I love SFF, but I'm not crazy -- I would never cram a productivity rig into a 10L case, but I don't understand why someone needs a 30L case and ATX motherboard when all they will end up using is a single PCIe slot and a couple of M.2 sockets/SATA ports. I'm convinced that 50% of decorative RGB fans are purchased simply to help fill up cases.
It drives me nuts to see my case half empty. Before I went ITX, I was always running some dumb SLI or Crossfire setup, plus a ton of hard drives and fans. Nowadays I have a big server case with 24 HDDs and an Ncase M1 with a dual 240mm rad loop. Quiet and powerful and SFF (but $$$). To me it’s worth the money to do something crazy, unique, and space efficient.
when doing air cooling in big cases you also have to deal with the issue of bypass air. i figured that most of the airflow just travels the path of least resistance around your parts instead of being forced through them because there is no other path. also wiring is the devil and should be avoided at all costs. all my storage is nvme, and the only cables in the case are power fans and front panel stuffs. custom cables so i dont have to cram a ton of excess into whatever nooks and crannies i can find. thats critical for sff.
Well I'm gonna need you to tell MB manufacturers to drop the price of their itx boards, ram manufacturers to make more low profile options, gpus to go back to 2-slot, and some of those sff companies *cough* louque *cough* to make better cases that justify their cost.
@@daftpunk672 i think itx boards are more expensive because they need more layers to get all the connectivity they have. they also tend to have more built in features than the larger boards. you cant just drop in a card if you need more ports (well you can if you use integrated graphics).
@@SpartanArmy117 its like underwear, the less material, the more expensive. of course i dont need a case machined from a solid billet of aluminum. sheet metal construction is fine. getting the more mainstream case manufactures to do things like sandwich cases and other layouts in the 12-16 liter range would be nice. i bought one of the last ncase m1s and have generally been happy with it despite the $200 price tag. the black anodized finish is just beautiful. metal on all six sides, no stupid plastic front panel, no stupid side window.
SFF has huge thermal and component choice constraints for sure. The reason why I went with SFF is (1) limited space and (2) being a student, once I graduate, I'd like to take my PC away with me in a traveling case to wherever I might end up next. And also I think SFF represents a cool philosophy. Components nowadays scale up power disproportionately with performance. On my laptop, I can underclock my CPU from a 45W power package to 22W while only losing at most 10% FPS in the game that I play most often. Even for big desktop GPUs, with proper undervolting, you can get similar performance at significantly reduced power consumption, therefore heat and noise as well. To me, sacrificing 10% FPS for >20% reduced power consumption and a much quieter system feels more like a win than increasing the 10% FPS which I cannot perceive in games.
i really like itx boards though. i upgrade frequently enough and am fine with just 2 sticks of ram and a single gpu. and a lot of those boards come with dual nvme slots. drives? what are those? things for your nas.
he seemed to make a big deal about how unrealistic transporting an sff build is. transporting a full size rig, or an especially chungus rig, is going to be a lot worse. you need to crate it and ship it separately, with insurance. my sff i can stick in a backpack and keep with me at all times. you especially want to take out your video card, a single edge bracket, slot and plastic clip are not a solid mounting point for a gpu because they keep making video cards more massive than what the form factor standard was designed for. same goes for large air coolers. either could rip your mobo to shreds or break your gpu.
I’ve got a 6900x and a 6800xt in a meshilicious: though my system doesn’t have any thermal issue, at all, I think Gordon is right: itx are way easier to get thermally wrong, plus the platform could be more limited in features. But they are really cool performance-dense little beasts… ps: I think Gordon is not considering dual chamber SFF cases
I have had a few disagreements with Gordon on the PC World channel; we argued about hardware, independent journalism to even Star Wars. But it's impossible to stay mad at him because he's right more often than not and funny as hell.
He has a point. I had a few SFF builds in a row, but now my latest PC I put in an MATX case and it has less noise and the fans run slower while having the same or better temps than before. Though if you need a SFF PC for space reasons I think they are still fine and better than laptops.
@@tbone2646 I had to compromise with motherboard a bit back. But otherwise yeah, you can throw same things in most cases that on mid-towers. And how many people actually need more than 2 or 3 expansion cards.
@@_Ekaros the motherboard compromise is due to the manufacturers not really providing many models to choose from - a perfect example of why the form factor needs more love!
Agreed, Micro ATX needs way more love, as for me it's the perfect balance between, size, performance, expandability, ease of working with it, choice in parts, and most importantly for people like myself who can only set so much aside for a PC, and have to make it last as long as possible, is the cost vs. SFF, and ATX/EATX builds.
I'm with Steve (thanks Steve!) on performance. If you're chasing fractions of a percent in overclocking or other enthusiast-level tweaks that can benefit from overengineering your cooling system, then full tower wins, but SFF is perfectly competent at getting the designed performance out of high end parts--even a 3080! That said, Gordon is right that SFF takes more planning and care because the point is that you don't have margins for error. You don't really need to worry about what partner card you buy in the 3080 lineup since a mid or full tower will most likely fit all the variants out there. CPU clearance height is generous. You can get higher wattage out of ATX power supplies for cheaper than SFX power supplies. Your tower definitely has more mounts for larger radiator panels in liquid builds. At the end of the day, SFF fills two niches--space constraints, and challenge builds. I was personally in the former, but now I'm the latter group. I build SFF for the challenge of cramming as much performance as possible into an unreasonably small footprint. If you don't find the challenge fun, stick with mid towers! But I'm very happy with my 2x radiator 3080 Ncase M1 custom loop. Was it hard to build? Very. But incredibly satisfying to see it come to fruition as a full custom loop high performance machine inside the footprint of a large toaster.
I have an SFF with RTX 3080 FE, Ryzen 9 5900x 64gb Ram. Looks great on my desk, it has RGB fans and works perfectly fine for all my gaming needs. Will definitely be building another one when i have my house.
What about low budget builds, like ones using Ryzen APUs, instead of GPUs? Surely those would be perfect candidates for SFF builds, because you don't have to worry about cooling the non-existent GPU?
i went from full sized nzxt Switch Eatx, to the bitfenix Prodigy (that started my trip down sff since i went the "cheap" by keeping my atx psu). ive now gone to a geeek a50s-- ZZAW C2 -- ZZAW B1 -- NFC S4M-C --- currently making a custom case based off the NFC O5L chasis.... i wanted the most challenging without introducing watercooling... and so far none of them have dissapointed me, besides maybe the nfc s4m-c but its mainly due to the fact all the good power supply solutions are no longer availible (dell 330w has been discontinued for a GaN variant that cost 2x what the discontinued model costed)
Ditto, I do both. 5900x and 6600XT in 10L now, though I can put the 6900XT in it. I just feel lazy to route my PSU cables for a bit. Once I get my PCIE4 riser I'll be doing further tuning.
@@BlissBatch Definitely yes, but you would still have to carefully plan around for 2 reasons. One is the budget: It is very hard to get your hands on SFF parts without spending a bit more than their normal sized counterparts. So planning around the desired budget will be trickier. Another is actually getting the right parts in the first place, as downsizing to the extreme (as possible with iGPU systems) requires exotic solutions such as DC-to-DC power supply. All of this depends on you far you would downsize; it is really easy to get stuff right around the 10L mark, but going to 5L or less requires a lot of consideration and prepping.
A very good example of a great SFF Case design is the sandwhich type. You're able to cool the parts effectively by way of negative air pressure fans from top & bottom pulling hot air out while the side panels passively intakes fresh air.
This is like a console fan telling you why PC's suck..... how would they know? Last I checked a SFX psu at 1000w was plenty even for a 12900KissmyasS and 3090. Cooling is simply how much air goes in/out per second. The size of the case doesn't matter, if its a big sealed black box with hot components inside....it's an oven. If its a 1Ft Square box with 1x 140mm fan in the front and another at the back, That's moving say 30cfm air per minute at 800rpm (so that its quiet) that means the entire box worth of air is being replaced every 2 seconds. If you have a big 900D case you need allot of fans to fully ventilate the case and prevent recirculation within it's volume. Edit: I have a raijintek metis with a 3950x cooled by a dark rock pro 4, Gigabyte B550i aorus pro, 32GB of ram and a TitanV, I have 2x 2TB sata SSD's for mass storage, 2x 1TB NVME for boot and games. Do tell me Gordon why I would need a bigger case just to hold more air. I also have a 750D with 4x GTX480's and an FX8350 and a 1600T2 psu, I know a thing or 2 about thermals.
Totally agree, but case in point there's way more investigation needed to find a good SFF case that just doesn't suck to build in, because they cheap out on serviceability due to manufacturing costs. Many ITX cases are the same one piece press-fit sheet metal garbage that is not able to be truly taken apart, unlike those that have metal frames that can be pulled apart, yet charge the same premium without any engineering put behind their product. So many companies screw up their case design, causing the infamous SFF oven effect. Many times they also throw thermodynamics out the window to chase the "extreme gamer" spaceship looking crap, or glass/closed front&side panel cases for the cool factor, ending up ruining the whole point of it all. And this is not restricted to SFF only, oh no. Nowadays they manage to screw up full ATX cases with the same design flaws or generally cheaping out, changing stuff for the sake of changing it. It's ridiculous lol But when it's done right, it's really amazing. I don't like to shill products but the NR200 definitely proves the point that SFF can be made with less compromises.
I have SFF because 1 - I like how it looks on my desk, and it doesn’t take a lot of space 2 - Makes it easy to bring into the living room for VR 3 - I can’t stand looking at all the wasted space inside a full tower anymore (Tying back to the first point) unless it has something like a full custom loop 4 - My S4M keeps me from spending more money on parts that I don’t need (I’ll never need more than 6/8 cores, and my 3060 ti is more than enough for me. That ~200W mark is usually where price/performance is really good). My thermals are great, and it’s very quiet on my desk compared to some extremely whiny full towers I’ve had. I do have to undervolt to keep those temps and noise levels in check, but only as low as it’ll go while keeping stock performance.
@@darcos7535 Nope, an old Corolla actually, lol. But I have been looking at getting a subcompact like a Fit (and of course Honda discontinues it in the US just as I decide I want one, and they simultaneously release an updated model overseas), but I refuse to pay 20% over MSRP for a used car
I mean, what *exactly* are your thermals? 'Cause I've seen lots of people say 80ºC is great, but for me that's *absolutely horrible* (Yeah, I'm crazy about thermals, nothing in my rig ever excedes 65ºC. Ever.)
While I have a full tower now, and agree with more or less everything said regarding the negatives about SFF, for almost a decade I brought my SFF through the best and worst times of my life. I originally built it with the intention to bring it to my friend's house every weekend because we always shared our consoles and bringing a console-sized PC was way easier than my first tower in 2013. While that never panned out, what happened instead is that I suddenly faced a ton of hard times in my life so moving was a necessity for many years. Every single time I'd have to couchsurf or go into a dinky room apartment I would be so thankful that I made a SFF. Given that I couldn't afford to have something non-repairable, a laptop was absolutely out of my reach and my only option was a tiny case that could be moved in a backpack or duffle bag. This PC has been with me through so many adventures and now that I'm somewhat stable I can finally stick to my cheapo full tower and reap the benefits. To everyone who builds SFF, I salute you. It doesn't matter if you do it for the challenge, the lack of desk/floor space, the portability, repairability, or like me, survivability, you all are the reason I was able to stay online and have fun for so many years. Thank you, SFF community for all you've helped me with, and Godspeed to any of your future meshalicious endeavours.
