Paul Harrel did a great presentation on this a number of years back. I would argue that anything within 10 yards with proper shot placement and knowing how your gun patterns would effectively neutralize the threat. That being said some people are fortunate enough to have large homes where a given space may be larger than 10 yards. If that is the case a follow up shot may be necessary. My perspective is limited and my experience in a home invasion is nil. Having multiple people living in my home in different parts of my home. I prioritize not over penetrating on a shot and risk harming any of them.
100% Paul's video reinforced my experience in the field testing bird shot on targets at in home distances. I found that it not great outside my house. But inside is another story.
This is a great discussion and Chris, I concur. My nickels worth: I have shot a lot ALOT of 00 buck and Slug. I would choose neither, exclusively, for home defense due to over penetration. I agree with Paul Harrel's assessment. And let us be honest the objective here is to dissuade and convince the home invader to retreat (leave the premises) and if they die within the process then that was their choice. I am not looking to kill anyone on the onset but to get them to leave through vigorous and aggressive negoiations. Remember we never shoot to kill and keep that in mind for after the shooting scenario. Two things with bird shot for the average home. A) a face full or chest full of shot at 10 yards or less of #2 or #6 is going to stop an attacker (it may kill them it may not, but they will rethink their choices in life for sure). We are not talking about an assault over the beach scenario here, we're talking about thievery. B) we don't have to worry about over penetration across my house and into my neighbor's home with #2 or #6. With 00 shot I would have to at least worry about loved ones down the hall etc etc. Slug rounds; yeah I would be patching a lot of holes down the street and hopefully thats all I would have to patch; likely to get sued etc etc. It was suggested to me (many years ago) to load the following; Three, Two, One (with extended tube or 3,1,1); birdshot, 00 buck and then Slug. According to the FBI most shootings are 2.3 to 2.5 shots. The theory being if we get past the first three rounds, we may need to up the game (shot placement and back stop are now considerations at this point). This was, in my training and experience, a bit over the top but... you have to decide. I switched to a KSG now. The KSG is easier to wield indoors; I can attach a super bright flashlight (my preferred home defense non-lethal fires weapon) and it works similarly to a Remington 870. The load out is now whatever the situation may dictate for camping or home defense. A bright strobing flashlight can be just as effective in the house as the shot gun. For those who don't train or don't want to use a gun (no worries) ; may I recommend a strong strobe flashlight and bear spray and training again and again.
Chris Dunn 10 yards with a "full choke" shotgun that has been patterned using thee inch magnum turkey loads? I doubt it. I can tell you that pattern will stay tight up to more like 15 or 20 yards before it opens up enough to be less than lethal. I would agree that 10 yards would be about it for a tube cylinder bore. Chokes make a difference and so does the velocity. Try a full choke with a three inch magnum turkey load.
@@rbm6184 you’re right. Magnum rounds make a difference and the use of a choke makes a considerable difference on how much the group opens up and at what distance. My initial comment was more a general thought. I’ve never tested this personally but I witnessed a gentleman make wax slugs using birdshot. The result was, a large mass of birdshot essentially being turned into a slug and being able to hit targets at 50 yards. In that case it didn’t increase the damage of the birdshot but only the effective range. That’s why it’s important to train and know how your gun patterns with the way you have it setup.
As someone who used to scrub trauma surgery, I can say it will turn tissue to hamburger, and it will go between ribs and into lungs. The pellets are almost impossible to get out of bones and other tissue.
Wife is an ER nurse. She had a guy come in last year after an accidental discharge. A child fired the 12 gauge at him from about 15 feet away. Luckily the victim was overweight. It carved a two inch wide, roughly 1 inch deep trench across the front of his belly. Bird shot will definitely ruin a bad guys day. The shot cup was stuck in his body as well.
As Steve said at close range it doesn't matter. Bird shot with in 7 yards will make a hole in plywood about 2" in diameter but if you take a head shot at that range...you'll be calling Service Master for the clean up.
bird shot is lethal if its 3 yards or less, 4 yards if its fully choked. so 9-12 ft or long spear range. thats what ive seen from the plywood and meat target tests. after those ranges the shot pattern opens up to where its no longer a large mass/clump of shot. after that it loses power exponentially^2. so a shot at 5 yards can be half or a quarter of the power it was at 4 yards. a 4 inch pattern has a quarter of the power of when it was at a 2 inch pattern. a single yard could be the difference of an intruder getting shot in the chest and the shot stopping on his breast bone letting him grappling you and his heart being hamburger.
@@dylconnaway9976 I saw that one, it was somewhere in South America with a dispute about money from purchasing food, like 1 dollar or 2.. the the woman son or husband shot the guy like 3 ft away and blew a hole in his arm,. Guy who got shot just looked at his arm in shocked.
When I was a rookie cop the first dead person I saw was a drug dealer killed by a rival drug dealer. The weapon used was a full length model 870 12 gauge and the round used to kill the guy was a high brass #4 duck load. The pellets penetrated through the chest, into the left lung and heart. He actually had enough stamina in him to drive away, but was a dead man driving.
The fact that the guy was able to drive away, though, means that he was not stopped immediately. If someone is amped up on drugs and is coming at me with a knife, it doesn't help me if he eventually dies a minute later. I need him to stop right now.
@@sbreheny "The fact that the guy was able to drive away, though, means that he was not stopped immediately. " Bull. Obviously the threat was stopped and retreated. Self-DEFENSE is NOT about killing someone.
The over penetration with buck is my biggest concern, at the distance I would be defending myself in my home birdshot particularly heavy birdshot would stop a threat and pose much less risk of danger to my neighbors. I agree with your point of distance reducing it's effectiveness. However in a home those distances are much shorter than if it were elsewhere. There are many good videos giving data on the penetration and effectiveness of different loads.
Run low recoil then. At 1200 ft per second, double ougt buck will not overpenetrate. For every shot size under double-ought you use, step up 50 to 75 ft per second. If you're using a number four buck, just to get the fastest stuff you can. Number four buckshot barely reaches the internal organs, so it's not going to overpenetrate. In my personal opinion I would not consider it for home defense because it's so unreliable for reaching internal organs. I consider number one to be the ideal buckshot load. The pellets are large enough that they always reach internal organs, and small enough that you basically don't have to worry about overpenetration at all. If you want to do a mental exercise with home defense ammunition, ask yourself if you would trust it to stop a charging feral hog. If the answer is no, you shouldn't be loading it for home defense.
Many years ago, Finn Seregard (Pretty sure I misspelled that) published an article in American Rifleman where he tested various self defense guns using simulated walls, pork ribs and hot dogs to represent the bad guy. He found that the column of shot from bird shot shells worked very well and didn't kill people in the next room. Remember that the column of shot is fairly short at 10-15 feet and acts like a solid slug until it goes through something, then it disperses. Buck shot went through multiple walls before it stopped. Remember that 00 buckshot is like a bunch of 32 caliber bullets. Finn found that even a 22 LR would go through multiple walls.
@@GeorgeSemel That's the name. It was a good article. He simulated the human body with hot dogs and pork ribs and tried a bunch of different guns on them. Well done, repeatable research.
A friend of mine from Med school worked in a LA ER for several years. He told me the local gang members often used bird shot, and it was almost 100% fatal. Kind of hard to argue that sad experience. ... Patterns? They will open up about 1" every 3'. Across a 20' living room, that is about a 7" pattern. ....
@@BatCaveOz sounds like you’re a dumbass. What he says is correct and gangs do in fact use whatever ammo they can get their hands on… birdshot is cheap and plentiful
Worth a mention for those who don’t know… you can find #4 buckshot as well as #4 birdshot. They are substantially different in terms of pellet size. At most home defense distances either one should work but there is a noticeable difference in the projectiles going downrange. That being said, the hardest recoiling loads I’ve ever shot excluding magnums are #4 birdshot. High brass turkey loads that have about 1 1/4 oz of shot in a 2 3/4 shell. For comparison most 2 3/4 buckshot or slugs have 1 oz of shot, and often have less brass.
Interesting you say this, because I have my first couple loads of my 12 ga. set for #4 birdshot for better hit probability in the middle of the night when my head may be foggy. My shot will easily be inside 20 feet. My next load up is #4 buckshot and that will seal the deal. If I'm on the streets, #1 buckshot is my go to; better hit probability than double aught & just as lethal.
I'm a big fan of #4 buck. It falls right in the middle of the entire range of bird/buckshot and makes a good compromise for self-defense... not ideal for either birds OR bucks, however. AND, the majority of my "self-defense" birdshot is #4 Heavy Field loads.
We have a couple boxes 3 inch mag turkey loads, I have never tested them, 2 3/4 00 loaded right now...have a box of #4 buckshot, too...our engagement range about 12-13 feet, honestly I think #6 game load would work just fine...
I keep my home defense shotgun loaded with #4 buck. It's the best of both worlds in my opinion. ( Adequate stopping power/ less chance of over penetration.)
#4 BUCK is the “FBI load.” Lesser shot is not considered adequate. Do not expect any shot to spread noticeably within the confines of a home. DIY loads have issues at trial, due to the lack of reference data.
Do you have any links to court cases where a citizen was convicted for shooting an attacker only because, or primarily because, the citizen used their own handload ammunition? I'd really like to read any stories regarding that you can link.
As an Emergency Physician and having dealt with all sorts of GSW(Gun Shot Wound) victims including 12 gauge bird shot, I can say this for sure. 12 gauge bird shots are indeed effective and deadly, here I will give just one example. Little over two years ago, a home intruder high on drugs broke into a home and was confronted by the homeowner with a 12 gauge loaded with 7.5 bird shot. He shot the intruder into the upper leg from about 16 feet away and this is what it did. It made a hole the size of an orange, it shattered the femur and ruptured the femoral artery, this instantly disabled the intruder and the homeowner provided aid. Had he not provided aid, the intruder would have bled out. When he arrived at our trauma united, two tourniquets were applied and was still bleeding and shortly after arrival went into cardiac arrest due to volume loss. We did a mass infusion and resuscitated him, surgery took over and fixed him.
Only reason I can think of using birdshot is if I was living in an apartment and I know I have neighbors behind every wall and so don’t want to over penetration
@@Rumblestrip that is your opinion. I have personally seen an interior apartment wall stop number 6 hi brass, which will cause an absolutely Grievous wound against a human being.
Bottom line is if it’s not good enough to penetrate a few sheets of drywall it’s not going to penetrate properly on an intruder if push comes to shove. Everyone focuses so much on the magic ammo that won’t penetrate walls but will stop a threat, it doesn’t exist. Closest thing to this magic is called shot placement. If you hit your target the rounds won’t have much energy out the other side
#4 is great idea and compromise, 00 buck is best for hunting and battle, but alot for home hallway, believe me you wont be wanting to fight much with a chest full of 4 buckshot, also great load for a .410 or Judge.
A common load for .410 is 3 pellets of 000...those pellets bigger, and just as fast as 9mm...say ouch...I must admit I not sure what the next, smaller shot for .410...is it #4...? that would work,too...
@@Cageey1117That's why you ALTERNATE loads for self-defense. You don't need to kill him. Just clipping him is enough to get him to leave you alone and run. Clipping him AT ALL is better than a miss. It mentally distracts him and allows you to FOLLOW UP with a buck shot.
@@Darthdoodoo No, that's tactical thinking. It's the same way you can use hollow points with FMJ in the same magazine. The same way you use regular rounds and TRACER rounds in the same belt on a machine gun, genius. Starting off with birdshot will increase the chance of you hitting him before he hits you without running the risk of accidentally hitting a family member in another room in your initial state of panic. And once he's hit (or even if he's not), he'll either scram and flee for his life, or he'll get behind cover and fight to the death. Once he's behind cover and you're sure he's here to fight, then that's when you want the better penetration and more concentrated circles of buckshot.
00 Buck reduced recoil 8 pellet loads seem to offer the best of everything in 12ga self defense loads. My 870 is loaded with Federal's version of this loading. Pellet Spread with a modified choke is generally about 1" per 3 feet of distance, 30ft/10yd = 10 inch pattern / 64ft/18yd = 18 inch pattern. The average adult male is 18 inches across at the shoulders. So most shotguns with most loads will deliver a full pattern on target in the 15 to 20 yard range.
Great topic Guys; this discussion has been going on since the advent of the shotgun. I've come to the conclusion that when turkeys need shooting use a turkey load. 3" Magnum turkey loads put the worse kind of hurt on a target and NO ONE ever invited a turkey inside.
We have some, i've never tested any of it...00 recoils plenty enough for the missus, 3" mag turkey load might knock her backwards...heck, it takes sweet talking to get her practice with low brass birdshot...she has fired 00, knows it will recoil, but will do what is necessary...in fact, about time to shoot a few shells again...we use a stoeger coach gun, we're big believers in simple, and more simple when hands are shaking...
The training counselor for our NRA instructor class 35 years ago suggested that number 1 buck was the optimal home defense shotgun round. More pellets, less penetration through the body than 00 buck, lighter recoil.
#4 or larger will work, at room-to-room range; but my first choice for my 12 ga, for this purpose, is #4 buck. The smaller pellets (relative to 00 or 000) are fine for less overpenetrating, but the higher pattern density is the real star imo
@@Ash_95 No, you’re right. For most “defensive” engagements, #4 in a home at the longest distance in the home will have the best pattern, have enough penetration to clear a torso, but not have much left after the fact, and the highest probability of hitting vitals. Basically; It’s the smallest pellet that will achieve desired penetration on a human, and therefore has the highest pellet count. “What’s the smallest pellet that will do that job without being overkill?” No 4.
