a fair and impartial opinion especially since you work for HD.
I just want say this... The roads you ride and live near, are pretty kick ass. I live and ride in Phoenix, NOTHING like your location. I'm getting tired of all the cages, Africa type heat and stop lights every quarter mile. Keep up the good work John, I watch all your videos. ~Ride Fast, Take Chances!
Tom Lazzara you should check out northern california your pretty close its a six to eight hour ride from Phoenix but beautiful up here i live just east of Yosemite.
I live in Humboldt County, its a 12+ hour drive to LA. (Not a short hop to escape Arizona heat.) Then again, I consider SF to be Central Ca.since its 5 hours South of me. We do have some epic roads, the 36 (construction right now) the 299, 199, etc... Not that it would be any cooler but Tuscon has some nice roads and would be closer. good winter time run anyway.
That's interesting. So, if there's a general aversion to the dealerships working on older bikes would you be able to do that on your own time or would that be considered a conflict? You sounded like you were interested in working on older bikes so learn-as-you-go at $40 an hour (and no split with the dealership) might be a good option.
Makes sense-if the dealer's not willing/able to work on older machines,I can't see how it'd be a conflict if one of their techs wants to work on 'em on his/her own time,away from the dealership.
The only conflict is some customers are not honest and will say a harley tech worked on it now you owe me . Once again the liability of parts obsolete problem. Kinda like a 1982 tour glide try finding that rear sprocket. 285.99
I've got a 1991 XLH883, I do most of my own work, but my dealer is more than happy to do the heavy stuff. Yes, some factory parts are obsolete, but perfectly good aftermarket parts are there. It's all up to the dealers attitude, and the availability of techs!
It's okay, at least you acknowledge the fact that you need to learn more about the history of the motor company. Most are clueless and can give a damn .
It makes a lot of sense. My dad took his 73 Honda 350 Four to the Honda shop to get his carbs fixed and they had no idea what they were looking at. So he payed 200 for a 3 day garage and was fn pissed!
I totally see your point of view and I wish we all could do that across the automotive industry unfortunately they believe that the buck stops at the dealership level and most techs are trained in models that are less then 5-8 years old most of the old timers have retired or moved on so we are left to muddle through it and in turn make the dealership look incompetent. Like always love your videos and great info. Hey don’t worry about the miss info we can’t always be right!
John, what year did you start at MMI and we’re you riding a blacked out street glide? I bent between 2016 and 2019. I swear you started MTP once I was in tech 5 or 7 in Harley at the time. Not to be weird, I’m just curious.
It makes sense to mainly deal with current/recent line-up. No sense in having older bikes taking up time from the current (read still paying customers) lineup. Of course, this depends upon the 'density' of old vs new bikes in one's area. When some of the local Ford dealers still had 'owners' rather than 'investment groups', they used to let some techs work on older cars on 'off' hours. It was another revenue stream for the dealership's parts/accessory dept, and better money for the techs. I don't know what the billing arrangement was, but it was better rate percentage for the techs because they were pulling these customers in. (I think they may have 'rented' a bay, kinda like barbershops.) Only the better techs were allowed to take (or ever even took) advantage of using the facilities. I don't think they do this anymore, either.
Yep your right man I have a softail in Australia ( live in the uk too) my mate looks after it for me keep them wheels moving but he was very shocked to here the sales man at the local HD shop say "nap sorry man it's to old we don't do old bikes" when I recently went to the HD shop to see the owner a friend of mine he confirmed they are way too busy in the summer when my harley was trying to be booked in as HD give his shop times to keep to on sales pdi's and servicing on new models. I do understand and there is another shop that does chops and classic bikes so it goes there now. Awesome channel man cheers. Paperboy \m/
Good vid. I’m a dealer tech. Dead on. My only beef with HD is cost of the bikes. They make enough profit on bikes new that they could lower their price, take up more market share and be higher volume.
I can definitely relate, my friend. Ive been a mechanic for 35 years if you count military. Folks who dont know seem to assume that just because of that, you should know everything. If I get a job on something that Ive never trained in, never seen, can I figure it out? Absolutely! Will it be efficient or cost effective? Probably not. With more serious stuff on my bike, I bring it to a shop. Why? Im not a motorcycle mechanic. A good tech can spot things that I would probably miss, do it better and do it more efficiently. Love your videos BTW
Dude!! You Rock. Move to Canada!!!! I'm Here Its Awesome I ride my bike all year round! Bicycle that is lol >;-) Learning lots from you, Thanks for posting! Rock N Roll
My Harley’s have never seen a HD dealership. I’ve been close with a local independent bike shop for years. And they’ve maintained my 10’ glide and my shovel bobber for 1/4 of the Harley price with no problems. I ride my bikes hard and almost daily. Have had electrical problems, charging problems, tires, brakes, clutch adjustments, got rear ended on my glide and did all insurance work through independent shop. I couldn’t afford HD dealer prices for either bike. I have little doubt HD tech’s are skilled, but the same skill level vs price is just better else ware, in my experience.
I'll weigh in here as a new owner of a new 1998 evo springer. The bike was in great shape but sat for a while. I got her running, but wanted the bike gone through by a pro and decided to have the manifold seals and carb done by a pro, I'm an amature hack. Plus, i wanted the springer front end brought up to factor specs and a full safety check of the bike. I called around was turned down left and right, except for my local dealer. They have a crusty old greasy guy they keep in the back.. he had the bike done in no time and the bike was perfect. Tuned better than I could ever do. Yes labor is 115 an hour, but the bike was done with a level a trust. I'll use them again as I am planning to ride the heck out of this bike.
Oh yeah I believe your accurate , your my go to HARLEY guy on TH-cam ever since I found you on here and I thumbs up all your vids unlike a lot of people , RIDE ON BROTHER HARLEY DAVIDSON FOR LIFE I ride a 04 xl1200r and I love it 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Saw the oldest "new" bike today. Old timer up here in New Brunswick Canada from Oklahoma on a 2017 Street Glide. 78K miles on it. Told us he got it on a Friday, the following Monday he was back in for the 1000 mile service.