@@rurutuM In terms of usability, absolutely. The problem was that gaming laptops at the time, this was in 2014, were not at all up to spec compared to their desktop counterparts and moreover are MUCH harder to repair if anything went wrong. I had to make sure that whatever I had was either extremely reliable or able to be repaired hence why I stuck by with my SFF instead of selling it and getting a laptop instead. When it came to the monitor situation I often either borrowed them, used a tv where I could, bought a $5 900p one locally on craigslist, or at one point tried out one of those portable monitors but quickly realized it was better just to use a standing one and deal with the logistics later. Given the selection of gaming laptops today that are genuinely affordable I probably wouldn't do it again, but I did manage to make the SFF work given my circumstances.
I like mATX for a nice in-between that can take a larger GPU and most mATX motherboards tend to have a spare PCIe slot for a dedicated soundcard (though as time goes on I'm really finding myself shifting to USB based Sound Blaster cards) but not too many manufacturers are focusing on the mATX form factor in terms of cases. Mini-ITX doesn't leave me too many options for upgrading the build as I'm limited to 2 RAM slots, one PCIe 16X slot and maybe 4 SATA ports and 1 NVMe.
I love my tiny pc, I'm done having a 2001 Space oddessy Monolith pc under my desk getting in the way. Its now ON my desk looking amazing yet understated, reserved, small.
A good compromise between an SFF, and a ATX/EATX for me, has been Micro ATX, as I don't end up with as large of a case on my desk taking up so much space, and I don't end up having to work with something that's truly frustrating either, while still having some expandability, along with more choice of coolers, power supplies, and cases.
I think Gordon has a point, although he's being intentionally confrontational in making it. SFF is like RGB, you go for it because you want to not because it fills a need. If you want something with great cooling, that's way easier to build and maintain in a full-size case. If you want something small and portable, a laptop is way easier to handle than a SFF desktop + peripherals. The main reason to build a SFF system is because you just want a SFF system, because you think they're cool or they look good or you enjoy the challenge or you want to save desk space or whatever. That's the whole point of building your own PC, is to put something together that's customized to your taste.
That being said, there are actual examples where people need an SFF build because of the desk space it frees up, and even some where the vertical airspace it takes up could be a need fulfilled as well..... I personally would never build an SFF system, unless I was rich and wanted a second system somewhere to not take up a lot of space, because I could think of cool applications of where to put a secondary system, and how I would not want it to be at all a large system. (Which is a different application that the person who really does need a small system for limited desk space/ and//or vertical space.)
Def an argument for SFF. I have the Sliger Conswole. I pack an overclocked 8700k with LM, two ssds, two m.2s, a 1080ti, and a 850w platinum psu all into a case that is attached to the underside of my standing desk. Temps overclocked with a noctua nh-l9a are under 80c and GPU is always ice cold because it is drawing cool air on its own. I get the argument that it is harder to get the performance and you don't want to put the effort in. But that is why people modify cars, for the love of it. I want the challenge
Well said. I recently built a SFF PC for my living room as a secondary gaming device, the Define 7 Nano was the largest case I could fit in my entertainment center. While I would most likely never use a SFF build as my primary machine, the smaller size definitely can serve a purpose.
I disagree.. I NEED a small form factor build, and don't have one, so my computer is in the way of my room usage. If I could fit it into a lower shelf space, I would have a lot more room in my room. As someone who has the problem and not the solution, I will argue that small form factor is a real need and a lot of people do have it.
@@tsmspace I did it for space, height isn't an issue so I got the thermaltake tower 100 mini, it's only got a 26cm x 26cm footprint so it's saved me so much desk space compared to my old mid-tower.
What I found the two things I give up the most for mini ITX SFF build is expandability and over-clockability. If you don’t really need expansions nor do you really over-clock and just satisfied with default-out of the box performance, mini-ITX can be built to match mid-towers and full towers at default clocks and temparatures. As far as time, I spend as much time building a mid-tower than I did with SFF. Because I don’t really expand my PC after I build it, I don’t spend more time on it after it is build either. So, it’s a wash between SFF and mid/full towers. I seen people spend a ton of time on Full/Mid, specifically on custom cooling and adding mods, etc. Well, on SFX chassis you don’t really have room to do much, so you just make the decision to give up on those and move on. You’re practically just putting the build together and not needing to spend extra time trying to do anything else to it. But if you’re willing to give up expansions (and being able to really mod it to the sky) and you’re okay with not over-clocking the SFF PC, the one BIG thing you gain is how easy it is to move it around the house. I personally agree, if I travel… I will bring a gaming laptop. Who the heck wants to pack a monitor, a keyboard, mouse, etc in place of your personal carry-ones? But just in the house, when I am cleaning and needing to move the PC to clean around it etc, the mini-PC had save my back. My last full tower build weighed almost 80 lbs. I hate it when I had to carry it and move it even just a few feet so I can clean the room, then move it back. The mini ITX had made this so much easier on my body and back. I gladly give up the overclocking and expansion. For expanding capabilities, I made peace with it by just separating my computing needs into different computers: I have a separate gaming PC and a work computer. Both are SFF, both are build for their purposes so I don’t need to worry about building one big system that does everything. I have at least two that does their own thing and both are easy to carry around the house.
I like the mATX form factor as an in-between but less and less manufacturers are focusing on the form factor and most of the nice cases are made in full ATX form.
My SFF was built with leftover parts for the purpose of traveling with it, but when not traveling it lives in the workshop. Powerful enough to game (AAA barely) yet having no real value if something bad happens to it. I did pick up a handful of conversion video cables so I could use pretty much any monitor or TV at my destination and not have to pack a monitor. I've had too many issues with laptops in the past and for me are not worth the cost with such limited use in my daily life.
Absolutely, most laptops should NOT be used either for gaming or under a heavy workload, period. Some people pay big bucks for a properly cooled laptop, and I'm happy for them, but for the vast majority of mortals, you should stick with a desktop PC, even if it's a SFF PC.
"Coupe's suck... nobody wants to ride in the back!" As a former coupe-owner ... isn't that the whole point of driving a coupe? Well, that and looks, obviously, but when you drive a coupe, nobody is going to bother you with requests to drive them or their stuff around. And as a current Miata-owner, I think I've now perfected that approach to car-ownership. :D Re SFF: Other than the "isn't that thing neat?"-effect, I don't see the point. It's just so much easier and nicer to build in a proper case and if you have the space to put a SFF, monitor, mouse and keyboard, you'll surely have the space to put a regular size case. And for everything else, there's laptops - and I'm not talking ridiculously overpriced "gaming"-laptops, since even my puny and aging Lenovo ideapad with its i5 7200U and GF 940 is enough to play quite a few games from my library.
@@crashtestdummy87 Most men care too much about looking manly just so they can impress other men. A Miata looks perfectly fine as long as you dress the part, obviously you'll look weird if you're gorilla maxxing and driving such a car.
In my experience SFF sandwich mesh PCs actually have *lower* GPU temps than full size towers because they have their own airspace thats undisturbed by other components and they typically are either right next to a mesh panel or have an intake fan blowing directly at the GPU. It’s the CPU temps that tend to be bad in SFF builds.
Just built my very first. I have a O11DXL for my main and a Nr200p for my hackintosh. I really enjoyed building in it. Yes the 011 was so easy because of size but the Nr200p was fun.
Yes SFF are great only when you really need them. I have a O11XL for my main pc, and one little TU150 as a living room htpc. It wasn't bad building in it, but it was more fun building in the XL :D
I feel like mATX is pretty much perfect for most use cases. I have a video production mATX and have zero regrets. It's loaded with features in a reasonably small form factor that isn't ever going to leave the office.
@@christopherjames9843 My motherboard is just as capable as any ATX board. The only difference is that I'm missing an uneeded pcie 3.0 lane. No big whoop b/c I don't need it. It's a video production rig that is fully capable. Ryzen 5900x, 32GB RAM, NVIDIA 3080 (thermal pad modded), internal capture card, UHD/Blu-ray internal drive, an Icy Dock 6 SSD bay, 2 nvme drive (on the mobo) and a high capacity HDD for archive purposes all comfortably snug inside of a Silverstone TJ08-E case. Thermals are low and the rig is quiet. I game on it, I do special effects and video production work on it. I run virtual machines in VMWare for various projects. It's a beast with zero compromises. I built it a year ago and have no complaints.
SFF is more about your workspace than the performance of the PC itself. Im a pro motion graphics animator and I swore off full size ATX machines when it came to just moving things around, re-arranging the desk or office space - a little shoe box sized machine with powerful parts is the way to go!
just a question an actual question. Does you SFF build have extra pcie slots for SSD's or do you not need that much storage? You work with graphics so I would think you need storage but as someone not in that field I'm just curious. Or do you have a local server which you pull data off as you need it
@@imo098765 I don't need MASSIVE storage as I'm not an editor - I need fast storage and easily swappable for moving between computers/home/office. Most ITX motherboards have 4 x SATA ports for internal SSD's which is plenty for OS/cache/current projects with Dropbox (or 1 or 2 small M.2 drives are great too). When done, I delete from internal SSD and backup to EXTERNAL USB drives - which are more convenient for swapping/archive. As a sole operater I dont use a server (unless you consider Dropbox a server), its a home setup. Motherboard: Unlike ATX, you get no extra PCI slots - when you commit to ITX/SFF, you accept there is only one PCI slot on the motherboard - and that will be used by the GPU.
@@imo098765 I'll throw in my 2 cents (modified raijintek metis, R9 3950X, Dark rock pro 4, 32GB ram, TitanV, 2x NVME and 1x sata SSD). If I needed more storage I could have 2x 8TB NVME and 2x 8TB SSD's (QLC which sucks, but 4TB's are easily found with TLC) without modification. Plus you can always stack multiple sata SSD's as most ITX boards come with 4-5 ports. If you really need 24TB+ of storage you're probably looking at getting a NAS or fileserver anyway, It's a complete non issue. Ryzen comes with 24 pcie lanes from cpu anyway... 16gpu+4nvme+4chipset (for second NVME, ethernet, usb, sata etc all shared on that downlink) so whats the point of having a bigger motherboard?
Eh if you bring your PC to work it makes sense to have a SFF pc. But how often are you re-arranging your desk at home to justify an SFF? Sounds like a mental illness rather than a space problem
There was an EPYC mini ITX board, not sure about Threadripper. Although there are sub 20L SFF cases that support micro ATX and even ATX boards, so SFF Threadripper is technically doable these days, though maybe not advisable. 😅 Steve pretty much covered all the other points I would make in his rebuttal. Basically, for most for most mainstream consumer use cases - extreme OCers and people running physics labs in their basement probably don't qualify 😄 - an SFF build is fine - they just take a little more care in planning, can cost more for equivalent specs, and you have a more narrow range of parts to choose from. Well-designed SFF cases (like the NR200 Steve mentioned) can actually be easier to build in (really!) than some poorly designed mid-towers sometimes, as long as you stick to parts that aren't pushing size constraint limits. SFF is often worth the tradeoffs if you have limited desk space and/or want a build that's easier to ship/transport. I've done maybe half a dozen SFF builds now, and the performance sacrifice has been negligible vs larger builds. There are still plenty of reasons to need mid-tower and full-tower builds, but for *the average person* (e.g. most people aren't filling their cases with tons of hard drives anymore, and multi-GPU is largely dead outside of mining or HPC applications) SFF is a perfectly capable option. And if you just like/want to build in a large case, that's great, too. People often get defensive in the SFF vs ATX case debate, but there's nothing wrong with picking whatever suits your wants and needs the best, while respecting the fact that other people have valid wants and needs of their own. As a wise man once said, "be classy!", internet! 😎😁 _ziv rides off in a coupe_
Many times that nearly happened. That's like saying the SSD will replace the hard drive. It will to an extent but until SSDs beat the capacity of the largest HDD for the same money then it won't. APUs have already replaced cards such as HD 5870, simply no point in using that one any more, cheaper to use an APU due to the saving in the PSU. However it's only recently that APUs passed the performance of even the lowest old GPU. Things have moved on and current GPUs are more powerful than APUs. I don't see this changing, only that more needs are being met by APUs than before. You can game on them.
