I love how the Lego movie did this trope. The movie is literally based around emmet being the boring person he is. Emmet has no hobbies, nothing he likes to do in his free time, except for what the government tells him. And in the end, he became someone, which I really appreciate. The Lego movie is my favorite movie for this reason.
Imagine if Johnny was written as a huge horror nerd who initially was only interested in Mavis because she was a real vampire and likewise, Mavis only liked him because he's the first real human she's met. But they grow to appreciate each other as their own people and not just objects of interest from an unknown culture the more they get to know each other. It would even make Dracula's initial dislike of Johnny a bit more understandable because he doesn't want his daughter to be gawked at like she's some kind of rare zoo animal.
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Holy shit right??? They have zero chemistry! He and Dracula learning to like each other was ten times more interesting than any scene with him and mavis together.
What bothers me about their relationship is that Mavis lost her mom before she can even remember her. And then she has a kid with Johnny... and her kid will probably lose his dad very young because he stayed HUMAN. Mavis and their kid are immortal, Johnny is not. So instead of dealing with this and making their relationship interesting they ignore it.
I think they should have finished off the franchise with Dracula officially retiring and mavis and Johnny taking over the hotel by Mavis making Johnny vampire, officially making him part of the family. I know it goes against all four movies about how he’s a human, but the audience is smarter than that. Even children who are old enough to have that realization will realize how unaddressed it is.
@@geomania8533Movie series is over. It literally ended with Johnny having a tantrum and Drac giving in to his every demand, instead of stating how f%cking ridiculous it is to just give over his hotel to his human son in law when his blood daughter was looking to take over.
I hate Jonny in the sequels. He is a father for several years, but still acts like a surfer/stoner teen. Wouldn't the time as a father mature him a bit. It would been a good way to show character growth, progession
@@discolullaby5777 Yes. But the stereotype of the stupid father must die. It’s really annoying see as while the mother is the responsable one the father is the irresponsable one. The worst part is that stereotype is not funny. Johnny is not funny.. and only is frustrating see how Mavis have to justify his stupid actions.
While some parents still act immature, for a narrative prospective it would make sense for the characters to mature. For example: Mavis: "You are sounding just like my dad !" Johnny: "That because I am a dad"
@@monicaaboites5053 She doesn't even justify it. She knows his actions are stupid and supports him anyway. That's just being loyal wife and unfortunately an enabler.
I only remember one scene with Mavis and Johnny that actually got to me. They’re standing on the roof about to watch the sunrise for her first time, and she’s so freaking mesmerized that she forgets the sun will hurt her. Johnny notices and very gently pulls her back into the shade so she can stay out and enjoy the view without getting hurt. Yeah, their relationship was clunky and awkward and not well written, but it did have its moments.
You heard right folks, an endearing moment is not letting your wife die while you're both taking part in an activity which you know could very well kill her but has no chance of hurting you.
Omg , yes totally I understand that Mavis and Johnny are not the best couple but this happens in reality too that a 10 women likes a less average man . Cough cough “ She’s way out of my league” movie But it’s not like Johnny doesn’t care about her like this scene you are talking about These guys genuinely fell in love and I love it for that and it’s not Mavis fault that the first human man to appear in her life is someone she fell fall and marry off. The only thing I didn’t like was the part 4 of this series It doesn’t make sense to me how papa Dracula went from not liking Johnny to forgetting about Johnny (2nd movie)to liking another woman (3rd movie) and to again in the end not liking Johnny
Yeah it always bummed me out that Mavis went from wanting to see the world then immediately to stay at home mom. Her character had so much potential but they never let her be the star of the story. The 4th movie wasn't very good but it at least gave Mavis and Ericka some agency having to be the ones to save their dumb husbands from the trouble they caused.
In the totally necessary 4th movie everyone was apparently rioting to get, it was honestly kinda interesting to see Johnny demonstrate a proficiency over Dracula, backpack traveling. He actually shown and given wisdom to Dracula, an immortal being who lived many lifetimes, but it still falls short to the fact that Johnny is still the man-child he was since the first film.
It's one of the things I hate about the sequels, is the resetting of characters. in the first movie, Dracula learns and grows so much, but in the second film, he's right back to being a selfish jerk, continuously stepping on Mavis and Johnny toes as the parents of Denis. Can't comment too much on the last two films and the shorts, because I haven'tseen them. But from what I've heard Dracula, is still a selfish jerk.
@@smartass0124 in this case the Everyman is a character with only just enough relatability to be the audiences self insert, they’re not actually a fleshed out character with a complex/individual personality or identity. There’s absolutely stories out there that do this with the genders in reverse, from the normal very average, often unpopular girl getting the most 10/10 attractive, wealthy male love interest, or dating the most popular guy in school for being “different” when there’s no substance to them at all, or poor average girl becoming a princess, etc, when they’re just the audience self insert. In these kinds of stories it’s intentionally written this way for Audiences wish fulfilment and not for making a better character or story. It’s unfortunate but it sells, especially with the young teen audience.
I feel Mavis and Johnny would’ve been better of as friends. Each helping each other navigate a new world and helping them come to the grips with their shortcomings.
I agree, there just wasn’t enough development in order to justify marrying the two off and then having a kid. In the sequels they both could’ve went on adventures and then as they mature their relationship could’ve become more romantic and serious. Or not, not every series needs a romance.
Oh no, the horrors, a male, and a female, being *friends*?!?!?! And just *friends*?! And they *weren't* childhood friends They met each other, and *instead* of falling in love immediately, they become *friends*?!?! Nah bro Zero realism Absolutely nothing good would come from it Absolutely not Never ever would happen ever Let's never let that be common ever Sorry kiddos, friends are for weirdos, especially if it's of the opposite gender!! Never will ever happen ever in real life ever
Oh! Here's an idea! Make Johnny's character a girl (just not an annoying one like irl Johnny)! Have Mavis get her first human friend and learn about the real world through girl bonding, then it would be empowering to have a confident girl break Mavis out of her shell and out from under her dad's thumb.
@@MidnightDarkness666 That's literally the best idea ever! It'd be even cooler if female Johnny (whom I'll refer as Josie) had parents who hated monsters. Both Mavis and Josie would bond over their overbearing parents. It would give Josie the mindset that vampires are bad, so they'd have a cool enemies to best friends arc.
@@letsalllovelean478 that would be interesting and then through their whole friendship and start dating boys Mavis finally gets dating experience instead of marrying the first human guy she meets just because of The zing which is the monster excuse for love at first sight
She wasn’t the main character of the series. It was Dracula. She was always more related to the plot like her having a kid so Dracula could be a grandfather and have a plot for him.
@UltimateCheetah3000 teen parents aren't something uncommon these days. Plus, this pregnancy was planned and Mavis is happy. She will never age and has plenty of time to live her infinite life after her child grows up. It's not like she is left in poverty with no financial stability and help.
The girl that wants to be free and explore the world, that inmediatly after her first romance gets married and has a child has to be one of the worst tropes, it's like you definetly took away what she desired on the first place
@@rae-rae8005 It's mostly because Mavis and Johnny aren't the main character of the movie, Dracula is, the other two are just a subplot to what basically is Dracula learning he needs to let go of his insecurities and fears to move onto a better world. Then it comes to his shenanigans as a grandfather trying to overcome his bias and pressuring.
It was bugged me that Johnny starts off the first movie as 21 and him being the everyman-slacker with no real direction is fine but he spends years of his life between the movies and nothing about him changes. If I remember right he's like 29 by the 4th movie, so he's been with Mavis for like 8 years. For a human that is a decent chunk of time, they could have made some really nice plot lines involving the fact that Johnny is growing older faster than the monsters, he matures and changes very fast for their perspective. Its pretty normal for someone to experience a lot of personal growth in their 20s too, I think it would have been fine if he did remain a goofy guy but as he got older he gained a more complex personality.
I love how everyone casually forgets he will die before his child is mature enough to watch R rated movies. If 118 equals 18, then when he's on his death bed in 60 years his kid will be somewhere around a human 8 or 9.
They shouldve explored that and how it affects the relationship. At the beginning its weird Mav is sheltered and she would normally be 18 by human standards but she couldnt really mature by experiencing hardship or interacting with similarly aged people. So she may only be about 14 mentally. Now the other dude is 21 or 28, dunno, and there is a gap between them from the start. He just has more life-experience, even if its not that much. If it continues he will mature and by 60 he'll maybe act and think like a 60 year old while she thinks like a 20 year old. Would that repulse him? Or how would he deal with dating someone that is like a child to him (mentally).
It has the same vibe as regular bland anime protagonists getting a handout of the powers of a god and having EVERY side character OBSESSED with their "charm". *"I'm just your average high schooler"*
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Also, I love how in anime it's often like this - the protagonist (could be male or female) was the typical, average person for their entire life, no one ever found them very attractive or interesting, nothing special about their personality or hobbies or talents etc. Kinda like a background character, you know like a "Girl E" or "Boy F" in the roll credits But then when the action of the anime starts (with the first episode) suddenly for some reason everyone is interested in them, everyone wants to date them, or be friends with them or be enemies with them... The ENTIRE WORLD starts to focus on that one person for no reason. And we as the viewers are suppose to believe that and accept it
@@Nuti196 That's kinda fallen out of style in anime now though. The bland anime protag was always an openly obvious way people could self insert into. Nowadays though, you usually get over the top, godlike powers relatively quickly, and that's usually the basis for why everyone falls head over heels for them. If you want you cake and eat it, have them be normal, bland MC in the real world, but make them into blatant power fantasy once they get reincarnated or transported into another world or start playing this VR videogame.
Spoilers for Danganronpa 2 and up>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Like for Hajime from Danganronpa 2, they used this "average-ess" trope as a plot point for the series universe. It has importance, and goes in depth with the character's struggle with acknowledging his less skills/abilties/interesting behavior from the rest of the cast. Hajime actually has a personality. And is considered "boring, talentless, normal" person as types of insults.
I think this pairing is fine but the second movie should have been devoted to developing Mavis’s and Johnny’s character, not how Dracula’s crippling abandonment issues.
These movies, at least the major story beats, happen in the wrong order. Feel like it shoulda been 1, 4, 3, 2. Girl meets Human Human actually succeeds in getting dad to like him (That's all he did in 4 really) Dad gets a chance to let go and move on with his life Girl becomes Mom and risks making a buncha the same mistakes. That said, I do understand some of the other story beats can only happen when they do honestly. Mavis meeting Johnnys family and the human world would be a fine excuse to basically write her out of the new two. And Drac can in theory only really give the hotel away in the "Final" movie. But you still coulda introduces Van Helsing in 2, prove Drac right a little then let his grand whatever prove him wrong in the next one.
ralph breaks the internet did the exact same thing. they could've expanded on individual characters but instead they made Ralph a big man baby with abandonment issues.
Johnny was so much more well written in the first movie. He was an adventurous outgoing guy who had travelled the world. Its easy to see how mavis would be attracted towards him after being sheltered and stuck in one place her entire life. He was doing what she so desperately wanted to do. We could actually see Johnny being a smart individual, seeing through what dracula was trying to do, being creative and outgoing enough to gravitate everyone towards him. The sequels just washed all that away and left us with a husk of a character, the clumsy, naive, annoying yes man. The 4th movie really ruined him.
YES. This is exactly how I feel. He actually had layers to him in the first movie. You could see he was an outgoing guy, but he had feelings and, instead of trying to laugh everything off, he acted . . . maturely. Now that's all gone.
YES!! i just watched the fourth movie and i honestly cried over how messed up johnny was. he acted like my four years old cousin with ADHD super irresponsible and childish in an annoying way. in the first movie he was amazing, i enjoyed his realitionship with dracula which continued into movie two and three, i think the chemistry between him and mavis was actually there esp. in the third movie but the fourth one..was just...disaster
Mavis getting married and having a baby straight away always felt off, I think showing her and Johnny exploring and growing up together for a bit would have been a million times better. The wedding and the dead weight baby should have been part of the last movie. Johnny is an explorer by nature and Mavis craves adventure, by the end of the first movie there looks like a story building there but instead they have her get pregnant when she still looks barely 20 and hasn't gone on the adventure she deserves. And her and Johnny still need to grow up a bit, that should have been a plot point. It felt lazy!
While I do think Dennis was a cute addition, it was way too soon for him to come into the franchise and other than the second movie, didn't really affect the plots.
@@AgentMulder120 18 and 21 is only like four years. That's a freshman dating a senior. Weird but not like, sus. And Mavis is like literally several centuries older than 18 also, if we're talking sus lmAo
@@AgentMulder120 Technically Mavis is way older than the guy. If we are talking about years. The guy is like a baby compared to her & even if she was 18 years old, they would be a few years apart. A freshman & a Senior. I don’t know the obsession with age difference. I only care when is a young kid & an full grown adult. If both adults consent, I don’t care. At 18 you can legally marry. The brain doesn’t fully develop until 25, so Jonny is young.
Maybe because subtletly the writers are portraying a sexist and chauvinistic relationship in which the father allows the man to be with his daughter because she is his father's property? Idk, just a thought.
Honestly, he's kinda boring if he's just grouped with Mavis but I think his strongest is when he and Dracula play off each other. Dracula is basically the main character with Jonny being his foil while Mavis is more secondary to the duo.
i think thats why people ship Drac and Johnny together bc they have more "chemistry" than the actual love interest when that happens you know this movie fucked up. wth?!?
I dont even think of him as an everyman. He is just straight moronic to the point of being annoying. Its kind of like how the original simpsons had homer as being dim witted but good hearted and family loving. Meanwhile later simpsons have homer as a pathological liar who is a danger tohimself , his family, and the town at all times. Willing to put his family in danger for a donut. Characters all need SOMETHING to pull you in, and johnny just has nothing
"To willing to lie to his wife so his father in law can abuse abuse his grandson into having vampire puberty" I just realized how f up this series is 💀
@@mcrain1283Is just a purposely dark way to say "Funny dad, lies to helicopter mom so the grandad and grandson can spent time together" Except that the grandad is actually grooming the child into becoming a old fashioned vampire at the age of 5 when Mavis was like 44 years old when she first learned to turn into a bat.
The sunrise scene would have worked so much better if Johnny had used his phone to take a video of it to show Mavis. It makes more sense because it’s impossible to see a sunrise without being hit by its light rays, and it doesn’t make Mavis seem like an idiot who was either too scared to look until Johnny came around, or just never thought of looking past a corner (which, again, doesn’t make any sense considering you can see the sunrise reflect in her eyes without any sunlight on her at all)
I keep thinking about this each time the scene comes to mind, that it's not possible, and I'm always trying to think "okay but if it's from an angle?" and I like try to imitate it with objects, and I always think I'm just dumb, but each time I just conclude whatever I did first, that "it's not physically possible."- and I just wonder how I never heard anyone point that out???.... so idk what the point of my comment was other than: thank you, I now no longer think I'm crazy.
Yes, this makes so much sense! Is like in Interview with the vampire, when Louis can see the sun again when he watch a movie for the first time, is a perfect example and that scene works as a very emotional moment for him
I honestly never liked Johnny, didn't hate him but i found him too annoying. And tbh he doesn't strikes me as a person who is mature enought to have a child (compare him to Mavis who does seem young but does act like a new mom) the bad thing is that i love Andy Samberg,i think he is a very funny a charming guy,deserved a better character
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I often feel like Johnny was a form a self insert for the writers or crew (it obviously couldn't be genndy tartakovsky because he actually has a wife and a child.) I've that is super common for male writers to self insert themselves into a story, and have that character in up with their ideal dream girl. Which is why tropes like the magical girlfriend, boy meets ghoul, and manic pixie dream girl are super common; and why you hardly ever see genderbend version of those tropes. Also I've heard that Mavis was originally for a different movie. And I think in that movie Mavis would have fall in love with the descendant of Van Helsing.
@@kittykittybangbang9367 Yeah man how dare these writers use their own personal imagination to create a FANTASY WORLD that they made themselves. Thats how all writing works not just "MALE WRITERS GRR" lol. Granted they should've made his character better but you know why they didnt?.....idiots are objectively funny for kids. Mavis loving an idiot is literally the joke and plot of the first movie. Not to even mention shes not the main reason people watched the movie. They watched it for MONSTERS haha.
i had a dream about hotel transylvania where mavis and johnny actually get divorced/were on the verge of a divorce and he goes thru a whole character arch about growing up and becoming a more mature person while maintaining his old interests and essentially finding a way to have a balance in his life between being an absolute needy nerd/manchild and a mature adult like Mavis. basically, he had to prove he could be More than just the everyman trope. i hated the dream because throughout the whole thing CAKE BY THE OCEAN PLAYED. CONSTANTLY. made it into a really shitty dream movie.
Mylo in Atlantis is not everyman. He is very intelligent and clever. Not everyone can study ancient languages and solve riddles. He lacks confidence and is awkward but has a good heart and is brave. He is an example of first impression does not say everything
It's also not a white savior plot. Milo doesn't save Atlantis alone; the native population is the muscle that makes victory possible. Milo just happened to be able to read their hover car manuals while they lost their written language in the cataclysm that sunk Atlantis... probably via a curse or something because, I mean, it's clearly amnesia as no adult can read. They were obviously alive before the sinking. Its also not like they were helpless. They TRIED to restart their tech but failed due to missing a tiny detail which wouldn't be obvious. Also the real day saver is Princess what's her tits merging with their god-crystal to do a magic in an act symbolic of apologizing for their hubris in the past. While I'm on the subject, can we all agree that "Mankind reached too high and so the gods smacked him down!" is a toxic fucking trope?
@@MeepChangeling lol i was so seriously invested in your explanation until "princess what's her tits" 😂 still a good explanation but even better with that
It's because he's not the audience, he's his own person, he has a defined personality and abilities. And the fact that Kida got with him (they're so cute I'll defend them to the end of times), the blond villain says at the beginning of the movie that he's single just because he wants after listening to his explanation, impressed by his intelligence
@@MeepChangeling "Mankind reached too high and so the gods smacked him down!" is less a toxic trope and more of a cautionary tale to listen to and not let our hubris kill us. Nuclear weapons being a good example and any other tech we could create that could wipe us out if we are not carful.
@@MeepChangeling No, because its something that serves a purpose. Because its not always Allah that does the smacking, case in point, the Atomic bomb. Just a few those in a few key places and we're all fucked and it will be by our own hand. Not Allah's.
Thanks for bringing up that "problem meets solution" type pairing. It's contrived, more often that not. I can understand falling for one's opposite or looking for someone with something you lack, but there's surely a way to make it more organic than the filters on a dating app. As for audience surrogates, whether it's a schlubby manchild or mousy schoolgirl, a flat (well, flatter) half of a pairing never makes for a compelling love story.
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The opposite attract trope (as well as the belligerent sexual tension trope) are so problematic, and I feel like the it even influences people's perception of the real world as well. There was this one kid in my culinary class who I hated, and could not stand. I told one of my classes my frustrations with him, and one kid legitimately thought that I had a crush on him when I obviously didn't. Luckily that kid moved and that class was only one semester, so I don't have to deal with either of them now.
My least favorite troupe is the pretty, energetic, ambitious woman dating the quirky, hot in an unattractive way, lazy guy she happened to fall for out of nowhere. Drac probably wouldn't have had a problem with Mavis dating a human if the human was someone who didn't do the bare minimum and get praised for it.
Yeah and I feel like this trope is so commonly accepted in pop culture but when its the other way around everyone suddenly hates it. Like in twilight its basically the opposite of hotel transylvania where Bella has no personality and is pretty dumb and Edward is this super chad guy who has his life together. Everyone's always super quick to point that out and hate on it but don't realize its a super common trope with the guy being the "loser", somehow its only a problem when the roles are reversed, but either way I agree this trope sucks
Just watch every Adam Sandler movie ever. He is just not a great guy and sometimes even manipulating and she is interesting, beautiful, successful and deserves better than that loser. I hate those movies because of that (and I don't like the humor, but that is a personal thing)
"Bang the first guy she falls for" definitely resonates with me. I hate how in most films (not just family films, but they really lay into it) want to sell the idea of first love = marriage material.
Totally agree. When you’re too young you don’t always make the best choices. Doesn’t mean you can’t find someone who is good marriage material in your first love, but yeah I’m pretty sure it’s rare.
100% it creates toxic expectations that your first relationship is THE one when in reality the majority of people need to stumble through relationships in order to learn about what they need fro themselves and their partners
Exactly! Your first relationship is almost never your best, especially if you start dating young. You have no experience with relationships, and if you're young you're more naïve and more likely to drastically change. The first one being The One is a cute concept, but it's so common that it's become the expectation, and it's not really a good thing
@@I-Not-Gonna-Take-It it's stupidly unrealistic, most people don't even do that, while in almost every movie, that's what's being shown, giving children and even teenagers/adults, the weird idea that their first relationship ever WILL and SHOULD work, and if it doesn't, then they already failed at their love life
Notice how the girl is always the one who's put together and not troublesome? Like, you've NEVER seenamovie or cartoon about a bad girl with issues being saved by a focused Chad. Or a slacker girl who gets a guy who has his life put together. No instead,you find it's always the guy with issues that needs to be redeemed by a decent girl. Well,for once I'd like a decent girl to end up with a decent guy. Let the bad boys end up with a bad girl or the slacker guy end up with the slacker girl. They CHOSE that for themselves
Yes! I also don't really remember seeing movies where the mom is goofy, relaxed and playful while the dad is constantly worried about the kid. The only type of non-serious mom that I can quickly recall is the divorcee that travels a lot or brings a lot of men home. I want to see moms genuinely play with their kids more, not just always clean and cook while the dad gets to have fun or sit around.
