Benefits of a Hard and Short Brake Pedal - The 2-stage System of the Hydraulic Invicta™ Pedals
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ค. 2024
- In this video, Asetek founder and CEO André Eriksen show why the patent-pending brake system of the Invicta™ pedals is like nothing else on the sim racing market.
Our philosophy is to provide you with sim racing hardware that simulates real-life racing as closely as possible. A unique feature of the hydraulic Invicta™ pedals is that the brake pedal is ROCK hard.
Think about it: If a soft brake pedal helped you drive faster, all race cars from Formula to GT would have it. But they don’t. Why? Because a hard brake pedal will allow you to brake later.
The motorsport engineering behind this is a ‘2-stage system’ when braking: the ‘soft’ stage and the ‘hard’ stage. Combined with a short travel, this can help you save the milliseconds needed to take pole position when sim racing.
Time codes:
00:00 Teaser intro
00:39 Introduction
01:35 How a hydraulic brake system works in a real car
04:48 The 2-stage brake system of the Invicta™ pedals
06:51 Comparing to 1-stage systems
9:11 The difference it makes: trail braking and muscle memory
10:09 The benefits of a short brake travel
11:12 Comparing performance using data
13:05 Summary
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Never underestimate the benefits of hard and short
Thats what I tell people all the time
@@Willeexd1337😮😢😅😅😅 14:01
Super explanation, this makes your better than others brands of simracing. Your ambition is to stick to the reality, it is super satisfied, this is exactly what simracers are looking for…
me as amateur irl driver and simdriver this never came to my mind . your explanation makes everything clear now . well done and thx guys 👌
I just did put in the pre-order .. so looking forward 🏎
@@enner-racing That's great to hear. Thank you for pre-ordering! We can't wait to ship Invicta to you :D
8:30 erm, you can literally exchange the 2nd rubber with a solid component and have a hard stage...
This is such a great detail explanation of their pedals. Thank you for uploading.
One part I didn't hear them bring up that makes a 2 stage pedal so good for sim is being able to setup the first stage for a specific percentage of braking. So it's almost as easy as pressing a button to reach the perfect amount of pressure. It's major!
Thank you.
Just ordered these. Great explanation from a clever man. Can't wait.
I learn alot from your videos. keep it up! I am excited to get my set!
Just purchased and installed few days ago this pedal set with the long travel brake kit as I'm mostly driving street and GT cars and I'm really very happy!
Very impressive, thanks!
Very good explanation! Everything makes sense now in regards of the design phylosophy and difference from the competition. I think I’m sold :)))
I love the pedals only thing putting me off is the plate,I’d like a version of separate pedals with the optional plate so I can place the pedals where I want but yer the concept is next stage.I can’t wait to see future sim equipment from you guys.
looking forward to more sim equipment from you guys
Thank you! 🙌🙏
I was just in a preparation to get use to harder elastomers.. just changing them with the hardest elastomers now as I dont have the hydrolics currently. Thanks for this very serious explanation which is generally missing in simracer youtubers.
No problem. We're happy to share our insights! :)
I just watched 5 or 6 real racing car pedal cams (GT3, supercar and F1) and 100% of them had very long brake travels. I would love to see if short brake travel is a real thing or just a sim racing marketing strategy due to physical limitation of pedal built.
Absolutely a myth.
Just pre-ordered the pedals, can't wait....
That's awesome to hear! Thank you for pre-ordering! 🙏💪
My order is in. Looking forward to them.
Thank you for ordering! 💪🔥
12:35 rip the green elostomer on the left
This video took away my last line of defence. Pedals are preordered! :-)
We regret nothing ;) Thank you for pre-ordering! :D
I ordered this pedals and cant wait to get it. I'm a old school driver and dribe with my old brd speed 7.
