@Ziv Zulander Anand is the literal definition of a sellout. Anandtech has slipped to the point where they are now doing paid reviews. Brian Klug was fantastic, the best writer at that time on Anandtech.
And some PSUs are arsonists: www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/26/exploding_computer_vs_reg_reader/ One of the PSUs in Jonnyguru's "gutless wonder" reviews was certainly heading that way with PCB getting seriously heated up look from that hour or two long testing.
@@tuunaes I just recently came home to a house full of smoke. My PSU had not only died but caught fire. Fortunately it was a small fire that went out on its own, the smoke was just from burned plastic and once I swapped in another PSU, the comp was fine. And this wasn't an el-cheapo special, it was a top of the line gold 850w from one of the main players.
Western world safety regulations likely require flame retardant/self extinguishing materials. So once heat from some short circuit/collected dust ends, there shouldn't be continuing fire. Again cheap "China Export" garbages don't care much about regulations and can keep burning until there's nothing more left to burn.
Yep. Absolutely. Wasn't sure on the AX860i 2 years ago, because of the complaints about it online, and he explained to me that the failure rate was less than 1% and that it'd be very very unlikely that I'd experience any issues with boot loops or anything else. Been just over 2 years now running the fearsome FX 9590, and the AX860i hasn't turned on it's fan, hasn't had any problems and is still running fine today. I'll also be transferrring it over to a 3950x build when that comes out.
garbage yes. but then again some people (friend of mine in this particular case) run VS with a FX series processor with a 1070 and never bothering to clean their rig. i've had a good laugh dissing the people who built the pc, dissing him and his rig
I had real respect for Jon from when he used to run Johnny guru, and now he helps engineer PSU's, and in this video he basically advocated not buying the most expensive PSU's mad props.
If you're gonna talk to an expert, get THE expert. Nice one, much respect for a guy that really knows his stuff. Interesting that he works for Corsair now.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, PCWorld, for bringing in an expert to talk about A VERY IMPORTANT component of a PC. And no, I am NOT being sarcastic!
Agreed, the question asked are great too. Most interviewers never delve into any detailed questions or anything worthwhile. Very interesting discussion over all.
Seasonic says it best "It's the heart of your system" and the old adage definitely applies here, you get what you pay for. Running a Crosshair VII Hero, 2700x and a EVGA 2080ti Ultra with a 750w Seasonic Focus Gold Plus, 10 yr warranty, runs like a boss!!
Running the same board & cpu as you but with a 1080ti, had it powered by a Silverstone Strider 1000w which was 9 years old when I sold it and that thing never missed a beat, replaced it with a seasonic 1000w psu last year, I don't need that much power but the way I see it is to buy a bigger psu wattage wise than you need to factor in future upgrades.
@@render5098 The only series from Corsair that's Seasonic is the AX. All the others are GW, CWT and Flextronics. The AX is probably the series that makes least sense to buy, no matter what system you're powering
Had a cheaper CX650 on my old system that fried during a power spike. Corsair replaced it so quickly and painlessly, while paying for shipping and pre-approving the RMA process. I've bought nothing but Corsair since, I was impressed by their customer support and friendliness. They even have me a coupon for a discount on any retailer I would like. 10/10 company imo.
I bought my (non Corsair) PSU based on a Johnny Guru review and recommendation (from before he worked for Corsair). It is an EVGA Supernova 750 G2, and it was surprisingly inexpensive at the time (less than $100 CAD). I didn't need a 750 watt PSU, but ALL of the similar 550 and 650 Watt units were around the same price OR MORE.
I really enjoyed this video. I even understood most of it. Gordon didn't need a primer on PSUs nearly as much as he did on how to pronounce "Gerow." :)
One thing I do not like with a lot of these newer PSU's is they are all going for Fluid Dynamic Bearing fans. Unless it's done right they are basically a sleeve bearing with a fancy name. Twin ball bearing, please.
@@bobgreene2892 Alot of hard drives use FDB bearings. I think it's pretty much the norm now. I think more effort in R&D is done on a HDD than a fan though. There are far more benefits to having a FDB over ball bearing especially in a hdd where it can't be replaced... like i said, it just has to be made right. I have yet to see a fan have similar quality as hdd bearing, noctua and sunon maglev are good contenders I suppose. None of my FDB fans have failed, some of the older ones make strange ticking noises though, dependant on orientation. I install and repair industrial fans too. You will almost always find ball bearing there. Proven, reliable, replaceable...
@@chris746568462 I usually insist on all-ball-bearing fans, and only gradually have begun to trust the (MTBF) projected lifespans for fluid dynamic bearing hard drives. FDB-based drives offer more value, as you point out, IF they are manufactured properly. But the temptation is strong to manufacture for a planned failure date. That said, what drives the bottom-line marketers crazy are the customers who insist on high quality with longest life for their dollars. That intangible is still called reputation, and it builds sales volume more often than not in even a shark-frenzy market.
@@bobgreene2892 ball bearings are noisy. As long as the FDB are protected from dust, they hand work for a huge number of years. Just about all HDD uses it - but it's easier in a HDD since it has already an hermetical seal to protect the platters/heads so no extra work to keep the bearing protected from dust.
I have an AX860 and it's fantastic. That being said seasonic titanium models are the pinnacle in my opinion. Most normal people should just focus on getting a gold rated unit from any reputable brand - emphasis on "reputable".
Yeah i have a Seasonic titanium but most of the time i find myself recommending gold rated PSUs from either Seasonic, EVGA, Corsair to my friends. There's just so much quality and value with the 10 year warranty they all provide. A quality 550W-650W is enough for pretty much any gaming PC norwadays
The Seasonic Prime Titanium is absolutely not the pinnacle. That's not about opinion, that's fact. The AX1600i is objectively the best PSU by any measure, except for things like watts/litre. By your suggestion, the EVGA G1/NEX 80+ Gold would be a good buy. It's absolutely not. It's based on the Aurum, and it's very low end, group regulated and absolute hot garbage.
@@MrSeon123 Your being pedantic. In one extremely niche segment with the insane wattage.... Corsair win. But every other segment Seasonic rule the roost. That's a fact! Also its not impossible to buy a lemon from a reputable brand, but it's unusual so I stand by my advice.
@@Buffinator1988 No matter how much power your PC draw, the AX1600i will outperform any Seasonic. If you want the pinnacle of PSUs, you get that, and just ignore the wattage. Besides, would you really call the Prime the "pinnacle", when it lacks any options for multi rail OCP, and uses a super crappy fan? And because it's Seasonic, it will have worse QC than PSUs from larger companies. This is due to Seasonic outsourcing so much.
I've been using my two FSP Platinum PSUs for 5 years now. One reason even good PSUs blow is that people get the power from an interactive line UPS not an online one. Making the PSU overwork to correct for those stair voltage steps. Remember, these PSUs are active. They will constantly try to match the voltage peak and current to the same time for highest efficiency aka same degree. It'll be a constant of .99 or 1 on your watt meter. Use online UPS if you have to use one with these active PSUs.
JonnyGuru is the reason I bought the 750w Antec Earthwatts PSU in my PC like 8 years ago. It's been in two PCs (the first suffered a lightning strike through the dsl line) and is still going strong!
I'm replying to a 3 year old comment, but I bought the 750w Antec Earthwatts PSU too, and have been using it for a very long time. It's now in my pc with an rtx 3080 and 5800x3d, and it's still working as well as the day I bought it. When I was planning on buying the Eartwatts PSU, my brother was telling me not to buy it, that being a multi-rail psu it could be a problem. I'm running two separate rails to my gpu, and the other two to the rest of everything. Yes, you do have to take 5 seconds to make sure the rails are distributed evenly, but I don't see a problem there.
"An overworked capacitor is the same as an overheated capacitor." These things are good to know when it comes to why one should reserve money for the PSU. High ripple will work, but your mainboard could randomly die after 2 years.
Question : PSU with hybrid fan, why is the decision to stop/run the fan is based on power delivery and not with a temperature sensor? if someone has higher ambiant, can it get damaged from heat?
also it depends... u can have for example corsair rmx with dedicated MCU for temperature (it managing rpms by temperature, power delivery and few, various things). another psus should have thermistor for measuring trigger point to start spinning the fan. it's not good like mcu, but still... but i can be in mistake, just i know, that very cheap power supplies have connected fan to power of +12v without any thermistor.
They talk about this briefly in the video. Ambient temps (unless you live in an oven) aren’t significant enough to actually cause problems for the psu.
@@slipknottin my old case didn't have a schrout, I had hardware that was outputting a lot of heat inside the case, the frame of my PSU became really hot and the fan wasn't spinning because it wasn't outputting enough power. I caught it early and turn the hybrid off... it worked fine from there, but what if...