I also found that a bit annoying xd Nowadays, we're getting more hyperactive, not so prudent female protagonists in cartoons. I know a few examples of movies/cartoons where girls aren't this perfect: Gravity Falls Miraculous Ladybug Metal Family Problem child
I think it would be a lot better if the characters bring out better traits in one another. Like Busy Body boy and the slacker girl have a shared interest. They get together Slacker girl doesn't slack off as often, and Busy Body boy learns to relax. I just want to see two characters that make one another better cause thats what the ideal relationship is.
I’ve seen that trope, but in books (and some terrible Disney channel movies) and it’s equally as bad as this one. I prefer the trope where both of them have flaws instead of one being better than the other.
From what Iv'e heard, apparently Mavis was going to originally be used in a romantic drama, but that ended up getting scrapped, and so her character(which had already been designed)was used for hotel Transylvania. If you think about it that way, it actually make sense why her character seems to stand out so much in the first movie, besides her just being, "the pretty one", especially in comparison to the goofy designs of every other character in the series.
I remember hearing that Mavis is from a cancelled movie but you wouldn't happen to have a source, would you? The HT and Sony Animation wikis are of little help and aren't exactly organized/reliable
maybe it does, I don't actually like the design of most of the characters, you can't take them seriously, none of them are of any consequence in anything really, they are background goofyness
I'm guessing she was supposed to be a Teenager too which explains why she literally looks only about 14 or 15 (ignoring her immortality thing). It's really weird to see the two with a kid because I can't get over how young the parents look.
@@southparkfirefly yeah I agree. Also I've read a comment here that said Mavis was originally going to be in a movie where she fell in love with a descendant of Van Helsing. I don't know if it's true tho
Except in almost every sort of romantic comedy where the woman is a mess of a human being and gets to decide between her choices of well put together men (and the occasional bad boy).
Have you never read a YA novel written by a women? Or watched a lifetime/Hallmark movie? There are PLENTY of stories featuring a slobbish woman hooking up with a handsome men. I get that you're trying to make a point, but COME ON...
@@pppf_S Then why do people watch/read so much of it? It's not because they produce too much of it. People love these types of stories because, believe it or not, most of them (men and women) can relate to the "slob" protagonist, and most people like to fantasize about dating someone they know is out of their league. It's a common fantasy. Everyone has their mold. For men, it's the slobbish, man-child who somehow manages to charm a beautiful woman into liking him. For women, its the shy, awkward, not annoying-at-all, adorkable outcast girl who gets the bad boy/hot guy and changes him into the guy of her 'dreams'. Pick your poison, lady. Both are played out and paint harsh stereotypes of every gender, but people eat that shit up.
I've noticed that a lot of people seem to gloss over this one fact. Mavis and Dennis are functionally immortal, however Johnny is very much human (stated repeatedly throughout the film). Johnny is going to age while his wife and child stay the same, Mavis is going to have to one day watch her husband slowly die. Unless she turns him into a vampire, time is going to slowly take away their life together.
I think the main issue with Johnny is that he’s never given a character arc. Like, okay, everybody likes him, maybe he’s just charismatic, some people are just naturally good with people like that, but maybe show him being cocky and overconfident about it, perhaps Mavis doesn’t like that and finds him arrogant; now there is a conflict. The movie could have used that character trait to reveal some hidden insecurities for Johnny to have to face, humbling him, allowing him to gradually open up some vulnerabilities and self-reflection, learning to not coast through life and rely on a facade to gain the approval of others and put forth genuine effort to get to know Mavis and develop a deeper connection as he continues to grow as a person. If Johnny had this kind of character development, he could still be the relatable “Everyman” that the filmmakers want him to be, while also having a more fleshed out personality. It wouldn’t be the biggest change, but it would make him even more relatable, while also giving some added weight to the relationship dynamic between him and Mavis. I do love this movie, but Johnny, as he is written, is a pretty one-dimensional character.
Maybe play into this humbling act: Maybe his overconfidence would itself be the act? He would try to "fake it till you make it". When Mavis would confront him about his arrogance, Johnny would confront her about pretending she's normal, and him finding it condescending. He would be a bit of a socially awkward goof who tries to be accepted, but without this insane overconfident act he'd just be another face in the crowd
I think its having a flaw of the human condition that is common is what makes a character actually relatable. You dont actually have to have the everyman trope for them to be liked. You just need to play on a flaw most people have. Again spot on with being maybe too confident and getting cocky or being a little too anxious. Like someone who acts with best intentions but cant control how everyone responds to their actions but wants to earn everyone's approval enough to fit in. But then learns you dont need to do that in order for people to respect you. Thats a good everyman setup. It plays on our collectivism mindset and our internal fear/need of wanting to find where we fit amongst our other peers. And maybe learning we dont need to fit it in there at all, just need to be a better person from learning with humility.
I'm not gonna lie I started reading this and immediately just found myself thinking about Guy from The Croods - a movie I honestly absolutely despise with every fiber of my being. I would probably rewatch the Hotel Transylvania sequels over it again and I didn't care for those either 😂 I'm just so sick of those types of characters who are basically allowed to walk on sunshine and rainbows for absolutely *no reason whatsofreakingever*. They didn't earn it, didn't do nothing for it, they're just given everything because the rules of the universe just bend to allow them their way. Johnny wasn't even that bad, he was just friggin' bland, but at least he got an eyeroll sometimes. Guy couldn't even get that from me.
10:20 I'm going to disagree that Milo Thatch is an "Everyman". Being the Cartographer and Linguist with a passion for researching dead Languages, Ancient Civilizations, and Classical History, it gives him his own unique character. He's less of an "Audience Insert" and more of an "Idealized Hero"; he's smart, and despite how Physically Weak he is, he still actively involves himself in the Action (and manages to best people physically stronger than him with quick thinking). I don't think we were ever supposed to think we were Milo Thatch, but we were most certainly supposed to empathize with him and admire him. (Also, can we acknowledge that Milo Thatch is just Daniel Jackson from Stargate SG-1 ripped Wholesale).
Yeah Milo is way too smart and nerdy to be an everyman, he deciphers and learns to speak a "dead language," which is one of the biggest reasons that he gets the girl. More like a super scholar than an everyman
So much agree. I was going to say that I wish I had the same skills as Milo. He has that more goofy behavior, but it hits so, so different. It isn't goofy to make him funny, he's like that to stand out from all these serious adventurers with an agenda so unlike his own. He's there to exist in the beauty of this hidden history that he's been dreaming of since he was a kid. Everyone else arrived for money... Sure, he's the key to a lot of issues occurring within Atlantis, but not just for her, but for an entire people. If it wasn't for his admiration and love for knowledge, the people would have continued to be stuck in their past. Kita's interest for him is similar to Astrid's in How To Train Your Dragon. At first it seems shallow, but then you remember a quote she once said, "Is this some kind of a joke to you? Our parents war is about to become ours. Figure out what side you're on." Her everything is protecting her people, so when she rode on the back of a dragon, it was basically of, 'this is it. Who else could I respect more than a person who has befriended the very beast we fear?' And, with watching the series, that becomes even more clear when her parents were nearly brought down. She seeks comfort and protection.
@@SavySniff weird romance in kids animation happens a lot. In shrek donkey and dragon are in a relationship. And in over the hedge stella the skunk and tiger the cat became a item..... Looking back many relationships in cartoon and animation shows and movies were very weird.
Now a days it feels a little more rare for a male and a female to be in a romantic relationship I feel people should just write what's best for the story
Yknow honestly, I like the relationship with Drac and Johnny more. They bring out better parts of each other by the end of the first movie with Drac grounding Johnny a bit by telling him about himself and making Johnny actually be a bit responsible by leaving while Johnny gets Drac to have fun and helps Drac with his misanthropy. So I'd have enjoyed it even more if it was like a bromance movie instead.
I've found that you need two things to make a complex character: 1. Who they are 2. Why they are who they are Example: Dracula is an overprotective father BECAUSE monsters and he himself have been ostracized and demonized by humans for centuries. Johnny is a goofball BECAUSE the plot needs him to be a goofball
You can be the every man but you need some qualities that make you stand out or you need to do things that make you a great choice in fans eyes for a good girl...if you save people cool..if you help people cool...don't be the bland useless everyman that has no traits worth marrying...
But are there any reasons for a person to be a goofball really? It's like a personality trait, something you are born with. Dracula's overprotectiveness is a behaviour trait.
Jonny was the best in the first Hotel. They really olaf'd him in the sequels by overcharacterizing his troupe. The scene with him in the closet explaining his past roommate will never fail to get a good laugh out of me.
I agree. In the first one, his naivety is genuinely funny and somewhat endearing. And at the end when Drac forced Johnny to leave, we as the audience WANT him to be allowed back in the hotel. Then in the sequels he turns into the most generic, "stupid dad" type character ever written.
The trope I hate is "dance sequences because kids think dancing is funny" These movies are huge offenders, like "Oh watch the old people dance to hip musics" like please stop.
anyone else felt super let down when in the second movie , the baby turned out to be a vampire after all? they got so close to the whole idea of just accepting their grandchild the way he is and then threw the idea away
In my opinion, Johnny was tolerable in the first film. AND ONLY THE FIRST FILM. They were teens. Young love, and Mavis didn’t have any clue about the world outside of the hotel so I can understand the direction the first film was going. After that, when Sony made more movies, I find it baffling that they were still together, and had a kid. Johnny hasn’t changed even the slightest bit. He had no character growth. It pisses me off. I can’t believe Mavis would even consider staying and raising a child with that fool. Divorce him.
I think Jhonny still was a good dad behind the scenes, he just became comic relief for most of the screentime after the first movie, he also wasn't fully aware of how far drac would go to convert his son and still owed him a lot, yeah I don't think his character is the issue, he has potential (good at playing instruments, has a lot of experience from his travels and knows how to drive properly), it's just how he's portrayed.
The worst thing about johnny is that in the first movie, he actually has depth to his character. He's experienced because he's travelled around the world he has many skills and stories that helps him become popular and interesting with the monster. He's understand the reason for dracula's hate of human and doesn't judge dracula for it. He's compasionate because he willingly reject mavis because of drakula's wish. He's kind because he even managed to get dracula to open up to him and finally human. He has so much potential in the first movie and it's a damn shame he didn't get the chance to actually be developed and instead reduce to a bumbling mediocer idiot
This thought might be a little stupid, but please hear me out: Watching this trope continuously in childhood projects unhealthy expectations in adult life that might be harmful. Girls are taught that they have to be successful in life, because the standard female Charakter is beautiful, successful, quricky and often very perfect. They are also taught that the typical partner would be a lazy butt and that they should settle for that. Boys are taught that they get the hot perfect girl by being a lazy butt and wonder later in life why that doesn't happen. They might even project those expectations (see: "I'm a nice guy, why won't she date me?!" ) onto women and create a miserable spiral where expectations are unrealistic.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 - [This got kinda long, as a warning if anyone clicks read more] I mean, given a lot of behavior, coping methods, habits and reference for normality comes from those you grow up around, the media you're exposed to and the environment you're in, I wouldn't call that being gullible more than having a toxic frame of reference that your young worldview is subconsciously influenced by. We're not talking about someone simply deciding this is how the world works because one person said so. Lots of people have negative biases and beliefs well into adulthood, and merely need time, healthy exposure, a competent social network and the desire to unlearn thought harmful patterns and behaviors that are often so ingrained they manifest without the person even noticing. For a lot of people, negative beliefs and behaviors aren't solely for lack of awareness, but because their brain has literally been brought up on experiences that don't always reflect healthy or common life practices. Those sort of things aren't the kind of things you snap out of because you're not gullible, and toxic ideologies pushed to youth on a mass scale shouldn't be handwaved when later resurfacing in the same youth as them having "serious mental problems." That's like snapping branches when you need to cut the tree, and at the same time degrading lots of capable people when the actual fault is more on the generation before them who raise them up on this thinking.
Imagine if Johnny was replaced with a Simon Belmont type dude who came to the hotel to kill Dracula, that would be kinda cool seeing him and Dracula start off trying to kill eachother, then try to tolerate eachother for mavis’ sake
I wish Jhonny had a cooler appearance/personality like Danny Phantom when he wasn't in his phantom form... He would've been so much more of an attractive character and desirable person/connection with Mavis
I have to disagree about having everyman trope un Atlantis. Milo is far from being an everyman. He is super cultured, clever and driven. He has hobbies dreams and a strong personnality. He is not only here to make unconfident straight males feel better about their chances to get a bombshell of a girl. He is here to fulfill his dream. Saving Kida becomes a new goal as he fell in love during the movie.
Exactly. Milo is definitely not an everyman, he’s an accomplished linguist who struggles with social interaction but comes into his own as he explores an entirely different culture from his own in the movie. The best part is that at the end of Atlantis, him and Kida don’t kiss, but they instead hug. Their relationship is still obviously hinted at being romantic, but Milo is an excellent diversion from what could’ve been an everyman.
Agreed. The biggest difference for me being that Johnny accidentally ended up at the Hotel. Milo was furiously searching for Atlantis after constant set backs and being told he was a fool, wanting to fufil his life long dream. What sets them apart is having a personality and then seeing that personality further develop through a romantic relationship (not having no personality and the relationship being the entire plot). Also, not sure what average viewer was projecting onto Milo. He literally kickstared an expedition for a new discovery and was a super genius and later tactician.
agree with everything but the comparison with the disney Atlantis movie, cuz that guy wasn't an "everyman", not only he was actually hot, wasn't he brought along cuz he knew stuff and he was like super smart or something, I may be wrong here but I remember something along those lines, like, he had a purpose and a talent
Milo was a linguistic genius, his entire thing was that he can actually read the language that noone else could, and he was a nerd with a wide arrange of knowledge and topics. He's not the everyday man.
@@Nick-nb2oz That being said, neither is Johnny in this case, especially when the "everyman" trope is suppose to be characters like Homer Simpson or the Hobbits from LOTR. The everyman is suppose to be a person who doesn't want to do anything outside of their safe bubbles even if the plot usually requires them to do so, and aren't considered special in any meaningful way (the Hobbits were only considered as special as they were because of how "normal" they are). Nor do they have any special skill or drive to do things that normal people wouldn't unless pushed into such a situation. Johnny is shown to be a rather oddball of a person who isn't really like the majority of people from both his universe (remember how his mother was only able to find one other couple between human and monster?) and the selected audience (children, and your typical 9 to 5 working adult). He's more of the "free spirit" archetype of character who are attributed as being laid back, easy going, and typically of a surfer dude/stoner mannerisms.
America has this weird obsession with praising mediocrity and it permeates into every facet of our society. I'm sick of it in movies and I'm sick of the "capable, strong, and nuturing" female lead having to deal with the ridiculous antics of the man-child that she is more like a mother to than a wife. The trope is gross and especially has no business in media aimed at children or teens.
@Prey R when you look at denmark there isnt a big difference between single parent child and two parent child. Meaning Its america that fucked somwthing up.
I think Johnny is the poster boy for why having “relatable” be the start and end of their personality is a bad thing. because if you can’t relate to them (which I don’t) then there’s literally nothing to like about them. you can have a character be relatable, but you have to give them a personality or a hobby or something to grab onto. and this is a love story, so having a likable lead is kind of important in this genre lmao
@@derpfluidvariant0916 God I wish they continued with that Johnny. Who knows, maybe they could've shown a scene with him and Van Helsing bonding over mythical creature legends and all that good stuff
@@derpfluidvariant0916 Totally. If you re watch the first movie and compare with the boat cruise one (I don’t even know how many fucking movies there at this point) he is so much knowledgeable in the first. I can actually stand to watch him; he’s just this monster believer dude who likes to adventure. But in the other movies, they like made him denser and it’s so annoying to watch.
I feel like the guy in the video stating he was the “relatable” guy couldn’t find the right term because it’s obvious they were going for this like stoner teen surf / skateboarding type of guy ya know and it’s not really that relatable with the teen to kid audiences nor the adults who probably mostly have a opinion on the film because children really don’t care and teens eh maybe a few of em but yeah
Yyyyyeah, plus where the movie takes place pretty much everyone is dirt poor soooo it is the Everyman and his only talent is singing and finding a magical lamp
@summonersriftgarbage4426 Aladdin has, on multiple occasions, been depicted as cunning and proactive, like how he fooled genie for a free wish, saved jasmine from getting her arm chopped off by pretending she's his crazy relative and fooled Jafar into turning into a genie to exploit the lamp weakness, Aladdin is supposed to be a quick witted underdog.
Facts. Honestly, with Atlantis, Milo is a catch just from his smarts, determination, bravery, love for exploration. He def has it going on for himself.
The everyman trope is like the male equivalent of the Mary Sue, with a difference: The Mary Sue it's mostly written by insecure girls that wants to be good at everthing to be loved and have everyone's attention. The Everyman is written by grown men who wants to be loved and have everyone's attention doing...literaly nothing.
The Everyman trope is represented by Homer Simpson and the Hobbits from LOTR. None of this video was even correct and was just one massive wankfest of an incel shitting on a "free spirit" character who happens to be the romantic interest of said incel's animated waifu.
It's always fucked me up. I remember always told being with my chin high and act mature for foolish bullies. Every single anime is practically an OP everyman or Everyman Harem. Their cast of unique Female cast turned into humble housewives once a choice is made. Boys are allowed to get away with so much and taught its their entitlement. But bring up and it becomes a strawman discourse of EXTREMIST SJW/FEMMIST/LEFTIST and in its like Korean love stories have protagnist treated like actual object/shit towards and ML who are objectively entitled/Stoic/Powerful and its about melting their heart while the female is written to be like a middle schooler's mentality toward love/sex/romance. Girls are told to be everything and when they write their characters as everything they get the criticism society told them specifically to be. Everyman trope is a proganda for males to continue the male narrative that has always existed. The worse part is dynamics. FL in high power? Make her humbled and allowed vulenbarity make her subdued. FL in low power? Put her in an extremely awkward situation which spirals of ultimantions and when she makes a choice her choices are disregarded or made into the villain(or just written as a fucking dumbass)- ML in high power? Object of affection must be won, doesn't matter he's awful, doesn't matter he disregard you, doesn't even matter if all his intentions are awful *wobbfied voice* he changed SLIGHTLY for you! He has heart now. But now can't talk to another man ever and privacy for you isn't an option. Everyman? I don't need personality, just generic stuff and allow you lore dump. I can be a preverted but I'm kind so its okay or its funny, so don't make a big deal about it. I'm probably going to be Overpowered or have an extreme important niche despite being an everyman. ML in underdog situation/poor? Plot armor for practically everything. Any wrongdoing I did was excusable and I can do it but not you. You should be sympathetic towards me because I suffered. Oh you suffered too? Well, we superficially connect on it, I use it against you and its potrayed in a good way, or I never acknowledge it anyway. (I can never get over P5 after saving the OG trio and then telling the blonde she has to get naked or something and the blond friend wants to see it despite that fact Blonde was being stalked/Harrassed the mission prior and there'd been empathises on that, like it fucked up. It's fucking disgusting) Ah Everyman and Mary Sues tropes are just born out of incredible amount of self desire made because we live in this fuck up gendered systematic structure that almost never helped anybody ever.
Because he doesn't act like a husband - he still behaves like an irresponsible teen. How is she supposed to treat him like an adult when (mentally) he isn't one.
I hate johnny with a passion. What drives me even more insane is that they keep pairing these hundreds of year old creatures with dumb human beings. This would have been awesome to explore monsters who didn't live in the hotel. Mavis discovery the world and having an actual relationship with someone other than a man child.
@@EmptyMan000 Have you seen Mavis? Regardless of her being a vampire or single or a mother someone will want her! She's not only attractive design wise but also in regards to personality! She's an all around likeable character. I'm quite sure the chances of her finding someone aren't as low as you'd believe.
Hotel Trannsylvania 2 should’ve been about Mavis and Johnny traveling the world and learning more about each other tbh. Have them struggle because the other doesn’t fit the idealized version that they built up in their head. Could’ve been great tbh.
Wait, how is Atlantis the Lost Empire an everyman story? Milo has a dozen phds, can speak ten different languages, can decipher totally alien languages if he's familiar with its entomology, and can read millennia old maps. He's the awkward super genius trope.
And he’s handsome. He’s just made to showcase a narrow/small framed man, I always thought he reminded me of Jeremy Irons, Sting, Chris Botti, Hugh Grant or Hugh Dancy. He’s pretty and skinny, which makes his expression geeky. He’s not a white savior either. He’s an instrument to Kida, providing light and guidance that she desperately needed. The man literally saves her life, gives her newfound purpose and helps her people. He’s no Everyman the guy’s extraordinary. I love how everyone defends him too.
