Smyth Busters: Is Birdshot Ammo Good for Home Defense?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- If somebody breaks into your house and attacks you, should you flip 'em the bird? Birdshot, that is. A 12 gauge shotgun is an excellent firearm for home defense, of course. And some folks say shotshells loaded with birdshot is the best home-defense ammo. What do our Smyth Busters Steve and Caleb have to say about that? Myth or solid advice? Birdshot pellets are very small. You get a lot of them in a shell, but each pellet doesn't have much mass and therefore not much penetrative force. The good news is birdshot won't over-penetrate through a wall. But you also won't get good penetration to a vital organ of an attacker that will cause them stop their attack. Worse, birdshot pellets lose energy FAST, so the greater the distance between you and an attacker, the less effective they are. Anything coming out the business end of a 12 gauge shotgun can be lethal, so birdshot is not totally ineffective. It's just not your best shotgun ammunition for self-defense. So what is? The guys recommend #1, #0, or #00 BUCKSHOT. If you're worried about overpenetration, shotgun slugs are actually far more likely to over-penetrate that than buckshot. So the myth is BUSTED: Don't use birdshot for home defense. Stick with buckshot!
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Wife is an ER nurse. She had a guy come in last year after an accidental discharge. A child fired the 12 gauge at him from about 15 feet away. Luckily the victim was overweight. It carved a two inch wide, roughly 1 inch deep trench across the front of his belly. Bird shot will definitely ruin a bad guys day. The shot cup was stuck in his body as well.
Ouch.
Yes we all now that!!!!!!!!!!!!! It doesn't make it good for homedefense. This hasn't even been a conversation for years.
Well, maybe if he wasn’t overweight it’d have missed him.
@@ahumblepoet There is that.
@@colecole3352 Just saying it beats throwing the shells at them. I run 2 and 3/4 buck shot personally.
When I was a rookie cop the first dead person I saw was a drug dealer killed by a rival drug dealer. The weapon used was a full length model 870 12 gauge and the round used to kill the guy was a high brass #4 duck load. The pellets penetrated through the chest, into the left lung and heart. He actually had enough stamina in him to drive away, but was a dead man driving.
Thug life🦍
The fact that the guy was able to drive away, though, means that he was not stopped immediately. If someone is amped up on drugs and is coming at me with a knife, it doesn't help me if he eventually dies a minute later. I need him to stop right now.
@@nopc9728 Live like a thug, fall like one.
OO buck 🎯
@@sbreheny "The fact that the guy was able to drive away, though, means that he was not stopped immediately. "
Bull. Obviously the threat was stopped and retreated. Self-DEFENSE is NOT about killing someone.
As someone who used to scrub trauma surgery, I can say it will turn tissue to hamburger, and it will go between ribs and into lungs. The pellets are almost impossible to get out of bones and other tissue.
Speaking as a career fire/medic I can tell you #5 turkey shot will wreck you pretty good. It will absolutely take the fight out of someone.
Gobble gobble muthaf*****
Or ya just might really piss em off!
@@Cageey1117That's why you ALTERNATE loads for self-defense.
You don't need to kill him. Just clipping him is enough to get him to leave you alone and run. Clipping him AT ALL is better than a miss. It mentally distracts him and allows you to FOLLOW UP with a buck shot.
@@dab0331thats movie thinking. Not how things really work
@@Darthdoodoo No, that's tactical thinking. It's the same way you can use hollow points with FMJ in the same magazine. The same way you use regular rounds and TRACER rounds in the same belt on a machine gun, genius.
Starting off with birdshot will increase the chance of you hitting him before he hits you without running the risk of accidentally hitting a family member in another room in your initial state of panic. And once he's hit (or even if he's not), he'll either scram and flee for his life, or he'll get behind cover and fight to the death. Once he's behind cover and you're sure he's here to fight, then that's when you want the better penetration and more concentrated circles of buckshot.
A friend of mine from Med school worked in a LA ER for several years. He told me the local gang members often used bird shot, and it was almost 100% fatal. Kind of hard to argue that sad experience. ... Patterns? They will open up about 1" every 3'. Across a 20' living room, that is about a 7" pattern. ....
It sound like your friend has an active imagination.
@@BatCaveOz How dare you say something so rude. He happens to be a fine physician and 2nd amendment advocate.
@@BatCaveOz sounds like you’re a dumbass. What he says is correct and gangs do in fact use whatever ammo they can get their hands on… birdshot is cheap and plentiful
Pattern will be wider faster
You're talking about a group of shooters with no regard for background/collateral damage.
For those who can't find buckshot at Walmart, birdshot is really lethal at close range, according to my experimentation.
Tf?! 😲
I fired twelve gauge number two bird shot at three quarter inch plywood, it blew a hole right through it. Birdshot will give a clown second thoughts.
I keep my home defense shotgun loaded with #4 buck. It's the best of both worlds in my opinion. ( Adequate stopping power/ less chance of over penetration.)
#4 does seem like the sweet spot, wish it was as plentiful and affordable as 00
@@jclaxton78 12 gauge reloading is real easy. You can reload it far cheaper than you can buy it. Dosnt take much at all to get into it.
I tested #4 at 5 feet into an old mattress and also a sofa. It penetrates, but not much power on the other side. Just something to keep in mind.
