@@cloudGGswatch the video man. The same people butthurt about being called flat earthers for screaming their opinion without honestly engaging with reality/the evidence are once again proving themselves to be flat earthers by not engaging with reality/the evidence. This video presents the evidence on both sides of the debate, you're just latching onto a bait title.
I appreciate that you’re one of the few content creators who are actually creating content around 6v6. All these other creators yapped and yapped about 6v6, now 6v6 is here and they’re busy playing Marvel Rivals. Like you said, the soul of the game is on the line and the devs need input and community feedback.
i agree *but* its also very much a decision the team made, launching 6v6 when MR released, im enjoying my 2 cakes, but i'd be lying if i said MR wasnt more fun than ow.
@Kevin-Kx oh don’t get me wrong. I’m playing both as well. Im solely playing 6v6 when I do play ow bc that’s me doing my part of making sure the devs see how wanted this game mode is. That being said, I do think there’s a level of social responsibility that content creators have. They stoked the fire that is the 6v6 debate, so they should be here to take part of the 6v6. Because to me it just shows me their true colors, they were just complaining just to complain.
Both are fun and I am enjoying both mostly 6v6 with ow but it is funny to me how everyone ran to rivals and spat on ow like it doesn’t have half the things that ow players complained about in ow like mass rez. Adam warlock literally has a self rez and his ult is a mass rez and its fine but the same People who complained are acting blind that these games are arguably the same exact things
Marvel Rivals helped me realize that some of the bigger problems with overwatch (the gameplay mistakes people make) are actually problems that all hero shooters face.
I know I’ve been pretty critical of Freedo in the past but credit where credit is due, he’s the only big content creator left that still cares about Overwatch and he puts his time where his mouth is. He’s right the easy thing to do would have been to jump ship to rivals and get easy views like the other “Overwatch creators” have done but Freedo understands the importance of this time even as someone who hasn’t seen a place for 6v6.
I've been loyal since warcraft paid $15 a month subscription for them to disappoint me. Then I switched over to OW great at first talked blizzard and it's games up saying they can be a Microsoft of the gaming industry, only been a let down for yrs. Even if they fix the game I'm done they've failed me too many times. Games like a sinking ship, players are drowning, but the captains don't care till their feet get a little wet. No I jumped ship, and I'm not coming back so they can skin monetize all the money in my pocket out to fill the holes in the ship, na they can die on that ship
You actually might be right I can't think of a single other creator that still gives a fuck. That's so sad lol, why did they wait so long to give us the default mode of the game lol
This is a wild take. Ow2 isn't as fun. There's no honor in going down with the ship, it's just lunacy. I had 1k+ hrs in OW and then Blizzard changed it. If you can't see how this clown is talking out of both sides of his mouth is insane.
I just want to point out that the video has only been out for 44 minutes but is more than an hour long. How are yall jumping to conclusions without watching it?
A lot of people are commenting on this saying Freedo has 180’d. I don’t feel as though his opinion has changed. He is in full support of 6v6 if they can balance the “fundamental issues.” (League has item shop and hero bans was one example he cites) And Freedo is not saying that 6v6 solves the problems of tank queues or formats. He’s saying “6v6 is more fun, more unbalanced, but at least it’s more interesting. Given we can’t have perfect balance, this is the version of the game I prefer.” Also, even if the opinion has changed, I’m grateful that he’s not too stuck in on one specific view. I would agree he’s pushed 5v5 as being the best option pretty strong before, but we also didn’t have the full 6v6 playtest. I personally prefer 5v5, and hearing Freedo talk about why he prefers 6v6, I don’t feel the need for hostility. I like it being more of an arena shooter than the team comp builder, but it’s not entirely one or the other.
Also important to mention, Marvel Rivals has created a comparison case that shows it is possible for Overwatch for do 6v6 with hero bans. Different info, different opinions to reflect the info we have.
Freedo has always refuted that 6v6 solved a lot of issues people thought it did, hence the “flat earth” title. Revisionist history kinda thing. Here he is reinforcing that, “yes, it’s broken just like I said it was. But I actually like it.”
@@KKJazz I don’t think he said he ever disliked 6v6. Using the term “flat earther” was probably a bit harsh, but he was trying to describe how people would make nonsense complaints about the game. When you take their complaints to their logical conclusion, it wouldn’t make sense. A good example would be how they cite that “tank synergy” would improve the complexity of the game, but it can very easily devolve into double shield being way too strong, and double shield is not really all that complex. It’s simply rotating shield health cooldowns. To be fair, those are things we can try to tweak/balance, but it might lead to a loss of hero identity. If we fix double shield by lowering shield health, not only does it feel like tanks can’t really do their damage mitigation role, but heroes like sig having a shield health of like 400 would make it an almost irrelevant part of his kit. another piece of evidence I will cite, Freedo has mentioned before that he liked 2cp assault during the 6v6 era. While he’s obvious not advocating for all of overwatch to be exclusively “poke at the choke” and cycle cooldowns, he didn’t find it to be intolerable either. He has always been ok with the game being a bit less arena-shooter. I think it’s just a bit reactionary to say Freedo is going all “revisionist history,” although I certainly wasn’t expecting a video like this to come out. To reiterate, I appreciate a willingness to change one’s outlook or overall stance/position on a topic. And his talking points haven’t changed. It’s not revisionist to say he’s always wanted hero bans, because that is something he’s always asked for. Also one more thing to note: we aren’t always beholden to everything we say always and forever. Opinions are allowed to change, and we don’t need to get up in arms about him refining his opinion a bit more, at least for right now.
Yeah I agree with just about everything he said. Making OW an Esport has failed. Hard fact with OWL being gone now. If they're trying to compete at the party game level 6v6 will be better. Even if I personally liked 5v5 way way more. But competitively it's a mess. Tank synergy will always be a problem and players are too dumb to do anything about it. He's fighting Rein Zar almost the entire time here. Literally the freest and most boring character duo to play against. Being able to ban rein or zar will fix that and allow it to be more chaotic and less pressure individually but will keep at bay the obnoxious synergy the biggest flaw with the game. I'll still hope they stick with 5v5 but if they go back to 6v6 because of player demand it'll be a crime if they argue it's competitive but won't give us bans.
Marvel Rivals made me realize overwatch NEEDS hero bans for competitive viability. It makes competitive far more tolerable, and keeps oppressive metas from taking over.
It was also just really fun at EWC as an esports enjoyer. Sometimes with a super strong meta, you just swap one hero for another and the meta doesn't change much, but it's fun.
@@baileyskatesagreed Playing Hawkeye doesn’t mean much if you hit 2 out of every ten shots lol. Diamond is the perfect place for Bans. Same for widow in overwatch
I was very much a 6v6 skeptic too, but this playtest actually pleasently surprised me, and I've been having WAY more fun than I ever expected, and I get what the 6v6 enthusiasts were saying now. With all that said, there's still issues with it and it's not a magical silver bullet. I think it should be brought back as a SEPERATE mode. Like, why have OR when you can have AND? Then let the community play whatever they prefer. I actually personally like both now. I think replacing 5v5 entirely would be a major mistake, especially given that a lot of the people that were screaming for 6v6 have already gone to Rivals. Overwatch is the only game where 5v5 exists, so kicking out the players who enjoy that would likely kill the game entirely. But if they add it as a seperate mode and then also add hero bans like you say, things will be looking very healthy for the future of the game. I think the next six months and how Blizzard responds to Rivals is going to be critical for Overwatch's future. I'm crossing my fingers that things go well, because I love this game. Rivals is fun and all, but it's pretty obvious to me a lot of that is just the honeymoon phase. When you actually look at the fundamentals of what the game does, it has pretty much all the same issues that Overwatch does. People are just too blinded right now by the shiny new game effect and the fact that everyone is still learning the heroes and figuring out the meta to realise that. That's why Rivals can't replace Overwatch for me at least, but it is a fun game to play when I want to play a hero shooter but also want a break from Overwatch. And I certainly welcome the competition, and we're already seeing Blizzard loosening up a little with the monetisation by giving away a bunch of free skins that were going to be shop skins, so that's really good for the game too, and I hope that continues.
I don't understand why you can't have a comp mode for both. There are games 10 years older than OW that were able to pull this off in the 2010s, and those games didn't have no where near the player pool as OW.
I prefer 6v6 but I agree they should keep both modes. I haven't seen any compelling reason against it. The 5v5 "muh queue times" argument suggests that splitting the player base doesn't matter 5v5 will always have good queue times no matter how few people queue up for it because of 1:2:2
As someone who has played since day 1 of OW1 closed beta, Overwatch is currently, and finally, the game I've always wanted it to be (for the most part). I've always wanted it to be more balanced, more sweaty, more competitive, and more ability for individual play making. The problem is that it's just all too late. I still play, but I'm about to be 34 years old. I don't have it in me to grind and take it as seriously as I used to. There was a time when I was a nuts hitscan player. Like, REALLY good. I took the game way too seriously and grinded sooooooo hard to get that good. And I always thought how much more I would dominate if the game was structured like it is now. They just took too long, and now I'm old and can't be bothered with grinding to be that good anymore. Or even really care as much as I used to about the game. Even though I'll always love OW. I don't want to see it move away from where I've always dreamed the game would be. But also, I don't know that I care enough at all about it anymore. I still play, but I'll never be as good as I once was or take it as seriously as I once did. All of this is to say that I don't know how I feel about all of it anymore, but I think I just want to see the game succeed beyond me at this point. Whatever that looks like.
6v6 feels like an actual game ngl 5v5 was basically deathmatch with 2 raidbosses running around you can kill tanks again,widow is more divable (should put the hp back to how it was ngl)and the other snipers can't get away with as much bullshit as before even with a mercy pocket
See this comment right here is precisely why I DISLIKE the 6v6 argument and can't take it seriously. Some of yall out here calling tanks raid bosses and saying how they can die now, and yet I've heard the exact opposite from others to argue for 6v6, that playing tank is miserable because the entire enemy team is shooting at you and you just melt. Which is it? Are tanks boss-level power who never die, or are they made of glass and get blown to pieces in 2 seconds? I understand both can happen, but the arguments I always hear are talking about how much it's one or the other. Both can't be equally prevalent.
@@Wraice619both are true in a way. But 5v5 has the solid problem of both of those statements being true at all times. 6v6 makes neither of those statements true and it’s easier to balance. 6v6 is simply just the better game. Factual. U can like 5v5 more, that’s fine. But there is no way to fix the tank problem in 5v5. 6v6 isn’t “perfect” but it will always be leagues better just from the tank issue being eliminated
People gotta realize that the average player doesn't care to have a meaningful discussion hence all the flaming going on lol. Im a 6v6er but obviously understand the downsides (Which WILL happen) Yes there will be broken comps. Yes space will be more contested
I can’t even read these comments anymore man why are y’all so mean, he’s saying what he enjoys about the game and of course his opinion is gonna change as what he enjoys about it changes. Y’all are just haters. I don’t agree with everything freedo says but I’m not a jerk about it
Reap what you sow, but at the same time I feel you. Some of these are just unnecessarily downright nasty. A bit of ironic sarcasm and "we told you so" is warranted, but not some of the shit I'm seeing in this short of a period.
videos like these make me appreciate marvel rivals so much people trash talked me for saying competitive gaming is ruining overwatch in OW 1 but not only did it actively delete OW 1 it killed it and gave us one of the worst sequels of all time LOL. gaming is about FUN first, hopefully overwatch learns this lesson, not that i care since i have an alternative
At this point I think he's just grifting. He contradicts himself all the damn time or is just incorrect. It's ok to like one or the other but the lying is insane.
@MrBreakdownx where tho. He's always said he likes the synergies bur 5v5 will produce a more balanced game. He's always said he liked the value he can get in a 6v6 game bc it's easy. All he does in this video is break down clips as they happened and talk about the drawbacks of the mode. As someone who loved his 5v5 takes a ton, the thumbnail and title threw me for a loop, but the content is just classic Freedo
@@dusergaming7252 How is people being in the spawn room counter swapping a more balanced game. How is it more freedom? It's like he becomes willing fully ignorant when it benefits his argument.
@@MrBreakdownx you just admitted you don't know what "balanced" means. Being able to 1 to 1 counter every hero with another (in the same role) is the definition of balanced (all things being equal). The opposite would be never needing to counter/swap because 1 hero pick is so obviously better than the rest (launch Brig). This isn't Halo, there's no even-starts. Unique hero abilities will always have some form of counters. In order to balance those counters, they need to have equal strength. When you successfully balance them, you arrive at being able to pick 1 hero to counter another. The solve for this is hero picks/bans or hero drafting.