The only everyman I really like is Emmet from Lego Movie, because they play into the fact he's the everyman. They stick a regular guy next to Master Builders. But the Everyman Trope worked with The Lego Movie because a big theme in Lego Movie was that anyone can be special. You don't have to have special powers or even be part of some prophecy (as we find out Vitruvius made up the prophecy) to do great things and be important. Also, Emmet is fun, even while being an everyman. And the reason he gets with Lucy/Wyldestyle is because they _do_ have chemistry.
I felt like Johnny and Mavis would’ve worked if the 2nd film helped change Johnnys personality. It would’ve been kinda funny to see Johnny turn into a more mature father figure for his son, and actually get mad at Drac for trying to force Dennis to be a vampire. I mean Drac not fully excepting Johnny has been a plot point in all of them major or minor. The Second film could’ve actually had Mavis and Johnny wanting to move away since Drac couldn’t except Johnny’s humanity and the possibility of Dennis being a human too.
Another thing they could have used is the fact that Mavis is a vampire and ages/matures more slowly than humans. It could have been a conflict point where Johnny is more mature than her...sorta a reversal of roles.
@@jc1979af Exactly! Mavis is over a hundred years old and still has a teenage mindset, yet suddenly she matures at a normal rate? Johnny getting more disciplined and responsible while Mavis is still much like when they first met could have been a great conflict for them to overcome, and a great message about long-term love. Also, why couldn't one of the movies have been a midquel about when they were still just dating?
I think the movie would've been better if they didn't include the romantic subplot and Johnny could still exist, but they become friends and Mavis tries to convince her dad to let her travel with him for the movie. Tbh Drac Hardcore believed in the Zing, so it would make more sense to his character to rally that much against it if he wasn't even a zing. Mavis gets to travel in the end and Johnny is just her travel companion. If it develops, it develops, but it would have a better pace for the romantic subplot than the movie. Or a pace at all other than "oop, instant love."
@@hodzal5258 A mature, sympathetic, cute man that is smart and knowledgeable in a lot of fields (including common ones)? Hell yes, that is a 10 points man, even Helga mentions un the movie how surprising is that he is single
Yes, he could have evolved into an entertaining, more mature "Jimmy Stewart" type of Everyman - who finds himself in bizarre situations because of his wife, son and extended family. Any change to his "rinse/repeat" interactions with Dracula would have made for much better sequels.
That's my problem with johnny. I didn't mind the couple but I do understand the dislike when you see that johnny doesn't change or have any type of character development. Even parenthood didn't change him.
True. He didn’t even do anything in the second movie, and his only contribution to the third was DJing. He’s 8 years older, almost 30 and has a kid in Part 2; you’d think he’d be a little more mature, wiser, or just DIFFERENT in some capacity.
Guess the writers didn't even know what to do with Johnny so they just made him a comic relief and whatnot, which sucks since i believe Johnny could've had an arc or so where he would grow and have actual character development if the writers could've tried.
The scream cheese was the most memorable character for me. I forget this entire movie series but the scream cheese has stayed with me for years. Its so cute
what always pissed me off is how both Marvis and Johnny stay the same in sequels. They are married adults for crying out loud. You can make some point for Marvis because she's a vampire but it would be nice if they looked slightly more mature as the story moved on (yes, young married couples don't suddenly change overnight I know but the time still pases)
I firmly believe that media that promotes this kind of trope is a massive part in why incel culture exists. Boys grow up watching average men being fawned over by women and this teaches them to expect women to fall for them and treat them like they're the world. They come to feel that just by existing, they are entitled to this treatment, but once they are faced with real life women and not the characters they grew up watching and their expectations aren't fulfilled, they become bitter and hateful. This cycle is so toxic to everyone involved and it has always weirded me out how shows and movies feed into it
@@Envy_May It happens, lots modern women have ridiculous high standards while they don't offer anything worth mentioning to the relationship besides their looks.
Legit, in every movie about a girl, she has to change her entire appearance and everything about herself to get the guy in the end. Every movie about a guy he doesn't have to change anything, if the girl still rejects him by the end she's painted as "oh she's just shallow, she shouldn't be judging you for your looks"! (Even though he spends the whole movie pining after a girl...because of her looks)
Yeah there has been a huge change in Johnny’s personality since the first film. Unpopular opinion, but I was ok with Johnny’s character in the first film, saw nothing wrong with it. But as soon as hotel Transylvania 2 came out it all started to go down hill. He completely lost his previous personality as the fun free spirited guy, and gained the personality of just… stupid, and even more annoying. At least he could be a LITTLE more serious in the first film, but now whenever he shows negative emotions it’s really hard to buy. He seems less of a person, less human.
I will agree, even in the first film he had some redeemable characteristics and even hinted some critical thinking behind those bland eyes. It was nice to see him in some more serious scenes as well in the first movie without being the comic relief. I really do not understand why they did not keep this side of his character while also making him fun for the viewers in the rest of the movies.
Same, at the first movie I liked him, he was not super cool but I liked his personality and goofy way, but in the sequels he went down hills at a point he agreed to distract and lie to Mavis about what his own son and Dracula doing! He should be the first one to disagree completely with the idea of Dracula and supporting to love his son no matter what he is. Honestly I have certain doubts about if was right they stay in Transilvania, i would like to see how Mavis could adapt and live in John's scenario. Since she likes that much travel I would like to see how would be if she's not only on the hotel.
@@puripurimimi2803 To be fair, the only interesting part of Johnny in HT 2 is how clearly he hated his life at home, that's the reason he was away so often. It's clear he didn't stand his conformist family and he was unhappy living there, and I think he honestly thought Dannis would be unhappy there too. Too bad they didn't explore that side of the story.
You know I can’t remember if this is true or what, but I remember once hearing about how Johnny was originally going to be a vampire Hunter coming to the hotel and then falling in love with Mavis. Is it the most original idea in the world? No, but it’s more interesting as it makes what Drac is so worried about a bit true and does gives that change of world view type of development(which while the third movie was basically just a summer movie done for money, I did like the chemistry between Drac and Ericka which is this idea explored kinda). Either way thank goodness there’s always better couples with better chemistry in other shows/movies.
It's true! Johnny was originally going to be a Van Helsing named Simon. From what I've read, him and Mavis where gonna have a sort of Romeo and Juliet conflict with the two trying to get their families to see eye to eye or something along the lines of trying to make their relationship work
I would have taken that over this Johnny! Hell, why not take it a step further and say his family is from a long line of monster hunters, who believed that monsters no longer existed, while still having the knowledge of monsters.
Hell! I don't care if he was an amateur vampire hunter who was terrible at hunting monsters and just stumbled into success and somehow managed to make it work
@@blackheartthedarklord6428 that whould be so much better than what they did with Johnny characters in the movie they should have had Johnny be a antagonist towards Mavis by trying to hunter her to make his family happy then give him a redemption arc where he falls in love with Mavis that whould make this character more interesting instead of making me a man child who really annyoing and dumb
Literally Stranger Things El and Mike. El falls into the 'born sexy yesterday' trope almost perfectly (with a few variations because she is still a child and so 'sexy' isn't a term I would use to describe her ever.) Mike is the first real person to show her kindness. She basically does everything he tells her to do, except when Max comes in to tell her what to do. Season 4 doesn't fair much better with El basing her entire personality on anything Mike does. Mike isn't in love with her, she'll make him in love with her and run away to become a superhero. It's really kinda dumb. I really don't think the Duffer brothers know how to write female characters very well.
@@yamyam493 oh my god yes, I hated the 4th season so much. I basically skipped through the last few episodes just to see how it ends. It was so fucked how they gaybaited the audience making them think the thing Will drew would be romantic, and it's actually Mike and El's plot device for a romantic subplot development, whereas Will only got a silent cry in anguish. I hated it in the Chucky tv series too, where the love interest had zero personality and was simply the gay poc token who could've been substituted with anyone else of the same description and nothing would've changed. Same "born sexy yesterday" thing where the main character is brave, charming, funny, complicated, passionate about something dear to their heart and their love interest is literally the only random gay person without personality or anything visual that makes them memorable or unique in any way just to be the damsel in distress because HE was obsessed with the main character and wove his way into his life. Same with the Loki series where even though Loki is a staple Tumblr hot guy, he bonded with his female counterpart over being unlucky in love. A guy who has lived for some thousand years falls in love for the first time with the first relatable person in his proximity who shows interest in him. At least Harley and The Joker had some sort of exciting dynamic. What does it say about media if the number 1 shipped movie couple is the most dysfunctional relationship goal you can think of?
I really don't get what Mavis sees in him, he doesn't act his age and is an actual idiot who can't take care of his child. He never evolved as a character, nor did he get any development; he just stayed the dumbass he is throughout the entire franchise, till the VERY END. To be honest, Mavis carries the entire relationship yet gets sidelined as just ''Johnny's wife'' when she's 100 percent more interesting than Johnny could ever be, she pops in when she needs to, then gets written out for the next 30 minutes until she's needed again. His whole arc was just Drac accepting him as human but that happens EVERY MOVIE, Drac accepts him at the end of each movie then in the next movie they just redo that arc over and over again? I guess the writers just forgot... Or worse they are stretching out a dying franchise that dies more with each movie, they should've just ended the franchise at the 2nd movie since everything came to a conclusion at the end of it.
Re: Mavis...gets sidelined as just "Johnny's wife" It's so weird that the first movie followed Drac and Mavis more as the main characters and then it shifted to Mavis and Johnny in the second and then Drac in the third, and I think Drac and Johnny for the fourth. Mavis always felt like the main character to me in the first movie so it was weird they made that shift.
What makes it worse is that the movies act like he's in the right all the time and he doesn't need to learn anything from anything and save all the "what you did is wrong and here's why" for Drac. And don't get me wrong, I don't like Drac in these movies. They treat him like he's just a loving, over protective dad when in reality he's possessive and refuses to treat his child like the grown adult with her own life she is. But Jonny can be just as obnoxious, and I really wish they would call him out for it as much as they do Drac but they just don't.
Pretty sure that the Drac accepting Johnny was only for the first movie. After that Drac just needs to accept that his life is changing....and then the last movie came along and decided to revisit the first for some reason. When you think about it the movies are all about Drac. Movie 1- Drac(main focus), Johnny and Mavis (secondary focus) Movie 2- Drac (main focus), Dennis (secondary focus), Mavis and Johnny (minor focus) Movie 3- Drac (main focus), Mavis, Johnny and Dennis ( minor focus) Movie 4- ya probably get the point Mavis and Johnny are a pretty much a package deal when it comes to these movies, with Mavis mainly being more important and Johnny just being there
To be fair though guys, I don't know why you all are complaining that this is just a rehashed message from the very first film. It's actually not , The first one was about Drac letting his daughter grow up and make her own decisions and Johnny just happened to be one of those decisions. The 4th film was more of Drac accepting that even though Johnny is a human he still is capable of handling big responsibilities. (Aka the hotel.)
I agree with everything except for Milo being an Everyman. Dude is 100% nerd. He has distinct physical properties as well as a distinct personality. White Savior, sure, but Everyman? Nope.
A lot of people are nerds nowadays. And even if they aren't full on nerds, they do at least have one or some nerdy interests which can make them come off as incredibly nerdy.
@@trla6505 he is more of a professional nerd tho, his life and work has been dedicated to his passion, and thats how he managed to form a bond with Kira and her culture
@@zkme2734 he Is a scholar and a nerd, profesionals can have passion and social skills, also anyone who likes to ravel and visits new places could have connected with kiras culture
It's a shame they kept Johnny as an immature man-child who never grew. In the first film, he really served the function of helping others around him grow and change, but the writers withheld that gift from him 😔 Edit: As for the sunrise scene, it could have been Mavis watching the sunrise as per her usual habit and sharing that with Johnny. A sweet moment in which she shares what she loves with him, he falls for the dreamer quality she has, and she feels safe sharing her secrets and desires with him.
Its always been disgusting to me when a story has a female character fall in love with the first guy she meets after being sheltered her entire life. Its essentially giving the message that naivety can and should be taken advantage of. She falls in love with him, simply because she has nothing else to compare him to. Her standards are ridiculously low, so anything will work. The male love interest could be abusive or manipulative, but because he was the "first guy to watch a sunset with her," hes special. And its only becoming more of an issue in modern media, because no one seems to understand how relationships work. In reality, the cute shut-in girl feels aimless and empty inside because she gave herself up to someone who never earned it. Mavis only stays married to Johnny because she never meets anyone else. She could've met a more passionate and sensible man just by walking down the street
Frozen at least did it better, they made Anna finish with the "everyday man" but only because she learned to know him, while she could have finished with the first dude she meet and Disney did a good job for showing "be careful with the first man you meet"
I CAN understand your point but it's dumb to say that you understand relationships when you think ppl choose partners in a comparative way. I'm not the most intelligent, handsome or cute guy in the world but my gf still loves me. Seriously what a bad take
I took bigger issue with the whole "zing" thing. I believe it is the most toxic concept in the modern dating world. We stick in abusive relationships, choose to marry less than ideal partners, and have our hearts absolutely broken because we believe the love at first sight idea. Instead of wisely choosing a partner, we choose based on a feeling. My husband and I have a saying. "Love is a choice you make everyday. You don't fall out of love and you don't choose someone to marry based on being in love with them. It has worked very well for us."
The thing is though, that "zinging" is something supernatural and obviously mutual. In practice, when two "zing," they will treat each other well. (It's true love and they are basically soul mates)I find this concept of true love in this context to be quite nice. If romantic relationships among monsters were to unfold as they do in humans, then Mavis would have had 20 husbands by the end of her life. Apparently, not only monsters "zing," but also humans with monsters. This is important to avoid creating a toxic imbalance. In the end, "zinging" is something different from love at first sight in humans. Like they said in the movies. "It's a monster thing"
@@catscanhavelittleasalami love at first sight is as old a tale as anything. The main thing to take away from the zing concept is that it suggests that somewhere out there is someone perfect for u. U may not believe that but i do and i don’t think thats harmful to children at all. What is harmful is so many young people reporting feeling high levels of persistent loneliness that accompanies the belief they will never find their said zing. I also think that reducing love to mere chemicals in the brain and encouraging people to reject traditional values such as marriage and encourage selling themselves is a messed up lesson for kids but most cartoons nowadays push that notion, but hey that feminism. Ig im old school
The opinion you hold that can inject Milo from Atlantis in as an everyman is your boldest assertation here. The man speaks several languages living and dead fluently, is well educated in history (for his reality), held steady employment, and had serious dreams and ambitions that true fall into a Disney princess category but are still unique enough to capture your attention (this is important to mention as all fantasy movies fall victim to this at some point). He holds several helpful life skills that help guide and aid the expedition he goes on. While it's true the cast look down on him for being a book worm this in itself is probably the most manufactured part of the movie. As even the expedition leader Rourke knew when to stop giving Milo a hard time and get the kid to use his skills as they were needed. The implication you could replace Milo with Johnny from this series is laughable at best. This is my only real critic. Sure, you could attempt to say Milo and johnny have the same type of ability to serve the plot as needed but it's so much weaker with Milo as he actually served the story with previously mentioned abilities giving his character a unique and singular point of potential as he was part of a larger team. Everything after they reach Atlantis is no longer about Milo proving he was right but how right he was to discern the technology he read about which he mentions in his practice speech in the first 5 minutes of the movie. Your main complaint with Johnny is he serves every point despite his previously mentioned lack of abilities. Making him into a pseudo-Gary sue, however Milo doesn't even come close to the level of Gary sue as this Johnny does. Other than this good video. Edit: Dang so this is internet Karma.
He thinks every average male is an "everyman" trope. Johnny in this movie was electric, and he gets along with everyone. His energy alone changed the whole mood of Hotel Transylvania with fun stuffs. And that's how Mavis fell in love with him not because of some every man trope. Also the fact that he showed her the sunrise for the first time in her life
Agree, Milo was an exceptional guy, an expert in his own fields, not an everyman. If they inverted the genders making Kida a guy and Milo a girl fem Milo would have been considered one of Disney's best female characters.
That was also my only issue, I love Atlantis and Milo’s character and while he is a bit of a Gary Stu he at least stands out from the “everyman”. I’m a girl but I’m also a nerd so seeing someone else who was picked on for being a nerd find the love interest is great.
Yeah i think that one is the opposite, Milo is the intresting character (though he's a total Daniel Jacksson rippoff) and the princess who's name I can't even remember is essentially the price. That said hardly suprising since the entire movie is a ripoff of Laputa.
You're fucking spot on man. I'll be honest, I've started seeing this everywhere. Cool, quirky, fleshed out good character female lead falls for that random guy who, and I can't stress this enough, has 11/10 qualities of a reddit mod.
This is what bugs me about the premise of the fourth movie. Dracula had every reason to be hesitant about giving the hotel to Johnny because he’s a screw up, but they decided to treat it like he still had human issues, which he’s overcome repeatedly throughout the franchise. Then instead of having Johnny go through some actual development, they just put it all on Dracula.
Yeah . . . they did Drac dirty ngl. If I were him, I wouldn't want to give Johnny the hotel either. Not because of his species, but because he'd burn it to the ground within five minutes.
I gotta say, what’s wrong with him not wanting to give his family business (how he wanted it to go anyways) to his blood daughter, who was actively studying and working to take over the hotel? The human thing is very crucial here, given he will die long before his son e v e r reaches full maturity. He’s going to just be a blip on his wife’s lifespan, what’s going to happen if Johnny flips out on his wife one day from a mid life crisis and decides it’s okay to divorce his wife and take the hotel in the divorce? Plus, after the original Hotel Transylvania, all of Johnny’s ideas were Anti-Monster ideas, no matter how much he proclaimed he loved the hotel’s wackiness. (Loudest example I remember is when he called the monster magician’s acts stale just for involving monster physics)
Exactly. It's like in the 4th movie, Dracula goes back to his old ways. And Johnny acts more like a man-child in that movie. Couldn't the writers mature him throughout the franchise? Like, they could've made the 2nd movie of him and Mavis going out on adventures and he would mature more along the way. Then at some point in the 3rd movie (which would be what the 2nd movie is), he would mature even more by the responsibilities as a parent. Then the 4th movie could be about the family going on a vacation and Johnny and Mavis can explore again.
I'd like to point out, I honestly never viewed Mavis as goth, exactly. With how the monster cast is portrayed, it seems each species has it's own customs, cultures, and clothing styles associated with them. Every vampire we see wears black clothes, the women having black lipstick. While there is nothing wrong with calling Mavis goth, I interpret her design as cultural continuity personally. And even tho she, yeah, is designed to look goth, I dont see how that makes her "better" or "above" Johny Even if the "every man" trope is over used, there's nothing wrong with it. And Hotel Transilvania is still a wonderful story (the first one at least. The second was ok. The 3rd and 4th are... I will not rewatch them. I hate that Drac got a second Zing. He didnt need that. He could have made mature unbiased friend he could use to rely on when he needed advice about Mavis. Those movies could have become alot more interesting.) Yeah, alot of girl can be petty. (Keep in mind I'm writing from a girl perspective) They're picky about the guy not having red hair, not being shorter than 6ft or at least not shorter than them, the bf has to spend half his paychecks on her with no financial gifts from her to him. Its stupid, and I think the every man trope is just what we need to normalize not dating the hottest guy and not being insecure about that. People can have types. And some people are generically hot. That wont change. But no one should base their standards of who they "deserve" based on how someone looks Mavis never stayed up past sunrise before because she was scared of it. Her father engraved fear of the humans and sun into her for years. No wonder she'd never seen it or been pressured to before!! And Mavis is more than a 2 dimensional character who likes Johny for no reason. She likes learning new things and he is a fun and relaxed person to rely on in new experiences. He likes showing her things. If anything, she was infantilized through the first and second movies because she had a child-like wonder about it all Why is Johny criticized for that when she isn't? She likes he goofy nature, but she doesn't make excuses when he messes up. When he lied to her about Dennis she was mad at him and Drac They both messed up, so she made it clear she wasnt okay with it and took the reigns back. She didn't go "it's okay, Johny didn't know better" And when it was revealed he was human, she was clearly hurt. She felt betrayed. Especially after Drac made Johny say he hated her. She believed Johny even though it was a lie. She is aware he's capable of mature wrong-doings. She can accept he's goofy without infantilizing him.
Thank you!! I always thought it was ridiculous that men who acted like children and didn’t care for their appearance could get absolute 10/10 women in media. It always made me question my worth when I was a little girl. “You mean, I could be fit, have a great job, personality, etc, and the best I can get is a man-child?” Edit: This blew up and I wanted to clear up some things. One is people taking this too personally or attacking me personally. I am NOT saying I am a 10/10 or whatever and therefore I deserve the same, this is a hypothetical. I am calling out this stupid trope and how it shaped my world view as a child. Another, is that this is superficial. You have expectations for your partner, that’s just a reality. Expecting your partner not to be a man-child is not a high expectation. How you interpret “man-child” can vary, I interpret this as Johnny or someone who won’t take responsibility in general. Marry, date, who ever the fuck you want to. You know yourself, if you prefer a slim dude with curly hair, go for it. If you like butch women, go for it. I never said anyones preferences were invalid. Lastly, if I made anyone feel insecure, then maybe this is a sign to work on yourself, man or woman. Drink more water, goodbye.