Johnny Guru doesn't fail. Context: for my first pc build (and still the one I have as of now) I went with an AX860 at the time. It's companions were a 4770k, gtx 780 then later 2x 980s with all custom watercooled stuff.. Then a house fire happened and the pc was stuck in an apartment that was essentially rotting. Literally mold on the walls, this was week 2. I managed to salvage just the pc, all accessories were destroyed, rusted, molded, drowned in the dirtiest water you can imagine from an 8 story building (we lived on the 2nd)being sent from firetrucks for hours and left over days until looters began stealing our things.. I restored the pc, and later on I went to replace a 980 with a 1080ti. Fast forward to today, that same psu (purchased in 2014) - powers a 3900x, 1080Ti, 980 (all these things are overclocked mind you), several drives, and although not entirely relevant 64GB 3200mhz ram kit. So, at the VERY high end side of the spectrum I can say with certainty that come hell or high water conditions/circumstances, these parts are in fact capable of withstanding constant use & unintended abuse (like the case of sitting in a humid, mold infested, water/fire damaged apartment for days on a desk).. 👌🏼 Fun fact: among the thieves who broke into our home, they literally unboxed and left my old gtx 780 out in the open on a chair... At the time they could've sold it for a good $300-350 easily.. Lucky for me they weren't the smartest thieves in the world and ended up leaving it on my chair unwrapped from its antistatic bag.
The efficiency might not make much difference in somewhere like Idaho where electricity is pretty cheap at $0.08 per KiloWatt Hour; however this is a different story with regard to somewhere like Hawaii where the cost of electricity is $0.34 per KiloWatt Hour (over four times as much). So the choice of the efficiency of your PSU is VERY RELEVANT depending on where you live.
No. Let's take a reasonably high end system with a 2070 Super. It's a 215W GPU, so the system will draw less than 300W under a gaming load. Let's use 300W. Let's now take a scenario where you play 4 hours per day on average for 365 days. The cost difference between running a CX550 and a TX550M will be about $4,90. So no, it's still not important. You shouldn't buy a PSU based on efficiency, you should buy it based on the performance, noise, protections, etc.
@@MrSeon123 So a CPU uses fuck all energy then? It's just the GPU? So let's be realistic and have a gaming system with something like a 9700K you would need 570 Watts (with all the other bits and bobs) Now this is what the PSU would supply to the system, however at 85% efficiency it would be drawing 670.5 Watts from the socket whereas at 92% efficiency it would be drawing 619.5 Watts which is a difference of over 50 Watts. That's not chump change.
He's always been a good source for finding out if a PSU is good or not. What he said about older type power supplies explains the issue with the one in my rig now. I just ordered a replacement not too long ago, just have to swap it in
I followed Johnny recommendations on my second high end build nearly 10 years ago on my i7 extreme cpu build. Still going strong and didn't cheap out on the psu.
If you live in a country where the power goes out when it rains. Then you know you need to have extra surge protectors running before you attache the PSU.
Very much appreciate this interview-- Jon Gerow smoothly and expertly shows why certain misunderstandings about PSUs can threaten our equipment and investment in a major way. I like the fact Gordon reviews-- one by one-- each of those myths and areas of ignorance (most of which I shared with him). He covers not only the levels of performance (bronze, silver, gold and platinum efficiencies), but the single-and-multi-rail design, and even the old idea that PSU weight counts. The information was so dense, I watched the interview with many replays at various points. So, yes, I have met many of the PSU disasters mentioned, ranging from a fried mainboard connector to a "stealth" overheating PSU issue (indicating under-capacity and/or end of service life), so I listened with rapt attention-- all this information complementing / confirming my gradual evolution of understanding over the years. Today, I run all critical/production equipment from only the highest quality, longest-warranty PSUs I can afford, as my first priority. My rationale is simple-- most problems encountered began with a PSU problem, and rippled downstream (in worst cases). Of course, I have followed GMU (Gordon) over the years well before PCWorld went entirely digital, and highly value his continued effort at excellence and expertise. Of course, I subscribed.
i remember buying a 550w unit that is actually 350w, popped mid game & took my hdd, bought a decent second hand fsp psu (still atx 2.2 rip) cuz i dont have a lot of money at the time and my pc is fine since then
So are all modular cables interchangeable between brands? I guess what im trying to say is there a standard like say usb where all connectors are the same?
Seasonic is my brand, got a 15 year one still running to this day. Very old out of date machine but if i need to start its there... it ran for almost 10 years with out being powered off...
I've had one bad Seasonic. First series 1000 Platinum. They have a known issue with a starting circuit. 3 months past the 7 year warranty, mine refused to allow restarts. I'd have to switch it off and let it drain before I could power up. Replaced it with a SGX-650 as I get ready to go SFF. 10 YEAR WARRANTY
Another thing that I consider is if you always have a heater in operation it makes no sense to care about energy "waste" converted to heat in the same area you're paying to heat anyway.
Ok I for one respect the hell out of JonnyGuru for NOT flaking out and just stating it like it is and making this a Corsair ad ,and good on Corsair for hiring this man in the first place . I love Corsair products and the fact that it wasn't a plug aka promo for Corsair I hellz yeah and job well done . FACTS are what really count !
I love corsair, my AX1500i is great and i never knew that there was a 10 YEAR WARRANTY until i had an issue with my AX1200i, WOW impressive and that is just one reason to pay up for a quality Corsair PSU
True, you can't beat a company that stands behind its products the way Corsair does. I just got a 128GB DDR4 Memory pack for my new PC i build (Corsair Vengeance LPX) and it works right out of the box, just like the awesome i9-9900KS i got (the damn things runs all 16 threads at or over 5.0 GHz WITHOUT ME CHANGING ANY SETTING, JUST "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", its amazing, i have never had that kind of luck with AMD CPUs, and i have given them so many chances and yet everytime i have been let down, so its INTEL FOR LIFE for me. But as for their power supplies, i had one with a bad TDP switch, that would only shut off when you pressed the system through the video card, and i tried several different high end cards, all of them triggered it, and of coarse this GPU was a upgrade for my old 2012 build so i didn't notice it until 2016-2017, and i thought that i was out $485 or so for the AX1200i that i had because it had been well over 3-5 years, and the engineer tells me that he'll have the RMA department send me out a prepaid shipper and get me a replacement ASAP, i was shocked, he said "Yes, all our power supplies (and i am assuming he means higher end or at least gold level or higher ones, but i could be wrong as i dont buy Bronze level PSUs) have a 10 year warranty, that is customer service.
The two components in your system that you should never cheap out on are your motherboard and your power supply. Both are directly connected to every other component in your build, and both will give you random instability that you can't troubleshoot (at best), or will fail spectacularly and wreck who knows what else in your system when they do.
@@Zarrx having decent electric service I never use a surge protector. I rely on my PSU to filter and regulate the current my systems run on. That's it's job after all. Although I did lose some equipment a while back due to a lightning strike. No computers but I lost a network switch. Likely due to poor isolation between the primary and secondary. Or rather non-existent isolation. Cheap wall warts are cheap.
@@Zarrx Modern, high-quality power supplies have a lot of the same protection features that are built into high-end surge protectors and power line conditioners. Over/under current protection, over/under voltage (surge/brownout) protection, line filtering, etc. I wouldn't use your PC's power supply as a surge protector, but high-quality power supplies can and do pick up the slack of surge protectors (within reason). So to answer your question: Yes it could have been a crappy surge protector, but a quality power supply would have probably saved his components.
My 88 yr old father is a retired electrician and would love talking to this guy cause he is a bit of an expert on electric motors ...wire size armatures magnets and such .
I think not because he don't like the function, but rather about the cost, regular person don't really care about aesthetic especially about power supply which you will never see in regular setup. 20-50% price increase just for modular is a lot.
Didn't know he's working for Corsair now. He helped me determine if my ~6 yr. old FSP Raider 650W was dying and causing reboots during games. Was already eyeing the CXM550 as a replacement and now no more reboots.
Second rate capacitors and really mediocre 12V ripple already as new (would say FSP overrated it by 100W) aren't good starting place for longevity. www.hardwaresecrets.com/fsp-raider-650-w-power-supply-review/2/ www.hardwaresecrets.com/fsp-raider-650-w-power-supply-review/8/ Again that CX550M is equally far from good with some cheap caps and failure to meet hold up time of ATX spec and lacking protections: www.hardwareinsights.com/corsair-cx550m-farewell-group-design/7/#Conclusion-and-evaluation That model was clearly devised by some bean counter looking for way to get more profits by using brand image to sell substandard crap. Would treat it with some derating and replace before five years. Unless your PC use is at most hour or two per day.
AX760 with an Intel 4790k at 4.4GHz with a 1070, 4x4GB sticks of Ripjaws, Samsung 840 150 SSD, Samsung 940 500SSD , Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 1TB, 2x500GB WD Blacks, three DVD players and this Corsair AX760 is still kicking ass and taking names. The most beutiful part of the AX760 power supply is the copper you can see from the back of your case. The 1080p KING!
