Douglas Murray and Peter Boghossian - Woke ideology, the university, and grievance
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 มิ.ย. 2022
- Douglas Murray and Peter Boghossian discuss the origins of Woke ideology, how it came from the university system and they touch on intersectionality and grievance.
This conversation will be released in five parts and then I'll release the whole thing as one long video.
This was filmed for my series, The Woke Reformation, and if you appreciate my work, please consider supporting me on Locals, as that allows me to keep making more content. Plus, you'll get exclusive content on Locals page like long form interviews, tips on how to deal with Woke ideology and more.
travisbrown.locals.com
Find more about Peter Boghossian through his website - peterboghossian.com
Find more about Douglas Murray through his website - douglasmurray.net - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Don't forget to subscribe! And if you like my work, please consider supporting me on Locals where you'll get more content - travisbrown.locals.com
This was profoundly stated: "To teach somebody that they should feel grievance, is in my view a quite wicked thing to do. Because we all in our lives could have grievances. Most of us do have some grievances, and it's not always been seen as a good thing to have, it thwarts you in lots of ways. So to be encouraged to have grievances is to set somebody off from the beginning of their life in a direction which is highly likely to lead to unhappiness."
Basically makes you live life with victim mentality.
Or to put it simply, if you externalise problems you give up your ability to feasibly do anything about them. And you are doomed to live with it forever.
@@dwindeyer It also encourages people to focus on their problems. Happiness lies in exactly the opposite direction.
That’s what sjw’s thrive on. They’re the worst part of the victim mentality. Without victims they have no purpose. What does a warrior do when there’s no war to fight? Well create one of course
I was born in late 1947 and because I was a girl, I had very few rights. I had an older sister who was very bossy so, i had three parents, not two. I also had three brothers below me and they had more rights than me because they were boys. I came out just fine because I was smart enough to know it was all untrue and eventually, I would break out and have a life of my own. I am a middle child who saw life as unfair all around me but, knew it was temporary. I hold no resentments, or any anger or hatred. I just grew up.
You were a child and your parents decided what 'rights' you had, not society. When you were an independent adult, what rights did you not have that men had? I can only think of one - fair pay and that was resolved in the early 1970s.
Good for you, most people don't hold resentment, however that doesn't mean that we can't be critical of bad social norms and structures. There's lots to improve.
@June Robertson,
Thank you.
Profoundly and beautiful said.
Words of wisdom. 🙏
You had more rights then your brothers.
They could be conscripted into the military, to be used and abused as needed.
.... and though there is currently no draft , the law still stands.
Agree, June, but unfortunately you've irritated the ubiquitous MRAs.
"They don't know when the over correction doesn't end up swinging the other way" . Those words are the exact words describing the path that we are on and what it will lead us to. Douglas Murray is brilliant.
That whole segment by Murray was aimed at the exact center of the woke impulse. Fantastic analysts.
"to encourage people to be more at odds with the world then we already are.. is a fundamental moral error" - perfectly said and perfect to end on.
Exactly, and it's a feature of Wokeism, not a bug.
The funny thing about the Right is, they think that endlessly stating and restating the problem is the solution to that problem.
Douglas Murray has spent years telling us all what we are doing wrong but he is yet to erect a single sign-post directing us toward a solution. And how can he? How can Douglas Murray save the West whilst having one foot in the Globalist camp? You know that Murray _still_ blames Bin Laden for 9/11, don't you? And this despite the fact that the reason that Bin Laden was _not_ indicted over 9/11 was, the FBI had _no_ evidence to link him to the crime.
Until we start dragging our traitorous cops and politicians out from behind their desks and hanging them from lamp-posts, treason will continue to be the most lucrative game in politics. Why is it that Murray lacks the courage to say _this?_
I’m glad Douglas Murray has moved to America. He is one of the most brilliant political minds of today, along side Victor Hansen and Thomas Sowell.
But we 🇬🇧 shall miss him! However, I give thanks to our sophistication in communication technology so we don’t miss a trick. As for the dialogue presented, I suspect it’s one I’m going to watch more than once.
Has he moved?
Your gain is our loss! 🇬🇧😿
@@benjaminandersson2572 Yeah to NYC oddly!