The amount of superficial judgement in this comment section is unreal. Also that apparently so many women think that being a quote-on-quote "10/10" (let me tell you a secret, you are most definitely *not* a 10/10) somehow entitles them to getting a perfect man who's buff, good looking, successful and rich while making fun of and insulting anyone they deem a "man-child". Honestly guys, I thought these types of women only existed in cartoons. It's ridiculous.
@@gazelle_diamond9768 yeah true i also thought why everyone thinks that mavis or "10/10" woman can't come to like a funny/goofy character. It seems they think that only because she's a hot goth girl she has to like a gigachad or something.
i like reading those (isekais) bc theyre so fucking predictable its funny and they usually have pretty cool powers or abilities that give me inspiration for writing my own stuff.
As someone who’s been watching anime since the late 90s with my first exposure to harems being Tenchi Muyo I never want to see another isekai and/or harem anime ever again.
@@LoveAndSnapple you'll find a few good Isekais. occasionally. very fucking rarely. but they can be good. Grimgar is one of my favorites. Though you can make the argument that Grimgar is a rare case of an everyman character done right... I totally get your point though, Isekais and harem animes are a shitty everyman wasteland of garbage.
When you said this was wish fulfillment for manchildren, you were spot-on. It's a serious problem in our culture where people are told they can be shallow, immature, and degenerate and there will be no consequences at all. Mavis' physical design is the only good thing about this movie.
Absolutely. Most boomers are in this kind of relationship right now and the women will die without ever knowing true love and what an equal relationship is supposed to be, whereas the men will never truly grow up and don't know why they're so bitter all the time.
@@LangkeeLongkee it's actually men that are told they always have to do better,no matter how unrealistic that is. Women in the modern day are the ones who feel entitled to rich handsome men,then "settle" for a perfectly fine,normal guy,then resent him for it. Whatever age you guys are living in is over,in the real world women are the ones with gigantic checklists of requirements to be in a relationship with them,while most guys take the first thing that comes their way and they think that she's all they deserve.
@@thelonesurvivor3955 oh no, what a terrible time we live in where women have boundaries and self respect and won't take any thing walking with a third leg between the two. How sad.
Sadly, Jhony was a good match for Mavies in the first movie, they weren't perfect but he was a good option for a first serious relationship. He knew about culture and history, he loved adventure, he was openminded, he was positive and was able to understand and adapt to wherever they are. While they really needed more work in the relationship, he was kind of good when it started, and could have been better with proper development, but they destroyed him in the rest of the movies.
The whole point of the "everyman" is to build him into literally anything else. It's the beginning of a journey, not a destination. The reason why it works is because we enjoy watching ordinary people become extraordinary. The story that comes with that is the fun part. If you keep your everyman an everyman without explicitly writing for it, it kinda comes off weird or boring.
Yeah that's it! Johnny doesn't reeally change or grow in any way. I don't root for him, I don't feel satisfied watching him in the franchise at all. His only purpose was finished in the first movie, and they weren't planning to expand him further.
I think one of the biggest problems with this trope, particularly with how it is currently utilized, is that the writers try to make an average guy and end making a below-average guy. Real, everyday people have hobbies and interests and skills. Contemporary writers attempting an everyman often end up aiming for the least common denominator and present someone who is bland, unintelligent, has no interests outside of pop culture, and has few if any distinct personality traits.
Thats the problem, you can't have them gain hobbies and character traits like enjoying a certain food, a certain way of dialect etc. Lest tmyou risk them becoming too much of a character the everyman trope basically has everything that would make them unique stripped away.
@@halinaqi2194 An everyman doesn't have to be a complete blank slate. They can have a personality. They just need to be broadly relatable to a majority of the audience. Dr. Watson is a classic example. He is relatable to the average person as he follows after the brilliant Sherlock Holmes and has many of the same reactions that an average person would have in such situations. But at the same time he is an intelligent man, a doctor, a war veteran, a skilled marksman, a writer. He's an everyman that allows the audience to insert themselves next to the genius detective, but he still has a character of his own.
@@CalliopePony They fr missed with Johnny. He DID have a hobby. Travelling. Learning about cultures and their stories and histories (know this bc he tells Drac the legend) but they do nothing with it
The only Every-man I’ve REALLY liked so far is Brett from inside job. Cause he still feels like an individual and has interesting relationships with the rest of the main cast despite being the most normal one out of them all.
Brett also has some personal issues caused by his abandonment by his family, which he finds in his coworkers as their relationships get stronger. The everyman trope isn't bad on its own. It's how it's executed
Aren't every-mans supposed to be kind of average? Johnny seems a little below average, at least in intelligence. Especially by the third movie. haven't seen the forth.
Brett stands out to me because he's a rare example of a morally good yes-man frat boy. His first episode is about taking this rather mundane, usually antagonistic trope and adding depth and the ability to coexist and cooperate with it. Yes, he has traits of trying to be the perfectly average everyman that everybody likes. He slots in nicely as the target of exposition. But he stands out in the setting, and isn't necessarily supposed to be someone the audience sees themselves as, especially at first.
Plus, Brett is not a love interest! He's just a good friend to Raegan. Female&male friendship is honestly a very underrated relationship dynamic in media
@@nessie968 At least so far. I have the underlying feeling they are gonna pull a sneaky on us and have the two get together, but knowing the show, they would most likely take time to develop their relationship properly. That said, I wouldn't mind the two staying friends, in fact, I actually prefer that
The thing is I can understand why she fell for Johnny in the first movie. He was more than just the every goofy man. He was interested in the world and very social with a friendly demeanor. Hell we literally see him use his knowledge of the world that he not only likes to see but learn about when drac showed his wife to him. Johnny wasn’t a dumb weirdo, he was smart and extroverted but it was so heavily underutilized. They focused more on his quirks than his pretty great traits, in the second movie it could have been about Johnny taking mavis to see the world and showing off his knowledge maybe make it him trying to juggle his tendencies to not be able to stay in one place for long and give attention to mavis on the trip. It could’ve been a great way to show how smart about the world Johnny actually is, they kept him as a doofus instead of the great parts of him we saw in the first movie. It annoyed the hell out of me.
The trope feels very "Happy Madison" if that makes sense, especially since they were involved with some of the Hotel films. We have this sexy or high profile or successful woman who _just can't seem to resist the undying, infectious, and (overly) supported charm of this wacky, goofy man(child)_ who as far as we know is an utter loser.
@@tyreviews6774 Remember wolf boy? Good cause I don't remember his name. Anyway Bella got pregnant and had a daughter. He imprinted on her daughter so she will one day become his mate. Yeah it's as creepy as it sounds.
@@tyreviews6774 I guess that it's the one where Jacob, the loser from the main love triangle, actually didn't fell in love with Bella, the protagonist, but to her yet to be born daughter that grew super fast for some shit reason
Mavis can fit into the "innocent but sexy" trope. She's never seen the real world, she has no standards for what makes a good human. She just turned 18. This is the perfect fantasy for people who identify with the "average man child" character. A perfect 'victim' who will view them as awesome and perfect, easy to dominate, just because they don't know any better. The afterwards she just goes into the "mature woman character who takes care of but somehow still romantically loves the man child."
The fact that an animated show about a talking horse can break that trope is kinda funny. Diane Nguyen from Bojack Horseman KILLS this trope. She starts out innocent, sexy and submissive to powerful men like Bojack Horseman and her then-husband: Mr Peanutbutter. Mr peanutbutter is a man-child who is loved by the world and has been implied to have white privilege. He treats her like how he wants to be treated, like a child. Diane is even forced to back down from fighting against a r*pist due to the fact Mr Peanutbutter was working with him. Eventually, she stands her ground and divorces him and stands up to Bojack.
I feel like Mavis was supposed to be an actual character but the writers just gave her the task of doing whatever they think is "women stuff", like getting pregnant, constantly contradicting men and being pretty or something.
They should have at least made him a bit more like Jonathan from the original Dracula novel. That man was just a polite little Englishman who just accepted the wacky shit that was constantly happening to him. He was a lawyer who was smart but didn't even bat an eye when Dracula started spidercrawling on the ceiling. I just want this man to be functional, but also the type of person who would easily get kidnapped. He's got his shit together, but only knida. It would be sweet if Mavis fell for him slowly, and all because she liked his quirky, yet polite, personality.
johnny in the first movie is alright to me but they dumbed him down way too much in the sequels for my liking. he was already dumb but they really just cranked it up to 11
Yeah. Johnny in one and two is a loveable doof but he does get more and more dumbed down tbh which sucks. He should be maturing more while maintaining some of that fun goofiness. In 4 he had some good character moments here and there(like being the jungle expert when he and Drac were on their quest) but overall was still dumb Johnny. Mavis doesn't get much character development either. And Drac's arc kinda gets reset each film which is a bummer. If they ever do a fifth film I hope they mature him a bit and perhaps we get more time seeing him and Mavis as a couple cause after the first film they took a backseat tbh
For me personally, I have mixed feelings about this trope. If it's done poorly, it's done REALLY poorly and comes across as some incel fantasy - but if it's done well (unpopular opinion in 3...2...), then I think it can actually be really cute! I can't actually judge Johnny and Mavis's relationship, since I haven't watched the Hotel Transylvania movies, but that's just my personal hot take.
3:04 Just to clarify, animators don’t design the characters, concept artists and character designers do. Animators do the animation, art direction is an entirely different department.
I actually enjoyed the first movie and loved Mavis the most.... But I couldn't stand Johnny. The "zing" aka "soulmates" thing felt like it was trapping Mavis into this relationship. She didn't fall in love with him for his personality, she fell for him because FATE decided their souls were bonded together. Poor girl.
The "protagonist needs to be as bland as possible to be an audience surrogate" trope, in trying to give the audience a blank canvas to roleplay themselves into for immersion, assumes that the audience is also bland. The design expects us to immerse ourselves in the story through a character that is nothing like us. Human lives are complex. Each and every single one of us is a unique individual with their own personalities, morals, goals, flaws, etc. So when we go see a movie, or read a book, or play a video game in which the protagonist is nothing like us because his design is meant to be *_and remain_* a hollow shell, the result is that no one gets the immersion the creators were aiming for because all you can think of is "why couldn't we have a character that behaves like an actual realistic human instead of this mannequin that sticks out like a sore thumb in the narrative?"
This, so much this. Do creators of bland audience inserts really believe humans have nothing more interesting going on? Are they themselves so devoid of any dreams and personalities outside of the most basic framework, that they think the rest must be as well? Do they honestly think it seems *fun* to imagine oneself as someone without interests, dreams, style, personality, opinions, rich inner life, or anything, really?
I wouldn't say humans are þat unique: þere are behavioural pattern in humans þat just repeat and repeat and repeat. Actually þere are classes of human conduct which prove true if certain conditions are achieved
You're half right. A character you can relate to is important. A blander audience surrogate is not a bad trope inherently, humans operate on a level of relatability often to our detriment, it's why we like dogs and people say foolish things like your pet snake can't love you, because can't relate to the way a snake might express fondness (if a snake can DISLIKE a specific person, I find it rather hard to believe they can't LIKE a specific person, and I've never seen any legitimate zoology that says so with certainty). Having a character that's meant to be the audience's surrogate but is very very personality driven and possibly very opinionated runs the risk of turning off people who aren't anything like that, they can't immerse themselves through a character they're nothing like. It's why a lot of open world video games have main playable characters that exist to be you and that's it, though there are also some like Horizon where the character does have a strong personality. What comes with that is some people are going to really like Aloy from that game, some people aren't, and that's fine because we dislike people in real life for no particular reason too. But when you want to audience to see themselves in a character, giving them a strong personality will make them relatable to some and exclude others. Neither is good or bad inherently. There's nothing wrong with making a character meant to relate to specific audiences, like a character from a marginalized group where their experience is highly relevant to the story for example, also nothing wrong with a blank slate. But Johnny is just a ""blank slate"" who is actually a man child. And does have personality, just a very off putting one with no depth.
@@Wanettepoems I hate it how even though characters who get the most relatability are ones like Harley Quinn, The Joker (from the stand-alone movie) and similar power fantasy icons, the everyman or woman trope is used so commonly. It's most overused in Japan with the dating sims and games where you're a blank character who could be anyone. In east Asia the culture is one of blending in opposed to the western culture of standing out, so it's very normal over there, but it really doesn't translate over to that western audience that well. That doesn't stop Hollywood from using that trope anyway, because Hollywood.
I love how the Lego movie did this trope. The movie is literally based around emmet being the boring person he is. Emmet has no hobbies, nothing he likes to do in his free time, except for what the government tells him. And in the end, he became someone, which I really appreciate. The Lego movie is my favorite movie for this reason.
wtf
Hey, don't forget the double decker couch. That was an excellent idea lol
@@julias.6658 he was an everyman, but he still had ideas. He was unique in that sense, which is ironic.
This is why I feel like the everyman trope isn’t the main villain here. It’s the overall *execution* of it
@@julias.6658 lmao I remember that
Imagine if Johnny was written as a huge horror nerd who initially was only interested in Mavis because she was a real vampire and likewise, Mavis only liked him because he's the first real human she's met. But they grow to appreciate each other as their own people and not just objects of interest from an unknown culture the more they get to know each other. It would even make Dracula's initial dislike of Johnny a bit more understandable because he doesn't want his daughter to be gawked at like she's some kind of rare zoo animal.
That would've been a lot better yeah
That actually makes for a heckin more interesting plot and characters. Get on Ao3 you.
*ÇHORUS* is my inspiration!! My mom said that if I got 50k subscribers!! She definitely buy me a professional mic!! *begging you GUYS alot* literally begging..
God, that's like 500% better than what we got. Someone get the op in the writer's room pls
Well written. You seem to have a talent for this.
what drove me crazy about this movie is that johnny practically had more chemistry with mavis’ dad than he did with her
Holy shit right??? They have zero chemistry! He and Dracula learning to like each other was ten times more interesting than any scene with him and mavis together.
THE MOVIES ARE ABOUT DRAC NOT JOHNNY
AHEM (i married my father in law)
@@AJ-fv3ej i don't like how i immediately knew what you were talking about
Haha
What bothers me about their relationship is that Mavis lost her mom before she can even remember her. And then she has a kid with Johnny... and her kid will probably lose his dad very young because he stayed HUMAN. Mavis and their kid are immortal, Johnny is not. So instead of dealing with this and making their relationship interesting they ignore it.
I think they should have finished off the franchise with Dracula officially retiring and mavis and Johnny taking over the hotel by Mavis making Johnny vampire, officially making him part of the family. I know it goes against all four movies about how he’s a human, but the audience is smarter than that. Even children who are old enough to have that realization will realize how unaddressed it is.
If Johnny doesn’t become a vampire in the 5th movie imma be upset
@@geomania8533Movie series is over. It literally ended with Johnny having a tantrum and Drac giving in to his every demand, instead of stating how f%cking ridiculous it is to just give over his hotel to his human son in law when his blood daughter was looking to take over.
They explored it on the 4th movie BUT IT WAS JUST "oh you'll be happier if i'm a monster so i can fit in better"
@@MillyThe_Rat You're surprised that they didn't make the inevitability of old age and death a major plot point in an animated movie for kids?
I hate Jonny in the sequels. He is a father for several years, but still acts like a surfer/stoner teen. Wouldn't the time as a father mature him a bit. It would been a good way to show character growth, progession
You really haven’t met many parents huh? Just because people have a child doesn’t mean they mature.
@@discolullaby5777 Yes. But the stereotype of the stupid father must die. It’s really annoying see as while the mother is the responsable one the father is the irresponsable one. The worst part is that stereotype is not funny. Johnny is not funny.. and only is frustrating see how Mavis have to justify his stupid actions.
@@discolullaby5777 Johnny being one of those parents just makes me hate him even more
While some parents still act immature, for a narrative prospective it would make sense for the characters to mature. For example:
Mavis: "You are sounding just like my dad !"
Johnny: "That because I am a dad"
@@monicaaboites5053 She doesn't even justify it. She knows his actions are stupid and supports him anyway. That's just being loyal wife and unfortunately an enabler.
I only remember one scene with Mavis and Johnny that actually got to me. They’re standing on the roof about to watch the sunrise for her first time, and she’s so freaking mesmerized that she forgets the sun will hurt her. Johnny notices and very gently pulls her back into the shade so she can stay out and enjoy the view without getting hurt.
Yeah, their relationship was clunky and awkward and not well written, but it did have its moments.
You heard right folks, an endearing moment is not letting your wife die while you're both taking part in an activity which you know could very well kill her but has no chance of hurting you.
Omg , yes totally
I understand that Mavis and Johnny are not the best couple but this happens in reality too that a 10 women likes a less average man . Cough cough “ She’s way out of my league” movie
But it’s not like Johnny doesn’t care about her like this scene you are talking about
These guys genuinely fell in love and I love it for that and it’s not Mavis fault that the first human man to appear in her life is someone she fell fall and marry off.
The only thing I didn’t like was the part 4 of this series
It doesn’t make sense to me how papa Dracula went from not liking Johnny to forgetting about Johnny (2nd movie)to liking another woman (3rd movie) and to again in the end not liking Johnny
@@urvijain9638 its the thing with zing on vampires
it did, but still they're not couple material
I hated this scene because internally I was screaming "THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE, YOU CAN'T SEE THE SUN IF YOUR HEAD IS IN THE SHADE"
Yeah it always bummed me out that Mavis went from wanting to see the world then immediately to stay at home mom. Her character had so much potential but they never let her be the star of the story. The 4th movie wasn't very good but it at least gave Mavis and Ericka some agency having to be the ones to save their dumb husbands from the trouble they caused.
She did see the world. Her marrying Johnny and having Dennis were a few years after that. There were time skips.
@@tytheaniman497 I wish they had elaborated those moments instead of making them time skip.
@@Isokatmydydecsf Agree, if the movie doesn't show us what happened, how im a suppose to know that happened?
agreed! the only thing that made me enjoy the 4th movie was ericka and mavis working together.
@@noselftokill we don't see that step& parent and step-child dynamic that often
It annoys me that in the 5ish years Dennis has been alive, he’s already done more adventuring than poor Mavis in her entire life
That’s why both he and Winnie deserve their own movie or show.
To be fair she will outlive both her son and husband, so is not like she is wasting her life by staying with them.
@@mado-wh4jvDennis is half-vampire.
@@KnightEclipser And have lived for overly 1 century while her son is 5 and is a toddler.when he should be newborn or unborn uyet
He's full vampire lol, he turned at the end of the 2nd one. @@KnightEclipser
In the totally necessary 4th movie everyone was apparently rioting to get, it was honestly kinda interesting to see Johnny demonstrate a proficiency over Dracula, backpack traveling. He actually shown and given wisdom to Dracula, an immortal being who lived many lifetimes, but it still falls short to the fact that Johnny is still the man-child he was since the first film.
It's one of the things I hate about the sequels, is the resetting of characters. in the first movie, Dracula learns and grows so much, but in the second film, he's right back to being a selfish jerk, continuously stepping on Mavis and Johnny toes as the parents of Denis. Can't comment too much on the last two films and the shorts, because I haven'tseen them. But from what I've heard Dracula, is still a selfish jerk.
Why is every man a low bar . What the every woman
@@smartass0124 in this case the Everyman is a character with only just enough relatability to be the audiences self insert, they’re not actually a fleshed out character with a complex/individual personality or identity.
There’s absolutely stories out there that do this with the genders in reverse, from the normal very average, often unpopular girl getting the most 10/10 attractive, wealthy male love interest, or dating the most popular guy in school for being “different” when there’s no substance to them at all, or poor average girl becoming a princess, etc, when they’re just the audience self insert.
In these kinds of stories it’s intentionally written this way for Audiences wish fulfilment and not for making a better character or story. It’s unfortunate but it sells, especially with the young teen audience.
@@Sanakudou now you’re making me curious what an Audi wish fulfillment movie would look like
It's a headcannon of mine that Johnny isn't human.He's secretly some monster who's good at manipulating people
I feel Mavis and Johnny would’ve been better of as friends. Each helping each other navigate a new world and helping them come to the grips with their shortcomings.
I agree, there just wasn’t enough development in order to justify marrying the two off and then having a kid. In the sequels they both could’ve went on adventures and then as they mature their relationship could’ve become more romantic and serious. Or not, not every series needs a romance.
Oh no, the horrors, a male, and a female, being *friends*?!?!?! And just *friends*?!
And they *weren't* childhood friends
They met each other, and *instead* of falling in love immediately, they become *friends*?!?!
Nah bro
Zero realism
Absolutely nothing good would come from it
Absolutely not
Never ever would happen ever
Let's never let that be common ever
Sorry kiddos, friends are for weirdos, especially if it's of the opposite gender!!
Never will ever happen ever in real life ever
Oh! Here's an idea! Make Johnny's character a girl (just not an annoying one like irl Johnny)! Have Mavis get her first human friend and learn about the real world through girl bonding, then it would be empowering to have a confident girl break Mavis out of her shell and out from under her dad's thumb.
@@MidnightDarkness666 That's literally the best idea ever! It'd be even cooler if female Johnny (whom I'll refer as Josie) had parents who hated monsters. Both Mavis and Josie would bond over their overbearing parents. It would give Josie the mindset that vampires are bad, so they'd have a cool enemies to best friends arc.
