Um actually, fleeing foes are called squirters in the military. They are priority targets that are normally planned for with blocking forces. The primary job of cavalry is to break and then run down fleeing enemies. Retreat in combat is tradionally extremely difficult and normally increases casualties. I get that this is difficult in a game and I think it is meant to be.
"Champagne?" "We are in the middle of a chase Porthos!" "You're right, something red." I prefer to stop going round to round once a side flees, and just narrate the outcome. I'll give a final opportunity attack, and then usually just remove the combatant from the board, or say they got away. I rarely have opponents flee though. It's a very unsatisfying victory when facing opponents that they just get away and you failed to stop them. Fleeing foes should always behave accordingly. I disagree with 'taking it easy' on the party if they allow this to happen, especially with evil foes. Attacking fleeing monsters is very different from real world conflicts where it is human vs. human. Depends on how you have created your world and changed the D&D lore, but in my game it's not frowned upon to kill evil foes that try to get away.
So many thoughts here. First, I set the tone of the game/campaign by letting the players know that their opponents have a will to live. Then I demonstrate that early on with opponents who will turn and run once the first couple have fallen, or surrender if they determine that they cannot possibly outrun or hide from the party. Smart parties will understand that this is reciprocal during fights. Opponents will challenge to surrender them if one of the party goes down early and before some of the opponents have fallen. Second, I use flight as an opportunity to run a skill check. Use the environment and allow the one(s) who fled to dodge behind a tree, rock, wall, etc. and then quickly hide to avoid the pursuers. It makes this part a bit more interesting to the players when they realize they can no longer see their quarry and have to backtrack and use other skills to pick the trail back up. In these cases, if caught, the opponent will (usually) surrender quickly and not put up a fight. Third and for more intelligent opponents, I have one of the opponents sacrifice themselves 'for the good of the many' to slow the party down or cause them to stop. This works for typically lawful type of opponents, less so for the chaotic. The chaotic opponents will each flee in different directions, also forcing the party to choose who to pursue and who to let go. I do sometimes have the ones who fled reappear, but usually they will be more contrite and warn anyone they are with of the party's potential to do harm. There are the occasional attempts at revenge on the party, but this is only when it adds to the overall story or is part of a character arc. Lastly, I think, the concept of the tactical retreat is one I also use. I will signal to the party by offering descriptions of the environment or nearby sounds and the potential for danger to allow them to figure out what might be ahead. Usually, I am using a tactical retreat to bait the party into a trap or to delay for reinforcements. In either case, the retreating opponents will fall back and hold action to strike at the party should they pursue, if they have the means to do that.
That’s a fair representation. I think it would still be fair to say that someone who isn’t defending themselves could be said to no longer have that resource, but hey, that’s why these are just suggestions! :D Thanks for your comment
I see someone beat me to the punch. Having enough reserves (in D&D terms, this is hit points and spell power) to mount a vigorous pursuit is a critical aspect of combat. One of the many philosophical discussions I've been tracking on the game has been the combat as sport vs combat as war. And maybe cutting down fleeing troops is a crap move in a combat as sport kind of campaign. But the very conditions you describe--where word gets out that the party is extremely dangerous and formidable, where enemies flee before they even arrive on scene--isn't that the sort of reputation you want? You strike fear into the hearts of your enemies and give heart to those you defend. It means your bad guys are going to need to marshal more forces before confronting the party, or have cases where the enemy throws their swords on the ground and begs for quarter. Killing them after they surrender--that would be a crap move. And yet, if the party is racing against a clock---lets say the evil cult will kill five innocent villagers at midnight and it's 4 in the afternoon. Town is a day's march away, and the party now has 12 prisoners who were working for the cult... Every minute spent on the prisoners is a minute closer the innocent are to death and perhaps even worse, depending on the ritual in question...what does the paladin do? Unless you hire a dozen mercenaries or so prisoners are a huge problem. Tie them up? Now they are food for wolves or anything else that happens by, so it's really just a slower death sentence. Let them go free? Well, now you've just raised an alarm, or they get recycled back into enemy units, like in Saving Private Ryan. If your going to take prisoners, you need someone to babysit them. But this is a good way to hit the PCs in their coin purses.
yeah, I dont like the rules for retreat too. Because if you Dash (running 2x 30 feet), they will stab you (opportunity attack) first + they can chase you with Dash too. If you Disengage instead of Dash and walk away (normal 30 feet), they can chase you & attack you their next turn. Thank you, I will take some long range teleport spell instead.
I actually really appreciate this because I have always found it difficult to provide both my party and my monsters a reason to flee. Typically, I always have the bigger villains have a willingness to retreat, but that is always accompanied by an expectation that a big villain will come back to fight them another day. The few times I had smaller NPCs run away, it dragged on anyways. My PCs never fled, though I think that had more to do with them not really understanding the mechanics of it. Thanks for the video, I will def try these out in my games in the future.
We just We just watched our rogue sneak into enemy camp to hit their chief. Attack was good, but sneak away roll failed. They charged in, and our rogue was surrounded, cut off, and ended.
