Goodnight 2JZ? | 1200HP B58. Stock Block, Stock Bores & No Dry Sump!?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 พ.ค. 2024
- When everyone was knee-jerk reacting negatively to the B58 engine in the A90 Toyota Supra, Stephen Papadakis & crew were the guys getting data, testing setups and then getting results on the 8,900rpm limiter.
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As discussed, Papadakis Racing hasn't had a B58 development program without any issues, but I think after this interview we can all honestly say there were not as many as we all might have thought! From boost response to bearing and engine coatings, lubrication and cooling systems, the quest for more and more power vs grip, this interview covers a lot of ground.
Getting 1200hp from the 8,900rpm limited platform, the team hits 2023 fresh off a championship win in Formula Drift and dives into further development of their 3.2L stroker version on tracks that favour more power, vs their tried and trusted 3.0L version on shorter runs.
The 6 cylinder alloy block runs JE pistons with stock rings, aftermarket bearings via ACL or King Bearings removing one choke point for failure along with a Supertech valvetrain and post 2021 6 port A91 B58 head. A BorgWarner 9274 is used with the 3.0L build and a 9280 with the 3.2L ensures appropriate turbo response for the multiple title-winning driver Fredric Aasbø. Low boost is around 1.2 Bar, high 2.3 Bar (17-33 Psi) with help from TiAL wastegates and AEM boost control solenoids
Also discussed is why the CSF Radiator setup and similar are now so often found in the rear of a drift car along with some insights into the stock lubrication system, Valvetronic setup and how impressive, or unimpressive in the case of the stock bearings, OEM coatings can be on modern engine builds.
Not discussed but of interest, the car runs an AEM Infinity ECU, Injector Dynamics ID 2000 injectors delivering E85 fuel, Brian Crower 100mm crank, MOAR series I-Beam Rods, Gforce GSR 4 speed dog box, RS-R Custom Coilovers, RS-R Racing springs and Tilton 600 Series pedal box.
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TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Papadakis Racing GR Supra
0:15 - Most Winningist FD Team
0:28 - Tuned In Podcast Episode 040
0:42 - Why A B58 & Not A 2JZ
1:55 - Time Moves On!
2:14 - Cast iron Vs Alloy Block
3:14 - Aftermarket Piston Design
4:52 - B58 Cylinder Head
6:06 - Valve Springs
6:30 - Valvetronic Locked
6:42 - 8,900rpm limit
6:56 - Bearings a Weakness
7:12 - Rebuilding & Maintenance
7:50 - Oil Pump Setup
8:44 - Lubrication System
9:55 - Why Not Dry Sump Off The Bat?
10:50 - 2 Turbo Options
11:28 - Boost Control
12:17 - 4 Port Solenoid Explanation
13:38 - Turbo and Engine Packages
14:50 - More Power, More 'Better'?
16:09 - Throttle Modulation & Throttle Bodies
16:57 - Boost Pressure
17:27 - Cooling Package
19:00 - Thanks Bro!
19:14 - Free Knowledge. Grab it!
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TAGS:
#highperformanceacademy #papadakisracing #supra #isthatasupra #a90 #drifting #formuladrift #csfradiators #aemelectronics #jepistons #supertech #borgwarner #aclbearings #kingbearings #rockstar #nitto #toyota #learntotune #enginebuilding101 #dontletthesmokeout #wiring101 #datanerd #gofasterwithdata #racecraft #learndriveoptimise #motorsport - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
This is one of the guys you SHOULD listen too!
Especially his high rev sounds rrraaahh like a tractor pull setup
@@redjhon2053 😂😂 Clearly you haven't watched the video
Agree 😂
@@redjhon2053 His comment was a reference to Papadakis "high rev tractor pulling sound" in the video. You still clearly haven't watched it, schizo.. 😂😂 I'll help you out 9:21
@@redjhon2053 🤡
Fantastic interview loaded with a goldmine of info. Thank you so much for making these. You’re videos and podcasts are nothing short of exceptional. Thank you guys.