@@letsalllovelean478 that would be interesting and then through their whole friendship and start dating boys Mavis finally gets dating experience instead of marrying the first human guy she meets just because of The zing which is the monster excuse for love at first sight
They didn't even let Mavis ACTUALLY do some adventuring/exploring, they just married her off and by the sequel she already has a baby
She wasn’t the main character of the series. It was Dracula. She was always more related to the plot like her having a kid so Dracula could be a grandfather and have a plot for him.
@@alexanderguerrero347 yeah but she's still essential and her arc (and the first movie's whole plot) was literally her wanting to go out and travel
@UltimateCheetah3000 teen parents aren't something uncommon these days. Plus, this pregnancy was planned and Mavis is happy. She will never age and has plenty of time to live her infinite life after her child grows up. It's not like she is left in poverty with no financial stability and help.
This is a Disney movie yes? Pretty much the norm for them
yes , ew
The girl that wants to be free and explore the world, that inmediatly after her first romance gets married and has a child has to be one of the worst tropes, it's like you definetly took away what she desired on the first place
I bet the writers were just being lazy because they wanted more of a cash grab with a cute kid or some thing like that.
Haha. Women have dreams. Man come. Women go birth and sign their life away. Life of average women
@@rae-rae8005 It's mostly because Mavis and Johnny aren't the main character of the movie, Dracula is, the other two are just a subplot to what basically is Dracula learning he needs to let go of his insecurities and fears to move onto a better world. Then it comes to his shenanigans as a grandfather trying to overcome his bias and pressuring.
@@rae-rae8005 Hey Dennis was awesome!!
@@insertname3977 That’s the problem. They focus too much on Drac sadly pushing everyone else to the side and you don’t do that.
It was bugged me that Johnny starts off the first movie as 21 and him being the everyman-slacker with no real direction is fine but he spends years of his life between the movies and nothing about him changes. If I remember right he's like 29 by the 4th movie, so he's been with Mavis for like 8 years. For a human that is a decent chunk of time, they could have made some really nice plot lines involving the fact that Johnny is growing older faster than the monsters, he matures and changes very fast for their perspective. Its pretty normal for someone to experience a lot of personal growth in their 20s too, I think it would have been fine if he did remain a goofy guy but as he got older he gained a more complex personality.
That’s such a good point! They definitely should’ve explored that more.
I love how everyone casually forgets he will die before his child is mature enough to watch R rated movies. If 118 equals 18, then when he's on his death bed in 60 years his kid will be somewhere around a human 8 or 9.
@@toxihex876 actuallly no, his son grows as fast as a human
They shouldve explored that and how it affects the relationship. At the beginning its weird Mav is sheltered and she would normally be 18 by human standards but she couldnt really mature by experiencing hardship or interacting with similarly aged people. So she may only be about 14 mentally. Now the other dude is 21 or 28, dunno, and there is a gap between them from the start. He just has more life-experience, even if its not that much. If it continues he will mature and by 60 he'll maybe act and think like a 60 year old while she thinks like a 20 year old. Would that repulse him? Or how would he deal with dating someone that is like a child to him (mentally).
Kinda like in the Twilight movies?
It has the same vibe as regular bland anime protagonists getting a handout of the powers of a god and having EVERY side character OBSESSED with their "charm".
*"I'm just your average high schooler"*
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Similar but not nearly as painful. Johnny only has ONE girl that likes him.
Also, I love how in anime it's often like this - the protagonist (could be male or female) was the typical, average person for their entire life, no one ever found them very attractive or interesting, nothing special about their personality or hobbies or talents etc. Kinda like a background character, you know like a "Girl E" or "Boy F" in the roll credits
But then when the action of the anime starts (with the first episode) suddenly for some reason everyone is interested in them, everyone wants to date them, or be friends with them or be enemies with them... The ENTIRE WORLD starts to focus on that one person for no reason. And we as the viewers are suppose to believe that and accept it
@@Nuti196 That's kinda fallen out of style in anime now though. The bland anime protag was always an openly obvious way people could self insert into. Nowadays though, you usually get over the top, godlike powers relatively quickly, and that's usually the basis for why everyone falls head over heels for them. If you want you cake and eat it, have them be normal, bland MC in the real world, but make them into blatant power fantasy once they get reincarnated or transported into another world or start playing this VR videogame.
Spoilers for Danganronpa 2 and up>>
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Like for Hajime from Danganronpa 2, they used this "average-ess" trope as a plot point for the series universe. It has importance, and goes in depth with the character's struggle with acknowledging his less skills/abilties/interesting behavior from the rest of the cast. Hajime actually has a personality. And is considered "boring, talentless, normal" person as types of insults.
I think this pairing is fine but the second movie should have been devoted to developing Mavis’s and Johnny’s character, not how Dracula’s crippling abandonment issues.
These movies, at least the major story beats, happen in the wrong order. Feel like it shoulda been 1, 4, 3, 2.
Girl meets Human
Human actually succeeds in getting dad to like him (That's all he did in 4 really)
Dad gets a chance to let go and move on with his life
Girl becomes Mom and risks making a buncha the same mistakes.
That said, I do understand some of the other story beats can only happen when they do honestly. Mavis meeting Johnnys family and the human world would be a fine excuse to basically write her out of the new two. And Drac can in theory only really give the hotel away in the "Final" movie. But you still coulda introduces Van Helsing in 2, prove Drac right a little then let his grand whatever prove him wrong in the next one.
ralph breaks the internet did the exact same thing. they could've expanded on individual characters but instead they made Ralph a big man baby with abandonment issues.
@@hvnlei Ikr I found the way he was so clingy with Venelope kinda creepy
@@hvnlei just when I was starting to forget it
@@hvnlei i never watched it and i think it's for the best that i don't 😌
Johnny was so much more well written in the first movie. He was an adventurous outgoing guy who had travelled the world. Its easy to see how mavis would be attracted towards him after being sheltered and stuck in one place her entire life. He was doing what she so desperately wanted to do. We could actually see Johnny being a smart individual, seeing through what dracula was trying to do, being creative and outgoing enough to gravitate everyone towards him. The sequels just washed all that away and left us with a husk of a character, the clumsy, naive, annoying yes man. The 4th movie really ruined him.
YES. This is exactly how I feel. He actually had layers to him in the first movie. You could see he was an outgoing guy, but he had feelings and, instead of trying to laugh everything off, he acted . . . maturely. Now that's all gone.
YES!! i just watched the fourth movie and i honestly cried over how messed up johnny was. he acted like my four years old cousin with ADHD super irresponsible and childish in an annoying way. in the first movie he was amazing, i enjoyed his realitionship with dracula which continued into movie two and three, i think the chemistry between him and mavis was actually there esp. in the third movie but the fourth one..was just...disaster
Yup
And relationships like that don't usually work out. Once the novelty wears off, the bickering and resentment kicks in.
I agree
I like the first movie i thunk the ending was amazing and the sequels should have focused on Mavis and Johnny 's adventures
Mavis getting married and having a baby straight away always felt off, I think showing her and Johnny exploring and growing up together for a bit would have been a million times better. The wedding and the dead weight baby should have been part of the last movie. Johnny is an explorer by nature and Mavis craves adventure, by the end of the first movie there looks like a story building there but instead they have her get pregnant when she still looks barely 20 and hasn't gone on the adventure she deserves. And her and Johnny still need to grow up a bit, that should have been a plot point. It felt lazy!
While I do think Dennis was a cute addition, it was way too soon for him to come into the franchise and other than the second movie, didn't really affect the plots.
You guys take the words out of my mouth, just more smarter ❤️🔥🙏🏽
I doubt any kid would want it watch: “ *Hotel Transylvania - Marital Problems!* “
@@AgentMulder120 18 and 21 is only like four years. That's a freshman dating a senior. Weird but not like, sus.
And Mavis is like literally several centuries older than 18 also, if we're talking sus lmAo
@@AgentMulder120
Technically Mavis is way older than the guy. If we are talking about years. The guy is like a baby compared to her & even if she was 18 years old, they would be a few years apart. A freshman & a Senior. I don’t know the obsession with age difference. I only care when is a young kid & an full grown adult. If both adults consent, I don’t care. At 18 you can legally marry. The brain doesn’t fully develop until 25, so Jonny is young.
johnny literally has more chemistry with dracula then he does with his own perfect 100/10 goth wife
Literally lol
ITS TRUE, LIKE MOVIE 4 WAS ABOUT THEIR RELATIONSHIP💀💀
Maybe because subtletly the writers are portraying a sexist and chauvinistic relationship in which the father allows the man to be with his daughter because she is his father's property?
Idk, just a thought.
@@donalvarito3165 I always saw him as a father learning that his daughter has to make her own life and that she is no longer a baby.
@@donalvarito3165 something like helicopter mothers
Honestly, he's kinda boring if he's just grouped with Mavis but I think his strongest is when he and Dracula play off each other. Dracula is basically the main character with Jonny being his foil while Mavis is more secondary to the duo.
But he's a bad foil, that's the issue. Foil characters are great when they're actual characters and not just a walking, talking, plot device.
i think thats why people ship Drac and Johnny together bc they have more "chemistry" than the actual love interest
when that happens you know this movie fucked up. wth?!?
guess draucs is right about not liking Johnny
@@y.9645 To be fair, shippers will make a ship out of any two characters even remotely related to each other.
I dont even think of him as an everyman. He is just straight moronic to the point of being annoying. Its kind of like how the original simpsons had homer as being dim witted but good hearted and family loving. Meanwhile later simpsons have homer as a pathological liar who is a danger tohimself , his family, and the town at all times. Willing to put his family in danger for a donut.
Characters all need SOMETHING to pull you in, and johnny just has nothing
"To willing to lie to his wife so his father in law can abuse abuse his grandson into having vampire puberty"
I just realized how f up this series is 💀
Same.
Same..
this sentence messed up my thoughts can you explain in a human way
@@mcrain1283Is just a purposely dark way to say "Funny dad, lies to helicopter mom so the grandad and grandson can spent time together"
Except that the grandad is actually grooming the child into becoming a old fashioned vampire at the age of 5 when Mavis was like 44 years old when she first learned to turn into a bat.
Maybe I should stop watching Hotel Transylvania
Mavis: "I love the way he is"
Johnny: *proceeds acting like a 9 year old in a 26 years old's body*
XD
Man-children are the worst...been there done that and I'm NEVER doing it again.😝
Exactly!
Fr, like she met a young guy and dated for no reason
Yes
The sunrise scene would have worked so much better if Johnny had used his phone to take a video of it to show Mavis. It makes more sense because it’s impossible to see a sunrise without being hit by its light rays, and it doesn’t make Mavis seem like an idiot who was either too scared to look until Johnny came around, or just never thought of looking past a corner (which, again, doesn’t make any sense considering you can see the sunrise reflect in her eyes without any sunlight on her at all)
I keep thinking about this each time the scene comes to mind, that it's not possible, and I'm always trying to think "okay but if it's from an angle?" and I like try to imitate it with objects, and I always think I'm just dumb, but each time I just conclude whatever I did first, that "it's not physically possible."- and I just wonder how I never heard anyone point that out???.... so idk what the point of my comment was other than: thank you, I now no longer think I'm crazy.
Yeah!!! And the use of modern technology to bridge the gap between them would tie in nicely to mavis’s growing acceptance of humans.
Yes, this makes so much sense! Is like in Interview with the vampire, when Louis can see the sun again when he watch a movie for the first time, is a perfect example and that scene works as a very emotional moment for him
Movie would have been better with Mavis dying right there. The movie switches to a depressing story about Johnny's guilt and regret.
@@tinytanaka8779 Ok, that went way too dark.
I honestly never liked Johnny, didn't hate him but i found him too annoying. And tbh he doesn't strikes me as a person who is mature enought to have a child (compare him to Mavis who does seem young but does act like a new mom) the bad thing is that i love Andy Samberg,i think he is a very funny a charming guy,deserved a better character
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Agreed
I often feel like Johnny was a form a self insert for the writers or crew (it obviously couldn't be genndy tartakovsky because he actually has a wife and a child.) I've that is super common for male writers to self insert themselves into a story, and have that character in up with their ideal dream girl. Which is why tropes like the magical girlfriend, boy meets ghoul, and manic pixie dream girl are super common; and why you hardly ever see genderbend version of those tropes.
Also I've heard that Mavis was originally for a different movie. And I think in that movie Mavis would have fall in love with the descendant of Van Helsing.
@@kittykittybangbang9367 Yeah man how dare these writers use their own personal imagination to create a FANTASY WORLD that they made themselves. Thats how all writing works not just "MALE WRITERS GRR" lol. Granted they should've made his character better but you know why they didnt?.....idiots are objectively funny for kids. Mavis loving an idiot is literally the joke and plot of the first movie. Not to even mention shes not the main reason people watched the movie. They watched it for MONSTERS haha.
@@fatty1040 th-cam.com/video/cRriLTBDlgM/w-d-xo.html
i had a dream about hotel transylvania where mavis and johnny actually get divorced/were on the verge of a divorce and he goes thru a whole character arch about growing up and becoming a more mature person while maintaining his old interests and essentially finding a way to have a balance in his life between being an absolute needy nerd/manchild and a mature adult like Mavis. basically, he had to prove he could be More than just the everyman trope.
i hated the dream because throughout the whole thing CAKE BY THE OCEAN PLAYED. CONSTANTLY. made it into a really shitty dream movie.
Damn
@@TheMrCleanSCREAMINGGGG-
There isn't probably much more everyman, than being forced by a partner to change.
Cake by the ocean LMFAO
Why is this better than most movie prompts? When this gets made Cake By The Ocean better be playing the entire time
Mylo in Atlantis is not everyman. He is very intelligent and clever. Not everyone can study ancient languages and solve riddles. He lacks confidence and is awkward but has a good heart and is brave. He is an example of first impression does not say everything
It's also not a white savior plot. Milo doesn't save Atlantis alone; the native population is the muscle that makes victory possible. Milo just happened to be able to read their hover car manuals while they lost their written language in the cataclysm that sunk Atlantis... probably via a curse or something because, I mean, it's clearly amnesia as no adult can read. They were obviously alive before the sinking. Its also not like they were helpless. They TRIED to restart their tech but failed due to missing a tiny detail which wouldn't be obvious. Also the real day saver is Princess what's her tits merging with their god-crystal to do a magic in an act symbolic of apologizing for their hubris in the past.
While I'm on the subject, can we all agree that "Mankind reached too high and so the gods smacked him down!" is a toxic fucking trope?
@@MeepChangeling lol i was so seriously invested in your explanation until "princess what's her tits" 😂 still a good explanation but even better with that
It's because he's not the audience, he's his own person, he has a defined personality and abilities. And the fact that Kida got with him (they're so cute I'll defend them to the end of times), the blond villain says at the beginning of the movie that he's single just because he wants after listening to his explanation, impressed by his intelligence
@@MeepChangeling "Mankind reached too high and so the gods smacked him down!" is less a toxic trope and more of a cautionary tale to listen to and not let our hubris kill us. Nuclear weapons being a good example and any other tech we could create that could wipe us out if we are not carful.
@@MeepChangeling No, because its something that serves a purpose. Because its not always Allah that does the smacking, case in point, the Atomic bomb. Just a few those in a few key places and we're all fucked and it will be by our own hand. Not Allah's.
Thanks for bringing up that "problem meets solution" type pairing. It's contrived, more often that not. I can understand falling for one's opposite or looking for someone with something you lack, but there's surely a way to make it more organic than the filters on a dating app. As for audience surrogates, whether it's a schlubby manchild or mousy schoolgirl, a flat (well, flatter) half of a pairing never makes for a compelling love story.
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@@namantherockstar got it, I’ll make sure to flag your channel. You’re not human, so you can’t complain :)
@@IamaPERSON I can't believe chorus has bots now
@@kittykittybangbang9367 wait, they JUST got bots?
The opposite attract trope (as well as the belligerent sexual tension trope) are so problematic, and I feel like the it even influences people's perception of the real world as well. There was this one kid in my culinary class who I hated, and could not stand. I told one of my classes my frustrations with him, and one kid legitimately thought that I had a crush on him when I obviously didn't. Luckily that kid moved and that class was only one semester, so I don't have to deal with either of them now.
My least favorite troupe is the pretty, energetic, ambitious woman dating the quirky, hot in an unattractive way, lazy guy she happened to fall for out of nowhere. Drac probably wouldn't have had a problem with Mavis dating a human if the human was someone who didn't do the bare minimum and get praised for it.
Yeah and I feel like this trope is so commonly accepted in pop culture but when its the other way around everyone suddenly hates it. Like in twilight its basically the opposite of hotel transylvania where Bella has no personality and is pretty dumb and Edward is this super chad guy who has his life together. Everyone's always super quick to point that out and hate on it but don't realize its a super common trope with the guy being the "loser", somehow its only a problem when the roles are reversed, but either way I agree this trope sucks
@@ivymeow3 twilight is overheated tho and that is because it’s targeted towards and enjoyed primarily by girls/ women
Yea and that's like a quarter of romance anime.
Just watch every Adam Sandler movie ever. He is just not a great guy and sometimes even manipulating and she is interesting, beautiful, successful and deserves better than that loser. I hate those movies because of that (and I don't like the humor, but that is a personal thing)
@@flask223 no it’s hated because it’s bad
In the real world these sorts of relationships between a sheltered girl and the first looser she meets usually end in a bitter breakup/divorce.
😅 now you tell me
I didn't see the 4th movie, but I was kinda expecting that happening there, sad it didn't
Not if she never meets anyone else 🧠
@@Real_MetagrossMaybe if there were other guys for Mavis to like it would've happened.
Seen it first hand. And it's always a messy break up
"Bang the first guy she falls for" definitely resonates with me. I hate how in most films (not just family films, but they really lay into it) want to sell the idea of first love = marriage material.
Why? It's cute
Totally agree. When you’re too young you don’t always make the best choices. Doesn’t mean you can’t find someone who is good marriage material in your first love, but yeah I’m pretty sure it’s rare.
100% it creates toxic expectations that your first relationship is THE one when in reality the majority of people need to stumble through relationships in order to learn about what they need fro themselves and their partners
Exactly! Your first relationship is almost never your best, especially if you start dating young. You have no experience with relationships, and if you're young you're more naïve and more likely to drastically change. The first one being The One is a cute concept, but it's so common that it's become the expectation, and it's not really a good thing
@@I-Not-Gonna-Take-It it's stupidly unrealistic, most people don't even do that, while in almost every movie, that's what's being shown, giving children and even teenagers/adults, the weird idea that their first relationship ever WILL and SHOULD work, and if it doesn't, then they already failed at their love life
Notice how the girl is always the one who's put together and not troublesome? Like, you've NEVER seenamovie or cartoon about a bad girl with issues being saved by a focused Chad.
Or a slacker girl who gets a guy who has his life put together.
No instead,you find it's always the guy with issues that needs to be redeemed by a decent girl.
Well,for once I'd like a decent girl to end up with a decent guy.
Let the bad boys end up with a bad girl or the slacker guy end up with the slacker girl. They CHOSE that for themselves
Yes! I also don't really remember seeing movies where the mom is goofy, relaxed and playful while the dad is constantly worried about the kid. The only type of non-serious mom that I can quickly recall is the divorcee that travels a lot or brings a lot of men home.
I want to see moms genuinely play with their kids more, not just always clean and cook while the dad gets to have fun or sit around.
I also found that a bit annoying xd
Nowadays, we're getting more hyperactive, not so prudent female protagonists in cartoons.
I know a few examples of movies/cartoons where girls aren't this perfect:
Gravity Falls
Miraculous Ladybug
Metal Family
Problem child
I think it would be a lot better if the characters bring out better traits in one another. Like Busy Body boy and the slacker girl have a shared interest. They get together Slacker girl doesn't slack off as often, and Busy Body boy learns to relax.
I just want to see two characters that make one another better cause thats what the ideal relationship is.
I’ve seen that trope, but in books (and some terrible Disney channel movies) and it’s equally as bad as this one. I prefer the trope where both of them have flaws instead of one being better than the other.
@@Lee-cr6xb Marianette is a total mary sue tho
From what Iv'e heard, apparently Mavis was going to originally be used in a romantic drama, but that ended up getting scrapped, and so her character(which had already been designed)was used for hotel Transylvania. If you think about it that way, it actually make sense why her character seems to stand out so much in the first movie, besides her just being, "the pretty one", especially in comparison to the goofy designs of every other character in the series.
I remember hearing that Mavis is from a cancelled movie but you wouldn't happen to have a source, would you? The HT and Sony Animation wikis are of little help and aren't exactly organized/reliable
Woah really? That's cool
maybe it does, I don't actually like the design of most of the characters, you can't take them seriously, none of them are of any consequence in anything really, they are background goofyness
I'm guessing she was supposed to be a Teenager too which explains why she literally looks only about 14 or 15 (ignoring her immortality thing). It's really weird to see the two with a kid because I can't get over how young the parents look.
@@southparkfirefly yeah I agree. Also I've read a comment here that said Mavis was originally going to be in a movie where she fell in love with a descendant of Van Helsing. I don't know if it's true tho
It's always the "lazy/doesnt have a fashion sense guy x Pretty, extremely hot girl who's responsible" trope. Never the opposite
Except in almost every sort of romantic comedy where the woman is a mess of a human being and gets to decide between her choices of well put together men (and the occasional bad boy).