I like SFF for productivity/office/media PCs but for my main gaming rig? nope, never. I'm a big fan of chunky tower cases with lots of cooling and expansion options.
I've been gaming with a 3070+i9 in the a4-h20 [11 liter case] for the past few months, an 2070 super+i9 in a ghost s1 for a full year before this one, and I have no need for more cooling or expansions - does what it needs to do
Gordon, US homes are generally much larger than those here in Blighty. Your right, its a compromise to choose a SFF but it looks better on my desk, does not take up valuable domestic square footage and most importantly passes “the wife test”. I’m happy with my Meshlicious system running Flight Sim in 4K - It can get noisy and it will keep me warm in the winter. Respect your opinion but you ain’t always right! Enjoy your truck!
I had the reverse roadmap with my SFF opinion. I thought they were dumb and wanted the prototypical gaming PC. After hauling a midtower to a new residence for a few years in a row, I decided there's no need for such a big case. My rig is housed in a SilverStone FTZ-01E. I've got plenty of performance with an i9-9900KF and RTX 3070. I don't plan on going back to an ATX build anytime soon.
And I've had completely the opposite road map from you. After building in only SFF I completely hate it, because I don't move new residences every year.
@@levigoldson4242 Being able to bring my PC with me on road trips is a very nice convenience. I also don't need so many add-in cards anymore since onboard audio no longer sucks and ethernet is integrated.
It makes sense to build in mITX If I am not going to use the extra space. Sure, it may be more expensive, but it is not that expensive IMO if you are building a mid/high-end PC. I also think they look better than big cases.
I've had both SG13 and NR200 builds. One thing I really appreciate is how easy they are to clean. There simply is only so much space for dust to build up.
My fractal case I have 3 HDDs mount side ways in the back and 3 m.2 SSDs NVMe drives on the board and 1 sata SSD for random crap 😄 The space in my case for the front is taken up by water pump/reservoir plus radiator and fans all in use for a big case 😁
Own 5 SFF PCs, three itx and 2 tiny m93 Lenovo and given volume constraints where these PC sit, a tower isn't an option. Oh, over of them had 5800x and 3080 and one has a 6600xt and a 12400. Very potent gaming platforms, well built they don't heat too much. Yeah, towers are more convenient, but there are other factors to consider.
Using a NR200 with 5800X3d (Cooled with a Scythe Fuma 2b) and 3090... Able to run games without throttle at default setting. Even better if you use PBO to undervolt/oc it.
Generally I am an SFF fan... have had a node 304 system for the last 8 years, which has been my favorite build ever. However the power and thermal requirements of next gen high end gear has driven me back to a mid size (O11 Evo). At least it looks nice.
I think Steve’s and Gordon’s voices were switched at birth! Found this channel thru GN’s counterpart video. I so hope they do more stuff together. Gordon is f’n hilarious and awesome. Subscribed!
I use a Lian Li A4 H2O, which is only 11L in size. I won't put a 3090Ti and 12900K in. But how many people really need the hottest CPU and GPU? A 5900X and RTX3080 have zero problem to manage good thermal in the case. I think that kind of performance is enough for the majority of PC enthusiats.
clicked on the link because steve and gordon have great chemistry... after 25 years of pc building i just built my first SFF build! repurposed my 980ti and paired it with a 12400, budget mobo, and a used node202 case. cheap, it looks lovely in my stereo rack, and sips power while running nearly silent. 1080p couch gaming is effortless. it kicks ass. SFF has merit in some situs, and it's something to nerd out on. Gordon's views make sense when viewed through his lens. good video!
SFF is a leveled up building exercise. The bad builds aside, I equate a good SFF build with performance equivalent to a larger build that took less $ or mental effort to overcome case design and size constraints. Once you get on the keyboard & mouse, start staring into the display(s), it's a computing experience. I guess if someone wants to have a SFF build in their view it's fine.
For me, the Meshify 2 Compact is the perfect case size. I'm an air cooling person so I don't need the space for water cooling equipment, but I enjoy the extra space allowed by being an ATX tower. No unneeded stuff with everything I need, yet it still fits nicely on my desk. What can I say, I don't like change. ATX is what I know and what I love.
Yeah I feel the same way, I have one too. It seems to be the perfect balance between compact size and yet It's able to handle the highest tier parts. There doesn't seem to be much point to micro atx anymore, because atx cases have shrunk so much over the past decade that they're almost the same size.
I'm triggered. As a digital nomad, I love my SFF build. And no, I store it in the carry on, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT GORDON! Of course we're not stupid enough to put a PC in check in luggage. I do place my 4K monitor in check in though because I bubble wrap the living shit outta it. I use a Silverstone SG13, did many hours of research, it's just small enough for carry on, can fit a full size PSU, and some 3-fan GPUs though I wouldn't recommend that.
I'm with Gordon. Bubble wrapping the hell out of the monitor, then carrying on the SFF tower to stuff in the overhead shelf sounds like a bit of a faff... I'd probably prefer the Gordon method, a gaming laptop.. Plus, then you'd actually be able to enjoy it in flight too! But, each their own an all that.
I just finished building an SFF gaming PC in a Cooler Master RC-130-KKN1-Elite case, with a Ryzen 9 5900X on an ASUS Rog Strix B550-I Gaming mobo, a PowerColor Fighter RX 6700 XT, a full-size blu-ray optical drive, an SFX EVGA Supernova 850W 80+ Gold PSU, 32 GB RAM, a Corsair H60 AIO upgraded with a Phanteks T30x120 fan, and two Arctic PST 120mm Slim case fans on aftermarket fan mounting brackets (I had to tap some new mounting holes to the case frame). All inside a Cooler Master RC-130-KKN1-Elite mini-ITX case. I ran Cinebench R23 for 10 minutes and the CPU temperature never went above 66*C, with a multi-core score of 19,829 points. I offset undervolted the CPU by 0.1v, and capped the overclock frequency at 4000 Mhz. Normal CPU temperatures average 42*C doing normal computer tasks, but reaches 52*C playing Halo Infinite with the GPU reaching 72*C (after I played with the fan curve). It sucks that Halo Infinite is such a crappily designed game that it pushed temperatures to 98*C before I ended the game to tweak the fan setting (and it didn't even happen in a match, but while waiting to find a match!). I've had this PC running for over 48 hours now with no issues whatsoever. Love my little SFF build.
@@zivzulander I had experience building in a SilverStone SG05BB-Lite mini-ITX case prior to this buld, which is 2/3 the size of the Cooler Master case. I had to do a lot of modifications to that in order to keep the R7 3700X CPU cool, and the EVGA RTX 3060 XC OC GPU cooler. This too, has the same Corsair H60 AIO with the Phanteks T30x120 fan upgrade, even though it wasn't made to fit an AIO, but I made it work. Oh, I failed to mention that my apartment ambient temperature is 27*C (81*F).
There's always a middle-ground like a nice micro-atx build. Lots of neat matx sff sized cases lately which take full length gpu's and atx psu's - for example Jonsbo D30 and Asus AP201.
Cooler Master NR400 micro atx case is a gem. Tons of airflow, almost a clone copy of the full size NR600, which GN found to be an excellent flat mesh front airflow and thermals case, at way less money than the other cases it competes with at the top of the GN thermal charts. Plus the NR400 has a removable hard drive cage, unlike the NR600. Which is odd. And it helps with installing that 3rd front fan at the bottom, which is really the only downside of the NR600, an otherwise perfect case, and a budget champ considering how far above it's price class it punches, in terms of thermals. (cpu and gpu both )
I have an ATX build at the moment. I'm planning on putting together a nr200 build this year. As an enthusiast, I do find fun in having to plan out the build that optimizes size to performance. For bang for buck people, an ATX does make more sense (itx cases/psu/mobo do demand a premium). So in the end it comes down to different strokes for different folks.
My thing with SFF cases is having more desk real estate for standing desks. I don't like how leaving a case on the floor means the cables are either completely slack at ground level or almost fully stretched while standing. You can get a bigger standing desk, but big monitors are coming down in price and I myself have a 32" and a 48" on my desk already. No room for a tower.
As a coupe driver and SFF builder - my largest GPU is the 203mm long Evga 3060Ti that fits nicely in a 10 liter case with a 135mm tall air cooler with three separate air flow streams for motherboard components, GPU and PSU. Just how much larger does a case need to be once everything fits?
Holy guacamole, there's so many people that just decided to blow up and write paragraphs. It's an opinion, folks! And a valid one at that. SFF is a pointless pain in the ass, and a very limiting process. You can only use what fits, as opposed to just whatever you'd actually like or would perform better.
Nerve. Hit. Most of my builds were SFF and they always involved compromises, disappointments, and high costs. I switched to big boy cases and so many problems disappeared. And I also came to realize that the SFF appeal for me was purely aesthetic and neurotic. I always had room in my room for a bigger machine, but it just seemed like a waste of space to me. Why not have something small and cute? I was wrong. That space is so valuable for working on the machine and cooling it. Unless you are truly limited in space, don't limit yourself and your computer. Don't be a me.
"SFF appeal for me was purely aesthetic and neurotic" - feel the same right now. it's like torturing myself with unreasonably complicated task for unreasonably small outcome.
Small is beautiful and you can get the same performance as full size. The effort is worth it. If you like to boring and lazy go just stick with full size. The build is a lot more interesting, challenging, and it is a labor of love to build your mini-itx SFF that your like.
I think the only point that stands is that SFF requires more planning and care. Performance wise with the right case and cooling set up you're not held back whatsoever. Someone in the recent Intel OCing competition competed with their SFF system while living in a tropical country. I know people with a 64 core EPYC cpu in a 10L case, using it as a rendering server, can be cooled by a 280 AIO. I know people that regularly travel (inter)nationally with their SFF systems, the advantage for them is the better performance and longevity compared to a laptop. Plenty of setups that fit in a backpack. Power supply wise we've got the Corsair SF750 which is absolutely best in class, silent and high performance. There's a good number of people running 12900k and a 3090 builds on a SF750 without issues. There's higher wattage SFX/SFX-L PSUs coming soon too. I myself run a SFF system, 5900x and 3080 FE that I use for work, gaming, and streaming, and I have no qualls with it.
@@Simply_Scott Nice! I was running an intel i7 for several years in an SG-13 until the AIO pump failed. I built a Ryzen 3900x ATX system in the Cerberus X. If I were to go back to an ITX build, your case would be on my shortlist.