#4 BUCK is the “FBI load.” Lesser shot is not considered adequate.
Do not expect any shot to spread noticeably within the confines of a home.
DIY loads have issues at trial, due to the lack of reference data.
Do you have any links to court cases where a citizen was convicted for shooting an attacker only because, or primarily because, the citizen used their own handload ammunition? I'd really like to read any stories regarding that you can link.
Paul Harrel did a great presentation on this a number of years back. I would argue that anything within 10 yards with proper shot placement and knowing how your gun patterns would effectively neutralize the threat. That being said some people are fortunate enough to have large homes where a given space may be larger than 10 yards. If that is the case a follow up shot may be necessary. My perspective is limited and my experience in a home invasion is nil. Having multiple people living in my home in different parts of my home. I prioritize not over penetrating on a shot and risk harming any of them.
100% Paul's video reinforced my experience in the field testing bird shot on targets at in home distances. I found that it not great outside my house. But inside is another story.
This is a great discussion and Chris, I concur. My nickels worth:
I have shot a lot ALOT of 00 buck and Slug. I would choose neither, exclusively, for home defense due to over penetration. I agree with Paul Harrel's assessment. And let us be honest the objective here is to dissuade and convince the home invader to retreat (leave the premises) and if they die within the process then that was their choice. I am not looking to kill anyone on the onset but to get them to leave through vigorous and aggressive negoiations. Remember we never shoot to kill and keep that in mind for after the shooting scenario.
Two things with bird shot for the average home. A) a face full or chest full of shot at 10 yards or less of #2 or #6 is going to stop an attacker (it may kill them it may not, but they will rethink their choices in life for sure). We are not talking about an assault over the beach scenario here, we're talking about thievery. B) we don't have to worry about over penetration across my house and into my neighbor's home with #2 or #6. With 00 shot I would have to at least worry about loved ones down the hall etc etc. Slug rounds; yeah I would be patching a lot of holes down the street and hopefully thats all I would have to patch; likely to get sued etc etc.
It was suggested to me (many years ago) to load the following; Three, Two, One (with extended tube or 3,1,1); birdshot, 00 buck and then Slug. According to the FBI most shootings are 2.3 to 2.5 shots. The theory being if we get past the first three rounds, we may need to up the game (shot placement and back stop are now considerations at this point). This was, in my training and experience, a bit over the top but... you have to decide.
I switched to a KSG now. The KSG is easier to wield indoors; I can attach a super bright flashlight (my preferred home defense non-lethal fires weapon) and it works similarly to a Remington 870. The load out is now whatever the situation may dictate for camping or home defense. A bright strobing flashlight can be just as effective in the house as the shot gun. For those who don't train or don't want to use a gun (no worries) ; may I recommend a strong strobe flashlight and bear spray and training again and again.
Chris Dunn 10 yards with a "full choke" shotgun that has been patterned using thee inch magnum turkey loads? I doubt it. I can tell you that pattern will stay tight up to more like 15 or 20 yards before it opens up enough to be less than lethal. I would agree that 10 yards would be about it for a tube cylinder bore. Chokes make a difference and so does the velocity. Try a full choke with a three inch magnum turkey load.
@@the1sgjohns "Remember we never shoot to kill "
LOL - You are shooting someone in the face and chest with a shotgun.
@@rbm6184 you’re right. Magnum rounds make a difference and the use of a choke makes a considerable difference on how much the group opens up and at what distance. My initial comment was more a general thought. I’ve never tested this personally but I witnessed a gentleman make wax slugs using birdshot. The result was, a large mass of birdshot essentially being turned into a slug and being able to hit targets at 50 yards. In that case it didn’t increase the damage of the birdshot but only the effective range. That’s why it’s important to train and know how your gun patterns with the way you have it setup.
Sorry fellas, this myth is not necessarily busted if used inside of a home at room width or hallway length distance. There's been too many T&Es over this and birdshot can be devastating up close, unless maybe you're up north where you wear very thick clothing in the winter time.
I’m not advocating the use of birdshot for home defense but one thing they cover in the video but I often see left out of this age old argument is the use of heavier birdshot. It’s usually 7 or 8 shot versus buckshot. When you get up into #2 or BB it has a lot more mass than #8 shot and would, theoretically, penetrate more.
I think birdshot in the House is like a big Glaser Safety Slug or a big MagSafe round. Out of a full choke barrel, at house range, the shot is still in a tight group and has lost little of it's muzzle energy, concentrating the energy in a small area. As for BB ricochet, on a "soft target", like a human body, I think it would be minimal. So yes, birdshot, at house ranges, I think would be sufficient to stop someone. And as they say, "It beats the hell out of nothing."
The training counselor for our NRA instructor class 35 years ago suggested that number 1 buck was the optimal home defense shotgun round. More pellets, less penetration through the body than 00 buck, lighter recoil.
Birdshot, while not ideal, can be effective enough, if three conditions are met: 1) close range (20 feet or less), 2) fired out of a choked barrel, and 3) you can quickly put multiple shots into the perp if he does not stop or retreat.
I think a choked Barrel might work against you in some situations.
@@Valorius -- The more compact the flock of pellets is, the more damage they will do to the perp.