Cheers for the support dude!
Mr. Papadakis was very generous with his time and knowledge. Great interview, Andre! ✌😎
These videos are great for me, a beginner car guy, to understand the different ways people build for different motor sports. I've been binge watching for a few hours now and I can't get enough
The "earlier" B58 they discuss is actually the later second gen B58.
The B58TU is the engine they speak about. The two port exhaust is what BMW calls the "Medium output version" found in most later non-M Performance 40i cars. e.g. X5 xDrive40i, and apparently the supra. They use this in packages where space, cost, and efficiency are most important.
Higher output second gen B58tu models, "High output version" , have 6 exhaust ports. E.g. G2X M340i, M440i, etc.. This second gen B58 also received various technology updates over the first gen, mostly to improve efficiency and emission control.
All early first gen non-tu B58s had normal cylinder heads with individual exhaust ports. e.g. F2X M140i/M240i, F3X 340i, 440i, early G30 540i, early G12 740i, Early G01/G02 X3/X4 M40i models. This is the OG B58.
Fantastic engine if you are considering buying one. Great to tune. Even better If left stock, the engine will likely outlive the BMW body it's inside of.
Probably outlive everything it’s in
until the timing chain snaps. I'm not sure about the B58 specifically, but I've had it happen to me on my past BMW's and the chain on the B58 looks the same, a tiny little bicycle chain, and its on the back on the B58. I own my cars and drive a lot, so decided to stay away from the B58 when I saw that if anything they made their timing chain issue worse, I got an IS500 instead.
@@85CEKR the aftermarket support for B58 is rising, so it’s slowly climbing to the popularity of the 2JZ as a tuning platform with an extra time
@@85CEKR Craig, with all due respect that's a concern relevant to any engine with a timing belt or chain, which is essentially every passenger vehicle on earth, save for rotaries and heavy duty gear driven engines. Not to mention, Toyota chose this BMW B58 engine as one for their own production long before the Is500 was even announced. If it's good enough for Toyota, it's good.
There is nothing particularly noteworthy about the timing chain or guides in the B58, aside from it's simplicity, being an Inline-6 configuration. The chain is made by IWIS, which makes chains for just about every brand and industry on the planet. BMW doesn't produce chains. In-fact, your IS500 has an IWIS made timing chain that is twice as complicated as this B58 at minimum, being that it has two cylinder heads and two more camshafts.
Being that your anecdotal prior experience with a BMW timing chain was negative, I'm glad you found a car you like! Albeit, such a compromise as an IS500 which is essentially a knock-off version of it's german counterparts.
Cheers
@@XcoolcoolbeansbeansX it's really not nearly as much an issue with other brands, BMW is the only brand that has multiple class action lawsuits against them because of the issue, I'm part of 2 for 2 separate vehicles. And I'm not sure about the chain brand but I looked into this and the chains on all lexus/toyotas are massive compared to bmw's. The chain from our x3 was literally smaller than the one on my kids bicycle. When my x3 was at the dealer I managed to talk to a mechanic on break he said mine was one of 7 BMW's in there that day with a broken timing chain. If you want to dump alot of money into the B58 to bullet proof it and make a ton of power it's a great engine, if your a normal person I'm pretty skeptical. I've been a BMW fan boy for years and following them really close, everytime a new engine comes out it wins all these reliability awards and everyone praises them, then 6 or 7 years down the road reality sets in and people start to realize the truth, I suspect the B58 will be the same.
The video series Stephan did where he took apart these engines for the first time and figured things out is pretty amazing. Recommended watch for sure.
Heck yeah! More Stephen Papadakis racing not just from his channel! :D
@@redjhon2053 English?
papa is the real deal
TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Papadakis Racing GR Supra
0:15 - Most Winningist FD Team
0:28 - Tuned In Podcast Episode 040
0:42 - Why A B58 & Not A 2JZ
1:55 - Time Moves On!