One myth I would also like to have debunked if he is reading the comments... Haveing it always on vs turning on and off. I see several comments bragging how long the powersupplies have run, and many without even being turned off. But what I have heard is, that it's actually better for them to just run non stop than being turned on and off, as that puts a lot more stress on the components! Is there any validity to this? If there is, that could be why I never had a faulty PSU on my hands :)
Well when you turn it on, it heats up, components including solder joints expand. When you turn it off, everything cools off, components and solder joints contract. It is definately plausible as this effect does indeed shorten the life of electronics in other environments. For example, this effect caused the terrible solder in the Xbox 360 to fail.
I think there are two main points in regards to overprovisioning, or getting a much bigger power supply than you technically need: 1) As was mentioned in this video, modern power supplies are now linear, rather than operating on a curve. It used to be that you wanted a power supply to operate at 50% load for optimum efficiency. Now that it's linear, it sounds like that no longer applies. Unless I misunderstood. 2) With the death of the using of multiple video cards, one of the biggest power consumers is gone. It used to be that you might want to add a second video card in the future, so you'd need a power supply large enough to accommodate that. That being said, you don't want to run your power supply at 90%+ all the time either, so you should have some excess. It's just nothing like it used to be.
@@averydangerouscat7381 Also, I don't know if it is or isn't still an issue, but I know power supplies used to produce less maximum power as they aged.
Dude! I just got a hx750. Paid a bomb for is just to get really bad coil whine! Should I avoid them altogether? What do you recommend? Please get back to me
18:50 It absolutely is still true. Just look at the efficiency curve of any modern Corsair PSU. They max out at around 50% load. It's not as dramatic a difference as it used to be, but it's still a curve (his earlier comment about it being a flat line is nonsense).
A 5700XT paired with a 9900K @5ghz draws just shy of 400 watts. Even a high quality 450 watt PSU can power this system. The "recommended" PSU wattages are *vastly* overestimated.
@@STR33TSofJUST1C3 only because of the 50% rule for peak effeciency, not saying it won't be capable. just saves power and heat going by the 50% rule so if it uses 400w at load, you'll want an 800w (maybe 750w) psu, even if 450w psu CAN do it, do you think your car should run right under the redline? it can doesn't mean it should.
The only company that has ever outlived many machines was SeaSonic. Though I have bought and still buy quite a bit of Corsair due to compatibility and features over the years. Though I always heard that Corsair doesn’t make their own but rather has their PSU’s built to their spec and then slaps their name on it. Which isn’t bad.
Corsair doesn't make anything, but they do have customs designs. Mostly CWT and GW, with some Flextronics, HEC and Seasonic. Seasonic has worse QC than the larger companies, as they outsource so much. Even the PCB A manufacturing. They also like to skip out on protections and on the fan, even on their Prime Ultra Titanium.
Haven't the reviews on his site been done by OklahomaWolf for several years by now? I got the impression he was taking a hands off approach after signing with Corsair just for this reason.
If elevated temps in my necessarily quiet, but small computer room, seriously reduces my mental capability to function at the keyboard and with two mice, then minimal waste heat, from any and all sources, is absolutely essential!
Worse for all cases that aren't extreme OC on sub ambient. Anyone that argues *for* single rail is misinformed. It's a protection, just like over temperature protection, over power protection, short circuit protection etc.
comparison: its better to run your ac wall outlets over smaller individual fuses (europe would be 230V/16Amps AC) so if one thing on one plug blows up it gets detected and the fuse/"breaker" protects what its intended to protect: the power lines from melting and your house burning down. Now if you run 10 of these outlets over 1 fuse you'd probably have to rate it at 160Amps, because ya know, same power, riiight ?? - Nope! If one of those wall outlets fails behind that big breaker, you can easily plasmaburn your way through a wall, without the fuse/breaker tripping. ((offtopic: because of this wiring thicknes/resistance+length has to fit breaker/fuse size. if there isnt enough current because of closed loop/short circuit with too high wiring resistance, your fuse will never break) So one big power rail does not protect as good as multiple smaller ones, which you can always use in parallel if you need more power (e.g. 2x8pole power slot on gpu) ..also usually the connectors are the parts going nuclear first because of heatload due to contact/surface resistance... so: multi rail better than single big rail.
@@PsiQ Thanks for the detailed explanation. I looked up some other videos about it. The info I got is inline with what you said, but none really summed it all up.
11:28 jonnyGuru is talking about companies like Seasonic. All of their PSUs are rated for full power at 40°C, but they say up to 50°C on the label. This includes their highest end Prime Ultra Titanium. There are also plenty of other reasons not to choose Seasonics.
I havent worked with computer assembly for 10 years but I know very well who JonnyGuru is and the awesome work he has done reviewing power supplies when noone else did. He's a psu pioneer!
@@HarshNerf a "shit ton" that's a technical term right? $10-20 if you're poor as hell I guess is a shit ton. Not having a bunch of unnecessary cables flopping all around getting tangled up and then having to be stuffed somewhere is worth the "shit ton extra".
@@GeneralZap and you're implying everyone uses a full size case. Step into the present! They even have cases, that are frequently used, about the size of a modern Xbox! Gasp! I know! It's mind-blowing that not everyone uses a 70lb monster for everyday use!
YES! Something I have been wondering about for many years. ALL my components are on consumer level UPS's... does it shorten the life of the components?
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These guy are two hard straight up thug pimps laying down some knowledge on us.
I used to go by the HARDOCP reviews, ill have to check this guy out, I went with HARDOCP because they torture tested supplies in a hot box for 24 hours, pulled them apart and inspected every single component, tested the claims of the manufacturers and called them on them when they were false. They even caused a couple of power supplies to catch fire during testing - obviously those were a fail. Unfortunately the guy running it went to work for Intel.
Speaking of weight reminded me of something a fellow who had been in the military liked to say "400 cycle iron weighs a lot less than 60 cycle stuff" referring to the weight of the respective transformer cores.
@@Eqpesan i just sent it back and bought a seasonic. never corsair again lol. first one had breaking sata connectors and the second a rattling fan. avoid the tx850m
I always thought efficiency rating just meant longevity. My 750 watt Corsair power supply is gold rated and it's powered my last 3 builds, and hopefully the 4th as well. I believe that I'm actually overprovisioned because the trend in electronics is smaller more power efficient components.
Manny Calavera the jihn did anver this inderectly. Modern gpu switch power so quicly and run such high frequences that it does course coil whine unless the psu is state of the art and even then there sometimes is that whine.
Bought an AX750 8-9years a go. The only part i have not upgraded through the years. It was not cheap but it's a high quality psu with 10years of warranty. Spending a bit more on a good psu is worth it imho
Stop telling fibs, PSU efficiency isn't "pretty much a flat line", I've yet to see an efficiency curve that is. There is a clear difference between the VS series and the higher end PSU's efficiency curve, and what I'm seeing is the drop off from peak efficiency to 100% load is effectively halved on the newer topology units, but it's still there and you still need to check them because there is still a lot of variance to that efficiency drop off between models. Older topology PSU's which are often in the low end of the plus certification can drop a significant amount of efficiency from peak to 100% in the region of 4-5% while a gold or platinum PSU will only be around 2-3% (1% is a best case scenario most seem closer to 2%). On a 750W PSU running @100% load @90% efficiency draws ~834W for 84 Watts dissipated, while @88% draws ~853W that 2% efficiency drop equates to an additional ~20W of heat generated or 103W for the PSU. That same at platinum works out to only 60W of heat generated @92% efficiency (810W in for 750W out). Those small percentage gains on efficiency really make a big difference in heat at higher power draws. So that 2% in the above example actually changes the amount of heat generated by the PSU by 23%, so over provisioning the PSU so that it stays at peak efficiency is demonstrably beneficial. The choice for efficiency has little to do with ROI and saving the planet, but rather limiting heat generation by the system especially when building a high end spec drawing high wattages. The 50% rule of thumb still applies when configuring for your total system power draw, the newer topology PSU's spread that up to 65-70% (so 750W+ for a 500W system draw) or halve and add rule of thumb ((X/2)+X) for gold and above rating on high powered systems.
Yes. There is a clear difference between the efficiency curve of a VS (which uses a double forward front end) and a higher end PSU like a CX or RMx (which uses an LLC resonant mode topology). While the efficiency "curve" isn't truly "flat" on the newer PSU's, the 50% rule of thumb certainly doesn't apply to those PSUs. This is a PSU with an old topology: img.purch.com/r/711x457/aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmJlc3RvZm1pY3JvLmNvbS9PL1cvNzcwNzIwL29yaWdpbmFsL1Jlc3VsdC0xNS04X0VmZmljaWVuY3lfR3JhcGgucG5n 87% efficient at 50% load and 82% efficient at 100% load. A significant drop. Now here's a PSU that uses a more modern LLC topology: img.purch.com/r/711x457/aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmJlc3RvZm1pY3JvLmNvbS9DL1AvNTY0MjE3L29yaWdpbmFsL1Jlc3VsdC0xNS04X0VmZmljaWVuY3lfR3JhcGguSlBH Only a 2.5% drop going from 50% to 100% at 115% input (where a PSU tends to be less efficient. The 230V results are even better). Half that of the older PSU. That 2% efficiency savings is NOT going to give you ROI if you're paying for a PSU that's twice the size you need, just to hit "peak efficiency".