I think birdshot in the House is like a big Glaser Safety Slug or a big MagSafe round. Out of a full choke barrel, at house range, the shot is still in a tight group and has lost little of it's muzzle energy, concentrating the energy in a small area. As for BB ricochet, on a "soft target", like a human body, I think it would be minimal. So yes, birdshot, at house ranges, I think would be sufficient to stop someone. And as they say, "It beats the hell out of nothing."
Sorry fellas, this myth is not necessarily busted if used inside of a home at room width or hallway length distance. There's been too many T&Es over this and birdshot can be devastating up close, unless maybe you're up north where you wear very thick clothing in the winter time.
Yes, same here. If it's my wife using the shotgun then I expect the scenario would be her and the kids hunkered together in a back corner with the shotgun aimed at the bedroom door. I want her to be able to shoot through the door if the doorknob jiggles. I had not considered light shot ricochet inside the room. But she's also tiny, and 00 Buck may be too punishing on her for a follow up shot. #4 may be a better all around choice.
Yes, I work at a gun range and we don't allow birdshot or buckshot, only slugs in shotguns. The reason is, the backstop is steel plate covered in rubber chunks, and the bird/buck shot will bounce right back, while the slugs stay downrange. I've been there when someone did use buckshot, and some of it did come back, we were lucky no one got hurt!
@@jwilsonhandmadeknives2760 it's the weight of the projectile that causes recoil. 1 1/4 oz 00 buckshot has no more recoil than 1 1/4 oz #8 birdshot given the same powder charge.
I’m not advocating the use of birdshot for home defense but one thing they cover in the video but I often see left out of this age old argument is the use of heavier birdshot. It’s usually 7 or 8 shot versus buckshot. When you get up into #2 or BB it has a lot more mass than #8 shot and would, theoretically, penetrate more.
I keep my home defense shotguns loaded with 4 BUCK. It will do the job even at the longest possible ranges in my home and still not be such a danger to the neighbors.
So, #4 Buckshot, for the newbies, is 0.24inch diameter lead balls. So, about the size and weight of a .25ACP bullet (close enough), with a 12Gauge shell being loaded with up to 45 ( generally around 40) pellets in a 3 inch magnum shell, around 25-30 pellets in a 2.5 inch shell. Some folks seem to think they could shrug off a .25ACP or a .22LR hit ( I’ve yet to see anyone actually volunteer), but having 25 or more of them is another thing altogether 😜
@@andrewallason4530 Yep, and depending upon the loading the shot shell velocity of #4 buck will be about 1200 to 1500 fps out of the muzzle. I do not think th .25 Browning is near that range, probably more like 700 fps. I hope to never have to unleash the buckshot on an intruding threat; but when the goal is to stop the threat, that is big medicine.
@@andrewallason4530 You are mostly right. It is about the same diameter, difference is the weight. The .25 ACP is about 50 gr, a single #4 buck is about 20 gr. But again getting a swarm of 25+ of those in your direction will make a number on you.
I use cheap birdshot. I open the crimp fill the gaps with hot glue and reseal. I tested it on dead feral hogs and it was devastating. No over penetration and it exploded on entry.
I know a man that had a accidental discharge in his living room and he was using #8 bird shot. The #8 bird shot went through his drywall ceiling, through the 5/8 in plywood 2nd floor, through the carpet and padding, and through the drywall ceiling on the second floor into the attic but did not pernitrate the roof. If you shoot someone in your home with #8 bird shot within 5 - 10 yards they will drop from the impact ( Imagine a punch to the chest from God ). You will ultimately break some bones and rupture organs from the impact. Personally the rounds in my home defense shotgun consist of 1st and 2nd #8 bird shot and the rest are 00 Buck.
I appreciate these videos from you guys. As a long time firearm owner this seams like common sense to me, but with all the new gun owners out there who may not know someone with a broad understanding of firearms they may not know this and hopefully someone out there just changed out there home defense load.
We have 00 loaded at the moment, but at our intended engagement range, 12-13 feet, i can understand arguments for smaller buckshot, or even smaller loads, such as #5 or #6...birdshot would probably work okay at that distance, but even a little heavier would ease my mind...we are running a coach gun, hopefully the first shell induces the desired result...there is backup on hand, but again, hopefully not needed...
Love the videos. Glad u said something about distance. But I feel no one in there right mind would say that even 8 shot out out of 12 gauge is not lethal. Take a pumpkin or watermelon at 5 to yards with a full choke. Like the last guy said. Ur gonna need a clean up isle 5
I would disagree with your conclusion, at home defense distances bird shot works just fine for stopping a threat within the home. Your argument about mass is mute if the birdshot shell has the same weight of shot, when we are talking short home defense distances. If you need to reach out and touch something and you are loaded with birdshot, let me introduce you to the tried and true "cut shell". Many people around this country have been using "cut shell" birdshot shells for generations to harvest deer and pigs as well as predator control and home defense. It all comes down to using what you have and knowing its limitations.
firstly, once again Caleb, that hair is on point. my uncle carrys a charter arms .38 hammerless revolver loaded with hollow point and he swears by it. at home he has a remington 870 with a wide beam flashlight loaded with "Gatekeeper" expanding solid copper slugs. apparently they expand to the size of a silver dollar when they hit anything which is kinda brutal. they also dump all their energy when they hit anything so drywall will take the bite out of em.
Birdshot, while not ideal, can be effective enough, if three conditions are met: 1) close range (20 feet or less), 2) fired out of a choked barrel, and 3) you can quickly put multiple shots into the perp if he does not stop or retreat.
@@gregb6469 at 21 feet/7yds an open cylinder gun can have a pattern from 6-10", which makes face shots a very real option. A blast of no6 high brass to the face at 7yds....ouch. All depends on the situation.
Respectfully, I've investigated and witnessed shotgun incidents with birdshot and in my opinion choke size is irrelevant at 10 yards and under. Center mass, head or groin the recipient is going to need assistance to carry on to the ER or morgue. The wounds are beyond description.
I personally believe anything out of a 12 gauge is more than enough for home defense(its basically a nfa exempt destructive device). It's once your go for longer range like Leo that you have to have buckshot.
Bird shot is unreliable because if the fella is wearing vest your pellets will do nothing to them and vests are pretty easy to make at ur own house u would be surprised how easy u can make vests with scraps of plastic sheets that will stop many calibers as well as bird shot with ease so if someone into ur house might as well go with slugs no armor can effectively stop slugs yeah u will destroy ur house but better be safe with a dead house than dead and alive house
Come on guys! There are countless videos that contradict this from professional organizations while demonstrating the ballistics on a "threat" and drywall. For interior home use 00 buck shot is a horrible choice due to over penetration. If you're going to say 00 buck is a great choice, demonstrate ballistically for both attack on target and over penetration.
I have seen so many articles like this, they are clearly not written by hunters, I have seen large birdshot go right through the broadside of a roe buck, granted they are a small deer species but still the penetration would be more than enough to kill a person. The cartridge was rottweil waidmannsheil.
I think you guys left a lot on the table in this discussion and should revisit it for those not in the know of shotgun ammo. There is bird shot for dove and quail (7-8 shot), bird shot for ducks (4-2 shot) and bird shot for geese (2-#4 buck). There are also heavy loads for other game in the same shot sizes which pack a lot more energy. Any shot with in 10 yards is going to be a single mass hit. How much energy that hit has behind it is probably more dependent on powder charge than shot size. If you need to shoot at 20 yards you need larger shot to carry the energy to that range and at 30 yards even larger shot. Too much energy equals pass through and possibly endangers others.
I'm the "olden days", before slugs were commercially available, they would cut the crimp off of birdshot shells and pour the shot into a pot with melted wax, let it sit for a few minutes (to warm up the pellets) then spoon them back into the shell/cup and top off with melted wax to be very close to flush with the shell's remains top and let them cool. They did this to make slugs for deer hunting.
“Birdshot” is to general. BB, BBB, T would probably be ok in most homes. My favorite is #4 buck. Over penetration is barely worth mentioning because no round is stopped by a layer of sheetrock and a layer of siding. I have a pellet gun that will over-penetrate if you miss. As far as shotguns go for home defense, measure the length of the longest possible shot in your home (in yards or meters). Now consider that shotguns pattern out 1 inch every 3 yards (or meters for practical purposes within 50 yards). If the longest shot in your home is 30 feet (10 yards) you will have 3.3 inches of pattern. A 5.56 is about .22 inches across. Meaning the pattern is 1.53 inches in every direction larger than our larger than our small rifle round. Proper ammunition selection will cause neither to significantly over penetrate if the round hits. The difference is an AR has 30 rounds, fast reloads, and most come ready to attach a red dot sight and flashlight all in a small lightweight package. Your shotgun holds less shells, is longer, heavier, and most aren’t set up for accessories. Why someone would choose a shotgun over a semiautomatic rifles platform for home defense is beyond me. Sure a shotgun with a 3” slug generates 1000 foot pounds more energy but the 5.56 at 1,300 foot pounds is still ample and all energy carried by the projectile after leaving the target is wasted.
People need to understand they are responsible for every bullet or pellet they fire , even if they are defending themselves . So decide what is the best thing to use as home defense and take into account where and what you are residing in . In an apt or mobile home versus a house in the woods with no neighbors for miles , each one is vastly different so pick and choice what you use carefully .
I’ve always liked the idea of birdshot being the first shell in a home defense shotgun. It could be enough to drive away the petty thieves who will scramble at the first sign or resistance from a homeowner, avoids the whole mess of legal troubles that come with a self defense shooting. Then if needed, buckshot fills up the rest of the magazine for those stubborn or “heavily clothed” intruders
You should never shoot your gun to scare people off... you only shoot your gun in life threatening situations and in those instances you shoot to kill. What you are saying is a terrible idea and will get people in way more trouble, or even killed.
I personally would use a slug as my first shell, but since I care about my neighbors, I think I will follow your advice and use the babiest of birdshot first. You are very wise
I wouldn't trust that one bit. It won't avoid any of the legal trouble of a lethal round. Firearm fired = deadly force. Period. It might be less deadly in terms of outcome, but it will at best significantly wound. On a practical level, I don't love the idea of any round that is less likely to stop the threat.
Only Joe Biden tells you to shoot a warning shot with your shotgun. Sorry, but you usually get one opportunity to survive a home invasion. 00 buck shot will allow you to call the sheriff to bring a body bag for him, not you.
I beg to differ.l had a friend that was shot in the leg while goose hunting with 3" 12 ga. No 4 lead shot , from about 10 yards away, it almost blew his leg off. It took him about a year to recover,he spent 2 months in the hospital.So l think a no.4 goose load would stop a home invasion.
Longest straight distance in my home is 33 feet. That’s 11 yards. 1 ounce of 7.5 at that distance will be sending 300 + pellets into a 12 to 18 diameter circle……that will cut you in half. Most of the sight lines in my house are half that distance so 15 or so feet. That means a fist sized diameter string with over three hundred projectiles in it. That would cause substantial tissue damage. Remember they use powdered lead loads to break locks and get through doors. Any one watching this that has had a trigger happy numb nut shoot a quail or dove too close can testify what a mess birdshot will make…..a red mist and feathers.
Any projectile capable of penetrating a human attacker's body will also penetrate wall; there is no magic projectile that won't go through a wall but will incapacitate a human attacker. My thoughts: use the most effective ammo for the job. If you're trying to stop a human attacker, use human-attacker ammunition...and humans aren't birds. If you're concerned about sending a load of buckshot through your kid's wall or into a neighbor's house: 1) Home defense does not start and stop with your gun, plan ahead and use angles of fire to mitigate risk to other people; 2) Marksmanship matters. Train and practice with your gun and your ammunition until you can't miss; the only safe backstop is the bad guy. If any errant buckshot pellets leave the body of the attacker, more than likely they don't have very much energy left, so backstop penetration is probably going to be minimal...but that goes back to choosing your angles wisely.
#4 Birdshot is good IF You are in an APT or close quarters to others. Birdshot at VERY close range can be effective. It could be likened to a giant Glaser safety slug.
Garand thumb did a demonstration using birdshot out to 30 yards, and even number eight shot can be extremely effective. Once the spread opens up your entire face gets peppered: eyes nose mouth.... you don't want that to be you.
A shotgun blast is very bad news inside of any normal house. Unless you're shooting down the entire length of a hallway I don't think you'll see a round that won't work if the shot was aimed at all. For sure 00 Buck is going to be the king. But thinking defensively- for a woman sitting in the back corner of a bedroom with the kids, shotgun pointed at the door and waiting for Mr Bad Guy to come through the door- pick your poison. I'd rather she have a round that she can make follow up shots with.
@red9man2130 So you don't have any furniture in your apartment? No chairs, couches, dining room furniture? What do you think that bad guy is going to do when he catches you in the corner of his eye with a firearm, stand still and wait? If he ducks behind furniture or any other obstacles in your place, is that birdshot going to defeat that obstacle? I don't think so... I wouldn't be willing to bet on that if it was me.