2:14 - Cast iron Vs Alloy Block
3:14 - Aftermarket Piston Design
4:52 - B58 Cylinder Head
6:06 - Valve Springs
6:30 - Valvetronic Locked
6:42 - 8,900rpm limit
6:56 - Bearings a Weakness
7:12 - Rebuilding & Maintenance
7:50 - Oil Pump Setup
8:44 - Lubrication System
9:55 - Why Not Dry Sump Off The Bat?
10:50 - 2 Turbo Options
11:28 - Boost Control
12:17 - 4 Port Solenoid Explanation
13:38 - Turbo and Engine Packages
14:50 - More Power, More 'Better'?
16:09 - Throttle Modulation & Throttle Bodies
16:57 - Boost Pressure
17:27 - Cooling Package
19:00 - Thanks Bro!
19:14 - Free Knowledge. Grab it!
Take $50 USD off ANY HP Academy course (even the 1000hp 2jz engine building course example!) with this coupon: TH-cam50
Enroll now: hpcdmy.co/50offytc - Taz
Papadakis makes some of the neatest and most well organized videos out there. They seem to run their team in the same fashion as well. Wish they uploaded more frequently
It was fascinating listening to these two! Both were so knowledgeable about the subject, it was amazing. Pleasure to listen to!
I remember waaaay back seeing El’Papi in the back of JG building motors while we were randomly picking up 301/303 house cams for our LS motors back then lol. He was a bit chunky… now he looks so healthy :)
Stephan was always so very nice and rather quiet back in those days. He’s come so far and that is awesome! He made some of the most iconic Honda builds back then and now he’s a giant in the industry. Good dood for sure!
I just picked up a blown B58, for $150 bucks, I just bought it to take it apart and see how it's built, lucky for me the head is still good, crank is done, block is done, but 5 rods and pistons survived, what I thought was weird is that it's not a 2 piece girdle blocks like the N54's.
That's actually interesting because I believe many aluminum engines have a girdle to overcome the weakness of the aluminum.
That’s the idea ig with a modular design family of engines.
@GabeIsHere Yeah I thought so too, the main caps are beefy af tho, still only 2 main bolt caps.
@@SavageBunny1 the nice thing about the b58 is the thick windage tray... or more like a girdle that they use to help stiffen and tie the caps to the block, we find the caps start to walk around the 1000hp mark, the liners are good safely for 700whp, at 800 we find they start to speckle and flake.
Captivating conversation. Papadakis is one of the goats. I could listen to him talk about engines and racing all day - fantastic interview!
I recognize lots of info from my S55 experience, i ended up controlling the oil pump at low load only and letting it go to its "emergency mode" at mid-high load.
And fun fact, if i dont remember incorrectly, the plasma spray in the cylinders are almost double the thickness in the S55 compared to the B58 :)
youre spont on s55 does have a thicker plasma spray almost double,s55 is superiour in many ways,b58 has seen pre mature plasma wear on liner,some had to replace blocks at 40k miles.
@@durin23 Yeah they probably played it safe with the S55 since it was the beginning for the plasma coating for BMW :)
@@durin23 That sounds like the usual teething troubles for a new bore treatment. The nikasil and alusil were the same in their first runs, settled down after a few years as the process matured.
I'm not sure if the B58 uses the same method, but the plasma spray was an invention from Ford.
@@gbales84 i think gtr vr38 engine also has the same plasma spray around .05 thickness as s55 and those blocks hold 2000hp without sleeves
Great interview, as always. Thanks Taz 👍🏾
Insane amount of information in this one.
Almost unbelievable. The B58 is clearly a great engine.
@@redjhon2053 fanboy mad
@@X3R0D3D 2jz fan boy?
Every 3 liter engine has the same capabilities. Just depends whether you build it and have enough boost.