@@jonnyGURU Sorry for the delayed response. I specifically stated that the choice of efficiency has little to do with ROI but rather with heat generation. That 1.5% difference between peak and 100% for the RM550x you linked equates to 15% more power dissipation than at peak efficiency. At 92% for 550W that's a 47W heat dissipation while at 90.5% that's 57W dissipation a 10W difference on the 230V scale. For the 115V scale we see a peak of 91% and 88% which is double or 54W dissipation at peak vs 75W dissipation at 100%. cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/pToDubt7TK5MTDSr7euyp8-650-80.png Now this holds to the rule for 230V but is more affected with 115V input, 550W draw gets us close to the 92% peak efficiency (somewhere around 91.5%) with 230V but drops to about 89.5% on 110V so we'd probably want to consider a higher rated or another PSU which has a better efficiency at 550W on 115V. The point being made here is that it isn't a 2% difference between 92 and 90% efficiency but a 20%+ difference in the amount of power needed to be dissipated. For 115V that unfortunately means sticking to the 50% rule of thumb for the most part or considering a platinum PSU especially for systems that will draw high power, and even more so for 24/7 systems. Personally I select PSU's that have an eco or zero fan mode in the range where my system will be operating 90% of the time, which means not only less heat to dissipate, but less dust being drawn into the PSU to blanket components. The low side of the efficiency curve isn't an issue if you are only running 86% and drawing 100W as that's only 16W to dissipate and no fan required and low heat on the components. cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/TLCA92MLBeE84N9hT6LnAV-650-80.png Consider bronze vs platinum @550W power draw, at 86% efficiency at 115V the heat dissipated is 90W for this PSU. Compare that to this cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/X7GZvurA7Y5gW4zK5zaDhG-650-80.png at 550W at 115V @ 91.5% efficiency, which is 51W required to be dissipated. Your total system power draw will dictate what level of PSU you need, the more power draw you have to dissipate, the more relevant efficiency becomes as you are likely running expensive GPU's and CPU's for that power draw. Just because newer PSU's have become better at efficiency as you approach 100%, doesn't mean you should ignore the power being dissipated and how that affects the PSU's operation and temps.
@@ImDembe Not noise but heat, 2% efficiency drop isn't 2% of additional power dissipation (heat) it's 20% of additional heat from 90-88%. Noise is a consequence of fan speed increases to shift the extra heat out, but as fan speed increases dissipation doesn't track linearly so you'll hit max fan speed usually before 100% load, then thermals rise. Optimally you still want significant overprovisioning in your PSU despite the improvements in efficiency @100% load, but it's not effectively a flat line as 2% is really 20% of 10% dissipation in a 90% efficient PSU at optimum.
"Gordon sits down with Corsair's PSU expert Jon Gerow" they were standing the whole time..
It's all lies and slanders!!
Minister C. Politics just like rtx
@@ministerc.politics4305 I WANT 80+ VIBRANIUM
Got em!
Fake news
This guy is/was basically the most trusted person in PC hardware, maybe ever.
Pc Jesus aka Steve is close second!
@Ziv Zulander Anand is the literal definition of a sellout. Anandtech has slipped to the point where they are now doing paid reviews. Brian Klug was fantastic, the best writer at that time on Anandtech.
They are good at what they do so they get hired..so many salty animals
HypnoticSuggestion johnnyguru is the man when it comes to psus.
I’ve got to work with him on the Corsair 1600 before release.. he does great work..
Sometimes PSU,s not only commit suicide but homicide as well.
Indeed, and that's the last part of the video!
And some PSUs are arsonists:
www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/26/exploding_computer_vs_reg_reader/
One of the PSUs in Jonnyguru's "gutless wonder" reviews was certainly heading that way with PCB getting seriously heated up look from that hour or two long testing.
Suicide-bombing kind of deal
@@tuunaes I just recently came home to a house full of smoke. My PSU had not only died but caught fire. Fortunately it was a small fire that went out on its own, the smoke was just from burned plastic and once I swapped in another PSU, the comp was fine. And this wasn't an el-cheapo special, it was a top of the line gold 850w from one of the main players.
Western world safety regulations likely require flame retardant/self extinguishing materials.
So once heat from some short circuit/collected dust ends, there shouldn't be continuing fire.
Again cheap "China Export" garbages don't care much about regulations and can keep burning until there's nothing more left to burn.
I choose my power supply based on this man suggestions since more than 10 years. Thanks Jonny
Yep. Absolutely. Wasn't sure on the AX860i 2 years ago, because of the complaints about it online, and he explained to me that the failure rate was less than 1% and that it'd be very very unlikely that I'd experience any issues with boot loops or anything else. Been just over 2 years now running the fearsome FX 9590, and the AX860i hasn't turned on it's fan, hasn't had any problems and is still running fine today. I'll also be transferrring it over to a 3950x build when that comes out.
Well, if you chose correctly you should still be on your first or second unit :p
So you bought a Seasonic? lol
@@Star_Sn1per at first an emerald, than a seasonic and then an ax860i 😁
@@Star_Sn1per Seasonic and if I will buy again only Seasonic will do the job for me their prizes is good.
I do exactly what Corsair does when buying a PSU. I get a Seasonic.
Lmao
loll
Seasonic. The ONLY PSU brand I have ran in my builds for the last 20 years.
@@SternLX damn
Is it really that good? Wow
@@SternLX I have a powrsupply who I think is not enough to power my new graphics card. Thermaltake 730watt amd radeon 5700xt
in jonnyguru we trust. it's veeeeery nice to see that he hasn't lost any of his honesty even after being affiliated with a company. amazing.
That's common a lot of brands have stuff like that no different then any SSD brand not Kingston micron, Samsung, sk hynix, or nanya
THE Johnny Guru in person. Legend.
yep
The man. The myth. The legend.
I bet Johnny was cringing when he had to say anything about the VS series ... those are real garbage!
This comment needs more likes!
VS series are real garbage.
The new, grey VS PSUs are actually not too bad, I'd say they're just below the Seasonic S12II in terms of performance and longevity.
@@knit-abroad-glide Still an improvement from the yellow one.
garbage yes. but then again some people (friend of mine in this particular case) run VS with a FX series processor with a 1070 and never bothering to clean their rig. i've had a good laugh dissing the people who built the pc, dissing him and his rig
bUt iT wOrKs fInE fOr mE
I had real respect for Jon from when he used to run Johnny guru, and now he helps engineer PSU's, and in this video he basically advocated not buying the most expensive PSU's mad props.
Yep, a good psu cost around 100$ today but people still cheap out...come on you buy a gpu for 400$ and shit to pump power in to it :D
If you're gonna talk to an expert, get THE expert. Nice one, much respect for a guy that really knows his stuff. Interesting that he works for Corsair now.
"if you cant beat them, join them"
Thank you, thank you, thank you, PCWorld, for bringing in an expert to talk about A VERY IMPORTANT component of a PC. And no, I am NOT being sarcastic!
Agreed, the question asked are great too. Most interviewers never delve into any detailed questions or anything worthwhile. Very interesting discussion over all.
Just like in the human body, you don't mess with your heart pumping life into you.
Cpu=brain
Psu=heart
Mobo=nerves/cns
@@ayuchanayuko Good analogy. And for the spiritual/metaphysical out there... User = soul.
What's the GPU then?
@@0FFICERPROBLEM Muscles? Eyes/Retina?
That intro is way too loud.
lol
Thank you
You've now met the only person in the world who hates modular power cables.
More or less my thoughts when I heard that
I also dislike modular PSUs. So at least 2 people dont like em
@@ryanmalin
May I ask why?
@@pH7oslo to be different and nothing else I'm sure. Notice the host didn't exactly have a reason either.
I have no clue why people hate semi modular psus, it's not like your not going to use the 24-pin or the 4+4 to the cpu...
4 years ago I bought the XFX XTR 650W PSU because of his review of the unit. Still using it up to now. This man is a legend
Seasonic says it best "It's the heart of your system" and the old adage definitely applies here, you get what you pay for. Running a Crosshair VII Hero, 2700x and a EVGA 2080ti Ultra with a 750w Seasonic Focus Gold Plus, 10 yr warranty, runs like a boss!!