SFF is really dependant on your usecase and hardware, it will even cost you extra for the parts you will need. Also some people prefer bigger or smaller things. I use my giant case as a "fishbowl equvivalent" on my desk. Eye catching and pretty behind glass.
To hel support Steve's argument: The Ramses II that GN reviewed was huge and still one of the worst (if not THE worst) PC case we ever saw. Overall, I think SFF is fine, and especially if you wanna go with the minimalistic look, they are your best shot. Just be mindful of what you choose and what parts your gonna put in the case. Cramming a 12900K/7950X or the likes in a shoebox is bound to get toasty.
the moment you say "top tier components" i already know your setting yourself up for dissapointment. with the current trend of smaller is better, its basicly get a ryzen 5 or i5(non k) and x60ti or radeon x700 and your basicly set. people have the need for the most powerful in the smallest form factor at the moment and thats the real problem going on with thermals. it was so long ago where you saw "sff and itx" it was almost ALWAYS a low powered, low performance part, they usually had the looks to compliment the "not a gaming pc" style.
I've been building computers since the 2000s, I remember that the first time I change my case I had to buy larger one and my Mom ask me "Isn't technology suppose to make everything smaller and better with the pass of time, why are you buying a bigger case". I have to give this one to my Mom SFF, doesn't sucks; the technology around pc building sucks, needing bigger components for no reason and CPU/GPU requiring more thermal surface.
I bought an NZXT H1 V2. I just simply required something that had that small of a footprint to fit in my workspace. I was skeptical with the V1's design problem with the riser and the rumored V2s PSU issue highlighted by Steve, but it's been rock solid with a 5600X + EVGA 3080 for ~6months. I've had zero stability issues. If I dumped a 5900X in there maybe the higher CPU draw would push it over the edge, but I don't need a 5900X when the 70 odd watts the 5600X draws is way more than enough for gaming. I'm still GPU limited at 1440p@144Hz ultra details most of the time anyway. I did add a custom back panel and mounted two 140mm fans back there to aide in airflow, but that was not really necessary, just helped quiet it down a bit since the GPU fan doesn't spin up as high anymore. I could still probably grab an EVGA 850GM PSU if I needed another 100W for any reason, that might be something I need to do if I upgrade to Ryzen 7000 + RTX 4000 series down the road.
Steve’s point about the NR 200 being great is completely valid. I have an NR 200 and I just built my nephew, a micro ATX tower in a phanteks case. I think it was actually easier and less time-consuming to build and set up my system because every panel came off and I was just building it in a rectangular open chassis instead of a box. Thermals are also perfectly acceptable. My gigabyte 3080 TI with a very mediocre cooler for 360W stays at 71C. I think it would have problems if I was running an OCed Intel processor instead of a voltage tuned Ryzen.
i honestly just think it looks amazing. big towers with tons of empty space isn't my thing tbh. but it's hotter and a lot harder to build SFF so i see why most stay away. i like the challenge :) temps are not terrible either imo. custom loop on a 12700k and a 3080ti in a louqe ghost. cpu 30c gpu 60c both at idle. 60c idle is safe on a gpu and it's never exceeded 85. if it is throttling, it's definitely not noticeable in games.
My solution (for my super tower) is to simply get one with a solid side panel. No need to waste money on RGB's or to worry about unsightly empty spaces. It looks clean and simple.
Tech Buddha Versus Tech Jesus! I have to agree with Gordon on this issue. I have built SFF pcs and regular size ATX systems and I much prefer an ATX in a mid sized tower case over any SFF pc! The reasons are standard sized parts, ease of building, cooling, etc!
I have to go SFF when I’m building for my brother, because he’s in another country. I build it here and ship it to him. Making it more compact makes it much cheaper to ship. The first one I built was in a Node202. The one I’m currently amassing parts for will be in a NR200 because that Node really was a pain in the ass.
I'd say there are only two valid reasons for going SFF: You think it's cool to make a PC as small as possible, or you have a space constraint where you're installing the machine. In the latter case, you still need to consider whether the space you're planning to use is large enough that the machine will have access to fresh air anyway. Building an SFF machine, unless you're specifically doing it for a challenge, is just a bad idea. On top of all the usual concerns with compatibility and staying within your parts budget, you also have to consider the physical dimensions of every part from graphics card, especially custom cards with excessive furniture, to RAM and coolers. You have to get your build order exactly right so you don't block connectors you need later in the build, and your airflow paths become far more complicated. If dust gets in, you may need to disassemble the thing to get it out and adding dust filters further compromises performance you've already compromised by putting hot electronics very close together. God help you if you're buying all the parts online and relying on the published specs to be sure everything will fit. TL/DR: Gordon is putting it out.
Travelling with a neat small box for demos is far more impressive than lugging an ATX tower. Gordon's wrong about performance laptops, they don't last as long, have limited upgrade-ability, are expensive to replace keyboards on and any integrated box puts you at the mercy of the weakest link in the component chain.
@The Crazy Slav Yeah if you are using a G processor then SFF is straightforward and makes sense to keep it small. It stops making sense and becomes a 'challenge' done for the fun of it when you want to pack massive GPU and cooling into the tiny case. Then you must spend a fortune on a tiny but powerful PSU and be really precise about your component selection. Some people enjoy that.
@@RobBCactive Except he's right. Between transporting a laptop and an SFF build with the monitor, mouse keyboard and audio devices, it's the latter which has a higher chance of breaking. Never mind the ease of deployment - you can use a laptop wherever, as long as you can keep it charged. With an SFF build you need a place to set everything up. And let's not talk about price because pretty much everything SFF is very expensive.
Great video, I helped my friend with a SFF build because it had to live in the living room and needed to be discrete for the partner approval. It was a pain in the ass. And then I wanted to build my own NAS and got a deal on a used mATX asrock taichai & Threadripper combo. Unfortunately matx cases with hard drive support is hard. There was a fractal mini that got discontinued. I ended up with a mionix case which would have been fine with a normal matx, but the Threadripper matx was a rash, got low profile sata cables to help, but not worth it. Snagged a used with a define r6, transplanted everything, never looked back.
I have been building computers for more than 30 years now and everytime people ask me to build a SFF because they are so "cute" I die a little on the inside 😜 They cost more, they will perform worse, limited storage space and limited choices among ITX boards, graphics cards etc. Gordon is my hero!
I hate this type of comment as if the technology are same as 30 years and still regressive. ssf now better than ever, as a composer and musician, having sff pc is beneficial for me. imagine you're working commercials composer have to carry around powerful pc to get link up and live recording from studio to studio. the solution buy a mac mini? mini pc? or laptop? some computer form factors are very limit to upgrade, let alone apple computer, mac pro and studio can't even have beneficial for that.
The first thing that discourage most of the people is limited choice when it comes to motherboards and power supplies. And lot of the sff cases that can fit those quiet 3+slot graphics cards have almost the same footprint as midi towers...
VIA kept the ITX, Mini ITX, Pico ITX and Nano ITX form factors alive until Mini ITX became mainstream. Wish VIA could have become a competitor to AMD and Intel as we could have used them in a more consumer friendly market. I always liked SFF builds. I was building Flex ATX builds almost as small as the smallest Mini ITX builds today. Great vid and content :)
When I was moving to a new apartment and was faced with having to move my giant 50+ lb full tower (which I had only used because "maybe I'll want a bunch of hard drives or space for two GPUs"), that was the exact moment I got SFF-pilled. Moved all my hard drives to an inexpensive external enclosure, and never looked back. Personally, I don't see myself ever building a personal machine in something over 25L ever again. It's nice having your PC on your desk instead of the floor.
I’m currently working on a 3d printed Sff style case. It fits m-atx board, full size psu, 360mm radiator, and any gpu under 125mm height. Total size 410x290x224mm.
IF your only goal is to make the most powerful machine you can...sure build a tower. I like my small machine, it's on a tiny shelf behind one of my monitors. I built a reasonable machine fairly middle of the road, it's everything I need it to be. I don't have to work on it much...because I'm a computer user, not a reviewer. More power doesn't mean best.
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
I love SFF, but I'm not crazy -- I would never cram a productivity rig into a 10L case, but I don't understand why someone needs a 30L case and ATX motherboard when all they will end up using is a single PCIe slot and a couple of M.2 sockets/SATA ports. I'm convinced that 50% of decorative RGB fans are purchased simply to help fill up cases.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I see so many builds exactly like that.
It drives me nuts to see my case half empty. Before I went ITX, I was always running some dumb SLI or Crossfire setup, plus a ton of hard drives and fans.
Nowadays I have a big server case with 24 HDDs and an Ncase M1 with a dual 240mm rad loop. Quiet and powerful and SFF (but $$$). To me it’s worth the money to do something crazy, unique, and space efficient.
when doing air cooling in big cases you also have to deal with the issue of bypass air. i figured that most of the airflow just travels the path of least resistance around your parts instead of being forced through them because there is no other path. also wiring is the devil and should be avoided at all costs. all my storage is nvme, and the only cables in the case are power fans and front panel stuffs. custom cables so i dont have to cram a ton of excess into whatever nooks and crannies i can find. thats critical for sff.
Well I'm gonna need you to tell MB manufacturers to drop the price of their itx boards, ram manufacturers to make more low profile options, gpus to go back to 2-slot, and some of those sff companies *cough* louque *cough* to make better cases that justify their cost.
@@daftpunk672 i think itx boards are more expensive because they need more layers to get all the connectivity they have. they also tend to have more built in features than the larger boards. you cant just drop in a card if you need more ports (well you can if you use integrated graphics).
09:10 is the best. hahaha, really fun video. Love this. Thanks for letting me join!
Follow up with a small form factor build to change his mind.
next content: sff
Frolicking is highly overrated :D
Life is fleeting lol
Thanks, Steve. Do you count the NR200 as SFF? If so, then Gordon is wrong.
Cooling becomes more of an issue when you start getting into
i dont think id go any smaller than 12l unless its like a htpc or other low-to-mid performance station.
@@SpartanArmy117 its like underwear, the less material, the more expensive.
of course i dont need a case machined from a solid billet of aluminum. sheet metal construction is fine. getting the more mainstream case manufactures to do things like sandwich cases and other layouts in the 12-16 liter range would be nice. i bought one of the last ncase m1s and have generally been happy with it despite the $200 price tag. the black anodized finish is just beautiful. metal on all six sides, no stupid plastic front panel, no stupid side window.
Gordon collab videos are always gems.
Steve led me to some content gold. Thank you Steve
SFF has huge thermal and component choice constraints for sure. The reason why I went with SFF is (1) limited space and (2) being a student, once I graduate, I'd like to take my PC away with me in a traveling case to wherever I might end up next.
And also I think SFF represents a cool philosophy. Components nowadays scale up power disproportionately with performance. On my laptop, I can underclock my CPU from a 45W power package to 22W while only losing at most 10% FPS in the game that I play most often. Even for big desktop GPUs, with proper undervolting, you can get similar performance at significantly reduced power consumption, therefore heat and noise as well.
