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Alright, here's the deal: I'm the main character. Everyone else is NPCs (that I can control). The DM is to be destroyed, at any cost (along with any player that challenges my ability to control their characters). All of my rolls are absolute (even those made with loaded dice). I can take as long as I want with my turns (and they are _all_ my turns). I _will_ be spending weeks, if not months, in town. I _will_ be murdering all of the townspeople, once I'm done with that town. I _will_ be as edgy as possible, while murdering all of the townspeople. I _will_ put pineapple on _every_ pizza I order. I _will_ be in your next D&D session, and you won't know it's me, until it's too late. I'm the Andrew Tate of D&D, and I'm already in your walls, *_Jeffrey Johannes Stevenson III._*
Hey Will, hope all is well. My buddy and I met and took a picture with you on the plane while we were on the tarmac at Charlotte Airport. Did you end up making it to your flight on time?
@@recklessone9842 Because that's how much of an Alpha Sigma Gamma Delta Epsilon Zeta Eta Theta Iota Kappa Lambda Mu Nu Xi Omicron Pi Rho Tau Upsilon Phi Chi Psi Omega Chad I am. And your D&D campaign is next.
You missed secret #8: The Bleeder, in other words (the one who experiences character bleed). The player who takes things personally and will get actually agitated in response to something negative to their character).
Stop talking about me. Though, seriously, I have a few people I've done multiple campaigns with and it seems like my characters get the most crap regardless of the personalities I give them.
This right here! Definitely been guilty of this one a few times because I easily get sucked into what's going on in the game. Overall it's not a bad thing, but it can definitely become problematic in certain circumstances, and especially if it happens a lot... Open communication with my DM about it has helped. Another thing that helps is stepping back (physically or mentally/emotionally) and reminding myself that D&D is a game - sometimes what happens is just how the dice roll.
Yeah, I'm struggling with this right now. Two players just got our party into a guilt by association situation by their totally bumbling attempt to get into the criminal underground, and in the process gave away some of my character's secrets that they'd known about for one day. Because I have no interest playing a character on the run, and see no reason my character would trust them again after this, I'm as pissed in the real world as my character will be in game. (The law just picked up my character and the rest of the party as known associates, she doesn't actually know yet what happened.) I am calmer after sitting with it a couple of days, but I don't see a way forward that will be the kind of game I can enjoy. Sigh.
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong/toxic with that. It depends on context; Like if you roll a Natural 1 in a combat situation and the DM goes overboard saying 'Oh your Sword immediately shatters and shards of it cut you'. THAT IS EXCESSIVE AND UNFAIRLY CRUEL!!! Another situation is if the DM plays with "Perma-Death" that is F**king Bulls**t & Evil! There are many other examples of excess and cruelty but those are 2 of them! Like with that "Natural 1 scenario": If instead the DM says, 'You miss the enemy and slightly strain your wrist'. That is reasonable enough if they still want some "Thematic Consequence" for a Natural 1.
Great point about the "Extra dimensional jerk". 90% of all dnd horror stories "bad guys" are not bad players, they're just not decent human beings. Being somewhat mature and open to discussion avoid almost all problems in dnd.
I've recently had this experience from a player I've had in my games on/off for the last 30 years. My last campaign we brought in a new voice and he just went south on them stating "Not being obligated to get along with everyone." Which is fair, but he was getting downright rude at the table. Thankfully he's opted out of our next and future campaign.
Yeah I've only had to deal with one in my time as a gm talked to him multiple times and was about to ask him to just not come to the next session when his character died safe to say none of the players wanted to revive him and I never got with him to roll up a new character I tried talking to him many times and he just actively didn't care about other players fun and was getting to the point of ruining my time as the gm
50% of "bad guys" are probably autistic and the authors can't handle someone who needs communication more direct than rolling your eyes in disapproval.
A lot of it is just what group you're in. For ex the drunkenness/drugs thing. We have a rule where when your character does a drug/drinks, you must do the irl equivalent. It's a blast! We love it. Enhances the experience a ton and it's one of our favorite homebrew ideas we've had. Clearly some would not like that based on it's inclusion in the video. Not wanting to do them would be one thing, and occasionally we'll refuse when we're plenty fucked up, and that's fine. But not wanting OTHERS to get fucked up would make you the extra dimensional jerk in our game. Or, for many I'm sure that wanting the game to be squeaky clean w no sex or murder would make you the jerk when these are themes everyone else wants to explore. A lot of these are less about being a jerk, and more about being in the wrong group, either irl or in game.
As a GM, one thing I've seen bogging down combat the most is people not remembering the turn order. I made a simple system. I folded index cards in half for each character and monster, and I put them over the top of my GM screen, with the names on both sides. I put them in initiative order and shift it one entity as their turn passes. This makes sure everyone can see exactly how close they are to acting, who's before them, who's after them, etc. It seems to help.
@@colinsmith1495 You are a gentleman and a scholar. It's pretty standard in videogame turn-based RPGs... and I never ever thought of it for an actual TTRPG campaign.
Theres also actually a reverse anti-adventurer, a player who bee-lines the main story so hard that no other interesting side events can occur. We had a moment in our game where we came across a lady offering us a place to sleep in exchange for a story, and the problem player told everyone no and kept going. We suffered a point of exhaustion because of it, which he got to ignore because he had a coffee-esque item
That's a good point! There's also another kind of anti-adventurer, which is the "what's my motivation?" roleplayer. That's me, when I'm not actively guarding against it. "We were supposed to find the kid in the cave. Here's the cave. Here's the kid. We're done. Why would we explore the rest of cave? What's in the cave? It's probably dangerous. And we're not being paid to go spelunking, we're being paid to save the kid. This kid. Right here. Mission accomplished. So let's go get our gold and hit the bar." Well, there *is always* a reason to explore the cave. Maybe I missed the clues, or maybe the GM didn't foreshadow it well enough, but either way, the rest of the cave probably wouldn't be there if we weren't supposed to explore it. It's probably very important for the plot. So just because my character would be like "Peace, bro", twin-spell invisibility on me and the kid, and sneak our way back to town for the reward, I have to take a deep breath and just roll with it. Because I've legitimately upset a couple of GMs in the past who had some big thing they needed us to find/learn for the overall plot that I just convinced everyone to walk away from before we even got there. Nowadays, I'm more likely to say "Let's take the kid home, get our gold, grab some supplies, take a long rest, and explore the rest of the cave tomorrow morning when we're fresh. Why? Fucked if I know. It just feels like something we need to do. Just in case."
@@theunluckybard7517This is why the GM should put major plot points between the players and the objective, because saying “I'm not getting paid to explore a cave, I'm being paid to rescue a kid” is entirely valid. Or have the kid point you further into the cave with another plot point, like the person who kidnapped them and will most likely capture another person or a group of goblins planning to raid the town. Honestly sounds like an inexperienced GM (not that I have much room to talk, myself)
@@Damini368 It can be inexperience, but sometimes it's just a GM brain fart. I've been DMing since ad&d2e, but I still made that mistake myself once in a potentially catastrophic way. The very first adventure for a long-running campaign had the PCs being hired to "go find out why people seem to be disappearing in this previously-safe section of the woods." So they go out there, they poke around, and they discover an enormous ancient ruined city has just appeared from nowhere in the middle of this forest. Obviously, I'm expecting them to enter the ruin. One PC had bought a spyglass, so I let them see the sparkles of gold and the faint magical auras of treasure in the ruin when they looked through it. That PC put away his spyglass and said "Ok, we've found out why people are disappearing. They're going into that weird new ruin to look for loot. Let's go back and report our findings. Mission accomplished." The whole rest of the campaign hinged on them going into that ruin. I was trying to figure out how to re-write the adventure so the rest of the game could go on *without* them having seen the inside of the ruin, and I guess it was showing on my face, because the player looked at me, sighed, and said "All right, gang, let's go explore this ruin..."
So much of this can be eliminated via a "Session 0". When I was informed of this concept after about 15 years of running games, I realized it was the best thing that could have happened to RPGs!
@@akuokami1677 Session Zero is basically a pre-campaign meeting. All the players and the GM get together to set out the ground rules and expectations for the game. The exact details will vary, but in my games, I aim to get everyone on the same page regarding the tone of the game, any subjects we want to avoid or tread lightly around, and what each player wants out of the game. Depending on the game, it might involve character creation, or a chance to work out a group backstory, or give players who have never met a chance to get to know each other. In my experience, 99% of RPG problems can be avoided or mitigated with open communication, so this is a perfect place to open that dialogue.
I will also add it doesn't have to be "pre-game." Could be done at any point if issue arise to help get down to the root of the issue or just to make sure everyone is still enjoying the game.
Making your intentions known in a session 0 is so important. What you want in game. Get a feel of the party. Ask questions. Red flags? Try and resolve before you play. Or just don’t play with them”
The issue I've come across is that a lot is people lie as easily as they breathe and then get mad the game is EXACTLY AS ADVERTISED. "What, why do you keep asking me if I want to RP?" -Person who joined the RP-heavy campaign on roll20 and was told in session 0 it was going to be heavy on RP and what that meant exactly before they agreed each time.
I love the idea of a session zero. Next time I DM (our group takes turns) I think I'll do mini sessions via text. My team is mostly people who are afraid to rock the boat so doing it that way might help them open up moreb
Chaotic/Stupid is also common enough to be worth mentioning, where the player is constantly doing stupid or completely random things on purpose at inopportune times trying to derail things, and then tries to hide behind "it's what my character would do".
Got a dood in my game where he is in a cell and a shadow syndicate lead has a gun pointed at him and it's like watching a train wreck because he keeps saying things that would get him killed and the dm is trying to keep him alive but he just keeps choosing bad dialog options lol
I was pissed last time I started a campaign; told my players in session 0 that it was a dark theme, moody and serious most of the time with just a little humor here and there to contrast that. Had a player make a ranger who's profession was tracker, and named it "Werdafugami" as in.. where the F am I. I knew as soon as I saw that, he was completely ignoring my theme and would not be a fit. I tried talking to him, but he was flippant irl. (looking back I think it may have had something to do with me being a female GM) He only lasted about 3 weeks before all the other players came to me and expressed a desire to stop playing with him. We moved the game to another location and didn't tell him.