Aye. He's been solid for a long time. Haven't always agreed with his takes but so what. I wish he hadn't done that Porsche glaze vid a while back. It really hurt his rep.
There's plenty reason to appreciate his presence; a lot of interesting and thought out genuine takes, saying everybody should be loving freedo is massive glaze and narrow sighted. There is plenty reason "free-thinking" or not to not vibe with the dude and the way he portrays himself in videos
@@exart8409 I don't think that really helps in convincing anybody besides the people who already agree with you, nobody wants to listen to a guy/ respect a guy that blatantly disrespects them and talks down to them. Also with his arguments often being randomly contradictory in the same video, randomly emotionally charged, randomly out of touch, I would be hard pressed personally to say "he has the right to be"
Queue times is all the data one needs to know which format the community prefers. All the rest of that subjective shit doesn't mean shit if you can't get enough players who actually want to play the game.
Queue times has nothing to do with what the community prefers. It's all about which roles players prefer to play. In most games, tank sees the least amount of play across communities so queue times becoming weird is something any game like this can predict will happen 100%. This also happens because of the move to 2-2-2. In Open Queue, this wasn't an issue because the match maker was not factoring in role preferences.
Queue times can be impacted by a variety of factors. - Regular updates to the game - IF the game is free to play or requires payment - How old the game is - If the community feels respected. Now apply that to OW1 and OW2 and you shouldn't be surprised that Marvel Rivals is doing well. If you don't take any of these critical factors into account, then you're setting yourself up for potential failure.
I first mained Tank then Damage in the course of Overwatch 1's lifespan, but have since started LOVING Support with 5v5 because there's so much more room to use my hero than just heal botting. It created a really balanced style of multitasking that felt rewarding and skillful to manage. There's much more freedom than before (for all roles in at least one way or another) so it's hard to say if I miss 6v6. The only thing I miss are tank ult combos, really.
It took me two games in 6v6 mode to remember why I hated it: on DPS shooting shields or having matrix in my face 24/7, and on support feeling powerless or heal botting. 5v5 is so much better, it's not even close. Plus, solo tanking on Hazard is fun af
As a support player, supports being vulnerable is great thing. Imo a support shouldn't be able to sustain everything and be able to duel anything that's not a tank.
@@kims4149 Why not? On DPS I play a lot of flankers and like the idea that I get to duel the supports. To me, that’s way more enjoyable than trying to get a pick on a helpless support when no one is there to protect them. I also prefer it from the support POV when I’m playing Ana I don’t have to rely on my tank to always peel for me if it’s just one DPS diving me.
My real take away from 6v6 and the patch is that they should never have tried to balance the game for the top end players. If the top players find one meta and only play that then let them. If they get tired and leave, that's fine, it's 1% of the player base. Make the 99% happy.
@@skrrrtsusman3450 not really, the more ''lore'' and ''character'' engaged playerbase actually tends to play on metal Ranks. There''s way more Mercys on Gold/Plat than in Master/GM, and about the same proportion will buy the skins.
4:37 "Variety and individuality, even if it causes you to lose really badly, should be prioritized" I've heard you make similar comments in the past, and I think I'm really struggling to understand what you mean. Players WON"T play with variety and individuality if it causes you to lose really badly. An unbalanced game doens't look like a zany free-for-all of random stuff, it looks like an exact mirror match of the exact same heroes, every game mode, every map, no matter what. It looks like a full year of GOATs on the ladder. I am left entirely puzzled when you seem to be calling for that, but also clearly don't want that.
“Variety” is a crucial word here to make sure you don’t misconstrue it the way you did. Variety means the game is balanced in such a way that there are infrequent mirror matches.
@@KKJazz any game with infrequent mirror matches is a game that is incredibly well balanced where a huge number of the hero roster is competitively viable. I think what Freedo is attempting to say (though I don't know that I've heard him clearly express it in this way) is that the Overwatch devs have to be willing to aggressively nerf keystone heroes in a stagnant meta; even if it means making those specific 2 or 3 heroes temporarily unviable. Vocally requesting a less balanced game is a TERRIBLE and confusing way to express that, becaue the rest of the entire hero roster still needs to be very well balanced for nerfing those meta keystone heroes to make any difference. Hero bans doens't fix this problem, but it DOES dramtically increase the time it takes for the player base to "solve" a meta, which is far preferable, as it causes the period of meta instability/variety between balance patches to be significantly extended.
Hey Freedo, always been a fan of your content, felt like giving you a bit of well intentioned feedback. Your last idk 5 to 10 videos have been continuously escalating in hostility to your public, which I guess is warranted as every video has a lot of hate in the comments, but it's coming to a point where it is sounding less and less like banter and sometimes, as straight up bitching. I think it's not healthy for your content and it's not healthy for you. Please don't lose sight of what makes your content fun and enjoyable for the sake of saying "I told you so" repeatedly to a public that won't listen be it true or not. Or rather, is this the kind of content you WANT to make? Sometimes it's easy to lose track of why we're doing things. Cheers, have a nice holiday!
I dont understand why Freedo is talking about what he is. 6v6 feels more tactical and favors the better team. but it also takes away carry potential? It doesnt make sanse, 6v6 has less space per person, the carries occupy more space on tank, are more lethal on dps, and heal/save more on support
After watching the whole video I feel that I don’t want 6v6. You described so many downsides of it, and didn’t even touch queue times (which is major factor why we got 5v5). Not convinced.
even 5v5 would benefit bans, it's just bans allow for even in awful metas for diverse matches, it essentially helps both teams to have more immediate influence that match. I am for 6v6 but either way in ranked bans are very necessary. Also im just used to being easier to beam down in 5v5 as tank since i mostly play OQ
I think it's ok for freedo to talk about all the lovely intricate aspects of why "6v6 is more fun than 5v5" but imma be real. My memory of Overwatch 1 and 6v6 wasn't so rosy. It was filled with abusive comms, people who thought playing the meta was the only way to play Overwatch and team mates who refused under all circumstances to wait for the team to respawn or 'synergize'. The game forced you to strategize and work as a team to accomplish an objective. But what I have learned in all my time playing overwatch is well trying to get a bunch of bronze/silver players to create adaptive strategies happens once in a blue moon. At least with 5v5 you will get some nutty individual who'll make one play and suddenly before you know it you aren't going to lose with 0 ticks on the first point.
And in 5v5 instead of using team strata they giga buffed tanks that walked through lower rank lobbies with ease. It goes both ways, you complain about people not working together but the other side is players complaining about tanks having too much power.
@Montrash Sounds like a 6v6er. I get that yalls brains don't function at full capacity, but he has a point. Forcing a mode that is more reliant on synergy, in a game where the majority of players are running solo or duo and doing their own thing, is a massive issue. It's one we put up with for years, and now everyone wants it back.
@@Wraice619 What about the people who play WOW, or LOL, most players play solo but you have to play as a team for the most part from what I know to make plays and win the games. It's no different to Overwatch. Saying team work is a downside is a skill issue take and it lowers the skill ceiling dramatically. 6v6 was abandoned and never given the same love that 5v5 has been given so there's no point arguing that. It's a fact that 5v5 has been supported better by the devs than 6v6 ever was, can't argue with that.
I'm a casual player. Played OW for about 2.5k hours and OW2 for about 500 hours. I stoped playing because i just felt OW2 was not as fun as OW. I tried 6v6 when it came out and from the very first match i played, the game was fun again. And thats my only reason to wanna play a game. Fun is always better.
Do we have way too many off tanks now? Like Mauga, Junkerqueen, Doomfist, Is ramatra a main tank, is Orisa a main tank? Idk Maybe roadhog will do better if he had his changes reverted back so he can have his heal mechanic and pig pen back, and dmg reduction during heal he might be better as main tank maybe.
Or even sense we got whole another player on the field how about we take out the dps passive and see if tanks pop at the same speed cause I think they will still die with or without that dps passive.
48:56 This is exactly how I felt when playing Widowmaker in 6v6. I felt very little pressure on me because there was so much front line brawling going on. Also it's very easy to kill tanks as Widow because of the headshot damage reduction being removed, and them having lower health now.
He spent the weekend grinding it... he changed his mind, the way you say it in ypur comment is if he said it set and stone... people can change their mind my guy
He more specifiaclly would say 5v5 is more balanced which may be better for the game which is a fairly logical take. But now he just wants to enjoy Overwatch in this less balanced format if it can reach higher levels of fun occasionally. His acual perfect form of Overwatch was always 6v6 but with hero bans to help control how imbalanced it can be.
@@Vidilian This is exactly my take as well, and I haven't even played the 6v6 mode as much as Freedo probably has. I think in a perfect world, as a competitive esport, 5v5 OW is more balanced, easier to watch and play and understand, and just overall probably better. But that's only if the goal is to make a competitive game. But playing Rivals, and now this 6v6 mode, has sort of opened my eyes to how deep in the competitive hole OW has gone. Over the past 8 years, the community has forced the devs to "balance" all of the fun out of this game. Rivals is popping off right now I think precisely because it's so wild and unbalanced and chaotic and FUN. And I think this 6v6 mode being similarly unbalanced has made it really fun for me, moreso than the regular 5v5 mode. Queue times will still be a major issue, but I think this game needs to put the hard brakes on being a super competitive game. I don't care anymore if things are balanced. I just want to have fun. And while I was a 5v5er before, I've had the fun now, and I'm here for it.
@@dewinmartinez7222this dude went from “Clearly you didn’t watch the whole video” on my comment to “Hey man, he changed his mind, so what… 😢” grovel at the feet of your king Freedo LMAO this is hilarious
First off, its incredibly disingenuous to talk about 6v6 like its Splatoons 2. Your constant caveats about how 6v6 will be broken forever, has no competitive credibility, and frankly the belittling of the community on how they don't understand anything they are asking for is so unpalatable. 11:55 Freedo, just stop. That's like saying 2v2 basketball is more competitive than 5v5 basketball cause there lies more responsibility on each player to preform skillfully. EVEN IF its true that 2v2 basketball is "more competitive", in some arbitrary, philosophical, sense, we still don't value it as such. 1v1 Overwatch is even more competitive than 5v5 or 6v6. See how dumb that sounds, Freedo? Lets see if this one gets deleted too lmfao.
I think part of it is because he’s been crucified for being 5v5 in the past, and a lot of people made fun of/came after him for a lot of his takes, and dismissed him for them. I don’t always agree with him but I think a little bit of attitude is justified for how he’s been treated
@@aidanhenderson6222 I've been watching his content since the OW1 days and this trend of him being pretentious started way before the 5v5 6v6 situation.
Agree with all your points and I'm worried and curious to see where the game goes with this. What do you think about the aftershocks of the season 9 changes? I'm sort of in the middle on this issue. But I'm curious what your take is. You didn't address it in the video, so I'm curious, does it not change anything?
I too am torn. It certainly made projectiles, who I play, far more consistent for me - but didn't change the gap vs hitscans so much at the higher tiers. Tanks benefit the least and in fact get hit more easily, was a huge oversight (remember they were exploding in those first weeks). This season they nerfed down a shade the hit boxes again... idk. It's not a make or break issue for me. Kinda a nothing burger for me this point but I err on the side of it probably improving more things than it hurts. If Venture released without them I think gp gets worse. Overall ttk is slightly longer and that's probably fine.
I'll always respect a man who dares to challenge his own beliefs. Whether you stood with 5v5 or now prefer 6v6. I think you're one of the few content creators who looks at the game with that kind of honesty. I also believe you are one of, if not the most passionate creator for Overwatch. Your experience with the game and your striving to see it succeed is something very few others can match. I hope a lot of people can see that now.
At this point hes arguing in bad faith. A lot of his points contradict one another or is based on incomplete evidence. He super cherry picks his argument then overkills in gaslighting, acting as if there aren't people actually paying attention. And if you bring up his contradictions, he pompously dismisses you as being too stupid to understand.
video felt too antagonistic for my tastes but I appreciate the work you put into it and the fact that you show the cons of 6v6 as well as the bros. I may have moved on to Marvel Rivals but still. Liked.
Ahhhh.....finally. 6v6=more crazy bullshit. That's what was missing from 5v5. The biggest problem I had with 5v5 was that I am not a particularly good arena shooter player. However, I am a much better positional player and better at communicating. In 5v5, those matter a lot less. Hopefully we can go back to the glory days and revive OW with the grand return of 6v6 and a more zany, moba style.