To me, sacrificing 10% FPS for >20% reduced power consumption and a much quieter system feels more like a win than increasing the 10% FPS which I cannot perceive in games.
yeah same here, i moved a lot and SFF was handy
but i also have a lightweight laptop for everything else
i really like itx boards though. i upgrade frequently enough and am fine with just 2 sticks of ram and a single gpu. and a lot of those boards come with dual nvme slots. drives? what are those? things for your nas.
he seemed to make a big deal about how unrealistic transporting an sff build is. transporting a full size rig, or an especially chungus rig, is going to be a lot worse. you need to crate it and ship it separately, with insurance. my sff i can stick in a backpack and keep with me at all times.
you especially want to take out your video card, a single edge bracket, slot and plastic clip are not a solid mounting point for a gpu because they keep making video cards more massive than what the form factor standard was designed for. same goes for large air coolers. either could rip your mobo to shreds or break your gpu.
I have a mid tower but after going to college and having to move it a few times, Ive decided to build a SFF this summer.
100%, undervolting is awesome. Skylake-class chips are very stable.
I’ve got a 6900x and a 6800xt in a meshilicious: though my system doesn’t have any thermal issue, at all, I think Gordon is right: itx are way easier to get thermally wrong, plus the platform could be more limited in features. But they are really cool performance-dense little beasts… ps: I think Gordon is not considering dual chamber SFF cases
gonna have to side with gordon here, SFF suck and you should feel bad for building one
@@RazorSkinned86 LOL
@@RazorSkinned86 🤣
@@RazorSkinned86 I feel bad… for you
i got the same case but i went with asus's crosshair 7 and my riser problem is hell
I have had a few disagreements with Gordon on the PC World channel; we argued about hardware, independent journalism to even Star Wars. But it's impossible to stay mad at him because he's right more often than not and funny as hell.
He has a point. I had a few SFF builds in a row, but now my latest PC I put in an MATX case and it has less noise and the fans run slower while having the same or better temps than before. Though if you need a SFF PC for space reasons I think they are still fine and better than laptops.
I don't know why MATX doesn't get more love - it's like the smallest you can go before you have to start making compromises
@@tbone2646 I had to compromise with motherboard a bit back. But otherwise yeah, you can throw same things in most cases that on mid-towers. And how many people actually need more than 2 or 3 expansion cards.
@@_Ekaros the motherboard compromise is due to the manufacturers not really providing many models to choose from - a perfect example of why the form factor needs more love!
did you undervolt to manage the temp..?
Agreed, Micro ATX needs way more love, as for me it's the perfect balance between, size, performance, expandability, ease of working with it, choice in parts, and most importantly for people like myself who can only set so much aside for a PC, and have to make it last as long as possible, is the cost vs. SFF, and ATX/EATX builds.
I'm with Steve (thanks Steve!) on performance. If you're chasing fractions of a percent in overclocking or other enthusiast-level tweaks that can benefit from overengineering your cooling system, then full tower wins, but SFF is perfectly competent at getting the designed performance out of high end parts--even a 3080! That said, Gordon is right that SFF takes more planning and care because the point is that you don't have margins for error. You don't really need to worry about what partner card you buy in the 3080 lineup since a mid or full tower will most likely fit all the variants out there. CPU clearance height is generous. You can get higher wattage out of ATX power supplies for cheaper than SFX power supplies. Your tower definitely has more mounts for larger radiator panels in liquid builds.
At the end of the day, SFF fills two niches--space constraints, and challenge builds. I was personally in the former, but now I'm the latter group. I build SFF for the challenge of cramming as much performance as possible into an unreasonably small footprint. If you don't find the challenge fun, stick with mid towers! But I'm very happy with my 2x radiator 3080 Ncase M1 custom loop. Was it hard to build? Very. But incredibly satisfying to see it come to fruition as a full custom loop high performance machine inside the footprint of a large toaster.
I have an SFF with RTX 3080 FE, Ryzen 9 5900x 64gb Ram. Looks great on my desk, it has RGB fans and works perfectly fine for all my gaming needs.
Will definitely be building another one when i have my house.
What about low budget builds, like ones using Ryzen APUs, instead of GPUs? Surely those would be perfect candidates for SFF builds, because you don't have to worry about cooling the non-existent GPU?
i went from full sized nzxt Switch Eatx, to the bitfenix Prodigy (that started my trip down sff since i went the "cheap" by keeping my atx psu).
ive now gone to a geeek a50s-- ZZAW C2 -- ZZAW B1 -- NFC S4M-C --- currently making a custom case based off the NFC O5L chasis....
i wanted the most challenging without introducing watercooling... and so far none of them have dissapointed me, besides maybe the nfc s4m-c but its mainly due to the fact all the good power supply solutions are no longer availible (dell 330w has been discontinued for a GaN variant that cost 2x what the discontinued model costed)
Ditto, I do both. 5900x and 6600XT in 10L now, though I can put the 6900XT in it. I just feel lazy to route my PSU cables for a bit. Once I get my PCIE4 riser I'll be doing further tuning.
@@BlissBatch Definitely yes, but you would still have to carefully plan around for 2 reasons. One is the budget: It is very hard to get your hands on SFF parts without spending a bit more than their normal sized counterparts. So planning around the desired budget will be trickier. Another is actually getting the right parts in the first place, as downsizing to the extreme (as possible with iGPU systems) requires exotic solutions such as DC-to-DC power supply. All of this depends on you far you would downsize; it is really easy to get stuff right around the 10L mark, but going to 5L or less requires a lot of consideration and prepping.
A very good example of a great SFF Case design is the sandwhich type. You're able to cool the parts effectively by way of negative air pressure fans from top & bottom pulling hot air out while the side panels passively intakes fresh air.
literally almost went off the video when the PCworld logo came up XD
I want an SFF as a secondary system for when my son comes to visit so we can set up at the same desk for coop gaming.
This is like a console fan telling you why PC's suck..... how would they know?
Last I checked a SFX psu at 1000w was plenty even for a 12900KissmyasS and 3090.
Cooling is simply how much air goes in/out per second.
The size of the case doesn't matter, if its a big sealed black box with hot components inside....it's an oven.
If its a 1Ft Square box with 1x 140mm fan in the front and another at the back, That's moving say 30cfm air per minute at 800rpm (so that its quiet) that means the entire box worth of air is being replaced every 2 seconds.
If you have a big 900D case you need allot of fans to fully ventilate the case and prevent recirculation within it's volume.
Edit: I have a raijintek metis with a 3950x cooled by a dark rock pro 4, Gigabyte B550i aorus pro, 32GB of ram and a TitanV, I have 2x 2TB sata SSD's for mass storage, 2x 1TB NVME for boot and games.
Do tell me Gordon why I would need a bigger case just to hold more air.
I also have a 750D with 4x GTX480's and an FX8350 and a 1600T2 psu, I know a thing or 2 about thermals.
Totally agree, but case in point there's way more investigation needed to find a good SFF case that just doesn't suck to build in, because they cheap out on serviceability due to manufacturing costs. Many ITX cases are the same one piece press-fit sheet metal garbage that is not able to be truly taken apart, unlike those that have metal frames that can be pulled apart, yet charge the same premium without any engineering put behind their product.
So many companies screw up their case design, causing the infamous SFF oven effect.
Many times they also throw thermodynamics out the window to chase the "extreme gamer" spaceship looking crap, or glass/closed front&side panel cases for the cool factor, ending up ruining the whole point of it all.
And this is not restricted to SFF only, oh no. Nowadays they manage to screw up full ATX cases with the same design flaws or generally cheaping out, changing stuff for the sake of changing it. It's ridiculous lol
But when it's done right, it's really amazing.
I don't like to shill products but the NR200 definitely proves the point that SFF can be made with less compromises.
Gordens hyperbolic persona twins well with Steve's pragmatic sarcasm
This is like MARVEL vs. DC. I love ❤️ both of there Tech Channel’s. Always learn something new. Plus the Tech Community is awesome 😎.
I have SFF because
1 - I like how it looks on my desk, and it doesn’t take a lot of space
2 - Makes it easy to bring into the living room for VR
3 - I can’t stand looking at all the wasted space inside a full tower anymore (Tying back to the first point) unless it has something like a full custom loop
4 - My S4M keeps me from spending more money on parts that I don’t need (I’ll never need more than 6/8 cores, and my 3060 ti is more than enough for me. That ~200W mark is usually where price/performance is really good).
My thermals are great, and it’s very quiet on my desk compared to some extremely whiny full towers I’ve had. I do have to undervolt to keep those temps and noise levels in check, but only as low as it’ll go while keeping stock performance.
But do you drive a coupe?
@@darcos7535
Nope, an old Corolla actually, lol. But I have been looking at getting a subcompact like a Fit (and of course Honda discontinues it in the US just as I decide I want one, and they simultaneously release an updated model overseas), but I refuse to pay 20% over MSRP for a used car
I mean, what *exactly* are your thermals? 'Cause I've seen lots of people say 80ºC is great, but for me that's *absolutely horrible* (Yeah, I'm crazy about thermals, nothing in my rig ever excedes 65ºC. Ever.)
@@RegularNobodyII
Never exceeds 79C, which should be perfectly safe long-term. Could go lower but I value noise over thermals
While I have a full tower now, and agree with more or less everything said regarding the negatives about SFF, for almost a decade I brought my SFF through the best and worst times of my life. I originally built it with the intention to bring it to my friend's house every weekend because we always shared our consoles and bringing a console-sized PC was way easier than my first tower in 2013. While that never panned out, what happened instead is that I suddenly faced a ton of hard times in my life so moving was a necessity for many years. Every single time I'd have to couchsurf or go into a dinky room apartment I would be so thankful that I made a SFF. Given that I couldn't afford to have something non-repairable, a laptop was absolutely out of my reach and my only option was a tiny case that could be moved in a backpack or duffle bag. This PC has been with me through so many adventures and now that I'm somewhat stable I can finally stick to my cheapo full tower and reap the benefits.
To everyone who builds SFF, I salute you. It doesn't matter if you do it for the challenge, the lack of desk/floor space, the portability, repairability, or like me, survivability, you all are the reason I was able to stay online and have fun for so many years. Thank you, SFF community for all you've helped me with, and Godspeed to any of your future meshalicious endeavours.
wouldn't a laptop be better since you don't need a desk for monitor and mouse/keyboard?
@@rurutuM In terms of usability, absolutely. The problem was that gaming laptops at the time, this was in 2014, were not at all up to spec compared to their desktop counterparts and moreover are MUCH harder to repair if anything went wrong. I had to make sure that whatever I had was either extremely reliable or able to be repaired hence why I stuck by with my SFF instead of selling it and getting a laptop instead. When it came to the monitor situation I often either borrowed them, used a tv where I could, bought a $5 900p one locally on craigslist, or at one point tried out one of those portable monitors but quickly realized it was better just to use a standing one and deal with the logistics later. Given the selection of gaming laptops today that are genuinely affordable I probably wouldn't do it again, but I did manage to make the SFF work given my circumstances.
I like mATX for a nice in-between that can take a larger GPU and most mATX motherboards tend to have a spare PCIe slot for a dedicated soundcard (though as time goes on I'm really finding myself shifting to USB based Sound Blaster cards) but not too many manufacturers are focusing on the mATX form factor in terms of cases. Mini-ITX doesn't leave me too many options for upgrading the build as I'm limited to 2 RAM slots, one PCIe 16X slot and maybe 4 SATA ports and 1 NVMe.
I love my tiny pc, I'm done having a 2001 Space oddessy Monolith pc under my desk getting in the way. Its now ON my desk looking amazing yet understated, reserved, small.
A good compromise between an SFF, and a ATX/EATX for me, has been Micro ATX, as I don't end up with as large of a case on my desk taking up so much space, and I don't end up having to work with something that's truly frustrating either, while still having some expandability, along with more choice of coolers, power supplies, and cases.