Have you never read a YA novel written by a women? Or watched a lifetime/Hallmark movie? There are PLENTY of stories featuring a slobbish woman hooking up with a handsome men. I get that you're trying to make a point, but COME ON...
@user-rv3xn3ki1unever saw any of that. Fr. Its like, never happened. There is a reason to this kind of storie be painted as bad and boring.
@@pppf_S Then why do people watch/read so much of it? It's not because they produce too much of it. People love these types of stories because, believe it or not, most of them (men and women) can relate to the "slob" protagonist, and most people like to fantasize about dating someone they know is out of their league. It's a common fantasy. Everyone has their mold. For men, it's the slobbish, man-child who somehow manages to charm a beautiful woman into liking him. For women, its the shy, awkward, not annoying-at-all, adorkable outcast girl who gets the bad boy/hot guy and changes him into the guy of her 'dreams'. Pick your poison, lady. Both are played out and paint harsh stereotypes of every gender, but people eat that shit up.
@@FrankLee-f7y She made a bad point.
I've noticed that a lot of people seem to gloss over this one fact. Mavis and Dennis are functionally immortal, however Johnny is very much human (stated repeatedly throughout the film). Johnny is going to age while his wife and child stay the same, Mavis is going to have to one day watch her husband slowly die. Unless she turns him into a vampire, time is going to slowly take away their life together.
Same with dracula and erika. Like, she’s already atleast 50 - 60. She’s going to die and leave drac alone again
@@thefnafdetective LMAO what makes you think Ericka is 50 to 60??? Because her hair is white?
@@ambidreaming I think I saw somewhere that shes in her 40s
@@persephone9307 I'll believe 40s. That makes more sense
Any time I have the misfortune to watch these minutes, I think this exact thought
I think the main issue with Johnny is that he’s never given a character arc. Like, okay, everybody likes him, maybe he’s just charismatic, some people are just naturally good with people like that, but maybe show him being cocky and overconfident about it, perhaps Mavis doesn’t like that and finds him arrogant; now there is a conflict. The movie could have used that character trait to reveal some hidden insecurities for Johnny to have to face, humbling him, allowing him to gradually open up some vulnerabilities and self-reflection, learning to not coast through life and rely on a facade to gain the approval of others and put forth genuine effort to get to know Mavis and develop a deeper connection as he continues to grow as a person. If Johnny had this kind of character development, he could still be the relatable “Everyman” that the filmmakers want him to be, while also having a more fleshed out personality. It wouldn’t be the biggest change, but it would make him even more relatable, while also giving some added weight to the relationship dynamic between him and Mavis.
I do love this movie, but Johnny, as he is written, is a pretty one-dimensional character.
Maybe play into this humbling act:
Maybe his overconfidence would itself be the act? He would try to "fake it till you make it". When Mavis would confront him about his arrogance, Johnny would confront her about pretending she's normal, and him finding it condescending. He would be a bit of a socially awkward goof who tries to be accepted, but without this insane overconfident act he'd just be another face in the crowd
I think its having a flaw of the human condition that is common is what makes a character actually relatable. You dont actually have to have the everyman trope for them to be liked. You just need to play on a flaw most people have.
Again spot on with being maybe too confident and getting cocky or being a little too anxious. Like someone who acts with best intentions but cant control how everyone responds to their actions but wants to earn everyone's approval enough to fit in. But then learns you dont need to do that in order for people to respect you. Thats a good everyman setup.
It plays on our collectivism mindset and our internal fear/need of wanting to find where we fit amongst our other peers. And maybe learning we dont need to fit it in there at all, just need to be a better person from learning with humility.
TLDR: he's a Gary Stu (the male Mary Sue counterpart)
That's too basic a cliche to be interesting.
I'm not gonna lie I started reading this and immediately just found myself thinking about Guy from The Croods - a movie I honestly absolutely despise with every fiber of my being. I would probably rewatch the Hotel Transylvania sequels over it again and I didn't care for those either 😂
I'm just so sick of those types of characters who are basically allowed to walk on sunshine and rainbows for absolutely *no reason whatsofreakingever*. They didn't earn it, didn't do nothing for it, they're just given everything because the rules of the universe just bend to allow them their way.
Johnny wasn't even that bad, he was just friggin' bland, but at least he got an eyeroll sometimes. Guy couldn't even get that from me.
10:20 I'm going to disagree that Milo Thatch is an "Everyman". Being the Cartographer and Linguist with a passion for researching dead Languages, Ancient Civilizations, and Classical History, it gives him his own unique character. He's less of an "Audience Insert" and more of an "Idealized Hero"; he's smart, and despite how Physically Weak he is, he still actively involves himself in the Action (and manages to best people physically stronger than him with quick thinking). I don't think we were ever supposed to think we were Milo Thatch, but we were most certainly supposed to empathize with him and admire him. (Also, can we acknowledge that Milo Thatch is just Daniel Jackson from Stargate SG-1 ripped Wholesale).
Yeah Milo is way too smart and nerdy to be an everyman, he deciphers and learns to speak a "dead language," which is one of the biggest reasons that he gets the girl. More like a super scholar than an everyman
Omg I never thought he was a wholesale rip of Daniel but now I can't unsee this lmao
So much agree. I was going to say that I wish I had the same skills as Milo. He has that more goofy behavior, but it hits so, so different. It isn't goofy to make him funny, he's like that to stand out from all these serious adventurers with an agenda so unlike his own. He's there to exist in the beauty of this hidden history that he's been dreaming of since he was a kid. Everyone else arrived for money... Sure, he's the key to a lot of issues occurring within Atlantis, but not just for her, but for an entire people. If it wasn't for his admiration and love for knowledge, the people would have continued to be stuck in their past.
Kita's interest for him is similar to Astrid's in How To Train Your Dragon. At first it seems shallow, but then you remember a quote she once said, "Is this some kind of a joke to you? Our parents war is about to become ours. Figure out what side you're on." Her everything is protecting her people, so when she rode on the back of a dragon, it was basically of, 'this is it. Who else could I respect more than a person who has befriended the very beast we fear?' And, with watching the series, that becomes even more clear when her parents were nearly brought down. She seeks comfort and protection.
Agreed
I 100% agree with you
I wish a male and female lead in an animated kids' movie could just be friends for once
Disney bolt did that?
Too be fair that was also between a dog and a cat... that would be a really weird romance thing@renamon5658
@@SavySniff weird romance in kids animation happens a lot. In shrek donkey and dragon are in a relationship. And in over the hedge stella the skunk and tiger the cat became a item..... Looking back many relationships in cartoon and animation shows and movies were very weird.
Now a days it feels a little more rare for a male and a female to be in a romantic relationship I feel people should just write what's best for the story
Moana
Yknow honestly, I like the relationship with Drac and Johnny more. They bring out better parts of each other by the end of the first movie with Drac grounding Johnny a bit by telling him about himself and making Johnny actually be a bit responsible by leaving while Johnny gets Drac to have fun and helps Drac with his misanthropy. So I'd have enjoyed it even more if it was like a bromance movie instead.
funny enough, there IS a ship between those two and seeing the fanart (no, not that kind of fanart-) they kind of work?? i don't know
@@nicoleflores2054 I ship it
@@AdorableFloof1999 then you'll definitely love the AU's and fanarts out there of those two
andddd now I hate you both
@@gumbo34 lol
To be fair Mega mind DESTROYED this trope and told the honest truth about the "nice guy" "everyman"
it was more of a proto-incel thing but alright
The movie was ahead of its time for sure
damn bro just let ugly guys be ugly guys :(
@@j0hnicide Hal was way too different than the example you're giving, the moment he got powers, the moment his true colors come to light.
Not only that, but Megamind also did the enemies to lovers trope perfectly and they did not make it toxic or problematic.
I've found that you need two things to make a complex character:
1. Who they are
2. Why they are who they are
Example:
Dracula is an overprotective father BECAUSE monsters and he himself have been ostracized and demonized by humans for centuries.
Johnny is a goofball BECAUSE the plot needs him to be a goofball
*Johny is a goofball BECAUSE there are no other character traits we can recover from this
You can be the every man but you need some qualities that make you stand out or you need to do things that make you a great choice in fans eyes for a good girl...if you save people cool..if you help people cool...don't be the bland useless everyman that has no traits worth marrying...
That’s actually very solid advice
Exactly
But are there any reasons for a person to be a goofball really? It's like a personality trait, something you are born with. Dracula's overprotectiveness is a behaviour trait.
Jonny was the best in the first Hotel. They really olaf'd him in the sequels by overcharacterizing his troupe. The scene with him in the closet explaining his past roommate will never fail to get a good laugh out of me.
“Olaf’d” 😂😂😂
I agree. In the first one, his naivety is genuinely funny and somewhat endearing. And at the end when Drac forced Johnny to leave, we as the audience WANT him to be allowed back in the hotel.
Then in the sequels he turns into the most generic, "stupid dad" type character ever written.
The trope I hate is "dance sequences because kids think dancing is funny" These movies are huge offenders, like "Oh watch the old people dance to hip musics" like please stop.
And the excessive singing too.
It's so cringe tbh
Unpopular opinion but I genuinely love the old people dancing to modern music trope. Still think it's pretty funny, but that's just me
the only exception that does this trope right is Shrek, change my mind.
@@IATEALLTHECHEESE maybe cz you're "CHEESY"
(I'm sorry, I could resist was referring to your username 😂)
@@youjustgotburned3980 lmaoo you're not wrong
anyone else felt super let down when in the second movie , the baby turned out to be a vampire after all? they got so close to the whole idea of just accepting their grandchild the way he is and then threw the idea away
THIS! I see no one talking about it! The entire theme was acceptance, and then they made him what everyone wanted again.
YES. OMG. Especially because they were using "human" as a clear metaphor for "gay" or "soft"
i had the same thought. Thank u. That movie was so close to having a good message and then it threw it away because "climax"
@@Ariel_is_a_dreamer i really dont think that was the case..
@@Ariel_is_a_dreamer wtf
In my opinion, Johnny was tolerable in the first film. AND ONLY THE FIRST FILM. They were teens. Young love, and Mavis didn’t have any clue about the world outside of the hotel so I can understand the direction the first film was going. After that, when Sony made more movies, I find it baffling that they were still together, and had a kid. Johnny hasn’t changed even the slightest bit. He had no character growth. It pisses me off. I can’t believe Mavis would even consider staying and raising a child with that fool. Divorce him.
That's why I hate it now.
Johnny was a full adult tho lmao
Heavy on them having a kid😂 like??? The kid cute tho
I think Jhonny still was a good dad behind the scenes, he just became comic relief for most of the screentime after the first movie, he also wasn't fully aware of how far drac would go to convert his son and still owed him a lot, yeah I don't think his character is the issue, he has potential (good at playing instruments, has a lot of experience from his travels and knows how to drive properly), it's just how he's portrayed.
No, I liked Johnny very much, I wish I had a boyfriend like him xd
The worst thing about johnny is that in the first movie, he actually has depth to his character. He's experienced because he's travelled around the world he has many skills and stories that helps him become popular and interesting with the monster. He's understand the reason for dracula's hate of human and doesn't judge dracula for it. He's compasionate because he willingly reject mavis because of drakula's wish. He's kind because he even managed to get dracula to open up to him and finally human. He has so much potential in the first movie and it's a damn shame he didn't get the chance to actually be developed and instead reduce to a bumbling mediocer idiot
This thought might be a little stupid, but please hear me out:
Watching this trope continuously in childhood projects unhealthy expectations in adult life that might be harmful. Girls are taught that they have to be successful in life, because the standard female Charakter is beautiful, successful, quricky and often very perfect. They are also taught that the typical partner would be a lazy butt and that they should settle for that.
Boys are taught that they get the hot perfect girl by being a lazy butt and wonder later in life why that doesn't happen. They might even project those expectations (see: "I'm a nice guy, why won't she date me?!" ) onto women and create a miserable spiral where expectations are unrealistic.
Nothing but the truth.
Facts
If anyone in real life actually has those expectations, they’re either extremely gullible or have serious mental problems.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 you'd be suprised at how many people are exactly that
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 - [This got kinda long, as a warning if anyone clicks read more]
I mean, given a lot of behavior, coping methods, habits and reference for normality comes from those you grow up around, the media you're exposed to and the environment you're in, I wouldn't call that being gullible more than having a toxic frame of reference that your young worldview is subconsciously influenced by. We're not talking about someone simply deciding this is how the world works because one person said so.
Lots of people have negative biases and beliefs well into adulthood, and merely need time, healthy exposure, a competent social network and the desire to unlearn thought harmful patterns and behaviors that are often so ingrained they manifest without the person even noticing. For a lot of people, negative beliefs and behaviors aren't solely for lack of awareness, but because their brain has literally been brought up on experiences that don't always reflect healthy or common life practices. Those sort of things aren't the kind of things you snap out of because you're not gullible, and toxic ideologies pushed to youth on a mass scale shouldn't be handwaved when later resurfacing in the same youth as them having "serious mental problems." That's like snapping branches when you need to cut the tree, and at the same time degrading lots of capable people when the actual fault is more on the generation before them who raise them up on this thinking.
Imagine if Johnny was replaced with a Simon Belmont type dude who came to the hotel to kill Dracula, that would be kinda cool seeing him and Dracula start off trying to kill eachother, then try to tolerate eachother for mavis’ sake
So, Johnny but Ericka?
Like Dracula asking for him just to wait till after her birthday to start trying to kill on anothe.
I wish Jhonny had a cooler appearance/personality like Danny Phantom when he wasn't in his phantom form... He would've been so much more of an attractive character and desirable person/connection with Mavis
Actually the original concept was where Johnny was actually Van Helsing.
@@nikkinorman4254 except dennisovich is absolutely adorable and wouldn't want him looking any other way.
I have to disagree about having everyman trope un Atlantis. Milo is far from being an everyman.
He is super cultured, clever and driven. He has hobbies dreams and a strong personnality. He is not only here to make unconfident straight males feel better about their chances to get a bombshell of a girl.
He is here to fulfill his dream. Saving Kida becomes a new goal as he fell in love during the movie.
Agreed 100%
Exactly. Milo is definitely not an everyman, he’s an accomplished linguist who struggles with social interaction but comes into his own as he explores an entirely different culture from his own in the movie. The best part is that at the end of Atlantis, him and Kida don’t kiss, but they instead hug. Their relationship is still obviously hinted at being romantic, but Milo is an excellent diversion from what could’ve been an everyman.
Agreed. The biggest difference for me being that Johnny accidentally ended up at the Hotel. Milo was furiously searching for Atlantis after constant set backs and being told he was a fool, wanting to fufil his life long dream. What sets them apart is having a personality and then seeing that personality further develop through a romantic relationship (not having no personality and the relationship being the entire plot). Also, not sure what average viewer was projecting onto Milo. He literally kickstared an expedition for a new discovery and was a super genius and later tactician.
Basically, there is a difference between a character having relatable traits and being an everyman.
Idk I just don't like Johnny and want him out of the movie and replace with someone better
agree with everything but the comparison with the disney Atlantis movie, cuz that guy wasn't an "everyman", not only he was actually hot, wasn't he brought along cuz he knew stuff and he was like super smart or something, I may be wrong here but I remember something along those lines, like, he had a purpose and a talent
Milo was a linguistic genius, his entire thing was that he can actually read the language that noone else could, and he was a nerd with a wide arrange of knowledge and topics. He's not the everyday man.
@@insertname3977 exactly!
@@Nick-nb2oz That being said, neither is Johnny in this case, especially when the "everyman" trope is suppose to be characters like Homer Simpson or the Hobbits from LOTR.
The everyman is suppose to be a person who doesn't want to do anything outside of their safe bubbles even if the plot usually requires them to do so, and aren't considered special in any meaningful way (the Hobbits were only considered as special as they were because of how "normal" they are). Nor do they have any special skill or drive to do things that normal people wouldn't unless pushed into such a situation.
Johnny is shown to be a rather oddball of a person who isn't really like the majority of people from both his universe (remember how his mother was only able to find one other couple between human and monster?) and the selected audience (children, and your typical 9 to 5 working adult). He's more of the "free spirit" archetype of character who are attributed as being laid back, easy going, and typically of a surfer dude/stoner mannerisms.
America has this weird obsession with praising mediocrity and it permeates into every facet of our society. I'm sick of it in movies and I'm sick of the "capable, strong, and nuturing" female lead having to deal with the ridiculous antics of the man-child that she is more like a mother to than a wife. The trope is gross and especially has no business in media aimed at children or teens.
Good comment.
I agree, and it sorta makes children believe that dads don’t have to do their part as fathers, aswell as husbands
@Prey R What's wrong with single moms?
It's funny people try to say that trope hates men when it's the opposite, it basically rewards their bad behavior
@Prey R when you look at denmark there isnt a big difference between single parent child and two parent child.
Meaning
Its america that fucked somwthing up.
I think Johnny is the poster boy for why having “relatable” be the start and end of their personality is a bad thing. because if you can’t relate to them (which I don’t) then there’s literally nothing to like about them. you can have a character be relatable, but you have to give them a personality or a hobby or something to grab onto. and this is a love story, so having a likable lead is kind of important in this genre lmao
Wasn't him being a horror nerd and being educated in the local stories and rumors a big thing in the first movie?
@@derpfluidvariant0916 God I wish they continued with that Johnny. Who knows, maybe they could've shown a scene with him and Van Helsing bonding over mythical creature legends and all that good stuff
@@derpfluidvariant0916 Totally. If you re watch the first movie and compare with the boat cruise one (I don’t even know how many fucking movies there at this point) he is so much knowledgeable in the first. I can actually stand to watch him; he’s just this monster believer dude who likes to adventure. But in the other movies, they like made him denser and it’s so annoying to watch.
I feel like the guy in the video stating he was the “relatable” guy couldn’t find the right term because it’s obvious they were going for this like stoner teen surf / skateboarding type of guy ya know and it’s not really that relatable with the teen to kid audiences nor the adults who probably mostly have a opinion on the film because children really don’t care and teens eh maybe a few of em but yeah
Agreed! Also, love your screen name!
"Aladdin isnt meant to be an everyman because he's meant to be poor" Dunno, that's pretty relatable to me
Yyyyyeah, plus where the movie takes place pretty much everyone is dirt poor soooo it is the Everyman and his only talent is singing and finding a magical lamp
Indeed
@@summonersriftgarbage4426 Yeah but Aladdin, unlike this guy, actually tries VERY HARD to win Jasmine’s heart and like…saves the kingdom from Jaffar.
Exactly!
@summonersriftgarbage4426 Aladdin has, on multiple occasions, been depicted as cunning and proactive, like how he fooled genie for a free wish, saved jasmine from getting her arm chopped off by pretending she's his crazy relative and fooled Jafar into turning into a genie to exploit the lamp weakness, Aladdin is supposed to be a quick witted underdog.
Facts. Honestly, with Atlantis, Milo is a catch just from his smarts, determination, bravery, love for exploration. He def has it going on for himself.
The everyman trope is like the male equivalent of the Mary Sue, with a difference:
The Mary Sue it's mostly written by insecure girls that wants to be good at everthing to be loved and have everyone's attention.
The Everyman is written by grown men who wants to be loved and have everyone's attention doing...literaly nothing.
The Everyman trope is represented by Homer Simpson and the Hobbits from LOTR. None of this video was even correct and was just one massive wankfest of an incel shitting on a "free spirit" character who happens to be the romantic interest of said incel's animated waifu.
It's always fucked me up. I remember always told being with my chin high and act mature for foolish bullies. Every single anime is practically an OP everyman or Everyman Harem. Their cast of unique Female cast turned into humble housewives once a choice is made. Boys are allowed to get away with so much and taught its their entitlement. But bring up and it becomes a strawman discourse of EXTREMIST SJW/FEMMIST/LEFTIST and in its like Korean love stories have protagnist treated like actual object/shit towards and ML who are objectively entitled/Stoic/Powerful and its about melting their heart while the female is written to be like a middle schooler's mentality toward love/sex/romance. Girls are told to be everything and when they write their characters as everything they get the criticism society told them specifically to be. Everyman trope is a proganda for males to continue the male narrative that has always existed.
The worse part is dynamics. FL in high power? Make her humbled and allowed vulenbarity make her subdued. FL in low power? Put her in an extremely awkward situation which spirals of ultimantions and when she makes a choice her choices are disregarded or made into the villain(or just written as a fucking dumbass)-
ML in high power? Object of affection must be won, doesn't matter he's awful, doesn't matter he disregard you, doesn't even matter if all his intentions are awful *wobbfied voice* he changed SLIGHTLY for you! He has heart now. But now can't talk to another man ever and privacy for you isn't an option.
Everyman? I don't need personality, just generic stuff and allow you lore dump. I can be a preverted but I'm kind so its okay or its funny, so don't make a big deal about it. I'm probably going to be Overpowered or have an extreme important niche despite being an everyman.