If you bothered to watch the full video, he's almost saying 6v6 is better facetiously. He's more saying 6v6 is more fun because it's alot less balanced, same as marvel rivals. Try watching the full video instead of reading the title of the vid before commenting lol.
I’m all for balancing less around pros and more around casuals and 6v6 is my game but I think taking this first week as gospel is misguided there’s a mix of sketchy balance and people who have no idea how to play 6v6 so match up and engagement knowledge isn’t there. I’ve seen some goated ball, lifeweavers and queen players because they fulfil their roll and don’t engage on the enemies terms. Some of what you’ve compared is akin to coughing baby and nuclear bomb some players especially OW1 veterans have got the feel of 6v6 quicker while other are still face tanking as you do in 5v5
I just don’t see what other people are saying. I’m Top 500 support and tank and I can do as much damage on support as before, and I don’t feel as hunted as before. It’s just a matter on if it’s a coordinated push towards the supports. It’s more nuanced than that but my experience has been support has been different to play, you just have more to do which is a test of skill. On tank, there’s way more to do, and you can focus on your own gameplay more than having to do everything.
You CAVED??? Nahhh I thought you’d stand your 5v5 ground Edit: For future deniers, just watch the vid. Easy Edit 2: One more thing before I go back to watching Jerma vids, bad players =/= 5v5 is better. Giving examples of people playing bad in 6v6 doesn’t justify caving in and saying “6v6 is much more strategic and more fun than 5v5.” Freedo said it, not me. Bye!
@@peeks71651:24 “I think 6v6 is more fun objectively” after like 2 years of saying 5v5 was better. If that isn’t caving, idk what is. Idc about this argument tbh, it’s just the way he swapped SO quickly.
He never stood on it being 5v5. You clearly did not watch or listen to what he was saying. It was always a balance issue. And 6v6 is far more unbalanced. You are one of those players that has helped ruin the game by not understanding what makes it good.
6v6 in OW2 has been the most fun Ive had in OW2 since the cracks in 5v5 started showing. 6v6 is more fun, chaotic, skillful, and more skill expressive in my opinion. I find all roles highly enjoyable in 6v6 (I consistently play all roles and majority of the roster). When it comes to tanks them being a mix of the more brawl style of OW2 with OW1 balancing has made the role so much more enjoyable for me (I’m a tank synergy enjoyer). Tank in 5v5 was overall a miserable experience with counterwatch. I also disagree with your opinion on supports being miserable to play, I find them more thrilling to play with the higher micromanaging. Though for a new player to support I can see why it would be off putting as the role can be stressful in 6v6. DPS is just DPS nothing really changed there imo. I also find counter picking in 6v6 less annoying than in 5v5 but that’s just me. About hero bans I think in 6v6 it’s a good idea for diamond and above, but overall it’s something I personally won’t lose sleep over. I also like how 6v6 is more team based, which is what overwatch was about. Without communication you will lose. As a player since 2017 I really really hope we go back to 6v6 it just feels right.
Why does this video need to be 1 hr long - your title says one thing but your tone and points flip back and forth many times. Pre-12 minutes you're saying how 5v5 is better game design wise, but you want it to go to 6v6? wtf
I also wanna say I think it’s a skill in itself to bring order to chaos . Cause a battle should feel chaotic but being able to spot those openings in 6v6 with everything going on feels good imo . Some people may hate it I love it personally 😂
Do you just read the title and base your entire take on it? I’m like 5mins and he’s still criticizing Blizzard and 6v6. His position has always been that he liked playing 6v6, but people just ignore the negatives and yes, that they have flat earther brains. TikTok attention spans are crazy.
@@why8642it's ironic because the same people butthurt about being called flat earthers for not engaging with reality are, once again, not engaging with reality and spamming their reaction to a video title, proving the label was correct the whole time.
This is good news, but Blizzard has done nothing by destroy my trust with Overwatch over the years. I still don't think I'll ever be coming back to the game.
Literally. Can't take this seriously anymore. To act like more complex gameplay due to synergies, ult economy etc. makes the game less competitive is so goofy. Casual players greatly benefitted from 5v5, and now they're sobbing in the corner because you actually have to manage your cooldowns to not get deleted as a tank. A whole lot of yapping. Could've just made a video on hero bans again and left it at that, because that's the main thing 6v6 needs, while 5v5 can NEVER work.
Obviously you didn't watch the video, and didn't watch all the past videos. Or perhaps you watched but didn't listen as you were slamming your keys to type. Freedo said the same things the whole time. He, in many many videos that you can go and watch, said that he preferred 6v6 and it was what he was best at. What exactly was he wrong about? The queue times question hasn't been answered yet. A QP test doesn't prove anything in the long run. I'm confused why there are so many immature people on here that feel the need to cowardly attack Freedo who is providing amazing content and real insight into this game that he obviously loves.
Except it wasn’t really like at all that. Every video he’s made on the topic has been warning people about the downsides of 6v6 in a competitive sense. Since now one wants to listen to downsides and people think it will be great again, he’s saying 6v6 with hero bans would be great. In his mind he isn’t wrong otherwise he’d make a video saying there is no changes needed outside of balance fixes to tanks in 6v6.
@@changeittowumbo8399 lmao. I didn’t know that. That’s unreal holy fuck. That is a big change up since he is say he was cautiously optimistic and made a whole fuck ton of videos early on in OW2 as to why 5v5 is probably better overall.
Wow people still bootlicking a game that lied to them about the premise of OW2 and knew about it for a year but didn’t tell the fans. Yh man let’s reward these devs !
For the "how is knowing the right tank line to win on a map a skill?" comment, it's the same logic as winning in chess. You could use the same logic to say "I picked up a piece of plastic, moved it to the right square and won guys. How is that difficult?" But knowing which piece to use, in which order, and choke out all an opponents options before they recognized what your doing *is the skill we are all talking about here.* Someone with 10,000 hours experience may not notice this anymore, but most people don't have every ability interaction in the game memorized to do these calculations 3 seconds after pushing tab. Most people have to read the game *in real time,* and try to find a way to make an impact with the handful of characters they know how to play. THAT is the skill. Grandmasters (in chess or Overwatch) have the experience to come with that level of skill by default, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a skill. I think this is just a case of being out of touch with the common man. A real "let them eat cake" take on gaming.
@@YourOverwatchI think you missed his point. The fact you are able to reduce the complexity of this game down to "rock, paper, scissors" shows that you have a extremely high level of understanding of the game where the majority player base does not. You even pointed this out when you talked about the other player trying to counter pick your Ram as Zarya - they do not know enough about the game to successfully play rock, paper, scissors. So for 99% of players this game (6v6 version especially) is like 4D chess. 5v5 is like checkers in comparison. You go and shoot things and they die - straightforward and simple, but pretty boring at the end of the day.
ii thought this was just gonna be a rant about 6v6 and a staunch 5v5 defense. I was severley mistaken and i now agree with your position. Trying to balance it foreveryone was never going to work. Having bans and advocating for 6v6 as a "healthier" mode sounds very reasonable great work freedo
6V6 'enjoyers' are committing criminal levels of self-gaslighting & confirmation biasing. This player base does not understand what they are asking for. Flats and Samito do not speak for the average player experience
3:56 This is completely contradictory and makes absolutely no sense🤦♂️ There is more variety because there are more viable options in any given situation
@ I see what you mean but I would argue that in 6v6 there are more competitively viable options in any given situation for both hero picks and decision making
28:00 this is the reason why the devs wanted 5v5, besides faster queue times. You’re able to play whatever you want, and make it work, even if you’re at an inherent disadvantage. In 6v6, it just doesn’t work like that. If I want to play a certain tank in 5v5, I can just completely avoid the other tank if it’s a bad match up and I can be extremely successful at it. It’s a much more individual expression game than the team 6v6 game.
But nah samito says this is non valid he said it never was a problem ppl are just bad at what they do in 6v6 and also he was right coz Blizz could’ve dealt with this issue but they said nah coz they busy making OW2 pve which never got to be
Liked and comment just because of the INSANE work that went into this video. I have watched the group up podcast in a long time. That said the next time you and Samito talk 6v6 it will be must watch content!
As another grizzled veteran of OW1 and now OW2, I gotta say this 6v6 experiment has made me personally enjoy the game again so much more now. I'm glad Blizzard is letting people first experience for themselves how atrocious open queue used to be with 5/6 DPS picks, then 6v6 with role queue. 5v5 definitely had some upsides like not having those 13 minute DPS queues, but truthfully I found the 5v5 game to not capture what made Overwatch fun in the first place. It feels too deathmatchy and almost like the classes are somewhat irrelevant, with supports sometimes having more dps impact than DPS themselves, or Tanks basically being giant DPS with cc abilities. There's some tank combinations with the newer 5v5 style tanks in these new 6v6 matches that could definitely be super oppressive, but overall I think the tank synergy was one of the most exciting parts of OW. I'm sure people will complain about queue times and double shield or other stagnant metas like in the past if 6v6 goes forward, but 6v6 allows for more strategic play and I enjoy playing all 3 roles more in 6v6 than 5v5. Supps get a little more breathing room and can focus on their abilities and healing as well as still impact with damage, rather than basically needing to duel DPS the entire game like in 5v5. Not really sure which is "better" tbh but I just love having that old OW magic back with 6v6 lol
Data point: queue times on Xbox are terrible for DPS because the already small population of tank players are split playing 5v5 and 6v6. So that leaves long dps queues in both. Support queues are about half of the dps queues. Tank queues on both are instant
Agree with most of your analysis in this video, and that’s why I want to remain in 5v5. We already complain about “cosmetic DPS”. Do we really want more damage mitigation and lane control when we already say DPS is struggling? I don’t
Dude, have a break=) Merry Xmass=) Such a good video, and great points too. Shame that nobody will listen as allways... But still i apreciate the work you put in this so much, man. And in the end that's the only thing any reasonable man coud do.
I genuinely quit this game if 6v6 replaced 5v5 in any meaningful form. I liked being individually impactful. If they cater to a bunch of people who hate the game anyways, I'd be disappointed.
As a certified hater I'm glad to see you finally coming around lol. I hope they will keep both modes in the game (5v5 and 6v6) and I'm open to bans as well for competitive
I mean he hasn’t changed his stance. Like where in 5v5 was there a goats comp that dominated the game for years and made the rest of the roster unplayable? This whole time he was just actively trying to remind everyone that 6v6 is flawed. Which it is. It’s just a matter of what trade offs do you prefer.
This is not a freedo rooting for 6v6 video fam. What are you talking about. This is more of a your gonna get what you asked for even though you didn't actually want it btw hero bans please video lol
That's what makes me laugh my ass off, freedo have been jumping to the moon and back about how great 5v5 is and how 6v6 was too bad. Now that Rivals is out and it's perfected the 6v6 formula, suddenly now 6v6 is and what should have been the proper format for OW. As if these losers haven't been championing for 5v5 for 2+ years lmao
I think my main takeaway from the 6v6 test is that it's less fun to solo play. But so much more fun and rewarding to play in groups because the team play is so much more important.
@@rudyramirez125you really want everybody to put their head down in unison? Let ppl be cautious about a game wide change like this, bro been putting what he sees as reasonable warnings, just let it be and stop bitching abt it lol
This game is stuck in time, man, lmfao. OW2 was a mistake and it's fun to see them reverting everything back to OW1. Also...bans? Brother, they're barely testing out 6v6...it'll be another 2 years until they test a ban system. BUT BUY OUR COLLAB SKINS, PLEASE!
As someone who mains DPS/Support in Comp and plays a decent amount of Tank in QP, I'd rather keep the tolerable queue times, open lanes and rewarding FPS mechanics of 5v5, thank you very much. I'm not opposed to creating a 6v6 competitive mode, and I'd probably even play it a fair bit. Once the queue times start getting too long, though, people will naturally stream back to 5v5 (and based on feedback I've seen online, Tank mains seem pretty evenly split on which mode they prefer, making this all but inevitable). You said that 6v6 is objectively more fun, but the clips you spent 2/3 of the video analyzing remind me why I only played OW1 for 6 months before moving on, even though I did enjoy many aspects of the game. I just don't find inexplicable chaos, arcane strategy and autobattler elements fun in what is ostensibly a competitive FPS. To me, 5v5 strikes that perfect balance between rewarding teamplay, cooldown management and mechanics, whereas you've demonstrated mechanics are often irrelevant to the outcome of games in 6v6. For as much fun as people say they're having on Marvel Rivals, the last time I played I had 3 games in a row of people flaming each other for underperforming... in QP... 2 weeks after release. The game has plenty of tilting elements that are easy to overlook when you don't have any expectations for yourself or others, but these will become less and less tolerable as people learn how to play. Honestly, I think it would be for the best if Rivals thrives as a casual experience while OW2 maintains its esports-focused balance philosophy. Once the smoke clears, we'll see which game is fundamentally better.
