One aspect of Harley that I find the most interesting in her modern depictions is her overall trajectory between good and evil. Harley is very flawed, mentally unstable, deadly even, but she's also compassionate and seems to have a morale compass especially to people she considers her friends or people she personally considers off-limits, often children. As a result, modern portrayals of Harley can range between having her becoming a good guy, anti-hero, part of Batman's inner circle (Injustice or Harley Quinn cartoon), versus Harley becoming completely villainous but her own person, like in Gotham Knights. She has so many nuances that can get muddled that she really has no clear path, which can make her very interesting if done right.
@Raymond Fisher III I think it's intresting how Harley seems to be completely shaped around the story being told everytime she appears, she's like a chameleon or mr mxyzptlk
In the Injustice comic that features Jon Kent, Harley personally walked up to Jon and apologized for the part she played in the death of Lois and the premature death of Jon in her universe completely unprompted, to which he was not receptive and forgiving initially, and her explanation really sheds a light on how she views her activities with Joker: "It was Superman, you know? He always find a way. I just thought it was a game. I didn't think Joker would win." Despite her very outwardly seeking the guy's approval when he was alive, she never truly wanted the same things Joker did. She doesn't particularly care for the senseless violence, the platitudes of a mad society, or gettin one over the caped heroes. To her, it was always just a game, one she wasn't seriously committed to winning. In fact, on some level she was banking on Batman or Superman winning. And it took being on the winning side for once for it to sink in that it wasn't a game.
More recently the problem that most iterations of modern Harley Quinn run into is rather than the nuance of her original encounter with The Joker which did involve manipulation on his part but also choices on hers because there was more going on there. It was more than just wanting to fix him, which was part of it. It was also her being drawn to him as he was and some of the intimate places that he employes unlocks dark spots of her that were already present and dormant but that she likes. She came to enjoy being Harley Quinn striking on her own numerous times and wreaking havoc and even away from The Joker originally she still remained a villain by choice. There was a darkness to Harley as juxtaposed buy her fuzz and bubbly personality. But that did not mean that she was completely nice and a pushover or that she wasn't herself an emotional manipulator. There are layers there and sometimes some got caught up on the fact that she was so pleasant that for some reason she must be naive or silly. That was never how they used to portray her. She was extremely clever in some arenas but not in others. This story along with the Harleen book in no way does what many comics often do which is cast aside all of this for a reductive and simplified "HARLEY VICTIM" "JOKER BAD" "HARLEY GOOD" "HARLEY ESCAPE" "HARLEY EMPOWERED WOMAN". Harley's tale can definitely be that of an empowerment but it was still one even while she was with The Joker, not because she was with him but because she's a complete character. She's a strong female character because a true strong character is one that is truly fleshed out even if they are flawed. Harley always stood out because the narrative always forced the reader or viewer to ask the question why would someone want to be with a monster, what did that say about her. You felt bad for Harley but at the same time acknowledged she was no innocent shrinking violet.
Except excluding the birds of prey movie Harley is still regarded as bad. But sure let's just act like geeks and gamers and whine that everything is "woke" and flat out lie.
I always forget how much her accent comes out, once she’s fully embraced the persona of Harley Quinn. Arleen Sorkin used it very subtly, whether like a person who practices getting rid of a thick accent, in the belief that it would hurt their career path, or as part of the character she becomes, believing Joker would love it. It’s an excellent voice acting performance
Don't see many kids oriented media warning people about the dangers of manipulative and abusive relationships. And from the popularity of the Joker/Harley pairing in pop culture, most people missed the message.
Nah we the people get it, unlike you, who is probably a virgin. Me and my girl? We're basically Joker and Harley Q, always making each other laugh and getting into trouble, having our ups and downs like any partners in crime. {:-)
Dude, I remember back in the early 2010s that that ship was being marketed everywhere, t-shirts, posters and what not. Kind of fucked that even for a small while they merchandised an abusive couple in a positive way.
Several hundred years later and people are still missing the fact that Romeo and Juliet aren't meant to be relationship goals either, so I'm not surprised. I mean for fucks sake, there's that one pop song where she asks Jupiter to bless her relationship - in the most perfectly incandescent idiot move, just obscure enough that I'm almost convinced it's a joke, this girl asks ***ZEUS*** to make sure her and her boyfriend hook up. Folk just don't know what they're watching
Every fangirl who says "I want a relationship like Joker and Harley" should be made to watch Mad Love. Then they'll learn they don't want a relationship like that.
@@jacksonhopp2003 lol nah. Every fangirl should read Batman: Harley and Ivy where Harley throws a plant at Batman to help them escape, and Poison Ivy abuses her and tries to kill her because she cares more about the plant than Harley.
Yeah, it's almost like it's avoidance culture propaganda designed to erase the damage our expectation that others come long on emotional labour is doing.
From the twins' "Nana Harley" appearing at the end of _The Return of the Joker,_ it took Joker dying for her to finally start making a life for her own. But sadly still not until she had participated in the final outrage of breaking the mind of Tim Drake.
Harley having HPD, makes so much sense regarding her personality, she wanted to be in Arkham, first as a Doctor, drawn to the darker side of human personalities. she thought her personality was stronger than his, and he gaslit and manipulated her. he broke her, and she's become an addict to his personality. because she thought she could save him! the fact that this happened in an animated show. wow
Modern Harley Quinn is exactly what she is, she's been watered down and sanitized and even stripped of her costume and what made her special to begin with which was being both an accessory and a metaphor to that accessory of the joker, she could never quite escape his shadow and so there had to have been a journey of her rediscovering her identity, even her voice is pitched up to be more clownish and happy when in actuality the real Harleen Quinzel was more serious and if the comic serves as an example she was a seductress.
You can really only roll with her being the Joker's abuse-victim/henchwoman for so long really. Eventually the luster of her oh so tragic backstory will fade away and the reader will feel no sympathy for her. She assists in murder, torture, and mutilation. If she wares out her sympathy card, what is she? A basic bitch henchwoman who just "used to" have potential for reform? At that point where you don't try anything else, you may as well have the Joker kill her as far as she'll ever grow or change. Having her role change to a person who won't be abused anymore is interesting. I don't think it's been perfectly done. PERSONALLY, I'd have tried to use her as a platform to show that Batman ideally wants to reform and help his broken villains; maybe have Harley well and truly reform. These days they still keep her a villain/anti-hero and it can be interesting, because she is a good analogy for showing someone breaking the cycle of abuse but keeping her a villain is a stupid idea.
@@Nightman221k if you don't show her origin or her going through that change then by that same logic we can simply not show batman, superman, wonder woman or any other heroes origin much less her fall into that cycle. The things you just described are all done in the show in a small 28 minute format, sometimes for an episode and much later when she's struck it alone and has grandkids. If you don't show that then your not showing her journey from villain to anti hero, if you don't create that sympathy instead going into a character with no proper background then you risk her becoming a Mary sue and becoming just another one of the bunch like most of the DC heroes that aren't given that level of detail and attention, story telling is a journey and whatever direction it goes you have to take the audience with you every step of the way.
As an old school BTAS fan, I definitely think Harleen is a sympathetic character who is capable of redemption. The thing that I dislike about modern adaptations is that I don’t understand why she needs to stay Harley. Harley Quinn was a creation of the joker, a way in which he messed with her head and made her like him. The best thing about the white knight continuity is that, when she came to her senses, Harleen Quinnzel took off her make up and walked away. I get that she has a great design and is very marketable, but there’s something very sad about that keeping her trapped in the garb chosen by her abuser.
The way I see it is that the jester Harley was all joker because that’s all she was to him, a fool. The joker thought he broke down Harley and the joke was on her but she technically created herself, she decided to be his clown and she realized that the joke was on him because now she’s stronger, more courageous and more confident in herself than she’s ever been and that’s all thanks to joker for unleashing her true self, he had power over her but she decided to take that power and make it her strength, she embraces her clown persona and with her own twist to show she’s no longer his fool and that what once was his is now a better version of hers.
@@phenomskllz2502 I can see that reasoning and I kind of get it, but in the meta she is still playing dress-up in her abuser’s aesthetic. Keeping her in the harlequin get up keeps her inseparable from the joker, no matter how many stories they try to tell without him. Until she ditches the gimmick, she will always just be the second most important clown in Gotham.
@@phenomskllz2502 Harley is the one who chose the jester outfit, she stole it herself without Joker telling her to. It was her way of embracing the new criminal persona.