I accidentally fell into the archtype of 'Enemy' because my 1st dm was a 'minimalist' & he likes to challenge us to surprise him, even going as far as rewarding the player for new ideas! Nowadays I realize the importance of talking to the dm, but it was hella fun to bring in stuff that can really surprise the table! Rest in peace Gray
I like to not be surprised where a move comes from but how it's used. One of my favorite moments yet was in a city of mist campaign where the players were trapped in a deeper layer of dreaming and they had no idea precisely what's going on, they thought only people interacting with them spawned so it must have been a perception filter so they decided to hold a loud-ass illegal rock concert doing which the rocker stopped holding back and used his power (which is basically cartoon hammerspace) to pull out a blimp for the show and rocked hardcore. This allowed the walls between the two dream stages to thin out enough that an ally of theirs could literally dive in there through the walls to extract them. I had planned a more prolonged introspection arc where they'd have reoccuring nightmares whenever they fell asleep, about their powers going out of control because of their own personal flaws. But their idea made so much sense as a breakthrough climax that it simply HAD to work. It didn't come cheap either, the player overtaxed his hammerspace ability with that and it broke.
While it can be hard to do, give problematic players the benefit of the doubt. Approach them assuming they have good intentions and just don't realize what's going on. It's the best way to make sure everyone can continue to have fun together.
Extremely important advice, when it becomes a clear pattern of behaviour then yeah definitely raise it, but we all have bad days so the benefit of the doubt is extremely important to keeping your group together.
I agree. Communication is so important in any social interaction. A lot of times just talking it out can help both sides understand each other and reach a good conclusion
im the backseat gamer or whatever he said, its not that I know alot about the game I just have like an IRL +10 to insight checks, like why tf would a guard want to meet us in a cave that has no miners in it and is probably abandoned? why is he alone? where is his spear when his stat block now shows only a sword? I have a hard time RPing a dumber character, im stuck as the wizard or cleric now
I agree, a lot of player horror stories I see usually mention that the problem player is a newbie. Which makes me think the person telling the story just isn’t very patient with first time players. And that can turn you into the problem GM in that person’s horror story
The enemy isn’t bad if you all agree at Session 0. My college campaign was a power-gaming meat grinder hellscape where the GM’s goal was to kill us and it was our job to thwart their every scheme. It was great.
@@firvantavan2793That depends entirely on the players and how fair you want to make the encounters. Throwing a pit fiend against a level 5 party or your players not being to experienced to play in such an optimal setting is indeed an easy job. But having a group of maximized players using broken combo's in a fight against a even enemy is alot harder.
@@Dragonmacher I would have killed any level 5 party with a reasonable encounter, no doubt about it. All DMs know how they throw strategy out the window for the players to stand a chance. You just don't do that, and then the characters die. 🤷♂️
@firvantavan2793 as a DM, I disagree with this. Of course, it's true in the sense that we can drop 100 ancient gold dragons on them. But in your world is 100 ancient gold dragons showing up out of nowhere, a thing what would likely happen in that moment? Of course not. If we don't hit the "bend or break reality button" and you're playing a reasonable balanced encounter skilled players can really shut down what you're trying to do.
I once had two "snails" in the same party of 6 PCs. Not only did they each take a very long time, as others were taking a turn they would take talk about what they should have done. I started using an egg timer to limit time, and after a few sessions they both saw the light and were prepared to act promptly.
Our Snail always played wizards who all had the goal of acquiring every spell in the game. So not only was he a snail every combat, but also every long rest.
I contend that, other than the New Player, all the Snails are Inattentive Snails in addition to whatever other kind of Snail they are. Like, seriously, you have *nothing else to do* while all the other players are taking their turns. At my table, a full round is at least 20 minutes, if everyone's queued up and ready to go. What else do you have to do BUT figure out your options for your next move??? Make a plan, and make an alternative plan in case the battlefield changes in such a way as to make your first plan not great anymore. You've got all the time in the fucking world to figure it out! Unless you're spending that time on your phone....
@@theunluckybard7517 I was the new player in the group I play with. I've always tried to be sure I'm not the one slowing things down by planning out a couple different actions I could take once my turn comes. In most cases my turn usually only takes under a minute total and usually only goes over that when things have changed drastically.
Ironically, I did experience that pineapple pizza thing in a way. We had a player who, despite being told multiple times that I was allergic to mushrooms, add them to our pizza orders whenever they were left in charge, and then offer me a slice full well knowing I couldn't have any. It took me basically dropping the ultimatum "if I can't eat, I won't pay" before the rest of the table even noticed this. Fortunately, they backed me.
@@benpepin7872 If someone did that because it was "funny" to them, they'd be straight up kicked out of my group. You don't mess with a person's money or health, and they messed with both.
My group had a protagonist problem, only we didn't know just how bad it was. She was in a relationship with the main DM and would constantly complain in private about how she didn't do anything during that session despite taking over what was obviously intended for another player. It killed his desire to play those campaigns and so many fun stories have been lost. Thankfully he broke up with her so hopefully we might get to visit a few revamped versions.
We also had a problem with a protagonist. Besides the fact that he could not count his own bonuses and therefore his smite was always too high to the point that it was me who checked his results because the DM had something else to do than watch theroll of his players, his characters were problematic. Not in the wrong sense, just he created unstable characters with a peculiarity that gave the GM a huge advantage because he want to be more in the story. The problem is that we were in a dark fantasy version of DnD, Midnight and the MJ was crushing us enough without our own team shooting us in the foot. When the GM puts us in a situation where the death of a character is very difficult to avoid, he does not need help... Tendencies to try to be a protagonist culminated until he accidentally set our boat on fire and stabbed a pregnant character. The husband of the character and the barbarian took it badly so they have PK him. Now he’s calmed down a bit but his next character is just as problematic:(
This was a shockingly normal thing back in the day. To the point where many of us grognards from previous editions still flinch whenever a DM mentions bringing in their girlfriend. The combination of blatant favoritism, arguments, and sometimes jealousy has tanked many a campaign.
I used to play with my ex bf who was the DM and I would RELIGIOUSLY lock myself in the bedroom during sessions to not hear anything or see his screen. HE was the one wanting to tell me what he was preparing because he was very excited to play, it was hard to say no. I remember complaining to him as a new player but quickly understood it wasn't personal if something wrong happened to my character. We broke up two years ago and still play together to this day.
Bad habits can often be transformed into skills that benefit everyone. I can talk too much, but I'm also a fabulous note taker, so I've become lore keeper and constantly scribbling helps me balance conversation better. Player#2 can be a backseat gamer, so we made them our rules lawyer, but they're only allowed to rule when asked. Player#3 tends to be quiet and might unconsciously check out during conflict, but that means they had extra space to keep track of initiative/concentration/conditions.
Even without a need for busywork to maintain interest... if the players offer to help me with the number crunching and paperwork, and I can do this without giving up (much) information they shouldn't have, then you bet your ass I'm going to accept the help. That's why I've adopted Matt Colville's method of tracking monster HP: _you don't._ You track the damage done instead, which is a number the players have access to. That means it can be shown in the open, which in turn means the players can do this calculation. Then all I have to do is say "bloodied", "wobbly", and "down" at the appropriate times (because I know the monster HP), and this gives me spare brain cycles to think of entertaining ways to do that. When we get to regenerating creatures, I subtract the regen from the running damage total until we get close to the 0 HP range at which point I switch over to tracking their HP similar to everyone else's. At that point the party already knows what they're up against so at most, I'm clarifying what "wobbly" means in numerical terms (single digit HP or under 10%, whichever is greater -- low-HP monsters just skip this condition). Basically this means I can farm out initiative tracking and combat tracking entirely, if a player wants to take it over. Enemy spell slots work similarly to HP, I just track them backward, so instead of seeing 4332 and decrementing from those, they effectively start with an unknown number of zeros and count UP. I allow players to query either the school of magic OR the spell slot level of a spell being cast, and they almost always pick the spell slot level, so again I'm not revealing anything by publicly marking that an enemy has used a 4th level spell slot. It still doesn't tell the players how many are left, or what the maximum spell level of the enemy is. The more I can do "in front of the screen", the more I can delegate it to the players without giving out massive spoilers. This makes life _so_ much easier, and cuts down on critical errors. We still screw up, but if three people were involved and nobody noticed at the time, it probably wasn't that critical. Even if it is, they can no longer blame it all on me.🤣
When I played my first TTRPG, I kinda _had_ to be the anti-adventurer, because it was a setting my brother had made up, and he had told me the whole plot 2-3 years prior, so I just kinda had to stay on he sidelines so my other brother could enjoy the adventure properly. When our GM later asked me why I was so passive, and I explained that I remembered the whole plot, he was actually happy that I didn't spoil anything, and admitted he forgot he told me about this adventure. At least I got to help out in combat, and decapitate a guy high on shrooms with an arrow, so that's nice.
4:02 That's one of the best things of DnD. I remember a great moment for a character of mine that was quite serious thanks to a bad roll on insight, where he ended up helping a goblin that had stolen from him to avenge their cat pal from the "purple worm" that had bursted their head. Long story short, that "purple worm" was in fact an intellect devourer that had attacked his friend. With my kobold sorcerer supporting the goblin (who was using my character's skillet and a torch to make a mace, and a strainer and a pot for the armor) to take this beast. He was like don quixote with the windmills, but due to some really funny rolls, the goblin, who would've probably died if the rolls hadn't been so good, kept dodging and critting with his "legendary weapon", so my character played a support role for this delusional warrior, so the goblin could deal the finishing blow, using bigby's hand to push them upwards for the finishing blow and Rime's binding ice so the enemy didn't move. When my kobold found his way back to the rest of the group, dragging the corpse of the intellect devourer, with the blood of the beast over his scales and a tired but happy face, and talked about this amazing warrior who defeated the beast to avenge his fallen partner, and after that fell unconscious due to being exhausted, since he had been lost on the desert for the whole night. It was a story that I think we will remember for quite a long time. Sometimes rolling badly allows for amazing roleplay moments (I'll admit, I wanted my character to roll poorly on that one, so when I rolled a 3, I was static.)
The reason Toxic Players seem so numerous is because they are always looking for a new game, having gotten thrown out of or ruining their last game. Good Players are playing in Good Games 😊
Ooh good point. No other D&D group in my area that plays at the same time as mine will be playing D&D with me or any of the lovely people I play with, because we’re busy enjoying each other’s company. A problematic player, however, doesn’t have a prior commitment bc they trashed the last one
Or maybe it's just the same reason why other bad things seem numerous: they get talked about a lot. Rarely you see videos or posts talking about good players, but there are whole forums to talk about the bad ones.