Corsair's good stuff is all seasonic for a reason. (and a lot of their low end stuff are great wall, again for a reason..) ;o
Running the same board & cpu as you but with a 1080ti, had it powered by a Silverstone Strider 1000w which was 9 years old when I sold it and that thing never missed a beat, replaced it with a seasonic 1000w psu last year, I don't need that much power but the way I see it is to buy a bigger psu wattage wise than you need to factor in future upgrades.
but components are more efficient every time not less efficient, you need less power now than 10 years ago.
@@render5098 The only series from Corsair that's Seasonic is the AX. All the others are GW, CWT and Flextronics. The AX is probably the series that makes least sense to buy, no matter what system you're powering
@@c4nchi yea the seasonic psu configurator recommended a 850w psu, i knew that a 750 would be plenty😉
Had a cheaper CX650 on my old system that fried during a power spike. Corsair replaced it so quickly and painlessly, while paying for shipping and pre-approving the RMA process. I've bought nothing but Corsair since, I was impressed by their customer support and friendliness. They even have me a coupon for a discount on any retailer I would like. 10/10 company imo.
I bought my (non Corsair) PSU based on a Johnny Guru review and recommendation (from before he worked for Corsair).
It is an EVGA Supernova 750 G2, and it was surprisingly inexpensive at the time (less than $100 CAD). I didn't need a 750 watt PSU, but ALL of the similar 550 and 650 Watt units were around the same price OR MORE.
I really enjoyed this video. I even understood most of it. Gordon didn't need a primer on PSUs nearly as much as he did on how to pronounce "Gerow." :)
He pronounced it correctly
One thing I do not like with a lot of these newer PSU's is they are all going for Fluid Dynamic Bearing fans.
Unless it's done right they are basically a sleeve bearing with a fancy name. Twin ball bearing, please.
At least one of the top hard drive brands boasts of its fluid dynamic bearings-- are you still skeptical? Have you had one fail?
@@bobgreene2892
Alot of hard drives use FDB bearings. I think it's pretty much the norm now.
I think more effort in R&D is done on a HDD than a fan though.
There are far more benefits to having a FDB over ball bearing especially in a hdd where it can't be replaced... like i said, it just has to be made right.
I have yet to see a fan have similar quality as hdd bearing, noctua and sunon maglev are good contenders I suppose.
None of my FDB fans have failed, some of the older ones make strange ticking noises though, dependant on orientation.
I install and repair industrial fans too. You will almost always find ball bearing there.
Proven, reliable, replaceable...
@@chris746568462 I usually insist on all-ball-bearing fans, and only gradually have begun to trust the (MTBF) projected lifespans for fluid dynamic bearing hard drives. FDB-based drives offer more value, as you point out, IF they are manufactured properly. But the temptation is strong to manufacture for a planned failure date. That said, what drives the bottom-line marketers crazy are the customers who insist on high quality with longest life for their dollars. That intangible is still called reputation, and it builds sales volume more often than not in even a shark-frenzy market.
@@bobgreene2892 ball bearings are noisy. As long as the FDB are protected from dust, they hand work for a huge number of years. Just about all HDD uses it - but it's easier in a HDD since it has already an hermetical seal to protect the platters/heads so no extra work to keep the bearing protected from dust.
I have an AX860 and it's fantastic. That being said seasonic titanium models are the pinnacle in my opinion. Most normal people should just focus on getting a gold rated unit from any reputable brand - emphasis on "reputable".
Yeah i have a Seasonic titanium but most of the time i find myself recommending gold rated PSUs from either Seasonic, EVGA, Corsair to my friends. There's just so much quality and value with the 10 year warranty they all provide. A quality 550W-650W is enough for pretty much any gaming PC norwadays
I have a seasonic s12g 550w gold psu from 2013.. no problems to this day
The Seasonic Prime Titanium is absolutely not the pinnacle. That's not about opinion, that's fact. The AX1600i is objectively the best PSU by any measure, except for things like watts/litre.
By your suggestion, the EVGA G1/NEX 80+ Gold would be a good buy. It's absolutely not. It's based on the Aurum, and it's very low end, group regulated and absolute hot garbage.
@@MrSeon123 Your being pedantic. In one extremely niche segment with the insane wattage.... Corsair win. But every other segment Seasonic rule the roost. That's a fact! Also its not impossible to buy a lemon from a reputable brand, but it's unusual so I stand by my advice.
@@Buffinator1988 No matter how much power your PC draw, the AX1600i will outperform any Seasonic. If you want the pinnacle of PSUs, you get that, and just ignore the wattage.
Besides, would you really call the Prime the "pinnacle", when it lacks any options for multi rail OCP, and uses a super crappy fan? And because it's Seasonic, it will have worse QC than PSUs from larger companies. This is due to Seasonic outsourcing so much.
I love John Gerow, he seems like the GabeN of PSUs.
Except this guy actually cares about what he’s doing
I've been using my two FSP Platinum PSUs for 5 years now. One reason even good PSUs blow is that people get the power from an interactive line UPS not an online one. Making the PSU overwork to correct for those stair voltage steps. Remember, these PSUs are active. They will constantly try to match the voltage peak and current to the same time for highest efficiency aka same degree. It'll be a constant of .99 or 1 on your watt meter. Use online UPS if you have to use one with these active PSUs.
@Brad Viviviyal exactly what I tried to say with explanation.
My Corsair HX1000 still going after 11 YEARS!
Just make sure to blast out the dust each year :D
I have an old Antec TP-750w blue that I bought in 2009 that ran nonstop 24/7 in a media server and its still running til this day, love that thing.
He is great ! Down to earth,and humvle,and extremely Knowledgeable!
In this video he is, but he's an asshole on forums
No u
JonnyGuru is the reason I bought the 750w Antec Earthwatts PSU in my PC like 8 years ago. It's been in two PCs (the first suffered a lightning strike through the dsl line) and is still going strong!
I'm replying to a 3 year old comment, but I bought the 750w Antec Earthwatts PSU too, and have been using it for a very long time. It's now in my pc with an rtx 3080 and 5800x3d, and it's still working as well as the day I bought it. When I was planning on buying the Eartwatts PSU, my brother was telling me not to buy it, that being a multi-rail psu it could be a problem. I'm running two separate rails to my gpu, and the other two to the rest of everything. Yes, you do have to take 5 seconds to make sure the rails are distributed evenly, but I don't see a problem there.
High quality content!
Thanks for this guest. ;)
"An overworked capacitor is the same as an overheated capacitor." These things are good to know when it comes to why one should reserve money for the PSU. High ripple will work, but your mainboard could randomly die after 2 years.
Question : PSU with hybrid fan, why is the decision to stop/run the fan is based on power delivery and not with a temperature sensor?
if someone has higher ambiant, can it get damaged from heat?
I imagine that they have its speed/watt curve based on the max operational ambient temperature rating (50 C).
also it depends... u can have for example corsair rmx with dedicated MCU for temperature (it managing rpms by temperature, power delivery and few, various things). another psus should have thermistor for measuring trigger point to start spinning the fan. it's not good like mcu, but still... but i can be in mistake, just i know, that very cheap power supplies have connected fan to power of +12v without any thermistor.
They talk about this briefly in the video. Ambient temps (unless you live in an oven) aren’t significant enough to actually cause problems for the psu.
@@slipknottin my old case didn't have a schrout, I had hardware that was outputting a lot of heat inside the case, the frame of my PSU became really hot and the fan wasn't spinning because it wasn't outputting enough power. I caught it early and turn the hybrid off... it worked fine from there, but what if...
Johnny Guru doesn't fail. Context: for my first pc build (and still the one I have as of now) I went with an AX860 at the time. It's companions were a 4770k, gtx 780 then later 2x 980s with all custom watercooled stuff.. Then a house fire happened and the pc was stuck in an apartment that was essentially rotting. Literally mold on the walls, this was week 2. I managed to salvage just the pc, all accessories were destroyed, rusted, molded, drowned in the dirtiest water you can imagine from an 8 story building (we lived on the 2nd)being sent from firetrucks for hours and left over days until looters began stealing our things.. I restored the pc, and later on I went to replace a 980 with a 1080ti. Fast forward to today, that same psu (purchased in 2014) - powers a 3900x, 1080Ti, 980 (all these things are overclocked mind you), several drives, and although not entirely relevant 64GB 3200mhz ram kit. So, at the VERY high end side of the spectrum I can say with certainty that come hell or high water conditions/circumstances, these parts are in fact capable of withstanding constant use & unintended abuse (like the case of sitting in a humid, mold infested, water/fire damaged apartment for days on a desk).. 👌🏼
Fun fact: among the thieves who broke into our home, they literally unboxed and left my old gtx 780 out in the open on a chair... At the time they could've sold it for a good $300-350 easily.. Lucky for me they weren't the smartest thieves in the world and ended up leaving it on my chair unwrapped from its antistatic bag.
where is the new Tier list of 2019 by Jonnyguru?