@@hrishiv27 Except her outfit is wildly different now and in the live action ones it is ever changing. She has her hair out instead of in a hat, blonde with some light red + blue dye unlike the blood red + black of her old outfit. Her outfit is still red + black in the animated show but now she wears more modern fashion as a crop top + shorts. Her outfit is a lot less contained, and she will more often wear different outfits based on the setting. In S3 she even comments on her old outfit in S3 as being so limiting for her obsession with the Joker.
arleen sorkin is truly harley much like kevin conroy is batman and mark hamill is joker the subtle inflections and just the way she speaks is so pleasing to the ears, my favorite harley line ever is when she says "nice guys like you shouldnt have bad days"
yeah seriously she does not get talked about enough, like no offense to the current voice actors for the character but her voice and inflections are just too perfect for the character and can't be matched, like the character was Literally designed after her/a role she played, (I think my person problem with the modern voice acting for her is that for her accent they either overdo it or don't do it at all)
@@christopherauzenne5023 i completely agree with you, the current harley voices lean way too heavily into the "ditzy" kind of accent or just is all sass and not a lot of subtlety, it really lacks the human touch and the depth arleen brought to harley an the myriad of emotions both soft and intense with the combination of writing and voice direction to bring out the best of it
To be fair Harley Quinn was designed & based off Arleen Sorkin, so it makes sense she’d be the perfect role. I miss hearing that voice in more modern DC media, but I think Harley’s voice actress in the Batman(2004) did a fairly good job at replicating it with a bit of original stuff thrown in too.
To me harley is just one of those person who was just bored with their monotonous life to the point where anything that would make their heart race no matter how deadly it was would be treated as a way to obtain true happiness. Kinda sound like the suspending bridge effect with the joker being the bridge.
While we're on the topic of modern Harley, there's something that really stood out about this that is kinda reflected in Harley. I've noticed in some interpretations, it went for the narrative that Harley was kinda already messed up in the head before she met joker, like in that one episode in the Harley Quinn show where they enter her mind and see her messed up past. At first I thought this was just to make Harley seem more independent from the joker, but looking back at it after this video, it kinda makes sense. Harley was never okay, she probably would've become a super villain even if she never met joker, and it ties in really well with the idea of Harley's potential if she struck out on her own like she did in mad love.
No sane person falls in love with the joker after a sob story. Harley was guliable and niave. Any person who gets tricked like that and commits felony's after wards is not ok in the head
It also explains how she broke free. It can't be overstated that Poison Ivy is a huge part of Harley breaking free. Whereas Joker got him addicted to his personality and "love", Pam gave her genuine love and friendship, and in doing so broke the Joker's monopoly on the supply of needed affection Harley had access to. Pam gives her someone she can be with who isn't the Joker that gives her love but also security and a healthy intimacy. I'm not sure Harley ever fully breaks free without her.
Ivy uses/has used Harley as well. Just because they're relationship is emotionally and not physically abusive, Ivy always gets a pass. (And the fact that people will gladly turn a blind eye to abuse in same sex couples.)
@@1SpicyMeataball Ivy tends to "get that pass" because unlike Joker, Ivy grew as a character. Harley helped Ivy change and become a better person . Yes Ivy emotionally manipulated, and abused Harley there is no denying that, but she also stopped doing it, she evolved and grew to be more supportive and kind towards Harley. This is why Gotham City Sirens was such a good series.
@@1SpicyMeataball I take it according to the original DCAU iteration of their friendship where Pam was uniformly just a good friend. Harley became by far her strongest connection to her humanity, and Pam unlike later comic book versions (which I didn't read when they first came out) basically did her best to pull her away from the world's worst psycho.
I think you missed one thing about the Batman's train-top conversation with the Joker. It always seemed to me that the Batman was playing the Joker fully as much as he had earlier played Harley. Everyone has a weakness. Joker's weakness (one of many, no doubt) is in his ego. The Batman is good at observing and utilizing the weaknesses of his enemies, and realizes that he can practically disarm the Joker by bombshelling him with the near-success of Harley's kill-the-Bat attempt. Was he anywhere near as helpless as he led both of them to believe? I don't think so -- but an unreasonably angry enemy is a stupid enemy, and the Batman wants all of his enemies stupid.
I do think that Batman wouldn't have been killed by Harley. Not enough. But judging by Batman's words. He does see potential in Harley to kill him down the lane. Because well she got him all tied down by herself. And might even have injured him. Which is more than what Joker has ever achieved to do. Despite his loud yappings. So. A best lie is always somewhat the truth . Imo.
As someone in abusive relationship I understand why harlequin keeps coming back. that little gesture of "kindness" tells us they care and are sorry even tho we know deep down it doesn't.
I think joker’s greatest joke to the relationship was how he, in some extent, fooled a lot of people. Even the viewers. Shoutout to all the pairs that wore The Joker and Harley costumes/merch
That’s why I don’t like modern Harley, it glosses over her also being a horrible person and almost equally maniacal. So she can be a hero who hooks up with a plant lady who hates all of humanity. None of that makes sense. She breaks up with joker and is all of a sudden a well developed but traumatized human. As if she didn’t have screws loose that drew her to joker
I still remember how I felt when Harley was in Arkham at the end, opened that letter, and interrupts herself when she was scrutinizing Joker to say "a little angel" and that left me speechless. What a tragic portrayal of Stockholm Syndrome.
People nowadays say that Harley (in all media) has no nuance, but the truth is she lost a lot of it over the years. The tragic nature of the character has been lost. It's the opposite of Jinx, who was just a manic character on introduction, but in Arcane, she is anything but one dimensional (I was watching a video comparing the two, and the comments all talked about Harley as if she has zero nuance, which, while somewhat understandable nowadays, is kind of sad).
yeah I feel to many writers don't fully get the character and end up viewing her as just her character aesthetics, she is a clown girl so a lot of them just have her be a zanny, screwball, so random character which takes away a lot of her depth as a tale of tragedy. I also personally feel she is one of those characters who can only truly shine when they are not the spotlight. some characters work amazingly as side/secondary characters but shouldn't be the main character of a story (the main example that comes to mind is "planet sheen"). I do think some characters shouldn't be main characters and that's not an insult because being a side character might be much better for them in the long run.
Yes, I agree that Harley Quinn works best as a side character or as a main character within a group (ex. Suicide Squad), especially when she’s the comic relief character in the show/movie.
Well tbh, I don't think anything is lost y'know. Like back in the day. I don't think there were many who understood the deeper implications of fiction. I still don't think many do. It's just that bad adaptations with good production are taking over . The ones who truly saw were rare and indeed still are. Like let's look at this video. Though it's not much. There are still lakhs of people who see the deeper implications of things. And branch of it. It's not lost . It rather rejuvenating. Like if being honest. Lakhs is a lot in comparison to previous generations. Well my point is that. I think that in reality, there are more people looking for deeper things. And if I find the right content and right people. It will compound and multiply. So don't let the ignorant loudmouths get you down. I believe in my reality. And so should you. Like this video in itself is the prime example of this. All that remains is getting us to the mainstream. Which isn't too far off
Do you remember in like 2017 when some casuals discovered Harley Quinn due to the Suicide Squad film and described her relationship to the Joker as "relationship goals" 😅?
I remember the v e r y clever visual story telling of having a tattoo on his forehead that said Damaged. "All the subtlety and nuance of a napalm enema." - Joker, Arkham Knight
I want to see modern Harley lean into her interest in abusive relationships. I want to see her swear off of them and then jump into another one. Her relationship with Ivy isn't always great either, but the crux of the character described in Mad Love was that she had a particular attraction and interest in the criminally insane. If there were more solo outings of Harley, I'd like to see her battling and combatting that internally. Use a framing device so we can get her psychiatrist persona as Dr. Quinzel to talk to us as a reliable narrator, and maybe juxtapose in her own criminally insane persona of Harley, and maybe they're constantly at odds and that gives us a feeling of inner conflict as we move through the story and finally gets a resolution right before the climax of whatever the story on screen is. I crave a character driven story for Harley, not just a suicide squad movie that features her. We got close with Birds of Prey, but I think with new direction at DC that we can do better.
This was a really enjoyable analysis, for me the primary lure of Harley was that intrinsic need to help/fix how damaged the character is from primarily moments like this. Thanks for the great breakdown!
This episode traumatized me as a kid, and it is still uncomfortable to watch because it is such a disturbing and accurate portrayal of an abusive relationship. Ever since I first saw the scene where Joker pushed Harley out of that window, I wanted to see her character become free of him and now she has. I just wish modern portrayals would do a better job at showing how abusive the relationship was. The Snyderverse didn't show it at all. Honestly the perfect Harley Quinn story would start off like Mad Love to show the abusive relationship, how it developed, how HArley became a villain, her dark side, and how she became completely infatuated and in love with the Joker. And then eventually (maybe years later) we could see her recovering and reforming in a realistic way before she goes out on her own with Poison Ivy. Either way the Harley Quinn show is a better watch if you watch Mad Love first and pretend it's in the same canyon as her show. It makes her arc feel whole.
Honestly this might have been a bit nicer to Harley than comic Mad Love. Not by much, but at least it didn’t suggest she slept with a professor to improve her grades.