Very true. I've let go of some good players because they didn't fit the kind of game I was running and the dynamic I want at our table. My time and energy is limited so I make clear choices to prevent myself from having to handle a group instead of participating in fun, relaxed sessions. @@AlyssMa7rin
The funny thing is that if you'd shown clips from extremely early episodes of a certain popular streaming play group, you'd have had the perfect example of both the protagonist and the snail in one person.
@@BodharasI mean, in this case they're just pointing out an example. It just so happens said person exhibited basically all of these toxic traits at the same table.
The most important thing is talk to the players. Most behaviors can be adjusted by pointing out the issues and any solutions. I had this one player in my game where he was overpowered and basically taking out the enemies in a single hit. I had issues trying to balance because I was a new GM. I talked with him and the issue was fixed, he was a GM so understood how to help me. He ended up setting up other characters and had a great time. I don't allow 'lone-wolf' characters in any of my games. Had this one player that was a combination of Protagonist, Backseat Gamer, Subverter, Edgelord, and Extra Dimensional Jerk and he was the worst person to deal with, the scariest thing was he was a GM and a really toxic one. I talked with this player 4 separate times and it kept being a problem. Another problem is that he kept playing the same character a 'lone-wolf' that didn't like the work with other and kept high-jacking the game at every single opportunity. It was funny one game that player did that and the GM said 'ok the character wanders off make a new character. this time make one that actually wants to work with people'. The player ended up dropping that game.
There are ways to play an Anti-Adventurer well, it just relies a bit on communication with the DM. One of my characters was just a travelling salesman who has always wanted to travel to the feyrealm because thats where their family comes from and they dont remember anything about their family. My DM made it so that their cart was stolen and while getting it back (with a few sessions in between) the party found out that the people who had stolen my characters cart had also stolen a tablet we were trying to get from another person, and they went into the feywild. Point being, as long as you cooperate with the party and DM, you can still manage to make a character like this work out well
Our teams snail is new, but also distracted. She spends the time playing on her phone, zoning out, or trying to have conversations during the game. I think she is just there to hang with us, which is fine, just wish she wouldn't be surprised everytime it's her turn in combat and has to fumble through her apps to make a decision.
@@syrupchugger421 that sounds a bit like me during our last session, granted i have adhd. but give her a bit of time, as a new player, i feel overwhelmed a lot during playtime cause there are a lot of things to keep track of so i tend to zone out or fumble with the maths and what spells do
@@erensrightnut I'm not worried about her behavior. I'm sure she doesn't care much for the game but just enjoys hanging out with us and that's fine by me
I totally forgot there was a D&D episode of Voltron. Man that was a good show. But onto the actual video, this is extremely helpful not only for spotting "problem players" but avoiding becoming that problem player yourself
Backseat gamer, here! This video genuinely helped me realize that this is my problematic behavior. 'Course, I'm going to apologize to the people I've done it to in my current campaign but it really got me thinking about the reasons why it happens. The campaign I'm currently in is really tough combatively, something we all knew when we signed up. A few of the players, though, are fairly new and so making mistakes in combat gets me really worried about character death - both for them and for myself. Losing your character which you care about because of someone else's fuckup is not fun. Thinking about this, I'll probably bring it up to the DM and communicate that concern to see if we can make combat a little more forgiving! Thank you for taking an empathetic approach.
You can also talk to the newer players outside of game time, maybe give them a few pointers. I've known players who didn't necessarily understand what their characters could do, but with a little discussion that could be greatly improved.
It's something that I tend towards, and I need to actively stop myself sometimes. A degree of helping other players can be beneficial, but I think you should err firmly on the side of letting them make their own imperfect decisions
this drives me nuts too, when the other people at the table play suboptimal and i'm supposed to just keep my mouth shut and go along with it, because apparently giving tactical advice like "why don't we focus attack 1 at a time instead of everyone soloing their own foe" or "do you all think you could hang back for a second , so i can cast a web spell and not fricking catch you in it?" is "backseat gaming". (the aeo thing was just the one time i tried to play a wizard and nobody would listen to me when i wanted to cast an aoe spell without hitting them in friendly fire and i realize i could have just been an evocation wizard to get the spell shaping ability so they don't get hit by it, but i wanted to be a conjurer instead) like in anither different campaign, i had to sit silently and endure the utter frustration sitting there trying to fight 3 undead gorillas, while 2 party members are down and i'm a melee class and the other wizard is just sitting there casting blade ward every turn for 3 turns in a row(true story) , not helping and i'm asking don't you have any other spells? and everyone is staring at me like i'm the a-hole
@@Femaiden Funny, nobody at our table has a problem with other folks making suggestions or asking them to hang back for a certain spell, etc. That's called strategy.
@@badnewsBH yeah, well this was in Adventure League, often sotting at tables with people i only met for the first time and we go in and nobody has any sort of plan of action, they all just go in their own direction and solo the monster in front of them and any time i tried to offer any advice or anything, i always get snapped at for "metagaming" or "don't tell me how to play my character". . like one guy at one tabke was just casting spells every turn with way more spell points than he could possibly have and often was casting spells from other classes that he shouldn't even have had access to and i had to keep my mouth shut about it. .the DM didn't even catch on until 2 hours later. . and then there was the other guy i talked about who did nothing but cast blade ward every turn while my character was getting beaten to a pulp. . i think the DM pulled punches there though, because we somehow made it through that encounter just barely.
I think it was very important and perfectly worded when talking about how some characters can play this type of story that’s truly just a fantasy to them back to somebody at the table may actually ring too close to home and reality, ruining the escapism, and bringing up traumatic events etc. people tend to do this quite often I’m multiple different situations
Thank you very much for this video. We are in the testing phase of my game system and one of my players is very troublesome after each session making rude remarks about other people taking too long and overall complaining about everything from start to finish in the session. The other players thankfully hop in to defend the validity of changes and shut down any rude comments. I also have addressed that player with respect and politeness, but I don't want them to feel like I'm against them, and this was very helpful as they match 2 different problem player types. Thank you again. Love your content.
The number of these that relate to players being afraid of how failing will affect their fun (for lack of a better word) suggests that GMs making sure that bad rolls and missteps are still entertaining experiences (and sometimes create opportunities, not always punishments) is generally good practice.
I did fall into the second trap recently, though id argue fairly minor, but our sorcerer had taken True Strike as a cantrip. I couldnt help but suggest they switch away from that awful spell as soon as possible.
But it's like the best spell in the gaaaaaaaaaaaaaame! It can give me advaaaaaaaantaaaaaaaaaage! :D Only saying that, because you just know that _some_ idiot's gonna come along and do it, so might as well be the one who's kidding. XD
Let him use true strike ^^. The dm will find a way to buff that cantrip. My idea would be: till your next turn every player has advantage against that creature and maybe even change to a bonus action.
I worry sometimes that I am falling into the “backseat” habit. This is because I play quite a few games where I’m the experienced one and am in a mentor role now. So I worry if I’m overstepping when I bring up a rule or remind others about features, traits, magic items, and spells they have. Part of this is the I’m the note taker. Other part is the I have photographic memory and between that and my enthusiastic research of the phb and other important source books when I first started the hobby, I have pretty much most if not every single rule, memorized. Now, that doesn’t mean I will not abide by a ruling a dm makes or that I hold against a player a less than wise or inefficient decision, I don’t, I’ll merely ask them to clarify and accommodate. That doesn’t mean my intentions are perceived that way but I am well intentioned. However, I do worry, since at some of my tables, I feel the players and/or dm might be becoming over reliant on my input and I don’t want this to breed resentment done the line, even if the table finds it alright now. So I try to keep an eye on my habits and when I pitch in.
@@RocKaFella57 lol oh heck no I could never do that. It would go against every single one of my caretaking instincts. Being the center of attention is so not my thing.
Understand that Back-Seat Gaming can be appreciated by some who don't keep track of stuff too much. So you would be far less toxic than some on the list. You sound a lot more intelligent than me, but I have also fell into a similar role because I'm a veteran player and I'm patient with new players as I explain the rules. My advice is, try to remember to to stay humble and let some make mistakes. That photographic memory must make it a bit hard not to interject sometimes though. I once played an intentionally neurotic strategist who was trying to work on trusting other people to sort of work on it, 😂.
Former teacher here so I apologize if this sounds lectury. Probably the most fair "solution" would be to limit the advice you offer to explaining mechanics that others appear to be unclear on and don't offer suggestions unless specifically asked. One thing you can do is ask them if they're asking the question or their character is. This will help them realize there's a difference and give you a bit of direction on how to respond. If they're asking in character then you should absolutely limit your response to what your character would know and let those chips fall where they may...let the wackiness ensue! If, instead, they're asking as the player, a good technique is to repeat their question back to them. This serves to both confirm you heard them correctly and often times is enough of a prompt to get the asker to give the potential answer a second thought themselves...kind of a jumpstart for their thought process. But the absolute best way you can help players learn is to teach by example. They'll pick up on how you play and try to mimic you to some degree, either consciously or subconsciously. So give them a good example: make good choices; make bad choices; have fun with those choices regardless; ask he DM the occasional question (especially if you think it's a question one of the other players is too nervous to ask...and if you absolutely are certain you know the answer, phrase it as "asking for clarification on their interpretation"); ask the other players questions yourself ("What do you think we should do here?") and don't be afraid to run w/whatever they suggest. And finally, keep it firmly in your mind that for as much as you know, you don't know everything about the game. You'll learn as much from those new players as they'll learn from you.
I do agree with these previous advices. I usually tend to go with: if it's not my turn I shouldn't have anything to say aside reacting to what's happening (like saying "nice shot" or laughing to a funny situation, etc..) Just like in every game, people can learn to play, no need to hold their hand every step of the way, unless they want it. I have seen a game where two people were bashing a third one with advices and criticism on how he handled the situation. I tried to tell them he was doing Ok (he wasn't but that was creating a funny situation). After a few minutes of that, the player just left. It took the DM about 3 or 4 sessions to repair the damages done and another player left the game because of that. What I mean by that exemple is: telling others what to do can take away their enjoyment of the game. I would even go as far as to say, if someone ask what to do, it could sometimes benefit them to say "figure it out yourself" or something along those lines. Learning a game is part of the fun imo. Making mistakes as well. Especially in DnD where there is no scores, no winning or loosing. There is only having fun.