I work at a independent shop. I specialize in Harley Davidson and everything that no one in the shop wants to work on. We are a dealer that sells hundreds of used motorcycles. We will turn a way some motorcycles if they are in really bad shape or if they are super old. With old bike some of the time they weren’t taken care of and need a lot of love to get back on the road.
I heartedly agree with Michael Redcrow. I have a 17 yo 1600cc Roadstar (don't hate me 🔫💣) and the Dealership won't service the bike for the same reasons you and Mike mention. Fortunately, I have a mechanic with his own shop and he loves my bike as much as I do. Right now, the bike sits in my living room/shop, on a lift while I'm restoring it. ...I'll be buying a Harley this coming August to ride while I work on my current bike.
What's your opinion on the 2011 Street glide with the 98 motor I'm looking at one with only 5,000 mi on it for $13,000 and do you think that this is a good option or should I be looking for something a little bit newer thanks for your time and consideration
Harley is all about Nostalgia....Until it comes to Old Harleys..........
True, also quite funny.
Excellent topic John. I owned a small business with (up to) 8 employees for close to 40 years. It was a struggle pretty much the entire time, to turn a profit. There were many a time everyone got paid, but me. We did very high quality, high end work. I can relate to the grumbling heard from people about the high cost of buying, owning, maintaining a Harley. There will always be people that want a high quality product, but don't want to pay that price (then complain about it). I personally put a Harley Davidson motorcycle in a similar category (price / quality) with high end automobiles, watches, furniture, private jets, boats, etc, etc. Most can appreciate the quality, but not all can afford it. I would love to own a new 2018 Sport Glide, but the price tag is out of range for me. Instead of complaining that Harleys are too expensive, I will continue to ride my old putt putt and save for one. Maybe in a year or two, a nice, low mileage used one will appear in my area.
i agree brother
@mld Harley does an excellent job with marketing and pricing for that image. Whether or not that it true is another issue. high end automobiles, private jets,boats, etc generally speaking are not like Harleys in that you usually don't pay more for less performance but higher reliability. Its usually the opposite with most industries (and every segment of motorcycling other than cruisers)
Nissan Dealer tech here, we work on anything with the Nissan name on it. Its not often you see cars older than MY98 come through the shop but if they do the customer is welcomed with open arms. The customer trusts the dealer to repair their vehicle properly because the dealer is the most qualified to do so. Turning a customer away who invested their money into your brand is bad for business. Also the customers that own these older vehicles care more about them then your average customer with a new vehicle, they're understanding about the complications that come along with owning older vehicles and are usually much more willing to purchase the recommended repairs. Customers willing to stay loyal to the brand and have their vehicle serviced at the dealer time after time are not the customers to be turning away. These are the customers you go the extra mile for. Being a young technician myself it is a challenge for me to learn the older systems and inner workings of these older vehicles but I do so knowing it will improve my competency in the end. Just my .02 cents. Like the vids and the channel. Have a good one!
I ran my 89 softail for years with no problems, and had not run into the "sorry, we don't work on old bikes" mantra til I started having electrical problems out in the desert and rolled into Reno in about 2002. I WAS able to talk them in to looking at my problem, the tech ran down a bad ground wire and I tooled on down the highway, but I had learned a valuable lesson. Most scooter shops have damn fine mechanics working for them who know their stuff..
This is a great subject. The dealership I worked at we worked on everything that said HD on it. The oldest I worked on was a 1919 side hack. There was a really cool 1946 knuckle that was cool. Now 84.5 and older were straight time and materials. Evo and later was flat rate. Most shops will still work on Evo's, but not all. I was lucky enough to have guys with 30 plus years of experience to learn from. And to see what has changed and improved since I started on them.
bless your shop, wish i had one close to me that had that type service
That’s awesome! Makes sense. We work on some Evos that we have worked on for years. The new owners that get a pile welded metal, we generally have to turn down. Fenders welded to frames and such. Ya see the craziest stuff...
John Maxwell my craziest work order was a shovel traveling to Sturgis with the rear cylinder falling off was the concern. It was moving up and down. I just tightened the nuts adjusted the tappets filled oil swatted on the butt and sent it on its way. Knowing your limits is key with older bikes.
Being a tech for 20 plus years its not the shop dealer or A/M shop as you call them. It's all about the tech. I know many bad techs in dealers that should not be allowed to turn a wrench. I feel a tech/ shop can make your break the ownership of owning a motorcycle . Great info great video thank you for the info!
I always said that, it's all about the Tech!
Excellent information.
I liked how you included that H-D makes money from New Bike Sales. As a consumer that likes to support local and US made products and jobs, (when I can) this was one of my points in buying a 2017 FLHTCU. There are plenty of good condition, low mileage used Harleys around that I could have picked up for half of what I paid for my bike. I know several guys with decked out used automotive purchases that like to thump their chest about how much money they've "given" to the manufacturers of those vehicles. I just chuckle inside because the companies didn't make any money off them, they made money off the original buyer, years ago.
The second point was that this might be my last H-D as I'm in my 50's and I wanted a bike with warranty, that would be serviceable for the realistic life of the bike's touring ability.
I was a tech in a GM dealership in Baltimore for near a decade. We worked on anything anyone would bring in. I even did front end repair from pot hole damage on a Lamborghini gallardo, took 7 weeks to import the parts but I got it done. We also did work on anything from muscle cars to rusty old Toyota’s.
A rider MIGHT luck out and find a dealer who has a couple of old timers who still do some work on older bikes,or a younger tech who owns and rides an older scoot himself. NEVER hurts to ask. I even found a tech at one dealer who was a good looking woman,she rode a flatside Shovel bagger. She was very good on Shovels AND newer stuff. I heard from friends in that area she quit to get married and raise a family-Guess I shoulda invited her out to Dinner when I first met her.