Ha but he will always be a brit
" To encourage people to be more at odds with people, than we already are." Just, incisive analysis of grievance culture in the contemporary environment. This epitomises contemporary cultural thinking. Brilliant, thankyou.
Two of my favourite men. How to speak and how to listen.
Outstanding discussion, by two great thinkers. Awesome.
Our Douglas always speaks wonderful, clear and sense. Love from the UK.
He's our Douglas now ;)
It would appear he is the “new” Christopher Hitchens - good luck to these new thinkers talking simple common sense which the left detests as they lose control.
These men are such a breath of fresh air.
These conversations give me a sense of security. Like no matter what, having people like this around will safeguard us from falling completely into an Orwellian society.
Brillliant conversation. Two great minds enunciating clearly the problems with the standpoint of the great unwashed.
DAMN, what an incredibly rewarding discussion!
Two great minds.
Great video. I could listen to these 2 all day long. They're both incredibly important voices during this cultural revolution. Then I glanced at the rest of your content, and went ahead and subscribed.
I was hoping this discussion went much longer
Pete's doing great work
2 of the greats 👍
Excited to see it and looking forward to watch it all together and perhaps talk about it🙋🏻♀️🍁❤️
Hey it’s Fanny! Haven’t seen you in a while.
Douglas Murray is amazing ❤️ so glad he’s courageous enough to speak against the crazies & even write a book about the ideology that is the far left
Great conversation... Must needed...
brilliant, especially on intersectionality
Bravo! As usual! Love these guys. 🙂
can always count on the fact that if its THESE 2 having a conversation? IM IN, EVERYTIME. THANK YOU!!!
Excellent and precisely insightful conversation
Furture generations will be standing on the shoulders of giants. These men will be two of them.
Have only listened to Murray on several different occasions over the last couple of years and only in short clips such as this. Until about three minutes into this video when he began saying it, I had no idea that he was gay.
"I am a human being. Nothing human can be alien to me.” Terence.
Mr Murry, I love your succinct summing up of identitarian thinking: it's based on a "you must understand me; you will never understand me" conundrum. Perfect. How is it that identitarians don't see this?
That’s exactly my point. If I can’t understand your ‘struggle’, then why would or even should l TRY to understand it?
I am an absolute minority of one. No one is exactly as I am and therefore I am in an absolute minority of one. I am the most oppressed there can possibly be- as is everyone else!
Murray is a badass he's like a super villain antihero who has decided to use his powers to fight for justice. love this dude
Haha. For sure.
just brilliant
First class and important discussion
YES and thanks to you both
5:05 - almost looks like Douglas blew his own mind. Fantastic hearing these two converse. Great work. Subscribed. Looking forward to watching the whole series
Great video! I really loved it, I agree 100%
Great!
This is unreal! The crazy things people are saying online comes from gender studies? People are teaching this in academia?! So scary
Of course - all of this stems from academia. The Frankfurt School and the critical theorists of the 30s-60s. This stuff hasn’t infiltrated academia, it started there.
Too bad we never got to see Douglas in conversation with Christopher Hitchens. That would have been really interesting to witness.
We need Hitch now more than we ever did, if I could somehow reanimate any human who died in the last 100 years to live for another 4 score and 10 it would probably be him. Well, maybe Einstein or Tesla ought to be my choice.... but Hitch would definitely be more fun.
Both NeoCons unfortunately
@@chriscoffee9070 he was a dreadful NeoCon and backed the Iraq war/ bloodbath.
Interesting discussion....
Douglas Murray is the best version of Roger Scruton that we could hope for!
He's a NeoCon and backed the Iraq war.
7:00 what ultimately happens is that you'd divide people into more and more specific categories and reach the logical conclusion that every individual person is a category unto their own. So, a conservative traditional worldview. Welcome new Right-wingers.
Sadly their logic doesn't go in that direction. The collectivism is built in as they are not considering individuals as independent members of a an abstract group. They seem to consider the group in some sense more real and the individual as an avatar determined by their group.