I always enjoy seeing videos like this, because every now and then I see something and go "wait, oh shit I do that sometimes" and now I know to stop. Remember kids, you're not a bad player for doing these things, a lot of them are pretty normal, you're a bad player if you realize or are told you're doing it and don't stop
You forgot the butterfingered snail, who, inevitability, as soon as they touch the dice, the dice are on the floor, under the table, rolling out the door and into a fissure. The next five minutes is the said player lying on the floor fumbling for a dice which has fallen into the aether.
This video has been very useful for me, thank you!! For context, I watched this and saw parts of myself in some of the "toxic players" you listed (not to any extremes but the traits are there). This video has pointed out those issues, so I can start breaking some bad habits. 👍
I have a home rule called "roll for role play" everyone rolls a d20 and high numbers go first. Everyone has 5 minutes to speak before moving on to the next player. It keeps going till everyone says what they want to say. It helps with talking over each other and helps the more quiet players engage more.
We've been experimenting with a 1 minute timer and I think it helps. It's a soft timer, though. Basically, you have one minute to get your plan in motion. Sometimes it takes a while to resolve the effects of a good plan! Catch 5 enemies in a carefully aimed fireball? That's just going to take some time to resolve the saves and damage, and that's without factoring in movement and bonus actions. You have 1 minute to ask a question or two for clarification if you need to, make a last second adjustment based on that information, and off you go. If you're still sitting there after 60 seconds, you take the dodge action and usually that only happens once in a session.
DMing my first campaign and I incorporated the 1 minute between rounds for the party to discuss a plan homebrew rule, and they all love it. They get some time to plan as a group, and then once it's their turn, they aren't sitting there trying to figure out what to do. Has definitely kept combat fun and faster paced.
The 1 minute timer is excellent for combat. It helps to immerse yourself into the hectic nature of an actual fight and force you into quick thinking like in one, too. Our DM uses it and everyone in our friend group adapted it into all other campaigns as well
I always watch videos like this and try to apply what’s being said to how I conduct myself at the table. I know I’m not perfect (nobody is), and there’s always a chance to look back and see how to learn to handle the bad situations just a bit better. Also, your yellow hat looks amazing!
I think one that you might have missed (or could go in the snail player): the oblivious player. This is the kind of player that has to keep asking what's going on because they're either not paying attention cuz they are bored or they are distracted by something else. These kinds of players are a problem for the group because they constantly have to be updated on what everybody else already knows which slows down the game play.
i have a tendency towards this - I have ADHD! So I keep notes of everything. I'm not the note-taker for session recaps, but i keep notes of names, initiative, our to-do list, bits like that. It's more for myself than anything cause everyone else tends to remember, but my notes have proven handy a few times! I also have the bag of holding so i keep inventory for that.
I have a recovering protagonist. It took a while, but one day I said the magic words and he's been gradually becoming more and more of a team player. Currently, the main issue is that he leaves the party behind to have one-on-one conversations with NPCs too often and most of them [the aforementioned conversations] don't require that much privacy. I've brought it to his attention and he's been toning it down with each session. For that issue specifically, I said "Your moment will come naturally as time goes on. Being alone will not accelerate that nor will it synthesize the moment. It only forces your party members to wait until you are done with your business. That feeling you may or may not get when I spend a decent amount of time focused on one other player? That is how everyone feels when you do this often. On occasion or when it's important to your character is fine, but it can't be all the time unless there is something literally causing you to be away from the party."
Honestly I’d also recommend him to join a text-based RP group. Our entire group would count as a protagonist at a table setting, or would check out of the game and be a snail. But it’s set up so that there’s the group public chat, private chats between characters, and a “secret” chat for player-DM/NPC conversations. It leads to a lot of interesting dynamics as the players bring new dynamics to the group chat in between major group events, like one player just outright getting engaged to a nymph he had met at a previous mission and had continued seeing during his “downtime” from the rest of the party. It also means that snails are less of a problem (due to the nature of text based, there’s really no dedicated game time just whenever you see the notification) because individuals (or the DM if they’re bored) can just go “so… wanna hit up a bar, go on a hike, etc?” And set the interaction to sometime before or after whatever is going on in group. So if your one party member is taking two weeks to pick a servant for a fate-based game… you and the other player can get hammered while the DM role plays the French martyr and English myth figure beating the snot out of each other. But this kind/level of interaction would be very difficult to pull off at a real table, and inevitably monopolize one player. I was always more of a snail because I couldn’t get that much into the RP because it was missing those little moments… and the text based approach was just eye opening for me
Fails can be incredibly funny...like when you cast the spell knock on a metal door while your party members all touch said door, then proceeds to cast crit fail on saves on a random trap also attached to said metal door...in my case, i ended up with 4 talking limbs on a stick (party "members"), my character class changed from sorc to bard due to failed save to trap interactions with various magic items on group and the door sunk into the nether realm, turning the stairs behind said door unenterable by just any means...a potentially great start to an adventure turned into a 1 session (6 hours) of belly laughing and no sequel session...it caused actual physical pains and memories I'll never forget. 😂
We have one that's a combo. He is highly competitive and as DM openly tries to kill the players and is mad anytime we get a good roll, turning any outcome to harm us. As a player he is murderhobo edgelord. We have all talked to him and nothing changes it. He is family (my teenage nephew) so we don't kick him. One thing we have done is the "team veto" if everyone in his team votes against him randomly lighting the NPCs house on fire to murder everyone (true story) then he has to pick another action. This way if everyone is on board with it have at it. We havent had to actually use the team veto since we started it, so it seems to have helped. Thank you for the video
I used the timer for a while and it helped with the general mindset both for my players and for me (bc I was a rather fresh DM when I used it). I play online, so technical difficulties are just normal, and I ran a campaign with six players which is a LOT when you don't see people's faces to read their intentions and people have to explain every single thing, and on top of that my players love to chat and discuss their options in great detail. All that strang the combat sooooo much even on levels 1-2 when combat is pretty straight-forward. So we played with the timer for a few sessions just to keep things a bit more dynamic. It was a bit too much, so now instead of a precise timer I just remind the players that their turn takes six seconds when I feel like they have a full-on strategy council in the middle of a fight or if they are not entirely certain which of two options to pick and take forever to make a choice. "You got six seconds, buddy!" is a powerful phrase)
My worst experience has actually come from a "snail" in roleplay with a dash of protagonist mixed in. They always make sure to tell everyone how their character is waving their arms, what face they're making, how they're hard to see in their robes, or what noises there are when opening their spooky book, or how fast they're writing in it every SINGLE TIME IN EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER AND SCENE. A one minute interaction becomes a twenty minute interaction. Every thing said within earshot of them has to be responded to and they become roped into the conversation. After the 100th time talking about how your tail flicks around in annoyance, you scrunch up your face, or wave your arm in exasperation, we don't need a description of it AGAIN! A 2 session dungeon becomes a 5.5 session dungeon, and I wish I was exaggerating, but the DM said was only meant to be a 2 session dungeon, given how small it was (1 session to get there with some roleplay, meet some characters in it and roleplay, some combat then session two would conclude the interactions with the characters after a boss fight and our group deciding what quest we want to accept next and some ending roleplay)! This is, of course, not to say role play is bad... just be aware of when you've spent maybe too much time in the spotlight, and if people really need to know what your character is doing, if it adds anything to the scene, and if you've already said it a dozen times before. And of course, when it's time to maybe move the story forward a bit.
People who insist on roleplaying everything (every shop purchase etc.) are the worst. Same with DMs who have critical plot points based around one characters backstory.
I went to meet up for DnD one time, 6 of us and the GM. The GM spent the entire 4.5 hours on 2 players shopping in town. Nobody else had a turn. I basically drove 25 miles to watch others play the game.... And that was the 2nd to last meet until we went on hiatus. I waited for about 1 year for everyone to get back together, only two find out it had been disbanded months before, and nobody told me...
Something that may be of benefit to newer players is to have a player mentor--someone that can help answer questions about the game, the character stats/abilities, etc, that any new player to the table can approach with questions. Having a mentor GM for when someone is wanting to learn how to narrate the adventures would be helpful too. Often following what the big names on the screen tell you is very wrong for your group and it truly sucks breaking new players from those habits.
I run a post-apocalyptic dark fantasy RPG, everyone loved the game's heavier theme, however when playing it didn't take long until there were several subverters at the table, there was a character who was retired after getting married and living a peaceful life without wanting to venture out, or who ignored the main plot saying "I'll level it first".
I'm our groups forever DM and I've now realised that when I once got to play a PC in a oneshot I was a horrible backseat gamer. The problem is that I genuinly knew more about the mechanical abilities of the other peoples characters because I 1. helped them create them and 2. am our groups rules guru. It's still no reason to tell my bro to smite now (although that should have been a given xD). I realise my sin Mr. Shorts and will better myself!
Timer works great for large groups with 8+ party members (weird, but I've run then typically single sessions though). It adds the urgency that there is limited time that players tend to naturally make decisions quickly to the point where I stopped using it but just told them they're on a time limit.
Man I remember when "Edgelord" meant like, a super dark and brooding character. Not like, a psychopath, but just like Batman but also kills. Wearing red and black, all leather, low voice, makes every situation related to their personal trauma. I don't know when it started meaning "someone who has different lines that they're unafraid to cross" but now I have nothing to call my brooding, dual-wielding, randomly-stealthing and deeply traumatised characters.
1 minute hourglass timer is a good idea. If you have a 5-6 player party, it can help with out if combat situations that requires all players contribute. Keeps in-game conversations moving, reduces chances of protagonists taking over.
6:46 Yes! Please! I have been wanting a video like that for years! I had a minmaxer that was actually a good sport, and as a new DM and even know adays, I still don't mind that kind of play style as long as their not being rude about it. That being said, I'm still trying to find that balance of letting them have fun, but still be challenging and not a complet stomp for everyone, and not having the minmaxer feel like they are just overshadowing everyone else.
I don't think minimaxing in DnD is a problem at all, or that it exists, for that matter. In terms of stats, the most you get at the start is -1 to +3, and there's no way to be particularly good or particularly bad at anything. You can't be a glass cannon by dumbing everything down and making one stat 30 or something like that. Sure, you can play an optimised character or build combos, but the game assumes that you will be optimised to some extent (e.g. that you will have 16 on your main stat)
I’m in a party with a guy who sorta craps on everyone’s ideas, yet never offers any solutions of his own. I asked him straight up, at the table, “do you poop on every idea so that if it goes wrong, you can say, ‘see, I told you so’?” I felt, even as I was speaking, that it was too confrontational, but he laughed and said, “yeah, I guess so, sorry” and that was that. It’s better now, particularly if we can manage to ask him his ideas first.