A couple years ago broke a cluch cable on my 94 fxrp the Harley dealer didn't have one in stock they said we only stock parts for the new bikes I said I through the new ones weren't supposed to break down. Thank god for J&P cycles cost half as much as Harley wanted for them to order one and would take a week to get.Got it from J&P in two days.I'll keep my old Harley s&s carb no computers no fuel pumps. I can look up on Google how to fix most anything on her and pay myself 100 dollars an hour.
Top ramble while you rumbled. I love pulling up at my dealership on a Saturday morning with all the HOG people out front on their new rides. My 1987 FXRS-SP has never had a Harley Tech touch it. I go to the dealership for lubes and the odd part. They always comment on how well it looks and especially sounds. 'What is it?' they ask.
Now if you know your Harleys you never have to ask that, and you also know when the Sturgis' came out!!! Enough said.
Great stuff John, we love you down here in Australia. My 1987 is on historic registration, about US$100 per year. And like a lot of Harleys, will keep going for a long time and never see the hydaulic hoist of a Harley shop.
Peter
Australia
Peter Hughes If I had a dollar for every time them HOG's ask me about my "Dyna"... I even keep memes to show them! "FXR, not Dyna... 😂
@@roymoderatto got a 88-sp myself get dickheads saying nice sportster ,i just say ' whatever ya reckon '. Even vasoline valley harley spare parts section had no clue when i said 1988 FXRS-SP.
For the most part you are right. But the cost for mile maintenance is crazy. I feel if you ride it you should be able to do an oil change and inspection. No better way to know you bike than get your hands on it
I have a '78 Sporty. Went into my local Harley dealership to buy a new battery and got the run around before they finally admitted to me that they couldn't help me. their books only went back to '91. Lugged my battery up to a cycle and water sport dealership 40 miles away and was getting the same story when an old tech took a good look at it, suggested the parts tech call up the company they buy their batteries from and see if they have it. Turns out my battery was their brand. Sure enough they had it and I paid in advance. Had to go back a week later to pick it up but I had a new battery. ... What burnt my cookie was the whole attitude of your bike is too old so we can't help you. Okay, I get that, but to not be willing to help with a suggestion where to look locally and just left me hanging pissed me off to no end. I now refuse to spend a dime in a H.D. dealership.
Stephen; True that. I have a great bike shop to go to now. First time I went in to get a new pet-cock I told him about my bike and you should have seen the grin on his face. Gave me an earful of history. Yeah, us old duffers don't buy the okey doke like the kids today.
I got tired of shelling out large (for me) money for a new battery once a year (until the shops quit stocking 'em) for my ol' 1980 FLHS,so I modified the lid on the battery box for terminal clearance and made a spacer to hold the battery over to one end and installed a plain ol' Sears Die-hard garden tractor battery-that got me a battery that lasted 5 years. That cost me $25.00 every five years.
John; I take it as far as I can go whenever I can. Just a few weeks ago I bought a new pair of ladies H.D. boots on eBay. $185.00 , worn once. pristine condition. I paid $45 and that's with shipping. Did the same with my helmet a few years ago $165 originally, I paid $60. Harley will never see an original purchase from me.
Yup & it is that attitude that is losing HD a shit ton of money.
Moors Hound; As my father taught me, "Those who will not listen, must feel, and the best way to make 'em feel is to hit 'em in the pocketbook." It's all about loyalty. Treat me right and I'm loyal.
Appreciate the breakdown of things. Very fair for sure.
In the mean time I’ll keep turning wrenches on my 1988 85th Anniversary FXRS.
I have now watched ALL your videos, upon completing this one. Thank you for what you do.
I just bought a 2004 road king custom with 6400 miles on it and I watch all your tips on how to maintain and do stuff myself thank you
This is why I’ve learned to work on my own Harley.
You are a stand-up guy John! Thanks for the cool ride, nice riding country. I appreciate your honesty, opinions and down to earth talk. Don't change a thing man!
John, Love your videos. you are correct. you can't charge the customer for the techs learning curve.
Good video as always,thanks for your time and knowledge.As an owner of a '99 heritage classic,I can relate to "it's to old to work on mentality".So here's a couple of suggestions,find the manual specific to your ride study it completely and fix what you can yourself,after all that's what Harley's were all about in the beginning.Barring that find a shop that has a tech,that does good work on older bikes.
I think a bigger reason dealerships won't work on older models is the liability factor.
I work in the service industry and I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "it was working fine before you touched it."
Most consumers or end users aren't "educated" enough to understand how their equipment operates.
If someone brings in an old shovel, and never properly maintained it through the years, the dealership could end up owning that bike because it came in as a ticking time bomb to begin with.
Those are just my thoughts.
Ya there are a lot of dishonest people who will just try to pin things on the dealer knowingly to try to get something for free. I've been a dealer tech for 15 years and have seen it more times than I can count.
Yes as a Indy shop owner I see it to many times a yr. Replace front tire bike still wobbles. Ok rim is straight bearings are nice and firm balance is correct. Oh look front motor mount bolts are loose.
My bike never leaked oil before. Drop oil had 4 qts of oil in a 2005 dyna and the breather hoses are cracked at breather bolts.
Very true
Brother love the videos but totally disagree with you... Anyone who is willing to put their name on a product and sell it should back that product no matter how old it is. Image if Honda or Toyota did the same, told their customers after 5 years we are not going to work on our cars, they would be out of business! Harley is totally wrong to treat their customers in this fashion. The answer is keep a tech in the shop that knows how to work on “OG” stuff.
Those techs often leave the dealer to go to the aftermarket shops I was talking about. I might not have been clear about how that works out. Also, my Ford reference was to showcase that HD is not the only one. Another commenter used BMW as an example. Our shop works on bikes 20 years old and newer. Just like the Honda shop in town. I was just trying to bring to light some information. Not necessarily sway any opinions.
Each Dealership is independently owned. So they probably make these policies independently.