@@gregb6469 at 21 feet/7yds an open cylinder gun can have a pattern from 6-10", which makes face shots a very real option. A blast of no6 high brass to the face at 7yds....ouch.
All depends on the situation.
Even more so if the intruder is hit in the face. Pretty sure they could be blinded at minimum.
Respectfully, I've investigated and witnessed shotgun incidents with birdshot and in my opinion choke size is irrelevant at 10 yards and under. Center mass, head or groin the recipient is going to need assistance to carry on to the ER or morgue. The wounds are beyond description.
As an Emergency Physician and having dealt with all sorts of GSW(Gun Shot Wound) victims including 12 gauge bird shot, I can say this for sure.
12 gauge bird shots are indeed effective and deadly, here I will give just one example.
Little over two years ago, a home intruder high on drugs broke into a home and was confronted by the homeowner with a 12 gauge loaded with 7.5 bird shot.
He shot the intruder into the upper leg from about 16 feet away and this is what it did.
It made a hole the size of an orange, it shattered the femur and ruptured the femoral artery, this instantly disabled the intruder and the homeowner provided aid.
Had he not provided aid, the intruder would have bled out.
When he arrived at our trauma united, two tourniquets were applied and was still bleeding and shortly after arrival went into cardiac arrest due to volume loss.
We did a mass infusion and resuscitated him, surgery took over and fixed him.
As always, I so appreciate your videos.
I simply use 00 BUCKSHOT which I have used all my professional life. In the 20 gauge No3 buckshot. 12 gauge 00 buckshot. Just comfortable with it. No4 buck would be my second choice in the 12 bore.
Have you ever thought about #1 buck?
A little bigger and heavier than #4 buck a few less pellets but still more pellets than 00 and normally a heavier overall payload than 00.
Steve, You brought up a great point about the lighter shot bouncing back at you, I never thought about that scenario. Thanks for the insight!
Yes, same here. If it's my wife using the shotgun then I expect the scenario would be her and the kids hunkered together in a back corner with the shotgun aimed at the bedroom door. I want her to be able to shoot through the door if the doorknob jiggles. I had not considered light shot ricochet inside the room. But she's also tiny, and 00 Buck may be too punishing on her for a follow up shot. #4 may be a better all around choice.
Yes, I work at a gun range and we don't allow birdshot or buckshot, only slugs in shotguns. The reason is, the backstop is steel plate covered in rubber chunks, and the bird/buck shot will bounce right back, while the slugs stay downrange. I've been there when someone did use buckshot, and some of it did come back, we were lucky no one got hurt!
@@deniswauchope3788 that and jokers can't stop shooting out the lights! They do that on the pistol range too... grrrr!
@@jwilsonhandmadeknives2760 it's the weight of the projectile that causes recoil. 1 1/4 oz 00 buckshot has no more recoil than 1 1/4 oz #8 birdshot given the same powder charge.
@@dougdouglass1248 given the same powder charge, yes
I personally believe anything out of a 12 gauge is more than enough for home defense(its basically a nfa exempt destructive device). It's once your go for longer range like Leo that you have to have buckshot.
Bird shot is unreliable because if the fella is wearing vest your pellets will do nothing to them and vests are pretty easy to make at ur own house u would be surprised how easy u can make vests with scraps of plastic sheets that will stop many calibers as well as bird shot with ease so if someone into ur house might as well go with slugs no armor can effectively stop slugs yeah u will destroy ur house but better be safe with a dead house than dead and alive house
I would disagree with your conclusion, at home defense distances bird shot works just fine for stopping a threat within the home. Your argument about mass is mute if the birdshot shell has the same weight of shot, when we are talking short home defense distances.
If you need to reach out and touch something and you are loaded with birdshot, let me introduce you to the tried and true "cut shell". Many people around this country have been using "cut shell" birdshot shells for generations to harvest deer and pigs as well as predator control and home defense.
It all comes down to using what you have and knowing its limitations.
John Hinckley, Jr. almost killed Ronald Reagan with a .22. And that's after it went through a piece of the trim of the limo and tagged Reagan in the abdomen. And nearly killed James Brady as well. So yeah a .22 can be plenty lethal.
Also yeah #6 bird shot isn't the best load for defense. But it's certainly better than nothing if those are the only shells you've got.
#6, and #5, commonly used for squirrel, rabbit, critters about that size...at close range it would be pretty messy upon someone...
.22 lr is extremely lethal when shot placement is the key factor. Many assassins have used this round, especially with a silencer for decades
I’m proficient with rifles but am new to the shotgun world. Thx for sharing!
Truthful videos from 2 guys that have respect you don't talk over each other so much knowledge it's always a pleasure to watch your videos I have a video idea factory 5.56 ammo and barrel twist for a AR-15 that will take down Kansas sized deer and maybe some Oklahoma/Texas pigs okay guys give it your best shot
I’ve always liked the idea of birdshot being the first shell in a home defense shotgun. It could be enough to drive away the petty thieves who will scramble at the first sign or resistance from a homeowner, avoids the whole mess of legal troubles that come with a self defense shooting. Then if needed, buckshot fills up the rest of the magazine for those stubborn or “heavily clothed” intruders
You should never shoot your gun to scare people off... you only shoot your gun in life threatening situations and in those instances you shoot to kill. What you are saying is a terrible idea and will get people in way more trouble, or even killed.