That sounds like a subset of the anti-adventurer to me, of all the problem players listed here I think that one is the one I despise the most, maybe because it's the one I've had the most recent bad experience with.
father was a dm for 2e and AD&D, he told me the timer massively helped with pace of the game and made sure people were paying attention during combat. of course this is from way older games back in the 90's so take it with a grain of salt.
Lol, I suffered with "Main Character Syndrome." All it took was a polite conversation with our DM and a few of our players and how they felt about it. We were all friends anyway lol. So I listened.
Hell, the Edgelord section actually reminded me of a friend's horrifying experience with a GM. In session 0 he asked everyone what their triggers were and what things they had issues surrounding. My friend (female) said rape was a huge trigger and generally compulsions and loss of control were issues as well. She had thought that this was just the GM being good and making sure to know what to avoid and what to keep other players in check on (amazing behavior, everyone should do this), that is until session 1 when her character was immediately dominated and raped savagely. Apparently, the GM had decided that they were suddenly a qualified psychotherapist who knew for a fact that facing trauma and triggers in a TTRPG setting was the way to cure them. He was not a psychotherapist. He had no degrees or education beyond high school. He was VERY wrong about his assumptions and I ended up spending a few hours calming my friend down so she did not perpetrate real violence on him in the fugue state he had sent her spiraling into. It took her weeks before she was ok again. If I had been there I probably would have chucked a rulebook at his head the instant he said she failed the save against Dominate Person. Some people don't deserve dice.
oh my god... that sounds disgusting. tbh it seems almost like the gm was doing it to be in control of the players - and using the psychotherapist thing as an excuse. im amazed that she didn't perpetrate real violence on him bc i know if hed had asked for my triggers and instead of not using them or warning me if they're involved in the game, he forced me to confront him, i would've acted out.
'The enemy' is interesting occasionally. Not about builds and combos, but about story beats and roleplay. My last character's patron turned out to be one of the BBEGs. They learned this, effectively stopped using any warlock features, got their hands on an amulet and ring to protect against mind reading and divination, and then made a subtle comment to the BBEG that she was still on his side and needed to play up the conflict. Here's the 'secret': Then she came up with a plan to 'defect' to the BBEG's side and ask what she needed to do to prove her loyalty. I wrote down and gave my DM what my plans were, but asked him not to open it. She set up a way to cast feign death on her best friend (in the party) when she uttered the phrase 'stupid, sniveling halfling'. With the expectation that the BBEG would say to kill them. Semi-fortunately, this plan never had to be used, and I told the DM he could read it as soon as it became irrelevant. To quote him: That's less so a read on the BBEG than it is a read on me, because that's exactly what I would have said in response to that question.'
This is a great summary of the majority of problematic player behaviour. I am guilty of at least two or three of these in my 25ish years of playing. Thanks to this and previous videos I have curtailed almost all of this behaviour at my end. That said, I regularly game with two people who exhibit multiple traits noted in the video on a regular basis. I will be bringing this to their attention as they are both longer term players than me, and also GM too.
I think some (and only some) subverters are variants of 'The Enemy' in regards to keeping secrets about their character. There's a trope in Heroic Fantasy called 'Refusing The Call' (even discussed in The Hero With a Thousand Faces). In Star Wars Luke was prepared to go home, choosing to do right by his uncle and aunt, rather than go with Obi Wan... Only to find they had been murdered by the Empire. This video has actually made me realise that there's actually a way around this; discuss it with the player first and provide an opportunity to Refuse The Call.
Oh god I’ve dealt with a non-adventurer, my group was playing city of mist and this friend of ours made a character who wasn’t fully aware of his mythic side so when we went on cool missions he just went to his job. I still don’t understand how someone would want to play something like that, gm was super confused too
Think part of the issue is coming up with what you think is an interesting role play idea and realizing that all your decisions just aren’t lining up with where the action is. This can totally be the player’s fault if the character is just impractical, but it can also just be bad luck. Like, there could be multiple decent ways to light a fire under the reluctant character’s butt, but the decisions and plot just don’t make any sparks. That said, a decent DM should probably have a talk after a session like that, not being accusatory but just finding out what’s up and maybe working out something story-wise. Just my opinion though.
Was kind of surprised to see that the Metagamer wasn't on there. I've definitely dealt with all of these problem players, and their version of those tropes were even worse that what was on this video. I found myself half finishing Will's sentences because the version in this video were Care Bear versions of what I've dealt with as both a GM and player.
Missed this video on release. But Man... your Ryoko's commercials are the best. i can't wait to get my hands on mine. I've already got someone trying out a Ronin ranger, and she's loving it.
Used to be a protagonist due to FOMO, but I've grown since then. I also do tend to take charge during combat as I'm used to strategizing and I know most people's movesets and usually have high perception or insight, but I never tell people how to play their characters.
I've played months in a D&D campaign with a guy in the party who "roled" a Oath of Vengence Paladin, but drag the party in bad situazions, and he demanded to be right. Moral of the story, we stopped the campaign because we chased him away, but he was in a relation ships with the DM... P.s. He was absolutely the enemy
i am very happy that most of my groups consist of shopping snails and we often have a full sessions just doing roleplay shopping and we are all having a good time. isnt it wonderful that these games fulfill our fantasy of having money so we can buy nice stuff?
Very awesome advice. I am DMing in a couple weeks for the first time in 30 years. I have to re-learn along with my level 1 players.. Thanks for helping it all come back.
Idk what type this is but one of my characters wanted to do a bunch of crazy things and was angry when he couldn’t. One time we were robbing a store (this wasn’t the problem cuz we all agreed that was ok) and once we were finished he tried to make a getaway (abandoning the rest of the party) by opening a portal using his “dm” magic (this person had only dm’ed once in their lifetime and it would still be annoying even if thy dm’ed more) and getaway. When my dm obviously said no they pitched a fit and left. This had taken the whole time we had to play dnd and we all had a sour taste in our mouth. Needless to say that dm didn’t come back.
I’ve played with two-minute timers before. It worked fine for me since I know the game well, whereas others simply lost their turns as a result. Players do usually get faster as they play more on timers, however. Though, at least for me, a one-minute timer is simply too short.
I think it's worth rememberting that you also have everyone else's turn to plan your own on. One common reason for snail behavior is to only start thinking about your actions when it's your turn. IMHO you should already know what you're going to do when your turn comes around. Sure, there are exceptions - sometimes the battlefield changes significantly just before your turn comes up - but those are just that. Exceptions.
As a DM for over 20 years, I always lay out the 3 rules of my tables in session 0. They're simple to follow and there are no margins for error: - Players are entitled to play their characters the way they want during their turns. - When I (The DM) make a ruling, it is because it either aligns with the rules or I have put thought into it being part of a Rule of Cool. If you disagree with my ruling, talk to me during the breaks or outside the game to discuss, not during the gameplay. - While I do allow in-party-conflict (IPC) if it would add story elements and feel appropriate to the circumstance, starting conflict out of spite of me or the player, or solely to be toxic will result in an instant removal from the table. -Example of appropriate IPC: Barbarian recklessly slaughters an NPC because he didn't have anymore information on the barbarian's tribe's whereabouts, Paladin becomes upset at the behavior and reprimands the barbarian for the act, Barbarian wants to fight Paladin for butting into business that doesn't concern him. -Example of IPC that will result in being kicked out: I make a ruling against the Rogue that they wouldn't be able to escape from a pit they fell into after failing their check to disarm a trap, Wizard wanted to see if there was another way to get him out of there before using spell slots, Rogue comes back later during his watch during the long rest and tries to assassinate the sleeping Wizard for not getting him out immediately. (and yes, both of those examples actually happened during my sessions) - Breaking the first 2 rules for the first time will result in a warning. A second time will result in a private discussion during the break or after the session. A 3rd time will be removal from the game. It's so easy you can teach it to a monkey, and it stops basically all of the nonsense. The way you handle appropriate IPC is to conduct it into a modular world. Make the world not revolve entirely around the players, but make the world react and change around their actions and decisions. Just as much as the players would take advantage of distracted enemies, the world will take advantage of distracted players.
As a DM, a problem that i get is the "I'll talk bad to all your NPC and nothing wrong will happen because i will start to make a scene if you kill my character". The ploblem happen sometimes with one of my player and i get that i should kill character if they act with no brain but i also want that people get fun at the table. I think that i'll try the jail for the next time. But great video as always ! ;)
I had a player a bit like that. They didn't think I would insta-kill them if they did something completely stupid. So they decided to mouth off to a wizard council. And they were right, I didn't instakill their character. I had them roll 10 saves they had almost no chance of passing and then instantly killed them.😊
That seems really aggressive to me. Killing a player should only ever be a last resort. I’d say, “make ten willpower or constitution saves. Each one you fail, they cast a curse on you.” That’s the punishment that keeps on giving.
You have to remind players that it's a living breathing world, and there are consequences to their actions, and sometimes that means having a wizard council kill them.
I had a friend group that played DnD online, one of the players wanted to try out dming, so we let them. The first campaign, ended in a few sessions because we were given a quest to help some people that kept getting robbed. We beat up the culprits, and they told us that they were working under the Thieves' guild. Naturally, our characters though the DM was telling us to go there, fight ensues with boss that we couldn't beat, DM doesn't understand why we did thata after trying to explain to them. Second campaign that they tried went a little better at first, but come session 2 or 3, our group had tied up some bandits to help a town, and were staking out their campsite for the rest to return at the end of the previous session. An hour and a half into the session, we are still having a back-and forth talk with the bandits that is going nowhere (they aren't fighting us, giving information, or anything), so one of the players just exclaims that it's been an hour and a half and we had done nothing yet, and that ended the campaign right there. I would like to say that it was a learning experience, but it really wasn't. Every time we tried to tell the DM where they went wrong, they either deflected to what they thought, or just said they didn't understand. It was one of the must frustrated that I had ever been playing DnD because I wanted it to work, but it just didn't
I really appreciate you making this video. As a new player I want to have the best experience possible for myself and other players. I think this video serves great as both what to look out for and a mirror as well.
Might have to disagree on "The Cheater". Doing it every once in a while wouldn't be too bad. I feel that doing it often would take shine away from players that are rolling fairly and would take away some roll-related drama from the game as a whole.