@@VCBird6 Lol, it doesn't matter how well made the furniture is, it isn't going to stop 00 buck. So most people's furniture is just concealment, NOT cover by any means... Unless of course if you're crazy enough to try birdshot ;D
Truthful videos from 2 guys that have respect you don't talk over each other so much knowledge it's always a pleasure to watch your videos I have a video idea factory 5.56 ammo and barrel twist for a AR-15 that will take down Kansas sized deer and maybe some Oklahoma/Texas pigs okay guys give it your best shot
Hey guys! I love your videos and watch every one you post! I write this not to argue your point because I think you both are right and I highly respect you both as firearms experts. I offer my opinion from my experience as a Paramedic of 36 years in a very busy EMS system where gunshot wounds are commonplace. Shotgun wounds seem to almost always be devastating regardless of what shot is used and I have seen incidents where walls of very sturdy construction were easily penetrated by 00 buck killing persons trying to hide from the fire fight. My point is, I feel the decision to use birdshot for self defense should be decided based on an individual's situation and I agree, it's not "ideal", but if you live in a situation where over penetration is a real concern for example a trailer park, or an apartment where there's nothing substantial to stop rounds, maybe birdshot is best for that situation. I feel it's a risk vs benefit decision that each individual has to make based on the circumstances. That's just my two cents, for what it's worth. Please keep the great videos coming guys! Thanks!
Yup, the whole video is based on anecdote and conjecture. Makes me question all the other information they've shared in prior videos. How one believes something might work in the real world can often prove quite different when one actually perceives that something. I got my start in EMS in '91 so I'm not too far behind you, and have also worked some of the more "lively" neighborhoods in my area as both EMT and paramedic.
Former fireman EMT. I have seen a few DOAs from birdshot at close range. Even 20ga #6 shot. Most rooms around here are no more than 15', 20' is a long shot.
I simply use 00 BUCKSHOT which I have used all my professional life. In the 20 gauge No3 buckshot. 12 gauge 00 buckshot. Just comfortable with it. No4 buck would be my second choice in the 12 bore.
Have you ever thought about #1 buck? A little bigger and heavier than #4 buck a few less pellets but still more pellets than 00 and normally a heavier overall payload than 00.
I bet the wad would go deeper than the birdshot. I’ve discovered that several times when I was shooting in my old wood pile, I was kind of shocked to see that the wads penetrated up to an inch and a half into this wood.!
I appreciate your content Guy's. Keep up the good work. I tested 7 1/2 target load in a 18" pump at five yards and put a 1" hole through a piece of formica laminated to 3/4" of particle board the same shot also put a nice hole clean through a 2x6. My belief is it will work just fine. Would I load with it for self defense? Probably not.
The first gun I ever bought was a 16 gauge single shot Stevens. I still have it and about 100 rounds of #1 buckshot for it. I don't think I'll ever use up that ammo.
We have some #1 buck for our 16 gauge, an old Remington Sportsman...it sees a few shells (#6 gameload) every couple of years to check function...things are really bad if that old shotgun ever has to be used for real...but, it does work...
Birdshot should be used in environments where the danger of over-penetration is extreme, such as apartment buildings. Inside a rural home the risk is lessened which means you should err more on the side of having adequate penetration.
I keep a few birds hot shells on my HD shotgun. If there is a situation where I need to use it, it is there. Like if there is an annoying pest animal in my yard. Tube is loaded with mini shell buckshot though. The versatility of a shotgun cannot be disputed. There is a shell for every purpose you can think of.
If you're going to use a shot gun 4 the fence you should pattern your's with the distance inside your home to find out what the spread is to keep the load on target. I have considered 4 buck with a lower fps like 1100 to 1200.
#7 & #8 birdshot is fine if you can smell each other's breath. For any distances further, you are trying to bleed someone into submission, which you may as well do with a folding pocket knife if you think you have that kind of time. Cue the CCTV of the girl getting peppered in the face at 8ft by birdshot TWICE only for her to just run out of the room, able to see and open the door to do so. It's #4 birdshot and lower that's fine in general.
@@EtherFox which CCTV shot is that? If it is the one with the would be Mass shooter that was stopped in a college dorm by pepper spray and a guy wrestling him to the ground, the blast that hit the girl hit her dead in the chest. The same chest that she had heavy textbooks covering when she was hit. If it's another case I would love to see the video.
@@Valorius That's probably the one. It was enough to dissuade me from ever using birdshot as well if I had any choice in the matter. Active Self Protection also had another video with a gas station owner recently beating an armed robber to the punch and tagging him with birdshot (distance was counter to to front door) and while it did the job of convincing him he had better places to be, the results were not emphatic. I've also read anecdotes of at least one police officer forgetting to switch out jis training ammo (birdshot) for buck, tagging a suspect at close range to little effect, and getting shot and killed for his trouble. I'm not saying birdshot can't be lethal or can't incapacitate people at very close range. It *can* and there's sufficient anecdotal and empirical evidence to back that up. But IMO the margin for error is unnacceptably small for me; I would have to be living in a crowded apartment with tissue paper walls before I even remotely considered it... and if that was the case and overpen/collateral damage was that much of a real issue, I would probably just look to less-lethal or melee options at that point than trying to shoehorn a firearm into the role. I consider Magnum or Plated #4 Buck loads my minimum for "home defense where I may want to limit overpenetration" situations. But in general I actively prefer buffered #1 buckshot or FliteControl 00 Buck. To each their own, of course.
@@SaftonYT to me viability starts at high brass number 6, and goes from there. The more Rural and the fewer kids/family members you have the bigger it should get. If you live in a cabin in Alaska alone stoke that sucker up with triple 0 buck.
I always thought bird shot was good for home defense in that the shot column would still be in tact in my living room. I don't live in a big house. I have learned something here.
John Hinckley, Jr. almost killed Ronald Reagan with a .22. And that's after it went through a piece of the trim of the limo and tagged Reagan in the abdomen. And nearly killed James Brady as well. So yeah a .22 can be plenty lethal. Also yeah #6 bird shot isn't the best load for defense. But it's certainly better than nothing if those are the only shells you've got.
I’ve always had handguns for home protection. I have a .357 mag revolver on my nightstand. Recently picked up a Bullpup 12 Ga. It’s loaded with #2 shot only because Rural King didn’t have any 00. From our bedroom, down the hall to the living room is maybe 20 ft. I think I’m fine with that.
80 year old store owner Craig Cope of Norco, CA, recently used birdshot on an AR-15-armed robber and luckily got a psychological stop. I'd never want to rely on an attacker choosing to stop attacking me. Buckshot would incapacitate the attacker, not persuade him to run away. In Cope's case, the perp exclaimed melodramatically, "He shot my arm off," but he really only inflicted a superficial wound. The arm is still attached and fully functional. 00 buckshot at that distance (12-15 feet) would have removed part of his arm.
I don't think Buckshot to the arm would have been any more physically incapacitating than the birdshot was. As the perp said, "he blew my arm off." The fact that an 80 year old man with birdshot stopped a young man with an AR-15 is probably what we might call a clue.
@@Valorius Instead of condescending to me, maybe you should get a clue by simply rereading my comment. In particular, note the distinction I drew between a psychological stop and physical incapacitation. And yes, in fact buckshot will do much more physical damage to anyone or anything. It's not even debatable. Maybe educate yourself a little before trying to talk down to someone who knows what he''s talking about. If the robber had better emotional fitness, he could have stayed where he was and killed Mr Cope. Cope got lucky. Another attacker who's mentally tougher would have fought through the pain and killed him. That's all. You're dismissed.
@@rickh9396 Buckshot does not do more physical damage, any Magnum 12 gauge load does enormous damage. Some of them however pose a far less significant over penetration risk. You are simply wrong. No matter how hard you try to be right.
@@rickh9396 also tough guy, let's see some of those videos of real world gun fights where unarmored attackers fight through 12 gauge hits to kill people. You're the epitome of everything wrong with comment sections and gun forums.
Another thought is the perpetrator was struck in the arm...people need to be told a shotgun must be AIMED, just like any other firearm...the pellets don't just magically zig and zag after the bad guy...
I'm working within 5 yards, so the bird shot I already use will do the trick. If I lived in a mansion I'd probably just use a carbine. Your coffee cup should have been to your left and the rounds more centered. It clouded the sight picture. ;)
I personally like #4 Buckshot for home defense. I was taught though ballistic trainings that 00 buckshot can over penetrate in a defensive situation as can slugs. From a LEOs perspective I’ve shot about everything available out of a number of gauge shotguns and have seen the benefits and deficits of each from shot, through buckshot, slugs, and non-standard projectiles and #4 buckshot puts a decent lethal capability while limiting over penetration. That said for duty use we do use #4 and 00 buckshot as well as slugs and flechette rounds, which as a side note can penetrate NIJ 101.6 level 3A body armor, which was a big reason it was carried. Most load outs regarding shotguns, which were all 7 round Remington 870 police specials with 7 round side saddles were 2 #4 buckshot followed by 5 00 buckshot and a saddle with 5 slugs and 2 flechette rounds, though officers could load out as they so chose with some preferring all 00 or even all slugs. While most officers choose a patrol rifle over a shotgun most area departments still issue or equip both.
I have always used #4 buck also. I watched them used in combat in central America in the 80s. They were very effective. I have one #4 in the chamber, the first one out of the tube is also #4 buckshot. Then the rest are super buck 0000 shot. Which is .38 in diameter. I figure if the first two haven't stopped the intruder(s), I want something really powerful.
@@stephenedwards5038: NIJ specifies standards regarding ballistic vests with new standards coming down from time to time, as I’ve been out for a bit 101.6 may not even be the most recent. It those standards identify both threats and service periods, that is the time you can actually use a vest in service which used to be a lot longer then it is now with 101.6 dropping the time to 5 years which for a lot of departments gets pricy as that could be 5 best in a career. We would therefor have old vests on hand, which while not issues would still be used from time to time, for ride alongs, or as backstops, or just used as extra,protection. We would also take vests out of service or storage for training and shoot them with different things to both test them and reassure officers that they worked. I’ve been shot at and was thankfully wearing a vest at the time, though more thankfully wasn’t hit at all as it can hurt quite a bit. I’ve personally seen our old 3A level vests take a lot of rounds without a penetration, from standard weapons. The 12 gauge flechette rounds however sailed right through the vests like they weren’t even there, including after hitting them with over 30-40 handgun rounds, to the point that the normally 1/2” vests were maybe 3” thick just from all the crap in them. They were a scary round and the ballistic penetration through soft body armor was the reason people chose to carry them because frankly shotguns suck against body armor; while they transfer a hell of a force they told come anywhere close to getting through with vests easily taking dozens of 12 gauge 3 1/2” slugs without any signs of penetration.
@@JohnGalt-vr3lx: While mixes loading can be limited in law enforcement guns my personal wildlife shotgun is similar to yours except I have slugs at the tail end. With training or just practices skill the ammo choice becomes less important than the shot placement and use but at home I error on the side of limiting penetration to that which will be effective enough to stop a threat as it may not be me shouldering the shotgun. People can come from an expert source or level and say what is best, to me best is what works for you, what you’re comfortable with, and what you’ll actually use as you know what’s best for you. I have a friend that still uses rock salt for home defense loads and that’s on them but like bird shot some people just don’t understand some threats won’t stop until they are stopped. My uncle still believes just racking a shotgun will drive people out of his house while peeing themselves but as a trained LEO I’ve seen people that just won’t stop even after being his with chemical agents and a taser they just kept coming; I can’t speak for anyone else but I want to be able to stop the threat in the moment because all the though problems/experiments don’t mean anything when the person is looking at you in your house and doesn’t just run out. I’m glad people I know don’t see the worst in people as they can live better lives but unfortunately or fortunately I prepare for the worst and hope for the best because I’ve seen just how bad people can be. I prefer an AR ballistically and for effectiveness of fire as well as ease of use but do also have a tactical shotgun loaded; I shoot 3-gun so I still keep it staged but for years the shotgun was my go-to defensive long gun. A pump shotgun seems to, at least for the time being, be a safe choice in restrictive states and can be great defensively as long as people train as I’ve seen people, even officers, under stress forget to pump another round in just trying to keep pulling the trigger. I don’t think everyone needs massive training just practice but practice under stress, at least to me, is a must and something I do with my family because if they need to use a gun it’s going to be under stress.
@@libertarian1637 I know that feeling. We were allowed to carry only ammo issued to us. Had to use dept issued sidearm with dept issued ammo. Before they mandated you have to carry their weapon. Which was a .40 Beretta. Never liked that round and still don't. With modern tech, 9mm is as effective as 10mm while being smaller lighter and carry more rounds
There is the adage of shooting until the threat is stopped. Bird shot or even target loads are excellent for those that live in homes with family members. Knowing your target and what is beyond is a critical point in the choice of platform/ammo decision making process. A shotgun is a common choice for home defense - and my primary. I can see and attest to the reason to go for bird/target loads. I use 00 Buck in my HD Shotgun. YMMV.
Ok you guys are only considering a few factors Lethality And over penetrating What about Availability Customized or modified Ammo How about the difference between a gun fight were you are trying to stop people from entering your home And then there is an O SHIT SITUATION were your fighting with people that have all ready gotten into your home If I can only afford 2 boxes of double Odd buck and with the same amount I can buy 4 boxes of bird shot that I can modify with some wax and a crimping tool I going with the bird shot Feel me brothers Thank you for the great info But I believe there is a lot more to consider when you are choosing a home defense ammo Have a great day brothers Just saying
Because I live in an apartment and because I like my neighbors. I've got house ScatterGun loaded with #4 buckshot. Damn thing is I haven't been able to find any more for 2 years now.