I personally would use a slug as my first shell, but since I care about my neighbors, I think I will follow your advice and use the babiest of birdshot first. You are very wise
I wouldn't trust that one bit. It won't avoid any of the legal trouble of a lethal round. Firearm fired = deadly force. Period. It might be less deadly in terms of outcome, but it will at best significantly wound. On a practical level, I don't love the idea of any round that is less likely to stop the threat.
Only Joe Biden tells you to shoot a warning shot with your shotgun. Sorry, but you usually get one opportunity to survive a home invasion. 00 buck shot will allow you to call the sheriff to bring a body bag for him, not you.
Busted, however anything is better than nothing, that's a fact.
I don't remember the distance, but I cam across an aggressive water heater out in the desert once. I shot it with 7.5 shot at pretty close range and it put a nice hole in it. I back up just a bit and shot again and it had little impact.
I personally like #4 Buckshot for home defense. I was taught though ballistic trainings that 00 buckshot can over penetrate in a defensive situation as can slugs. From a LEOs perspective I’ve shot about everything available out of a number of gauge shotguns and have seen the benefits and deficits of each from shot, through buckshot, slugs, and non-standard projectiles and #4 buckshot puts a decent lethal capability while limiting over penetration. That said for duty use we do use #4 and 00 buckshot as well as slugs and flechette rounds, which as a side note can penetrate NIJ 101.6 level 3A body armor, which was a big reason it was carried. Most load outs regarding shotguns, which were all 7 round Remington 870 police specials with 7 round side saddles were 2 #4 buckshot followed by 5 00 buckshot and a saddle with 5 slugs and 2 flechette rounds, though officers could load out as they so chose with some preferring all 00 or even all slugs. While most officers choose a patrol rifle over a shotgun most area departments still issue or equip both.
Was not in LE, but my homespun tests back your info. Never had any flechettes, though.
I have always used #4 buck also. I watched them used in combat in central America in the 80s. They were very effective. I have one #4 in the chamber, the first one out of the tube is also #4 buckshot. Then the rest are super buck 0000 shot. Which is .38 in diameter. I figure if the first two haven't stopped the intruder(s), I want something really powerful.
@@stephenedwards5038: NIJ specifies standards regarding ballistic vests with new standards coming down from time to time, as I’ve been out for a bit 101.6 may not even be the most recent. It those standards identify both threats and service periods, that is the time you can actually use a vest in service which used to be a lot longer then it is now with 101.6 dropping the time to 5 years which for a lot of departments gets pricy as that could be 5 best in a career. We would therefor have old vests on hand, which while not issues would still be used from time to time, for ride alongs, or as backstops, or just used as extra,protection. We would also take vests out of service or storage for training and shoot them with different things to both test them and reassure officers that they worked. I’ve been shot at and was thankfully wearing a vest at the time, though more thankfully wasn’t hit at all as it can hurt quite a bit. I’ve personally seen our old 3A level vests take a lot of rounds without a penetration, from standard weapons. The 12 gauge flechette rounds however sailed right through the vests like they weren’t even there, including after hitting them with over 30-40 handgun rounds, to the point that the normally 1/2” vests were maybe 3” thick just from all the crap in them. They were a scary round and the ballistic penetration through soft body armor was the reason people chose to carry them because frankly shotguns suck against body armor; while they transfer a hell of a force they told come anywhere close to getting through with vests easily taking dozens of 12 gauge 3 1/2” slugs without any signs of penetration.
@@JohnGalt-vr3lx: While mixes loading can be limited in law enforcement guns my personal wildlife shotgun is similar to yours except I have slugs at the tail end. With training or just practices skill the ammo choice becomes less important than the shot placement and use but at home I error on the side of limiting penetration to that which will be effective enough to stop a threat as it may not be me shouldering the shotgun. People can come from an expert source or level and say what is best, to me best is what works for you, what you’re comfortable with, and what you’ll actually use as you know what’s best for you. I have a friend that still uses rock salt for home defense loads and that’s on them but like bird shot some people just don’t understand some threats won’t stop until they are stopped. My uncle still believes just racking a shotgun will drive people out of his house while peeing themselves but as a trained LEO I’ve seen people that just won’t stop even after being his with chemical agents and a taser they just kept coming; I can’t speak for anyone else but I want to be able to stop the threat in the moment because all the though problems/experiments don’t mean anything when the person is looking at you in your house and doesn’t just run out. I’m glad people I know don’t see the worst in people as they can live better lives but unfortunately or fortunately I prepare for the worst and hope for the best because I’ve seen just how bad people can be. I prefer an AR ballistically and for effectiveness of fire as well as ease of use but do also have a tactical shotgun loaded; I shoot 3-gun so I still keep it staged but for years the shotgun was my go-to defensive long gun. A pump shotgun seems to, at least for the time being, be a safe choice in restrictive states and can be great defensively as long as people train as I’ve seen people, even officers, under stress forget to pump another round in just trying to keep pulling the trigger. I don’t think everyone needs massive training just practice but practice under stress, at least to me, is a must and something I do with my family because if they need to use a gun it’s going to be under stress.