We love to hear that. Thank you for pre-ordering! 💪
I'm not really concerned about my race times, I am concerned with the pedal feeling real. I have my pre order in, I hope the pedals do not disappoint.
this was way easier to understand than using your competitions "configurator" tool
Ok ok.. you got me at “two stage braking” !!!! Order placed 😎
Thank you for your order! We can't wait to ship it to you :D
Hi, very good video of your product. I pre-orderd your 3 pedals for my rFactor2 sim, I want to see the diff from my fanatec v3. Can not wait to test this on my rig, shure the pedals are important for simracers cause you dont have the forces nd the feling of the breakforce and when the wheels lock! Also the trail breaking, want to know if it's better to feel the breaking in the corners and the wheel-lock.
Amazing video! Much respect! These are my new favourite wish list item. I’m changing the rubbers on my pedal set to make them much stiffer, like the Asatek pedals. Not 100% but as close as possible.
These pedals and the explanation is simply amazing. When I saw the review from @Davecam I was a little bit taken aback by the small travel, but thoroughly impressed with his review and explanation of it. I already made my mind up that I want these over even Heusinkvelds (and my respect for them remain immenselely high)....this video ensured it even more.
I love the explanation and the clarity, although it pains me to realize I spent more money in a hydraulic pedal instead of a good load cell unit.
Excited for the delivery of my Invicta set!
Thank you for pre-ordering! We're excited to start shipping soon. Exciting times! :D
@@AsetekSimSports indeed! I can't wait to see how it stacks up vs my BJ hydraulics.
I just pre-ordered them. The way how you explained the mechanics and your enthusiasm was for me a no brainer to order them. It's gonna be a huge difference (I hope :-) comparing to my Logitech pedals. Most important my wife approved :-P Can't wait whats in store for the future.
Thank you for pre-ordering! We believe you are in for QUITE an upgrade! :D
Will be my next pedal set.
Great video. I never understood why Heusinkveld ships their pedals with those terrible soft elastomers.
The travel with those is way more than what is needed. I'll definitely try Invicta!
Thank you!
Thanks for the video. What's the serviceability of the 2 stage system?
You are welcome. There is no need for service.
Nice demonstration. I'll be sure to get mine!
Thank you! We love to hear that :D
Great stuff! Question: I know that the pedals cannot be moved closer to each other or farther apart, but can the pedal plates be moved close enough to heel-toe effectively?
Oh, YEEEAH: th-cam.com/video/DBWKhak3Qgk/w-d-xo.html
;)
Actually a really good explanation of the mechanics and respectful when comparing to the different solutions on market. I really do like your product and the way you have been communicating so far through reviewers and your own channel! My only wish for the future is to get gas and brake pedals separated so I could get more comfortable setup in sim as we don't have the limitation with space like in real world formula. Even if that option would cost more than combined set, I would still go for it for added comfort and flexibility.
Thank you! We're glad to hear enjoyed our explanation in this video :D
And we appreciate your feedback on the separated pedals. We believe in our current design but will always listen to reactions from the community :)
Great info, but should the brake force already be engaged during the soft stage? Or only during the second stage?
There is braking in both stages. But the really hard, no-flex braking is only in stage 2. That's what makes the difference in really sharp turns.
Now everything is more clear. I was just thinking how does it feel when it touches the alu spacer/ring, can you feel metal/metal contact or hydraulics masks that out ?
That's probably very subjective depending on the racer. We put a solution in front of the pedal arms to reduce the metal-to-metal noise and we think that makes a difference.
Reviews are coming from February 14th, so you'll probably have access to more opinions about it soon :)
Only thing that puts me off running a short and hard pedal is I've always found it harder to modulate braking force with a shorter throw. If I'm really having to put high forces into the pedal I'm either under or over braking which means I'm losing time either way
Sounds like you are using your ankle to brake. If you want to do like in a race car, your ankle should be locked and you use your leg. When releasing in to trailbraking all you have to do is "bend your toes backwards" and slowly retracting your leg.
If anyone knows how to slow, it's a dude who's middle name is Sloth! I'm sold on the Invictas.
What are you actually pushing against in the hard phase? The hydraulic fluid isn't compressing, so what's the difference between having the fluid and just having a hard metal stop?