Inside the house, 00-buck will definitely over penetrate your bad guy unless he is as big around as he is tall and be a serious hazard to anyone on the other side of a sheet rock or plywood wall. #4 or #2 is what I keep in my gun for inside the house. Reduced power loads of 00-Buck or slugs will penetrate deeper than Standard velocity loads as well in some testing I have done. It was quite an eye opener for me!
My target for practice is about 35 feet away. My 7 1/2 birdshot has a dinner plate sized spread. There really isn't anywhere in my house that is more than 15 feet, except for the basement hallway. I do not expect people to be wearing body armor or 3 or 4 layers of heavy clothing so, i have yet to see my light bird shot not penetrate how I would like it, with my heavier birdshot being what I actually use for home defense. I don't want to cause a lot of collateral damage or unintended casualties But, i guess some people may want to shot through 4 walls of their home and potentially into their neighbors house with 00 buckshot... just not for me. .22lr is the single most deadly round in history.
number #1 buck is what i have and will use for home defense. ... number #4 buck in 20guage was used in Vietnam and was very effective at close range 💪💪
Usualy racking a pump is deterent enough, depending on the distance and how badly hurt whatever you are you shoot at, go up in shot size, In my pump, magazine first 7 1/2 shot then buckshot
Once im out of my bedroom door my kids rooms are behind me on the sides. I have clear sight to my front door from the back end of the hall. Its 40ish ft from the far end of the hall to the door. 8 shot is my go to because I have a neighbor also in line from my front door straight out and he has kids. Ive been told by state troopers that should something happen, do what needs to be done and drag the former person into the house before calling the police. Gotta love Stand Your Ground states
At home defense distances, (highly ambiguous term), let's say ten yds or less, the effects of bird shot are pretty devastating. Ask any doctor who has tried to plug all those holes, they can't, not while keeping the patient alive. Is it optimal? No, but you'll not find any perp willing to stand in front of a charge of #6 shot and be willing to permanently damage and lose that much tissue, should they survive. Even if one blast didn't fully stop the threat, the second would, if they're still hanging around testing your mettle. Buck is better, no question, a .45 is better than .22LR, you work with what you have.
The thing is that inside of your house it’s not uncommon for there to be less than 30 ft. At that distance the shot column is very close together and hits with a lot of force. I’ve experimented with birdshot and found that 2-3/4 magnum #4 birdshot,1-1/4 oz load ( basically an old school turkey load) will blast a tennis ball sized hole through 3/4 plywood at30ft . With its energy expended most pellets will not go through 1/2 drywall placed 3 ft behind it. This seems optimal to me for my physical circumstances. Your physical circumstances and requirements may be different and with an absence of close neighbors buckshot or a rifle may be more appropriate.
You guys should've mentioned, due to the huge increase of new gun owners. Never fire buck shot or especially slugs in any choke tighter than improved cylinder. High brass, #6 or larger at short range will stop a threat. Most home invasions are unarmed. I qas unable to find buck shot. So I simply used my waterfowl loads, and I felt completely safe. As a side, when you're in a pinch. There's the old "cut shot" trick. Pre-slug days. The old guys would use a regular shotshell. You cut the plastic along the brass. Leaving just a tab untouched. When fired the entire shell effectively becomes a projectile. The housing, the wad, the shot. All contained. It's very short range, under 50 yards. But with range taken into account it makes a mighty hole, just like a slug. This is a one shot deal. Unless you have a double barrel. A cut shell will not cycle without the high possibility of hang ups, with a chance of seriously damaging your firearm. But, it's an old school method that does safely work, when understood and done correctly.
Pardon, but I'm one of those new shotgun owners (pick mine up early October). Could you explain a few words on what you mean by choke, tight choke, etc? The gun I'll be getting is the Savage Arms 320.
@@mikem.2078 Your "choke" is just that. It "constricts" the barrel. Tighter the choke, tighter the shot pattern. Buckshot, I'd go improved cylinder, or cylinder. With removable chokes, i.e. a non fixed choke barrel NEVER shoot without a choke present. You'll damage the threads. Slugs, improved cylinder. I need to back up. Degrees, from lowest to tightest Cylinder Skeet Improved cylinder Modified Full Extra full Those are the common chokes. You also have two variations on Modified. "Improved modified" and "light modified". Modified is the "go to" choke. Especially for bird hunting. IM is a tiny bit tighter, LM a tiny bit looser. I shoot improved modified on ducks. Slugs, you do not want to shoot tighter than IC, poor performance, possible damage. Buck shot, it's a toss up. All shot will spread over time/distance. How fast/close do you want it spreading? So I use IM on ducks, yes. But not during teal season of if there's a lot of woodies in close, I'll go IC. Smaller birds, close range. In a home situation I'd use cylinder to IC for buckshot. In a hunting application, coyote or one of the very few states that allow "buckshot" for deer, modified. In a defense situation, you're dealing at such close distances that you'll not get much spread. Assuming it's 12 Guage. So much more on shotguns as a defensive weapon. From heavy bird loads, to slugs, sabots, 'cut-shells', barrel length etc. There's a lot of possibilities. I love all my guns but I'd argue that nothing is more versatile than a shotgun. 1 huge downside, zero concealment.
FWIW, I just put a mix of #4 & #0 alternating for inside use, or porch & yard. I carried a 12ga.pump w/ #00 in night ops, on Marine patrols & ambushes in Vietnam, usually on point or slack. No point in the details, except that the opposition in our AOR began doing the same thing after a few encounters with us, and their 'recovery' discoveries. Tells you a bit about effectiveness of the buckshot at 5-10 meters, even further. A funny story (to me, but not ASPCA, I reckon). Years ago, we had a farm in the rurals, had chickens, ducks, geese. Periodically we lost some to predators. I got pissed when my gander went missing, with feathers a sign of the struggle. I mounted a couple of game cameras, saw a very big feral cat, raccoon, possum passing through. But the cat was way too interested in the bird enclosure, both nights, did a lot of damage to the wire. One day, a buddy and I were hanging at my shop, about 20 feet from the coop. It was early evening, when we spotted that cat snooping the fence. I told him to keep an eye on it, ran to the cabinet and grabbed my 12ga. pump short barrel, tossed it to him, and he racked it and shot. First round was 00 buck, in 3 inch magnum, which winged the cat. He had this surprised look on his face, but being a troop, racked and fired again, as the cat, panicked, actually ran towards him. I got to the door in time to see the hit, and an airborne cat, DOA. Dave turned toward me, asked "what the hell was in this damn thing?" I racked out rounds, then remembered I had loaded the gun w/ 3 inch #00, and 3 inch slugs, alternatively. So he naturally figured normal loads, shot it, and got the surprise of the decade, and a sore shoulder. I tried not to laugh, but boy did that fail.... So, remember what your loads are, my suggestion.
Mossberg 590A1, first 2 rounds are birdshot, following are 00 buckshot. First and second round is dealing with an intruder, shots 3-7 are for the firefight. If you are fighting in a urban environment overpenetration is your enemy. Buddy is Trauma Surgeon in major metropolitan area, he says #6 birdshot is his nightmare, bad guy will be dealing with lead poisoning for the rest of his life.
Excellent presentation; while I have 00 Buck loaded in my Remington 870, I have long believed the #4 and #1 Buck may be the the “optimized” 12 gauge loads, which balances effectiveness/penetration and safety/over-penetration.
I load 3 inch #4 Turkey Shot in my 12 gauge Remington 870 Police Tactical for inside "my home" defense; however, not recommended if you live in an apartment or townhome. Suggest #6 bird shot for these close quarter living situations. Pattern your shotgun with selected shot sizes and know what the construction material is within your home's interior. Know this, an armed intruder firing at you won't care about over penetration with their weapon.
I have on old Winchester Model 74 single shot with hammer. Got a five round side saddle on the stock and load with SG. Choke is quite tight so nice patterns up to thirty yards. Under ten yards, well...you can see daylight through the target. Great little gun, though.
The 9-pellet OO load is used by the military because it's designed to kill humans at 50 yards. For close-range home defense, #4 buck (or #3 if you use a 20 gauge) has ample penetration.
There are a few people who tested balistics and barriers on 12ga. 4 buck 2 3/4 was ideal. Met fbi standard of 12-18 in in ballistics gel with cloth covering. It did that with penetrating the least in barriers. Lots of 12ga loads can be excessive for home defense. Cavitation did not significantly increase for shots bigger than 4 buckshot. You want to efficiently stop the threat without risking people and property.
One of my highschool friends dad shot a man through his kitchen window with low brass bird shot because the guy was pouring sugar into his gas tank. It made the guy stop pouring the sugar but it did not hurt him too badly, most pellets penetrated just under the skin. My friend's dad said he was bleeding like a stuck pig and screaming like a little girl.
Even at 10ft bird isn't as good as buck. It may make bround beef out of a golf ball sized hole but it's only an inch or two deep. As we've seen many times before the only sure fire way to stop someone is making their organs stop working and a nasty flesh wound is just that, a flesh wound
Small apartment: #6 bird shot. Small house: BBB-#4 BIRD. House in neighborhood #3-4 buck. (#2 if you have A 20 ga chambered in 3"). Large house: #1 buck/fcw. House in country: ANYTHING.
You can always use it as a "cut shell." The whole end of the shell flies as a one piece and hits like a slug. At a range of a few feet it's all going into one big, ragged hole anyway, cut shell or not.
Sorry can't change my mind... I have a double barrel pump 12 gauge. First round is #8 birdshot second round 00 buck. 6 rounds of each in the shotgun. Always double tap!
Paul Harrel did a great presentation on this a number of years back. I would argue that anything within 10 yards with proper shot placement and knowing how your gun patterns would effectively neutralize the threat. That being said some people are fortunate enough to have large homes where a given space may be larger than 10 yards. If that is the case a follow up shot may be necessary. My perspective is limited and my experience in a home invasion is nil. Having multiple people living in my home in different parts of my home. I prioritize not over penetrating on a shot and risk harming any of them.
100% Paul's video reinforced my experience in the field testing bird shot on targets at in home distances. I found that it not great outside my house. But inside is another story.
This is a great discussion and Chris, I concur. My nickels worth:
I have shot a lot ALOT of 00 buck and Slug. I would choose neither, exclusively, for home defense due to over penetration. I agree with Paul Harrel's assessment. And let us be honest the objective here is to dissuade and convince the home invader to retreat (leave the premises) and if they die within the process then that was their choice. I am not looking to kill anyone on the onset but to get them to leave through vigorous and aggressive negoiations. Remember we never shoot to kill and keep that in mind for after the shooting scenario.
Two things with bird shot for the average home. A) a face full or chest full of shot at 10 yards or less of #2 or #6 is going to stop an attacker (it may kill them it may not, but they will rethink their choices in life for sure). We are not talking about an assault over the beach scenario here, we're talking about thievery. B) we don't have to worry about over penetration across my house and into my neighbor's home with #2 or #6. With 00 shot I would have to at least worry about loved ones down the hall etc etc. Slug rounds; yeah I would be patching a lot of holes down the street and hopefully thats all I would have to patch; likely to get sued etc etc.
It was suggested to me (many years ago) to load the following; Three, Two, One (with extended tube or 3,1,1); birdshot, 00 buck and then Slug. According to the FBI most shootings are 2.3 to 2.5 shots. The theory being if we get past the first three rounds, we may need to up the game (shot placement and back stop are now considerations at this point). This was, in my training and experience, a bit over the top but... you have to decide.
I switched to a KSG now. The KSG is easier to wield indoors; I can attach a super bright flashlight (my preferred home defense non-lethal fires weapon) and it works similarly to a Remington 870. The load out is now whatever the situation may dictate for camping or home defense. A bright strobing flashlight can be just as effective in the house as the shot gun. For those who don't train or don't want to use a gun (no worries) ; may I recommend a strong strobe flashlight and bear spray and training again and again.
Chris Dunn 10 yards with a "full choke" shotgun that has been patterned using thee inch magnum turkey loads? I doubt it. I can tell you that pattern will stay tight up to more like 15 or 20 yards before it opens up enough to be less than lethal. I would agree that 10 yards would be about it for a tube cylinder bore. Chokes make a difference and so does the velocity. Try a full choke with a three inch magnum turkey load.
@@the1sgjohns "Remember we never shoot to kill "
LOL - You are shooting someone in the face and chest with a shotgun.
@@rbm6184 you’re right. Magnum rounds make a difference and the use of a choke makes a considerable difference on how much the group opens up and at what distance. My initial comment was more a general thought. I’ve never tested this personally but I witnessed a gentleman make wax slugs using birdshot. The result was, a large mass of birdshot essentially being turned into a slug and being able to hit targets at 50 yards. In that case it didn’t increase the damage of the birdshot but only the effective range. That’s why it’s important to train and know how your gun patterns with the way you have it setup.
As someone who used to scrub trauma surgery, I can say it will turn tissue to hamburger, and it will go between ribs and into lungs. The pellets are almost impossible to get out of bones and other tissue.
Wife is an ER nurse. She had a guy come in last year after an accidental discharge. A child fired the 12 gauge at him from about 15 feet away. Luckily the victim was overweight. It carved a two inch wide, roughly 1 inch deep trench across the front of his belly. Bird shot will definitely ruin a bad guys day. The shot cup was stuck in his body as well.