Damn. A lot of people are intentionally missing the points you’re making. You literally say @ 16:30 the reason for this video and shifting from trying to force balance into this game, whichever format, to enjoying it first should be blizzards primary objective after seeing the overall reaction to MR
Marvel Rivals is fun but the balance also makes it not fun. Its fun for people now but I don't see it lasting long. The burnout will hit and the frustrations will likely settle and bubble
The devs said they'd not do many nerfs though and would rather buff and I guess we can see how that goes. It'll probably be better to preserving the "fun" but I guess we'll just see
@GaymerXL im a little surprised it's lasted this long but I think some of it is anti overwatch people and the anti woke crowd shilling for the game hard right now while it's fresh.
Your OW: shittalks on 6v6 only and actually defends 5v5 Samito: actually talks both pros and cons, honest takes, actually cares about overwatch, literally knows what would make ow great
One of the biggest problems people had was mauga. I feel he fits better in a 6v6 comp. It’s easier to shut him down and you actually have to have a brain to play him effectively in 6v6.
As a casual player and one of 6v6 fans the only thing which was needed for Overwatch 2 was 6v6 card in Quickplay section. In terms of meta pick each hero needs always time to adjust but as soon as you get used to it, everything starts rolling. As said i had same experience with Hog, Junkerqueen and D,va. Sometimes one ultimate can't be enough to break the enemy team. This depends what comp is it especially if Kiriko is on enemy team. Speaking of tank players, i have played more then 50 matches only queue as a tank and i love it. Devs need to choose what path they are gonna be taking for OW2, if they want to compete against Marvel Rivals then they will have to do return 6v6 not only in quickplay but also in rank which will also need 6v6 open queue. If the devs want to compete against all the other shooters like: CS2, Apex and Valorant - then devs will need to say that this is a test and that 6v6 won't be returning. Overwatch classic mode had received a lot of praises for being fun and one of the reasons is because of not being balanced so aiming for the best balance patch will be impossible but this patch what they have done for 6v6 was clearly there best one.
So you now have the 6v6 crowd calling you out for all the shit youve talked, and the 5v5 crowd calling you a sellout. Not sure what the play was here, but you've managed to piss off BOTH sides at the same time. I used to have a lot of respect for your takes on this game. This one video nuked all of it. You're allowed to change opinions, but if you're not gonna apologize to the crowd you shit on for so long, while also abandoning the other half of your audience, then that just comes across like youre trying to kill any goodwill you have with people.
@Wraice619 my exact issue here as well. I'm willing to give him a chance to set a few things wring with somebody, any crowd, but if not then there's always more creators to give my ad watch time to lol
Hero bans is a 100% must great take brotha! I can honestly play both games and enjoy both I genuinely believe both games will do great, overwatch can also listen to community more as well
I don't know how you think 6v6 is faster, it has benefits but it's significantly slower. Fights last longer, need to wait longer to regroup, and needing to get through 2 tanks means you spend more time just waiting for an opening instead of being proactive
tbh they're very similar in 'speed' however the cadence of gameplay can certainly be at a much higher tempo with two tanks cycling together. 5v5 you have to hold angles a lot more, 6v6 the real tank combos oppressively make space, forcing fights. Also I think just the peak potential chaos of 6 players swarming on the screen is 'a lot to take in' and maybe I'm translating that to 'speed'. In general in 5v5 I feel I always know the number of players and where to expect them.
@@engineergaming3830 Not so much the speed but actions per second. Compare rein to ramttra in a 5v5 setting. Now add a second OW2 tank like Mauga. Not only were the tanks made for OW2, combined they have so many abilities in contrast to zarya rein, they'd have to lose an ability or be nerfed to boredom.
Damn Freedo, it sounds like you should take a break from Overwatch and just go enjoy Marvel Rivals. Even while saying you now prefer 6v6 you sound like you hate it. I used to really like your content because you built your arguments well and constructively but a lot of your recent output and this video especially felt like you were just rambling angrily - annoyed at the devs and the community for not listening to your advice. And while I can understand that, since you've been putting so much effort into your work only to get abuse in the comments, this kind of video achieves nothing. You won't be able to educate players that don't want to be educated and if you're hoping to change the opinions of people who argue in your comment section... You won't. Just leave it be if all it brings you is this kind of frustration. 5v5 > 6v6
TL:DR: Supports - More healbotty DPS - Less freedom in angles, but as defences are depleted, kills are fodder. Tanks - If I don't have my friend, I'm on my own. Counterpicking isn't as much in the tank role, now I can't counterswap the tankbusters.
TL:DR the game is more fair and more fun. you have more options for how to play and what 2 pick on al roles since hard countering isnt a thing anymore.
@oskaius7903 Okay, I want you to remember "hard countering doesn't exist in 6v6" so that the next time you hear your favourite streamer say the opposite, you'll have to sweep your pride in your opinions under the rug since you don't ever really come to your own conclusions
@@jacobbaartz7710 fav streamer 🤡 unlike you i dont need 2 watch a 6 hour livestream 2 form oppinions. and no honest person with a brain would ever say there is hard counters in 6v6 cuz there are none. you can play whatever you want if ur good enough. i havent had 2 swap at al unless the enemy is better than i am, unlike in 5v5 where if he picks ram i can no longer play rein even tho i smurf the guys peak.
But.. it's not just Rivals that is in competition of player retention, it's Path of Exile 2 in conjunction with Rivals. There are fun games to play that have come out, and the 6v6 test has honestly come out at the worst time, or the best time depending on your perspective.
@@dewinmartinez7222 sorry, when someone goes from comparing an opinion to flat-earth theory, to then saying "6v6 is objectively more fun" I'm not gonna watch their hour long video. this debate is tired and drawn out
@@honeybadger5035 i don't agree with freedo but damn are you types of people proving his 6v6ers are flat earthers things right. i guess that is just anybody who can't take another persons opinion though, 90% of people hate hearing the other sides complaints but think it's sweet music to listen to complaints they agree with.
What would be cool is to have rotating duo bonuses as well, like Marvel does. Sure they might get banned if they are too OP too, but it could add SO much variety.
I am ready to embrace the wondeful imbalance of 6v6. Also, some constructive feedback: your videos often seem like one long paragraph lately. I think giving our brains a break with some pauses and tranisitions would be nice. I love a good title slide for each section to focus back up. Especially with the crazy gameplay constantly fighting for my attention.
I've said it so many times and I'll say it again, the game needs ranked tiered character stats. Just like how the college 3 point line in basketball is shorter than the NBA line. Characters like widow for instance are hard to balance where they are viable at low ranks (70-85% of players) but not dominant at high ranks. So why not make it such that she does slightly less damage for a headshot at high ranks? We could have finely tuned characters for the different rank tiers and for the pro scene to help balance the game. Another example is moira, who dominates dps duals at low ranks where people can't aim, but whose damage is balanced at higher ranks. This in conjunction with the fact that blizzard always makes drastic buff/nerfs and often changes crucial playstyle elements instead of slowly making minor changes will always keep the game feeling the same. It seems like the devs really just don't understand the game and it's playerbase, and never have.
@@TheLoneDrow916would you care to elaborate? You're opinion doesn't mean much if you don't have any reasoning. I think the analogy first perfectly, college players aren't as good so to keep the 3 point shot meta the line is closer...
Don't ever say I didn't ever get you anything nice for Christmas 🎅🎄
@@YourOverwatch you didn't get us anything nice ☃️🎄
So Samito was right and you were wrong to call 6v6 “flat earth overwatch”? 😮
@@cloudGGswatch the video man. The same people butthurt about being called flat earthers for screaming their opinion without honestly engaging with reality/the evidence are once again proving themselves to be flat earthers by not engaging with reality/the evidence. This video presents the evidence on both sides of the debate, you're just latching onto a bait title.
Take the L and apologize, Freedo.
Ya just admit we were right. We love you and will forgive you
I appreciate that you’re one of the few content creators who are actually creating content around 6v6. All these other creators yapped and yapped about 6v6, now 6v6 is here and they’re busy playing Marvel Rivals. Like you said, the soul of the game is on the line and the devs need input and community feedback.
i agree *but* its also very much a decision the team made, launching 6v6 when MR released, im enjoying my 2 cakes, but i'd be lying if i said MR wasnt more fun than ow.
@Kevin-Kx oh don’t get me wrong. I’m playing both as well. Im solely playing 6v6 when I do play ow bc that’s me doing my part of making sure the devs see how wanted this game mode is. That being said, I do think there’s a level of social responsibility that content creators have. They stoked the fire that is the 6v6 debate, so they should be here to take part of the 6v6. Because to me it just shows me their true colors, they were just complaining just to complain.
They are not Blizzards Slaves the fact that rivals released is not their fault what am i reading @@ayooogeorgeeeeee
Both are fun and I am enjoying both mostly 6v6 with ow but it is funny to me how everyone ran to rivals and spat on ow like it doesn’t have half the things that ow players complained about in ow like mass rez. Adam warlock literally has a self rez and his ult is a mass rez and its fine but the same People who complained are acting blind that these games are arguably the same exact things
So true, no one is talking about it and it’s kinda sad because it’s awsome
Marvel Rivals helped me realize that some of the bigger problems with overwatch (the gameplay mistakes people make) are actually problems that all hero shooters face.
EXACTLY
I know I’ve been pretty critical of Freedo in the past but credit where credit is due, he’s the only big content creator left that still cares about Overwatch and he puts his time where his mouth is. He’s right the easy thing to do would have been to jump ship to rivals and get easy views like the other “Overwatch creators” have done but Freedo understands the importance of this time even as someone who hasn’t seen a place for 6v6.
He works for blizzard
I've been loyal since warcraft paid $15 a month subscription for them to disappoint me. Then I switched over to OW great at first talked blizzard and it's games up saying they can be a Microsoft of the gaming industry, only been a let down for yrs. Even if they fix the game I'm done they've failed me too many times. Games like a sinking ship, players are drowning, but the captains don't care till their feet get a little wet. No I jumped ship, and I'm not coming back so they can skin monetize all the money in my pocket out to fill the holes in the ship, na they can die on that ship
You actually might be right I can't think of a single other creator that still gives a fuck. That's so sad lol, why did they wait so long to give us the default mode of the game lol
@ probably wanted an excuse to not change the game back to 6v6. They shot us in the foot and told us to run a marathon to see how well we do.
This is a wild take. Ow2 isn't as fun. There's no honor in going down with the ship, it's just lunacy. I had 1k+ hrs in OW and then Blizzard changed it. If you can't see how this clown is talking out of both sides of his mouth is insane.
I just want to point out that the video has only been out for 44 minutes but is more than an hour long. How are yall jumping to conclusions without watching it?
3x speed buddy
Listen on 2x speed
You didn’t this community _actually_ engages in substantive debate did you? They’re clearly getting baited by the thumbnail 😂
Because that is what children on the internet do. They already had their comments preloaded into their fingertips before the video started.
Because I loathe this channel and Freedo, simple.
A lot of people are commenting on this saying Freedo has 180’d.
I don’t feel as though his opinion has changed. He is in full support of 6v6 if they can balance the “fundamental issues.” (League has item shop and hero bans was one example he cites)
And Freedo is not saying that 6v6 solves the problems of tank queues or formats. He’s saying “6v6 is more fun, more unbalanced, but at least it’s more interesting. Given we can’t have perfect balance, this is the version of the game I prefer.”
Also, even if the opinion has changed, I’m grateful that he’s not too stuck in on one specific view. I would agree he’s pushed 5v5 as being the best option pretty strong before, but we also didn’t have the full 6v6 playtest.
I personally prefer 5v5, and hearing Freedo talk about why he prefers 6v6, I don’t feel the need for hostility. I like it being more of an arena shooter than the team comp builder, but it’s not entirely one or the other.
Also important to mention, Marvel Rivals has created a comparison case that shows it is possible for Overwatch for do 6v6 with hero bans. Different info, different opinions to reflect the info we have.