I think Gordon has a point, although he's being intentionally confrontational in making it. SFF is like RGB, you go for it because you want to not because it fills a need. If you want something with great cooling, that's way easier to build and maintain in a full-size case. If you want something small and portable, a laptop is way easier to handle than a SFF desktop + peripherals. The main reason to build a SFF system is because you just want a SFF system, because you think they're cool or they look good or you enjoy the challenge or you want to save desk space or whatever. That's the whole point of building your own PC, is to put something together that's customized to your taste.
That being said, there are actual examples where people need an SFF build because of the desk space it frees up, and even some where the vertical airspace it takes up could be a need fulfilled as well..... I personally would never build an SFF system, unless I was rich and wanted a second system somewhere to not take up a lot of space, because I could think of cool applications of where to put a secondary system, and how I would not want it to be at all a large system. (Which is a different application that the person who really does need a small system for limited desk space/ and//or vertical space.)
Def an argument for SFF. I have the Sliger Conswole. I pack an overclocked 8700k with LM, two ssds, two m.2s, a 1080ti, and a 850w platinum psu all into a case that is attached to the underside of my standing desk. Temps overclocked with a noctua nh-l9a are under 80c and GPU is always ice cold because it is drawing cool air on its own. I get the argument that it is harder to get the performance and you don't want to put the effort in. But that is why people modify cars, for the love of it. I want the challenge
Well said. I recently built a SFF PC for my living room as a secondary gaming device, the Define 7 Nano was the largest case I could fit in my entertainment center. While I would most likely never use a SFF build as my primary machine, the smaller size definitely can serve a purpose.
I disagree.. I NEED a small form factor build, and don't have one, so my computer is in the way of my room usage. If I could fit it into a lower shelf space, I would have a lot more room in my room. As someone who has the problem and not the solution, I will argue that small form factor is a real need and a lot of people do have it.
@@tsmspace I did it for space, height isn't an issue so I got the thermaltake tower 100 mini, it's only got a 26cm x 26cm footprint so it's saved me so much desk space compared to my old mid-tower.
What I found the two things I give up the most for mini ITX SFF build is expandability and over-clockability. If you don’t really need expansions nor do you really over-clock and just satisfied with default-out of the box performance, mini-ITX can be built to match mid-towers and full towers at default clocks and temparatures.
As far as time, I spend as much time building a mid-tower than I did with SFF. Because I don’t really expand my PC after I build it, I don’t spend more time on it after it is build either. So, it’s a wash between SFF and mid/full towers. I seen people spend a ton of time on Full/Mid, specifically on custom cooling and adding mods, etc. Well, on SFX chassis you don’t really have room to do much, so you just make the decision to give up on those and move on. You’re practically just putting the build together and not needing to spend extra time trying to do anything else to it.
But if you’re willing to give up expansions (and being able to really mod it to the sky) and you’re okay with not over-clocking the SFF PC, the one BIG thing you gain is how easy it is to move it around the house. I personally agree, if I travel… I will bring a gaming laptop. Who the heck wants to pack a monitor, a keyboard, mouse, etc in place of your personal carry-ones?
But just in the house, when I am cleaning and needing to move the PC to clean around it etc, the mini-PC had save my back. My last full tower build weighed almost 80 lbs. I hate it when I had to carry it and move it even just a few feet so I can clean the room, then move it back. The mini ITX had made this so much easier on my body and back. I gladly give up the overclocking and expansion.
For expanding capabilities, I made peace with it by just separating my computing needs into different computers: I have a separate gaming PC and a work computer. Both are SFF, both are build for their purposes so I don’t need to worry about building one big system that does everything. I have at least two that does their own thing and both are easy to carry around the house.
I like the mATX form factor as an in-between but less and less manufacturers are focusing on the form factor and most of the nice cases are made in full ATX form.
Overclocking is realistically overrated, and undervolting is far more important in today's world.
@@svn5994 i agree, the cpu and gpu are already clocked pretty much as high as possible from the factory now
My SFF was built with leftover parts for the purpose of traveling with it, but when not traveling it lives in the workshop. Powerful enough to game (AAA barely) yet having no real value if something bad happens to it. I did pick up a handful of conversion video cables so I could use pretty much any monitor or TV at my destination and not have to pack a monitor.
I've had too many issues with laptops in the past and for me are not worth the cost with such limited use in my daily life.
Absolutely, most laptops should NOT be used either for gaming or under a heavy workload, period. Some people pay big bucks for a properly cooled laptop, and I'm happy for them, but for the vast majority of mortals, you should stick with a desktop PC, even if it's a SFF PC.
"Coupe's suck... nobody wants to ride in the back!"
As a former coupe-owner ... isn't that the whole point of driving a coupe? Well, that and looks, obviously, but when you drive a coupe, nobody is going to bother you with requests to drive them or their stuff around. And as a current Miata-owner, I think I've now perfected that approach to car-ownership. :D
Re SFF: Other than the "isn't that thing neat?"-effect, I don't see the point. It's just so much easier and nicer to build in a proper case and if you have the space to put a SFF, monitor, mouse and keyboard, you'll surely have the space to put a regular size case. And for everything else, there's laptops - and I'm not talking ridiculously overpriced "gaming"-laptops, since even my puny and aging Lenovo ideapad with its i5 7200U and GF 940 is enough to play quite a few games from my library.
a miata is a girl's car, most men don't want to be seen in one
If you own a large van people keep asking you to move furniture for them.
@@crashtestdummy87 Most men care too much about looking manly just so they can impress other men. A Miata looks perfectly fine as long as you dress the part, obviously you'll look weird if you're gorilla maxxing and driving such a car.
As a college student sff is great since I can move around easier, but once I get my own place I'll return to ATX.
Love SFF, love efficiency of space power etc.
Hard to be efficient with the new graphics card coming out though
In my experience SFF sandwich mesh PCs actually have *lower* GPU temps than full size towers because they have their own airspace thats undisturbed by other components and they typically are either right next to a mesh panel or have an intake fan blowing directly at the GPU. It’s the CPU temps that tend to be bad in SFF builds.
Sff has gotten so much better in the last couple years!
Just built my very first. I have a O11DXL for my main and a Nr200p for my hackintosh.
I really enjoyed building in it. Yes the 011 was so easy because of size but the Nr200p was fun.
I love my 011. Can fit in alot of fans and a big beefy cooler
Yes SFF are great only when you really need them.
I have a O11XL for my main pc, and one little TU150 as a living room htpc.
It wasn't bad building in it, but it was more fun building in the XL :D
The nr200p is barely even sff, I'd call it a very small pc tower.
@@frankytanky5076 It's under 20 liters, so it's sff even for high Optimum Tech standards!
@@simoSLJ89NR200P has the perfect size imo
I feel like mATX is pretty much perfect for most use cases. I have a video production mATX and have zero regrets. It's loaded with features in a reasonably small form factor that isn't ever going to leave the office.
Not as small as ITX nor as capable as ATX. The motherboards tend to be of poorer quality. Only plus is four ram slots.
@@christopherjames9843 My motherboard is just as capable as any ATX board. The only difference is that I'm missing an uneeded pcie 3.0 lane. No big whoop b/c I don't need it. It's a video production rig that is fully capable. Ryzen 5900x, 32GB RAM, NVIDIA 3080 (thermal pad modded), internal capture card, UHD/Blu-ray internal drive, an Icy Dock 6 SSD bay, 2 nvme drive (on the mobo) and a high capacity HDD for archive purposes all comfortably snug inside of a Silverstone TJ08-E case. Thermals are low and the rig is quiet. I game on it, I do special effects and video production work on it. I run virtual machines in VMWare for various projects. It's a beast with zero compromises. I built it a year ago and have no complaints.
@@christopherjames9843 More capable than ITX and smaller than ATX. The motherboards tend to be cheaper. Another plus is four ram slots.
SFF is more about your workspace than the performance of the PC itself. Im a pro motion graphics animator and I swore off full size ATX machines when it came to just moving things around, re-arranging the desk or office space - a little shoe box sized machine with powerful parts is the way to go!
just a question an actual question.
Does you SFF build have extra pcie slots for SSD's or do you not need that much storage? You work with graphics so I would think you need storage but as someone not in that field I'm just curious.
Or do you have a local server which you pull data off as you need it
@@imo098765 I don't need MASSIVE storage as I'm not an editor - I need fast storage and easily swappable for moving between computers/home/office.
Most ITX motherboards have 4 x SATA ports for internal SSD's which is plenty for OS/cache/current projects with Dropbox (or 1 or 2 small M.2 drives are great too). When done, I delete from internal SSD and backup to EXTERNAL USB drives - which are more convenient for swapping/archive. As a sole operater I dont use a server (unless you consider Dropbox a server), its a home setup.
Motherboard: Unlike ATX, you get no extra PCI slots - when you commit to ITX/SFF, you accept there is only one PCI slot on the motherboard - and that will be used by the GPU.
@@imo098765 I'll throw in my 2 cents (modified raijintek metis, R9 3950X, Dark rock pro 4, 32GB ram, TitanV, 2x NVME and 1x sata SSD).
If I needed more storage I could have 2x 8TB NVME and 2x 8TB SSD's (QLC which sucks, but 4TB's are easily found with TLC) without modification.
Plus you can always stack multiple sata SSD's as most ITX boards come with 4-5 ports.
If you really need 24TB+ of storage you're probably looking at getting a NAS or fileserver anyway, It's a complete non issue.
Ryzen comes with 24 pcie lanes from cpu anyway... 16gpu+4nvme+4chipset (for second NVME, ethernet, usb, sata etc all shared on that downlink) so whats the point of having a bigger motherboard?
Eh if you bring your PC to work it makes sense to have a SFF pc. But how often are you re-arranging your desk at home to justify an SFF? Sounds like a mental illness rather than a space problem
Haha, loved it. This is one of those videos that is unfortunate that you can click on like only once xD (SFF NCase M1 user here :P)
There was an EPYC mini ITX board, not sure about Threadripper. Although there are sub 20L SFF cases that support micro ATX and even ATX boards, so SFF Threadripper is technically doable these days, though maybe not advisable. 😅
Steve pretty much covered all the other points I would make in his rebuttal.
Basically, for most for most mainstream consumer use cases - extreme OCers and people running physics labs in their basement probably don't qualify 😄 - an SFF build is fine - they just take a little more care in planning, can cost more for equivalent specs, and you have a more narrow range of parts to choose from.
Well-designed SFF cases (like the NR200 Steve mentioned) can actually be easier to build in (really!) than some poorly designed mid-towers sometimes, as long as you stick to parts that aren't pushing size constraint limits.
SFF is often worth the tradeoffs if you have limited desk space and/or want a build that's easier to ship/transport. I've done maybe half a dozen SFF builds now, and the performance sacrifice has been negligible vs larger builds.
There are still plenty of reasons to need mid-tower and full-tower builds, but for *the average person* (e.g. most people aren't filling their cases with tons of hard drives anymore, and multi-GPU is largely dead outside of mining or HPC applications) SFF is a perfectly capable option.
And if you just like/want to build in a large case, that's great, too. People often get defensive in the SFF vs ATX case debate, but there's nothing wrong with picking whatever suits your wants and needs the best, while respecting the fact that other people have valid wants and needs of their own.