@@KingRyanoles Yes I agree because they don't want to handle the truth, which is that 'intersectionality' ultimate matures into.. well Trump and whatever they despise. So I agree with Douglas and what you're saying - it can only be allowed to go to a retarded place that breeds contempt and somehow fuels in-group out-group hatred collectivist hate-causes.
If only they'd just let it follow through to that logical conclusion. Maybe a handful will come visit us via that route.
@@KingRyanoles True. They could divide and divide until the smallest, most marginalized "community" was only three people; but they couldn't understand that ultimately, we're all individuals.
Like that episode "I, Borg" on Star Trek TNG -- they can't fathom NOT thinking as a hive, it's terrifying.
Edit: grammar, sorry
Here they hit on a thought I've been having - crying out against racism where very little exists, for example, may result not in honest recalibration of the discussion at some point in the future, but a backlash from people who have been convinced by the noise that their racism is actually justified, and they then become the leading people in the blowback, creating a much larger problem than the largely imaginary problems which were the subject of your grievances in the first place.
Totally agree… it’s irresponsible and negative to perpetuate grievances in all people for the experiences of some. That chip on the shoulder is a hard one for kids to lose and is very different to teaching kids safety
So many things to quote - too good
Special thanks to the editor for the geek shot of the camera rig at 0:21. I always want to see what someone is shooting with. 😉
...they WILL know when the overcorrection occurs
Peter at 7:15. Boy do I agree! It really annoys me when people attribute psuedo moral superiority to their own opinion, and attribute wrongness to everyone else. ie, you don't just have a different opinion... you're bad, you're wrong.
Drives me nuts.
Brilliant 👏
“The smallest minority is the individual” -Ayn Rand
Douglas Murray is truley one of the great minds of our time. What he talks about the revenge complex out there against whites is very real. I’ve seen it and been on the receiving end of it being white. Do you think it’s wise to intentionally discriminate against people? If you do that it’s only a matter of time we do it back to you.
Nothing like fighting racism with racism
09:26 Like woke ideology, Christianity asks people to examine themselves and repent of bad behavior. However, the two ideologies differ in this respect. In Christianity, you can become baptized and your sins are removed. In woke ideology, you remain a sis white male and no amount of radicalization can take your privilege away.
If Christianity operated like this, a person could convert to Christianity but remain a pagan for their entire lives. Instead, Christians are transformed in the eyes of the religion, and distinctions between people are broken down rather than reinforced. . . "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus"
Correcting injustice by way of injustice is nothing more than an eye for an eye.
Freudian slip Douglas "I can't wrap my hand around it."
I want to know if a mixed race person, who has a brown parent and white parent, is 50% guilty for the oppression of brown people.
Should they feel guilt and anger at themselves in equal measure.
My husband has ancestors that were slaves and slave owners. This would be true of many people whose ancestors lived in the US during slavery. Does he feel guilty or oppression? I think for the Left, it would come down to what color his skin is regardless of the facts.
@@gwenj5419 exactly it all comes down to whether you are "white passing" or if the world sees you as a "person of colour"... As of your skin colour tells your story as an individual
What is the difference between “lived experience” and “experience”? It’s a nonsensical term. All experience is “lived” what else would it be?
Oh it's my lived experience that matters not yours say the wokerati
When they say “lived” they’re using it as a short hand for “experience I lived”. It’s another intentionally convoluted term designed to confuse people.
@@snorgonofborkkad
Neither makes any sense. Experience is by definition.. experienced!
What they actually mean is “my truth”, the postmodernist idea that opinion overrides facts.
There’s no actual disproportionate police killing of black people, but in my “lived experience” there is.
Obesity is unhealthy but in my “lived experience” fat people can be just as healthy as anyone else.
etc.
3:30 - It removes your intellectual and emotional agency. You can't feel like that because of X. To even imagine understanding it is the cultural appropriation of privileged hubris.
This leads to emotional edicts from scientific authorities. "Doing the Work" becomes your reason for being. This is a pretty frightening philosophical situation we've gotten ourselves into.
Binary thinking that rejects polarity creates all kinds of heat but delivers no light.
What was once before, can be again.
Intersectionality: job security for grievance hucksters, leftists and professional victims.