@@libertarian1637 I know that feeling. We were allowed to carry only ammo issued to us. Had to use dept issued sidearm with dept issued ammo. Before they mandated you have to carry their weapon. Which was a .40 Beretta. Never liked that round and still don't. With modern tech, 9mm is as effective as 10mm while being smaller lighter and carry more rounds
I have a "one year wonder" Mossberg 5500 MKII,, it's a fabulous 12 gauge semi-auto bird gun, but jams up on buckshot, slugs, and anything heavy. That's my main shotgun (other than the double barrel and one shots) so that's what I use for home defense. I'm pretty sure 5 shots of #6 placed on target will be sufficient. I've cut off many 2" tree limbs in my yard 20 feet up with 5 shots of bird shot, the fastest, funnest, tree pruner.
I appreciate your content Guy's. Keep up the good work.
I tested 7 1/2 target load in a 18" pump at five yards and put a 1" hole through a piece of formica laminated to 3/4" of particle board the same shot also put a nice hole clean through a 2x6. My belief is it will work just fine. Would I load with it for self defense? Probably not.
People aren't made of formica and particle board
@@veldin25 Exactly my point.
#4 buckshot mixed with BB sized shot was determined to be a good mix. The police chief of Shanghi, Fairbain determind it was a great comprimise load for the shotgun.
Would love to see this tested on ballistic gell at 10 feet covered by clothing.
I don't remember if he did it with heavy clothing but brass fetcher did some gel tests of bird shot
@@JohnSmith-fp9li Thank you
@@JohnSmith-fp9li I think I saw a couple of those videos...they all looked painful...
@@PetuniaIii-pd1ww on that I completely agree.
@@JohnSmith-fp9li you all judge which is better
That's a good way to show ur kids how much more lethal a real gun is than a red Ryder for safety teachings too (pumpkin or watermelon). Whether it's a .22, 20 gauge, or whatever. Even without them shooting it. It gets the point across of what damage can be done if not handled properly.
At home defense distances, (highly ambiguous term), let's say ten yds or less, the effects of bird shot are pretty devastating. Ask any doctor who has tried to plug all those holes, they can't, not while keeping the patient alive. Is it optimal? No, but you'll not find any perp willing to stand in front of a charge of #6 shot and be willing to permanently damage and lose that much tissue, should they survive. Even if one blast didn't fully stop the threat, the second would, if they're still hanging around testing your mettle. Buck is better, no question, a .45 is better than .22LR, you work with what you have.
12ga 00 buckshot is the medicine recipe for home defense, if anyone is telling you the otherwise, and then they have no clue about the firearms, or just they pretend to be an expert.
I load my shotgun home defense with 00 buckshot and slugs, I load it in this order: 00 buckshot, 00 buckshot, slug, 00 buckshot, 00 buckshot, slug, the reason of this particular order is that if the two of the initial 00 buckshots fail to neutralize the threat, and then comes the slug as a finisher.
Anyhow, that's my dogma.
My target for practice is about 35 feet away. My 7 1/2 birdshot has a dinner plate sized spread. There really isn't anywhere in my house that is more than 15 feet, except for the basement hallway. I do not expect people to be wearing body armor or 3 or 4 layers of heavy clothing so, i have yet to see my light bird shot not penetrate how I would like it, with my heavier birdshot being what I actually use for home defense. I don't want to cause a lot of collateral damage or unintended casualties But, i guess some people may want to shot through 4 walls of their home and potentially into their neighbors house with 00 buckshot... just not for me.
.22lr is the single most deadly round in history.
i think smaller then double buckshot is optimal giving you a good size per pellet but also alot more pellets my fetter 00 buck is only 9 pellets but with a slightly smaller one i can get 16 per shell and some ive heard hold 26 slightly smaller pellets its still a decently sized pellet but they fit more inside so you get more
#4 birdshot to the face will take the fight out of most bad guys, even if they're wearing a helmet.
But generally not a great idea.
#4 buck would do the same a little better lol
Yeah just shoot em in the face, it's so easy
An 1 1/8 oz load of #4 bird shot will be devastating out to 30' ft even out of a cylinder bore. Test it for yourself. See Paul Harrel's channel.
Neither #4 bird or buck are easy to find, and both tend to be rather pricey.
The 9-pellet OO load is used by the military because it's designed to kill humans at 50 yards. For close-range home defense, #4 buck (or #3 if you use a 20 gauge) has ample penetration.
I live in a remote area so overpenetration is not a problem. my mossberg 500 cylinder bore has 2 # 4 buck followed by 4 00.
5 yards it doesn't matter, birdshot is extremely lethal and will remove limbs. The great part about shotguns is your ability to just mix rounds, right? My first shot in HD shottie is #6 steel. If someone wants to keep coming the next 6 are #00 and the last is a rifled slug.
I figure if I get to the slug I need it lol
Birdshot can absolutely be very effective as a home self defense round. If you know how to properly do a cut shell that is. 👊🏻💥 But only if you have no other option. Otherwise, use 00 buck.
(Edit) I have two extremely common and absolutely legal shotguns with regular ammunition. I use basic home defense in case any sensitive and triggered TH-cam viewers read my comments.