Ouch.
Yes we all now that!!!!!!!!!!!!! It doesn't make it good for homedefense. This hasn't even been a conversation for years.
Well, maybe if he wasn’t overweight it’d have missed him.
@@ahumblepoet There is that.
@@colecole3352 Just saying it beats throwing the shells at them. I run 2 and 3/4 buck shot personally.
As Steve said at close range it doesn't matter. Bird shot with in 7 yards will make a hole in plywood about 2" in diameter but if you take a head shot at that range...you'll be calling Service Master for the clean up.
Criminal is gonna have a bad day.
There was an ASP video of a guy taking a shotgun blast to his arm. It was shredded, material hanging off of his arm. Pretty traumatic wound.
bird shot is lethal if its 3 yards or less, 4 yards if its fully choked. so 9-12 ft or long spear range. thats what ive seen from the plywood and meat target tests. after those ranges the shot pattern opens up to where its no longer a large mass/clump of shot. after that it loses power exponentially^2. so a shot at 5 yards can be half or a quarter of the power it was at 4 yards. a 4 inch pattern has a quarter of the power of when it was at a 2 inch pattern. a single yard could be the difference of an intruder getting shot in the chest and the shot stopping on his breast bone letting him grappling you and his heart being hamburger.
As Clint at Thunder Mountain said, "With a shotgun at close range expect some overspray."
@@dylconnaway9976 I saw that one, it was somewhere in South America with a dispute about money from purchasing food, like 1 dollar or 2.. the the woman son or husband shot the guy like 3 ft away and blew a hole in his arm,. Guy who got shot just looked at his arm in shocked.
When I was a rookie cop the first dead person I saw was a drug dealer killed by a rival drug dealer. The weapon used was a full length model 870 12 gauge and the round used to kill the guy was a high brass #4 duck load. The pellets penetrated through the chest, into the left lung and heart. He actually had enough stamina in him to drive away, but was a dead man driving.
Thug life🦍
The fact that the guy was able to drive away, though, means that he was not stopped immediately. If someone is amped up on drugs and is coming at me with a knife, it doesn't help me if he eventually dies a minute later. I need him to stop right now.
@@nopc9728 Live like a thug, fall like one.
OO buck 🎯
@@sbreheny "The fact that the guy was able to drive away, though, means that he was not stopped immediately. "
Bull. Obviously the threat was stopped and retreated. Self-DEFENSE is NOT about killing someone.
If it's all you got, and it doesn't quite work at first, send more of 'em down range! A face full of bird shot, will take the fight out of anyone!
Damn right !
Up to about 20 yds nobody’s walking through that and still coming. #4 Nitro Turkey is my birdshot of choice.
The over penetration with buck is my biggest concern, at the distance I would be defending myself in my home birdshot particularly heavy birdshot would stop a threat and pose much less risk of danger to my neighbors. I agree with your point of distance reducing it's effectiveness. However in a home those distances are much shorter than if it were elsewhere. There are many good videos giving data on the penetration and effectiveness of different loads.
Run low recoil then. At 1200 ft per second, double ougt buck will not overpenetrate. For every shot size under double-ought you use, step up 50 to 75 ft per second. If you're using a number four buck, just to get the fastest stuff you can.
Number four buckshot barely reaches the internal organs, so it's not going to overpenetrate. In my personal opinion I would not consider it for home defense because it's so unreliable for reaching internal organs. I consider number one to be the ideal buckshot load. The pellets are large enough that they always reach internal organs, and small enough that you basically don't have to worry about overpenetration at all. If you want to do a mental exercise with home defense ammunition, ask yourself if you would trust it to stop a charging feral hog. If the answer is no, you shouldn't be loading it for home defense.
Many years ago, Finn Seregard (Pretty sure I misspelled that) published an article in American Rifleman where he tested various self defense guns using simulated walls, pork ribs and hot dogs to represent the bad guy. He found that the column of shot from bird shot shells worked very well and didn't kill people in the next room. Remember that the column of shot is fairly short at 10-15 feet and acts like a solid slug until it goes through something, then it disperses. Buck shot went through multiple walls before it stopped. Remember that 00 buckshot is like a bunch of 32 caliber bullets. Finn found that even a 22 LR would go through multiple walls.
I know who you are talking about. Finn Aagaard is who you are thinking off, good writer and he knew his stuff and left us all to soon.
@@GeorgeSemel That's the name. It was a good article. He simulated the human body with hot dogs and pork ribs and tried a bunch of different guns on them. Well done, repeatable research.
The guys in this video are saying birdshot (the smaller stuff) might actually bounce off a thick door and bounce back your way?
@@mikem.2078the guys in the video are probably sponsored by high times
A friend of mine from Med school worked in a LA ER for several years. He told me the local gang members often used bird shot, and it was almost 100% fatal. Kind of hard to argue that sad experience. ... Patterns? They will open up about 1" every 3'. Across a 20' living room, that is about a 7" pattern. ....
It sound like your friend has an active imagination.
@@BatCaveOz How dare you say something so rude. He happens to be a fine physician and 2nd amendment advocate.
@@BatCaveOz sounds like you’re a dumbass. What he says is correct and gangs do in fact use whatever ammo they can get their hands on… birdshot is cheap and plentiful
Pattern will be wider faster
You're talking about a group of shooters with no regard for background/collateral damage.
Worth a mention for those who don’t know… you can find #4 buckshot as well as #4 birdshot. They are substantially different in terms of pellet size. At most home defense distances either one should work but there is a noticeable difference in the projectiles going downrange. That being said, the hardest recoiling loads I’ve ever shot excluding magnums are #4 birdshot. High brass turkey loads that have about 1 1/4 oz of shot in a 2 3/4 shell. For comparison most 2 3/4 buckshot or slugs have 1 oz of shot, and often have less brass.
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Interesting you say this, because I have my first couple loads of my 12 ga. set for #4 birdshot for better hit probability in the middle of the night when my head may be foggy. My shot will easily be inside 20 feet. My next load up is #4 buckshot and that will seal the deal. If I'm on the streets, #1 buckshot is my go to; better hit probability than double aught & just as lethal.
I'm a big fan of #4 buck. It falls right in the middle of the entire range of bird/buckshot and makes a good compromise for self-defense... not ideal for either birds OR bucks, however. AND, the majority of my "self-defense" birdshot is #4 Heavy Field loads.
We have a couple boxes 3 inch mag turkey loads, I have never tested them, 2 3/4 00 loaded right now...have a box of #4 buckshot, too...our engagement range about 12-13 feet, honestly I think #6 game load would work just fine...
I keep my home defense shotgun loaded with #4 buck. It's the best of both worlds in my opinion. ( Adequate stopping power/ less chance of over penetration.)
#4 does seem like the sweet spot, wish it was as plentiful and affordable as 00
@@jclaxton78 12 gauge reloading is real easy. You can reload it far cheaper than you can buy it. Dosnt take much at all to get into it.
I tested #4 at 5 feet into an old mattress and also a sofa. It penetrates, but not much power on the other side. Just something to keep in mind.
#4 BUCK is the “FBI load.” Lesser shot is not considered adequate.
Do not expect any shot to spread noticeably within the confines of a home.
DIY loads have issues at trial, due to the lack of reference data.
Do you have any links to court cases where a citizen was convicted for shooting an attacker only because, or primarily because, the citizen used their own handload ammunition? I'd really like to read any stories regarding that you can link.
As an Emergency Physician and having dealt with all sorts of GSW(Gun Shot Wound) victims including 12 gauge bird shot, I can say this for sure.
12 gauge bird shots are indeed effective and deadly, here I will give just one example.
Little over two years ago, a home intruder high on drugs broke into a home and was confronted by the homeowner with a 12 gauge loaded with 7.5 bird shot.
He shot the intruder into the upper leg from about 16 feet away and this is what it did.
It made a hole the size of an orange, it shattered the femur and ruptured the femoral artery, this instantly disabled the intruder and the homeowner provided aid.
Had he not provided aid, the intruder would have bled out.
When he arrived at our trauma united, two tourniquets were applied and was still bleeding and shortly after arrival went into cardiac arrest due to volume loss.
We did a mass infusion and resuscitated him, surgery took over and fixed him.
Only reason I can think of using birdshot is if I was living in an apartment and I know I have neighbors behind every wall and so don’t want to over penetration
Still better off using buck. In that scenario #4 buck inside of 15 feet.
@@Rumblestrip that is your opinion. I have personally seen an interior apartment wall stop number 6 hi brass, which will cause an absolutely Grievous wound against a human being.
In my house it would be impossible to shoot further than 20 feet. #2 or #4 birdshot would be ideal. Especially 12 gauge magnums!!
@@Valorius
I have seen tests of #4buck on walls as there is not much penatration of construction materials.
Bottom line is if it’s not good enough to penetrate a few sheets of drywall it’s not going to penetrate properly on an intruder if push comes to shove. Everyone focuses so much on the magic ammo that won’t penetrate walls but will stop a threat, it doesn’t exist. Closest thing to this magic is called shot placement. If you hit your target the rounds won’t have much energy out the other side
#4 is great idea and compromise, 00 buck is best for hunting and battle, but alot for home hallway, believe me you wont be wanting to fight much with a chest full of 4 buckshot, also great load for a .410 or Judge.
A common load for .410 is 3 pellets of 000...those pellets bigger, and just as fast as 9mm...say ouch...I must admit I not sure what the next, smaller shot for .410...is it #4...? that would work,too...
Speaking as a career fire/medic I can tell you #5 turkey shot will wreck you pretty good. It will absolutely take the fight out of someone.
Gobble gobble muthaf*****
Or ya just might really piss em off!
@@Cageey1117That's why you ALTERNATE loads for self-defense.
You don't need to kill him. Just clipping him is enough to get him to leave you alone and run. Clipping him AT ALL is better than a miss. It mentally distracts him and allows you to FOLLOW UP with a buck shot.
@@dab0331thats movie thinking. Not how things really work
@@Darthdoodoo No, that's tactical thinking. It's the same way you can use hollow points with FMJ in the same magazine. The same way you use regular rounds and TRACER rounds in the same belt on a machine gun, genius.
Starting off with birdshot will increase the chance of you hitting him before he hits you without running the risk of accidentally hitting a family member in another room in your initial state of panic. And once he's hit (or even if he's not), he'll either scram and flee for his life, or he'll get behind cover and fight to the death. Once he's behind cover and you're sure he's here to fight, then that's when you want the better penetration and more concentrated circles of buckshot.
Thanks gents, this is my favorite content from the Brownells TH-cam!
00 Buck reduced recoil 8 pellet loads seem to offer the best of everything in 12ga self defense loads. My 870 is loaded with Federal's version of this loading. Pellet Spread with a modified choke is generally about 1" per 3 feet of distance, 30ft/10yd = 10 inch pattern / 64ft/18yd = 18 inch pattern. The average adult male is 18 inches across at the shoulders. So most shotguns with most loads will deliver a full pattern on target in the 15 to 20 yard range.
Great topic Guys; this discussion has been going on since the advent of the shotgun. I've come to the conclusion that when turkeys need shooting use a turkey load. 3" Magnum turkey loads put the worse kind of hurt on a target and NO ONE ever invited a turkey inside.
We have some, i've never tested any of it...00 recoils plenty enough for the missus, 3" mag turkey load might knock her backwards...heck, it takes sweet talking to get her practice with low brass birdshot...she has fired 00, knows it will recoil, but will do what is necessary...in fact, about time to shoot a few shells again...we use a stoeger coach gun, we're big believers in simple, and more simple when hands are shaking...
I agree, it makes an excellent choice if you don't mind the extra recoil...the extra mass really has a noticable effect on the target.
The training counselor for our NRA instructor class 35 years ago suggested that number 1 buck was the optimal home defense shotgun round. More pellets, less penetration through the body than 00 buck, lighter recoil.
#4 or larger will work, at room-to-room range; but my first choice for my 12 ga, for this purpose, is #4 buck.
The smaller pellets (relative to 00 or 000) are fine for less overpenetrating, but the higher pattern density is the real star imo
Ah, a fellow #4 Buck King
Killed several deer with #4 buck, they just fell over. Dead in their ttracks.
I like the #4 buck as well. Seems like a good compromise (at least to my non-expert opinion).
@@Ash_95 No, you’re right.
For most “defensive” engagements, #4 in a home at the longest distance in the home will have the best pattern, have enough penetration to clear a torso, but not have much left after the fact, and the highest probability of hitting vitals.
Basically;
It’s the smallest pellet that will achieve desired penetration on a human, and therefore has the highest pellet count.
“What’s the smallest pellet that will do that job without being overkill?”
No 4.
@@TonyTheGoon thanks, appreciate it. Take care.
For those who can't find buckshot at Walmart, birdshot is really lethal at close range, according to my experimentation.
Tf?! 😲
I fired twelve gauge number two bird shot at three quarter inch plywood, it blew a hole right through it. Birdshot will give a clown second thoughts.
I think birdshot in the House is like a big Glaser Safety Slug or a big MagSafe round. Out of a full choke barrel, at house range, the shot is still in a tight group and has lost little of it's muzzle energy, concentrating the energy in a small area. As for BB ricochet, on a "soft target", like a human body, I think it would be minimal. So yes, birdshot, at house ranges, I think would be sufficient to stop someone. And as they say, "It beats the hell out of nothing."