Freedo has always refuted that 6v6 solved a lot of issues people thought it did, hence the “flat earth” title. Revisionist history kinda thing. Here he is reinforcing that, “yes, it’s broken just like I said it was. But I actually like it.”
wipe ur mouth when ur done
@@KKJazz I don’t think he said he ever disliked 6v6. Using the term “flat earther” was probably a bit harsh, but he was trying to describe how people would make nonsense complaints about the game. When you take their complaints to their logical conclusion, it wouldn’t make sense. A good example would be how they cite that “tank synergy” would improve the complexity of the game, but it can very easily devolve into double shield being way too strong, and double shield is not really all that complex. It’s simply rotating shield health cooldowns. To be fair, those are things we can try to tweak/balance, but it might lead to a loss of hero identity. If we fix double shield by lowering shield health, not only does it feel like tanks can’t really do their damage mitigation role, but heroes like sig having a shield health of like 400 would make it an almost irrelevant part of his kit.
another piece of evidence I will cite, Freedo has mentioned before that he liked 2cp assault during the 6v6 era. While he’s obvious not advocating for all of overwatch to be exclusively “poke at the choke” and cycle cooldowns, he didn’t find it to be intolerable either. He has always been ok with the game being a bit less arena-shooter.
I think it’s just a bit reactionary to say Freedo is going all “revisionist history,” although I certainly wasn’t expecting a video like this to come out. To reiterate, I appreciate a willingness to change one’s outlook or overall stance/position on a topic. And his talking points haven’t changed. It’s not revisionist to say he’s always wanted hero bans, because that is something he’s always asked for.
Also one more thing to note: we aren’t always beholden to everything we say always and forever. Opinions are allowed to change, and we don’t need to get up in arms about him refining his opinion a bit more, at least for right now.
Yeah I agree with just about everything he said. Making OW an Esport has failed. Hard fact with OWL being gone now. If they're trying to compete at the party game level 6v6 will be better. Even if I personally liked 5v5 way way more. But competitively it's a mess. Tank synergy will always be a problem and players are too dumb to do anything about it. He's fighting Rein Zar almost the entire time here. Literally the freest and most boring character duo to play against. Being able to ban rein or zar will fix that and allow it to be more chaotic and less pressure individually but will keep at bay the obnoxious synergy the biggest flaw with the game. I'll still hope they stick with 5v5 but if they go back to 6v6 because of player demand it'll be a crime if they argue it's competitive but won't give us bans.
Marvel Rivals made me realize overwatch NEEDS hero bans for competitive viability. It makes competitive far more tolerable, and keeps oppressive metas from taking over.
Only in high levels of play tho
@@cbaileychamp thats where it matters. If youre bonze its not bcs bastion or Hela are op. Its bcs you dont understand the basics of the game.
It was also just really fun at EWC as an esports enjoyer. Sometimes with a super strong meta, you just swap one hero for another and the meta doesn't change much, but it's fun.
@@cbaileychamp low elo cant abuse OP meta picks lol
@@baileyskatesagreed Playing Hawkeye doesn’t mean much if you hit 2 out of every ten shots lol. Diamond is the perfect place for Bans. Same for widow in overwatch
I was very much a 6v6 skeptic too, but this playtest actually pleasently surprised me, and I've been having WAY more fun than I ever expected, and I get what the 6v6 enthusiasts were saying now. With all that said, there's still issues with it and it's not a magical silver bullet. I think it should be brought back as a SEPERATE mode. Like, why have OR when you can have AND? Then let the community play whatever they prefer. I actually personally like both now.
I think replacing 5v5 entirely would be a major mistake, especially given that a lot of the people that were screaming for 6v6 have already gone to Rivals. Overwatch is the only game where 5v5 exists, so kicking out the players who enjoy that would likely kill the game entirely. But if they add it as a seperate mode and then also add hero bans like you say, things will be looking very healthy for the future of the game.
I think the next six months and how Blizzard responds to Rivals is going to be critical for Overwatch's future. I'm crossing my fingers that things go well, because I love this game. Rivals is fun and all, but it's pretty obvious to me a lot of that is just the honeymoon phase. When you actually look at the fundamentals of what the game does, it has pretty much all the same issues that Overwatch does. People are just too blinded right now by the shiny new game effect and the fact that everyone is still learning the heroes and figuring out the meta to realise that.
That's why Rivals can't replace Overwatch for me at least, but it is a fun game to play when I want to play a hero shooter but also want a break from Overwatch. And I certainly welcome the competition, and we're already seeing Blizzard loosening up a little with the monetisation by giving away a bunch of free skins that were going to be shop skins, so that's really good for the game too, and I hope that continues.
I don't understand why you can't have a comp mode for both. There are games 10 years older than OW that were able to pull this off in the 2010s, and those games didn't have no where near the player pool as OW.
I prefer 6v6 but I agree they should keep both modes. I haven't seen any compelling reason against it. The 5v5 "muh queue times" argument suggests that splitting the player base doesn't matter 5v5 will always have good queue times no matter how few people queue up for it because of 1:2:2
They should scrap 5v5 open queue its absolutely horrible with raid boss solo tank balancing, make open queue 6v6
As someone who has played since day 1 of OW1 closed beta, Overwatch is currently, and finally, the game I've always wanted it to be (for the most part). I've always wanted it to be more balanced, more sweaty, more competitive, and more ability for individual play making. The problem is that it's just all too late. I still play, but I'm about to be 34 years old. I don't have it in me to grind and take it as seriously as I used to. There was a time when I was a nuts hitscan player. Like, REALLY good. I took the game way too seriously and grinded sooooooo hard to get that good. And I always thought how much more I would dominate if the game was structured like it is now. They just took too long, and now I'm old and can't be bothered with grinding to be that good anymore. Or even really care as much as I used to about the game. Even though I'll always love OW. I don't want to see it move away from where I've always dreamed the game would be. But also, I don't know that I care enough at all about it anymore. I still play, but I'll never be as good as I once was or take it as seriously as I once did. All of this is to say that I don't know how I feel about all of it anymore, but I think I just want to see the game succeed beyond me at this point. Whatever that looks like.
6v6 feels like an actual game ngl 5v5 was basically deathmatch with 2 raidbosses running around you can kill tanks again,widow is more divable (should put the hp back to how it was ngl)and the other snipers can't get away with as much bullshit as before even with a mercy pocket
See this comment right here is precisely why I DISLIKE the 6v6 argument and can't take it seriously.
Some of yall out here calling tanks raid bosses and saying how they can die now, and yet I've heard the exact opposite from others to argue for 6v6, that playing tank is miserable because the entire enemy team is shooting at you and you just melt.
Which is it? Are tanks boss-level power who never die, or are they made of glass and get blown to pieces in 2 seconds?
I understand both can happen, but the arguments I always hear are talking about how much it's one or the other. Both can't be equally prevalent.
@@Wraice619 its because both are true in a way.
ngl
@@Wraice619That depends if you're getting countered
@@Wraice619both are true in a way. But 5v5 has the solid problem of both of those statements being true at all times. 6v6 makes neither of those statements true and it’s easier to balance. 6v6 is simply just the better game. Factual. U can like 5v5 more, that’s fine. But there is no way to fix the tank problem in 5v5. 6v6 isn’t “perfect” but it will always be leagues better just from the tank issue being eliminated
So, are 6V6ers still flat earthers Freedo?
Of course! but they throw better parties.
Nice @@YourOverwatch
@@YourOverwatchyou completed the Theory of Reasoned Action technology acceptance model
This level of irony is diabolical. Not even a crappy heartless "I'm sorry", either. This is how to cultivate badwill 101.
@@yukioacumora4430 how butthurt does someone have to be to call people who enjoy a videogame differently 'flat earthers'
6v6 is wayyyyyy more fun to play with friends than 5v5. Especially since we don't have to figure out what to do when a sixth dude jumps online.
Like grinch accepting and embracing christmas
This vid has the conflicting tone of "Hate to say I told you so" and "I admit it, you were right."
Observing, not complaining - it was a fun watch.
yes, a very nuanced video that will fly over many heads
Fredo is a narcissist he will never admit he was wrong
I don't play this game anymore, but this video is just gonna go over everyone's heads. People would rather win an argument than win their games.
People gotta realize that the average player doesn't care to have a meaningful discussion hence all the flaming going on lol. Im a 6v6er but obviously understand the downsides (Which WILL happen) Yes there will be broken comps. Yes space will be more contested
I can’t even read these comments anymore man why are y’all so mean, he’s saying what he enjoys about the game and of course his opinion is gonna change as what he enjoys about it changes. Y’all are just haters. I don’t agree with everything freedo says but I’m not a jerk about it
he was a jerk to 6v6ers dx
He's literally bald
He was a jerk to 6v6ers. DESERVES IT
Reap what you sow, but at the same time I feel you. Some of these are just unnecessarily downright nasty. A bit of ironic sarcasm and "we told you so" is warranted, but not some of the shit I'm seeing in this short of a period.
Because he was an asshole to anybody who wanted 6v6 and now he's doing a full reversal and not even apologizing for being a jackass
videos like these make me appreciate marvel rivals so much people trash talked me for saying competitive gaming is ruining overwatch in OW 1 but not only did it actively delete OW 1 it killed it and gave us one of the worst sequels of all time LOL. gaming is about FUN first, hopefully overwatch learns this lesson, not that i care since i have an alternative
Freedo is an S tier baiter and I love it so much! The amount of engagement without watching the vid is astonishing
At this point I think he's just grifting. He contradicts himself all the damn time or is just incorrect. It's ok to like one or the other but the lying is insane.
@MrBreakdownx where tho. He's always said he likes the synergies bur 5v5 will produce a more balanced game. He's always said he liked the value he can get in a 6v6 game bc it's easy. All he does in this video is break down clips as they happened and talk about the drawbacks of the mode. As someone who loved his 5v5 takes a ton, the thumbnail and title threw me for a loop, but the content is just classic Freedo
@@dusergaming7252 How is people being in the spawn room counter swapping a more balanced game. How is it more freedom? It's like he becomes willing fully ignorant when it benefits his argument.
@@MrBreakdownx you just admitted you don't know what "balanced" means. Being able to 1 to 1 counter every hero with another (in the same role) is the definition of balanced (all things being equal). The opposite would be never needing to counter/swap because 1 hero pick is so obviously better than the rest (launch Brig).
This isn't Halo, there's no even-starts. Unique hero abilities will always have some form of counters. In order to balance those counters, they need to have equal strength. When you successfully balance them, you arrive at being able to pick 1 hero to counter another. The solve for this is hero picks/bans or hero drafting.
@@Shzl47 1 that's not balance
2 it's not fun
Go off I guess have fun in the spawn room
He posted a video a month ago called “WHY 6v6 IS DOOMED TO FAIL”. Make up your mind! Dude is just going with what everyone is saying now
Normal free-thinking people love and appreciate Freedo. He gives so much to the community and people just look for shit to hate and complain about.
Aye. He's been solid for a long time. Haven't always agreed with his takes but so what.
I wish he hadn't done that Porsche glaze vid a while back. It really hurt his rep.
There's plenty reason to appreciate his presence; a lot of interesting and thought out genuine takes, saying everybody should be loving freedo is massive glaze and narrow sighted. There is plenty reason "free-thinking" or not to not vibe with the dude and the way he portrays himself in videos
@@megamecha100He is smarmy, but kinda has the right to be imo
"Anyone who doesn't think like I do on this topic is wrong by definition." -you
@@exart8409 I don't think that really helps in convincing anybody besides the people who already agree with you, nobody wants to listen to a guy/ respect a guy that blatantly disrespects them and talks down to them. Also with his arguments often being randomly contradictory in the same video, randomly emotionally charged, randomly out of touch, I would be hard pressed personally to say "he has the right to be"
Queue times is all the data one needs to know which format the community prefers. All the rest of that subjective shit doesn't mean shit if you can't get enough players who actually want to play the game.
there is nothing subjective about this. gold take
Queue times has nothing to do with what the community prefers. It's all about which roles players prefer to play. In most games, tank sees the least amount of play across communities so queue times becoming weird is something any game like this can predict will happen 100%. This also happens because of the move to 2-2-2. In Open Queue, this wasn't an issue because the match maker was not factoring in role preferences.
Queue times can be impacted by a variety of factors.
- Regular updates to the game
- IF the game is free to play or requires payment
- How old the game is
- If the community feels respected.