I always knew it was going to prove capable because of how the N54 can go make 1000hp and 45psi on a _bone stock longblock and stock plastic intake_ lol. Not to mention, that car was stock DME, stock trans, and lasted for years and years of abuse 💀
Another great one Andre! Always love an interview with Stephan
Really enjoyed that interview and information presented. Great questions - both leading and trailing. Thanks
The orange IROX rod bearings are of the first direct admissions by BMW that start-stop systems kills rod bearings. They realized this with the N series engines that had start-stop retrofitted later in production life. These engines were never designed for Start-stop. They are the reason why rod-bearing failures have been few and far between on BMW B series modular engines, N63TU2 and above V8 engines, N74TU and above V12 engines.
This orange coating is a polymer that essentially allows the bearings to run with little or no oil pressure for a longer period over a traditional bearing, without significant damage.
The side effects of these bearings are a fantastic and welcomed addition to all STOCK modern BMW engines (maybe not so much a 1200 HP race engine constantly running 90 PSI oil pres.). These are an added buffer against the ridiculously tight bearing clearances BMW chose to keep to this day. They make the bearings that much less sensitive to occasional oil starvation, which is inevitable in every engine's life (Cold starts, air gap after oil services, high G forces, steep hills, etc..)
If I could, I would have IROX coated bearings in every engine I'd every have. This trend will hopefully catch on before the combustion engine is dead.
Do you know if anyone has had an opportunity to check their bearings on a high mileage engine under normal conditions to see if the coating wears out?
Me personally, I'd use cryo and wpc on mine. At least that way I'm not relying on a coating to give me the results I want.
@@grein545 I'm sure it's sacrificial to some degree, eventually revealing what is a traditional rod bearing, which is still fine technically. In our experience, we have yet to see a rod-bearing fail under normal use on any of the newer engines with the IROX bearings.
@@MrDAllen1124 Based on what? Forum posts? That opinion is a dime a dozen. Every old-head says the same thing. Those technologies have been around for decades, and while good, it's not for the same purpose. We've been through all that shit on the S54s, S65/85s, N54/55s, etc. for years.
No matter what bearing you are running, you will be "relying on a coating to give you the result you want". Whether it's peened metal, or polymer, that's all a bearing is. In absence of oil film, the polymer coated bearings survive longer. In an ideal world, there would never be an absence of oil film. If that were the case, you could run the most basic single metal bearings on earth, forever, with no wear.
Hope polymer coated bearings hit the main stream aftermarket someday.
Perfectly described!
This material is absolutely fantastic ❤
the level of papadakis racing dedication is unbelievable. i think this kind of dedication is below one percent
Whata awesome way to geek out listening to these two dudes. So the B58 is actually a sensational engine. SP did all the hardwork so we only need to build the unit
2 jz never dies.
Great interview guys! Thanks for sharing it.
Metallurgist here. @4:12 The "steel plasma sprayed lining" is probably not steel but nickel-based. Some nickel-aluminium plasma sprayed powder mix that forms a base of metallic nickel with NiAl intermetallic hard wearing particles embedded in it. Since nickel is also ferromagnetic, you'd get the same reacton to a magnet as if it were iron. (Similar to a Nickasil coating, but deposited by a different method.)
What an awesome interview!
Another absolute masterpiece,
Thank you Mr. Papadakis and HPA!
B58 had loads of aftermarket support. Been in the BMW’s for time now and everyone knows how much crazy potential they have
Papadakis love you man👍 I have been following you since your drag’s years. Lot’s of respect 🙏
Excellent information for a BMW newbie’s like me and relative information for previous engineering like the RB and 2jz . Great questions and responses to let us little guys learn about the details. Papa your knowledge is valuable to our community. Thanks again.
Fascinating stuff!!! 19 minutes just flew by ❤
High f*cking quality video. I love that when Stephan mentions something you insert clips of what it is he's talking about (if applicable)
Stephen is the man!