The efficiency might not make much difference in somewhere like Idaho where electricity is pretty cheap at $0.08 per KiloWatt Hour; however this is a different story with regard to somewhere like Hawaii where the cost of electricity is $0.34 per KiloWatt Hour (over four times as much).
So the choice of the efficiency of your PSU is VERY RELEVANT depending on where you live.
No.
Let's take a reasonably high end system with a 2070 Super. It's a 215W GPU, so the system will draw less than 300W under a gaming load. Let's use 300W. Let's now take a scenario where you play 4 hours per day on average for 365 days. The cost difference between running a CX550 and a TX550M will be about $4,90. So no, it's still not important. You shouldn't buy a PSU based on efficiency, you should buy it based on the performance, noise, protections, etc.
@@MrSeon123 So a CPU uses fuck all energy then? It's just the GPU?
So let's be realistic and have a gaming system with something like a 9700K you would need 570 Watts (with all the other bits and bobs)
Now this is what the PSU would supply to the system, however at 85% efficiency it would be drawing 670.5 Watts from the socket whereas at 92% efficiency it would be drawing 619.5 Watts which is a difference of over 50 Watts.
That's not chump change.
He's always been a good source for finding out if a PSU is good or not. What he said about older type power supplies explains the issue with the one in my rig now. I just ordered a replacement not too long ago, just have to swap it in
I followed Johnny recommendations on my second high end build nearly 10 years ago on my i7 extreme cpu build. Still going strong and didn't cheap out on the psu.
What psu did you get? Any recommendations
@@CaTcHaFiShBiTcH Why would you buy a 10 year old model today? Everything is better today even than 10 year old psus.
@@ImDembe I have a Supernova G3 750. Previously had the HX750 and that thing had mad coil whine for some reason. Was really disappointed
@@CaTcHaFiShBiTcH To bad, Supernova G3 are great psus :)
One word: Awesome! All my questions regarding PSU answered in one video. Thanks guys.
Every single PSU i had did not live 1 year past warranty, this time i bought one with 12 year warranty :P
If you live in a country where the power goes out when it rains.
Then you know you need to have extra surge protectors running before you attache the PSU.
@@N0N0111 agreed if its that much of a problem I suggest a battery backup so you can keep your stuff safe.
Nisco Racing surge protector, not protectors. NEVER daisy chain surge protectors
My new Corsair VS650 just came with wrong size installation screws, had to use screws that came with my case.
"who knows what Nvidia or ATI... AMD"
lol, yea, he dated himself there for sure.
Very much appreciate this interview-- Jon Gerow smoothly and expertly shows why certain misunderstandings about PSUs can threaten our equipment and investment in a major way. I like the fact Gordon reviews-- one by one-- each of those myths and areas of ignorance (most of which I shared with him). He covers not only the levels of performance (bronze, silver, gold and platinum efficiencies), but the single-and-multi-rail design, and even the old idea that PSU weight counts. The information was so dense, I watched the interview with many replays at various points.
So, yes, I have met many of the PSU disasters mentioned, ranging from a fried mainboard connector to a "stealth" overheating PSU issue (indicating under-capacity and/or end of service life), so I listened with rapt attention-- all this information complementing / confirming my gradual evolution of understanding over the years.
Today, I run all critical/production equipment from only the highest quality, longest-warranty PSUs I can afford, as my first priority. My rationale is simple-- most problems encountered began with a PSU problem, and rippled downstream (in worst cases). Of course, I have followed GMU (Gordon) over the years well before PCWorld went entirely digital, and highly value his continued effort at excellence and expertise. Of course, I subscribed.
i remember buying a 550w unit that is actually 350w, popped mid game & took my hdd, bought a decent second hand fsp psu (still atx 2.2 rip) cuz i dont have a lot of money at the time and my pc is fine since then
So are all modular cables interchangeable between brands? I guess what im trying to say is there a standard like say usb where all connectors are the same?
D Kat no... do not try either .. even same brands can cause bad results
No no no no no and NO!. The end that attaches to a device (MB, HDD, GPU, etc.) is standard but there is no standard for the PSU end.
Whooo OK that is good knowledge thanks guy's !
Seasonic is my brand, got a 15 year one still running to this day. Very old out of date machine but if i need to start its there... it ran for almost 10 years with out being powered off...
Woah!
I've had one bad Seasonic. First series 1000 Platinum. They have a known issue with a starting circuit. 3 months past the 7 year warranty, mine refused to allow restarts. I'd have to switch it off and let it drain before I could power up. Replaced it with a SGX-650 as I get ready to go SFF. 10 YEAR WARRANTY
"A 20% DOA rate would be terrible, but 4/5 people would still see no problem with the product"
Another thing that I consider is if you always have a heater in operation it makes no sense to care about energy "waste" converted to heat in the same area you're paying to heat anyway.
Jonnyguru works at Corsair now?! Holy crap, how did I not know about this!
Ok I for one respect the hell out of JonnyGuru for NOT flaking out and just stating it like it is and making this a Corsair ad ,and good on Corsair for hiring this man in the first place . I love Corsair products and the fact that it wasn't a plug aka promo for Corsair I hellz yeah and job well done . FACTS are what really count !
"GODDAM IT!" So glad I watched to the end. :D
And glad I watched, period. I feel like a PSU expert now!
it's good to see a real technician, a real professional talking about PC hardware on youtube
I love corsair, my AX1500i is great and i never knew that there was a 10 YEAR WARRANTY until i had an issue with my AX1200i, WOW impressive and that is just one reason to pay up for a quality Corsair PSU
True, you can't beat a company that stands behind its products the way Corsair does. I just got a 128GB DDR4 Memory pack for my new PC i build (Corsair Vengeance LPX) and it works right out of the box, just like the awesome i9-9900KS i got (the damn things runs all 16 threads at or over 5.0 GHz WITHOUT ME CHANGING ANY SETTING, JUST "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", its amazing, i have never had that kind of luck with AMD CPUs, and i have given them so many chances and yet everytime i have been let down, so its INTEL FOR LIFE for me. But as for their power supplies, i had one with a bad TDP switch, that would only shut off when you pressed the system through the video card, and i tried several different high end cards, all of them triggered it, and of coarse this GPU was a upgrade for my old 2012 build so i didn't notice it until 2016-2017, and i thought that i was out $485 or so for the AX1200i that i had because it had been well over 3-5 years, and the engineer tells me that he'll have the RMA department send me out a prepaid shipper and get me a replacement ASAP, i was shocked, he said "Yes, all our power supplies (and i am assuming he means higher end or at least gold level or higher ones, but i could be wrong as i dont buy Bronze level PSUs) have a 10 year warranty, that is customer service.
23:31 Gordon, you need to know the guest name, its simple and basic research that I would expect from any host.
I had a cheap power supply take out my Motherboard, HDD, and Video card once, after that I didn't cheap out anymore.
The two components in your system that you should never cheap out on are your motherboard and your power supply. Both are directly connected to every other component in your build, and both will give you random instability that you can't troubleshoot (at best), or will fail spectacularly and wreck who knows what else in your system when they do.
Same with me. Once burned twice shy.
anychance it was a cheap surge protector??
@@Zarrx having decent electric service I never use a surge protector. I rely on my PSU to filter and regulate the current my systems run on. That's it's job after all. Although I did lose some equipment a while back due to a lightning strike. No computers but I lost a network switch. Likely due to poor isolation between the primary and secondary. Or rather non-existent isolation. Cheap wall warts are cheap.
@@Zarrx Modern, high-quality power supplies have a lot of the same protection features that are built into high-end surge protectors and power line conditioners. Over/under current protection, over/under voltage (surge/brownout) protection, line filtering, etc. I wouldn't use your PC's power supply as a surge protector, but high-quality power supplies can and do pick up the slack of surge protectors (within reason).
So to answer your question: Yes it could have been a crappy surge protector, but a quality power supply would have probably saved his components.
My 88 yr old father is a retired electrician and would love talking to this guy cause he is a bit of an expert on electric motors ...wire size armatures magnets and such .
You don’t like modular psu cables? So you prefer the stupid idea we had in the 90’s
I think not because he don't like the function, but rather about the cost, regular person don't really care about aesthetic especially about power supply which you will never see in regular setup. 20-50% price increase just for modular is a lot.
The men the myths the Legends! Johnny Guru & Gordon Mah Ung! Awesome stuff!
the intro music is loud af!
Thank you
Read so many of his reviews and has definitely influenced my buying decisions. Thanks PCWorld and Jonny for taking the time to do this interview.
Didn't know he's working for Corsair now.
He helped me determine if my ~6 yr. old FSP Raider 650W was dying and causing reboots during games. Was already eyeing the CXM550 as a replacement and now no more reboots.