Now apply that to OW1 and OW2 and you shouldn't be surprised that Marvel Rivals is doing well. If you don't take any of these critical factors into account, then you're setting yourself up for potential failure.
I first mained Tank then Damage in the course of Overwatch 1's lifespan, but have since started LOVING Support with 5v5 because there's so much more room to use my hero than just heal botting. It created a really balanced style of multitasking that felt rewarding and skillful to manage. There's much more freedom than before (for all roles in at least one way or another) so it's hard to say if I miss 6v6. The only thing I miss are tank ult combos, really.
It took me two games in 6v6 mode to remember why I hated it: on DPS shooting shields or having matrix in my face 24/7, and on support feeling powerless or heal botting. 5v5 is so much better, it's not even close. Plus, solo tanking on Hazard is fun af
For you, maybe.
The patch they released for the 6v6 test is one of the worst patches of all time btw if the patch wasn't horrendous it would be much better
As a support player, supports being vulnerable is great thing. Imo a support shouldn't be able to sustain everything and be able to duel anything that's not a tank.
@@kims4149 Why not? On DPS I play a lot of flankers and like the idea that I get to duel the supports. To me, that’s way more enjoyable than trying to get a pick on a helpless support when no one is there to protect them.
I also prefer it from the support POV when I’m playing Ana I don’t have to rely on my tank to always peel for me if it’s just one DPS diving me.
If samito ever met u he would call you a duck for having a Brain and I would agree with it
My real take away from 6v6 and the patch is that they should never have tried to balance the game for the top end players. If the top players find one meta and only play that then let them. If they get tired and leave, that's fine, it's 1% of the player base. Make the 99% happy.
yeah but the top 1% buy every single skin that comes out to advertise to their stream watchers so they can buy more overpriced skins.
@@skrrrtsusman3450 not really, the more ''lore'' and ''character'' engaged playerbase actually tends to play on metal Ranks. There''s way more Mercys on Gold/Plat than in Master/GM, and about the same proportion will buy the skins.
4:37 "Variety and individuality, even if it causes you to lose really badly, should be prioritized" I've heard you make similar comments in the past, and I think I'm really struggling to understand what you mean. Players WON"T play with variety and individuality if it causes you to lose really badly. An unbalanced game doens't look like a zany free-for-all of random stuff, it looks like an exact mirror match of the exact same heroes, every game mode, every map, no matter what. It looks like a full year of GOATs on the ladder. I am left entirely puzzled when you seem to be calling for that, but also clearly don't want that.
“Variety” is a crucial word here to make sure you don’t misconstrue it the way you did. Variety means the game is balanced in such a way that there are infrequent mirror matches.
@@KKJazz any game with infrequent mirror matches is a game that is incredibly well balanced where a huge number of the hero roster is competitively viable. I think what Freedo is attempting to say (though I don't know that I've heard him clearly express it in this way) is that the Overwatch devs have to be willing to aggressively nerf keystone heroes in a stagnant meta; even if it means making those specific 2 or 3 heroes temporarily unviable. Vocally requesting a less balanced game is a TERRIBLE and confusing way to express that, becaue the rest of the entire hero roster still needs to be very well balanced for nerfing those meta keystone heroes to make any difference. Hero bans doens't fix this problem, but it DOES dramtically increase the time it takes for the player base to "solve" a meta, which is far preferable, as it causes the period of meta instability/variety between balance patches to be significantly extended.
Hey Freedo, always been a fan of your content, felt like giving you a bit of well intentioned feedback.
Your last idk 5 to 10 videos have been continuously escalating in hostility to your public, which I guess is warranted as every video has a lot of hate in the comments, but it's coming to a point where it is sounding less and less like banter and sometimes, as straight up bitching.
I think it's not healthy for your content and it's not healthy for you. Please don't lose sight of what makes your content fun and enjoyable for the sake of saying "I told you so" repeatedly to a public that won't listen be it true or not.
Or rather, is this the kind of content you WANT to make? Sometimes it's easy to lose track of why we're doing things.
Cheers, have a nice holiday!
I dont understand why Freedo is talking about what he is. 6v6 feels more tactical and favors the better team. but it also takes away carry potential? It doesnt make sanse, 6v6 has less space per person, the carries occupy more space on tank, are more lethal on dps, and heal/save more on support
After watching the whole video I feel that I don’t want 6v6. You described so many downsides of it, and didn’t even touch queue times (which is major factor why we got 5v5). Not convinced.
Freedo has no chill. Watch his 6v6 flat earth vid. It’s hilarious after watching this.
even 5v5 would benefit bans, it's just bans allow for even in awful metas for diverse matches, it essentially helps both teams to have more immediate influence that match. I am for 6v6 but either way in ranked bans are very necessary. Also im just used to being easier to beam down in 5v5 as tank since i mostly play OQ
I think it's ok for freedo to talk about all the lovely intricate aspects of why "6v6 is more fun than 5v5" but imma be real. My memory of Overwatch 1 and 6v6 wasn't so rosy. It was filled with abusive comms, people who thought playing the meta was the only way to play Overwatch and team mates who refused under all circumstances to wait for the team to respawn or 'synergize'. The game forced you to strategize and work as a team to accomplish an objective. But what I have learned in all my time playing overwatch is well trying to get a bunch of bronze/silver players to create adaptive strategies happens once in a blue moon. At least with 5v5 you will get some nutty individual who'll make one play and suddenly before you know it you aren't going to lose with 0 ticks on the first point.
And in 5v5 instead of using team strata they giga buffed tanks that walked through lower rank lobbies with ease. It goes both ways, you complain about people not working together but the other side is players complaining about tanks having too much power.
Wah wah
@Montrash Sounds like a 6v6er. I get that yalls brains don't function at full capacity, but he has a point. Forcing a mode that is more reliant on synergy, in a game where the majority of players are running solo or duo and doing their own thing, is a massive issue. It's one we put up with for years, and now everyone wants it back.
@@Wraice619 What about the people who play WOW, or LOL, most players play solo but you have to play as a team for the most part from what I know to make plays and win the games. It's no different to Overwatch. Saying team work is a downside is a skill issue take and it lowers the skill ceiling dramatically. 6v6 was abandoned and never given the same love that 5v5 has been given so there's no point arguing that. It's a fact that 5v5 has been supported better by the devs than 6v6 ever was, can't argue with that.
You sound like the delusional one buddy. Forcing mafia boss tanks into the game is very unhealthy.
I'm a casual player. Played OW for about 2.5k hours and OW2 for about 500 hours. I stoped playing because i just felt OW2 was not as fun as OW. I tried 6v6 when it came out and from the very first match i played, the game was fun again. And thats my only reason to wanna play a game. Fun is always better.
Do we have way too many off tanks now? Like Mauga, Junkerqueen, Doomfist, Is ramatra a main tank, is Orisa a main tank? Idk Maybe roadhog will do better if he had his changes reverted back so he can have his heal mechanic and pig pen back, and dmg reduction during heal he might be better as main tank maybe.
Or maybe give Junkerqueen more survivability so she can maybe be a main tank by drawing attention and healing passively during the fight.
Or even sense we got whole another player on the field how about we take out the dps passive and see if tanks pop at the same speed cause I think they will still die with or without that dps passive.
@Your Overwatch ,Can we get a roadmap on when you’ll change your channel name to Your Marvel Rivals and keep the same style and music for your intro?
This has sold me on 5v5
48:56 This is exactly how I felt when playing Widowmaker in 6v6. I felt very little pressure on me because there was so much front line brawling going on. Also it's very easy to kill tanks as Widow because of the headshot damage reduction being removed, and them having lower health now.
Didn't you say 5v5 was better for the longest time? Just a little disappointed at how much you still defend this dumpster fire
This is priceless
He spent the weekend grinding it... he changed his mind, the way you say it in ypur comment is if he said it set and stone... people can change their mind my guy
He more specifiaclly would say 5v5 is more balanced which may be better for the game which is a fairly logical take. But now he just wants to enjoy Overwatch in this less balanced format if it can reach higher levels of fun occasionally. His acual perfect form of Overwatch was always 6v6 but with hero bans to help control how imbalanced it can be.
@@Vidilian This is exactly my take as well, and I haven't even played the 6v6 mode as much as Freedo probably has.
I think in a perfect world, as a competitive esport, 5v5 OW is more balanced, easier to watch and play and understand, and just overall probably better. But that's only if the goal is to make a competitive game.
But playing Rivals, and now this 6v6 mode, has sort of opened my eyes to how deep in the competitive hole OW has gone. Over the past 8 years, the community has forced the devs to "balance" all of the fun out of this game. Rivals is popping off right now I think precisely because it's so wild and unbalanced and chaotic and FUN.
And I think this 6v6 mode being similarly unbalanced has made it really fun for me, moreso than the regular 5v5 mode. Queue times will still be a major issue, but I think this game needs to put the hard brakes on being a super competitive game.
I don't care anymore if things are balanced. I just want to have fun. And while I was a 5v5er before, I've had the fun now, and I'm here for it.
@@dewinmartinez7222this dude went from “Clearly you didn’t watch the whole video” on my comment to “Hey man, he changed his mind, so what… 😢” grovel at the feet of your king Freedo LMAO this is hilarious
First off, its incredibly disingenuous to talk about 6v6 like its Splatoons 2. Your constant caveats about how 6v6 will be broken forever, has no competitive credibility, and frankly the belittling of the community on how they don't understand anything they are asking for is so unpalatable.
11:55 Freedo, just stop. That's like saying 2v2 basketball is more competitive than 5v5 basketball cause there lies more responsibility on each player to preform skillfully. EVEN IF its true that 2v2 basketball is "more competitive", in some arbitrary, philosophical, sense, we still don't value it as such.
1v1 Overwatch is even more competitive than 5v5 or 6v6. See how dumb that sounds, Freedo?
Lets see if this one gets deleted too lmfao.
As someone who is kind of neutral in this debate, I dislike how passive-aggressive he is about everything
Dude, you need to look up his 6v6 Flat Earth vid. He posted some petty comments that came right out of Ben Shapiro’s comeback book
I think part of it is because he’s been crucified for being 5v5 in the past, and a lot of people made fun of/came after him for a lot of his takes, and dismissed him for them. I don’t always agree with him but I think a little bit of attitude is justified for how he’s been treated
@@aidanhenderson6222 I've been watching his content since the OW1 days and this trend of him being pretentious started way before the 5v5 6v6 situation.
@@Extremeredfox 2018, once the OWL got big and he started talking to higher ups
This isn't the channel for you
Agree with all your points and I'm worried and curious to see where the game goes with this.
What do you think about the aftershocks of the season 9 changes? I'm sort of in the middle on this issue. But I'm curious what your take is. You didn't address it in the video, so I'm curious, does it not change anything?
I too am torn. It certainly made projectiles, who I play, far more consistent for me - but didn't change the gap vs hitscans so much at the higher tiers. Tanks benefit the least and in fact get hit more easily, was a huge oversight (remember they were exploding in those first weeks). This season they nerfed down a shade the hit boxes again... idk. It's not a make or break issue for me. Kinda a nothing burger for me this point but I err on the side of it probably improving more things than it hurts. If Venture released without them I think gp gets worse. Overall ttk is slightly longer and that's probably fine.
I'll always respect a man who dares to challenge his own beliefs. Whether you stood with 5v5 or now prefer 6v6. I think you're one of the few content creators who looks at the game with that kind of honesty. I also believe you are one of, if not the most passionate creator for Overwatch. Your experience with the game and your striving to see it succeed is something very few others can match. I hope a lot of people can see that now.
At this point hes arguing in bad faith. A lot of his points contradict one another or is based on incomplete evidence. He super cherry picks his argument then overkills in gaslighting, acting as if there aren't people actually paying attention. And if you bring up his contradictions, he pompously dismisses you as being too stupid to understand.
I went back to play recently and I like it again for some reason
Having endlessly more fun
Even with the terrible balance patch 6v6 still feels sooooo much better
video felt too antagonistic for my tastes but I appreciate the work you put into it and the fact that you show the cons of 6v6 as well as the bros. I may have moved on to Marvel Rivals but still. Liked.
Exactly. I can’t stand him anymore. He’s just a contrarian
Ahhhh.....finally. 6v6=more crazy bullshit. That's what was missing from 5v5. The biggest problem I had with 5v5 was that I am not a particularly good arena shooter player. However, I am a much better positional player and better at communicating. In 5v5, those matter a lot less. Hopefully we can go back to the glory days and revive OW with the grand return of 6v6 and a more zany, moba style.