Great interview once again ;)
Great questions. subbed
Papadakis an OG in the Import game. True legend and pioneer!
Interesting and informative 🇯🇲 💯
He is an actual King
Excellent interview 🫡
Making me feel good about the B58TU in my 2022 M240ix, had no idea how robust it is.
Fantastic mate.
Very well done interview, props to you for asking some very good questions
Glad you enjoyed it and cheers for watching 😎
What a great interview
This was top notch insight of a interesting new Technology ! Thank you Guys ❤
Papadakis is an exceptional human So generous with his knowledge and so articulate..
Brilliant video. The man is a wizard with an engine
Good interview!
Amazing questions, great stuff. 👌
Good work fellas. Top notch on every level.
Pap is one of the coolest, down to earth dudes I've ever met at a motorsports event! Full of both knowledge and patience. I know both HPA and Pap are both on tight schedules, but I would LOVE to see more of both of you together 😁😁
He's a real one to the industry for sure and we love talking to him. We have an older interview with him but if you haven't heard it already his podcast episode might scratch your itch nicely for now: th-cam.com/video/lrYpgQIXSSM/w-d-xo.html
It is on Spotify, Apple Music etc too, just search for the title of 'Tuned In' - Taz.
@@hpa101 Great suggestion! I'm halfway through now 😊 Keep up the amazing work
Best youtube channel for engine builders hands down. Another great interview Andre!
After listening to this. Is the 2jz dead..No. is the B58 as good.. hell YES. Saying stock block but with stock displacement JE pistons isnt a stock block. Thats a built block even if its just drop in piston n rods. Drop in pisnton/rod combo in a 2j can do the same number. Happy the b58 is a true success. Better tech with earlier boost response.
I love the way Andre irrespective of who he's talking to, breaks down what they've said so us laymen can understand.
Give him a pat on the back from me Taz
His the best 100%
Love how he breaks things down
That was a great interview, just like two industry guys chatting down the pub👍
Papadakis is the OG for the b58 builds. Loved his tear down video when it came out and his progress on building the car
I was watching his original videos in his "quest for a 1000hp"
Kinda lost track after that
Nice to see the finished product now
Always great content.
Amazing to listen too 👍
The interviewer is great!
Andre is down right the best interviewer out there.
so respectful and always complimenting and adding to the conversation.
it was a delight watching this interview....
Agree
Amazing video with a brilliant dude
Very entertaining section, thank you
Two smart dudes in this video!
What a beast lol.. the motor and Stephan, perfect combo
Thanks Brah !
great questions
Saw the Supra in NC a couple months ago. Nice.
I love these videos !!!
I can listen to papadakis cars for hours
Dual 3-ports! Andre, please do a deep dive into this!
This is great!
This have been so informative amazing. Would love to have Papadakis’ take to do up a video/kit for a 700range hp Supra that will run also reliably for a daily.
love the z4 drift build
I saw one roll racing (supra) at Tailem Bend near Adelaide, on the weekend. There was even a Z4, seemingly stock. This thing ran and beat a lot of big HP cars, it had been tuned for sure, but its traction obviously being a big thing, getting it down better.
@@redjhon2053 fanboy mad
It's almost as if... almost... that inline 6 engines can almost universally make a lot of power. From jaguar xk, rb series, jz, barra, and so many more
Two tuning heroes in one video?! ❤️
If Stephen says come work for me, I will drop anything I have in my hand and go, best in the business
I could listen to him talk engine tech all day. As time passes, I find myself becoming more interested in the tech in the race cars than the event itself 🤓
This dude made best part of marketing for bmw gear heads around b58 ... I'm not saying that his shilling or was prepaid, but the tear down and full inspection of the engine convinced a lot of people to b58, especially tuning potential.
He did mention being involved with Toyota. But to date the B58 falls very short from being a successor, regardless of manufacturer.