Second rate capacitors and really mediocre 12V ripple already as new (would say FSP overrated it by 100W) aren't good starting place for longevity.
www.hardwaresecrets.com/fsp-raider-650-w-power-supply-review/2/
www.hardwaresecrets.com/fsp-raider-650-w-power-supply-review/8/
Again that CX550M is equally far from good with some cheap caps and failure to meet hold up time of ATX spec and lacking protections:
www.hardwareinsights.com/corsair-cx550m-farewell-group-design/7/#Conclusion-and-evaluation
That model was clearly devised by some bean counter looking for way to get more profits by using brand image to sell substandard crap.
Would treat it with some derating and replace before five years.
Unless your PC use is at most hour or two per day.
AX760 with an Intel 4790k at 4.4GHz with a 1070, 4x4GB sticks of Ripjaws, Samsung 840 150 SSD, Samsung 940 500SSD , Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 1TB, 2x500GB WD Blacks, three DVD players and this Corsair AX760 is still kicking ass and taking names. The most beutiful part of the AX760 power supply is the copper you can see from the back of your case. The 1080p KING!
The man, the myth, the legend himself.
Thank you Jon for giving the time, really informative.
One myth I would also like to have debunked if he is reading the comments...
Haveing it always on vs turning on and off.
I see several comments bragging how long the powersupplies have run, and many without even being turned off. But what I have heard is, that it's actually better for them to just run non stop than being turned on and off, as that puts a lot more stress on the components! Is there any validity to this? If there is, that could be why I never had a faulty PSU on my hands :)
Well when you turn it on, it heats up, components including solder joints expand. When you turn it off, everything cools off, components and solder joints contract. It is definately plausible as this effect does indeed shorten the life of electronics in other environments. For example, this effect caused the terrible solder in the Xbox 360 to fail.
I think there are two main points in regards to overprovisioning, or getting a much bigger power supply than you technically need:
1) As was mentioned in this video, modern power supplies are now linear, rather than operating on a curve. It used to be that you wanted a power supply to operate at 50% load for optimum efficiency. Now that it's linear, it sounds like that no longer applies. Unless I misunderstood.
2) With the death of the using of multiple video cards, one of the biggest power consumers is gone. It used to be that you might want to add a second video card in the future, so you'd need a power supply large enough to accommodate that.
That being said, you don't want to run your power supply at 90%+ all the time either, so you should have some excess. It's just nothing like it used to be.
What's wrong with running a PSU at its max rated wattage?
@@averydangerouscat7381 Because if you go 1 watt over, you damage components.
@@averydangerouscat7381 Also, I don't know if it is or isn't still an issue, but I know power supplies used to produce less maximum power as they aged.
@@Trifler500 Not an issue with modern power supplies.
@@Trifler500 That's not true at all. In fact most PSUs are built to handle up to their protection tripping point, which is usually around 120%.
I've got a Corsair psu. It's has the Best coilwhine I've ever heard..
Dude! I just got a hx750. Paid a bomb for is just to get really bad coil whine! Should I avoid them altogether? What do you recommend? Please get back to me
It happens to all brands, you got warranty that cover it.
Well you went out of luck,I have 2 a VS and a CX and never experienced coil whine on both machines
This is one of the best tech videos I've stumbled on in a long time.
I clicked because of the initech shirt.
Gordon, please make more videos like this. Really important expert info!
HARDCOREEEE!!!! ; D Hi Jon, hi Gordon. Great Ask a PC expert ep!. See you around guys. Thumbs up!
18:50 It absolutely is still true. Just look at the efficiency curve of any modern Corsair PSU. They max out at around 50% load. It's not as dramatic a difference as it used to be, but it's still a curve (his earlier comment about it being a flat line is nonsense).
I'm running 550w 80+ gold with rx 5700xt even after the recommendation is 600w, that's the power and efficiency of Gold.
A 5700XT paired with a 9900K @5ghz draws just shy of 400 watts. Even a high quality 450 watt PSU can power this system. The "recommended" PSU wattages are *vastly* overestimated.
@@STR33TSofJUST1C3 Can't agree more on this. Still Clean Current, if i can call it, makes everybody happy including my PC.
@@STR33TSofJUST1C3 only because of the 50% rule for peak effeciency, not saying it won't be capable. just saves power and heat going by the 50% rule
so if it uses 400w at load, you'll want an 800w (maybe 750w) psu, even if 450w psu CAN do it, do you think your car should run right under the redline? it can doesn't mean it should.
@@bradhaines3142 50% rule is a myth. Here's a breakdown on LinusTechTips forum:
/main/topic/1105357-common-psu-misconceptions/
What a madlad!!
Thank you for this. I always wondered the real difference between 80+,bronze,gold, and platinum.
better build = better efficiency = less wasted power getting converted to heat = better thermals/overclocking & less fan noise
This was very informative. Excellent video. Running a 7 year old Corsair HX750.
I'm really enjoying the "Ask an Expert" series, keep it up!
Proudly run a CX Series Corsair PSU in my newest gaming rig! All of my other PCs also are powered by Corsair... I've never had a bad Corsair PSU.
The only company that has ever outlived many machines was SeaSonic. Though I have bought and still buy quite a bit of Corsair due to compatibility and features over the years. Though I always heard that Corsair doesn’t make their own but rather has their PSU’s built to their spec and then slaps their name on it. Which isn’t bad.
Corsair doesn't make anything, but they do have customs designs. Mostly CWT and GW, with some Flextronics, HEC and Seasonic. Seasonic has worse QC than the larger companies, as they outsource so much. Even the PCB A manufacturing. They also like to skip out on protections and on the fan, even on their Prime Ultra Titanium.
I prefer to have modular PSUs because it's easier to keep our builds tidy by NOT having cables that are not needed!
I wish this guru was independent need more of his reviews
Check out TechPowerUp, their PSU reviews are pretty good.
Haven't the reviews on his site been done by OklahomaWolf for several years by now? I got the impression he was taking a hands off approach after signing with Corsair just for this reason.
This guy and the guy who used to write PSU reviews at hardwaresecrets will always have a special place in my heart
"I hate modular power supplies"
... am I supposed to take this seriously from this point forward? 😂😂
@I Identify As Black I am not competent when it comes to PSUs and do not know why prople dont like modular PSUs. Seriously why do the not like them??
If elevated temps in my necessarily quiet, but small computer room, seriously reduces my mental capability to function at the keyboard and with two mice, then minimal waste heat, from any and all sources, is absolutely essential!
Same here!
I jumped like three inches in my wheelchair with my headphone on from that intro. Jesus Christ, could you tone it down?!!
Brilliant to hear some real knowledge and great questions asked... very informative and interesting video! Cheers guys!
19:57
CX is good
VS and CXM is bad
I thought CX and CXM were almost the same
I didn't understand. Is a single 12V rail better or worse?
Better for consumer pcs
Worse for all cases that aren't extreme OC on sub ambient. Anyone that argues *for* single rail is misinformed. It's a protection, just like over temperature protection, over power protection, short circuit protection etc.
comparison:
its better to run your ac wall outlets over smaller individual fuses (europe would be 230V/16Amps AC) so if one thing on one plug blows up it gets detected and the fuse/"breaker" protects what its intended to protect: the power lines from melting and your house burning down.
Now if you run 10 of these outlets over 1 fuse you'd probably have to rate it at 160Amps, because ya know, same power, riiight ??
- Nope! If one of those wall outlets fails behind that big breaker, you can easily plasmaburn your way through a wall, without the fuse/breaker tripping.
((offtopic: because of this wiring thicknes/resistance+length has to fit breaker/fuse size. if there isnt enough current because of closed loop/short circuit with too high wiring resistance, your fuse will never break)
So one big power rail does not protect as good as multiple smaller ones, which you can always use in parallel if you need more power (e.g. 2x8pole power slot on gpu)
..also usually the connectors are the parts going nuclear first because of heatload due to contact/surface resistance...
so: multi rail better than single big rail.
@@PsiQ
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I looked up some other videos about it. The info I got is inline with what you said, but none really summed it all up.
Just get a Seasonic.
Not all Seasonics are good, like the S12 and S13
My s12 is running to this day just fine..
m12II is bottom of tier list
@@mangshu21 isn't what this video is about?
11:28
jonnyGuru is talking about companies like Seasonic. All of their PSUs are rated for full power at 40°C, but they say up to 50°C on the label. This includes their highest end Prime Ultra Titanium.
There are also plenty of other reasons not to choose Seasonics.
I havent worked with computer assembly for 10 years but I know very well who JonnyGuru is and the awesome work he has done reviewing power supplies when noone else did. He's a psu pioneer!
WTF?!? I have never ever heard anyone claim they hated modular PSU's?!? In the words of Hank Hill "that boy just ain't right!" 😁
an added step and added cost for no real reason though, i'm sure he doesn't hate it because it's an inferior product
For some time, they were a known source of voltage instability. Took a generation or two to get the connectors right.