The idea that attacking fleeing foes is morally bad is an extremely modern idea. It was considered completely not only acceptable but preferable for most of human history.
I think for that final point it depends a bit on what is fleeing. Goblins should be prone to fleeing if they haven't already got the upper hand, but they're also bastards who should try to get revenge at a later time.
I concur from a narrative standpoint, 100%. From a gameplay standpoint, it depends on your hoped for outcomes. It is incredibly common for players to take enemies coming back after breaking morale as a sign that they should absolutely never let anything get away alive… Sometimes finding a reason the goblins don’t hunt the group down leads to a better long-term gameplay experience.
@@DM-Timothy I just disagree with it only being a strength check. A nimble individual might try to weave through obstacles that could slow down a less agile opponent. Wise or intelligent runners might try scanning ahead for the most optimal path to gain more distance. Someone a high constitution could decide that if they could just outlast the others, they can either get away or catch up to a very tired opponent, so they don't have to run flat out.
@@JMcMillen Those are all great inclusions. Constitution is already sort of covered by the system, but the other ones actually could be added in at the Complication Table level for the runners. One reason to emphasize strength is that the attribute kinda needs love. Dexterity is already vastly superior in practically every way, let the buff guy outrun the nimble guy for a change. :D Just my opinion of course. But I do think a varied complication table that touches on other skills is great to keep the chase scene interesting and touching on various skill sets.
0:20 Next time you should really say "There are some who call me *_DRAMATIC PAUSE_* Tim"
It’s true. Lol.
Um actually, fleeing foes are called squirters in the military. They are priority targets that are normally planned for with blocking forces. The primary job of cavalry is to break and then run down fleeing enemies. Retreat in combat is tradionally extremely difficult and normally increases casualties. I get that this is difficult in a game and I think it is meant to be.
"Champagne?"
"We are in the middle of a chase Porthos!"
"You're right, something red."
I prefer to stop going round to round once a side flees, and just narrate the outcome. I'll give a final opportunity attack, and then usually just remove the combatant from the board, or say they got away.
I rarely have opponents flee though. It's a very unsatisfying victory when facing opponents that they just get away and you failed to stop them.
Fleeing foes should always behave accordingly. I disagree with 'taking it easy' on the party if they allow this to happen, especially with evil foes.
Attacking fleeing monsters is very different from real world conflicts where it is human vs. human. Depends on how you have created your world and changed the D&D lore, but in my game it's not frowned upon to kill evil foes that try to get away.
I am a GM of a game without chase rules and I ask myself: why not consider using a skill check?
Those options sound great. A video showcasing them in action would be awesome, too.
I'll have to re-watch this later and take some notes. 👍
I have a playlist of "DM Tips" which covers everything from rule tweaks to monster ideas to worldbuilding. I highly recommend
Thanks for the suggestion!
So many thoughts here.
First, I set the tone of the game/campaign by letting the players know that their opponents have a will to live. Then I demonstrate that early on with opponents who will turn and run once the first couple have fallen, or surrender if they determine that they cannot possibly outrun or hide from the party.
Smart parties will understand that this is reciprocal during fights. Opponents will challenge to surrender them if one of the party goes down early and before some of the opponents have fallen.
Second, I use flight as an opportunity to run a skill check. Use the environment and allow the one(s) who fled to dodge behind a tree, rock, wall, etc. and then quickly hide to avoid the pursuers. It makes this part a bit more interesting to the players when they realize they can no longer see their quarry and have to backtrack and use other skills to pick the trail back up. In these cases, if caught, the opponent will (usually) surrender quickly and not put up a fight.
Third and for more intelligent opponents, I have one of the opponents sacrifice themselves 'for the good of the many' to slow the party down or cause them to stop. This works for typically lawful type of opponents, less so for the chaotic. The chaotic opponents will each flee in different directions, also forcing the party to choose who to pursue and who to let go.
I do sometimes have the ones who fled reappear, but usually they will be more contrite and warn anyone they are with of the party's potential to do harm. There are the occasional attempts at revenge on the party, but this is only when it adds to the overall story or is part of a character arc.
Lastly, I think, the concept of the tactical retreat is one I also use. I will signal to the party by offering descriptions of the environment or nearby sounds and the potential for danger to allow them to figure out what might be ahead. Usually, I am using a tactical retreat to bait the party into a trap or to delay for reinforcements. In either case, the retreating opponents will fall back and hold action to strike at the party should they pursue, if they have the means to do that.
These are all excellent stuff, well explained. Thank you for adding it to this video! I hope people see this comment.
I disagree with your definition of hit points. It has nothing to do with morale. Is a resource players spend to avoid tangible injury.
That’s a fair representation. I think it would still be fair to say that someone who isn’t defending themselves could be said to no longer have that resource, but hey, that’s why these are just suggestions! :D Thanks for your comment
@@DM-Timothy sure thing! Thanks for the reasonable response!