⬆THIS is a plan that I can get behind ⬆
Nothing “barely” about it, it’s either legal or not
Many many many manufacturers make 18in barrel length shotguns.
There’s nothing special or unique about your legal length barrels.
@@gunsforevery1 no kidding Capt Obvious? Great detective work!
@The Roller
What’s the point of trying to act like some billy badass with your “barley legal” shotguns? Oh wow you use birdshot and 00 buck! Better watch out for you and your “barley legal” common shotguns.
Please provide some testing, real world scenario, or evidence as to the ineffectiveness of "bird shot". If the distance is a factor you should have time for a follow up shot or 7.
Within the distances home defense shooting occur I don't think it matters much as tests elsewhere have shown. All of that mass and energy is going into a 2in diameter location. Use what you have and it will be effective.
Excellent presentation; while I have 00 Buck loaded in my Remington 870, I have long believed the #4 and #1 Buck may be the the “optimized” 12 gauge loads, which balances effectiveness/penetration and safety/over-penetration.
I have found that in my case, # 4 BUCK is a reasonably good choice...
I live in an apartment and the longest part of it is my 1 hallway and that's around 8 yards. If I stretched it to the max as in wall to wall and over estimate it then max distance is around 11yards. I load a mix between slugs and birdshot and don't plan on changing anytime soon.
It's amazing to me how anyone who knows anything about firearms, shotguns, or ballistics, would think that birdshot is better than buckshot for home defense.
Refer you to Doc Neil right up above...
You are addressing two separate issues. Buckshot has higher lethality by comparison. Birdshot is less likely to kill family members as it passes through walls. And I've never found a human willing to be the target of birdshot.
The guy on the right is literally everyone’s younger version of their great great grandfather
I have on old Winchester Model 74 single shot with hammer. Got a five round side saddle on the stock and load with SG. Choke is quite tight so nice patterns up to thirty yards. Under ten yards, well...you can see daylight through the target. Great little gun, though.
A Winchester model 74 is a .22 rifle
I tested #7, #4, 00, slugs on large pumpkins. I was curious to see the results.
#7 made a deep depression, #4 obliterated it leaving very little, 00 split it in half and slugs went through leaving fist size holes in the back.
I used different pumpkins.
I like those doom shells... Slug, buck, bird shots in one.
You can always use it as a "cut shell." The whole end of the shell flies as a one piece and hits like a slug. At a range of a few feet it's all going into one big, ragged hole anyway, cut shell or not.
Small apartment: #6 bird shot.
Small house: BBB-#4 BIRD.
House in neighborhood #3-4 buck. (#2 if you have A 20 ga chambered in 3").
Large house: #1 buck/fcw.
House in country: ANYTHING.
I’m thinking the hole in the back of the target will tell the doctor a lot about birdshot vs buckshot at 10 feet.
Perhaps I exaggerate a bit, but .36 caliber shot will go a bit deeper into a target than birdshot, even if the pattern is similar.
Double 00 is great to have for personal defense but if it gets all sold out at the store buy what you can find. Number 6 shot is good to have.
The late great Gun Blaster set the record straight Bird Shot is a true man stopper inside of 15 feet.
The thing is that inside of your house it’s not uncommon for there to be less than 30 ft. At that distance the shot column is very close together and hits with a lot of force. I’ve experimented with birdshot and found that 2-3/4 magnum #4 birdshot,1-1/4 oz load ( basically an old school turkey load) will blast a tennis ball sized hole through 3/4 plywood at30ft . With its energy expended most pellets will not go through 1/2 drywall placed 3 ft behind it. This seems optimal to me for my physical circumstances. Your physical circumstances and requirements may be different and with an absence of close neighbors buckshot or a rifle may be more appropriate.
I would think as big a consideration isn't the penetration into the human you're targeting but the wall penetration in the background, especially in an apartment or prefab house or trailer.
Once im out of my bedroom door my kids rooms are behind me on the sides. I have clear sight to my front door from the back end of the hall. Its 40ish ft from the far end of the hall to the door. 8 shot is my go to because I have a neighbor also in line from my front door straight out and he has kids. Ive been told by state troopers that should something happen, do what needs to be done and drag the former person into the house before calling the police. Gotta love Stand Your Ground states
Comedian Dave Chappelle has a bit where he is told by a gun store clerk that when facing an attacker, "first you pepper him up nicely" with the birdshot, then hit him with the buckshot
I've watched dozens of videos on this topic and done my own tests using my 12ga Mossberg. The core takeaway is, birdshot can absolutely be effective for home defense but with a huge caveat. Most people being shot at will leave immediately if not incapacitated. However, the RANGE of birdshots' effectiveness on flesh is limited to about 5 yards. Within 5 yards, the pellets act almost like a slug. Any further than that though and it just spreads out too much, losing energy fast. So if you KNOW your intended target will be within 5 yards of you in a SHTF situation, then birdshot will get the job done. But do you want to take that big risk? You're much better off with buckshot, where you don't have to worry about range being a factor at all.