Taking that out was a good idea. I think that most people who resonate with Harley's origin like to think that she was at one point in her life serious about the study of criminal psychology and had a degree of talent for psychology rather than just being a bimbo who slept her way through school.
I find it funny when people look at Joker and Harley's relationship and think it's unrealistic for someone to fall in love with a manipulative sociopath that has committed several murders and terrorist acts when people are out here simping for real life murderers because they're hot or "misunderstood".
Taking this quick opportunity to say I've been watching your essays on the DCAU, one of my favorite animated universes that comes to mind. If you ever watched Project Zeta, there lies a good material about the pursuit of identity, purpose, character and family, both from Z's perspective and from Ro's as well.
I'm so glad I stumbled across you man. Finding someone else who genuinely cares about these characters give their perspective in such a well done video gives me goosebumps. Keep doing what you're doing and you've got a fan for life.
I made a comment on a video about the DeeDee twins from Batman Beyond, and I wondered what Harley thought about her grandchildren being part of a gang that glorified her abuser, and a reply from someone thought they weren't portrayed as abusive in the DCAU and as such wouldn't care, and i just couldn't fathom how they thought that.
True but let’s not forget that she did have choices, even after being separated from the joker she stayed as Harley Quinn, why? Because Joker didn’t just manipulate her, he revealed her true self, Harley Quinn was always inside Harleen which a lot of modern interpretations seem to miss, yes she was manipulated, but no she wasn’t naive she was actually really clever and even manipulative herself but it was hidden under he bubbly exterior.
To be fair, there are actually parts of the DCAU that deal with Harley Quinn's reformation. There's an episode where she tries to go straight & Batman buys her a dress, she's anti-Jokerz in Return of ths Joker, & in Batman & Harley Quinn, she's recently put crime behind her.
It fills my heart that people have serious conversations about this tv show made for kids and teens, I loved this show when I first saw it and I love it even more now that I can understand the subtext
Growing up watching this original version of Harley I had a similar view and understanding of the modern character that you came into seeing. I definitely never analysed it to your extent but especially while watching the newer cartoon, need to check out the newer season, but I found it fun as an exploration to what her character has become in modern stylings while also showing some form of growth you generally only ever see in one off movies/comics that isn't mentioned again at least as far as some characters are concerned. Anyway another awesome video!
She seems like the kind of kid who was so smart that she skipped a few grades. Smart enough to be there, but lacking the emotional intelligence that comes with age, leaving her vulnerable to a persuasive experienced man.
I never on board with the while quickly assuming someone has stolkhome syndrome for sympatizing with their captor. In some cases, those are just things that "happened". Same goals, different mothods. Yet, when the two met, they're bound to have some sort of agreement, even as enemy. Someone became villain because of trauma, Others became Hero because of trauma. They related. Even in real life. I thought that's what super heroes is all about. I'm not talking about Harley queen, but I think it can be brought into all super heroes context.
I really do think batman was sweet in the comic to honestly give Harley a reality check and reason with her that the joker is narrastic and is mantiplutive.
love this video very much. harley is my favorite dc character and im excited to see you explore her more. seeing her grow over the course of the various dc properties has been wonderful
Do the Barbara and Bruce video already! Mad Love is definitely the darkest half hour of kids television ever. Only comparable to a couple episodes of Hey Arnold. I still can't believe they perfectly showed the patterns of an abusive relationship.
Harley is a Woman caught in between a relationship of two Men which is in itself so historied and complex it's hard to decipher reason from it in the first place. It be like placing yourself at the center of a whirlpool of course you're gonna get pulled under the waves of such a powerful tide.
I think you would love Batman: White Knight. It's a great book that alters some of the history of Harley Quinn to honestly make it more compelling. Highly recommend
I keep seeing a lot of people say her modern iterations lack nuance, but at least in the things I've seen, she still remains a complicated nuanced character, usually just futher down the line in her journey.
I love harley's more recent depictions, i am so so glad it seems to be becoming a rule rather than an exception The badass bisexual who beats up bad guys and dates the hottest ecoterrist what's not to like? But also, she sends a...rather hopeful message about mental illness in a media where we're the depressed turned insane or suicidal, the bipolar turned maniac, the antisocial turned...well... _points at the joker_ She gives a good message that mentall illness doesn't make us monster That mental illness isn't our fault, but it is our responsability That, with people that love and support us, we can change About escaping bad situations About finding your happiness in the people around you And that even from the darkest, deepest pit, there is hope of escape, of being a better person And looking hella good while doing it I really love Harley now, she's part of my trio of favorites of this genre (other two being Spiderman and Kamala Khan)
I liked the then of Joker’s “Always taking shots from folks who just don’t get the joke” As a way for him to emotionally manipulate Harley. When it says it in the flashback it’s to make himself sympathetic and build the image that he’s a damaged, abused boy that needs her help. Than he used it again in present day to emotionally destroy her and tear this image down to revel that he’s always just been this bad deep down.
That is still the #1 thing that infuriated me about that movie. It could have clearly established how twisted their relationship was, but for some hellish reason they wanted to make it feel "cool" and "glamorous" and marketable, and imply that oh, Joker actually does care a lot about her! Feels like it then left the Birds of Prey movie to basically clean up its mess.
@@Semudara yeah except it still doesn't delve into the dynamic of their relationship only from Harleys point of view. "Oh he broke up with me but I'll never tell you why" it's like really? They are so afraid of showing Joker and Harleys relationship in its true form and for what merchandise sales? If your gonna tell Joker and Harleys relationship don't sugar coat it tell it in its raw purest form. Ugly messy horrifying and toxic. Harleys tale is a tragic cautionary one and it's really sad.
Another thing about this episode is imagine if joker found out that Harley actually made Batman laugh 😬, He'd have done a helluva lot more than just slap her & push her out a window
Leaving a comment for the algorithm gods! There's nothing I love more than psychology meets pop culture. I absolutely love the deep, dark dives you've been doing.
The thing about Harley is that between her debut in the DCAU and modern interpretations, she had decades of comic-verse character development. Like a real-world abuse victim, she had her slow realizations, her moments of hope, her backslides, and her chances to finally move on. She rooms with Ivy and Selina while expecting to return to Joker, she has a kid by him that she knows he can't find out about because "his work is too important," and she finally gets a new boyfriend and beats the crap out of her old one (which was him manipulating her so he could escape). Cramming that into a couple movies, or having that realization come all at once, is what takes away the nuance and has people crying "Character derailment!" But, yeah, the backbone of her character was always there. Great commentary and presentation, as always!
You know something it's interesting that Joker still gets loved and applauded despite his abuse of Harley while Hank Pym was damned because he hit Janet one time, that was a miscommunication between the writer and artist. It's funny the double standards don't apply to Joker, yes he is a villain but Hank was going through a mental breakdown while becoming Yellow jacket. Just a thought. It was interesting how this show cased domestic abuse and toxic relationships but to some people it was normalized. This episode is sad but showed us that some people in the world are like Joker.
I think it might be cause of what people are used to of a character, hanks supposed to be a hero so they have higher standards of him even though there's a lot more he's done than that. And joker is a bad guy so they just accept he's gonna do bad things, plus Harley is incredibly doting on joker so people see that level of affection and think they've got something special without looking at the bigger picture.
@CRAgamer Hank at least tried to redeem himself, but Joker never redeemed himself and only got worse, but the mindless fanboys will continue to kiss his ass and condem Pym.
@@zemox2534 agreed Hank was going through a mental breakdown because of everything happening in his life to not being appreciated and finding out his creation has become one of the most enduring villains in all of Marvel, Ultron
(Fyi: some verbal abuse stuff) I watched this video and realized exactly why I always related to Harley so much. It wasn't because we shared the abuse, the love of comedy and psychology, and the NY accent. It was because she saw the pain in someone else's trauma and tried to help them and was abused and left a fool as a result. I paused the video when my dad came home from work, and it all hit me. He started to verbally cut into me like he always does, and my eyes just went to Harleys crying face in the thumbnail. I starred shaking so hard I couldn't stand up right. He left the room briefly and I turned the lights off and tried to hide from him, but he came back into the room just to find me, to yell at me, because he knew I cared enough to believe I was the bad guy so he could get that dopamine boost of the day. I bolted and am now hiding in a closet as I'm writing this. Its been the same song and dance for 15+ years. If it wasn't for comics, animation and films, I'd never have had the gift of clarity and validation in situations like the one I'm in as easily. But unlike these fictional characters, that isnt always enough. You can't always get away. Abuse is a nightmare but also underdiscussed. People still fail to understand Harley's complexity. And to think her character only was made for a cake gag.. anyway, brilliant vid as always.