Hit points are an abstract combination of physical health, stamina to stay in a fight, and luck.
@@TheTerrainWizard Also a totally fair framework. Thanks!
I see someone beat me to the punch. Having enough reserves (in D&D terms, this is hit points and spell power) to mount a vigorous pursuit is a critical aspect of combat. One of the many philosophical discussions I've been tracking on the game has been the combat as sport vs combat as war. And maybe cutting down fleeing troops is a crap move in a combat as sport kind of campaign.
But the very conditions you describe--where word gets out that the party is extremely dangerous and formidable, where enemies flee before they even arrive on scene--isn't that the sort of reputation you want? You strike fear into the hearts of your enemies and give heart to those you defend. It means your bad guys are going to need to marshal more forces before confronting the party, or have cases where the enemy throws their swords on the ground and begs for quarter.
Killing them after they surrender--that would be a crap move. And yet, if the party is racing against a clock---lets say the evil cult will kill five innocent villagers at midnight and it's 4 in the afternoon. Town is a day's march away, and the party now has 12 prisoners who were working for the cult... Every minute spent on the prisoners is a minute closer the innocent are to death and perhaps even worse, depending on the ritual in question...what does the paladin do?
Unless you hire a dozen mercenaries or so prisoners are a huge problem. Tie them up? Now they are food for wolves or anything else that happens by, so it's really just a slower death sentence. Let them go free? Well, now you've just raised an alarm, or they get recycled back into enemy units, like in Saving Private Ryan. If your going to take prisoners, you need someone to babysit them. But this is a good way to hit the PCs in their coin purses.
yeah, I dont like the rules for retreat too. Because if you Dash (running 2x 30 feet), they will stab you (opportunity attack) first + they can chase you with Dash too. If you Disengage instead of Dash and walk away (normal 30 feet), they can chase you & attack you their next turn.
Thank you, I will take some long range teleport spell instead.
Yeah, that’s why I think adding a simple randomizer can at least help. It’s far from a panacea, but teleport will always be a better option.
I actually really appreciate this because I have always found it difficult to provide both my party and my monsters a reason to flee. Typically, I always have the bigger villains have a willingness to retreat, but that is always accompanied by an expectation that a big villain will come back to fight them another day. The few times I had smaller NPCs run away, it dragged on anyways. My PCs never fled, though I think that had more to do with them not really understanding the mechanics of it. Thanks for the video, I will def try these out in my games in the future.
My pleasure! I have traditionally done a lot of big bad retreats, too. Interestingly, they’re almost universally hated, and indeed can drag on.
While I often disagree with your takes, this is an excellent insight into the issue, great job!
Thanks! I appreciate it!
Killing routing foes is bad? From my understanding thats where the casualties actually occured, not so much the combat.
We just We just watched our rogue sneak into enemy camp to hit their chief. Attack was good, but sneak away roll failed. They charged in, and our rogue was surrounded, cut off, and ended.
Thanks! I'm going to be using the second rule from now on
Let me know how it goes at your table! (If you think of it ;) )
My thoughts exactly. It is a fun & easy fix with some interesting effects if things go poorly with that athletics check.
Is that DC 12 athletics check meant to be an action?
Meant to be made as part of the dash action as a supplement for “running all out”
Good points. Don't suppose you know the James Bond chase rules, curious your opinion as that's where I've been looking/thinking.
I can't say as I've heard of them! Any chance you can point to something to read on it?
The idea that attacking fleeing foes is morally bad is an extremely modern idea. It was considered completely not only acceptable but preferable for most of human history.
In ancient Greece, the fleeing army would only be pursued the length of the battlefield.
I think for that final point it depends a bit on what is fleeing. Goblins should be prone to fleeing if they haven't already got the upper hand, but they're also bastards who should try to get revenge at a later time.
I concur from a narrative standpoint, 100%. From a gameplay standpoint, it depends on your hoped for outcomes. It is incredibly common for players to take enemies coming back after breaking morale as a sign that they should absolutely never let anything get away alive… Sometimes finding a reason the goblins don’t hunt the group down leads to a better long-term gameplay experience.
I like your fix. DC check and randomized increase in speed is good.
Glad you like it! Thank you
@@DM-Timothy I just disagree with it only being a strength check. A nimble individual might try to weave through obstacles that could slow down a less agile opponent. Wise or intelligent runners might try scanning ahead for the most optimal path to gain more distance. Someone a high constitution could decide that if they could just outlast the others, they can either get away or catch up to a very tired opponent, so they don't have to run flat out.
@@JMcMillen Those are all great inclusions. Constitution is already sort of covered by the system, but the other ones actually could be added in at the Complication Table level for the runners. One reason to emphasize strength is that the attribute kinda needs love. Dexterity is already vastly superior in practically every way, let the buff guy outrun the nimble guy for a change. :D Just my opinion of course. But I do think a varied complication table that touches on other skills is great to keep the chase scene interesting and touching on various skill sets.
🥳🫂👍🏿
Mostly with Skill Challenges