I’m a Toyota tech ( in aus ) and generally speaking we will send away cars older then ‘05 not because we don’t know ‘how’ to work on them but because Toyota only supports workshop manuals to ‘05 and the computer is only guaranteed to work on cars ‘05 and newer. So we cant assure the guest that we can provide our normal level of quality for there car. It’s all about meeting expectations for us. That being said if a guest came in with a 1955 stout and was happy to throw money at it we would work on it but he would get better value elsewhere.
LG does the same.
After 5 !!! Years they tell you to buy new cos they don’t have the parts.
Go to your local Chevy and count how many cars in the shop are more than 5 years old. Very few. 20 year old cars- almost non existent. That's what local shops are for.
I've had my 92 Heritage at Battleborn HD for 3 months now. They're working on it, biggest wait is for parts. Glad they're doing it.
In New Jersey the rate is $115.00 p/h if you want all three oils changed $300 to $350 and you have to make an appointment to spend your hard earned dollars! But John I love your honesty & integrity it’s what I learned from my dad and while attending West Point, don’t change you are a breath of fresh air!
Same pricing here in Orlando
I do most of my own work on my Shovelhead. A old Mikuni 38VM carb tunes nice. I did my own honing and valve lapping. Last fall. Will take to Independent shop if I can't do it.
John, You do a great job! Don't let anyone make you question the appreciation the rest of us have for you.
Planned obsolescence is the world we live in. What does a customer do if he doesnt have an after mkt dealer near by ? What if you break down 2000 miles from home and no after mkt dealer around ? So as a customer what do you do if you are not a mechanic. Sell your bike after 10 yrs, yeah the dealers love that,. It’s not just Harley my local Polaris dealer won’t work on my 20 yr old ATV. Silly me for making it last that long. Sounds like a great opportunity to become an after market shop if you are mechanically inclined. The parts are available I’m sure. So no matter what the end result is the customer is not first, the company is. And companies wonder why customer’s are not loyal
If Harley only knew just how much people loved their old bikes, they become a part of you, you cannot just junk it or sell it & buy the next new shiny bike.
“Why be you when you can be new,” kinda of thinking it sounds like.
So true. This month makes an even 40 years ago I bought Myrtle new. 1979 XLH Iron Head quad cam. I learned to wrench on a 72 superglide before that. Anybody can get a HD service manual, and learn. Fixing your Harley is part of being a Biker. Stay true, don't buy new.
This is why I do all my own work on my 1980 sportster
may you continue to do so for many years.
I could not imagine expecting people that are in their mid to late 30s with over a decade of experience, being expected to work on your motorcycle. Older riders are some of the most entitled people, I see comments on videos and have had conversations in the dealership with older riders, complaining about how the mechanics cant work on older motorcycles. Grandpa, you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that you are dealing with something that is 30-40 years old, your AMF era motorcycle is approaching historical vehicle status. It is beyond Classic and Antique in a few states.
@Pit Viper Truth hurt that much?
Owning an old bike is the perfect opportunity to learn to wrench. If you screw the pooch on a $3500 bike (or less), it's not the disaster that it would be on a new $15k+ bike. That said, it's not that hard to learn if you just apply yourself, especially if you are only learning to work on your specific model, though a lot of it carries over. Back in the day, part of owning a Harley was learning to maintain it and tinkering with it, Harleys were always the higher maintenance and customizer/tinkerer's bike. If you wanted to just put gas in it and ride it without much effort, you bought Jap. If you were strapped for cash, you bought a basket case, and rebuilt it from the frame up, and knew every inch of it when you were done. If you wanted a chopper, or a bobber, you learned to fabricate. There weren't any "bikes in a box" or bolt together choppers.
The market is flooded with inexpensive older bikes, and the dealers want to make it as difficult to own one as they can, to pressure you into buying new. Same thing for the factory, make as much as possible into black boxes that require expensive tools or publicly unavailable tools to plug them into, so they can't be easily repaired by the owner. Instant cash flow for the dealers and the factory.
Nowadays with all the electronic gizmos, it seems like the "heart" has gone out of Harley, and cars as well for that matter. Now they just want to plug it into an analyzer and be told what the issue is, then replace a module, especially dealers. Don't tune a carb, have the fancy "computer controlled fuel injection system" remapped electronically, oh, and now we are pushing for laws to make it illegal for you to remap it yourself! Big brother knows better than you!
Quick fixes for maximum profit, minimal training or effort, and heaven forbid a good mechanic be able to work on something old. Maybe it's more that dealers want to only hire someone out of the tech school with minimum knowledge of current production bikes only, so they can pay them a substandard wage? A good mechanic costs money. Same thing is happening, and has been happening in industry. No one will hire a machinist anymore, they want a "machine operator" to just be a button pusher, they earn less. They would hire trained circus monkeys if they could, to maximize profit at the expense of quality.
If you can't or won't learn to do your own work, find an independent shop that has real mechanics, the ones that do it for the love of working on the machines, and can work on about any older bike, and tell you more about them than you'd thought anyone could know. Those can be hard to find these days, but they are out there. There is a huge difference between a mechanic, and a "tech". Once you find a good mechanic, the difference will be obvious.
Maybe I am just showing my age :P (Get off my lawn!!)
At a certain point those older bikes are usually built and maintained by older techs. It's not rocket science. Guys back in the day wrenched on them like normal. Usually a local indie shop picks up the slack. Or you have to learn. No real way around that. Owning a Shovel would be kick ass though.
John Maxwell I love to watch your videos I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it
John, love the vids you do a great job. Also love the idea of H-D dealers giving a discount to local independent shops who work on older bikes. Unfortunately not the case for me. Even worse and part of my point for commenting is in 2016 the motor company stopped any remaining dealerships who had online sales (they were cheaper) from selling to anyone associated with a motorcycle shop like myself. Hugely disappointing on several levels. Now anytime I want to use OEM parts I have to make 2 trips to the local dealership and pay full retail. Not exactly efficient, profitable, or motivating to use H-D parts. Hopefully this changes in the future but somehow think that declining sales effected this decision. Regardless, keep up the good work!