At 2:08 he describes a situation I've heard referred to as "being put in a round room and told to pee in the corner." It's a rude idiom, but it works.
The notion that "we can't understand each other because of our different lived experiences, yet we are suppose to try understand others". Is the perfect way to create radicals on both sides .
One political side is using that tactics to create more radicals , there will be point where the other side will also adopt more radical views . That will lead to disharmony & confrontation in society.
I don't care about race, sexual orientation, or religion, the only people I have a problem with are those that seek to do me harm!!!!!!
Given that Im not black, or stupid, can I not join a conversation about race, and IQ?
You can not have favourites without first having classifications to put those favourites within.
aka Prejudice.
Free
And I'm Super Straight
Thats my Pro noun
I’m pinching myself in seeing this stuff travel from smaller corners of the internet to the corners of my dinner table. When it reaches my dinner table, I feel deeply threatened
this video might apply to the essence of religion as well, if it is true that certain religions are "better" than others, because ones' own religion is created from a source that is "more true" than others
comment for the algorithm
I like the point about all the siloed groups not being able to understand each other due to “lived experience”. The comment about no men can understand women, brings up the problem of how a trans person ever understand what it means to be what ever identity that they think that they are. Can they really only understand those people who have the same dysphoria that they have?
So, how can a trans woman really be considered a woman as they don’t have that “experience”?
They attempt to reverse engineer that argument by claiming that “I was never a man! I’ve always been a woman. My penis is a woman’s penis”.
Douglas is a head above the other guy in intellect!
No, he's not. Don't be silly.
Is it hard for you to follow?
Mr Murray is indeed one of the best thinkers in the world. However, Mr Boghossian is no beggar in the academic world. He is vastly published. A great mind as well, with his own strengths.
@@wiseonwords that's your argument ?
@@dejavu666wampas9 it just shows that the academic world has come down a
lot judging by his vocabulary.
Although I agree in general about pushing geivenace upon others to make the world a far more miserable place;
the problem of course, is that >>>>'genuine'
In Critical Theory, the depth of the contradiction goes further than just, "You must understand me though you can never understand me." It also says, "I understand you enough to know you do not understand me." Every time anyone says, "But you're just a cis white man", they proport to know what it means to be that. Does understanding only go up the oppression hierarchy? ...because that's not uselessly convoluted at all. Make up your minds, critical theorists: Are we all talking past each other or not?
"Equity" = Revenge.
You say that their over correction 'could' make things go very, very wrong.
I think 'could' should probably be removed from that.
But did it occur to you that that might be the intent of those that are behind it pulling the strings ?
I think he is alluding to a possible violent, unwanted backlash, civil unrest etc. What the woke end game is about is very unclear. It could be that upheaval and destruction is it.
@@nielspedersen2579 Given the proven nature of political activists in the US to try and recreate Dantes 'mostly peaceful' Inferno......
Equity doesn't even work within an individual's life. I am far better off in my 40's than I was as a teenager in many ways but far worse off in many others.
What's going on with Boghossian's foot?
Dozens of types of dogs, cats, birds, etc. and each are distinctly different. However; the diversity in humans that once existed, a dozen different types of humans didn't survive. Humans intermingled so one human species didn't kill off another, but survival of the fittest, the most adaptable ended up being the only surviving species that lives in every environment of the other species.
Today these academic and political figures are stating that their exist distinctly different humans. There are differences in individuals to other individuals but there is not genetic defined differences that build up or stay distinct. The intermingling has never stopped and will never stop or has never be stopped by any cabal of a group of individual to any extent to actually cause a noticeable change.
Opression variables! Silent seminars.
Follow the golden rule. I do know it's dangerous to think wisdom comes from Humans. How do you know what you know? Where does that wisdom come from?
These gentlemen are having a intellectual discussion of what is going on in our society and how it has become siloed in opinion/thought. Of course here comes YT analytics to throw a politically siloed advert due to the key words within the title and subsequently furthering the division... ugh.
Remember ‘empathy’? It used to mean something, can’t quite remember what. 🤔
It’s astonishing that these gentlemen can spend hours discussing such important issues without ever making a reference to core concepts from anthropology and sociology, and without ever citing field studies, findings and conclusions developed from leading Anthropology and Sociology thinkers of the 20th century
They referenced - White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack...not sure it that's from a leading thinker...