I would really appreciate the video about dealing with powerful combos. My players once unleashed the find familiar + dragon breath combo on me to wipe out a horde of zombies, and I didn't know what to do, thinking it would 'ruin' the encounter I shut it down. But I felt bad about it.
Let me first ask, what's the combo? I haven't heard this one My advice in general, if they hit you with something you didn't expect, let it play out, at the very least that one time. Come back to it later if you need. I've only had one proper campaign as a player and my favorite moment from it was taking out hundreds-- we didn't actually play through killing hundreds in turn order, but it was a sure thing so my GM just fast-forwarded-- of skeletons with a pretty simple combo. This might be less meaningful moment if they've played a lot already, but GM aside, that was the first campaign for us in the party. That moment was everything. This was also a good point to end the arc and we'd had time to build to it. I can understand why you would be reluctant to do so if you weren't. I've been on the GM side of things since that campaign and as long as it's in the rules and not something previously discussed, I tend to let them do it, but I also haven't had my players hit me with something like that in 5e. If anything, I get into trouble with things like City of Mist where the rules are lighter and less clear so it often comes to me making a call.
@@V-vision You can cast the Dragon's Breath spell on a willing creature, including a familiar, which can then spew fire breath (or any other chromatic element) as an action through the duration. Cast it on an Owl Familiar and you got yourself a little wyrmling who can fly around and vaporize some low CR chaff, like 30 zombies locked in a room with a single window.
@@DanRobotMan Ahh yeah. That's a pretty easy wipe. Ours was a Cleric with spirit guardians that had been made to fly vs skeletons equipped largely with melee weapons
@@DanRobotMani mean…. 30 zombies in a confined space can be dealt with with ease in a huge number of ways, the exploit in question is arguably not even an efficient option.
Anyone else ever play "Player Enemy: The Masquerade"??? So long as everyone is on board (and open to potential PK), V:tM is super fun when no one can talk to the DM (storyteller) while in the same room as any other players, everyone is plotting on each other... some of my best games I've ever played/ran
just throwing this out there: 10:53, I was never a fan of the timer. it works but it really puts alot of pressure on the player to not think. I run a round at a time by having players play 'action' cards all at once and then reveal them on their turn. it simulates real combat as actions are taken simultaneously rather than consecutively meaning you cant change your mind if another player does x. Makes combat rounds quicker (though total combat stays roughly the same), minimizes back seating, and forces the party to discuss tactics together before taking anyone's turn.
Thank you for making this video, I’m a new player, and this made me more confident about how I played my first one-shot, and reminds me to continue being mindful of my behavior in the future 👍
Actually a really insightful video! I've played DnD for a long time, DMed for a few, and introduced many to the wonderful game we all enjoy. Didn't realize until now that I do a lot of backseat gaming trying to help new players and new dms. It's a game, lets all have fun!
I started the Timer method when I had some players that were taking to long on their turns. For the most part I don't really need to use it, but when I see a player being to indecisive or stalling to much I start counting down to encourage them to come up with something quickly.
I tend to be the protagonist when I’m playing as a PC kinda on accident because I tend to play with newer/ less experienced players but I always check in with everyone else after the session to make sure I’m not upsetting them.
3:58 When you said some of the best moments happen because of bad rolls, it reminded me of Critical Role (spoilers for Campaign 2 below)-- Talliesin rolled horribly for Molly during a big boss fight and it ended up with Molly being killed. He got a really badass sendoff (spitting in the face of the bbeg before he died), a really touching burial, and it set the stage for the coolest Ultimate BBEG with Lucien and the Neo Somnovem. It was so sad and sucked when Molly died, but that bad dice roll ended making Campaign 2, in my opinion, the best.
Our DM sometimes uses a 1 or 2 minute timer in the fight if he deems it as a rapid fight where our characters wouldn’t have the time to think about what they can do
On the Edgelord element, my tables have come up with an initial Pre Session 0 survey that helps identify potential triggers and subjects judged to be beyond the comfort level of a player. Each is submitted to the GM directly and the details are not shared but the GM can then use Session 0 to set the expectations of the table for the game in terms of allowed and banned content. I've found it quite useful for some of the edgier players to know what subjects should be left out or possibly just heavily obscured so as to avoid trigger situations that can make other players uncomfortable.
Back around 1980-1982, I had a DM who had the Enemy thing going, and we had a player who was bordering on an Extradimensional Jerk. In the same group. That said, I haven't had a really problem player or GM issue since then. I've had DMs who just weren't good at it, and players who didn't seem to get the idea, but they did get better over time.
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Alright, here's the deal:
I'm the main character.
Everyone else is NPCs (that I can control).
The DM is to be destroyed, at any cost (along with any player that challenges my ability to control their characters).
All of my rolls are absolute (even those made with loaded dice).
I can take as long as I want with my turns (and they are _all_ my turns).
I _will_ be spending weeks, if not months, in town.
I _will_ be murdering all of the townspeople, once I'm done with that town.
I _will_ be as edgy as possible, while murdering all of the townspeople.
I _will_ put pineapple on _every_ pizza I order.
I _will_ be in your next D&D session, and you won't know it's me, until it's too late.
I'm the Andrew Tate of D&D, and I'm already in your walls, *_Jeffrey Johannes Stevenson III._*
Hey Will, hope all is well.
My buddy and I met and took a picture with you on the plane while we were on the tarmac at Charlotte Airport.
Did you end up making it to your flight on time?
@@recklessone9842 Because that's how much of an Alpha Sigma Gamma Delta Epsilon Zeta Eta Theta Iota Kappa Lambda Mu Nu Xi Omicron Pi Rho Tau Upsilon Phi Chi Psi Omega Chad I am.
And your D&D campaign is next.
So lucking forward to this.
You missed secret #8: The Bleeder, in other words (the one who experiences character bleed). The player who takes things personally and will get actually agitated in response to something negative to their character).
Stop talking about me. Though, seriously, I have a few people I've done multiple campaigns with and it seems like my characters get the most crap regardless of the personalities I give them.
This right here! Definitely been guilty of this one a few times because I easily get sucked into what's going on in the game. Overall it's not a bad thing, but it can definitely become problematic in certain circumstances, and especially if it happens a lot... Open communication with my DM about it has helped. Another thing that helps is stepping back (physically or mentally/emotionally) and reminding myself that D&D is a game - sometimes what happens is just how the dice roll.
Yeah, I'm struggling with this right now. Two players just got our party into a guilt by association situation by their totally bumbling attempt to get into the criminal underground, and in the process gave away some of my character's secrets that they'd known about for one day. Because I have no interest playing a character on the run, and see no reason my character would trust them again after this, I'm as pissed in the real world as my character will be in game. (The law just picked up my character and the rest of the party as known associates, she doesn't actually know yet what happened.) I am calmer after sitting with it a couple of days, but I don't see a way forward that will be the kind of game I can enjoy. Sigh.
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong/toxic with that.
It depends on context; Like if you roll a Natural 1 in a combat situation and the DM goes overboard saying 'Oh your Sword immediately shatters and shards of it cut you'. THAT IS EXCESSIVE AND UNFAIRLY CRUEL!!! Another situation is if the DM plays with "Perma-Death" that is F**king Bulls**t & Evil! There are many other examples of excess and cruelty but those are 2 of them!
Like with that "Natural 1 scenario": If instead the DM says, 'You miss the enemy and slightly strain your wrist'. That is reasonable enough if they still want some "Thematic Consequence" for a Natural 1.
Like Orion Acaba?
Just started the video and I’m already prepared for one of them to literally be me
Fingers crossed !
Just started the video and I’m already prepared for all of them to literally be me
Same
I know I'm at least two of these😂
I'm waiting for him to mention rules lawyers
Edit: according to the chapters it's not in there so I see this as an absolute win
Great point about the "Extra dimensional jerk". 90% of all dnd horror stories "bad guys" are not bad players, they're just not decent human beings. Being somewhat mature and open to discussion avoid almost all problems in dnd.
I've recently had this experience from a player I've had in my games on/off for the last 30 years. My last campaign we brought in a new voice and he just went south on them stating "Not being obligated to get along with everyone." Which is fair, but he was getting downright rude at the table. Thankfully he's opted out of our next and future campaign.
Yeah I've only had to deal with one in my time as a gm talked to him multiple times and was about to ask him to just not come to the next session when his character died safe to say none of the players wanted to revive him and I never got with him to roll up a new character I tried talking to him many times and he just actively didn't care about other players fun and was getting to the point of ruining my time as the gm
50% of "bad guys" are probably autistic and the authors can't handle someone who needs communication more direct than rolling your eyes in disapproval.
A lot of it is just what group you're in. For ex the drunkenness/drugs thing. We have a rule where when your character does a drug/drinks, you must do the irl equivalent. It's a blast! We love it. Enhances the experience a ton and it's one of our favorite homebrew ideas we've had. Clearly some would not like that based on it's inclusion in the video. Not wanting to do them would be one thing, and occasionally we'll refuse when we're plenty fucked up, and that's fine. But not wanting OTHERS to get fucked up would make you the extra dimensional jerk in our game.
Or, for many I'm sure that wanting the game to be squeaky clean w no sex or murder would make you the jerk when these are themes everyone else wants to explore. A lot of these are less about being a jerk, and more about being in the wrong group, either irl or in game.
Yeah, "That Guy" is never a good experience. Luckily, I've never had to tolerate one for long.
I've said it for the past 15 years. The most powerful tool the DM has, is the ability to say "No."
As a GM, one thing I've seen bogging down combat the most is people not remembering the turn order. I made a simple system. I folded index cards in half for each character and monster, and I put them over the top of my GM screen, with the names on both sides. I put them in initiative order and shift it one entity as their turn passes. This makes sure everyone can see exactly how close they are to acting, who's before them, who's after them, etc. It seems to help.
That seems like a really cool idea
that is a genius idea!
@@feetpicburglar Feel free to steal it. I actively encourage it, in fact!
@@colinsmith1495 You are a gentleman and a scholar. It's pretty standard in videogame turn-based RPGs... and I never ever thought of it for an actual TTRPG campaign.
Seems like a cool idea. I might try that next time. Thanks!
Theres also actually a reverse anti-adventurer, a player who bee-lines the main story so hard that no other interesting side events can occur. We had a moment in our game where we came across a lady offering us a place to sleep in exchange for a story, and the problem player told everyone no and kept going. We suffered a point of exhaustion because of it, which he got to ignore because he had a coffee-esque item
That's a good point!