Sorry fellas, this myth is not necessarily busted if used inside of a home at room width or hallway length distance. There's been too many T&Es over this and birdshot can be devastating up close, unless maybe you're up north where you wear very thick clothing in the winter time.
Steve, You brought up a great point about the lighter shot bouncing back at you, I never thought about that scenario. Thanks for the insight!
Yes, same here. If it's my wife using the shotgun then I expect the scenario would be her and the kids hunkered together in a back corner with the shotgun aimed at the bedroom door. I want her to be able to shoot through the door if the doorknob jiggles. I had not considered light shot ricochet inside the room. But she's also tiny, and 00 Buck may be too punishing on her for a follow up shot. #4 may be a better all around choice.
Yes, I work at a gun range and we don't allow birdshot or buckshot, only slugs in shotguns. The reason is, the backstop is steel plate covered in rubber chunks, and the bird/buck shot will bounce right back, while the slugs stay downrange. I've been there when someone did use buckshot, and some of it did come back, we were lucky no one got hurt!
@@deniswauchope3788 that and jokers can't stop shooting out the lights! They do that on the pistol range too... grrrr!
@@jwilsonhandmadeknives2760 it's the weight of the projectile that causes recoil. 1 1/4 oz 00 buckshot has no more recoil than 1 1/4 oz #8 birdshot given the same powder charge.
@@dougdouglass1248 given the same powder charge, yes
Great video, thank you.
Paul Harrell has a couple of great videos on this.
Most any shot shell from a 12 gage will be a good defense round especially at closer ranges
You're wrong bird shot isn't right at all
@@TikeWates Watch the Paul Harrell videos on it. He was demonstrating birdshot at home defense ranges on a meat target.
You be the judge.
I’m not advocating the use of birdshot for home defense but one thing they cover in the video but I often see left out of this age old argument is the use of heavier birdshot. It’s usually 7 or 8 shot versus buckshot. When you get up into #2 or BB it has a lot more mass than #8 shot and would, theoretically, penetrate more.
I keep my home defense shotguns loaded with 4 BUCK. It will do the job even at the longest possible ranges in my home and still not be such a danger to the neighbors.
Good compromise
So, #4 Buckshot, for the newbies, is 0.24inch diameter lead balls. So, about the size and weight of a .25ACP bullet (close enough), with a 12Gauge shell being loaded with up to 45 ( generally around 40) pellets in a 3 inch magnum shell, around 25-30 pellets in a 2.5 inch shell.
Some folks seem to think they could shrug off a .25ACP or a .22LR hit ( I’ve yet to see anyone actually volunteer), but having 25 or more of them is another thing altogether 😜
@@andrewallason4530 Yep, and depending upon the loading the shot shell velocity of #4 buck will be about 1200 to 1500 fps out of the muzzle. I do not think th .25 Browning is near that range, probably more like 700 fps. I hope to never have to unleash the buckshot on an intruding threat; but when the goal is to stop the threat, that is big medicine.
@@rooster3019 good point, Cock. Significantly higher velocity on the pellets.
@@andrewallason4530 You are mostly right. It is about the same diameter, difference is the weight. The .25 ACP is about 50 gr, a single #4 buck is about 20 gr. But again getting a swarm of 25+ of those in your direction will make a number on you.
I use cheap birdshot. I open the crimp fill the gaps with hot glue and reseal. I tested it on dead feral hogs and it was devastating. No over penetration and it exploded on entry.
I know a man that had a accidental discharge in his living room and he was using #8 bird shot. The #8 bird shot went through his drywall ceiling, through the 5/8 in plywood 2nd floor, through the carpet and padding, and through the drywall ceiling on the second floor into the attic but did not pernitrate the roof. If you shoot someone in your home with #8 bird shot within 5 - 10 yards they will drop from the impact ( Imagine a punch to the chest from God ). You will ultimately break some bones and rupture organs from the impact. Personally the rounds in my home defense shotgun consist of 1st and 2nd #8 bird shot and the rest are 00 Buck.
I appreciate these videos from you guys. As a long time firearm owner this seams like common sense to me, but with all the new gun owners out there who may not know someone with a broad understanding of firearms they may not know this and hopefully someone out there just changed out there home defense load.
We have 00 loaded at the moment, but at our intended engagement range, 12-13 feet, i can understand arguments for smaller buckshot, or even smaller loads, such as #5 or #6...birdshot would probably work okay at that distance, but even a little heavier would ease my mind...we are running a coach gun, hopefully the first shell induces the desired result...there is backup on hand, but again, hopefully not needed...
Love the videos. Glad u said something about distance. But I feel no one in there right mind would say that even 8 shot out out of 12 gauge is not lethal. Take a pumpkin or watermelon at 5 to yards with a full choke. Like the last guy said. Ur gonna need a clean up isle 5
I would disagree with your conclusion, at home defense distances bird shot works just fine for stopping a threat within the home. Your argument about mass is mute if the birdshot shell has the same weight of shot, when we are talking short home defense distances.
If you need to reach out and touch something and you are loaded with birdshot, let me introduce you to the tried and true "cut shell". Many people around this country have been using "cut shell" birdshot shells for generations to harvest deer and pigs as well as predator control and home defense.
It all comes down to using what you have and knowing its limitations.
firstly, once again Caleb, that hair is on point.
my uncle carrys a charter arms .38 hammerless revolver loaded with hollow point and he swears by it. at home he has a remington 870 with a wide beam flashlight loaded with "Gatekeeper" expanding solid copper slugs. apparently they expand to the size of a silver dollar when they hit anything which is kinda brutal. they also dump all their energy when they hit anything so drywall will take the bite out of em.
Birdshot, while not ideal, can be effective enough, if three conditions are met: 1) close range (20 feet or less), 2) fired out of a choked barrel, and 3) you can quickly put multiple shots into the perp if he does not stop or retreat.
I think a choked Barrel might work against you in some situations.
@@Valorius -- The more compact the flock of pellets is, the more damage they will do to the perp.
@@gregb6469 at 21 feet/7yds an open cylinder gun can have a pattern from 6-10", which makes face shots a very real option. A blast of no6 high brass to the face at 7yds....ouch.
All depends on the situation.
Even more so if the intruder is hit in the face. Pretty sure they could be blinded at minimum.
Respectfully, I've investigated and witnessed shotgun incidents with birdshot and in my opinion choke size is irrelevant at 10 yards and under. Center mass, head or groin the recipient is going to need assistance to carry on to the ER or morgue. The wounds are beyond description.
I’m proficient with rifles but am new to the shotgun world. Thx for sharing!
I personally believe anything out of a 12 gauge is more than enough for home defense(its basically a nfa exempt destructive device). It's once your go for longer range like Leo that you have to have buckshot.
Bird shot is unreliable because if the fella is wearing vest your pellets will do nothing to them and vests are pretty easy to make at ur own house u would be surprised how easy u can make vests with scraps of plastic sheets that will stop many calibers as well as bird shot with ease so if someone into ur house might as well go with slugs no armor can effectively stop slugs yeah u will destroy ur house but better be safe with a dead house than dead and alive house
Come on guys! There are countless videos that contradict this from professional organizations while demonstrating the ballistics on a "threat" and drywall. For interior home use 00 buck shot is a horrible choice due to over penetration. If you're going to say 00 buck is a great choice, demonstrate ballistically for both attack on target and over penetration.
I have seen so many articles like this, they are clearly not written by hunters, I have seen large birdshot go right through the broadside of a roe buck, granted they are a small deer species but still the penetration would be more than enough to kill a person. The cartridge was rottweil waidmannsheil.
"Derrrp, a good compromise is 00 Buck, which won't penetrate walls like a slug will"
I think you guys left a lot on the table in this discussion and should revisit it for those not in the know of shotgun ammo. There is bird shot for dove and quail (7-8 shot), bird shot for ducks (4-2 shot) and bird shot for geese (2-#4 buck). There are also heavy loads for other game in the same shot sizes which pack a lot more energy. Any shot with in 10 yards is going to be a single mass hit. How much energy that hit has behind it is probably more dependent on powder charge than shot size. If you need to shoot at 20 yards you need larger shot to carry the energy to that range and at 30 yards even larger shot. Too much energy equals pass through and possibly endangers others.
I'm the "olden days", before slugs were commercially available, they would cut the crimp off of birdshot shells and pour the shot into a pot with melted wax, let it sit for a few minutes (to warm up the pellets) then spoon them back into the shell/cup and top off with melted wax to be very close to flush with the shell's remains top and let them cool. They did this to make slugs for deer hunting.
Yep. Those modified birdshot rounds can be used at a great distance and still have excellent stopping power.
“Birdshot” is to general. BB, BBB, T would probably be ok in most homes. My favorite is #4 buck.
Over penetration is barely worth mentioning because no round is stopped by a layer of sheetrock and a layer of siding. I have a pellet gun that will over-penetrate if you miss.
As far as shotguns go for home defense, measure the length of the longest possible shot in your home (in yards or meters). Now consider that shotguns pattern out 1 inch every 3 yards (or meters for practical purposes within 50 yards). If the longest shot in your home is 30 feet (10 yards) you will have 3.3 inches of pattern. A 5.56 is about .22 inches across. Meaning the pattern is 1.53 inches in every direction larger than our larger than our small rifle round. Proper ammunition selection will cause neither to significantly over penetrate if the round hits.
The difference is an AR has 30 rounds, fast reloads, and most come ready to attach a red dot sight and flashlight all in a small lightweight package. Your shotgun holds less shells, is longer, heavier, and most aren’t set up for accessories.
Why someone would choose a shotgun over a semiautomatic rifles platform for home defense is beyond me. Sure a shotgun with a 3” slug generates 1000 foot pounds more energy but the 5.56 at 1,300 foot pounds is still ample and all energy carried by the projectile after leaving the target is wasted.
Advantage of the shotgun 12gauge buck is much large wounds that are very lethal with the tradeoff of requiring pump actions for maximum reliability
People need to understand they are responsible for every bullet or pellet they fire , even if they are defending themselves . So decide what is the best thing to use as home defense and take into account where and what you are residing in . In an apt or mobile home versus a house in the woods with no neighbors for miles , each one is vastly different so pick and choice what you use carefully .
I've often said measure the longest possible shot inside the home. Then test various loads on a target outdoors at the same range.
I’ve always liked the idea of birdshot being the first shell in a home defense shotgun. It could be enough to drive away the petty thieves who will scramble at the first sign or resistance from a homeowner, avoids the whole mess of legal troubles that come with a self defense shooting. Then if needed, buckshot fills up the rest of the magazine for those stubborn or “heavily clothed” intruders
You should never shoot your gun to scare people off... you only shoot your gun in life threatening situations and in those instances you shoot to kill. What you are saying is a terrible idea and will get people in way more trouble, or even killed.
I personally would use a slug as my first shell, but since I care about my neighbors, I think I will follow your advice and use the babiest of birdshot first. You are very wise
I wouldn't trust that one bit. It won't avoid any of the legal trouble of a lethal round. Firearm fired = deadly force. Period. It might be less deadly in terms of outcome, but it will at best significantly wound. On a practical level, I don't love the idea of any round that is less likely to stop the threat.
Only Joe Biden tells you to shoot a warning shot with your shotgun. Sorry, but you usually get one opportunity to survive a home invasion. 00 buck shot will allow you to call the sheriff to bring a body bag for him, not you.
I beg to differ.l had a friend that was shot in the leg while goose hunting with 3" 12 ga. No 4 lead shot , from about 10 yards away, it almost blew his leg off. It took him about a year to recover,he spent 2 months in the hospital.So l think a no.4 goose load would stop a home invasion.
Almost funny that there seems to be more accidental shootings than shootings for protection.
Oh yeah, waterfowl and turkey loads are definite hurt at in home distances...
Longest straight distance in my home is 33 feet. That’s 11 yards. 1 ounce of 7.5 at that distance will be sending 300 + pellets into a 12 to 18 diameter circle……that will cut you in half. Most of the sight lines in my house are half that distance so 15 or so feet. That means a fist sized diameter string with over three hundred projectiles in it. That would cause substantial tissue damage. Remember they use powdered lead loads to break locks and get through doors. Any one watching this that has had a trigger happy numb nut shoot a quail or dove too close can testify what a mess birdshot will make…..a red mist and feathers.
Any projectile capable of penetrating a human attacker's body will also penetrate wall; there is no magic projectile that won't go through a wall but will incapacitate a human attacker.
My thoughts: use the most effective ammo for the job. If you're trying to stop a human attacker, use human-attacker ammunition...and humans aren't birds.
If you're concerned about sending a load of buckshot through your kid's wall or into a neighbor's house:
1) Home defense does not start and stop with your gun, plan ahead and use angles of fire to mitigate risk to other people;
2) Marksmanship matters. Train and practice with your gun and your ammunition until you can't miss; the only safe backstop is the bad guy. If any errant buckshot pellets leave the body of the attacker, more than likely they don't have very much energy left, so backstop penetration is probably going to be minimal...but that goes back to choosing your angles wisely.
As always, I so appreciate your videos.
The Jeff Quinn video on this subject is all you need to see.
#4 Birdshot is good IF You are in an APT or close quarters to others. Birdshot at VERY close range can be effective. It could be likened to a giant Glaser safety slug.