Very helpful. Thanks Steve and Savant
I was not aware that there were that many shot in the shells since I am not much on shotguns so I figured the number on the box was the number of shot in the shell. I have an old Browning Auto 5 my grandad left me with a couple boxes of super old Duck and Pheasant shells that says 6 shot on top of the boxes. Most of these shells are the old paper type and the gun has a super small opening on the busines end of the gun that looks like a 410 but it is most definitely a 12 gauge shotgun. Im thinking about buying some new ammo for this thing for defense but still unsure which ones to get since this thing would be my last resort gun as I already have 2 pistols that are more than sufficient to bring down and intruder. BTW it is chambered for 2 3/3" shells.
To me, #6 is the minimum for decent home defense, at 4 or 5 yards that is a lot of hurt inflicted...think about what you said, "Duck and Pheasant"...those shells also very good for rabbit and squirrel...if you are considering some heavier shot, #4 buckshot is great, and 00 buckshot has severe consequences upon the uninvited...lots of folks here will tell you birdshot for birds, buckshot for bucks, and the difference is the size of the shot...#6 is .110 caliber, 00 buckshot is .330 caliber (9mm is .355 caliber)...the bigger the shot, the fewer per shell...the #4 buckshot that a lot of folks like is .240 caliber, 27 of them in an average shell...00 has 9 in the average shell, your #6 has about 225 in the average shell...
People assume if it doesn't kill in one shot its not meant for home defense. Depending on placement, you are going to do some serious damage that will require a visit to the hospital. I'll take something that might require a follow up shot vs over penetration.
At home defense distances, birdshot will take an awful lot of fight out of a bad guy, and ask any trauma surgeon which he'd rather deal with, birdshot from close range or a slug, and he'll pick the slug every time. There's a lot of STOP in a load of birdshot at less than 20 feet.
How about for the next Smyth Busters you guys address the myth that the average home intruder will laugh off birdshot and keep going?
1. Outside of a hit apecifically put on you, nobody is going to be determined enough to stay and fight after hearing the action or the first shot.
2. At home defense range, birdshot wont even leave the cup, it will be a slug effectively
3. Birdshot will still knock the wind out of someone with one solid hit
Most home invaders do not expect resistance and when confronted with such most invaders flee with great haste. Being on the receiving end of a shotgun blast, even with birdshot, can have a profound impact on one's desire to invade anything. Having said that, however, within 20 yds. #4, 5, or 6 shot is more than adequate to stop an intruder, whether in the chest, gut, or crotch. That last one is definitely a stopper!🤪
Dick Cheney specials!
I think everyone worries too much about over penetration. Life or death.
In your house, know where your family members are before you shoot.
Then its all good, probably. It's 99.9% going to hit a wall or a tree or dirt.
Just make sure it goes through the bad guy first.
Fifty years ago, medical journals reviewed the post mortem (emphasis on "post") examinations of people killed with #6 birdshot inside 10 feet. Its basically a .80-caliber Glaser Safety slug. Clothing or not, the target is still absorbing a ton of energy foot pounds in a 1-2" wide , 1-2" long chunk of lead. This is NOT the same deal as #8 at 35 yards 100 feet or more, from a 28 guage and an. Improved cylinder choke dove hunting putting individual pellets into a 30" circle and at that distance, the pellets have decelerated to 600 feet per second and can barely penetrate skin. Im referring to the Dick Cheney hunting accident. Even so, the unfortunate hunting partner who was peppered by #8s from Cheney's 28 gauge Perazzi, still ended having one lucky pellet pierce a small blood vessel and get carried all the way back to his heart, causing a life threatening cardiac emergency. Birdshot inside a home, inside a condo, etc is fine. If your shots are inside ten feet, your going to dump between 1,500 and 2,500 energy foot pounds into a human body in a pattetn LESS than 2" in diameter. I don't think anyone would volunteer to stand in front of a 16 pound sledgehammer at full swing, or a bus going 15 mph, either. Neither of those will penetrate four layers of denim, either. But both can kill and definitely put someone down.
12 gauge #6 birdshot to the face at 5 yards, threat eliminated. Buckshot is definitely a better choice for anything past 5 yards where the pattern starts to open up or if you are going to shoot centre mass through heavy clothing.
I love my house, but if I put a few holes in the wall making bad guys Go Away, oh well.
The Jeff Quinn video on this subject is all you need to see.
Synchronized coffee slurping.
Remember that you saw it first on Smythbusters!!!
Sorry can't change my mind... I have a double barrel pump 12 gauge. First round is #8 birdshot second round 00 buck. 6 rounds of each in the shotgun. Always double tap!
There is of course the people who will make the tactically unsound and possibly legally unwise comment "I just want to to scare them off, not actually seriously hurt them..."
My home defense has the variety of #4 buck thru 00 buck ending with a slug. Pick your scenario of threat etc. I'm rural, so neighbors are out of shotgun range.
All these speak to, “just don’t break into a home, they may be loaded for bear, you are not a bear”
If all you got is bird shot it’s still better than calling 911 or throwing your remote at them.
fact
I keep a box of remotes at my bedside.
@@hookeaires6637
😂. I guess I do too and might as well throw them as every single one has tape to hold the battery cover.
@@jerkygutts8386 same here! Tape is piling up!
#4 is very good as it does a great job on turkeys. #8 could work through a short but i wouldn't trust it.
Under 10 yards all birdshot would work well. However ‘birdshot’ can mean over a dozen different loads. A 3” load of lead bb is birdshot but is entirely different than 2 3/4 #8 which is also birdshot.