“6v6 is Overwatch Flat Earth” a 50 minute video where Freedo calls everyone an idiot
Great video and I absolutely appreciate the time you put into it
I cant trust someone who cant admit they were wrong.
Bro csnt even at least say sorry either oh my g o d
If you bothered to watch the full video, he's almost saying 6v6 is better facetiously. He's more saying 6v6 is more fun because it's alot less balanced, same as marvel rivals. Try watching the full video instead of reading the title of the vid before commenting lol.
he is admitting he was wrong? Did you not watch the video, see the thumbnail or read the title?
He's a 6v6 flat earther now 😂
gosh ppl like u r unbearable
Your beef with that Genji around the 12-14 minute mark is so fun to watch.
Ngl he didn't deserve my attitude at all, I just randomly decided to make it personal.
I’m all for balancing less around pros and more around casuals and 6v6 is my game but I think taking this first week as gospel is misguided there’s a mix of sketchy balance and people who have no idea how to play 6v6 so match up and engagement knowledge isn’t there. I’ve seen some goated ball, lifeweavers and queen players because they fulfil their roll and don’t engage on the enemies terms. Some of what you’ve compared is akin to coughing baby and nuclear bomb some players especially OW1 veterans have got the feel of 6v6 quicker while other are still face tanking as you do in 5v5
Coughing baby 🤣🤣🤣
I just don’t see what other people are saying. I’m Top 500 support and tank and I can do as much damage on support as before, and I don’t feel as hunted as before. It’s just a matter on if it’s a coordinated push towards the supports. It’s more nuanced than that but my experience has been support has been different to play, you just have more to do which is a test of skill. On tank, there’s way more to do, and you can focus on your own gameplay more than having to do everything.
You CAVED??? Nahhh I thought you’d stand your 5v5 ground
Edit: For future deniers, just watch the vid. Easy
Edit 2: One more thing before I go back to watching Jerma vids, bad players =/= 5v5 is better. Giving examples of people playing bad in 6v6 doesn’t justify caving in and saying “6v6 is much more strategic and more fun than 5v5.” Freedo said it, not me. Bye!
He didn't though?
@@peeks71651:24 “I think 6v6 is more fun objectively” after like 2 years of saying 5v5 was better. If that isn’t caving, idk what is. Idc about this argument tbh, it’s just the way he swapped SO quickly.
The video is more than 60 min long, you already saw the entire video ?
@@eggur0ll2895v5 is more balanced and "better" in a comp setting.
6v6 is just more fun tho
He never stood on it being 5v5. You clearly did not watch or listen to what he was saying. It was always a balance issue. And 6v6 is far more unbalanced. You are one of those players that has helped ruin the game by not understanding what makes it good.
6v6 in OW2 has been the most fun Ive had in OW2 since the cracks in 5v5 started showing. 6v6 is more fun, chaotic, skillful, and more skill expressive in my opinion. I find all roles highly enjoyable in 6v6 (I consistently play all roles and majority of the roster). When it comes to tanks them being a mix of the more brawl style of OW2 with OW1 balancing has made the role so much more enjoyable for me (I’m a tank synergy enjoyer). Tank in 5v5 was overall a miserable experience with counterwatch. I also disagree with your opinion on supports being miserable to play, I find them more thrilling to play with the higher micromanaging. Though for a new player to support I can see why it would be off putting as the role can be stressful in 6v6. DPS is just DPS nothing really changed there imo. I also find counter picking in 6v6 less annoying than in 5v5 but that’s just me. About hero bans I think in 6v6 it’s a good idea for diamond and above, but overall it’s something I personally won’t lose sleep over. I also like how 6v6 is more team based, which is what overwatch was about. Without communication you will lose. As a player since 2017 I really really hope we go back to 6v6 it just feels right.
Why does this video need to be 1 hr long - your title says one thing but your tone and points flip back and forth many times. Pre-12 minutes you're saying how 5v5 is better game design wise, but you want it to go to 6v6? wtf
Because Freedo has no chill. He feels the need to control the narrative. Watch his 6v6 flat earth vid. It’s hilarious after watching this.
I also wanna say I think it’s a skill in itself to bring order to chaos . Cause a battle should feel chaotic but being able to spot those openings in 6v6 with everything going on feels good imo . Some people may hate it I love it personally 😂
LMAO AND YOU CALLED 6V6 ENJOYERS FLAT EARTHERS TOO. ABSOLUTELY PRICELESS, HOLY.
Do you just read the title and base your entire take on it?
I’m like 5mins and he’s still criticizing Blizzard and 6v6.
His position has always been that he liked playing 6v6, but people just ignore the negatives and yes, that they have flat earther brains.
TikTok attention spans are crazy.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA FREEDO LOOKIN' DUMMY
@@why8642it's ironic because the same people butthurt about being called flat earthers for not engaging with reality are, once again, not engaging with reality and spamming their reaction to a video title, proving the label was correct the whole time.
@@Nyxtia many such cases I’m afraid 🤷
Yo bro get help. Freedo has done more for this game than you ever will.
Freedo the clown, available for children's parties.
Watch his 6v6 flat earth vid. It’s hilarious after watching this.
Comes from 5 v 5 glazer. What a narco.
Remember when he called the community 6v6 flat earthers?
This is good news, but Blizzard has done nothing by destroy my trust with Overwatch over the years. I still don't think I'll ever be coming back to the game.
this was a literally yap fest to avoid saying you were wrong
Literally. Can't take this seriously anymore. To act like more complex gameplay due to synergies, ult economy etc. makes the game less competitive is so goofy. Casual players greatly benefitted from 5v5, and now they're sobbing in the corner because you actually have to manage your cooldowns to not get deleted as a tank.
A whole lot of yapping. Could've just made a video on hero bans again and left it at that, because that's the main thing 6v6 needs, while 5v5 can NEVER work.
Obviously you didn't watch the video, and didn't watch all the past videos. Or perhaps you watched but didn't listen as you were slamming your keys to type. Freedo said the same things the whole time. He, in many many videos that you can go and watch, said that he preferred 6v6 and it was what he was best at. What exactly was he wrong about? The queue times question hasn't been answered yet. A QP test doesn't prove anything in the long run. I'm confused why there are so many immature people on here that feel the need to cowardly attack Freedo who is providing amazing content and real insight into this game that he obviously loves.
Except it wasn’t really like at all that. Every video he’s made on the topic has been warning people about the downsides of 6v6 in a competitive sense. Since now one wants to listen to downsides and people think it will be great again, he’s saying 6v6 with hero bans would be great. In his mind he isn’t wrong otherwise he’d make a video saying there is no changes needed outside of balance fixes to tanks in 6v6.
You should have seen his tweets, legit no one said he was right. Bro since day 1 I said 5v5 felt horrible. I gave it a chance. And it’s still horrible
@@changeittowumbo8399 lmao. I didn’t know that. That’s unreal holy fuck. That is a big change up since he is say he was cautiously optimistic and made a whole fuck ton of videos early on in OW2 as to why 5v5 is probably better overall.
Wow people still bootlicking a game that lied to them about the premise of OW2 and knew about it for a year but didn’t tell the fans. Yh man let’s reward these devs !
For the "how is knowing the right tank line to win on a map a skill?" comment, it's the same logic as winning in chess. You could use the same logic to say "I picked up a piece of plastic, moved it to the right square and won guys. How is that difficult?" But knowing which piece to use, in which order, and choke out all an opponents options before they recognized what your doing *is the skill we are all talking about here.*
Someone with 10,000 hours experience may not notice this anymore, but most people don't have every ability interaction in the game memorized to do these calculations 3 seconds after pushing tab. Most people have to read the game *in real time,* and try to find a way to make an impact with the handful of characters they know how to play. THAT is the skill. Grandmasters (in chess or Overwatch) have the experience to come with that level of skill by default, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a skill. I think this is just a case of being out of touch with the common man. A real "let them eat cake" take on gaming.
Comparing Rock paper scissors hero picks to chess is a bit bold.
@@YourOverwatchI think you missed his point. The fact you are able to reduce the complexity of this game down to "rock, paper, scissors" shows that you have a extremely high level of understanding of the game where the majority player base does not. You even pointed this out when you talked about the other player trying to counter pick your Ram as Zarya - they do not know enough about the game to successfully play rock, paper, scissors.
So for 99% of players this game (6v6 version especially) is like 4D chess. 5v5 is like checkers in comparison. You go and shoot things and they die - straightforward and simple, but pretty boring at the end of the day.
ii thought this was just gonna be a rant about 6v6 and a staunch 5v5 defense. I was severley mistaken and i now agree with your position. Trying to balance it foreveryone was never going to work. Having bans and advocating for 6v6 as a "healthier" mode sounds very reasonable
great work freedo
Allot of sarcasim in this video by freedo
6V6 'enjoyers' are committing criminal levels of self-gaslighting & confirmation biasing. This player base does not understand what they are asking for. Flats and Samito do not speak for the average player experience
The irony is that you just engaged in gas lighting and confirmation bias with this post.
@@ExtremeredfoxI just watch and laugh at anyone who thinks OW as an IP is anything more than a parasite sucking money
3:56 This is completely contradictory and makes absolutely no sense🤦♂️ There is more variety because there are more viable options in any given situation
You can have infinite options but only a small subset be *competitively viable.
@ I see what you mean but I would argue that in 6v6 there are more competitively viable options in any given situation for both hero picks and decision making
28:00 this is the reason why the devs wanted 5v5, besides faster queue times. You’re able to play whatever you want, and make it work, even if you’re at an inherent disadvantage. In 6v6, it just doesn’t work like that. If I want to play a certain tank in 5v5, I can just completely avoid the other tank if it’s a bad match up and I can be extremely successful at it. It’s a much more individual expression game than the team 6v6 game.
But nah samito says this is non valid he said it never was a problem ppl are just bad at what they do in 6v6 and also he was right coz Blizz could’ve dealt with this issue but they said nah coz they busy making OW2 pve which never got to be
Liked and comment just because of the INSANE work that went into this video. I have watched the group up podcast in a long time. That said the next time you and Samito talk 6v6 it will be must watch content!
As another grizzled veteran of OW1 and now OW2, I gotta say this 6v6 experiment has made me personally enjoy the game again so much more now. I'm glad Blizzard is letting people first experience for themselves how atrocious open queue used to be with 5/6 DPS picks, then 6v6 with role queue. 5v5 definitely had some upsides like not having those 13 minute DPS queues, but truthfully I found the 5v5 game to not capture what made Overwatch fun in the first place. It feels too deathmatchy and almost like the classes are somewhat irrelevant, with supports sometimes having more dps impact than DPS themselves, or Tanks basically being giant DPS with cc abilities. There's some tank combinations with the newer 5v5 style tanks in these new 6v6 matches that could definitely be super oppressive, but overall I think the tank synergy was one of the most exciting parts of OW. I'm sure people will complain about queue times and double shield or other stagnant metas like in the past if 6v6 goes forward, but 6v6 allows for more strategic play and I enjoy playing all 3 roles more in 6v6 than 5v5. Supps get a little more breathing room and can focus on their abilities and healing as well as still impact with damage, rather than basically needing to duel DPS the entire game like in 5v5. Not really sure which is "better" tbh but I just love having that old OW magic back with 6v6 lol
Data point: queue times on Xbox are terrible for DPS because the already small population of tank players are split playing 5v5 and 6v6. So that leaves long dps queues in both. Support queues are about half of the dps queues. Tank queues on both are instant
Agree with most of your analysis in this video, and that’s why I want to remain in 5v5.
We already complain about “cosmetic DPS”. Do we really want more damage mitigation and lane control when we already say DPS is struggling? I don’t
Dude, have a break=) Merry Xmass=) Such a good video, and great points too. Shame that nobody will listen as allways... But still i apreciate the work you put in this so much, man. And in the end that's the only thing any reasonable man coud do.
I genuinely quit this game if 6v6 replaced 5v5 in any meaningful form. I liked being individually impactful. If they cater to a bunch of people who hate the game anyways, I'd be disappointed.