As a wise man once said, "be classy!", internet! 😎😁
_ziv rides off in a coupe_
One day APUs will be so powerful and efficient and history class will play this video back and show what they had to deal with in the past.
Many times that nearly happened. That's like saying the SSD will replace the hard drive. It will to an extent but until SSDs beat the capacity of the largest HDD for the same money then it won't. APUs have already replaced cards such as HD 5870, simply no point in using that one any more, cheaper to use an APU due to the saving in the PSU. However it's only recently that APUs passed the performance of even the lowest old GPU. Things have moved on and current GPUs are more powerful than APUs. I don't see this changing, only that more needs are being met by APUs than before. You can game on them.
As a small form factor person, I'm really offended.
It's OK, they keep all the SFF parts on the lower shelves for you.
My computer is now the size of a cereal box and I travel overseas with it for work. Not going back to mini-fridge form factor 😛
I like SFF for productivity/office/media PCs but for my main gaming rig? nope, never. I'm a big fan of chunky tower cases with lots of cooling and expansion options.
I've been gaming with a 3070+i9 in the a4-h20 [11 liter case] for the past few months, an 2070 super+i9 in a ghost s1 for a full year before this one, and I have no need for more cooling or expansions - does what it needs to do
Ah yes wasted space and choked front ends.
Gordon, US homes are generally much larger than those here in Blighty. Your right, its a compromise to choose a SFF but it looks better on my desk, does not take up valuable domestic square footage and most importantly passes “the wife test”.
I’m happy with my Meshlicious system running Flight Sim in 4K - It can get noisy and it will keep me warm in the winter. Respect your opinion but you ain’t always right! Enjoy your truck!
I had the reverse roadmap with my SFF opinion. I thought they were dumb and wanted the prototypical gaming PC. After hauling a midtower to a new residence for a few years in a row, I decided there's no need for such a big case. My rig is housed in a SilverStone FTZ-01E. I've got plenty of performance with an i9-9900KF and RTX 3070. I don't plan on going back to an ATX build anytime soon.
And I've had completely the opposite road map from you. After building in only SFF I completely hate it, because I don't move new residences every year.
@@levigoldson4242 Being able to bring my PC with me on road trips is a very nice convenience. I also don't need so many add-in cards anymore since onboard audio no longer sucks and ethernet is integrated.
This was super fun! I would watch this weekly with these two, they are a great combo!
It makes sense to build in mITX If I am not going to use the extra space. Sure, it may be more expensive, but it is not that expensive IMO if you are building a mid/high-end PC.
I also think they look better than big cases.
I've had both SG13 and NR200 builds. One thing I really appreciate is how easy they are to clean. There simply is only so much space for dust to build up.
Giant cases that are 85% empty space are also dumb. We don't stack giant spinning rust disks and CDRom drives in there anymore.
My fractal case I have 3 HDDs mount side ways in the back and 3 m.2 SSDs NVMe drives on the board and 1 sata SSD for random crap 😄
The space in my case for the front is taken up by water pump/reservoir plus radiator and fans all in use for a big case 😁
This is my new internet Gem content when this Sir called Gordon decides to bring in Hot topics. We need more of this.
Own 5 SFF PCs, three itx and 2 tiny m93 Lenovo and given volume constraints where these PC sit, a tower isn't an option.
Oh, over of them had 5800x and 3080 and one has a 6600xt and a 12400. Very potent gaming platforms, well built they don't heat too much.
Yeah, towers are more convenient, but there are other factors to consider.
Using a NR200 with 5800X3d (Cooled with a Scythe Fuma 2b) and 3090... Able to run games without throttle at default setting. Even better if you use PBO to undervolt/oc it.
Great video! You should invite Steve and Ian for a future episode!
Generally I am an SFF fan... have had a node 304 system for the last 8 years, which has been my favorite build ever. However the power and thermal requirements of next gen high end gear has driven me back to a mid size (O11 Evo). At least it looks nice.
I think Steve’s and Gordon’s voices were switched at birth! Found this channel thru GN’s counterpart video. I so hope they do more stuff together. Gordon is f’n hilarious and awesome. Subscribed!
I use a Lian Li A4 H2O, which is only 11L in size. I won't put a 3090Ti and 12900K in. But how many people really need the hottest CPU and GPU? A 5900X and RTX3080 have zero problem to manage good thermal in the case. I think that kind of performance is enough for the majority of PC enthusiats.
clicked on the link because steve and gordon have great chemistry...
after 25 years of pc building i just built my first SFF build! repurposed my 980ti and paired it with a 12400, budget mobo, and a used node202 case. cheap, it looks lovely in my stereo rack, and sips power while running nearly silent. 1080p couch gaming is effortless. it kicks ass.
SFF has merit in some situs, and it's something to nerd out on. Gordon's views make sense when viewed through his lens. good video!
This is sooo much fun to watch. Great content
In Hong Kong, living space we have for majority of people is small. SFF offers an alternative...
SFF is a leveled up building exercise. The bad builds aside, I equate a good SFF build with performance equivalent to a larger build that took less $ or mental effort to overcome case design and size constraints. Once you get on the keyboard & mouse, start staring into the display(s), it's a computing experience. I guess if someone wants to have a SFF build in their view it's fine.
For me, the Meshify 2 Compact is the perfect case size. I'm an air cooling person so I don't need the space for water cooling equipment, but I enjoy the extra space allowed by being an ATX tower. No unneeded stuff with everything I need, yet it still fits nicely on my desk. What can I say, I don't like change. ATX is what I know and what I love.
Yeah I feel the same way, I have one too. It seems to be the perfect balance between compact size and yet It's able to handle the highest tier parts.
There doesn't seem to be much point to micro atx anymore, because atx cases have shrunk so much over the past decade that they're almost the same size.
I'm triggered. As a digital nomad, I love my SFF build. And no, I store it in the carry on, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT GORDON! Of course we're not stupid enough to put a PC in check in luggage. I do place my 4K monitor in check in though because I bubble wrap the living shit outta it. I use a Silverstone SG13, did many hours of research, it's just small enough for carry on, can fit a full size PSU, and some 3-fan GPUs though I wouldn't recommend that.
I'm with Gordon. Bubble wrapping the hell out of the monitor, then carrying on the SFF tower to stuff in the overhead shelf sounds like a bit of a faff... I'd probably prefer the Gordon method, a gaming laptop.. Plus, then you'd actually be able to enjoy it in flight too! But, each their own an all that.
@@bliglum trust me if I wasn't such a stickler for 4K gaming I wouldn't bother with a gaming PC and stick with the laptop.
I just finished building an SFF gaming PC in a Cooler Master RC-130-KKN1-Elite case, with a Ryzen 9 5900X on an ASUS Rog Strix B550-I Gaming mobo, a PowerColor Fighter RX 6700 XT, a full-size blu-ray optical drive, an SFX EVGA Supernova 850W 80+ Gold PSU, 32 GB RAM, a Corsair H60 AIO upgraded with a Phanteks T30x120 fan, and two Arctic PST 120mm Slim case fans on aftermarket fan mounting brackets (I had to tap some new mounting holes to the case frame). All inside a Cooler Master RC-130-KKN1-Elite mini-ITX case. I ran Cinebench R23 for 10 minutes and the CPU temperature never went above 66*C, with a multi-core score of 19,829 points.
I offset undervolted the CPU by 0.1v, and capped the overclock frequency at 4000 Mhz. Normal CPU temperatures average 42*C doing normal computer tasks, but reaches 52*C playing Halo Infinite with the GPU reaching 72*C (after I played with the fan curve). It sucks that Halo Infinite is such a crappily designed game that it pushed temperatures to 98*C before I ended the game to tweak the fan setting (and it didn't even happen in a match, but while waiting to find a match!). I've had this PC running for over 48 hours now with no issues whatsoever.
Love my little SFF build.
Congrats! 👍😎 Sounds like good part selection and build overall.
@@zivzulander I had experience building in a SilverStone SG05BB-Lite mini-ITX case prior to this buld, which is 2/3 the size of the Cooler Master case. I had to do a lot of modifications to that in order to keep the R7 3700X CPU cool, and the EVGA RTX 3060 XC OC GPU cooler. This too, has the same Corsair H60 AIO with the Phanteks T30x120 fan upgrade, even though it wasn't made to fit an AIO, but I made it work.
Oh, I failed to mention that my apartment ambient temperature is 27*C (81*F).
There's always a middle-ground like a nice micro-atx build. Lots of neat matx sff sized cases lately which take full length gpu's and atx psu's - for example Jonsbo D30 and Asus AP201.
Cooler Master NR400 micro atx case is a gem. Tons of airflow, almost a clone copy of the full size NR600, which GN found to be an excellent flat mesh front airflow and thermals case, at way less money than the other cases it competes with at the top of the GN thermal charts.
Plus the NR400 has a removable hard drive cage, unlike the NR600. Which is odd. And it helps with installing that 3rd front fan at the bottom, which is really the only downside of the NR600, an otherwise perfect case, and a budget champ considering how far above it's price class it punches, in terms of thermals. (cpu and gpu both )
Issue is very poor choice of mATC mobo's. ATX and mITX gets all the love , mATX especially for Alder Lake very few choices...
@@cirozorro Nah, msi had some very good am4 b450 and b550 ryzen boards, that and Asus bringing back matx GENE for am5 ryzens. Good times for matx.
another brilliant vid thanks folks and "Thanks Steve"
I have an ATX build at the moment. I'm planning on putting together a nr200 build this year. As an enthusiast, I do find fun in having to plan out the build that optimizes size to performance. For bang for buck people, an ATX does make more sense (itx cases/psu/mobo do demand a premium). So in the end it comes down to different strokes for different folks.
nr200 is an essentially perfect SFF setup
@@vlissblisskiss might not be the smallest ITX case but for 80ish € the compatibility is unmatched for the size. I do love the minimalist style.
My thing with SFF cases is having more desk real estate for standing desks. I don't like how leaving a case on the floor means the cables are either completely slack at ground level or almost fully stretched while standing. You can get a bigger standing desk, but big monitors are coming down in price and I myself have a 32" and a 48" on my desk already. No room for a tower.
As a coupe driver and SFF builder - my largest GPU is the 203mm long Evga 3060Ti that fits nicely in a 10 liter case with a 135mm tall air cooler with three separate air flow streams for motherboard components, GPU and PSU. Just how much larger does a case need to be once everything fits?
@Velo The brand new Lazer 3D LZX-10.
Holy guacamole, there's so many people that just decided to blow up and write paragraphs. It's an opinion, folks! And a valid one at that. SFF is a pointless pain in the ass, and a very limiting process. You can only use what fits, as opposed to just whatever you'd actually like or would perform better.
Nerve. Hit. Most of my builds were SFF and they always involved compromises, disappointments, and high costs. I switched to big boy cases and so many problems disappeared. And I also came to realize that the SFF appeal for me was purely aesthetic and neurotic. I always had room in my room for a bigger machine, but it just seemed like a waste of space to me. Why not have something small and cute? I was wrong. That space is so valuable for working on the machine and cooling it. Unless you are truly limited in space, don't limit yourself and your computer. Don't be a me.
"SFF appeal for me was purely aesthetic and neurotic" - feel the same right now. it's like torturing myself with unreasonably complicated task for unreasonably small outcome.
Meshilicious with a 12600K and a slightly undervolted 3080 FE. Quiet, doesn’t thermal throttle, and works just fine.