@@allboost70 not sure if it falls “very” short of 2jz, but my point was that it’s far better to tune stock than it’s bmw predecessors and he removed a lot of guess work for people trying “break the ground”. For example: not needing to dry sump it is a major good news, stock sleeves taking 1000hp, the list goes on.
Had a few wins!!! Yeah they do. Great team at Papadakis Racing. Go 411 Tuerck!!!
When papadakis is involved, I listen.
Great video
The best A90 Supra channel I followed is Jackie Ding. He just boosted his car to 760 or 790whp on stock block. It's crazy. My next car will be a 2020-2021 M240i x-Drive. I am saving up.
They should really interview Jackie next.
@@redjhon2053 Haha very funny. 🙄
But no, not Jackie Chan. Jackie Ding.
@@redjhon2053 I'm gonna have to look him up. Jackie Ding and maybe Dewey Dewitt are the only ones I follow in the grassroots racing scene.
man those M2s are just so good. i will need to find one eventually.
Lovely 🙌🏽
I saw the 4 episode of papadakis racing building and dynoing the engine, 3 years after we get this AMAZING car with and insane engine, compared to what people Thought/said about the B58
also crazy this thing rips... 3.2L 1200 HP, 8900 red line and just checking oil and filter haha
B58 is nuts
Most modern engines don't need much more than regular maintenance. In terms of output 1200 hp is percentage wise well within the design window of the engine. Hence the use of many stock components.
German engineering is just on another level...
You have to keep in mind that we're not talking about the full grown S58 M-engine which the M3/M4 has.
I loved that video i learned a ton i knew i was right make best use of stock bmw b58 is tough will be my next car
I just love it when H.P Academy ask questions because my man with his knowledge gets the Top Successful Racers/ Engineer's in the industry to reveal all The Secret Sauce!!!! Pay attention Boy's and Girl's. Bravo 👏 bravo 👏🏁🏁🏁🏁🏁😎👍💯💯💯💯
Informative, brilliant questions, can we get some of the “barn find celica” Mr Papadakis
HP always learning me
Maybe next podcast episode. If he has time we'll chat to him again for sure 😎 If you didn't catch his episode already you can find it here: www.hpacademy.com/blog/040-building-a-reliable-1000hp-4-cylinder-for-formula-d-podcast/
Plasma plated sleeve well I just learnt something new 📝 ✍️
Man, 90 psi oil pressure all the time? I wonder if bearing erosion is an issue? Papadak is a legend. Thanks Andre and HPA Team💪
they probably change main bearings before erosion starts show up... it's cheaper and easier to change them than rebuild whole engine
@@Deep42Thought it's been decades since i first heard of bearing erosion. I haven't heard anybody talk about it or contribute a failure to it yet. I started to think it was an old tale...
@@PANTYEATR1 it's racing engine so changing oil and other wearable parts is worth the effort and easier on the budget. Same goes with dry sump. It's causing due to excessive vacuum. Also Merican drift is for kids with only 3 turns... for real one or two transitions and 3 turns? such a shame
N54’s run quite high oil pressure too. I think BMW is overcompensating with all their previous rod bearing issues. 😂
Хорршее интервью! Спасибо, пацаны)
cluck the lunk in the duscruption for some fush and chups bro.
great video.
padapaolis actually lost at least one b58 already. He's such a trooper.
So many people simp for the 2JZ and old JDM's no one can afford them anymore, we should be embracing what we have.
really impressed with the back and forth in this interview. I was fully expecting the usual line of questioning but this is some fantastic in depth talk on a really interesting build.
Glad you enjoyed it 😎
I've been saying this for years , since the release of the b58, totally slept on engine
Slept on at release for the Supra but the B58 was out before the Supra's release lol
Step always said that they build not just fast car, but also made Unique car and still competitve.Like Corolla that converted to RWD and use 4 Cyl instead 6 Cyl or V8. Good Content :D