Then play an fps, if you don't want to play a team game, don't
Bye
C ya. You won’t be missed
Later
Paladins my guy, 5v5 and fights can either be team won or solo carry
As a certified hater I'm glad to see you finally coming around lol. I hope they will keep both modes in the game (5v5 and 6v6) and I'm open to bans as well for competitive
Bro doesnt even address the fact that he went so hard for 5v5. Just casually roots for 6v6 like he had this whole time XD
I mean he hasn’t changed his stance. Like where in 5v5 was there a goats comp that dominated the game for years and made the rest of the roster unplayable? This whole time he was just actively trying to remind everyone that 6v6 is flawed. Which it is. It’s just a matter of what trade offs do you prefer.
This is not a freedo rooting for 6v6 video fam. What are you talking about. This is more of a your gonna get what you asked for even though you didn't actually want it btw hero bans please video lol
He begrudgingly argues the "cons" but now knows that 6v6 is the answer. Just say you were wrong.
You obviously didn't finish watching the video
That's what makes me laugh my ass off, freedo have been jumping to the moon and back about how great 5v5 is and how 6v6 was too bad. Now that Rivals is out and it's perfected the 6v6 formula, suddenly now 6v6 is and what should have been the proper format for OW. As if these losers haven't been championing for 5v5 for 2+ years lmao
I think my main takeaway from the 6v6 test is that it's less fun to solo play. But so much more fun and rewarding to play in groups because the team play is so much more important.
Ain't no way bro made 1hr vid on 6v6
Bro be unlimited yapping not to admit he was wrong. LMFAO
@@rudyramirez125you really want everybody to put their head down in unison? Let ppl be cautious about a game wide change like this, bro been putting what he sees as reasonable warnings, just let it be and stop bitching abt it lol
My experiences in 5v5 and the new 6v6 test have been very similar, but the biggest difference is that not having supertanks is great
This game is stuck in time, man, lmfao. OW2 was a mistake and it's fun to see them reverting everything back to OW1. Also...bans? Brother, they're barely testing out 6v6...it'll be another 2 years until they test a ban system. BUT BUY OUR COLLAB SKINS, PLEASE!
As someone who mains DPS/Support in Comp and plays a decent amount of Tank in QP, I'd rather keep the tolerable queue times, open lanes and rewarding FPS mechanics of 5v5, thank you very much. I'm not opposed to creating a 6v6 competitive mode, and I'd probably even play it a fair bit. Once the queue times start getting too long, though, people will naturally stream back to 5v5 (and based on feedback I've seen online, Tank mains seem pretty evenly split on which mode they prefer, making this all but inevitable).
You said that 6v6 is objectively more fun, but the clips you spent 2/3 of the video analyzing remind me why I only played OW1 for 6 months before moving on, even though I did enjoy many aspects of the game. I just don't find inexplicable chaos, arcane strategy and autobattler elements fun in what is ostensibly a competitive FPS. To me, 5v5 strikes that perfect balance between rewarding teamplay, cooldown management and mechanics, whereas you've demonstrated mechanics are often irrelevant to the outcome of games in 6v6.
For as much fun as people say they're having on Marvel Rivals, the last time I played I had 3 games in a row of people flaming each other for underperforming... in QP... 2 weeks after release. The game has plenty of tilting elements that are easy to overlook when you don't have any expectations for yourself or others, but these will become less and less tolerable as people learn how to play.
Honestly, I think it would be for the best if Rivals thrives as a casual experience while OW2 maintains its esports-focused balance philosophy. Once the smoke clears, we'll see which game is fundamentally better.
Damn. A lot of people are intentionally missing the points you’re making. You literally say @ 16:30 the reason for this video and shifting from trying to force balance into this game, whichever format, to enjoying it first should be blizzards primary objective after seeing the overall reaction to MR
Easy to agree with someone when they’re not being belligerent towards your view
Marvel Rivals is fun but the balance also makes it not fun. Its fun for people now but I don't see it lasting long. The burnout will hit and the frustrations will likely settle and bubble
The devs said they'd not do many nerfs though and would rather buff and I guess we can see how that goes. It'll probably be better to preserving the "fun" but I guess we'll just see
This. It's fun for a second, but it's just another flash in the pan like most things.
@GaymerXL im a little surprised it's lasted this long but I think some of it is anti overwatch people and the anti woke crowd shilling for the game hard right now while it's fresh.
@@Ramxenocit’s precisely that right now. Give it a couple of months and people will start realizing.
6v6 headbangers missing all the points in the video where Freedo says that it's actually worse than 5v5 in most respects
Your OW: shittalks on 6v6 only and actually defends 5v5
Samito: actually talks both pros and cons, honest takes, actually cares about overwatch, literally knows what would make ow great
One of the biggest problems people had was mauga. I feel he fits better in a 6v6 comp. It’s easier to shut him down and you actually have to have a brain to play him effectively in 6v6.
The problem with the decision to go back to 6v6 is that they gave me the taste of 5v5, which i prefer. And I don't want it to change
You are a strange specimen if you prefer 5v5
@@charliebartlett5768 Maybe it's because I don't play tank?
@@charliebartlett5768 I prefer it.
@@charliebartlett5768maybe you’re strange for calling other opinions just „strange“
The apology is not as loud as the disrespect. Tells me everything I need to know about u as a man
Ngl Samito has better take than this shit shittalking 6v6ers
Irony. I'm gonna go play rivals.
As a casual player and one of 6v6 fans the only thing which was needed for Overwatch 2 was 6v6 card in Quickplay section.
In terms of meta pick each hero needs always time to adjust but as soon as you get used to it, everything starts rolling. As said i had same experience with Hog, Junkerqueen and D,va.
Sometimes one ultimate can't be enough to break the enemy team. This depends what comp is it especially if Kiriko is on enemy team.
Speaking of tank players, i have played more then 50 matches only queue as a tank and i love it.
Devs need to choose what path they are gonna be taking for OW2, if they want to compete against Marvel Rivals then they will have to do return 6v6 not only in quickplay but also in rank which will also need 6v6 open queue. If the devs want to compete against all the other shooters like: CS2, Apex and Valorant - then devs will need to say that this is a test and that 6v6 won't be returning.
Overwatch classic mode had received a lot of praises for being fun and one of the reasons is because of not being balanced so aiming for the best balance patch will be impossible but this patch what they have done for 6v6 was clearly there best one.
So you now have the 6v6 crowd calling you out for all the shit youve talked, and the 5v5 crowd calling you a sellout.
Not sure what the play was here, but you've managed to piss off BOTH sides at the same time.
I used to have a lot of respect for your takes on this game. This one video nuked all of it.
You're allowed to change opinions, but if you're not gonna apologize to the crowd you shit on for so long, while also abandoning the other half of your audience, then that just comes across like youre trying to kill any goodwill you have with people.
Well said, friend. Perfectly encapsulates the situation
I mean the writing on the wall is pretty clear he was wrong. It’s a business decision going forward, he can’t keep looking like an idiot neckbeard
@Wraice619 my exact issue here as well. I'm willing to give him a chance to set a few things wring with somebody, any crowd, but if not then there's always more creators to give my ad watch time to lol
@@Wraice619 its like the dems finding out they were wrong all along and are not the majority rofl love it
Hero bans is a 100% must great take brotha! I can honestly play both games and enjoy both I genuinely believe both games will do great, overwatch can also listen to community more as well
I don't know how you think 6v6 is faster, it has benefits but it's significantly slower. Fights last longer, need to wait longer to regroup, and needing to get through 2 tanks means you spend more time just waiting for an opening instead of being proactive
tbh they're very similar in 'speed' however the cadence of gameplay can certainly be at a much higher tempo with two tanks cycling together. 5v5 you have to hold angles a lot more, 6v6 the real tank combos oppressively make space, forcing fights. Also I think just the peak potential chaos of 6 players swarming on the screen is 'a lot to take in' and maybe I'm translating that to 'speed'. In general in 5v5 I feel I always know the number of players and where to expect them.
I feel all the bullshit abilities (like grip and zuzu) definitly didn't help the overall speed of the game lol
@@engineergaming3830 Not so much the speed but actions per second. Compare rein to ramttra in a 5v5 setting. Now add a second OW2 tank like Mauga. Not only were the tanks made for OW2, combined they have so many abilities in contrast to zarya rein, they'd have to lose an ability or be nerfed to boredom.
If there's a 25% increase in variables wouldn't it be correct to assume the game is both faster and slower
well thats why ure a ow2 player with a peanut brain, wont even bother to try out more 6v6, just quit the game we dont need u around lol
Damn Freedo, it sounds like you should take a break from Overwatch and just go enjoy Marvel Rivals. Even while saying you now prefer 6v6 you sound like you hate it. I used to really like your content because you built your arguments well and constructively but a lot of your recent output and this video especially felt like you were just rambling angrily - annoyed at the devs and the community for not listening to your advice. And while I can understand that, since you've been putting so much effort into your work only to get abuse in the comments, this kind of video achieves nothing. You won't be able to educate players that don't want to be educated and if you're hoping to change the opinions of people who argue in your comment section... You won't. Just leave it be if all it brings you is this kind of frustration.
5v5 > 6v6
So now every 6v6er wasn’t just crying wolf? The switch up is insane
Watch the video challenge
TL:DR:
Supports - More healbotty
DPS - Less freedom in angles, but as defences are depleted, kills are fodder.
Tanks - If I don't have my friend, I'm on my own. Counterpicking isn't as much in the tank role, now I can't counterswap the tankbusters.
TL:DR the game is more fair and more fun. you have more options for how to play and what 2 pick on al roles since hard countering isnt a thing anymore.
@oskaius7903 Okay, I want you to remember "hard countering doesn't exist in 6v6" so that the next time you hear your favourite streamer say the opposite, you'll have to sweep your pride in your opinions under the rug since you don't ever really come to your own conclusions
@@jacobbaartz7710 fav streamer 🤡 unlike you i dont need 2 watch a 6 hour livestream 2 form oppinions. and no honest person with a brain would ever say there is hard counters in 6v6 cuz there are none. you can play whatever you want if ur good enough. i havent had 2 swap at al unless the enemy is better than i am, unlike in 5v5 where if he picks ram i can no longer play rein even tho i smurf the guys peak.
@oskaius7903 well at least we can agree watching streams is lame
It's such a freedo thing to trade 5v5 out as long as he gets hero bans. I love this.
But.. it's not just Rivals that is in competition of player retention, it's Path of Exile 2 in conjunction with Rivals. There are fun games to play that have come out, and the 6v6 test has honestly come out at the worst time, or the best time depending on your perspective.
all I can say is : irony
You obviously didn't finish watching the video
Watch the video challenge
@@dewinmartinez7222 sorry, when someone goes from comparing an opinion to flat-earth theory, to then saying "6v6 is objectively more fun" I'm not gonna watch their hour long video. this debate is tired and drawn out
@@honeybadger5035 i don't agree with freedo but damn are you types of people proving his 6v6ers are flat earthers things right. i guess that is just anybody who can't take another persons opinion though, 90% of people hate hearing the other sides complaints but think it's sweet music to listen to complaints they agree with.
What would be cool is to have rotating duo bonuses as well, like Marvel does. Sure they might get banned if they are too OP too, but it could add SO much variety.
I am ready to embrace the wondeful imbalance of 6v6.
Also, some constructive feedback: your videos often seem like one long paragraph lately. I think giving our brains a break with some pauses and tranisitions would be nice. I love a good title slide for each section to focus back up. Especially with the crazy gameplay constantly fighting for my attention.
Great feedback.
I've said it so many times and I'll say it again, the game needs ranked tiered character stats. Just like how the college 3 point line in basketball is shorter than the NBA line. Characters like widow for instance are hard to balance where they are viable at low ranks (70-85% of players) but not dominant at high ranks. So why not make it such that she does slightly less damage for a headshot at high ranks? We could have finely tuned characters for the different rank tiers and for the pro scene to help balance the game. Another example is moira, who dominates dps duals at low ranks where people can't aim, but whose damage is balanced at higher ranks.
This in conjunction with the fact that blizzard always makes drastic buff/nerfs and often changes crucial playstyle elements instead of slowly making minor changes will always keep the game feeling the same. It seems like the devs really just don't understand the game and it's playerbase, and never have.
That's pretty stupid. And the college basketball analogy doesn't even fit what you're proposing at all
@@TheLoneDrow916would you care to elaborate? You're opinion doesn't mean much if you don't have any reasoning. I think the analogy first perfectly, college players aren't as good so to keep the 3 point shot meta the line is closer...
Skill-based damage? Yeah, that's going to go over well...
@@bihn not personal skill, based on your rank, and not just damage, all stats can be tweaked
For me this 6v6 test legit didnt feel much different from the standard 5v5
It's mostly a tank thing.