Due to the pressure sensor in the hydraulics, you'll be able to control and gain a higher brake pressure without any travel. Just like a real race car.
Interested but there’s no shipping to Puerto Rico on your website
We are in the process of adding more destinations and resellers worldwide. Sorry that Puerto Rico is not on the list yet but we are working on what can be done :)
For example with the RealGear GTpro3 Gen 2 (or 1 ) you really get the same result by setting the elastomers hardness. There are 2 elastomers that you can fit and you can put on either spot a soft one and a hard one or 2 soft or 2 hard etc. Playing with combinations to go close as “real” as possible, you’ll get to put the first compressed elastomer to be a soft one and the second one a hard one. You get in that way a 2 stages effect where after 2cm of travel the brake is really rock solid and you press against it to get the second 30%-40% of brake power. So , again, I think your solution is brilliant but I also think there are valid alternatives on the market based on real Tilton pedals. And then there is that video where they show racecars pedals close-ups and you’ll see brake pedals with very long travel….
My office-chair-and-rope setup is unfortunately not compatible. I guess I've finally found a valid reason to move house! 😀
😅😅
two questions,
1- can you set or adjust down the pedal travel of the first/soft stage from 2cm to 1cm before it hit the hard stop second stage?
2- does the first/soft stage has any breaking input in the sim game or is it only when u compress the fluid in the second stage?
1. Technically, you can. Either by changing the elastomer inside the brake cylinder or by adjusting the preload.
2. There is input in the soft stage. However, you can calibrate that out of it if you want to.
I hope that helped :)
/Martin, Asetek SimSports
@@AsetekSimSports regarding point 2, what is the most realistic setting here?
Would the R8 start to decelerate significantly during its "soft stage"?
@@svendandersen8338 'Realistic' really depends on the type of car. The R8's pedals are only fitted for that but Invicta has to fit any car type when sim racing - from stock to formula. So realistic will differ and of course, will personal preference as well.
Using our RaceHub software, we will make it easy to adjust pedal maps for example without calibrating the hardware every time :)
@@AsetekSimSports Thanks for the answer. The problem is that I don't have access to a GT3 car, but find it funny to know that I'm closer to the feel of a real GT3 car. So maybe I can drag it out from you: For a GT3 car, should I leave the engagement as stock (i.e. the soft stage brakes the car) or calibrate a deadzone for the soft stage - if my end goal is to be closer to the feel of a GT3 brake?
Would like to try the Invicta pedals and I bet they are great, but as long as the gas and brake pedal is stuck together, I'm not going to buy them, but I hope you will separate them at some point later.
100% this for me as well
That's completely fair! :)
We believe we have made a functional design that will be easy to mount and where the distance between the pedal arms will suit the majority of racers just fine.
But we appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration :)
/Martin, Asetek SimSports
@@AsetekSimSports I really hope you will accept the fact that you may have made a functional design, but people are very different in how they setup their rigs, and I don't think it would take much effort to separate them.
Anyway, it's great to see new products in the sim marked. :)
Would LOVE the ability to connect up to Fanatic wheelbases if this might be a possible option. Love what you have done with these pedals and would love to use them with GT7. Really appreciate you guys going the realistic route with your hardware. Sim racing community has been super weird with setups like so many have never actually driven a real car in anger. Great to see people that have experience in both.
If you plug in the pedals directly through your PC, you can use them with any other hardware :)
Thanks for the kind words. We really appreciate that!
Couldn't you do the same thing by just having a stop mechanism on the elastomer bushing, that still pushes on a loadcell after the stop? I get that fluid is non-compressible, but isn't a loadcell also non-compressible? Is the master/slave cylinder not just an extra step? Or maybe i'm misunderstanding something. At the end of this you're still actuating a loadcell right?
The 2-stage comes from being able to press directly on the fluid. So it's not just a mechanical stop or 1-stage like would find in a load-cell. There is a difference but it's hard to explain when you have not tried both.