Garand thumb did a demonstration using birdshot out to 30 yards, and even number eight shot can be extremely effective. Once the spread opens up your entire face gets peppered: eyes nose mouth.... you don't want that to be you.
A shotgun blast is very bad news inside of any normal house. Unless you're shooting down the entire length of a hallway I don't think you'll see a round that won't work if the shot was aimed at all. For sure 00 Buck is going to be the king. But thinking defensively- for a woman sitting in the back corner of a bedroom with the kids, shotgun pointed at the door and waiting for Mr Bad Guy to come through the door- pick your poison. I'd rather she have a round that she can make follow up shots with.
@red9man2130 So you don't have any furniture in your apartment? No chairs, couches, dining room furniture? What do you think that bad guy is going to do when he catches you in the corner of his eye with a firearm, stand still and wait? If he ducks behind furniture or any other obstacles in your place, is that birdshot going to defeat that obstacle? I don't think so... I wouldn't be willing to bet on that if it was me.
@@Jazzman-bj9fq Buy crappy IKEA furniture and turn that cover into concealment lol
@@VCBird6 Lol, it doesn't matter how well made the furniture is, it isn't going to stop 00 buck. So most people's furniture is just concealment, NOT cover by any means... Unless of course if you're crazy enough to try birdshot ;D
Truthful videos from 2 guys that have respect you don't talk over each other so much knowledge it's always a pleasure to watch your videos I have a video idea factory 5.56 ammo and barrel twist for a AR-15 that will take down Kansas sized deer and maybe some Oklahoma/Texas pigs okay guys give it your best shot
Hey guys! I love your videos and watch every one you post! I write this not to argue your point because I think you both are right and I highly respect you both as firearms experts. I offer my opinion from my experience as a Paramedic of 36 years in a very busy EMS system where gunshot wounds are commonplace. Shotgun wounds seem to almost always be devastating regardless of what shot is used and I have seen incidents where walls of very sturdy construction were easily penetrated by 00 buck killing persons trying to hide from the fire fight. My point is, I feel the decision to use birdshot for self defense should be decided based on an individual's situation and I agree, it's not "ideal", but if you live in a situation where over penetration is a real concern for example a trailer park, or an apartment where there's nothing substantial to stop rounds, maybe birdshot is best for that situation. I feel it's a risk vs benefit decision that each individual has to make based on the circumstances. That's just my two cents, for what it's worth. Please keep the great videos coming guys! Thanks!
Yup, the whole video is based on anecdote and conjecture. Makes me question all the other information they've shared in prior videos. How one believes something might work in the real world can often prove quite different when one actually perceives that something. I got my start in EMS in '91 so I'm not too far behind you, and have also worked some of the more "lively" neighborhoods in my area as both EMT and paramedic.
Former fireman EMT. I have seen a few DOAs from birdshot at close range. Even 20ga #6 shot. Most rooms around here are no more than 15', 20' is a long shot.
I simply use 00 BUCKSHOT which I have used all my professional life. In the 20 gauge No3 buckshot. 12 gauge 00 buckshot. Just comfortable with it. No4 buck would be my second choice in the 12 bore.
Have you ever thought about #1 buck?
A little bigger and heavier than #4 buck a few less pellets but still more pellets than 00 and normally a heavier overall payload than 00.
I bet the wad would go deeper than the birdshot. I’ve discovered that several times when I was shooting in my old wood pile, I was kind of shocked to see that the wads penetrated up to an inch and a half into this wood.!
I appreciate your content Guy's. Keep up the good work.
I tested 7 1/2 target load in a 18" pump at five yards and put a 1" hole through a piece of formica laminated to 3/4" of particle board the same shot also put a nice hole clean through a 2x6. My belief is it will work just fine. Would I load with it for self defense? Probably not.
People aren't made of formica and particle board
@@veldin25 Exactly my point.
In the service our security teams carried 12 gauge no. 2 buck along with a pistol
The first gun I ever bought was a 16 gauge single shot Stevens. I still have it and about 100 rounds of #1 buckshot for it. I don't think I'll ever use up that ammo.
I didn’t know there was a #1 buckshot.
We have some #1 buck for our 16 gauge, an old Remington Sportsman...it sees a few shells (#6 gameload) every couple of years to check function...things are really bad if that old shotgun ever has to be used for real...but, it does work...
@@JG54206 next size smaller than 0 buckshot...bigger than #2 buckshot...
I use #4 Buck in a 12 gauge Mossberg Security shotgun. Good compromise for buckshot and has 27 large enough pellets.
Birdshot should be used in environments where the danger of over-penetration is extreme, such as apartment buildings. Inside a rural home the risk is lessened which means you should err more on the side of having adequate penetration.
I keep a few birds hot shells on my HD shotgun. If there is a situation where I need to use it, it is there. Like if there is an annoying pest animal in my yard. Tube is loaded with mini shell buckshot though. The versatility of a shotgun cannot be disputed. There is a shell for every purpose you can think of.
If you're going to use a shot gun 4 the fence you should pattern your's with the distance inside your home to find out what the spread is to keep the load on target. I have considered 4 buck with a lower fps like 1100 to 1200.
I patterned mine with #4 buckshot for the length of the living room. In hindsight, I should probably have done it at the shooting range instead.
@@dotar9586 lol
#4 BUCK is your friend indoors. 00 great outside your home. Slugs for your neighbors yard. Standard rule of thumb I was taught from childhood.
Paul Harrell does an excellent video on this subject. To keep it simple, birdshot is fine if that's all you have.
#7 & #8 birdshot is fine if you can smell each other's breath. For any distances further, you are trying to bleed someone into submission, which you may as well do with a folding pocket knife if you think you have that kind of time. Cue the CCTV of the girl getting peppered in the face at 8ft by birdshot TWICE only for her to just run out of the room, able to see and open the door to do so.
It's #4 birdshot and lower that's fine in general.
True. But I think all of us, including Mr Harrell, will agree that if you have an option _other_ than birdshot available, you should probably take it.
@@EtherFox which CCTV shot is that? If it is the one with the would be Mass shooter that was stopped in a college dorm by pepper spray and a guy wrestling him to the ground, the blast that hit the girl hit her dead in the chest. The same chest that she had heavy textbooks covering when she was hit. If it's another case I would love to see the video.
@@Valorius That's probably the one. It was enough to dissuade me from ever using birdshot as well if I had any choice in the matter. Active Self Protection also had another video with a gas station owner recently beating an armed robber to the punch and tagging him with birdshot (distance was counter to to front door) and while it did the job of convincing him he had better places to be, the results were not emphatic. I've also read anecdotes of at least one police officer forgetting to switch out jis training ammo (birdshot) for buck, tagging a suspect at close range to little effect, and getting shot and killed for his trouble.
I'm not saying birdshot can't be lethal or can't incapacitate people at very close range. It *can* and there's sufficient anecdotal and empirical evidence to back that up. But IMO the margin for error is unnacceptably small for me; I would have to be living in a crowded apartment with tissue paper walls before I even remotely considered it... and if that was the case and overpen/collateral damage was that much of a real issue, I would probably just look to less-lethal or melee options at that point than trying to shoehorn a firearm into the role.
I consider Magnum or Plated #4 Buck loads my minimum for "home defense where I may want to limit overpenetration" situations. But in general I actively prefer buffered #1 buckshot or FliteControl 00 Buck.
To each their own, of course.
@@SaftonYT to me viability starts at high brass number 6, and goes from there. The more Rural and the fewer kids/family members you have the bigger it should get. If you live in a cabin in Alaska alone stoke that sucker up with triple 0 buck.
I always thought bird shot was good for home defense in that the shot column would still be in tact in my living room. I don't live in a big house. I have learned something here.
Great review guys, however, I don't believe anyone wants to be on the business end of any of these rounds when well placed. Thank you.
You Open YT in the morning, in Europe. You see Brownells has posted a new clip. It is a Smyth Busters video. It is going to be a good morning.
John Hinckley, Jr. almost killed Ronald Reagan with a .22. And that's after it went through a piece of the trim of the limo and tagged Reagan in the abdomen. And nearly killed James Brady as well. So yeah a .22 can be plenty lethal.
Also yeah #6 bird shot isn't the best load for defense. But it's certainly better than nothing if those are the only shells you've got.
#6, and #5, commonly used for squirrel, rabbit, critters about that size...at close range it would be pretty messy upon someone...
.22 lr is extremely lethal when shot placement is the key factor. Many assassins have used this round, especially with a silencer for decades
I’ve always had handguns for home protection. I have a .357 mag revolver on my nightstand. Recently picked up a Bullpup 12 Ga. It’s loaded with #2 shot only because Rural King didn’t have any 00. From our bedroom, down the hall to the living room is maybe 20 ft. I think I’m fine with that.
80 year old store owner Craig Cope of Norco, CA, recently used birdshot on an AR-15-armed robber and luckily got a psychological stop. I'd never want to rely on an attacker choosing to stop attacking me. Buckshot would incapacitate the attacker, not persuade him to run away.
In Cope's case, the perp exclaimed melodramatically, "He shot my arm off," but he really only inflicted a superficial wound. The arm is still attached and fully functional. 00 buckshot at that distance (12-15 feet) would have removed part of his arm.
I don't think Buckshot to the arm would have been any more physically incapacitating than the birdshot was. As the perp said, "he blew my arm off."
The fact that an 80 year old man with birdshot stopped a young man with an AR-15 is probably what we might call a clue.
@@Valorius Instead of condescending to me, maybe you should get a clue by simply rereading my comment. In particular, note the distinction I drew between a psychological stop and physical incapacitation. And yes, in fact buckshot will do much more physical damage to anyone or anything. It's not even debatable. Maybe educate yourself a little before trying to talk down to someone who knows what he''s talking about.
If the robber had better emotional fitness, he could have stayed where he was and killed Mr Cope. Cope got lucky. Another attacker who's mentally tougher would have fought through the pain and killed him.
That's all. You're dismissed.
@@rickh9396 Buckshot does not do more physical damage, any Magnum 12 gauge load does enormous damage. Some of them however pose a far less significant over penetration risk. You are simply wrong. No matter how hard you try to be right.
@@rickh9396 also tough guy, let's see some of those videos of real world gun fights where unarmored attackers fight through 12 gauge hits to kill people. You're the epitome of everything wrong with comment sections and gun forums.
Another thought is the perpetrator was struck in the arm...people need to be told a shotgun must be AIMED, just like any other firearm...the pellets don't just magically zig and zag after the bad guy...
I love Caleb's haircut 😊
Warning, even #7 shot will blast through multiple panels of drywall
Yeah, pretty much anything has a chance of cutting through drywall.
A Red Ryder can shoot through drywall.
I'm working within 5 yards, so the bird shot I already use will do the trick. If I lived in a mansion I'd probably just use a carbine. Your coffee cup should have been to your left and the rounds more centered. It clouded the sight picture. ;)
I personally like #4 Buckshot for home defense. I was taught though ballistic trainings that 00 buckshot can over penetrate in a defensive situation as can slugs. From a LEOs perspective I’ve shot about everything available out of a number of gauge shotguns and have seen the benefits and deficits of each from shot, through buckshot, slugs, and non-standard projectiles and #4 buckshot puts a decent lethal capability while limiting over penetration. That said for duty use we do use #4 and 00 buckshot as well as slugs and flechette rounds, which as a side note can penetrate NIJ 101.6 level 3A body armor, which was a big reason it was carried. Most load outs regarding shotguns, which were all 7 round Remington 870 police specials with 7 round side saddles were 2 #4 buckshot followed by 5 00 buckshot and a saddle with 5 slugs and 2 flechette rounds, though officers could load out as they so chose with some preferring all 00 or even all slugs. While most officers choose a patrol rifle over a shotgun most area departments still issue or equip both.
Was not in LE, but my homespun tests back your info. Never had any flechettes, though.
I have always used #4 buck also. I watched them used in combat in central America in the 80s. They were very effective. I have one #4 in the chamber, the first one out of the tube is also #4 buckshot. Then the rest are super buck 0000 shot. Which is .38 in diameter. I figure if the first two haven't stopped the intruder(s), I want something really powerful.
@@stephenedwards5038: NIJ specifies standards regarding ballistic vests with new standards coming down from time to time, as I’ve been out for a bit 101.6 may not even be the most recent. It those standards identify both threats and service periods, that is the time you can actually use a vest in service which used to be a lot longer then it is now with 101.6 dropping the time to 5 years which for a lot of departments gets pricy as that could be 5 best in a career. We would therefor have old vests on hand, which while not issues would still be used from time to time, for ride alongs, or as backstops, or just used as extra,protection. We would also take vests out of service or storage for training and shoot them with different things to both test them and reassure officers that they worked. I’ve been shot at and was thankfully wearing a vest at the time, though more thankfully wasn’t hit at all as it can hurt quite a bit. I’ve personally seen our old 3A level vests take a lot of rounds without a penetration, from standard weapons. The 12 gauge flechette rounds however sailed right through the vests like they weren’t even there, including after hitting them with over 30-40 handgun rounds, to the point that the normally 1/2” vests were maybe 3” thick just from all the crap in them. They were a scary round and the ballistic penetration through soft body armor was the reason people chose to carry them because frankly shotguns suck against body armor; while they transfer a hell of a force they told come anywhere close to getting through with vests easily taking dozens of 12 gauge 3 1/2” slugs without any signs of penetration.