There's also another kind of anti-adventurer, which is the "what's my motivation?" roleplayer. That's me, when I'm not actively guarding against it.
"We were supposed to find the kid in the cave. Here's the cave. Here's the kid. We're done. Why would we explore the rest of cave? What's in the cave? It's probably dangerous. And we're not being paid to go spelunking, we're being paid to save the kid. This kid. Right here. Mission accomplished. So let's go get our gold and hit the bar."
Well, there *is always* a reason to explore the cave. Maybe I missed the clues, or maybe the GM didn't foreshadow it well enough, but either way, the rest of the cave probably wouldn't be there if we weren't supposed to explore it. It's probably very important for the plot. So just because my character would be like "Peace, bro", twin-spell invisibility on me and the kid, and sneak our way back to town for the reward, I have to take a deep breath and just roll with it. Because I've legitimately upset a couple of GMs in the past who had some big thing they needed us to find/learn for the overall plot that I just convinced everyone to walk away from before we even got there.
Nowadays, I'm more likely to say "Let's take the kid home, get our gold, grab some supplies, take a long rest, and explore the rest of the cave tomorrow morning when we're fresh. Why? Fucked if I know. It just feels like something we need to do. Just in case."
Ngl I'd think that was a TK in disguise so I'd **advise** my team to keep going too.
@@theunluckybard7517This is why the GM should put major plot points between the players and the objective, because saying “I'm not getting paid to explore a cave, I'm being paid to rescue a kid” is entirely valid. Or have the kid point you further into the cave with another plot point, like the person who kidnapped them and will most likely capture another person or a group of goblins planning to raid the town. Honestly sounds like an inexperienced GM (not that I have much room to talk, myself)
@@Damini368 It can be inexperience, but sometimes it's just a GM brain fart. I've been DMing since ad&d2e, but I still made that mistake myself once in a potentially catastrophic way.
The very first adventure for a long-running campaign had the PCs being hired to "go find out why people seem to be disappearing in this previously-safe section of the woods." So they go out there, they poke around, and they discover an enormous ancient ruined city has just appeared from nowhere in the middle of this forest.
Obviously, I'm expecting them to enter the ruin. One PC had bought a spyglass, so I let them see the sparkles of gold and the faint magical auras of treasure in the ruin when they looked through it.
That PC put away his spyglass and said "Ok, we've found out why people are disappearing. They're going into that weird new ruin to look for loot. Let's go back and report our findings. Mission accomplished."
The whole rest of the campaign hinged on them going into that ruin. I was trying to figure out how to re-write the adventure so the rest of the game could go on *without* them having seen the inside of the ruin, and I guess it was showing on my face, because the player looked at me, sighed, and said "All right, gang, let's go explore this ruin..."
Any tips on how to deal with them cuz I was cussed out from the one i had
So much of this can be eliminated via a "Session 0".
When I was informed of this concept after about 15 years of running games, I realized it was the best thing that could have happened to RPGs!
I feel really stupid asking this but what is Session 0?
@@akuokami1677 Session Zero is basically a pre-campaign meeting. All the players and the GM get together to set out the ground rules and expectations for the game. The exact details will vary, but in my games, I aim to get everyone on the same page regarding the tone of the game, any subjects we want to avoid or tread lightly around, and what each player wants out of the game.
Depending on the game, it might involve character creation, or a chance to work out a group backstory, or give players who have never met a chance to get to know each other. In my experience, 99% of RPG problems can be avoided or mitigated with open communication, so this is a perfect place to open that dialogue.
I will also add it doesn't have to be "pre-game." Could be done at any point if issue arise to help get down to the root of the issue or just to make sure everyone is still enjoying the game.
Session 0 and communication does help a lot-but occasionally there are people who show their true self much later.
@@starbird3939It's never too late for a session 0 conversation, even if it's a conversation that happens before the normal session starts
Making your intentions known in a session 0 is so important. What you want in game. Get a feel of the party. Ask questions. Red flags? Try and resolve before you play. Or just don’t play with them”
Agree . Session zero will establish the parameters of ' the sandbox ' that're age appropriate to the Players..
From PG - 13 to NC-17..
The issue I've come across is that a lot is people lie as easily as they breathe and then get mad the game is EXACTLY AS ADVERTISED.
"What, why do you keep asking me if I want to RP?"
-Person who joined the RP-heavy campaign on roll20 and was told in session 0 it was going to be heavy on RP and what that meant exactly before they agreed each time.
you're not going anywhere.
I love the idea of a session zero. Next time I DM (our group takes turns) I think I'll do mini sessions via text. My team is mostly people who are afraid to rock the boat so doing it that way might help them open up moreb
Chaotic/Stupid is also common enough to be worth mentioning, where the player is constantly doing stupid or completely random things on purpose at inopportune times trying to derail things, and then tries to hide behind "it's what my character would do".
A game full of chaotic stupid can be fun though. Short, but fun.
that sounds like my character but i try and only do it when it would either have very low stakes or if i can bring the party back from it easily
@@EZRAHUUUGEEE There's nothing wrong with being a wildcard, it's about doing so in a way that doesn't ruin the game for everybody.
Got a dood in my game where he is in a cell and a shadow syndicate lead has a gun pointed at him and it's like watching a train wreck because he keeps saying things that would get him killed and the dm is trying to keep him alive but he just keeps choosing bad dialog options lol
I was pissed last time I started a campaign; told my players in session 0 that it was a dark theme, moody and serious most of the time with just a little humor here and there to contrast that. Had a player make a ranger who's profession was tracker, and named it "Werdafugami" as in.. where the F am I. I knew as soon as I saw that, he was completely ignoring my theme and would not be a fit. I tried talking to him, but he was flippant irl. (looking back I think it may have had something to do with me being a female GM) He only lasted about 3 weeks before all the other players came to me and expressed a desire to stop playing with him. We moved the game to another location and didn't tell him.
I accidentally fell into the archtype of 'Enemy' because my 1st dm was a 'minimalist' & he likes to challenge us to surprise him, even going as far as rewarding the player for new ideas! Nowadays I realize the importance of talking to the dm, but it was hella fun to bring in stuff that can really surprise the table! Rest in peace Gray
Oh
One of the players was a secret final boss
I like to not be surprised where a move comes from but how it's used. One of my favorite moments yet was in a city of mist campaign where the players were trapped in a deeper layer of dreaming and they had no idea precisely what's going on, they thought only people interacting with them spawned so it must have been a perception filter so they decided to hold a loud-ass illegal rock concert doing which the rocker stopped holding back and used his power (which is basically cartoon hammerspace) to pull out a blimp for the show and rocked hardcore. This allowed the walls between the two dream stages to thin out enough that an ally of theirs could literally dive in there through the walls to extract them.
I had planned a more prolonged introspection arc where they'd have reoccuring nightmares whenever they fell asleep, about their powers going out of control because of their own personal flaws. But their idea made so much sense as a breakthrough climax that it simply HAD to work. It didn't come cheap either, the player overtaxed his hammerspace ability with that and it broke.
While it can be hard to do, give problematic players the benefit of the doubt. Approach them assuming they have good intentions and just don't realize what's going on. It's the best way to make sure everyone can continue to have fun together.
Extremely important advice, when it becomes a clear pattern of behaviour then yeah definitely raise it, but we all have bad days so the benefit of the doubt is extremely important to keeping your group together.
I agree. Communication is so important in any social interaction. A lot of times just talking it out can help both sides understand each other and reach a good conclusion
This. Don’t know how many problem stories I’ve heard that boil down to a communication issue.
im the backseat gamer or whatever he said, its not that I know alot about the game I just have like an IRL +10 to insight checks, like why tf would a guard want to meet us in a cave that has no miners in it and is probably abandoned? why is he alone? where is his spear when his stat block now shows only a sword?
I have a hard time RPing a dumber character, im stuck as the wizard or cleric now
I agree, a lot of player horror stories I see usually mention that the problem player is a newbie. Which makes me think the person telling the story just isn’t very patient with first time players. And that can turn you into the problem GM in that person’s horror story
The enemy isn’t bad if you all agree at Session 0. My college campaign was a power-gaming meat grinder hellscape where the GM’s goal was to kill us and it was our job to thwart their every scheme. It was great.
Communication is key. Id be pissed to show up to that with no heads up but would have a blast if I knew what i was getting into
Believe me, your GM went easy on you. As a GM, I would win just about 100% of the time if killing the characters really was my goal 🤷♂️
@@firvantavan2793That depends entirely on the players and how fair you want to make the encounters. Throwing a pit fiend against a level 5 party or your players not being to experienced to play in such an optimal setting is indeed an easy job. But having a group of maximized players using broken combo's in a fight against a even enemy is alot harder.
@@Dragonmacher I would have killed any level 5 party with a reasonable encounter, no doubt about it. All DMs know how they throw strategy out the window for the players to stand a chance. You just don't do that, and then the characters die. 🤷♂️
@firvantavan2793 as a DM, I disagree with this. Of course, it's true in the sense that we can drop 100 ancient gold dragons on them. But in your world is 100 ancient gold dragons showing up out of nowhere, a thing what would likely happen in that moment? Of course not.
If we don't hit the "bend or break reality button" and you're playing a reasonable balanced encounter skilled players can really shut down what you're trying to do.
I once had two "snails" in the same party of 6 PCs. Not only did they each take a very long time, as others were taking a turn they would take talk about what they should have done. I started using an egg timer to limit time, and after a few sessions they both saw the light and were prepared to act promptly.
Our Snail always played wizards who all had the goal of acquiring every spell in the game. So not only was he a snail every combat, but also every long rest.
Damn, that Is a very good way to make someone make a decision quickly
I contend that, other than the New Player, all the Snails are Inattentive Snails in addition to whatever other kind of Snail they are. Like, seriously, you have *nothing else to do* while all the other players are taking their turns. At my table, a full round is at least 20 minutes, if everyone's queued up and ready to go. What else do you have to do BUT figure out your options for your next move??? Make a plan, and make an alternative plan in case the battlefield changes in such a way as to make your first plan not great anymore. You've got all the time in the fucking world to figure it out! Unless you're spending that time on your phone....
@@theunluckybard7517 no phones at the table has been our rule since cell phones became popular.
@@theunluckybard7517 I was the new player in the group I play with. I've always tried to be sure I'm not the one slowing things down by planning out a couple different actions I could take once my turn comes. In most cases my turn usually only takes under a minute total and usually only goes over that when things have changed drastically.