Reviews of Invicta were released yesterday. Dave Cam comments on the brake feeling and the difference. That may help with some nuances: th-cam.com/video/G65H1hjZfqc/w-d-xo.html :)
@@AsetekSimSports Thanks for replying, they do look great!
@@gernsey7362 Sure thing. And thank you! :)
Nice looking well-constructed pedals but I see no reason that a person cannot limit total brake travel set up and using software set dead zones, pressure curves and adjust both minimum and maximum pressures applied and accomplish the exact same thing or feeling using a regular load cell set up for a lot less money.
Both systems work off the pressure applied to the brake pedal and how that pressure is "read" by the game main difference is that these pedals are using a pressure sensor that is using fluid as the medium between the pedal and the electrical pressure switch and the load cell is just directly reading the applied pressure on the switch without using fluid as the medium between the pedal and the switch.
Considering the fluid does not compress at all under pressure the difference should be minimal at best if both units are built to the same specs such as sloppiness in the pivot points or bending or flexing under equal applied pressures.
What the game actually sees is still the same final electrical signals sent by applying a certain amount of pressure applied by force to the brake pedal to the electrical pressure switch on both units.
I'm curious about this as well. What is the added value of the hydrolics in the Invicta's? It hasn't really been answered by any of the reviewers. Would be great if we could get an answer to this.
@@miseryshining The marketing is trying to sell this as with it being hydraulic it is the same and works the same as the real system in an actual race car as they are showing the amount of slack with the pedal, the calipers and brake pads to rotors ect. and claiming this system also does that.
The reality is that the system still functions the exact same as any other pressure based system as all you are doing is applying pressure to a variable pressure electrical switch and sending the same information to the games software regardless of whether you use this system or a loadcell system.
Any decent quality load cell pedal system can be set up to have minimal brake travel and what really is funny this system still uses the same Elastomer based bumpers system to adjust the "feel" of the travel being absolutely no different than a load cell pedal set.
What pedal adjustments this set makes with some of its "mechanical" adjustments the loadcell set van do the same using software set up.
These are nicely built pedals but not worth the cost, and RGB lighting strip, that is the funniest out of something claiming to be more realistic as how many race cars have you seen with RGB lighting on its pedals?
Also if the "master cylinder" develops a seal failure leaking all over your rig or flooring in your house down the road I bet that it will cost more and be much more of a pain to repair than the simple replacing of the electrical load cell switch on that type of pedal set up.
I just do not see the advantage or the attraction of going with a much more expensive hydraulic based system for a home sim rig.
Hi Bill
We believe the hydraulics of the Invicta pedals will make a difference and that there are very few, if any, load-cell solutions on the market that can match.
Regarding the RGB, we've made no apologies earlier that this is only part of the pedals that is not inspired by real racing. Sim racers are still gamers and we know many who think the LEDs are a cool feature. If it's not your style, they can be turned off completely :)
Regarding seal failures, Asetek has been making liquid cooling hardware for computers for 20 years. We know how to make sure that a system does not leak or will need maintenance after we ship it. We are very confident that customers won't experience any issues with leaks from the brake cylinder as it is a sealed system :)
/Martin, Asetek SimSports
@@AsetekSimSports First off I think your product looks like it is very well made and I am sure it is a quality product.
I also am sure your variable electronic pressure switch also works well and will do the same job as other variable electronic pressure style switches.
But where I find that the differences become nothing more than marketing hype is that the concept of using a sealed cylinder filled with fluid which of course the fluid itself does not compress and still using an Elastomer based bumper system to adjust the "feel" of the travel which is identical to how resistance is adjusted on a standard load cell pedal plus using a metal adjustable solid stop to adjust total pedal travel really has the "hydraulic master cylinder" doing nothing but holding and placing a non compressible liquid between pedal where pressure is applied and the variable pressure switch which detects the total amount of pressure and sends that information to the game.
All the video showing slack induced on a real world braking system of the caliper, brake pads rotors and the clearances between them is malarky as none of that hardware which actually introduces those clearances in a real world braking system is a part of your system to introduce those clearances or feeling.