A lot of this is dependent on what a persons home is. In a dense urban area such as an apartment complex some birdshot loads may be the ideal choice
🤷♂️
Caleb and Steve sprinkle number 6 shot on their cupcakes.
As a teenager a friend of mine was shot in the face by his brother with .410 #8 shot from about 15 feet and blew his whole jaw off.
#4 or #6 is plenty deadly inside a house. How far away is the perpetrator actually going be? 10 ft? 20 ft max? Within that range either one of those is lethal. Then there's the old trick of perforating small cuts with a razor knife all the way around the middle of the shell which causes the entire end of the shell with the shot and wad to exit the shotgun intact and then when it strikes something solid it becomes a "frangible" round meaning that it will save all of its mass/energy until it strikes something and then it will spread the energy out into whatever it has hit. That's what we use in my house.That way you can basically have a slug that will become birdshot as soon as it strikes something hard and over penetration is never an issue. These cycle perfectly in a pump action. I don't know how they would cycle it a autoloader but I'd be willing to bet they'd work just as well.
00 buck and 000 buckshot will penetrate more than a couple of drywall layers which is not ideal. remember that whether you are defending yourself or not, like it or not every round you send has a lawyer attached to it.
I've handled a few murder and other shooting cases where folks have been shot with birdshot.
Unless you live in a mansion, proper shot placement with #3 or #2 birdshot will definitely make someone DRT.
Not advocating birdshot for defense, but I know as a fact #2, 3" birdshot will drop a man in his tracks.
I haven't seen anyone talk about or test turkey loads for home defense. Aren't turkey load designed to keep the shot together over a longer distance? So if they were used at close range wouldn't the damage be much more catastrophic?
We have some 3 inch magnum turkey loads...never tested them, yet...and at our anticipated engagement range (4 yards) I'd think they would do just fine...the missus has to hold on tight with 00, the turkey load might be too much...hmm...
@@PetuniaIii-pd1ww I don't like shooting magnums either! LOL
Bird shot will kill you dead if shot inside a house. As for 22lr, you can drop 1200 pound cows all day long with it.
#2 birdshot in a home defense scenario is perfect to give a dirtbag a bad day if he is stupid enough to break into your home. And no over penetration concerns.
I mean yes, over penetration concerns. But you can't have it all. #2 lead will blow through a wall, but it will leave a lot more of it's velocity inside said wall than 00 Buck. If you're paranoid about confronting a bad guy in a hallway facing your kid's room, maybe combine your #2 birdshoy with a nice wooden dresser against the wall.
Pump Action is MORE reliable than Semi Auto Shorgun?
Double-ought buck for in-the-house goblin-hunting. Leave the birdshot for ... Yep, I'm goin' there - the birds!
I just covered a trial of a man who was later convicted of assault with a deadly weapon against a police officer. The guy shot a sheriff’s deputy who was trying to serve an arrest warrant. The guy used a Winchester Defender 1300 12 gauge loaded with No. 9 shot. Apparently, the guy bought No. 9 thinking the higher number meant it was more deadly. He shot the deputy in the face from about 20-30 yards away. That’s my guess judging from the video, and there was some question about the distance in the trial. But it permanently blinded the deputy in both eyes, and it took him out of the fight. The jury gave the guy life, btw.
I would argue that if you need to shoot a person they will likely be within 20 or 30 feet so the wadding alone might be bad news. Also the psychological factor of a shotguns racking is often enough to dissuade an intruder as well as the noise of discharging it. High pant-crapping factor there. Plus, birdshot should take an intruder out of the fight without necessarily killing them. Everybody wins, but the homeowner wins more.
So paul Harrel did a presentation and showed that even a number 6 birdshot would be effective for home defense. 00 buck penatrated through 3 walls and and kept going through a soda jug...i personally use a number 4 or number 2 birdshot in my hd shotgun.
Shotgun is good generally and buck shot is better than bird shot. Got it. Thanks
Most shots in a home invasion would be 20-40 feet give or take. Pattern birdshot with a full or turkey choke at that distance and then give me your opinion…see what it does to a piece of osb board or plywood
The FBI was noted for using number 4 buckshot for their 12 gauges that is sweet in the middle 27 pellets in 23 caliber they go though 2x4 wood like nothing give you 3 times the pellet count of 00 9 32 cal pellet. Its physics and math giving the best of both worlds increased hit probability with enough mass for each lead pellet to make it to the vitals even go though bones.
00 or slug,i live where I dont have to worry about over penetration. Hope I never have to use a firearm, but I WILL.!🇺🇸
Birdshot may not stop a threat?… Are you joking?! Then aim for the head… threat will stop.
So many of these videos fail to mention magnum turkey load and #4 buck.. I’ll take my chances with either
Anyone who claims #4 bird shot is not good for home defense is clueless
I know two people killed by bird shot
I have seen many videos showing what it will destroy the ribs and lungs
So if some clown says it will not work is proving they are clueless
#4 with a full choke is perfect..
Not all birdshot is created equal. I would not use use no. 7 at any range but BB or BBB or T size birdshot should deliver incapacitating wounds at virtually all indoor home distances (assuming center of mass hits).