To my knowledge the Willie G Special and Sturgis bikes were the only two that I am aware of that came factory equipped with dual belt drive primary and secondary drive. If you wanna see weird stuff look at the 1979 to 1984 FLT (Tour Glide) bikes. They were 5 speed shovelheads with an enclosed oil chain drive! The 84 Evo model had a chain drive that was enclosed and immersed in oil and it had a shovelhead primary cover.
This approach (charge the customer while the technician learns the product) is very common in the tech industry. It happens all the time when hiring consultants to work on or install technology. Because the tech industry changes constantly, you can only be an expert for about 5 minutes... so the “train then work” approach doesn’t work.
Thing is: if you get a GREAT technician, you still get the work done in a reasonable timeframe. They use experience and skills honed over time to rapidly adapt, learn, and apply.
I suspect this is what independent car/bike technicians do.
I personally am turned off by the sign behind the service counter that says (to paraphrase) “although we love all Harley’s, and all our customers, we won’t work on anything that’s not a twin cam, m8, or recent Sporty.” Maybe I’m in the minority, but that really breaks the illusion of a product with durability and attachment to the past. But I get it-a dealer wants low risk/high reward (which usually equates to volume) work. Like you said, it’s just biz...
I just wish The Motor Company would pay more attention to, and homage, to their past by supporting old bikes. Take a look at Porsche and their support of older cars with the Porsche Classic P&A and service offers for a great example of how I’d like it to be done.
John I totally get it....it’s why I’ve been learning to do all the work myself on my 2000XL1200C and why I visit your channel often. 👍🏻. Love your content!
None of my bikes have ever been serviced by the dealership, I do my own EVERYTHING. All you need is a service manual and all the required tools. I'm on my 6th Harley Davidson (Evo's only). Two of which have gone well into the 100k mile range. No computer bikes with cam chain tensioners for me. I MUST have throttle cables and a carburetor for anything I can get on and ride to California and back and have no fear of being stranded on the side of the road for some stupid sensor to fail.
I only ride old Harleys!
The new bikes have no carb and computers
Running the bike and cost tons to have fixed!
My 98 Fatboy is not good when you turn!
It’s not ez to ride because it sits so low to the floor!
You can hear my bike!From A long ways!
It is only A 1340cc! So A kid on A bicycle can pass me!
But I have so much fun riding about with the potato potato sound!
I don’t care that the old Harley is slow and hard to ride!
I LOVE THE SOUND OF AN OLD HARLEY WITH A CARB!
The new Harley cost so much for anything you buy for it!
I hate the new computer controlled bikes!
There are to ez to ride thanks to the computer!!
You can’t hear the new Harley! THANKS TO THE COMPUTER!
When the new Harley needs service! The dealer is looking at your
Leg and arm for payment !!!!!!!
The Harley is nice looking and fun to ride!
When that old lady dos not hear you
And she turns in to you!
Or when the battery dies for the alarm
And the bike will not start!
This has happen to people I know!
Thanks for making this video!!!!!!
🤣
96 fatboy here. Feel the same. Don't even use a battery tender.
I took all the early model courses at school too, so when I went shopping for a dealer to work at, I lucked out and found one that had a franchise since the 1920's, still had -ALL- the factory special tools to work on every damn thing back to flatheads and knuckles, a decent machine shop and the parts and service managers that were big fans of the old stuff. I worked on plenty of knuckles, pans, shovels, servi-cars, as well as building major high performance engines from the case up for the dealer drag racing team. It was an awesome gig until the economy tanked and suddenly the focus of the business changed dramatically. Several career moves later I worked as an Independent, which was fun and very diverse, but my local enthusiast pool wasn't big enough to support me.
The issue is the so called Tec's at the dealer only know how to work on New bikes that they have gone to school for . And a real mechanic can work on anything !
One is a part changer .
The other diagnosis and repairs the issue with whatever they are working on.
Enough said period .
You can see this on this channel. Often times he is reading printouts trying to figure out how to do his job. It’s like the customers are paying him to learn. I guess that’s how it goes sometimes...
How many videos have you actually watched???
John Maxwell About 20. Great stuff, so I’ve been watching a lot. Maybe I just saw it on the last couple (by chance). I DID just change the oil on my lawnmower without looking anything up so....I’m kind of a big time mechanic myself!😄
I was just curious. Most of my content is new to everyone type stuff. New to me and the viewers. The old stuff I work on is generally aggravating, so I don’t get the camera out for that 😂
Great insight as always. You made some good points concerning the Motor Company, and independent bike shops. Giving proper respect for all. Great work Brother.
The guys at El Paso Barnett HD were very cool to point me to the perfect shop for my '86 FXR. The shop is owned by a former tech. Most dealerships keep a good network of friendly shops to point clients of HD motorcycles of every era! Cool video!
Thank you for all the great info you provide. I though my 03 RoadKing was getting too old to bring to the dealer.
Just sold my 83 ironhead sportster today. It was a fun bike and rode like a dinosaur but had a great sound and always got a lot of looks and questions. My local HD dealership didn't want to touch it which is understandable but I know an old timer with a small shop who grew up wrenching on the old stuff. It's good to have those guys around still, good video!
Why’d you sell it?
Bought a new bike in the spring hoping to restore the sportster but started realizing I don't have the time to do it. Still ran and rode but could use a rebuild, lots of oil leakages going on and I didn't want it to sit any more
I think the catch 22 of the thing is that if the folks who have the knowledge and the experience with early model aren't passing it on to people who are hungry to learn it, then that knowledge and experience will slowly fade away, and that'd be a shame. I enjoyed the early model class, but it in no way prepares you to wrench on those sorts of engines. Getting to put my hands in a motor that was built in the 40s was incredible, but I wouldnt be comfortable charging someone money to do it. The role of new sales and service in a dealership vs old sales and service in aftermarket shops is a great comparison though, and I think it sheds some light on the overall picture of the bike business at large. Thanks for bringing it up and talking about it.