ML in underdog situation/poor? Plot armor for practically everything. Any wrongdoing I did was excusable and I can do it but not you. You should be sympathetic towards me because I suffered. Oh you suffered too? Well, we superficially connect on it, I use it against you and its potrayed in a good way, or I never acknowledge it anyway. (I can never get over P5 after saving the OG trio and then telling the blonde she has to get naked or something and the blond friend wants to see it despite that fact Blonde was being stalked/Harrassed the mission prior and there'd been empathises on that, like it fucked up. It's fucking disgusting)
Ah Everyman and Mary Sues tropes are just born out of incredible amount of self desire made because we live in this fuck up gendered systematic structure that almost never helped anybody ever.
@@kyaksachan502 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Nah. The Mary Sue can still be worse than that. Just look at twilight.
@@kyaksachan502 Have you watched Western movies and series recently? Were living the era of Mary Sues and Stupid Man.
I'll be honest, Mavis treats Johnny as more of a pet than a husband.
Because he doesn't act like a husband - he still behaves like an irresponsible teen. How is she supposed to treat him like an adult when (mentally) he isn't one.
@@kuroservamp9673 Peter Griffin in a nutshell. Except Johnny isn’t a dick like Peter.
So Mavis is Omni-Man.
@@kuroservamp9673 yeah. girl deserves better
If that was the case I wish I was johnny
I hate johnny with a passion. What drives me even more insane is that they keep pairing these hundreds of year old creatures with dumb human beings. This would have been awesome to explore monsters who didn't live in the hotel. Mavis discovery the world and having an actual relationship with someone other than a man child.
Also he’s going to die and leave Mavis alone with their kid
@@Tadpole_Plyrr2 welp at least she'll get the better man she deserves but,
The series is done now so i couldn't expect much anyways
@@ceddricc5909 What better man? Who's into single mother vampires?
@@EmptyMan000 New potential character who will *ZING* with Mavis. Just like Ericka choosing a vampire single father?
@@EmptyMan000 Have you seen Mavis? Regardless of her being a vampire or single or a mother someone will want her! She's not only attractive design wise but also in regards to personality! She's an all around likeable character. I'm quite sure the chances of her finding someone aren't as low as you'd believe.
Hotel Trannsylvania 2 should’ve been about Mavis and Johnny traveling the world and learning more about each other tbh. Have them struggle because the other doesn’t fit the idealized version that they built up in their head. Could’ve been great tbh.
This. Sequels are noxious garbage.
Wait, how is Atlantis the Lost Empire an everyman story? Milo has a dozen phds, can speak ten different languages, can decipher totally alien languages if he's familiar with its entomology, and can read millennia old maps. He's the awkward super genius trope.
Plus he is somewhat fit.
And he’s handsome. He’s just made to showcase a narrow/small framed man, I always thought he reminded me of Jeremy Irons, Sting, Chris Botti, Hugh Grant or Hugh Dancy. He’s pretty and skinny, which makes his expression geeky. He’s not a white savior either. He’s an instrument to Kida, providing light and guidance that she desperately needed. The man literally saves her life, gives her newfound purpose and helps her people. He’s no Everyman the guy’s extraordinary. I love how everyone defends him too.
I'm inadequate as fuck compared to Milo. Best I have is an Associate Degree and 3 1/2 languages.
And idk if he gets “fixed” or improved by the love interest. I don’t really remember but I don’t think that was their dynamic
@@Akaritomi i mean that's still a lot
The only everyman I really like is Emmet from Lego Movie, because they play into the fact he's the everyman. They stick a regular guy next to Master Builders. But the Everyman Trope worked with The Lego Movie because a big theme in Lego Movie was that anyone can be special. You don't have to have special powers or even be part of some prophecy (as we find out Vitruvius made up the prophecy) to do great things and be important. Also, Emmet is fun, even while being an everyman. And the reason he gets with Lucy/Wyldestyle is because they _do_ have chemistry.
Ugh, i love the lego movies so damn much.
I felt like Johnny and Mavis would’ve worked if the 2nd film helped change Johnnys personality. It would’ve been kinda funny to see Johnny turn into a more mature father figure for his son, and actually get mad at Drac for trying to force Dennis to be a vampire. I mean Drac not fully excepting Johnny has been a plot point in all of them major or minor. The Second film could’ve actually had Mavis and Johnny wanting to move away since Drac couldn’t except Johnny’s humanity and the possibility of Dennis being a human too.
Another thing they could have used is the fact that Mavis is a vampire and ages/matures more slowly than humans. It could have been a conflict point where Johnny is more mature than her...sorta a reversal of roles.
@@jc1979af Exactly! Mavis is over a hundred years old and still has a teenage mindset, yet suddenly she matures at a normal rate? Johnny getting more disciplined and responsible while Mavis is still much like when they first met could have been a great conflict for them to overcome, and a great message about long-term love.
Also, why couldn't one of the movies have been a midquel about when they were still just dating?
I think the movie would've been better if they didn't include the romantic subplot and Johnny could still exist, but they become friends and Mavis tries to convince her dad to let her travel with him for the movie. Tbh Drac Hardcore believed in the Zing, so it would make more sense to his character to rally that much against it if he wasn't even a zing. Mavis gets to travel in the end and Johnny is just her travel companion. If it develops, it develops, but it would have a better pace for the romantic subplot than the movie. Or a pace at all other than "oop, instant love."
Imagine how good it would have been if Mavis and Johnny just became platonic best friends instead
That sounds waaay better tbh
Them as friends sound way better oh my God
That would also mean No Dennis.
@@JulesHinmon i can live with that
Wouldn't exactly change much besides giving Dracula something different to be nervous over.
Milo is not an Every Man. He's a linguist/cartography expert, dangit!
yeah, he's just socially awkward; he still has more of a backbone and character than johnny.
Plus he’s actually popular with the female audience/gaze
@@hodzal5258 A mature, sympathetic, cute man that is smart and knowledgeable in a lot of fields (including common ones)? Hell yes, that is a 10 points man, even Helga mentions un the movie how surprising is that he is single
Who is Milo?
@@RandomSwiftie13 I think they're talking about Milo Thatch
The problem really is how he didn't evolved.
Like holy shit, they could had made him evolved
He actually seemed like he was a lot denser in the third movie compared to the first. Like his character degraded instead of grew.
Yes, he could have evolved into an entertaining, more mature "Jimmy Stewart" type of Everyman - who finds himself in bizarre situations because of his wife, son and extended family. Any change to his "rinse/repeat" interactions with Dracula would have made for much better sequels.
That's my problem with johnny. I didn't mind the couple but I do understand the dislike when you see that johnny doesn't change or have any type of character development. Even parenthood didn't change him.
True. He didn’t even do anything in the second movie, and his only contribution to the third was DJing. He’s 8 years older, almost 30 and has a kid in Part 2; you’d think he’d be a little more mature, wiser, or just DIFFERENT in some capacity.
Guess the writers didn't even know what to do with Johnny so they just made him a comic relief and whatnot, which sucks since i believe Johnny could've had an arc or so where he would grow and have actual character development if the writers could've tried.
The scream cheese was the most memorable character for me. I forget this entire movie series but the scream cheese has stayed with me for years. Its so cute
what always pissed me off is how both Marvis and Johnny stay the same in sequels. They are married adults for crying out loud. You can make some point for Marvis because she's a vampire but it would be nice if they looked slightly more mature as the story moved on (yes, young married couples don't suddenly change overnight I know but the time still pases)
Because no one wants to see them up to their elbows in diapers and with all the signs of sleep deprivaiton
@@DaDunge But think of the comedy!
Yea they act immature for parents and still dress like teenagers
Well, I'm 28 and look still the same as I did two years ago
... right?
fr mavis looks like a teenager
I firmly believe that media that promotes this kind of trope is a massive part in why incel culture exists. Boys grow up watching average men being fawned over by women and this teaches them to expect women to fall for them and treat them like they're the world. They come to feel that just by existing, they are entitled to this treatment, but once they are faced with real life women and not the characters they grew up watching and their expectations aren't fulfilled, they become bitter and hateful. This cycle is so toxic to everyone involved and it has always weirded me out how shows and movies feed into it
And outside the media girls are told all time that they deserve 8-10 rate guys regardless their own rating.
@@Hektols are you talking about numerical looks ratings ? because that's ridiculous and no one meant that to begin with
@@Envy_May It happens, lots modern women have ridiculous high standards while they don't offer anything worth mentioning to the relationship besides their looks.
@@Hektols then why does it matter ? shallow people aren't worth the time anyway
Legit, in every movie about a girl, she has to change her entire appearance and everything about herself to get the guy in the end. Every movie about a guy he doesn't have to change anything, if the girl still rejects him by the end she's painted as "oh she's just shallow, she shouldn't be judging you for your looks"! (Even though he spends the whole movie pining after a girl...because of her looks)
Yeah there has been a huge change in Johnny’s personality since the first film. Unpopular opinion, but I was ok with Johnny’s character in the first film, saw nothing wrong with it. But as soon as hotel Transylvania 2 came out it all started to go down hill. He completely lost his previous personality as the fun free spirited guy, and gained the personality of just… stupid, and even more annoying. At least he could be a LITTLE more serious in the first film, but now whenever he shows negative emotions it’s really hard to buy. He seems less of a person, less human.
I will agree, even in the first film he had some redeemable characteristics and even hinted some critical thinking behind those bland eyes. It was nice to see him in some more serious scenes as well in the first movie without being the comic relief. I really do not understand why they did not keep this side of his character while also making him fun for the viewers in the rest of the movies.
Agreed
I'm so glad someone else sees this because I think the same about the character
Same, at the first movie I liked him, he was not super cool but I liked his personality and goofy way, but in the sequels he went down hills at a point he agreed to distract and lie to Mavis about what his own son and Dracula doing! He should be the first one to disagree completely with the idea of Dracula and supporting to love his son no matter what he is.
Honestly I have certain doubts about if was right they stay in Transilvania, i would like to see how Mavis could adapt and live in John's scenario. Since she likes that much travel I would like to see how would be if she's not only on the hotel.
@@puripurimimi2803 To be fair, the only interesting part of Johnny in HT 2 is how clearly he hated his life at home, that's the reason he was away so often. It's clear he didn't stand his conformist family and he was unhappy living there, and I think he honestly thought Dannis would be unhappy there too. Too bad they didn't explore that side of the story.
Johnny could’ve just been a himbo. That would’ve worked.
That would literally patch up so many blring plot holes
If he'd had a sixpack then nobody would be complaining lmao, least of all the female audience.
You know I can’t remember if this is true or what, but I remember once hearing about how Johnny was originally going to be a vampire Hunter coming to the hotel and then falling in love with Mavis. Is it the most original idea in the world? No, but it’s more interesting as it makes what Drac is so worried about a bit true and does gives that change of world view type of development(which while the third movie was basically just a summer movie done for money, I did like the chemistry between Drac and Ericka which is this idea explored kinda). Either way thank goodness there’s always better couples with better chemistry in other shows/movies.
It's true! Johnny was originally going to be a Van Helsing named Simon. From what I've read, him and Mavis where gonna have a sort of Romeo and Juliet conflict with the two trying to get their families to see eye to eye or something along the lines of trying to make their relationship work
I would have taken that over this Johnny! Hell, why not take it a step further and say his family is from a long line of monster hunters, who believed that monsters no longer existed, while still having the knowledge of monsters.
Hell! I don't care if he was an amateur vampire hunter who was terrible at hunting monsters and just stumbled into success and somehow managed to make it work
This honestly would've been way more interesting
@@blackheartthedarklord6428 that whould be so much better than what they did with Johnny characters in the movie they should have had Johnny be a antagonist towards Mavis by trying to hunter her to make his family happy then give him a redemption arc where he falls in love with Mavis that whould make this character more interesting instead of making me a man child who really annyoing and dumb
The "EveryMan" trope can't function without the "Born Sexy Yesterday" trope, of gals like Mavis who only like him because she doesn't know better
Tossing in a little of that “immortal so she can look like a child forever” trope that anime loves so much
Literally Stranger Things El and Mike. El falls into the 'born sexy yesterday' trope almost perfectly (with a few variations because she is still a child and so 'sexy' isn't a term I would use to describe her ever.) Mike is the first real person to show her kindness. She basically does everything he tells her to do, except when Max comes in to tell her what to do. Season 4 doesn't fair much better with El basing her entire personality on anything Mike does. Mike isn't in love with her, she'll make him in love with her and run away to become a superhero. It's really kinda dumb. I really don't think the Duffer brothers know how to write female characters very well.
Well said pal
@@yamyam493 oh my god yes, I hated the 4th season so much. I basically skipped through the last few episodes just to see how it ends. It was so fucked how they gaybaited the audience making them think the thing Will drew would be romantic, and it's actually Mike and El's plot device for a romantic subplot development, whereas Will only got a silent cry in anguish.
I hated it in the Chucky tv series too, where the love interest had zero personality and was simply the gay poc token who could've been substituted with anyone else of the same description and nothing would've changed. Same "born sexy yesterday" thing where the main character is brave, charming, funny, complicated, passionate about something dear to their heart and their love interest is literally the only random gay person without personality or anything visual that makes them memorable or unique in any way just to be the damsel in distress because HE was obsessed with the main character and wove his way into his life.
Same with the Loki series where even though Loki is a staple Tumblr hot guy, he bonded with his female counterpart over being unlucky in love. A guy who has lived for some thousand years falls in love for the first time with the first relatable person in his proximity who shows interest in him.
At least Harley and The Joker had some sort of exciting dynamic. What does it say about media if the number 1 shipped movie couple is the most dysfunctional relationship goal you can think of?
So your first girl didnt know better?
I really don't get what Mavis sees in him, he doesn't act his age and is an actual idiot who can't take care of his child. He never evolved as a character, nor did he get any development; he just stayed the dumbass he is throughout the entire franchise, till the VERY END. To be honest, Mavis carries the entire relationship yet gets sidelined as just ''Johnny's wife'' when she's 100 percent more interesting than Johnny could ever be, she pops in when she needs to, then gets written out for the next 30 minutes until she's needed again. His whole arc was just Drac accepting him as human but that happens EVERY MOVIE, Drac accepts him at the end of each movie then in the next movie they just redo that arc over and over again? I guess the writers just forgot... Or worse they are stretching out a dying franchise that dies more with each movie, they should've just ended the franchise at the 2nd movie since everything came to a conclusion at the end of it.
Re: Mavis...gets sidelined as just "Johnny's wife"
It's so weird that the first movie followed Drac and Mavis more as the main characters and then it shifted to Mavis and Johnny in the second and then Drac in the third, and I think Drac and Johnny for the fourth. Mavis always felt like the main character to me in the first movie so it was weird they made that shift.
What makes it worse is that the movies act like he's in the right all the time and he doesn't need to learn anything from anything and save all the "what you did is wrong and here's why" for Drac. And don't get me wrong, I don't like Drac in these movies. They treat him like he's just a loving, over protective dad when in reality he's possessive and refuses to treat his child like the grown adult with her own life she is. But Jonny can be just as obnoxious, and I really wish they would call him out for it as much as they do Drac but they just don't.
Pretty sure that the Drac accepting Johnny was only for the first movie. After that Drac just needs to accept that his life is changing....and then the last movie came along and decided to revisit the first for some reason. When you think about it the movies are all about Drac.
Movie 1- Drac(main focus), Johnny and Mavis (secondary focus)
Movie 2- Drac (main focus), Dennis (secondary focus), Mavis and Johnny (minor focus)
Movie 3- Drac (main focus), Mavis, Johnny and Dennis ( minor focus)
Movie 4- ya probably get the point
Mavis and Johnny are a pretty much a package deal when it comes to these movies, with Mavis mainly being more important and Johnny just being there
To be fair though guys, I don't know why you all are complaining that this is just a rehashed message from the very first film. It's actually not , The first one was about Drac letting his daughter grow up and make her own decisions and Johnny just happened to be one of those decisions. The 4th film was more of Drac accepting that even though Johnny is a human he still is capable of handling big responsibilities. (Aka the hotel.)
@@parycartoons6840 exactly. Just saw the 4tg movie and he's an idiot. Which would be okay if he got called out for it and tried to learn but, nooooo.
Nah man the biggest problems with these movies is that Dracula learns the same lesson...IN EVERY SINGLE FILM...
I agree with everything except for Milo being an Everyman. Dude is 100% nerd. He has distinct physical properties as well as a distinct personality. White Savior, sure, but Everyman? Nope.
Every nerd? A lot of people think of themselves as nerds now odays
A lot of people are nerds nowadays. And even if they aren't full on nerds, they do at least have one or some nerdy interests which can make them come off as incredibly nerdy.
@@trla6505 he is more of a professional nerd tho, his life and work has been dedicated to his passion, and thats how he managed to form a bond with Kira and her culture
@@zkme2734 he Is a scholar and a nerd, profesionals can have passion and social skills, also anyone who likes to ravel and visits new places could have connected with kiras culture
Hmmm. Nerd = everyman, and it has been that way since the 80s at least.
It's a shame they kept Johnny as an immature man-child who never grew. In the first film, he really served the function of helping others around him grow and change, but the writers withheld that gift from him 😔
Edit: As for the sunrise scene, it could have been Mavis watching the sunrise as per her usual habit and sharing that with Johnny. A sweet moment in which she shares what she loves with him, he falls for the dreamer quality she has, and she feels safe sharing her secrets and desires with him.
Its always been disgusting to me when a story has a female character fall in love with the first guy she meets after being sheltered her entire life. Its essentially giving the message that naivety can and should be taken advantage of. She falls in love with him, simply because she has nothing else to compare him to. Her standards are ridiculously low, so anything will work. The male love interest could be abusive or manipulative, but because he was the "first guy to watch a sunset with her," hes special. And its only becoming more of an issue in modern media, because no one seems to understand how relationships work. In reality, the cute shut-in girl feels aimless and empty inside because she gave herself up to someone who never earned it. Mavis only stays married to Johnny because she never meets anyone else. She could've met a more passionate and sensible man just by walking down the street
Imagine if she met a total different guy than Johnny I'm sure she'd get zing too
@@tothebeyond6318 for some reason i wanna imagine mavis falling for an artist
Frozen at least did it better, they made Anna finish with the "everyday man" but only because she learned to know him, while she could have finished with the first dude she meet and Disney did a good job for showing "be careful with the first man you meet"
I CAN understand your point but it's dumb to say that you understand relationships when you think ppl choose partners in a comparative way.
I'm not the most intelligent, handsome or cute guy in the world but my gf still loves me.
Seriously what a bad take
@@jostnaleman3738 I think you've misunderstood their point. they're saying that mavis has no frame of reference for what a relationship is.
I took bigger issue with the whole "zing" thing. I believe it is the most toxic concept in the modern dating world. We stick in abusive relationships, choose to marry less than ideal partners, and have our hearts absolutely broken because we believe the love at first sight idea. Instead of wisely choosing a partner, we choose based on a feeling. My husband and I have a saying. "Love is a choice you make everyday. You don't fall out of love and you don't choose someone to marry based on being in love with them. It has worked very well for us."
The thing is though, that "zinging" is something supernatural and obviously mutual. In practice, when two "zing," they will treat each other well. (It's true love and they are basically soul mates)I find this concept of true love in this context to be quite nice. If romantic relationships among monsters were to unfold as they do in humans, then Mavis would have had 20 husbands by the end of her life. Apparently, not only monsters "zing," but also humans with monsters. This is important to avoid creating a toxic imbalance. In the end, "zinging" is something different from love at first sight in humans. Like they said in the movies. "It's a monster thing"
Femenism really killed romance, thanks
yea that zing thing sucks. I get that they tried to make it seem like a cute soulmate thing, but it teaches harmful lessons to children.
@@catscanhavelittleasalami Not really.
@@catscanhavelittleasalami love at first sight is as old a tale as anything. The main thing to take away from the zing concept is that it suggests that somewhere out there is someone perfect for u. U may not believe that but i do and i don’t think thats harmful to children at all. What is harmful is so many young people reporting feeling high levels of persistent loneliness that accompanies the belief they will never find their said zing. I also think that reducing love to mere chemicals in the brain and encouraging people to reject traditional values such as marriage and encourage selling themselves is a messed up lesson for kids but most cartoons nowadays push that notion, but hey that feminism. Ig im old school
The opinion you hold that can inject Milo from Atlantis in as an everyman is your boldest assertation here. The man speaks several languages living and dead fluently, is well educated in history (for his reality), held steady employment, and had serious dreams and ambitions that true fall into a Disney princess category but are still unique enough to capture your attention (this is important to mention as all fantasy movies fall victim to this at some point). He holds several helpful life skills that help guide and aid the expedition he goes on. While it's true the cast look down on him for being a book worm this in itself is probably the most manufactured part of the movie. As even the expedition leader Rourke knew when to stop giving Milo a hard time and get the kid to use his skills as they were needed. The implication you could replace Milo with Johnny from this series is laughable at best. This is my only real critic. Sure, you could attempt to say Milo and johnny have the same type of ability to serve the plot as needed but it's so much weaker with Milo as he actually served the story with previously mentioned abilities giving his character a unique and singular point of potential as he was part of a larger team. Everything after they reach Atlantis is no longer about Milo proving he was right but how right he was to discern the technology he read about which he mentions in his practice speech in the first 5 minutes of the movie. Your main complaint with Johnny is he serves every point despite his previously mentioned lack of abilities. Making him into a pseudo-Gary sue, however Milo doesn't even come close to the level of Gary sue as this Johnny does. Other than this good video.