#1A #2A 🇺🇲🇺🇸
These ideologies become mind viruses.
not to mention genitals ...
There are experiential things we cannot know. For example, until you've repaired drywall, you simply cannot know what it is like. You can read about it, and talk to people, but you lack the experience. And even if you know what something is like for you, such as seeing the color orange, you cannot know what it is like for anyone else. Being gay, I likely will never know what it is like to be attracted to female anatomy. I can know about attraction generally, but not to that particular category. We must be honest.
Who is the real you? Is it the you who thinks? Or is it the you who feels? These are very different people, and they know different things, and different aspects of those things.
Sorry, your point? I always find the argument about “experiencing” color less than persuasive in that the color orange not only has an objective definition (wave length). Also, within the central areas of the wavelengths we describe as orange, most people agree that it is the same color. Even those people who would culturally classify orange as a shade of red.
On the surface Woke ideology appears very caring. But in truth it’s a sinister one-mind hive leaving a trail of human misery.
Woke ideology is not asking for understanding of what it's like to be black or gay or any other so-called marginalized group. Rather, it demands an adherence to a set of prescribed notions that are predefined in such a way that understanding them is impossible except in terms of that which has been predefined.
That which has been predefined can only originate from certain lived experiences but only those lived experiences that fall within the correct set of prescribed notions, namely, well tested notions that have been vetted through "…. Studies" journals and disseminated through a recognized cadre who are adept in the woke literature. Those experiences that fall outside these prescriptions are corrupted - pathologies that require remediation - and must be abandoned before adoption into the woke belief system is possible.
So, if you are black and your lived experiences do not fall within the official set of prescribed notions, your "understanding" of what it's like to be black is a "misunderstanding" and, therefore, cannot be part of the predefinitions that make up the true "understanding" of what it means to be black. You are not a true black person because you hold onto a wrong set of beliefs and experiences.
We keep thinking that woke ideology is something new. It's not. It's one of the oldest ways of thinking ever known to our species. It's called religion.
12:50 - Woke Iago.
“You must understand me. You’ll never understand me”. Brings to mind Borderline Personality Disorder. On a mass scale. Absolutely poisonous to all sides. Personally and societally.
He steelmans that argument but I don't attribute any sort of lofty goals to them. I believe their end goal is the oppression...not for any other result, but just the oppression itself.
I don’t mean to be reductive, because this is a rich and engaging conversation and I’m learning from it. But what the equity agenda (grossly overcompensating) and standpoint epistemology and more have in common are simply elaborate claims to power. Because other irrelevant people - people unknown to us, unrelated to us, alive generations ago with whom we only share a similar complexion and perhaps some other phenotypes, I must be handed power and resources at your expense - now - based merely on skin color. That’s ridiculous. Standpoint epistemology’s main purpose is again to simply demand greater standing, status/expertise, and deference, based solely on skin color (plus whatever of the other two or three very selectively, self-servingly chosen characteristics one might combine). I know everything you know, plus the extra levels of supposed intersectional knowledge and wisdom. So I automatically get to overrule you and you have no standing to challenge my claims even with evidence and logic, because i am better positioned by my experience to put your arguments or evidence in a supposedly greater context and analyze what it’s really about. These are all basically claims to racial superiority or a new caste system. I deserve more, I know more. It’s about putting people in a subordinate position based on factors they didn’t choose and can’t control, while telling the people who would abuse them and take from them on that basis that they are noble victims who are deserving of everything they can take. The people they would take from and abuse deserve this collective, intergenerational punishment, based only on a phenotypic resemblance to totally unrelated people - one continent, one civilization unique in human history whom we’re supposed to find uniquely but collectively culpable, one group for whom a skin color was not only a common factor but supposedly the most important factor in their lives, regardless of class or any other variable. Then, to add further insult to injury, one’s ability to even grasp or describe what’s happening is ridiculed, because one supposedly possesses the very lowest sense making capacity of any group, due to one’s lowest intersectional status and the profound epistemic limits that implies. It’s bullying. And one is supposed to be cowed into apologizing to the bully for even having to go to this trouble. That’s your fault, too.