This is a great topic to discuss. I think that the cost and frequency of repair required in owning an older model motorcycle (not just Harley either) is something that people need to consider more before purchasing one of those bikes. When I was learning to ride it was on hand me down bikes from the 70s and the first thing I found was that they need a lot of attention. This leaves you with two options: Learn to work on it yourself, or find someone who specializes in that model or make from that era. There were plenty of quirks on my old Honda that I couldn't figure out but a specialty shop knew the issue and solution immediately. It's this tribal knowledge that makes it unreasonable to expect a dealership to continue to support models from decades ago reasonably. Great content and keep up the good work!
Thank you! Kinda surprised at some of the back lash on this video.
I think a lot of it has a lot to do with "one stop shop" mentality that a lot of big box stores have fostered these days. Sometimes even if a place CAN do everything you need done it doesn't mean they will be the best people for the job. At least I can say there are still some people who respect when you tell them you're not the right person for the job. I know I've turned away some jobs that would have made decent cash because it was in the best interest of the customer. As Techs you have a vested interest in the profitability of the dealership or shop you work for and I think you did a great job explaining how that works.
Great topic! I have a great dealer close and a favorite small private shop also. The dealer gets my newer stuff and the other gets my older stuff when I can't do it myself. I feel the value is good in each.
Great video dude I really enjoyed the ride on those curvy roads. Thanks for all the information I truly believe that your probably the most honest mechanic working on Harley's that I've ever met oh, well not to say that there aren't other honest mechanics I really enjoyed your video
I understand the idea of working different platforms. I started on F-16s, trained on F-117s, moved to an adversary squadron of F-5s, now i work on F-18s legacy and super, E-2s, and F-16s again.
Always good information. I am on the bike in western Canada and have missed your previous episodes. I love the sound of your Sportster. Mine is 16 Road King. 8000 miles in the past 6 months. Be safe.
You’re absolutely right about the aftermarket parts Industry. I have two very similar Harley Davidson‘s sitting in my garage. One of them has a factory Harley Davidson passenger backrest and the other one I bought from a cheaper place off of Amazon. The genuine Harley Davidson one fits perfectly it is smooth and very easy to take on and off. The aftermarket one doesn’t fit, it takes me forever to get the thing latched on and when it comes time to remove it it takes me 20 minutes because the latches don’t work and I have to pry it off with a screwdriver.
Good to know, cause I just bought an old XLH in great shape. And I'm fortunate to have a great after market shop that knows the bike and does excellent work on it for me. Did have an awesome old dog who knew the older stuff a few years back when I had my 76 shovel,, I do love the sound of those old Irons,,, I didn't and still don't mind payin the time n parts for good work on my older ride, I'm just glad to be getting up again. Great info and Love the ride along vid too, thanks John. Stay frosty.
Went to Laconia in 2017, my buddy's 03 Fatboy decided it had had enough on the way up and the primary took a dump on him. Bike was towed to a dealer in Massachusetts, they don't work on bikes over ten years old. We were stuck, they finally agreed to work on it $115 an hour. When you're stuck on an out of state ride it's hard to find an independent shop. But I do understand your point, about old bikes .
Don’t let people be so hard on you keep doing what your doing boss man. No one is perfect I have learned so much in such little time watching your videos.
Hey John good video no one is right 100% of the time don’t stress about it. I have 2 bikes 2001 FLHTPI and a 2018 Ultra Limited anniversary. The 2001 goes to the local Harley (private) shop when the job is something I can’t do myself they work on the older bikes and have the older parts on the shelf . I enjoy wrenching on both of them but the 2018 goes to the dealer because you guys have the latest training and mostly because of warranty work. The problem I see is where are the mechanics today going for training to keep current with technology the same thing happens in the automotive industry the diagnostics has become very brand specific.
I completely understand dealerships focusing on newer bikes. I've an 01, Nightrain but truth be told I'm a died in the wool Kawasaki Man. Even my independent mechanic that has serviced my Kawis for 15 years has told me he will not work on my Harley. He's not familiar with them, .. he can make more money on what he knows and doesn't think it fair that he learn Harleys at $100. an hour on my nickel. I can appreciate that. My issue is finding a reliable independent mechanic that does older Harleys. I can handle brakes and fluids, motor, tranny primary, myself. Hell, last year I had an issue with the down tube in the gas tank from the pressure regulator to the petcock that had the bike bucking like it was out of fuel with half a tank. I pulled the fuel system out myself and replaced the cracked tubes causing my problem, .. the first time I actually "worked" on a Harley. My repair was less than $130 in parts. I've no doubt the dealer would have handed me a $600-$700 bill, .. if not more. I don't think they're screwing me, .. I used to work for a Chevy dealer when I was a kid. Dealerships don't half ass anything, .. they're by the book and likely would have been replacing parts that didn't necessarily need to be replaced. They've franchise risk to consider and I understand that. By the way, the Harley Service manual is close to useless. I got more insight from TH-cam. But, the issue is finding a reliable mechanic. I don't mind paying for something, everybody has to earn a living.
Well, I learned something new! I did not know the dealer would not work on older bikes. Thanks man....
Very limited 04 Sportster and if my family didn’t go here for years they wouldn’t touch it anymore; except Master tech is now the primary source because only 1 or 2 other guys are capable!
I get customer gripes about this, but this is fairly common practice and should surprise no one. THIS is why aftermarket shops exist. I come from an IT background, and while it's not the same as the automotive/motorcycle world, the same business and nuances apply. It gets to a point where it's not sustainable from a profit standpoint to continue to support tech past a certain date. Technology changes drastically, and expecting NEW product sellers and dealers to able to work on ANY new bike, including that 1973 ride (40 years+ today) is ridiculous. Leave it to the aftermarket shops
Always good info delivered in and entertaining way. Keep doing what you're doing.