I feel like most batman villians can be redeemed. If they were actually worked towards being recouped and such. For example, in the Harley Quinn show there's a episode where she and ivy gets thrown into THE PIT, a prison watched by bane after joker takes over Gotham after batman's death. Everybody in there actually decided to be "good" and do recreational activities. Ya know redeem themselves for their crimes. Villians like croc actually attempted to be good. Or course they all ended up becoming bad again so she can get out ya ya, but I feel it shows the potential for them to be good.
Histrionic personality disorder doesn't fit right. She didn't need to be the center of attention, that was Joker's deal, and she was happy to let him do that. I think codependency was her issue. She built her life around Joker, and enabled him. The problem came when her attempts at enabling were too successful and drew attention away from him. Otherwise, a great video.
Even though I wasn't a big fan of most of the designs in season 4 I will admit the animated series overall had some absolute brilliant idea's,Character's and episode's in general
I honestly never fully understood how joker was able to get Harley to change and have control over her like that. I felt it was just a plot hole I had to except that he played mind games but you really broke it down and it all makes way more sense maybe I never really put in time to look up how but great video!! Always explain things in a fun and interesting way!!!
Your content is amazing as usual! Also I'm really looking forward to the introspection of Mercy Graves. She's really interesting and I want to hear your thoughts and opinions of her dedication to Lex. Also I can't wait to see the title. lol
Cant move on from someone because I knew a lot about her, and her sob story. Loved her deeply, enpathized with her. Despite learning that she played me, two-timing me with someone else. I still loved her, and understand why she is like that most likely to her past. But. I realized I became the Harley and she's the Joker. Maybe what I felt was real, was all a joke to her.
You know it's rather sad when the modern interpretations of Harley Quinn are sanitized versions of the kids cartoon, even though they're rated R or PG-13.
I see it as too many writers are just writing her as what they think she's like based on her aesthetics/design. "she is a clown girl so she must be super silly and whacky" stuff like that
I really like Harley in the Injustice comics, she's funny has an emotional story-line in the first book, and is really needed comics relief after they kill green arrow and nightwing
The modern takes on Harley are beyond simplistic and actively go against the original theme of the character. She is both a victim and a monster partly due to the Joker's affect on her as well as herself having gotten into the twisted relationship of her own free will. She was not a good person before the Joker got his hooks in her but she was not utterly evil or warped like him. She is a warning that your choices are not just made by you but can make you as well and she is to be both worthy of pitty for her plight but also feared for she is very much a monster of her Puddin's making. This gives her a depth you lose when she is just a female version of the Joker who goes "boss babe" and leaves him to do her own thing. Much how Mr. Freeze is enriched having his motives Harley is as well from the lot in life she partly got herself into making the viewer sympathize with the devil as it were.
Obligatory "not a psychologist" but like... I went and looked up hpd and it seemed to fit pretty well, except for the part about needing to be the center of attention. Youd think that if Harley had it, she'd be obsessed with usurping joker as the leader of the gang.
I actually don't agree that modern Harley makes this better. I think it makes it worse. This version of Harley had SO MUCH potential, the ultimate tragedy of her was what she was and what she wasn't allowed to be, but what she was clearly capable of if things just went different for her. Modern Harley is an exemplar of modern DC's brand ideology when it comes to women. Shallow "Girl Power" moves that have no substance, that don't develop the character beyond having them shout slogans or deal exclusively with cartoonish misogyny, that flatten them out into the most marketable kind of feminism - the kind of feminism that only exists so DC can say they're doing it. And sadly in Harley's case - the kind of feminism that is exclusively nodding in the direction of white women while excluding everyone else. I am never gonna stop being sad that Harley left the Joker in this way, that she met her potential in such a... disappointing, flat, frankly cynical fashion. The only reason it happened at all was because the Arkham Games got backlash for being so misogynistic, specifically with regards to HER character, that DC corrected in the way they always do - making assumptions about what women need or want without having women really as part of the development process.
yeah I personally feel she is one of those characters that can only truly shine if they are a secondary/side character rather than a main character of a series, and her character was the most interesting as this tragic figure. Sometimes a character can actually loose what makes them special if they are turned into the main character of their own series. Additionally, I hate how a lot of the comics where she "breaks free from joker" involve her still being a super villain and have her acting like a zanny, funny, goofball. like you said it feels shallow, they say she's finally broken free of joker but they still want to keep her as a villain/have her act like a goofy funny clown, so it doesn't feel like she has really broken away.
@@christopherauzenne5023 honestly that's not what I'm saying at all but your opinion is valid. I think she absolutely CAN work as a main character - I've seen people do it, it's one of those instances where fanworks end up being better than canon material. The issue isn't really her being a main character or breaking free of the Joker, the issue is that DC made her their resident "Edgy Girl-Power Character"... while being a company that is tremendously sexist, and has historically never really cared what women think. The reason she always feels so hollow when she's by herself these days is because she's almost always being written with the editorial oversight of "She has to be empowering to women but only in a way that's marketable to men." IE: they don't talk about the abuse so much anymore, they don't talk about the complicated aspects of misogyny, they don't talk about the stuff that would actually develop her character because DC only cares about marketing itself to usually white usually conservative usually older men. But if Harley is this big, bombastic "Girl Power" character with no substance, they can use her to pretend they care about what women think, and score points for being 'progressive' without ever needing to BE progressive. Hell - BTAS was more progressive than something like Harley TAS is.
Everytime I watch this sort of videos I feel like a part of me died. I feel like Harley died. I feel like everything is over now, because this isn't my life. Life was watching Batman fight goofy villains. Life was loving Robin more than anything because he was my age. Life was realizing how much kids' show have to tell us about people and our world. Life was connecting to TV more than I ever did to the real world. And this is quite funny, because I am not an adult. I am still what most would consider a child. This can still be my life, but in a way it just isn't. I have so much things to deal with and I honestly don't want to. I hate growing up because life goes on after we have more to do besides playing in the sand and watching cartoons, and I just don't wanna let go from this. If I got to choose my life would be watching Batman: The Animated Series while laughing at the silly parts and crying at the heartbreaking ones. I wish I could live like this.
![What Arkham Batman ACTUALLY would've done here [Animated]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kHi5qtM19Dw/mqdefault.jpg)
One aspect of Harley that I find the most interesting in her modern depictions is her overall trajectory between good and evil. Harley is very flawed, mentally unstable, deadly even, but she's also compassionate and seems to have a morale compass especially to people she considers her friends or people she personally considers off-limits, often children. As a result, modern portrayals of Harley can range between having her becoming a good guy, anti-hero, part of Batman's inner circle (Injustice or Harley Quinn cartoon), versus Harley becoming completely villainous but her own person, like in Gotham Knights. She has so many nuances that can get muddled that she really has no clear path, which can make her very interesting if done right.
You could say that her future, in parallel to Joker’s past, is “multiple choice”
@Raymond Fisher III I think it's intresting how Harley seems to be completely shaped around the story being told everytime she appears, she's like a chameleon or mr mxyzptlk
In the Injustice comic that features Jon Kent, Harley personally walked up to Jon and apologized for the part she played in the death of Lois and the premature death of Jon in her universe completely unprompted, to which he was not receptive and forgiving initially, and her explanation really sheds a light on how she views her activities with Joker:
"It was Superman, you know? He always find a way. I just thought it was a game. I didn't think Joker would win."
Despite her very outwardly seeking the guy's approval when he was alive, she never truly wanted the same things Joker did. She doesn't particularly care for the senseless violence, the platitudes of a mad society, or gettin one over the caped heroes. To her, it was always just a game, one she wasn't seriously committed to winning. In fact, on some level she was banking on Batman or Superman winning. And it took being on the winning side for once for it to sink in that it wasn't a game.
More recently the problem that most iterations of modern Harley Quinn run into is rather than the nuance of her original encounter with The Joker which did involve manipulation on his part but also choices on hers because there was more going on there. It was more than just wanting to fix him, which was part of it. It was also her being drawn to him as he was and some of the intimate places that he employes unlocks dark spots of her that were already present and dormant but that she likes. She came to enjoy being Harley Quinn striking on her own numerous times and wreaking havoc and even away from The Joker originally she still remained a villain by choice. There was a darkness to Harley as juxtaposed buy her fuzz and bubbly personality. But that did not mean that she was completely nice and a pushover or that she wasn't herself an emotional manipulator. There are layers there and sometimes some got caught up on the fact that she was so pleasant that for some reason she must be naive or silly. That was never how they used to portray her. She was extremely clever in some arenas but not in others. This story along with the Harleen book in no way does what many comics often do which is cast aside all of this for a reductive and simplified "HARLEY VICTIM" "JOKER BAD" "HARLEY GOOD" "HARLEY ESCAPE" "HARLEY EMPOWERED WOMAN". Harley's tale can definitely be that of an empowerment but it was still one even while she was with The Joker, not because she was with him but because she's a complete character. She's a strong female character because a true strong character is one that is truly fleshed out even if they are flawed. Harley always stood out because the narrative always forced the reader or viewer to ask the question why would someone want to be with a monster, what did that say about her. You felt bad for Harley but at the same time acknowledged she was no innocent shrinking violet.