Are you really going to say that a quality load cell cannot duplicate the feel of the system you are charging much more money for through set up with its own Elastomer based bumpers system to adjust the "feel" and length of the travel and using its software to precisely dictate exactly the amount of free travel or pressure is allocated through the use of dead zones and the total amount of braking force to be applied again through software and brake curve settings?
I really have a hard time swallowing the precision of all of those completely adjustable variables are better with your "imitation hydraulic master cylinder" other than being mostly marketing hype to justify your much higher priced system.
I do think your clutch system is very nice though but again very pricy for a single pedal add on.
I have no doubt your pedals work well but I do think you are pushing the hydraulic aspect as being a better solution than loadcell to justify the prices you are charging much more than although it is a different system for sure I still question the claims of being better or superior to a quality load cell setup costing hundreds of dollars less!
You are welcome to send me a set though to change my mind and opinion!😁
I don't understand. I've seen many onboard cams on GT3 cars where the brake pedal has long travel. And how is it even possible to do heel-and-toe shifting naturally with short travel brakes?
The Invicta Pedals replicate the pedals found in prototypes, formula racing, and a range of GT cars. If you change the elastomer to a softer version, you'll get a pedal that feels more like the ones with longer travel.
In terms of heel-and-toe, that's definitely possible with the pedals 😎🙌
Strong irl info.
So as Karl mentioned in his video, if instead of short to stages ... We go with 1 stage only, without travel... We will gain this 10th of a second, right?
No, that's not correct. It's hard to explain the feel of the 2-stage system but it's not just the short travel or a rock-hard stop - it's the combination of the two.
Plus, we don't believe we have seen as short a travel as ours in the rest of the pedals in the market. That's simply because it's difficult to achieve with a 1-stage system where you only have the polymer/elastomer/spring but no hard stop as well. At least if you want a system at will be reliable for many years given the amount of beating it will take when braking as hard as Invicta allows :)
Not all race cars have non assisted brakes. Even for my self who does gym i found testing the brake out with being bolted into the cockpit that these are too hard(not running in game or windows). I cannot even hit the 2nd stage on these with the white elastomer. Time will tell once i have the whole cockpit up and running.
It would've been better to have it travel a bit easier to the 2nd stage and then more force is needed etc rather than having it hard all the time. The Invicta accelerator and clutch feel good tho.
The hard elastomer is a true replica of the brakes found in different formula cars, hypercars, etc.
With the softer elastomers you'll get an experience more true to GT cars and different supercars.
If you're having trouble reaching the final braking stage, you can adjust the brake's final point in RaceHub. Hope this helps 🙌
Is there any prerequisite regarding the seat on the rig? Do i need a hard carbon fiber bucket seat in order to apply the force/power to the brake pedal in the best possible way? I have a VW Golf V seat on my rig which has a more or less soft cushion. I ask myself if my seat is no go with this kind of pedal system.
A brake as hard as Invicta's definitely benefits from a seat that doesn't flex. I think you're good with your current seat as hard carbon fiber is not a must but I could be wrong. Reviews are now out and we made a playlist with them on this channel. If you have doubts, I'd recommend you check them out to hear how they experienced it in their setups :)
/Martin, Asetek SimSports
That's not how muscle memory works. You don't need a lot of force to develop muscle memory.
And who takes 0.4s to push a pedal 2 inches?
I think they have a good product but they're ridiculously overselling the differences.
NICE--:-::-:-:-:
So about that steering wheel on that rig................... :D
Despite the little logo on the front, it's actually not our own design... yet ;) We're working on something really cool for you guys - both for wheels and wheelbases 💪
The wheel on the rig is from Rexing
I have the pedal set of your demonstration at 6:55. Its possible to use nylon spacers instead of rubbers to get the same hard stop feeling. And depending on how deep you put the rod into the pedal, you can get that same first stage with little resistance.