Very nice video. I'm going to throw my full tower in my coupe and drive around now
Building SFF is a challenge, saying they suck is textbook sour grapes when you can't do it 😂
it would be funny if sff becoming a standard size in the future
Small is beautiful and you can get the same performance as full size. The effort is worth it. If you like to boring and lazy go just stick with full size. The build is a lot more interesting, challenging, and it is a labor of love to build your mini-itx SFF that your like.
We need this to be at least a monthly occurrence.
I think the only point that stands is that SFF requires more planning and care.
Performance wise with the right case and cooling set up you're not held back whatsoever.
Someone in the recent Intel OCing competition competed with their SFF system while living in a tropical country.
I know people with a 64 core EPYC cpu in a 10L case, using it as a rendering server, can be cooled by a 280 AIO.
I know people that regularly travel (inter)nationally with their SFF systems, the advantage for them is the better performance and longevity compared to a laptop.
Plenty of setups that fit in a backpack.
Power supply wise we've got the Corsair SF750 which is absolutely best in class, silent and high performance.
There's a good number of people running 12900k and a 3090 builds on a SF750 without issues.
There's higher wattage SFX/SFX-L PSUs coming soon too.
I myself run a SFF system, 5900x and 3080 FE that I use for work, gaming, and streaming, and I have no qualls with it.
Hi Scott, what case are you using?
@@cs7jay41 FormD T1 V2 Sandwich for me :)
@@Simply_Scott Nice! I was running an intel i7 for several years in an SG-13 until the AIO pump failed.
I built a Ryzen 3900x ATX system in the Cerberus X. If I were to go back to an ITX build, your case would be on my shortlist.
SFF is really dependant on your usecase and hardware, it will even cost you extra for the parts you will need. Also some people prefer bigger or smaller things. I use my giant case as a "fishbowl equvivalent" on my desk. Eye catching and pretty behind glass.
To hel support Steve's argument: The Ramses II that GN reviewed was huge and still one of the worst (if not THE worst) PC case we ever saw.
Overall, I think SFF is fine, and especially if you wanna go with the minimalistic look, they are your best shot. Just be mindful of what you choose and what parts your gonna put in the case. Cramming a 12900K/7950X or the likes in a shoebox is bound to get toasty.
the moment you say "top tier components" i already know your setting yourself up for dissapointment. with the current trend of smaller is better, its basicly get a ryzen 5 or i5(non k) and x60ti or radeon x700 and your basicly set. people have the need for the most powerful in the smallest form factor at the moment and thats the real problem going on with thermals.
it was so long ago where you saw "sff and itx" it was almost ALWAYS a low powered, low performance part, they usually had the looks to compliment the "not a gaming pc" style.
I went SFF for something fresh. Had MATX build for years.
I do like my 5800X3D and 6950 XT set up, a small power house.
I've been building computers since the 2000s, I remember that the first time I change my case I had to buy larger one and my Mom ask me "Isn't technology suppose to make everything smaller and better with the pass of time, why are you buying a bigger case".
I have to give this one to my Mom SFF, doesn't sucks; the technology around pc building sucks, needing bigger components for no reason and CPU/GPU requiring more thermal surface.
So True Man
This is one of the Best vids of 2 folks I have seen in a while in the tech world.
I bought an NZXT H1 V2. I just simply required something that had that small of a footprint to fit in my workspace. I was skeptical with the V1's design problem with the riser and the rumored V2s PSU issue highlighted by Steve, but it's been rock solid with a 5600X + EVGA 3080 for ~6months. I've had zero stability issues. If I dumped a 5900X in there maybe the higher CPU draw would push it over the edge, but I don't need a 5900X when the 70 odd watts the 5600X draws is way more than enough for gaming. I'm still GPU limited at 1440p@144Hz ultra details most of the time anyway. I did add a custom back panel and mounted two 140mm fans back there to aide in airflow, but that was not really necessary, just helped quiet it down a bit since the GPU fan doesn't spin up as high anymore. I could still probably grab an EVGA 850GM PSU if I needed another 100W for any reason, that might be something I need to do if I upgrade to Ryzen 7000 + RTX 4000 series down the road.
Steve’s point about the NR 200 being great is completely valid. I have an NR 200 and I just built my nephew, a micro ATX tower in a phanteks case. I think it was actually easier and less time-consuming to build and set up my system because every panel came off and I was just building it in a rectangular open chassis instead of a box. Thermals are also perfectly acceptable. My gigabyte 3080 TI with a very mediocre cooler for 360W stays at 71C. I think it would have problems if I was running an OCed Intel processor instead of a voltage tuned Ryzen.
i honestly just think it looks amazing. big towers with tons of empty space isn't my thing tbh. but it's hotter and a lot harder to build SFF so i see why most stay away. i like the challenge :)
temps are not terrible either imo. custom loop on a 12700k and a 3080ti in a louqe ghost. cpu 30c gpu 60c both at idle. 60c idle is safe on a gpu and it's never exceeded 85. if it is throttling, it's definitely not noticeable in games.
My solution (for my super tower) is to simply get one with a solid side panel. No need to waste money on RGB's or to worry about unsightly empty spaces. It looks clean and simple.
$300 for a case is ludicrous. Period. This is the BIG reason I'm against SFF builds. You get screwed for being niche.
Tech Buddha Versus Tech Jesus! I have to agree with Gordon on this issue. I have built SFF pcs and regular size ATX systems and I much prefer an ATX in a mid sized tower case over any SFF pc! The reasons are standard sized parts, ease of building, cooling, etc!
As an engineer it pains me to see someone with such experience and influence in the PC world miss the point of SFF
🙄
I have to go SFF when I’m building for my brother, because he’s in another country. I build it here and ship it to him. Making it more compact makes it much cheaper to ship. The first one I built was in a Node202. The one I’m currently amassing parts for will be in a NR200 because that Node really was a pain in the ass.
I'd say there are only two valid reasons for going SFF: You think it's cool to make a PC as small as possible, or you have a space constraint where you're installing the machine. In the latter case, you still need to consider whether the space you're planning to use is large enough that the machine will have access to fresh air anyway.
Building an SFF machine, unless you're specifically doing it for a challenge, is just a bad idea. On top of all the usual concerns with compatibility and staying within your parts budget, you also have to consider the physical dimensions of every part from graphics card, especially custom cards with excessive furniture, to RAM and coolers. You have to get your build order exactly right so you don't block connectors you need later in the build, and your airflow paths become far more complicated. If dust gets in, you may need to disassemble the thing to get it out and adding dust filters further compromises performance you've already compromised by putting hot electronics very close together. God help you if you're buying all the parts online and relying on the published specs to be sure everything will fit.
TL/DR: Gordon is putting it out.
Travelling with a neat small box for demos is far more impressive than lugging an ATX tower.
Gordon's wrong about performance laptops, they don't last as long, have limited upgrade-ability, are expensive to replace keyboards on and any integrated box puts you at the mercy of the weakest link in the component chain.
But some people rather like the misery of SFF builds. (To paraphrase Mrs Dole)
@The Crazy Slav Yeah if you are using a G processor then SFF is straightforward and makes sense to keep it small. It stops making sense and becomes a 'challenge' done for the fun of it when you want to pack massive GPU and cooling into the tiny case. Then you must spend a fortune on a tiny but powerful PSU and be really precise about your component selection. Some people enjoy that.
@@wayland7150 My last 750 watt gold rated fully modular name brand SFX power supply cost $90 - a fortune?
@@RobBCactive Except he's right. Between transporting a laptop and an SFF build with the monitor, mouse keyboard and audio devices, it's the latter which has a higher chance of breaking. Never mind the ease of deployment - you can use a laptop wherever, as long as you can keep it charged. With an SFF build you need a place to set everything up.
And let's not talk about price because pretty much everything SFF is very expensive.
Great video, I helped my friend with a SFF build because it had to live in the living room and needed to be discrete for the partner approval. It was a pain in the ass.
And then I wanted to build my own NAS and got a deal on a used mATX asrock taichai & Threadripper combo. Unfortunately matx cases with hard drive support is hard. There was a fractal mini that got discontinued. I ended up with a mionix case which would have been fine with a normal matx, but the Threadripper matx was a rash, got low profile sata cables to help, but not worth it. Snagged a used with a define r6, transplanted everything, never looked back.
I have been building computers for more than 30 years now and everytime people ask me to build a SFF because they are so "cute" I die a little on the inside 😜
They cost more, they will perform worse, limited storage space and limited choices among ITX boards, graphics cards etc.
Gordon is my hero!
I find women want them because they hate the bigger ones and they expect them to be cheaper.
I hate this type of comment as if the technology are same as 30 years and still regressive. ssf now better than ever, as a composer and musician, having sff pc is beneficial for me. imagine you're working commercials composer have to carry around powerful pc to get link up and live recording from studio to studio. the solution buy a mac mini? mini pc? or laptop? some computer form factors are very limit to upgrade, let alone apple computer, mac pro and studio can't even have beneficial for that.
it's not always about how its look.
This is so good, I can see Gordon's argument (but disagree) but love the way he talks and defends his points. I was smiling the whole video!
Think about it… how much material could be saved worldwide if everybody would build SFF machines instead of big towers?
Think about energy, throttle.
The first thing that discourage most of the people is limited choice when it comes to motherboards and power supplies. And lot of the sff cases that can fit those quiet 3+slot graphics cards have almost the same footprint as midi towers...
SFF doesn't work for me. I want the biggest case I can get so I can put the most water-cooling stuff in it.
Small Form Factor is amazing, but ITX boards and SFX PSU’s are so much more expensive.
I don't want to buy any PC case that has been made in the past nine years
I will never ask you to ride in the back of my coupe (you can walk).
VIA kept the ITX, Mini ITX, Pico ITX and Nano ITX form factors alive until Mini ITX became mainstream. Wish VIA could have become a competitor to AMD and Intel as we could have used them in a more consumer friendly market. I always liked SFF builds. I was building Flex ATX builds almost as small as the smallest Mini ITX builds today. Great vid and content :)
3:29 "Get to the Choppaaah!"
Ha this was a great entertaining video!
He forgot to mention the extra price of SFF. That’s one of the biggest deliberate disadvantages
When I was moving to a new apartment and was faced with having to move my giant 50+ lb full tower (which I had only used because "maybe I'll want a bunch of hard drives or space for two GPUs"), that was the exact moment I got SFF-pilled. Moved all my hard drives to an inexpensive external enclosure, and never looked back.
Personally, I don't see myself ever building a personal machine in something over 25L ever again. It's nice having your PC on your desk instead of the floor.
This is like pc top gear.. u guys are fire.. pls do more together, doesnt even have to be constructive advice and i'd still enjoy the banter
SFF is good for a truck computer, like for your off-grid GPS maps on a large monitor.
I’m currently working on a 3d printed Sff style case. It fits m-atx board, full size psu, 360mm radiator, and any gpu under 125mm height. Total size 410x290x224mm.
IF your only goal is to make the most powerful machine you can...sure build a tower. I like my small machine, it's on a tiny shelf behind one of my monitors. I built a reasonable machine fairly middle of the road, it's everything I need it to be. I don't have to work on it much...because I'm a computer user, not a reviewer.
More power doesn't mean best.
I have to buy a sff as my wife is crazy a doesn't want the bedroom to look like a kids gaming room