Edit: Dang so this is internet Karma.
He thinks every average male is an "everyman" trope. Johnny in this movie was electric, and he gets along with everyone. His energy alone changed the whole mood of Hotel Transylvania with fun stuffs. And that's how Mavis fell in love with him not because of some every man trope. Also the fact that he showed her the sunrise for the first time in her life
@@wonderbatenthusiast1665 finally someone with common sense!
Agree, Milo was an exceptional guy, an expert in his own fields, not an everyman. If they inverted the genders making Kida a guy and Milo a girl fem Milo would have been considered one of Disney's best female characters.
That was also my only issue, I love Atlantis and Milo’s character and while he is a bit of a Gary Stu he at least stands out from the “everyman”. I’m a girl but I’m also a nerd so seeing someone else who was picked on for being a nerd find the love interest is great.
Yeah i think that one is the opposite, Milo is the intresting character (though he's a total Daniel Jacksson rippoff) and the princess who's name I can't even remember is essentially the price. That said hardly suprising since the entire movie is a ripoff of Laputa.
You're fucking spot on man. I'll be honest, I've started seeing this everywhere. Cool, quirky, fleshed out good character female lead falls for that random guy who, and I can't stress this enough, has 11/10 qualities of a reddit mod.
I stand by this even now
@@armedwithwings6668 Which is funny because this guy is nothing more than an incel themselves.
This is what bugs me about the premise of the fourth movie. Dracula had every reason to be hesitant about giving the hotel to Johnny because he’s a screw up, but they decided to treat it like he still had human issues, which he’s overcome repeatedly throughout the franchise. Then instead of having Johnny go through some actual development, they just put it all on Dracula.
Yeah . . . they did Drac dirty ngl. If I were him, I wouldn't want to give Johnny the hotel either. Not because of his species, but because he'd burn it to the ground within five minutes.
RIght? Like he literally is married to a human in the fourth movie- i think he's pretty over the whole 'humans are awful' view
I gotta say, what’s wrong with him not wanting to give his family business (how he wanted it to go anyways) to his blood daughter, who was actively studying and working to take over the hotel?
The human thing is very crucial here, given he will die long before his son e v e r reaches full maturity. He’s going to just be a blip on his wife’s lifespan, what’s going to happen if Johnny flips out on his wife one day from a mid life crisis and decides it’s okay to divorce his wife and take the hotel in the divorce?
Plus, after the original Hotel Transylvania, all of Johnny’s ideas were Anti-Monster ideas, no matter how much he proclaimed he loved the hotel’s wackiness. (Loudest example I remember is when he called the monster magician’s acts stale just for involving monster physics)
Exactly. It's like in the 4th movie, Dracula goes back to his old ways. And Johnny acts more like a man-child in that movie. Couldn't the writers mature him throughout the franchise? Like, they could've made the 2nd movie of him and Mavis going out on adventures and he would mature more along the way. Then at some point in the 3rd movie (which would be what the 2nd movie is), he would mature even more by the responsibilities as a parent. Then the 4th movie could be about the family going on a vacation and Johnny and Mavis can explore again.
I'd like to point out, I honestly never viewed Mavis as goth, exactly. With how the monster cast is portrayed, it seems each species has it's own customs, cultures, and clothing styles associated with them. Every vampire we see wears black clothes, the women having black lipstick. While there is nothing wrong with calling Mavis goth, I interpret her design as cultural continuity personally.
And even tho she, yeah, is designed to look goth, I dont see how that makes her "better" or "above" Johny
Even if the "every man" trope is over used, there's nothing wrong with it. And Hotel Transilvania is still a wonderful story (the first one at least. The second was ok. The 3rd and 4th are... I will not rewatch them. I hate that Drac got a second Zing. He didnt need that. He could have made mature unbiased friend he could use to rely on when he needed advice about Mavis. Those movies could have become alot more interesting.)
Yeah, alot of girl can be petty. (Keep in mind I'm writing from a girl perspective) They're picky about the guy not having red hair, not being shorter than 6ft or at least not shorter than them, the bf has to spend half his paychecks on her with no financial gifts from her to him. Its stupid, and I think the every man trope is just what we need to normalize not dating the hottest guy and not being insecure about that.
People can have types. And some people are generically hot. That wont change. But no one should base their standards of who they "deserve" based on how someone looks
Mavis never stayed up past sunrise before because she was scared of it. Her father engraved fear of the humans and sun into her for years. No wonder she'd never seen it or been pressured to before!!
And Mavis is more than a 2 dimensional character who likes Johny for no reason. She likes learning new things and he is a fun and relaxed person to rely on in new experiences. He likes showing her things. If anything, she was infantilized through the first and second movies because she had a child-like wonder about it all
Why is Johny criticized for that when she isn't?
She likes he goofy nature, but she doesn't make excuses when he messes up.
When he lied to her about Dennis she was mad at him and Drac
They both messed up, so she made it clear she wasnt okay with it and took the reigns back.
She didn't go "it's okay, Johny didn't know better"
And when it was revealed he was human, she was clearly hurt. She felt betrayed. Especially after Drac made Johny say he hated her. She believed Johny even though it was a lie. She is aware he's capable of mature wrong-doings.
She can accept he's goofy without infantilizing him.
Thank you!! I always thought it was ridiculous that men who acted like children and didn’t care for their appearance could get absolute 10/10 women in media. It always made me question my worth when I was a little girl. “You mean, I could be fit, have a great job, personality, etc, and the best I can get is a man-child?”
Edit: This blew up and I wanted to clear up some things. One is people taking this too personally or attacking me personally. I am NOT saying I am a 10/10 or whatever and therefore I deserve the same, this is a hypothetical. I am calling out this stupid trope and how it shaped my world view as a child. Another, is that this is superficial. You have expectations for your partner, that’s just a reality. Expecting your partner not to be a man-child is not a high expectation. How you interpret “man-child” can vary, I interpret this as Johnny or someone who won’t take responsibility in general. Marry, date, who ever the fuck you want to. You know yourself, if you prefer a slim dude with curly hair, go for it. If you like butch women, go for it. I never said anyones preferences were invalid. Lastly, if I made anyone feel insecure, then maybe this is a sign to work on yourself, man or woman. Drink more water, goodbye.
Literally what I thought too
The amount of superficial judgement in this comment section is unreal.
Also that apparently so many women think that being a quote-on-quote "10/10" (let me tell you a secret, you are most definitely *not* a 10/10) somehow entitles them to getting a perfect man who's buff, good looking, successful and rich while making fun of and insulting anyone they deem a "man-child".
Honestly guys, I thought these types of women only existed in cartoons. It's ridiculous.
@@gazelle_diamond9768 You completely skipped over the "be fit, have a great job, personality" bit. Shows how shallow you are!
@@coldstuff9784 Did you even read the original comment? Those terms referred to the women complaining about this.
@@gazelle_diamond9768 yeah true i also thought why everyone thinks that mavis or "10/10" woman can't come to like a funny/goofy character. It seems they think that only because she's a hot goth girl she has to like a gigachad or something.
anime, manga and light novel takes this trope to the next level. Some of the most egregious ones can be found in the isekai/harem genre
i like reading those (isekais) bc theyre so fucking predictable its funny and they usually have pretty cool powers or abilities that give me inspiration for writing my own stuff.
As someone who’s been watching anime since the late 90s with my first exposure to harems being Tenchi Muyo I never want to see another isekai and/or harem anime ever again.
@@LoveAndSnapple The only parts of Tenchi Muyo that are worth acknowledging are the things that aired before 2000 and I will die on this hill
@@LoveAndSnapple you'll find a few good Isekais. occasionally. very fucking rarely. but they can be good.
Grimgar is one of my favorites. Though you can make the argument that Grimgar is a rare case of an everyman character done right...
I totally get your point though, Isekais and harem animes are a shitty everyman wasteland of garbage.
When you said this was wish fulfillment for manchildren, you were spot-on. It's a serious problem in our culture where people are told they can be shallow, immature, and degenerate and there will be no consequences at all. Mavis' physical design is the only good thing about this movie.
Where men*** are told...
@@LangkeeLongkee what is men***? I don’t have a clue what that is
Absolutely. Most boomers are in this kind of relationship right now and the women will die without ever knowing true love and what an equal relationship is supposed to be, whereas the men will never truly grow up and don't know why they're so bitter all the time.
@@LangkeeLongkee it's actually men that are told they always have to do better,no matter how unrealistic that is.
Women in the modern day are the ones who feel entitled to rich handsome men,then "settle" for a perfectly fine,normal guy,then resent him for it.
Whatever age you guys are living in is over,in the real world women are the ones with gigantic checklists of requirements to be in a relationship with them,while most guys take the first thing that comes their way and they think that she's all they deserve.
@@thelonesurvivor3955 oh no, what a terrible time we live in where women have boundaries and self respect and won't take any thing walking with a third leg between the two. How sad.
Sadly, Jhony was a good match for Mavies in the first movie, they weren't perfect but he was a good option for a first serious relationship.
He knew about culture and history, he loved adventure, he was openminded, he was positive and was able to understand and adapt to wherever they are.
While they really needed more work in the relationship, he was kind of good when it started, and could have been better with proper development, but they destroyed him in the rest of the movies.
The whole point of the "everyman" is to build him into literally anything else.
It's the beginning of a journey, not a destination. The reason why it works is because we enjoy watching ordinary people become extraordinary. The story that comes with that is the fun part.
If you keep your everyman an everyman without explicitly writing for it, it kinda comes off weird or boring.
Like someone said in the comments earlier "Lego movie" did the trope better
would have worked if they actually built him up to something but they kept him the same
Yeah that's it! Johnny doesn't reeally change or grow in any way. I don't root for him, I don't feel satisfied watching him in the franchise at all.
His only purpose was finished in the first movie, and they weren't planning to expand him further.
But did they did that with Johnny?? No. Nothing is “extraordinary” about him
I think one of the biggest problems with this trope, particularly with how it is currently utilized, is that the writers try to make an average guy and end making a below-average guy. Real, everyday people have hobbies and interests and skills. Contemporary writers attempting an everyman often end up aiming for the least common denominator and present someone who is bland, unintelligent, has no interests outside of pop culture, and has few if any distinct personality traits.
EXACTLY!! and this is why this trope sprouts so many incel man babies!!!
Thats the problem, you can't have them gain hobbies and character traits like enjoying a certain food, a certain way of dialect etc. Lest tmyou risk them becoming too much of a character the everyman trope basically has everything that would make them unique stripped away.
@@halinaqi2194 An everyman doesn't have to be a complete blank slate. They can have a personality. They just need to be broadly relatable to a majority of the audience. Dr. Watson is a classic example. He is relatable to the average person as he follows after the brilliant Sherlock Holmes and has many of the same reactions that an average person would have in such situations. But at the same time he is an intelligent man, a doctor, a war veteran, a skilled marksman, a writer. He's an everyman that allows the audience to insert themselves next to the genius detective, but he still has a character of his own.
You literally end up describing average people because those are also interests of average people.
@@CalliopePony They fr missed with Johnny. He DID have a hobby. Travelling. Learning about cultures and their stories and histories (know this bc he tells Drac the legend) but they do nothing with it
The only Every-man I’ve REALLY liked so far is Brett from inside job. Cause he still feels like an individual and has interesting relationships with the rest of the main cast despite being the most normal one out of them all.
Brett also has some personal issues caused by his abandonment by his family, which he finds in his coworkers as their relationships get stronger.
The everyman trope isn't bad on its own. It's how it's executed
Aren't every-mans supposed to be kind of average? Johnny seems a little below average, at least in intelligence. Especially by the third movie. haven't seen the forth.
Brett stands out to me because he's a rare example of a morally good yes-man frat boy. His first episode is about taking this rather mundane, usually antagonistic trope and adding depth and the ability to coexist and cooperate with it. Yes, he has traits of trying to be the perfectly average everyman that everybody likes. He slots in nicely as the target of exposition. But he stands out in the setting, and isn't necessarily supposed to be someone the audience sees themselves as, especially at first.
Plus, Brett is not a love interest! He's just a good friend to Raegan. Female&male friendship is honestly a very underrated relationship dynamic in media
@@nessie968 At least so far. I have the underlying feeling they are gonna pull a sneaky on us and have the two get together, but knowing the show, they would most likely take time to develop their relationship properly.
That said, I wouldn't mind the two staying friends, in fact, I actually prefer that
The thing is I can understand why she fell for Johnny in the first movie. He was more than just the every goofy man. He was interested in the world and very social with a friendly demeanor. Hell we literally see him use his knowledge of the world that he not only likes to see but learn about when drac showed his wife to him. Johnny wasn’t a dumb weirdo, he was smart and extroverted but it was so heavily underutilized. They focused more on his quirks than his pretty great traits, in the second movie it could have been about Johnny taking mavis to see the world and showing off his knowledge maybe make it him trying to juggle his tendencies to not be able to stay in one place for long and give attention to mavis on the trip. It could’ve been a great way to show how smart about the world Johnny actually is, they kept him as a doofus instead of the great parts of him we saw in the first movie. It annoyed the hell out of me.
Really this video should be about how the sequels are just direct-to-video quality and "flanderize" the characters.
The trope feels very "Happy Madison" if that makes sense, especially since they were involved with some of the Hotel films.
We have this sexy or high profile or successful woman who _just can't seem to resist the undying, infectious, and (overly) supported charm of this wacky, goofy man(child)_ who as far as we know is an utter loser.
Damn Anthony, u right 💀🙏🏽
💀
Makes sense since most of the Happy Madison gang is in the movies. Adam sandler, david spade, etc. All the usual suspects are in most of the movies.
They probably could take all the same actors and made a more adult raunchy version of the Hotel Transvania series. I'm kinda surprised they didn't.
"Twilight's worst plot point ever."
Honestly that's like trying to pick the smelliest sh*t out of a pile of crap.
lol so true.🤣
Can someone elaborate more on the plot point because I’m too lazy to look it up
@@tyreviews6774 Remember wolf boy? Good cause I don't remember his name. Anyway Bella got pregnant and had a daughter. He imprinted on her daughter so she will one day become his mate. Yeah it's as creepy as it sounds.
@@tyreviews6774 I guess that it's the one where Jacob, the loser from the main love triangle, actually didn't fell in love with Bella, the protagonist, but to her yet to be born daughter that grew super fast for some shit reason
@@ericregis3912 thx for the clarification. Now I have an even better excuse to not watch these movies.
Mavis can fit into the "innocent but sexy" trope. She's never seen the real world, she has no standards for what makes a good human. She just turned 18. This is the perfect fantasy for people who identify with the "average man child" character. A perfect 'victim' who will view them as awesome and perfect, easy to dominate, just because they don't know any better. The afterwards she just goes into the "mature woman character who takes care of but somehow still romantically loves the man child."
This triggered my old trauma heh
The fact that an animated show about a talking horse can break that trope is kinda funny. Diane Nguyen from Bojack Horseman KILLS this trope. She starts out innocent, sexy and submissive to powerful men like Bojack Horseman and her then-husband: Mr Peanutbutter. Mr peanutbutter is a man-child who is loved by the world and has been implied to have white privilege. He treats her like how he wants to be treated, like a child. Diane is even forced to back down from fighting against a r*pist due to the fact Mr Peanutbutter was working with him. Eventually, she stands her ground and divorces him and stands up to Bojack.
Wasn't she 118 in the first movie
She aint 18 wtf
@@Esterfox1987 she is 18 teen years coded. Even her father implies she is a teen vampire.
6:47 ok but this is so funny
i'd actually love to see a movie that went down that path with dracula shamelessly aiming to kill the protag
I feel like Mavis was supposed to be an actual character but the writers just gave her the task of doing whatever they think is "women stuff", like getting pregnant, constantly contradicting men and being pretty or something.
They should have at least made him a bit more like Jonathan from the original Dracula novel. That man was just a polite little Englishman who just accepted the wacky shit that was constantly happening to him. He was a lawyer who was smart but didn't even bat an eye when Dracula started spidercrawling on the ceiling. I just want this man to be functional, but also the type of person who would easily get kidnapped. He's got his shit together, but only knida. It would be sweet if Mavis fell for him slowly, and all because she liked his quirky, yet polite, personality.
THAT would have been funny.
johnny in the first movie is alright to me but they dumbed him down way too much in the sequels for my liking. he was already dumb but they really just cranked it up to 11
Yeah. Johnny in one and two is a loveable doof but he does get more and more dumbed down tbh which sucks. He should be maturing more while maintaining some of that fun goofiness. In 4 he had some good character moments here and there(like being the jungle expert when he and Drac were on their quest) but overall was still dumb Johnny. Mavis doesn't get much character development either. And Drac's arc kinda gets reset each film which is a bummer. If they ever do a fifth film I hope they mature him a bit and perhaps we get more time seeing him and Mavis as a couple cause after the first film they took a backseat tbh
In the first movie he seemed Goofy and loveable and brought out the best in people through positivity. Now he's just a gag character.
For me personally, I have mixed feelings about this trope. If it's done poorly, it's done REALLY poorly and comes across as some incel fantasy - but if it's done well (unpopular opinion in 3...2...), then I think it can actually be really cute! I can't actually judge Johnny and Mavis's relationship, since I haven't watched the Hotel Transylvania movies, but that's just my personal hot take.
I think Futurama made it work with Fry and Leela.
3:04 Just to clarify, animators don’t design the characters, concept artists and character designers do. Animators do the animation, art direction is an entirely different department.
Yeah. But think about it. The animators control all her movements. I’m sure someone went off tangent and did some things to the model for fun lol
I actually enjoyed the first movie and loved Mavis the most.... But I couldn't stand Johnny. The "zing" aka "soulmates" thing felt like it was trapping Mavis into this relationship. She didn't fall in love with him for his personality, she fell for him because FATE decided their souls were bonded together. Poor girl.
She did fall for him before she knew he was human
@@Femmeaesthetic What does that have to do with what I said?
every werewolf fanfic be like
@@js8qp2pwisos every omegaverse be like
@@anarchomando7707 every self insert fanfic be like
The "protagonist needs to be as bland as possible to be an audience surrogate" trope, in trying to give the audience a blank canvas to roleplay themselves into for immersion, assumes that the audience is also bland. The design expects us to immerse ourselves in the story through a character that is nothing like us.
Human lives are complex. Each and every single one of us is a unique individual with their own personalities, morals, goals, flaws, etc. So when we go see a movie, or read a book, or play a video game in which the protagonist is nothing like us because his design is meant to be *_and remain_* a hollow shell, the result is that no one gets the immersion the creators were aiming for because all you can think of is "why couldn't we have a character that behaves like an actual realistic human instead of this mannequin that sticks out like a sore thumb in the narrative?"
This, so much this.
Do creators of bland audience inserts really believe humans have nothing more interesting going on? Are they themselves so devoid of any dreams and personalities outside of the most basic framework, that they think the rest must be as well? Do they honestly think it seems *fun* to imagine oneself as someone without interests, dreams, style, personality, opinions, rich inner life, or anything, really?
I wouldn't say humans are þat unique:
þere are behavioural pattern in humans þat just repeat and repeat and repeat.
Actually þere are classes of human conduct which prove true if certain conditions are achieved
I mean in games I do not mind this since you’re actually controlling the character but yeah in movies it’s def not the move.
You're half right. A character you can relate to is important. A blander audience surrogate is not a bad trope inherently, humans operate on a level of relatability often to our detriment, it's why we like dogs and people say foolish things like your pet snake can't love you, because can't relate to the way a snake might express fondness (if a snake can DISLIKE a specific person, I find it rather hard to believe they can't LIKE a specific person, and I've never seen any legitimate zoology that says so with certainty).
Having a character that's meant to be the audience's surrogate but is very very personality driven and possibly very opinionated runs the risk of turning off people who aren't anything like that, they can't immerse themselves through a character they're nothing like. It's why a lot of open world video games have main playable characters that exist to be you and that's it, though there are also some like Horizon where the character does have a strong personality. What comes with that is some people are going to really like Aloy from that game, some people aren't, and that's fine because we dislike people in real life for no particular reason too. But when you want to audience to see themselves in a character, giving them a strong personality will make them relatable to some and exclude others.
Neither is good or bad inherently. There's nothing wrong with making a character meant to relate to specific audiences, like a character from a marginalized group where their experience is highly relevant to the story for example, also nothing wrong with a blank slate.
But Johnny is just a ""blank slate"" who is actually a man child. And does have personality, just a very off putting one with no depth.
@@Wanettepoems I hate it how even though characters who get the most relatability are ones like Harley Quinn, The Joker (from the stand-alone movie) and similar power fantasy icons, the everyman or woman trope is used so commonly.
It's most overused in Japan with the dating sims and games where you're a blank character who could be anyone. In east Asia the culture is one of blending in opposed to the western culture of standing out, so it's very normal over there, but it really doesn't translate over to that western audience that well. That doesn't stop Hollywood from using that trope anyway, because Hollywood.
I worked on the first Hotel Transylvania. I can confirm that the character designers and animators knew exactly what they were doing with Mavis.