I'm as terrified as I am impressed that this social engineering project was so successful. The amount of collective psychosis due to generations of conditioning, deracination and historical revisionism has taken its toll.
The level of demoralization is profound.
@@deathbycognitivedissonance5036 I think so, too: this relentless bombardment of ridiculousness assertions and patently unfair aspersions and demands is meant in part to demoralize people into resignation and passivity. One alternative is to use one’s wits to push back against these ideas, hard, with friends, and use both rigor and ridicule to expose them for the ugly, baseless ideas they are. But to do so is to risk losing even some formerly close, longtime friends. I have. It’s rough. I’ve thought to myself: twenty-three years and done for good - over this?! But giving in to cant and nodding along to ugly untruths garbed in self-congratulatory bromides and catch phrases feels even worse.
If we should never “turn the corner” of our current crisis , at least we will have a plethora of authors to send us to sleep at night …..
and what if someone is a black transman gay ?
Sounds like you found your mate!
That's a clear winner. Especially if he also fat and disabled.
Then she is a lesbian
It's ultimately poverty, much of it ignored (as Murray does here) and indeed maintained and manufactured by corrupt government, as in the U.S. and increasingly Britain, which underlies the woke emphasis on difference. I'm 100% on board with their arguments here, yet it can't be overemphasized that much of this has to do with the suffering caused by deep material inequality. It's hard to ask civility of people sunk in the terribly uncivilized experiences poverty produces for so many lives in our so-called advanced economies.
Hmm, while I completely agree about vast wealth inequality being perhaps the most serious problem facing the entire world, never mind the West; the people causing all this social upheaval through the intersectionality nonsense tend to be affluent individuals and the large corporations who take their directives as givens, I fail to see how poverty is making this particular problem worse. Normal working class low-income folk in my experience have no time for any of these issues, both in the sense that they give them no intellectual credence, and also that they are far too busy keeping their financial heads above water to be concerned whether Sally the bearded lady's rights to parade his male genitalia around a ladies changing room are being infringed or whether their skin colour automatically makes them a bigot.
@@chriscoffee9070 I think the social upheaval is driven by ppl of varied socio-economic power levels, with varied aims, but poverty and glaring income inequality are fundamental to it. Corporations and political players use 'kindness' campaigns to distract and divide a largely underpaid populace, while mollifying some of their own autogynephile employees in positions of relative power in the organization who are coming out as trans, ppl who often have ASD, OCD and/or anxiety/depression as well as Cluster-B personality disorders (see James/Jennifer Pritzker).
I agree with you that much of the upheaval is driven by young ppl from more affluent or middle class families, yet their actions are often taken both together with and on behalf of their poorer compatriots at university, to whom they're especially sympathetic if they're 'of colour' or not hetero. In particular, middle class girls and young women steeped in social media wish to be and seem both inclusive and active in social justice fights for fairness, meanwhile not knowing the actual statistics of male violence and misogynistic behaviour, therefore not understanding *why* it's so important that female-only spaces, services, teams, and awards stay that way.
In the U.S. especially, so many students graduate with lovely liberal arts degrees, enormous debt burdens, and very often only very low-salary jobs available to them. It's extremely stressful, and it becomes easy to scapegoat individuals by race and sex, when, really, much of human enterprise is complicit in maintaining and increasing wealth divides.
By all means, students must be reintroduced to essential values and practices like not judging books by covers, treating others as you'd like to be treated, patience, and true critical thinking, but those with comfortable incomes and professions, as I'd warrant both D and P have, shouldn't underestimate how much systemic income inequality undergirds such unhappy behaviour.
Obviously it is good that discussions like this exist at all. But somehow I would be surprised if any of the woke will listen to this. And even if they would listen, would they consider changing their minds? I have my doubts.
The main way to deal with those poor scumbags is simply to ignore their claims, as much as we can. And disagree if we cannot ignore.
Edgar- Sadly true.
This has nothing to do with changing the mind of Woke fundamentalists.
Great to see these people being demolished...you're time is OVER!😂😂😂😂😂😂
Their intention is to poison the dialogos