Agreed Harley is really a deep dive into the psyche of a person who craves the darkness but also gets punished by it.
@@mandalorianhunter1 Which is why my favorite modern Harley Quinn is the one from the White Knight universe.
You did it, you explained the very concept of Harley Quinn, and how she has been deconstructed and mess up from that point on until now!
@@The_Phantasm oh I will look that up
Except excluding the birds of prey movie Harley is still regarded as bad. But sure let's just act like geeks and gamers and whine that everything is "woke" and flat out lie.
I always forget how much her accent comes out, once she’s fully embraced the persona of Harley Quinn.
Arleen Sorkin used it very subtly, whether like a person who practices getting rid of a thick accent, in the belief that it would hurt their career path, or as part of the character she becomes, believing Joker would love it.
It’s an excellent voice acting performance
Don't see many kids oriented media warning people about the dangers of manipulative and abusive relationships. And from the popularity of the Joker/Harley pairing in pop culture, most people missed the message.
Nah we the people get it, unlike you, who is probably a virgin. Me and my girl? We're basically Joker and Harley Q, always making each other laugh and getting into trouble, having our ups and downs like any partners in crime. {:-)
Dude, I remember back in the early 2010s that that ship was being marketed everywhere, t-shirts, posters and what not. Kind of fucked that even for a small while they merchandised an abusive couple in a positive way.
Remember when Suicide Squad first came out, and #relationshipgoals was unironically trending in relation to Harley and Joker?
People miss the point of harley, especially people on tiktok
Several hundred years later and people are still missing the fact that Romeo and Juliet aren't meant to be relationship goals either, so I'm not surprised.
I mean for fucks sake, there's that one pop song where she asks Jupiter to bless her relationship - in the most perfectly incandescent idiot move, just obscure enough that I'm almost convinced it's a joke, this girl asks ***ZEUS*** to make sure her and her boyfriend hook up.
Folk just don't know what they're watching
Every fangirl who says "I want a relationship like Joker and Harley" should be made to watch Mad Love. Then they'll learn they don't want a relationship like that.
“I want a relationship like joker and Harley!”
Nah mate, you mean Ivy and Harley. The fact they didn’t use that as marketing is a crime.
@@jacksonhopp2003 lol nah. Every fangirl should read Batman: Harley and Ivy where Harley throws a plant at Batman to help them escape, and Poison Ivy abuses her and tries to kill her because she cares more about the plant than Harley.
@@flochforster7864
True.
Facts.
Yeah, it's almost like it's avoidance culture propaganda designed to erase the damage our expectation that others come long on emotional labour is doing.
From the twins' "Nana Harley" appearing at the end of _The Return of the Joker,_ it took Joker dying for her to finally start making a life for her own. But sadly still not until she had participated in the final outrage of breaking the mind of Tim Drake.
You left out the best part of Batman rubbing in Harley''s almost victory!
Batman: "She got a lot close than you ever did. _Puddin'_"
NOn joker his better harley
Harley having HPD, makes so much sense regarding her personality, she wanted to be in Arkham, first as a Doctor, drawn to the darker side of human personalities. she thought her personality was stronger than his, and he gaslit and manipulated her. he broke her, and she's become an addict to his personality. because she thought she could save him! the fact that this happened in an animated show. wow
Hpd?
@@nyes4596 Hyperactive Personality Disorder, or in this case, ADHD/Borderline Personality Disorder
Isn't it Histrionic Personality Disorder?
A prime time childrens cartoon from the 90's, even more so.
Modern Harley Quinn is exactly what she is, she's been watered down and sanitized and even stripped of her costume and what made her special to begin with which was being both an accessory and a metaphor to that accessory of the joker, she could never quite escape his shadow and so there had to have been a journey of her rediscovering her identity, even her voice is pitched up to be more clownish and happy when in actuality the real Harleen Quinzel was more serious and if the comic serves as an example she was a seductress.
You can really only roll with her being the Joker's abuse-victim/henchwoman for so long really. Eventually the luster of her oh so tragic backstory will fade away and the reader will feel no sympathy for her. She assists in murder, torture, and mutilation. If she wares out her sympathy card, what is she? A basic bitch henchwoman who just "used to" have potential for reform? At that point where you don't try anything else, you may as well have the Joker kill her as far as she'll ever grow or change.
Having her role change to a person who won't be abused anymore is interesting. I don't think it's been perfectly done. PERSONALLY, I'd have tried to use her as a platform to show that Batman ideally wants to reform and help his broken villains; maybe have Harley well and truly reform. These days they still keep her a villain/anti-hero and it can be interesting, because she is a good analogy for showing someone breaking the cycle of abuse but keeping her a villain is a stupid idea.
@@Nightman221k if you don't show her origin or her going through that change then by that same logic we can simply not show batman, superman, wonder woman or any other heroes origin much less her fall into that cycle. The things you just described are all done in the show in a small 28 minute format, sometimes for an episode and much later when she's struck it alone and has grandkids.
If you don't show that then your not showing her journey from villain to anti hero, if you don't create that sympathy instead going into a character with no proper background then you risk her becoming a Mary sue and becoming just another one of the bunch like most of the DC heroes that aren't given that level of detail and attention, story telling is a journey and whatever direction it goes you have to take the audience with you every step of the way.
As an old school BTAS fan, I definitely think Harleen is a sympathetic character who is capable of redemption. The thing that I dislike about modern adaptations is that I don’t understand why she needs to stay Harley. Harley Quinn was a creation of the joker, a way in which he messed with her head and made her like him. The best thing about the white knight continuity is that, when she came to her senses, Harleen Quinnzel took off her make up and walked away. I get that she has a great design and is very marketable, but there’s something very sad about that keeping her trapped in the garb chosen by her abuser.
The way I see it is that the jester Harley was all joker because that’s all she was to him, a fool. The joker thought he broke down Harley and the joke was on her but she technically created herself, she decided to be his clown and she realized that the joke was on him because now she’s stronger, more courageous and more confident in herself than she’s ever been and that’s all thanks to joker for unleashing her true self, he had power over her but she decided to take that power and make it her strength, she embraces her clown persona and with her own twist to show she’s no longer his fool and that what once was his is now a better version of hers.
@@phenomskllz2502 I can see that reasoning and I kind of get it, but in the meta she is still playing dress-up in her abuser’s aesthetic. Keeping her in the harlequin get up keeps her inseparable from the joker, no matter how many stories they try to tell without him. Until she ditches the gimmick, she will always just be the second most important clown in Gotham.
@@phenomskllz2502 Harley is the one who chose the jester outfit, she stole it herself without Joker telling her to. It was her way of embracing the new criminal persona.
@@hrishiv27 Except her outfit is wildly different now and in the live action ones it is ever changing.
She has her hair out instead of in a hat, blonde with some light red + blue dye unlike the blood red + black of her old outfit. Her outfit is still red + black in the animated show but now she wears more modern fashion as a crop top + shorts. Her outfit is a lot less contained, and she will more often wear different outfits based on the setting.
In S3 she even comments on her old outfit in S3 as being so limiting for her obsession with the Joker.
arleen sorkin is truly harley much like kevin conroy is batman and mark hamill is joker
the subtle inflections and just the way she speaks is so pleasing to the ears, my favorite harley line ever is when she says "nice guys like you shouldnt have bad days"
yeah seriously she does not get talked about enough, like no offense to the current voice actors for the character but her voice and inflections are just too perfect for the character and can't be matched, like the character was Literally designed after her/a role she played, (I think my person problem with the modern voice acting for her is that for her accent they either overdo it or don't do it at all)
@@christopherauzenne5023 i completely agree with you, the current harley voices lean way too heavily into the "ditzy" kind of accent or just is all sass and not a lot of subtlety, it really lacks the human touch and the depth arleen brought to harley an the myriad of emotions both soft and intense with the combination of writing and voice direction to bring out the best of it
To be fair Harley Quinn was designed & based off Arleen Sorkin, so it makes sense she’d be the perfect role. I miss hearing that voice in more modern DC media, but I think Harley’s voice actress in the Batman(2004) did a fairly good job at replicating it with a bit of original stuff thrown in too.
This was definitely one of the best episodes of the DCAU. Helped Made Harley into the icon she is today imo.
To me harley is just one of those person who was just bored with their monotonous life to the point where anything that would make their heart race no matter how deadly it was would be treated as a way to obtain true happiness.
Kinda sound like the suspending bridge effect with the joker being the bridge.