Great video John. I used to have a 04 ultra classic until I totaled it. I used to take it to a independent shop cause I felt the same way but even the independent shop will charge a butt load of money. I would never walk out of that shop less than 800 $ bill. I started going to a dealership that a friend recomended and my highest bill from them was 500. Since the ultra I purchased a 2017 road glide special and love it. Just turned 10k today need to take it in for service. Dealership also can make deals on services.
absolutely. I just talked to a guy that had paid more for a shirt and a motorcycle part off the internet, just because he assumed the dealer would cost more. When he found out how much the dealer cost, well, lets say he was mad...
Some good thoughts. I have a 98 evo, 78 shovel and a 17 M8. I do all my own work on them. Fortunately I haven't had a warranty issue with the M8. Lots of good Indies around that will work on old stuff. Interesting when I go to a dealer to order certain things for the shovel and the guy behind the parts counter looks at me like I'm crazy. Obsolete they say! Harley dealers around here are $100 plus an hour for shop labor.
Honestly I was surprised when I went to my local harley and found out they still got shop manuals for an old 84 FXRT.
Thank you for explaining why I kept getting screwed in South Carolina. I used to own a Frankenstein. The New Dealers wouldn't touch it & the Old Schoolers kept Screwing me. I traded up to an Anniversary Bike from a reputable Used Dealer in Florida. Although a situation has recently arisen & I'm getting a little skeptical again. Rock on John 🤘🏼
It's no problem. I can fix my own evo. You're missing out though... it's SO easy to work on, no special tools, etc. etc. BUT ULTIMATELY... as a 31 y/o with a evo as a first bike, the local dealership turning me away when I had a broken spoke and a shot bearing in my rear wheel and just wanted to pay a few hundred bucks to get it back on the rode... yeah I am NOT going to buy a new bike from them. Maybe a crate motor.... but not a whole new bike...
I like the road you picked to ride! Nice video.
This explains why there are so many aftermarket HD shops around the HD dealership in my neighborhood.
I have two old bikes bikes. One is 36 the other is 31 years old. I have so much fun working on them. I feel wrenching on an old bike is part of buying and owning an old bike. Hell, in some cases, that was true when these old bikes were new 30+ years ago.
that's certainly a part of the fun of owning an older bike. Also, thanks to Dan Dan I've seen some of your videos. keep up the good work!
John Maxwell thanks, brother. It's motivating to read that from you!
Hey John, Thanks for the clarity on the Sturgis belt an primary drive good stuff man. I appreciate your knowledge man ,Big ol dirty thumbs up man ride safe stay dry.
Ur a great guy passing on solid info don’t be so hard on ur self. Keep up the great work.
I have an '01 Sporty. I do all the work on the bike. Got a HD shop manual and a Mikuni manual for the carb. Fun to do it all, even if it takes me some time. Indie shop close to me would work on if I need it.
I find it funny that the XL, with its smaller displacement, sounds better and beefier than the big twins. Thats coming from a guy who had an 06 XL and now an 03 TC88. Hearing your bike in this vid reminded me of that. It took a set of aftermarket cams on the TC to get close to what my stock XL sounded like.
I'm pretty sure that '80 Wideglides had a belt drive primary as well.
Although the Sturgis and Wideglide were introduced at the same time, the Wideglide had no belts in the driveline.
I don't foul harley completely for not working on the older gen bikes. That creates opportunity for small business owners and that's slowly fading away in the market place. Thanks for having a fair and impartial opinion especially since you work for HD.
What you said makes sense.
It is also an opportunity for those with the skills to open a shop the works on older bikes.
I just want say this... The roads you ride and live near, are pretty kick ass. I live and ride in Phoenix, NOTHING like your location. I'm getting tired of all the cages, Africa type heat and stop lights every quarter mile. Keep up the good work John, I watch all your videos.
~Ride Fast, Take Chances!
Sounds like Florida, haha
But it's a Dry Heat here, like a blowtorch! lol
110 in San Diego the other day! WTF!?!?!?!
Tom Lazzara you should check out northern california your pretty close its a six to eight hour ride from Phoenix but beautiful up here i live just east of Yosemite.
I live in Humboldt County, its a 12+ hour drive to LA. (Not a short hop to escape Arizona heat.) Then again, I consider SF to be Central Ca.since its 5 hours South of me. We do have some epic roads, the 36 (construction right now) the 299, 199, etc...
Not that it would be any cooler but Tuscon has some nice roads and would be closer. good winter time run anyway.
Integrity... good stuff man. Thanks for being such a solid resource.
That's interesting. So, if there's a general aversion to the dealerships working on older bikes would you be able to do that on your own time or would that be considered a conflict? You sounded like you were interested in working on older bikes so learn-as-you-go at $40 an hour (and no split with the dealership) might be a good option.
Makes sense-if the dealer's not willing/able to work on older machines,I can't see how it'd be a conflict if one of their techs wants to work on 'em on his/her own time,away from the dealership.
The only conflict is some customers are not honest and will say a harley tech worked on it now you owe me . Once again the liability of parts obsolete problem. Kinda like a 1982 tour glide try finding that rear sprocket. 285.99
I've got a 1991 XLH883, I do most of my own work, but my dealer is more than happy to do the heavy stuff. Yes, some factory parts are obsolete, but perfectly good aftermarket parts are there. It's all up to the dealers attitude, and the availability of techs!
Nice video John, fyi the "Willie G Special" Shovelhead had a factory belt drive primary and secondary.
That's what I hear. Never even heard of it. I need to step up my history game!
It's okay, at least you acknowledge the fact that you need to learn more about the history of the motor company. Most are clueless and can give a damn .
Too bad they act that way. Part of why I enjoy this job is because there’s always more knowledge to soak up. Do any other models come dual belt drive?
It makes a lot of sense. My dad took his 73 Honda 350 Four to the Honda shop to get his carbs fixed and they had no idea what they were looking at. So he payed 200 for a 3 day garage and was fn pissed!
I totally see your point of view and I wish we all could do that across the automotive industry unfortunately they believe that the buck stops at the dealership level and most techs are trained in models that are less then 5-8 years old most of the old timers have retired or moved on so we are left to muddle through it and in turn make the dealership look incompetent.