But I will be honest, I always preferred to not just have brake pressure, but also linearly related (small) travel because it makes muscle memory much easier. Some of the explanations here seem a little over-exaggerated. Who really uses an 85mm brake pedal in simracing, that is insanely long and will make your feet hurt.
Short but hard! That is the key!
Hvorfor har i ikke en Dansk webshop?
Vi er en international virksomhed, så derfor kommunikerer vi på engelsk langt de fleste steder. Du kan dog sagtens bestille til Danmark gennem vores almindelige webshop :)
@@AsetekSimSports order placed :)
This video explains it much better than the youtubers who recieved a review sample. I saw the vids first but was not really keen on getting one. But watching this video convinced me.
Hope it beats my fanatec v3 pedals eventhough i will miss the clutch. Price is simply too steep for including that currently. 5k DKK is heavy. Can’t wait to test it out and cover it later on.
Keep up the great work
@@RealLagoose Thank you for the kind words and for pre-ordering! We believe this upgrade will really make a difference for you - clutch or not. We can't wait to ship them to you :)
"short and hard" What does that remind me of?!! 😆
My girl prefers hard and long but hard and short also works.
Adjustability is key.
Most GT3 cars are built for endurance racing and driven by gentelman drivers.
Pedal ratio, master cylinder bore size and fatigue over a long run does not allow to run large bore masters as you do on your Audi. You probably only do short races.
They never feel like a brick wall like the invicta system. Once again, adjustability is key for a sim pedal.
You have prepared your system with pedal ratio adjustment in mind. WHY don`t you allow users to actually take advantage of it?
Is it because the overall pressure would be too high for the system?
Touring cars and karts due to short stints are exactly as you described, on the other hand look at all these pro/am GT3 cars:
th-cam.com/video/X-d0KwgZghE/w-d-xo.html&t
th-cam.com/video/REcvGkYC1iI/w-d-xo.html&t
th-cam.com/video/RESKus6RBUU/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/sIyQGcnvl_U/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/qOjQkAj6r04/w-d-xo.html
You can just install our extended travel kit and a softer elastomer, then you will have it as you propose and like :) This very Audi has done several 24H races and the brakes are exactly as homologated and delivered from the factory.
Why are you doing this to me? D Shut up and take my money!
I'm actually super happy with my VRS pedals but now I have to try but the Invicta Pedals.
Pre-order placed :D
Haha! Sorry, we just couldn't help ourselves ;)
Thank you for pre-ordering! ❤🙏
Waiting on you to send me an email asking for payment.
Hey mate,
The emails with payment details go out when your product is ready to ship (estimated early March). Once you’ve entered your information, we will only charge the card the moment your package leaves our warehouse. :)
mister André Erikson, you know that the Brakes in every car, including racecars are rockhard, when the car is not running right? Here some information about breke pedals in a real racecars: th-cam.com/video/XNot6nWEPAo/w-d-xo.html
Your product is anyway great, and its one of the best for simracing, but it has nothing to do with real racecars. but it makes also no sense to do so, it would make you slower in sim, cause there are missing G-Forces.
If you claim that a short travel is better, why do some drivers seem to go for a longer one, as is apparent in a bunch of racecar pedalwork clips online? To me, it seems more like personal preference of the driver, which would mean that this video is marketing nonsense. Looking at Lando Norris' F1 pedal cam video from three weeks ago, you can see the compression of the brake pedal changing significantly during trailbraking, contradicting your claim that all the brake force happens during the rock hard 2nd stage.
The driver's personal preference is, of course, a factor. And we are not claiming that every single race car brake pedal is exactly the same :)
We do think this video fairly well explains the physics of why a hard and short brake can help the average sim racer (or racer) become faster. Personal preference may then vary, and that's why we built adjustability into the product as well, but our brake WILL be hard when compared to almost everything else on the market. That's the design philosophy behind it :)
You doing a really great job on your channel!!! You may be interested in P-R-O-M-O-S-M.
I got the Simagic P2000, and the brake pedal is utter crap.