While we're on the topic of modern Harley, there's something that really stood out about this that is kinda reflected in Harley. I've noticed in some interpretations, it went for the narrative that Harley was kinda already messed up in the head before she met joker, like in that one episode in the Harley Quinn show where they enter her mind and see her messed up past. At first I thought this was just to make Harley seem more independent from the joker, but looking back at it after this video, it kinda makes sense. Harley was never okay, she probably would've become a super villain even if she never met joker, and it ties in really well with the idea of Harley's potential if she struck out on her own like she did in mad love.
No sane person falls in love with the joker after a sob story. Harley was guliable and niave. Any person who gets tricked like that and commits felony's after wards is not ok in the head
It also explains how she broke free. It can't be overstated that Poison Ivy is a huge part of Harley breaking free. Whereas Joker got him addicted to his personality and "love", Pam gave her genuine love and friendship, and in doing so broke the Joker's monopoly on the supply of needed affection Harley had access to. Pam gives her someone she can be with who isn't the Joker that gives her love but also security and a healthy intimacy. I'm not sure Harley ever fully breaks free without her.
This was why I loved the Gotham City Sirens comics. Both Catwoman and Poison Ivy were there to help Harley slowly pull herself away from Joker
Ivy uses/has used Harley as well. Just because they're relationship is emotionally and not physically abusive, Ivy always gets a pass. (And the fact that people will gladly turn a blind eye to abuse in same sex couples.)
@@1SpicyMeataball Ivy tends to "get that pass" because unlike Joker, Ivy grew as a character. Harley helped Ivy change and become a better person . Yes Ivy emotionally manipulated, and abused Harley there is no denying that, but she also stopped doing it, she evolved and grew to be more supportive and kind towards Harley. This is why Gotham City Sirens was such a good series.
@@1SpicyMeataball I take it according to the original DCAU iteration of their friendship where Pam was uniformly just a good friend. Harley became by far her strongest connection to her humanity, and Pam unlike later comic book versions (which I didn't read when they first came out) basically did her best to pull her away from the world's worst psycho.
Poison Ivy is a misandric terrorist, I don't think she is the best influence...
I think you missed one thing about the Batman's train-top conversation with the Joker. It always seemed to me that the Batman was playing the Joker fully as much as he had earlier played Harley.
Everyone has a weakness. Joker's weakness (one of many, no doubt) is in his ego. The Batman is good at observing and utilizing the weaknesses of his enemies, and realizes that he can practically disarm the Joker by bombshelling him with the near-success of Harley's kill-the-Bat attempt. Was he anywhere near as helpless as he led both of them to believe? I don't think so -- but an unreasonably angry enemy is a stupid enemy, and the Batman wants all of his enemies stupid.
The best way to control someone is with the truth. He does that to both of them.
I do think that Batman wouldn't have been killed by Harley. Not enough. But judging by Batman's words. He does see potential in Harley to kill him down the lane. Because well she got him all tied down by herself. And might even have injured him. Which is more than what Joker has ever achieved to do. Despite his loud yappings. So. A best lie is always somewhat the truth . Imo.
As someone in abusive relationship I understand why harlequin keeps coming back. that little gesture of "kindness" tells us they care and are sorry even tho we know deep down it doesn't.
I think joker’s greatest joke to the relationship was how he, in some extent, fooled a lot of people. Even the viewers. Shoutout to all the pairs that wore The Joker and Harley costumes/merch
His greatest joke was convincing us he was smart before Harley Quinn came around.
Man I hate what her writing did to this show.
That’s why I don’t like modern Harley, it glosses over her also being a horrible person and almost equally maniacal. So she can be a hero who hooks up with a plant lady who hates all of humanity. None of that makes sense. She breaks up with joker and is all of a sudden a well developed but traumatized human. As if she didn’t have screws loose that drew her to joker
thank you
Hating humanity is actually not that bad at all😭
Homegirl probably checked twitter for a few minutes and decided that humans had to go💀
The fact that Batman flinched at Joker backhanding Harley hit where it hurts. Batman, who has seen countless brutalities and never blinked
I still remember how I felt when Harley was in Arkham at the end, opened that letter, and interrupts herself when she was scrutinizing Joker to say "a little angel" and that left me speechless. What a tragic portrayal of Stockholm Syndrome.
It's not exactly Stockholm syndrom, she has histrionic trouble and she's obsessed with the Joker because he's a criminal.
People who unironically view Joker and Harley's relationship as romantic or something to aspire to make me very worried
People nowadays say that Harley (in all media) has no nuance, but the truth is she lost a lot of it over the years. The tragic nature of the character has been lost. It's the opposite of Jinx, who was just a manic character on introduction, but in Arcane, she is anything but one dimensional (I was watching a video comparing the two, and the comments all talked about Harley as if she has zero nuance, which, while somewhat understandable nowadays, is kind of sad).
yeah I feel to many writers don't fully get the character and end up viewing her as just her character aesthetics, she is a clown girl so a lot of them just have her be a zanny, screwball, so random character which takes away a lot of her depth as a tale of tragedy. I also personally feel she is one of those characters who can only truly shine when they are not the spotlight. some characters work amazingly as side/secondary characters but shouldn't be the main character of a story (the main example that comes to mind is "planet sheen"). I do think some characters shouldn't be main characters and that's not an insult because being a side character might be much better for them in the long run.
Yes, I agree that Harley Quinn works best as a side character or as a main character within a group (ex. Suicide Squad), especially when she’s the comic relief character in the show/movie.
Well tbh, I don't think anything is lost y'know. Like back in the day. I don't think there were many who understood the deeper implications of fiction. I still don't think many do. It's just that bad adaptations with good production are taking over . The ones who truly saw were rare and indeed still are. Like let's look at this video. Though it's not much. There are still lakhs of people who see the deeper implications of things. And branch of it.
It's not lost . It rather rejuvenating. Like if being honest. Lakhs is a lot in comparison to previous generations.
Well my point is that. I think that in reality, there are more people looking for deeper things. And if I find the right content and right people. It will compound and multiply.
So don't let the ignorant loudmouths get you down. I believe in my reality. And so should you. Like this video in itself is the prime example of this.
All that remains is getting us to the mainstream. Which isn't too far off
Harley was easily my favorite character growing up. The evolution of her character over the years is really amazing tbh.
Do you remember in like 2017 when some casuals discovered Harley Quinn due to the Suicide Squad film and described her relationship to the Joker as "relationship goals" 😅?
Yeah.... I like to pretend that didn't happen
I remember the v e r y clever visual story telling of having a tattoo on his forehead that said Damaged.
"All the subtlety and nuance of a napalm enema." - Joker, Arkham Knight
I want to see modern Harley lean into her interest in abusive relationships. I want to see her swear off of them and then jump into another one. Her relationship with Ivy isn't always great either, but the crux of the character described in Mad Love was that she had a particular attraction and interest in the criminally insane. If there were more solo outings of Harley, I'd like to see her battling and combatting that internally. Use a framing device so we can get her psychiatrist persona as Dr. Quinzel to talk to us as a reliable narrator, and maybe juxtapose in her own criminally insane persona of Harley, and maybe they're constantly at odds and that gives us a feeling of inner conflict as we move through the story and finally gets a resolution right before the climax of whatever the story on screen is. I crave a character driven story for Harley, not just a suicide squad movie that features her. We got close with Birds of Prey, but I think with new direction at DC that we can do better.
This was a really enjoyable analysis, for me the primary lure of Harley was that intrinsic need to help/fix how damaged the character is from primarily moments like this. Thanks for the great breakdown!
Also Aileen Sorkin's performance is a lot more subtle than subsequent actors have demonstrated.
I love this series so much
This episode traumatized me as a kid, and it is still uncomfortable to watch because it is such a disturbing and accurate portrayal of an abusive relationship. Ever since I first saw the scene where Joker pushed Harley out of that window, I wanted to see her character become free of him and now she has.
I just wish modern portrayals would do a better job at showing how abusive the relationship was. The Snyderverse didn't show it at all. Honestly the perfect Harley Quinn story would start off like Mad Love to show the abusive relationship, how it developed, how HArley became a villain, her dark side, and how she became completely infatuated and in love with the Joker. And then eventually (maybe years later) we could see her recovering and reforming in a realistic way before she goes out on her own with Poison Ivy. Either way the Harley Quinn show is a better watch if you watch Mad Love first and pretend it's in the same canyon as her show. It makes her arc feel whole.
Honestly this might have been a bit nicer to Harley than comic Mad Love. Not by much, but at least it didn’t suggest she slept with a professor to improve her grades.
Taking that out was a good idea. I think that most people who resonate with Harley's origin like to think that she was at one point in her life serious about the study of criminal psychology and had a degree of talent for psychology rather than just being a bimbo who slept her way through school.
I find it funny when people look at Joker and Harley's relationship and think it's unrealistic for someone to fall in love with a manipulative sociopath that has committed several murders and terrorist acts when people are out here simping for real life murderers because they're hot or "misunderstood".