Modular adds nothing except pretty cables and adds a shit ton of cost to a build
@@HarshNerf a "shit ton" that's a technical term right? $10-20 if you're poor as hell I guess is a shit ton. Not having a bunch of unnecessary cables flopping all around getting tangled up and then having to be stuffed somewhere is worth the "shit ton extra".
@@GeneralZap and you're implying everyone uses a full size case. Step into the present! They even have cases, that are frequently used, about the size of a modern Xbox! Gasp! I know! It's mind-blowing that not everyone uses a 70lb monster for everyday use!
Wish you discussed Active/Passive PFC and its relation to UPS and sine waves (true sine, stepped/simulated sine waves)
YES! Something I have been wondering about for many years. ALL my components are on consumer level UPS's... does it shorten the life of the components?
These guy are two hard straight up thug pimps laying down some knowledge on us.
I used to go by the HARDOCP reviews, ill have to check this guy out, I went with HARDOCP because they torture tested supplies in a hot box for 24 hours, pulled them apart and inspected every single component, tested the claims of the manufacturers and called them on them when they were false. They even caused a couple of power supplies to catch fire during testing - obviously those were a fail. Unfortunately the guy running it went to work for Intel.
Hardware secrets is also gone, there are some sites that test psu pretty good still around.
I had a PSU blow up and take the whole PC with it once. Now I just buy Seasonic PSUs. Problem solved.
Their are a few good brands and if the OEM is quality who cares what the box days.
Speaking of weight reminded me of something a fellow who had been in the military liked to say "400 cycle iron weighs a lot less than 60 cycle stuff" referring to the weight of the respective transformer cores.
thank corsair for my premium PSU with a rattling fan
Get a New one on warranty, ez as that
@@Eqpesan i just sent it back and bought a seasonic. never corsair again lol. first one had breaking sata connectors and the second a rattling fan. avoid the tx850m
@@fabianreich1993 you realize seasonic makes corsaire
@@ryanmalin Only unit they make for Corsair these days is the AX850/1000.
is corsair cx550 modular any good or should i go for a seasonic m2ii 520?
Damn I'm glad y'all kept the ending I got a real laugh out of it 😂
I always thought efficiency rating just meant longevity. My 750 watt Corsair power supply is gold rated and it's powered my last 3 builds, and hopefully the 4th as well.
I believe that I'm actually overprovisioned because the trend in electronics is smaller more power efficient components.
Gordon, you're such a classy guy. You may be our only hope to save our community from the partisan AMD/Intel/Nvidia bickering that's destroying us.
Question : Why are some folks with high end power supplies ,and high end graphics cards getting humming caps/Coil whine ?
Manny Calavera the jihn did anver this inderectly. Modern gpu switch power so quicly and run such high frequences that it does course coil whine unless the psu is state of the art and even then there sometimes is that whine.
I must be a fancy pants... i own a corsair CX 650.
@Simple Tech it was on sale a long with an evga for the same price and rating... sooo corsair.
love the outtakes at the end!! subed
A legend and an expert in the field... being interviewed by a complete dunderhead.
Okaaaay
Bought an AX750 8-9years a go. The only part i have not upgraded through the years. It was not cheap but it's a high quality psu with 10years of warranty. Spending a bit more on a good psu is worth it imho
Same here, best 750PSU ever, it can easily handle a 1080 and a Ryzen 3600!
@@DeLaVeGaGR Running a 1080 and 1600 here :). Going to upgrade to 3000 serie soon though
Stop telling fibs, PSU efficiency isn't "pretty much a flat line", I've yet to see an efficiency curve that is.
There is a clear difference between the VS series and the higher end PSU's efficiency curve, and what I'm seeing is the drop off from peak efficiency to 100% load is effectively halved on the newer topology units, but it's still there and you still need to check them because there is still a lot of variance to that efficiency drop off between models.
Older topology PSU's which are often in the low end of the plus certification can drop a significant amount of efficiency from peak to 100% in the region of 4-5% while a gold or platinum PSU will only be around 2-3% (1% is a best case scenario most seem closer to 2%). On a 750W PSU running @100% load @90% efficiency draws ~834W for 84 Watts dissipated, while @88% draws ~853W that 2% efficiency drop equates to an additional ~20W of heat generated or 103W for the PSU. That same at platinum works out to only 60W of heat generated @92% efficiency (810W in for 750W out). Those small percentage gains on efficiency really make a big difference in heat at higher power draws.
So that 2% in the above example actually changes the amount of heat generated by the PSU by 23%, so over provisioning the PSU so that it stays at peak efficiency is demonstrably beneficial. The choice for efficiency has little to do with ROI and saving the planet, but rather limiting heat generation by the system especially when building a high end spec drawing high wattages.
The 50% rule of thumb still applies when configuring for your total system power draw, the newer topology PSU's spread that up to 65-70% (so 750W+ for a 500W system draw) or halve and add rule of thumb ((X/2)+X) for gold and above rating on high powered systems.
I love how the 20W magically turned into 103W lol
@@averydangerouscat7381
It's additional to the 84W, nothing magical
Yes. There is a clear difference between the efficiency curve of a VS (which uses a double forward front end) and a higher end PSU like a CX or RMx (which uses an LLC resonant mode topology). While the efficiency "curve" isn't truly "flat" on the newer PSU's, the 50% rule of thumb certainly doesn't apply to those PSUs.
This is a PSU with an old topology: img.purch.com/r/711x457/aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmJlc3RvZm1pY3JvLmNvbS9PL1cvNzcwNzIwL29yaWdpbmFsL1Jlc3VsdC0xNS04X0VmZmljaWVuY3lfR3JhcGgucG5n
87% efficient at 50% load and 82% efficient at 100% load. A significant drop.
Now here's a PSU that uses a more modern LLC topology:
img.purch.com/r/711x457/aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmJlc3RvZm1pY3JvLmNvbS9DL1AvNTY0MjE3L29yaWdpbmFsL1Jlc3VsdC0xNS04X0VmZmljaWVuY3lfR3JhcGguSlBH
Only a 2.5% drop going from 50% to 100% at 115% input (where a PSU tends to be less efficient. The 230V results are even better). Half that of the older PSU. That 2% efficiency savings is NOT going to give you ROI if you're paying for a PSU that's twice the size you need, just to hit "peak efficiency".
@@jonnyGURU
Sorry for the delayed response.
I specifically stated that the choice of efficiency has little to do with ROI but rather with heat generation. That 1.5% difference between peak and 100% for the RM550x you linked equates to 15% more power dissipation than at peak efficiency. At 92% for 550W that's a 47W heat dissipation while at 90.5% that's 57W dissipation a 10W difference on the 230V scale. For the 115V scale we see a peak of 91% and 88% which is double or 54W dissipation at peak vs 75W dissipation at 100%.
cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/pToDubt7TK5MTDSr7euyp8-650-80.png
Now this holds to the rule for 230V but is more affected with 115V input, 550W draw gets us close to the 92% peak efficiency (somewhere around 91.5%) with 230V but drops to about 89.5% on 110V so we'd probably want to consider a higher rated or another PSU which has a better efficiency at 550W on 115V.
The point being made here is that it isn't a 2% difference between 92 and 90% efficiency but a 20%+ difference in the amount of power needed to be dissipated. For 115V that unfortunately means sticking to the 50% rule of thumb for the most part or considering a platinum PSU especially for systems that will draw high power, and even more so for 24/7 systems.
Personally I select PSU's that have an eco or zero fan mode in the range where my system will be operating 90% of the time, which means not only less heat to dissipate, but less dust being drawn into the PSU to blanket components.
The low side of the efficiency curve isn't an issue if you are only running 86% and drawing 100W as that's only 16W to dissipate and no fan required and low heat on the components.
cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/TLCA92MLBeE84N9hT6LnAV-650-80.png
Consider bronze vs platinum @550W power draw, at 86% efficiency at 115V the heat dissipated is 90W for this PSU.
Compare that to this
cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/X7GZvurA7Y5gW4zK5zaDhG-650-80.png
at 550W at 115V @ 91.5% efficiency, which is 51W required to be dissipated.
Your total system power draw will dictate what level of PSU you need, the more power draw you have to dissipate, the more relevant efficiency becomes as you are likely running expensive GPU's and CPU's for that power draw. Just because newer PSU's have become better at efficiency as you approach 100%, doesn't mean you should ignore the power being dissipated and how that affects the PSU's operation and temps.
@@ImDembe
Not noise but heat, 2% efficiency drop isn't 2% of additional power dissipation (heat) it's 20% of additional heat from 90-88%. Noise is a consequence of fan speed increases to shift the extra heat out, but as fan speed increases dissipation doesn't track linearly so you'll hit max fan speed usually before 100% load, then thermals rise.
Optimally you still want significant overprovisioning in your PSU despite the improvements in efficiency @100% load, but it's not effectively a flat line as 2% is really 20% of 10% dissipation in a 90% efficient PSU at optimum.