Like always love your videos and great info. Hey don’t worry about the miss info we can’t always be right!
Appreciate the honest views of a Harley tech...thanks...now I get it.
John, what year did you start at MMI and we’re you riding a blacked out street glide? I bent between 2016 and 2019. I swear you started MTP once I was in tech 5 or 7 in Harley at the time.
Not to be weird, I’m just curious.
It makes sense to mainly deal with current/recent line-up. No sense in having older bikes taking up time from the current (read still paying customers) lineup. Of course, this depends upon the 'density' of old vs new bikes in one's area.
When some of the local Ford dealers still had 'owners' rather than 'investment groups', they used to let some techs work on older cars on 'off' hours. It was another revenue stream for the dealership's parts/accessory dept, and better money for the techs. I don't know what the billing arrangement was, but it was better rate percentage for the techs because they were pulling these customers in. (I think they may have 'rented' a bay, kinda like barbershops.) Only the better techs were allowed to take (or ever even took) advantage of using the facilities. I don't think they do this anymore, either.
Yep your right man I have a softail in Australia ( live in the uk too) my mate looks after it for me keep them wheels moving but he was very shocked to here the sales man at the local HD shop say "nap sorry man it's to old we don't do old bikes" when I recently went to the HD shop to see the owner a friend of mine he confirmed they are way too busy in the summer when my harley was trying to be booked in as HD give his shop times to keep to on sales pdi's and servicing on new models. I do understand and there is another shop that does chops and classic bikes so it goes there now. Awesome channel man cheers. Paperboy \m/
You know you're getting old when HD dealerships won't work on a bike you bought new because of its age!
haha
ScampAitken so true
Yep. And I bought my 1st Harley late in life! But, I'm still scraping the pegs on that old 92 Dyna!
👍😎🤣🤣
Good vid. I’m a dealer tech. Dead on. My only beef with HD is cost of the bikes. They make enough profit on bikes new that they could lower their price, take up more market share and be higher volume.
I can definitely relate, my friend. Ive been a mechanic for 35 years if you count military. Folks who dont know seem to assume that just because of that, you should know everything. If I get a job on something that Ive never trained in, never seen, can I figure it out? Absolutely! Will it be efficient or cost effective? Probably not. With more serious stuff on my bike, I bring it to a shop. Why? Im not a motorcycle mechanic. A good tech can spot things that I would probably miss, do it better and do it more efficiently. Love your videos BTW
Dude!! You Rock.
Move to Canada!!!!
I'm Here
Its Awesome
I ride my bike all year round!
Bicycle that is lol >;-)
Learning lots from you, Thanks for posting!
Rock N Roll
John would the older model bikes
'electrical and Chassis"' not be covered in the service manual for the model year/bike?
I think it was around 2001 that they started separating electrical and service.
Don’t dealerships need EVO trained techs for the Sportster line? Or were you referring to another line like the EVO equipped FXRs?
My Harley’s have never seen a HD dealership. I’ve been close with a local independent bike shop for years. And they’ve maintained my 10’ glide and my shovel bobber for 1/4 of the Harley price with no problems. I ride my bikes hard and almost daily. Have had electrical problems, charging problems, tires, brakes, clutch adjustments, got rear ended on my glide and did all insurance work through independent shop. I couldn’t afford HD dealer prices for either bike. I have little doubt HD tech’s are skilled, but the same skill level vs price is just better else ware, in my experience.
I'll weigh in here as a new owner of a new 1998 evo springer. The bike was in great shape but sat for a while. I got her running, but wanted the bike gone through by a pro and decided to have the manifold seals and carb done by a pro, I'm an amature hack. Plus, i wanted the springer front end brought up to factor specs and a full safety check of the bike.
I called around was turned down left and right, except for my local dealer. They have a crusty old greasy guy they keep in the back.. he had the bike done in no time and the bike was perfect. Tuned better than I could ever do. Yes labor is 115 an hour, but the bike was done with a level a trust. I'll use them again as I am planning to ride the heck out of this bike.
If I buy an aftermarket @ir cleaner, do I need to buy a computer to tune it, or do techs have one to tune my bike? I have an ‘08 xl1200c...
Oh yeah I believe your accurate , your my go to HARLEY guy on TH-cam ever since I found you on here and I thumbs up all your vids unlike a lot of people , RIDE ON BROTHER HARLEY DAVIDSON FOR LIFE I ride a 04 xl1200r and I love it 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
It’s hard to find those who ride 04 anymore and it seems endless the amount of times I’ve been to a dealer tech! xl 1200c
Saw the oldest "new" bike today. Old timer up here in New Brunswick Canada from Oklahoma on a 2017 Street Glide. 78K miles on it. Told us he got it on a Friday, the following Monday he was back in for the 1000 mile service.
Damn!
I work at a independent shop. I specialize in Harley Davidson and everything that no one in the shop wants to work on. We are a dealer that sells hundreds of used motorcycles. We will turn a way some motorcycles if they are in really bad shape or if they are super old. With old bike some of the time they weren’t taken care of and need a lot of love to get back on the road.
I heartedly agree with Michael Redcrow. I have a 17 yo 1600cc Roadstar (don't hate me 🔫💣) and the Dealership won't service the bike for the same reasons you and Mike mention.
Fortunately, I have a mechanic with his own shop and he loves my bike as much as I do.
Right now, the bike sits in my living room/shop, on a lift while I'm restoring it. ...I'll be buying a Harley this coming August to ride while I work on my current bike.
2 bikes is better than 1! Glad you have a solid mechanic for it, too!
What's your opinion on the 2011 Street glide with the 98 motor I'm looking at one with only 5,000 mi on it for $13,000 and do you think that this is a good option or should I be looking for something a little bit newer thanks for your time and consideration
seeing ur sportster makes me want to get another 1. mine was an 04 1200. i currently ride a 00 heritage.
Are your front directionals crooked? Sorry ocd lol