Taking this quick opportunity to say I've been watching your essays on the DCAU, one of my favorite animated universes that comes to mind.
If you ever watched Project Zeta, there lies a good material about the pursuit of identity, purpose, character and family, both from Z's perspective and from Ro's as well.
I'm so glad I stumbled across you man. Finding someone else who genuinely cares about these characters give their perspective in such a well done video gives me goosebumps. Keep doing what you're doing and you've got a fan for life.
I made a comment on a video about the DeeDee twins from Batman Beyond, and I wondered what Harley thought about her grandchildren being part of a gang that glorified her abuser, and a reply from someone thought they weren't portrayed as abusive in the DCAU and as such wouldn't care, and i just couldn't fathom how they thought that.
Harley truly is just a tool that Joker uses for his self benefit
True but let’s not forget that she did have choices, even after being separated from the joker she stayed as Harley Quinn, why? Because Joker didn’t just manipulate her, he revealed her true self, Harley Quinn was always inside Harleen which a lot of modern interpretations seem to miss, yes she was manipulated, but no she wasn’t naive she was actually really clever and even manipulative herself but it was hidden under he bubbly exterior.
So Modern Harley is the natural evolution of Mad Love to Mad Respect
To be fair, there are actually parts of the DCAU that deal with Harley Quinn's reformation. There's an episode where she tries to go straight & Batman buys her a dress, she's anti-Jokerz in Return of ths Joker, & in Batman & Harley Quinn, she's recently put crime behind her.
And in Batman Beyond she completely changed her life after Joker died
That’s not gonna change the fact that she actively helped in the mental degradation of Tim Drake (a child btw) years later.
It fills my heart that people have serious conversations about this tv show made for kids and teens, I loved this show when I first saw it and I love it even more now that I can understand the subtext
Growing up watching this original version of Harley I had a similar view and understanding of the modern character that you came into seeing. I definitely never analysed it to your extent but especially while watching the newer cartoon, need to check out the newer season, but I found it fun as an exploration to what her character has become in modern stylings while also showing some form of growth you generally only ever see in one off movies/comics that isn't mentioned again at least as far as some characters are concerned.
Anyway another awesome video!
My heart skips a beat everytime I see that you uploaded, I am fascinated by your analysis's.
She seems like the kind of kid who was so smart that she skipped a few grades. Smart enough to be there, but lacking the emotional intelligence that comes with age, leaving her vulnerable to a persuasive experienced man.
I never on board with the while quickly assuming someone has stolkhome syndrome for sympatizing with their captor. In some cases, those are just things that "happened". Same goals, different mothods. Yet, when the two met, they're bound to have some sort of agreement, even as enemy. Someone became villain because of trauma, Others became Hero because of trauma. They related. Even in real life. I thought that's what super heroes is all about. I'm not talking about Harley queen, but I think it can be brought into all super heroes context.
I really do think batman was sweet in the comic to honestly give Harley a reality check and reason with her that the joker is narrastic and is mantiplutive.
love this video very much. harley is my favorite dc character and im excited to see you explore her more. seeing her grow over the course of the various dc properties has been wonderful
Oooh boy! Time to learn about the intricacies and nuances of yet another Animated Superhero show! One of my favorite things to do!
Do the Barbara and Bruce video already!
Mad Love is definitely the darkest half hour of kids television ever. Only comparable to a couple episodes of Hey Arnold. I still can't believe they perfectly showed the patterns of an abusive relationship.
Harley is a Woman caught in between a relationship of two Men which is in itself so historied and complex it's hard to decipher reason from it in the first place. It be like placing yourself at the center of a whirlpool of course you're gonna get pulled under the waves of such a powerful tide.
Well when it's become a running your boyfriend wants to plow the guy in what's basically a gimp suit. Yeah she's in trouble
@@dbzcupcake No, Bane's the one with the gimp suit.
I think you would love Batman: White Knight. It's a great book that alters some of the history of Harley Quinn to honestly make it more compelling. Highly recommend
Joker is gay for batman and Harley is his beard. 👋
I keep seeing a lot of people say her modern iterations lack nuance, but at least in the things I've seen, she still remains a complicated nuanced character, usually just futher down the line in her journey.
How I wish that the DC movies could grasp the essence of the DCAU.
it's a bit realistic because some people are obsessed with people who don't love or even care about them.
I love harley's more recent depictions, i am so so glad it seems to be becoming a rule rather than an exception
The badass bisexual who beats up bad guys and dates the hottest ecoterrist
what's not to like?
But also, she sends a...rather hopeful message about mental illness
in a media where we're the depressed turned insane or suicidal, the bipolar turned maniac, the antisocial turned...well... _points at the joker_
She gives a good message that mentall illness doesn't make us monster
That mental illness isn't our fault, but it is our responsability
That, with people that love and support us, we can change
About escaping bad situations
About finding your happiness in the people around you
And that even from the darkest, deepest pit, there is hope of escape, of being a better person
And looking hella good while doing it
I really love Harley now, she's part of my trio of favorites of this genre (other two being Spiderman and Kamala Khan)
I liked the then of Joker’s “Always taking shots from folks who just don’t get the joke” As a way for him to emotionally manipulate Harley. When it says it in the flashback it’s to make himself sympathetic and build the image that he’s a damaged, abused boy that needs her help. Than he used it again in present day to emotionally destroy her and tear this image down to revel that he’s always just been this bad deep down.
You don't have end every video on a joke just to relieve tension, it's fine to be genuine sometimes.
Harley came the closest out of all of Batman's roster to getting him- and he had no choice but to play dirty
So every guy who says they want to have a relationship dynamic as joker and Harley. Shouldn’t have a relationship to begin with
She was finally free the time Tim Joker Junior shot Joker dead.
I wonder if she ever found out what happened to him
She actively helped in Tim’s mental torture. She’ll never be free from that guilt.
I'd buy that modern movie Harley was a progression from her animated start if Suicide Squad hadn't, as you said, sanitized her story with the Joker.
That is still the #1 thing that infuriated me about that movie. It could have clearly established how twisted their relationship was, but for some hellish reason they wanted to make it feel "cool" and "glamorous" and marketable, and imply that oh, Joker actually does care a lot about her! Feels like it then left the Birds of Prey movie to basically clean up its mess.
@@Semudara yeah except it still doesn't delve into the dynamic of their relationship only from Harleys point of view. "Oh he broke up with me but I'll never tell you why" it's like really? They are so afraid of showing Joker and Harleys relationship in its true form and for what merchandise sales? If your gonna tell Joker and Harleys relationship don't sugar coat it tell it in its raw purest form. Ugly messy horrifying and toxic. Harleys tale is a tragic cautionary one and it's really sad.
"I wanted to end it on a joke, but I couldn't think of anything."
It's Mad Love, It's probably better to not end on a joke.
Another thing about this episode is imagine if joker found out that Harley actually made Batman laugh 😬, He'd have done a helluva lot more than just slap her & push her out a window
Leaving a comment for the algorithm gods!
There's nothing I love more than psychology meets pop culture. I absolutely love the deep, dark dives you've been doing.
The thing about Harley is that between her debut in the DCAU and modern interpretations, she had decades of comic-verse character development. Like a real-world abuse victim, she had her slow realizations, her moments of hope, her backslides, and her chances to finally move on. She rooms with Ivy and Selina while expecting to return to Joker, she has a kid by him that she knows he can't find out about because "his work is too important," and she finally gets a new boyfriend and beats the crap out of her old one (which was him manipulating her so he could escape). Cramming that into a couple movies, or having that realization come all at once, is what takes away the nuance and has people crying "Character derailment!" But, yeah, the backbone of her character was always there. Great commentary and presentation, as always!
I like the new Harley Quinn, Punch line.
She is everything Harley only pretended to be.
You know something it's interesting that Joker still gets loved and applauded despite his abuse of Harley while Hank Pym was damned because he hit Janet one time, that was a miscommunication between the writer and artist. It's funny the double standards don't apply to Joker, yes he is a villain but Hank was going through a mental breakdown while becoming Yellow jacket.
Just a thought.
It was interesting how this show cased domestic abuse and toxic relationships but to some people it was normalized. This episode is sad but showed us that some people in the world are like Joker.
And you are one of them
@@justtheguywiththewavecheck6244 always that one comment from a profile that never commented on anything before
I think it might be cause of what people are used to of a character, hanks supposed to be a hero so they have higher standards of him even though there's a lot more he's done than that. And joker is a bad guy so they just accept he's gonna do bad things, plus Harley is incredibly doting on joker so people see that level of affection and think they've got something special without looking at the bigger picture.
@CRAgamer Hank at least tried to redeem himself, but Joker never redeemed himself and only got worse, but the mindless fanboys will continue to kiss his ass and condem Pym.