@@JohnGalt-vr3lx: While mixes loading can be limited in law enforcement guns my personal wildlife shotgun is similar to yours except I have slugs at the tail end. With training or just practices skill the ammo choice becomes less important than the shot placement and use but at home I error on the side of limiting penetration to that which will be effective enough to stop a threat as it may not be me shouldering the shotgun. People can come from an expert source or level and say what is best, to me best is what works for you, what you’re comfortable with, and what you’ll actually use as you know what’s best for you. I have a friend that still uses rock salt for home defense loads and that’s on them but like bird shot some people just don’t understand some threats won’t stop until they are stopped. My uncle still believes just racking a shotgun will drive people out of his house while peeing themselves but as a trained LEO I’ve seen people that just won’t stop even after being his with chemical agents and a taser they just kept coming; I can’t speak for anyone else but I want to be able to stop the threat in the moment because all the though problems/experiments don’t mean anything when the person is looking at you in your house and doesn’t just run out. I’m glad people I know don’t see the worst in people as they can live better lives but unfortunately or fortunately I prepare for the worst and hope for the best because I’ve seen just how bad people can be. I prefer an AR ballistically and for effectiveness of fire as well as ease of use but do also have a tactical shotgun loaded; I shoot 3-gun so I still keep it staged but for years the shotgun was my go-to defensive long gun. A pump shotgun seems to, at least for the time being, be a safe choice in restrictive states and can be great defensively as long as people train as I’ve seen people, even officers, under stress forget to pump another round in just trying to keep pulling the trigger. I don’t think everyone needs massive training just practice but practice under stress, at least to me, is a must and something I do with my family because if they need to use a gun it’s going to be under stress.
@@libertarian1637 I know that feeling. We were allowed to carry only ammo issued to us. Had to use dept issued sidearm with dept issued ammo. Before they mandated you have to carry their weapon. Which was a .40 Beretta. Never liked that round and still don't. With modern tech, 9mm is as effective as 10mm while being smaller lighter and carry more rounds
You guys are awesome and super fucking informative! Uh, kindly excuse my language, I'm a former soldier from Brooklyn.
There is the adage of shooting until the threat is stopped.
Bird shot or even target loads are excellent for those that live in homes with family members. Knowing your target and what is beyond is a critical point in the choice of platform/ammo decision making process.
A shotgun is a common choice for home defense - and my primary.
I can see and attest to the reason to go for bird/target loads.
I use 00 Buck in my HD Shotgun. YMMV.
Ok you guys are only considering a few factors
Lethality
And over penetrating
What about
Availability
Customized or modified
Ammo
How about the difference between a gun fight were you are trying to stop people from entering your home
And then there is an
O SHIT SITUATION were your
fighting with people that have all ready gotten into your home
If I can only afford 2 boxes of double Odd buck and with the same amount I can buy 4 boxes of bird shot that I can modify with some wax and a crimping tool
I going with the bird shot
Feel me brothers
Thank you for the great info
But I believe there is a lot more to consider when you are choosing a home defense ammo
Have a great day brothers
Just saying
Because I live in an apartment and because I like my neighbors. I've got house ScatterGun loaded with #4 buckshot.
Damn thing is I haven't been able to find any more for 2 years now.
I saw 4 buck in the gun store last weekend and 1 buck at walmart so it is so things are getting better.
So don't use it
Inside the house, 00-buck will definitely over penetrate your bad guy unless he is as big around as he is tall and be a serious hazard to anyone on the other side of a sheet rock or plywood wall. #4 or #2 is what I keep in my gun for inside the house. Reduced power loads of 00-Buck or slugs will penetrate deeper than Standard velocity loads as well in some testing I have done. It was quite an eye opener for me!
My target for practice is about 35 feet away. My 7 1/2 birdshot has a dinner plate sized spread. There really isn't anywhere in my house that is more than 15 feet, except for the basement hallway. I do not expect people to be wearing body armor or 3 or 4 layers of heavy clothing so, i have yet to see my light bird shot not penetrate how I would like it, with my heavier birdshot being what I actually use for home defense. I don't want to cause a lot of collateral damage or unintended casualties But, i guess some people may want to shot through 4 walls of their home and potentially into their neighbors house with 00 buckshot... just not for me.
.22lr is the single most deadly round in history.
number #1 buck is what i have and will use for home defense. ... number #4 buck in 20guage was used in Vietnam and was very effective at close range 💪💪
Usualy racking a pump is deterent enough, depending on the distance and how badly hurt whatever you are you shoot at, go up in shot size, In my pump, magazine first 7 1/2 shot then buckshot
Once im out of my bedroom door my kids rooms are behind me on the sides. I have clear sight to my front door from the back end of the hall. Its 40ish ft from the far end of the hall to the door. 8 shot is my go to because I have a neighbor also in line from my front door straight out and he has kids. Ive been told by state troopers that should something happen, do what needs to be done and drag the former person into the house before calling the police. Gotta love Stand Your Ground states
At home defense distances, (highly ambiguous term), let's say ten yds or less, the effects of bird shot are pretty devastating. Ask any doctor who has tried to plug all those holes, they can't, not while keeping the patient alive. Is it optimal? No, but you'll not find any perp willing to stand in front of a charge of #6 shot and be willing to permanently damage and lose that much tissue, should they survive. Even if one blast didn't fully stop the threat, the second would, if they're still hanging around testing your mettle. Buck is better, no question, a .45 is better than .22LR, you work with what you have.
The thing is that inside of your house it’s not uncommon for there to be less than 30 ft. At that distance the shot column is very close together and hits with a lot of force. I’ve experimented with birdshot and found that 2-3/4 magnum #4 birdshot,1-1/4 oz load ( basically an old school turkey load) will blast a tennis ball sized hole through 3/4 plywood at30ft . With its energy expended most pellets will not go through 1/2 drywall placed 3 ft behind it. This seems optimal to me for my physical circumstances. Your physical circumstances and requirements may be different and with an absence of close neighbors buckshot or a rifle may be more appropriate.
You guys should've mentioned, due to the huge increase of new gun owners. Never fire buck shot or especially slugs in any choke tighter than improved cylinder.
High brass, #6 or larger at short range will stop a threat. Most home invasions are unarmed. I qas unable to find buck shot. So I simply used my waterfowl loads, and I felt completely safe.
As a side, when you're in a pinch. There's the old "cut shot" trick.
Pre-slug days. The old guys would use a regular shotshell. You cut the plastic along the brass. Leaving just a tab untouched. When fired the entire shell effectively becomes a projectile. The housing, the wad, the shot. All contained. It's very short range, under 50 yards. But with range taken into account it makes a mighty hole, just like a slug. This is a one shot deal. Unless you have a double barrel. A cut shell will not cycle without the high possibility of hang ups, with a chance of seriously damaging your firearm. But, it's an old school method that does safely work, when understood and done correctly.
Pardon, but I'm one of those new shotgun owners (pick mine up early October). Could you explain a few words on what you mean by choke, tight choke, etc?
The gun I'll be getting is the Savage Arms 320.
@@mikem.2078 Your "choke" is just that. It "constricts" the barrel.
Tighter the choke, tighter the shot pattern.
Buckshot, I'd go improved cylinder, or cylinder.
With removable chokes, i.e. a non fixed choke barrel NEVER shoot without a choke present. You'll damage the threads.
Slugs, improved cylinder.
I need to back up. Degrees, from lowest to tightest
Cylinder
Skeet
Improved cylinder
Modified
Full
Extra full
Those are the common chokes.
You also have two variations on
Modified. "Improved modified" and "light modified".
Modified is the "go to" choke. Especially for bird hunting. IM is a tiny bit tighter, LM a tiny bit looser.
I shoot improved modified on ducks.
Slugs, you do not want to shoot tighter than IC, poor performance, possible damage.
Buck shot, it's a toss up. All shot will spread over time/distance. How fast/close do you want it spreading?
So I use IM on ducks, yes. But not during teal season of if there's a lot of woodies in close, I'll go IC.
Smaller birds, close range.
In a home situation I'd use cylinder to IC for buckshot.
In a hunting application, coyote or one of the very few states that allow "buckshot" for deer, modified.
In a defense situation, you're dealing at such close distances that you'll not get much spread. Assuming it's 12 Guage.
So much more on shotguns as a defensive weapon. From heavy bird loads, to slugs, sabots, 'cut-shells', barrel length etc. There's a lot of possibilities. I love all my guns but I'd argue that nothing is more versatile than a shotgun. 1 huge downside, zero concealment.
A zealous prosecutor would make a big issue of using cut shells.
FWIW, I just put a mix of #4 & #0 alternating for inside use, or porch & yard. I carried a 12ga.pump w/ #00 in night ops, on Marine patrols & ambushes in Vietnam, usually on point or slack. No point in the details, except that the opposition in our AOR began doing the same thing after a few encounters with us, and their 'recovery' discoveries. Tells you a bit about effectiveness of the buckshot at 5-10 meters, even further.
A funny story (to me, but not ASPCA, I reckon). Years ago, we had a farm in the rurals, had chickens, ducks, geese. Periodically we lost some to predators. I got pissed when my gander went missing, with feathers a sign of the struggle. I mounted a couple of game cameras, saw a very big feral cat, raccoon, possum passing through. But the cat was way too interested in the bird enclosure, both nights, did a lot of damage to the wire. One day, a buddy and I were hanging at my shop, about 20 feet from the coop. It was early evening, when we spotted that cat snooping the fence. I told him to keep an eye on it, ran to the cabinet and grabbed my 12ga. pump short barrel, tossed it to him, and he racked it and shot. First round was 00 buck, in 3 inch magnum, which winged the cat. He had this surprised look on his face, but being a troop, racked and fired again, as the cat, panicked, actually ran towards him. I got to the door in time to see the hit, and an airborne cat, DOA. Dave turned toward me, asked "what the hell was in this damn thing?" I racked out rounds, then remembered I had loaded the gun w/ 3 inch #00, and 3 inch slugs, alternatively. So he naturally figured normal loads, shot it, and got the surprise of the decade, and a sore shoulder. I tried not to laugh, but boy did that fail.... So, remember what your loads are, my suggestion.
Busted, however anything is better than nothing, that's a fact.
Mossberg 590A1, first 2 rounds are birdshot, following are 00 buckshot. First and second round is dealing with an intruder, shots 3-7 are for the firefight. If you are fighting in a urban environment overpenetration is your enemy. Buddy is Trauma Surgeon in major metropolitan area, he says #6 birdshot is his nightmare, bad guy will be dealing with lead poisoning for the rest of his life.
Excellent presentation; while I have 00 Buck loaded in my Remington 870, I have long believed the #4 and #1 Buck may be the the “optimized” 12 gauge loads, which balances effectiveness/penetration and safety/over-penetration.
I load 3 inch #4 Turkey Shot in my 12 gauge Remington 870 Police Tactical for inside "my home" defense; however, not recommended if you live in an apartment or townhome. Suggest #6 bird shot for these close quarter living situations. Pattern your shotgun with selected shot sizes and know what the construction material is within your home's interior. Know this, an armed intruder firing at you won't care about over penetration with their weapon.
I have on old Winchester Model 74 single shot with hammer. Got a five round side saddle on the stock and load with SG. Choke is quite tight so nice patterns up to thirty yards. Under ten yards, well...you can see daylight through the target. Great little gun, though.
A Winchester model 74 is a .22 rifle
The 9-pellet OO load is used by the military because it's designed to kill humans at 50 yards. For close-range home defense, #4 buck (or #3 if you use a 20 gauge) has ample penetration.
If all you got is bird shot it’s still better than calling 911 or throwing your remote at them.
fact
I keep a box of remotes at my bedside.
@@hookeaires6637
😂. I guess I do too and might as well throw them as every single one has tape to hold the battery cover.
@@jerkygutts8386 same here! Tape is piling up!
There are a few people who tested balistics and barriers on 12ga. 4 buck 2 3/4 was ideal. Met fbi standard of 12-18 in in ballistics gel with cloth covering. It did that with penetrating the least in barriers. Lots of 12ga loads can be excessive for home defense. Cavitation did not significantly increase for shots bigger than 4 buckshot. You want to efficiently stop the threat without risking people and property.
I recommend using birdshot for home defense when attacked by birds.
Angry birds?
😂ha ha ha ha!
One of my highschool friends dad shot a man through his kitchen window with low brass bird shot because the guy was pouring sugar into his gas tank. It made the guy stop pouring the sugar but it did not hurt him too badly, most pellets penetrated just under the skin. My friend's dad said he was bleeding like a stuck pig and screaming like a little girl.
Even at 10ft bird isn't as good as buck. It may make bround beef out of a golf ball sized hole but it's only an inch or two deep. As we've seen many times before the only sure fire way to stop someone is making their organs stop working and a nasty flesh wound is just that, a flesh wound
Small apartment: #6 bird shot.
Small house: BBB-#4 BIRD.
House in neighborhood #3-4 buck. (#2 if you have A 20 ga chambered in 3").
Large house: #1 buck/fcw.
House in country: ANYTHING.
You can always use it as a "cut shell." The whole end of the shell flies as a one piece and hits like a slug. At a range of a few feet it's all going into one big, ragged hole anyway, cut shell or not.
Sorry can't change my mind... I have a double barrel pump 12 gauge. First round is #8 birdshot second round 00 buck. 6 rounds of each in the shotgun. Always double tap!