@@zemox2534 agreed
Hank was going through a mental breakdown because of everything happening in his life to not being appreciated and finding out his creation has become one of the most enduring villains in all of Marvel, Ultron
Bro this episode broke me
(Fyi: some verbal abuse stuff) I watched this video and realized exactly why I always related to Harley so much. It wasn't because we shared the abuse, the love of comedy and psychology, and the NY accent. It was because she saw the pain in someone else's trauma and tried to help them and was abused and left a fool as a result. I paused the video when my dad came home from work, and it all hit me. He started to verbally cut into me like he always does, and my eyes just went to Harleys crying face in the thumbnail. I starred shaking so hard I couldn't stand up right. He left the room briefly and I turned the lights off and tried to hide from him, but he came back into the room just to find me, to yell at me, because he knew I cared enough to believe I was the bad guy so he could get that dopamine boost of the day. I bolted and am now hiding in a closet as I'm writing this. Its been the same song and dance for 15+ years. If it wasn't for comics, animation and films, I'd never have had the gift of clarity and validation in situations like the one I'm in as easily. But unlike these fictional characters, that isnt always enough. You can't always get away. Abuse is a nightmare but also underdiscussed. People still fail to understand Harley's complexity. And to think her character only was made for a cake gag.. anyway, brilliant vid as always.
Like Nora Freeze and Lex Luthor, this story *is* Harley Quinn and a lot of modern itenerations of her really don't get that.
I feel like most batman villians can be redeemed. If they were actually worked towards being recouped and such. For example, in the Harley Quinn show there's a episode where she and ivy gets thrown into THE PIT, a prison watched by bane after joker takes over Gotham after batman's death. Everybody in there actually decided to be "good" and do recreational activities. Ya know redeem themselves for their crimes. Villians like croc actually attempted to be good.
Or course they all ended up becoming bad again so she can get out ya ya, but I feel it shows the potential for them to be good.
Histrionic personality disorder doesn't fit right. She didn't need to be the center of attention, that was Joker's deal, and she was happy to let him do that. I think codependency was her issue. She built her life around Joker, and enabled him. The problem came when her attempts at enabling were too successful and drew attention away from him. Otherwise, a great video.
The fact some people idolize their relationship is crazy.
I've just discovered your videos yesterday, and I'm binging them nonstop since.
*HELP*
Even though I wasn't a big fan of most of the designs in season 4 I will admit the animated series overall had some absolute brilliant idea's,Character's and episode's in general
I honestly never fully understood how joker was able to get Harley to change and have control over her like that. I felt it was just a plot hole I had to except that he played mind games but you really broke it down and it all makes way more sense maybe I never really put in time to look up how but great video!! Always explain things in a fun and interesting way!!!
Your content is amazing as usual! Also I'm really looking forward to the introspection of Mercy Graves. She's really interesting and I want to hear your thoughts and opinions of her dedication to Lex. Also I can't wait to see the title. lol
It's tragic when you think about it. The Harley Quinn live action film could have been awesome.
The wierd part is i was just watching this friday with a few friends XD
Cant move on from someone because I knew a lot about her, and her sob story. Loved her deeply, enpathized with her.
Despite learning that she played me, two-timing me with someone else. I still loved her, and understand why she is like that most likely to her past.
But.
I realized I became the Harley and she's the Joker.
Maybe what I felt was real, was all a joke to her.
You know it's rather sad when the modern interpretations of Harley Quinn are sanitized versions of the kids cartoon, even though they're rated R or PG-13.
I see it as too many writers are just writing her as what they think she's like based on her aesthetics/design. "she is a clown girl so she must be super silly and whacky" stuff like that
I absolutely love your videos and the way you summarize everything thanks !😊
Ivy is a much better lover for Harley than Joker.
I really like Harley in the Injustice comics, she's funny has an emotional story-line in the first book, and is really needed comics relief after they kill green arrow and nightwing
The modern takes on Harley are beyond simplistic and actively go against the original theme of the character. She is both a victim and a monster partly due to the Joker's affect on her as well as herself having gotten into the twisted relationship of her own free will. She was not a good person before the Joker got his hooks in her but she was not utterly evil or warped like him. She is a warning that your choices are not just made by you but can make you as well and she is to be both worthy of pitty for her plight but also feared for she is very much a monster of her Puddin's making. This gives her a depth you lose when she is just a female version of the Joker who goes "boss babe" and leaves him to do her own thing. Much how Mr. Freeze is enriched having his motives Harley is as well from the lot in life she partly got herself into making the viewer sympathize with the devil as it were.
mad love was such a great story
Obligatory "not a psychologist" but like... I went and looked up hpd and it seemed to fit pretty well, except for the part about needing to be the center of attention.
Youd think that if Harley had it, she'd be obsessed with usurping joker as the leader of the gang.
This episode is such a masterpiece one of the best episodes, what a way to end Batman TAS
Something i liked about Harley was that even if she ends up with ivy. Ivy is exactly the same but with out the fake love that joker gives
I actually don't agree that modern Harley makes this better. I think it makes it worse. This version of Harley had SO MUCH potential, the ultimate tragedy of her was what she was and what she wasn't allowed to be, but what she was clearly capable of if things just went different for her.
Modern Harley is an exemplar of modern DC's brand ideology when it comes to women. Shallow "Girl Power" moves that have no substance, that don't develop the character beyond having them shout slogans or deal exclusively with cartoonish misogyny, that flatten them out into the most marketable kind of feminism - the kind of feminism that only exists so DC can say they're doing it. And sadly in Harley's case - the kind of feminism that is exclusively nodding in the direction of white women while excluding everyone else.
I am never gonna stop being sad that Harley left the Joker in this way, that she met her potential in such a... disappointing, flat, frankly cynical fashion. The only reason it happened at all was because the Arkham Games got backlash for being so misogynistic, specifically with regards to HER character, that DC corrected in the way they always do - making assumptions about what women need or want without having women really as part of the development process.
yeah I personally feel she is one of those characters that can only truly shine if they are a secondary/side character rather than a main character of a series, and her character was the most interesting as this tragic figure. Sometimes a character can actually loose what makes them special if they are turned into the main character of their own series.
Additionally, I hate how a lot of the comics where she "breaks free from joker" involve her still being a super villain and have her acting like a zanny, funny, goofball. like you said it feels shallow, they say she's finally broken free of joker but they still want to keep her as a villain/have her act like a goofy funny clown, so it doesn't feel like she has really broken away.
@@christopherauzenne5023 honestly that's not what I'm saying at all but your opinion is valid. I think she absolutely CAN work as a main character - I've seen people do it, it's one of those instances where fanworks end up being better than canon material. The issue isn't really her being a main character or breaking free of the Joker, the issue is that DC made her their resident "Edgy Girl-Power Character"... while being a company that is tremendously sexist, and has historically never really cared what women think. The reason she always feels so hollow when she's by herself these days is because she's almost always being written with the editorial oversight of "She has to be empowering to women but only in a way that's marketable to men." IE: they don't talk about the abuse so much anymore, they don't talk about the complicated aspects of misogyny, they don't talk about the stuff that would actually develop her character because DC only cares about marketing itself to usually white usually conservative usually older men. But if Harley is this big, bombastic "Girl Power" character with no substance, they can use her to pretend they care about what women think, and score points for being 'progressive' without ever needing to BE progressive. Hell - BTAS was more progressive than something like Harley TAS is.
U have to appreciate just how ingenious the DCAU was in particular BTAS. Never play mind games with neither Joker nor Batman as u will get destroyed
I was just thinking about how you had all these great videos but no love for Harley. I'd love to see you cover Harley's Holiday.
Harry Kane couldn't bury a penalty to save his life.
Dude, I've been binging all your vids. This channel is fantastic!
Surprised you didn’t mention the parallels with Harley & Joker relationship & how real life women fall for serial killers
You have a legendary intro song.
Everytime I watch this sort of videos I feel like a part of me died. I feel like Harley died. I feel like everything is over now, because this isn't my life. Life was watching Batman fight goofy villains. Life was loving Robin more than anything because he was my age. Life was realizing how much kids' show have to tell us about people and our world. Life was connecting to TV more than I ever did to the real world. And this is quite funny, because I am not an adult. I am still what most would consider a child. This can still be my life, but in a way it just isn't. I have so much things to deal with and I honestly don't want to. I hate growing up because life goes on after we have more to do besides playing in the sand and watching cartoons, and I just don't wanna let go from this. If I got to choose my life would be watching Batman: The Animated Series while laughing at the silly parts and crying at the heartbreaking ones. I wish I could live like this.
I still don’t understand why people think Joker and Harley are a cute couple. If you ship them, you missed the entire point of the relationship.
You know most people can separate the fiction they enjoy from reality, right?
@@1SpicyMeataball What does that have to do with anything?
I liked your ending "joke." Works for me.
I love your work here.
My favourite comic book character.