Ironically, I did experience that pineapple pizza thing in a way. We had a player who, despite being told multiple times that I was allergic to mushrooms, add them to our pizza orders whenever they were left in charge, and then offer me a slice full well knowing I couldn't have any. It took me basically dropping the ultimatum "if I can't eat, I won't pay" before the rest of the table even noticed this. Fortunately, they backed me.
Dudes just a dick
Its as if they were tryna kill ya
The person in question wasn't smart enough to want that. He just thought denying me pizza I helped pay for was funny.
@@benpepin7872 If someone did that because it was "funny" to them, they'd be straight up kicked out of my group. You don't mess with a person's money or health, and they messed with both.
@@mdp720I'm fairly certain there are groups where they would get brutalised.
"Possibly the most dangerous type of snail, is the shopping snail"
*Commence Flashbacks*
Is this a reference to who I think it is?
@@TheFrozenFlame05 If you mean Tiberius, I think so
@@chaosarcanum yes, I did
@@TheFrozenFlame05 yeah that was what I took it as too. I immediately flashed back to it
My group had a protagonist problem, only we didn't know just how bad it was. She was in a relationship with the main DM and would constantly complain in private about how she didn't do anything during that session despite taking over what was obviously intended for another player. It killed his desire to play those campaigns and so many fun stories have been lost. Thankfully he broke up with her so hopefully we might get to visit a few revamped versions.
We also had a problem with a protagonist. Besides the fact that he could not count his own bonuses and therefore his smite was always too high to the point that it was me who checked his results because the DM had something else to do than watch theroll of his players, his characters were problematic. Not in the wrong sense, just he created unstable characters with a peculiarity that gave the GM a huge advantage because he want to be more in the story. The problem is that we were in a dark fantasy version of DnD, Midnight and the MJ was crushing us enough without our own team shooting us in the foot. When the GM puts us in a situation where the death of a character is very difficult to avoid, he does not need help... Tendencies to try to be a protagonist culminated until he accidentally set our boat on fire and stabbed a pregnant character. The husband of the character and the barbarian took it badly so they have PK him. Now he’s calmed down a bit but his next character is just as problematic:(
This was a shockingly normal thing back in the day. To the point where many of us grognards from previous editions still flinch whenever a DM mentions bringing in their girlfriend. The combination of blatant favoritism, arguments, and sometimes jealousy has tanked many a campaign.
"then the party wakes up, realizing it was all a bad dream created by a powerful portal being closed improperly"
I used to play with my ex bf who was the DM and I would RELIGIOUSLY lock myself in the bedroom during sessions to not hear anything or see his screen. HE was the one wanting to tell me what he was preparing because he was very excited to play, it was hard to say no. I remember complaining to him as a new player but quickly understood it wasn't personal if something wrong happened to my character.
We broke up two years ago and still play together to this day.
Bad habits can often be transformed into skills that benefit everyone. I can talk too much, but I'm also a fabulous note taker, so I've become lore keeper and constantly scribbling helps me balance conversation better. Player#2 can be a backseat gamer, so we made them our rules lawyer, but they're only allowed to rule when asked. Player#3 tends to be quiet and might unconsciously check out during conflict, but that means they had extra space to keep track of initiative/concentration/conditions.
This is awesome, I'm glad your party found positive ways to use everyone's unique playstyle
Even without a need for busywork to maintain interest... if the players offer to help me with the number crunching and paperwork, and I can do this without giving up (much) information they shouldn't have, then you bet your ass I'm going to accept the help. That's why I've adopted Matt Colville's method of tracking monster HP: _you don't._ You track the damage done instead, which is a number the players have access to. That means it can be shown in the open, which in turn means the players can do this calculation. Then all I have to do is say "bloodied", "wobbly", and "down" at the appropriate times (because I know the monster HP), and this gives me spare brain cycles to think of entertaining ways to do that. When we get to regenerating creatures, I subtract the regen from the running damage total until we get close to the 0 HP range at which point I switch over to tracking their HP similar to everyone else's. At that point the party already knows what they're up against so at most, I'm clarifying what "wobbly" means in numerical terms (single digit HP or under 10%, whichever is greater -- low-HP monsters just skip this condition).
Basically this means I can farm out initiative tracking and combat tracking entirely, if a player wants to take it over. Enemy spell slots work similarly to HP, I just track them backward, so instead of seeing 4332 and decrementing from those, they effectively start with an unknown number of zeros and count UP. I allow players to query either the school of magic OR the spell slot level of a spell being cast, and they almost always pick the spell slot level, so again I'm not revealing anything by publicly marking that an enemy has used a 4th level spell slot. It still doesn't tell the players how many are left, or what the maximum spell level of the enemy is.
The more I can do "in front of the screen", the more I can delegate it to the players without giving out massive spoilers. This makes life _so_ much easier, and cuts down on critical errors. We still screw up, but if three people were involved and nobody noticed at the time, it probably wasn't that critical. Even if it is, they can no longer blame it all on me.🤣
Very impressive! Requires high level of maturity and cleverness to do that. I wish I was part of your dnd group! ❤
'fabulous note taker' Yeah, you surely are a talker :p
Great wisdom to share to those in similar situations.
I have to say that a yellow hat is a very nice accessory and you don't have to take it o-- MY EYES, IT'S BLINDING!!
Wear shades
Flashback of that scene in the spongebob movie
When I played my first TTRPG, I kinda _had_ to be the anti-adventurer, because it was a setting my brother had made up, and he had told me the whole plot 2-3 years prior, so I just kinda had to stay on he sidelines so my other brother could enjoy the adventure properly.
When our GM later asked me why I was so passive, and I explained that I remembered the whole plot, he was actually happy that I didn't spoil anything, and admitted he forgot he told me about this adventure.
At least I got to help out in combat, and decapitate a guy high on shrooms with an arrow, so that's nice.
4:02 That's one of the best things of DnD. I remember a great moment for a character of mine that was quite serious thanks to a bad roll on insight, where he ended up helping a goblin that had stolen from him to avenge their cat pal from the "purple worm" that had bursted their head. Long story short, that "purple worm" was in fact an intellect devourer that had attacked his friend. With my kobold sorcerer supporting the goblin (who was using my character's skillet and a torch to make a mace, and a strainer and a pot for the armor) to take this beast. He was like don quixote with the windmills, but due to some really funny rolls, the goblin, who would've probably died if the rolls hadn't been so good, kept dodging and critting with his "legendary weapon", so my character played a support role for this delusional warrior, so the goblin could deal the finishing blow, using bigby's hand to push them upwards for the finishing blow and Rime's binding ice so the enemy didn't move. When my kobold found his way back to the rest of the group, dragging the corpse of the intellect devourer, with the blood of the beast over his scales and a tired but happy face, and talked about this amazing warrior who defeated the beast to avenge his fallen partner, and after that fell unconscious due to being exhausted, since he had been lost on the desert for the whole night. It was a story that I think we will remember for quite a long time. Sometimes rolling badly allows for amazing roleplay moments (I'll admit, I wanted my character to roll poorly on that one, so when I rolled a 3, I was static.)
The reason Toxic Players seem so numerous is because they are always looking for a new game, having gotten thrown out of or ruining their last game. Good Players are playing in Good Games 😊
Ooh good point. No other D&D group in my area that plays at the same time as mine will be playing D&D with me or any of the lovely people I play with, because we’re busy enjoying each other’s company. A problematic player, however, doesn’t have a prior commitment bc they trashed the last one
That's not necessarily fair, Good Players can get out of bad games, or be perfectly good players that just didn't fit at a certain table.
wtf, there are plenty of reasons to look for a new game. And you should try talking to players before assuming anything
Or maybe it's just the same reason why other bad things seem numerous: they get talked about a lot. Rarely you see videos or posts talking about good players, but there are whole forums to talk about the bad ones.
Very true. I've let go of some good players because they didn't fit the kind of game I was running and the dynamic I want at our table. My time and energy is limited so I make clear choices to prevent myself from having to handle a group instead of participating in fun, relaxed sessions. @@AlyssMa7rin
The funny thing is that if you'd shown clips from extremely early episodes of a certain popular streaming play group, you'd have had the perfect example of both the protagonist and the snail in one person.
that one early critical role guy man dude?
Orion also had MAJOR enemy issues with Matt - could not stand his character being limited in any way by the DM.
And the cheat, don't forget that.
Man, it's been 8 years. I think we can start giving that guy a break and move on.
@@BodharasI mean, in this case they're just pointing out an example. It just so happens said person exhibited basically all of these toxic traits at the same table.
The most important thing is talk to the players. Most behaviors can be adjusted by pointing out the issues and any solutions. I had this one player in my game where he was overpowered and basically taking out the enemies in a single hit. I had issues trying to balance because I was a new GM. I talked with him and the issue was fixed, he was a GM so understood how to help me. He ended up setting up other characters and had a great time.
I don't allow 'lone-wolf' characters in any of my games. Had this one player that was a combination of Protagonist, Backseat Gamer, Subverter, Edgelord, and Extra Dimensional Jerk and he was the worst person to deal with, the scariest thing was he was a GM and a really toxic one. I talked with this player 4 separate times and it kept being a problem. Another problem is that he kept playing the same character a 'lone-wolf' that didn't like the work with other and kept high-jacking the game at every single opportunity. It was funny one game that player did that and the GM said 'ok the character wanders off make a new character. this time make one that actually wants to work with people'. The player ended up dropping that game.
There are ways to play an Anti-Adventurer well, it just relies a bit on communication with the DM. One of my characters was just a travelling salesman who has always wanted to travel to the feyrealm because thats where their family comes from and they dont remember anything about their family. My DM made it so that their cart was stolen and while getting it back (with a few sessions in between) the party found out that the people who had stolen my characters cart had also stolen a tablet we were trying to get from another person, and they went into the feywild. Point being, as long as you cooperate with the party and DM, you can still manage to make a character like this work out well
6:19 "looking up crazy combos online to surprise the GM"... Funny coming from someone who was sharing VERY creative gamebreakers with us
I think the snail is probably the most common type. I've encountered every subtype of snail multiple times.
Our teams snail is new, but also distracted. She spends the time playing on her phone, zoning out, or trying to have conversations during the game. I think she is just there to hang with us, which is fine, just wish she wouldn't be surprised everytime it's her turn in combat and has to fumble through her apps to make a decision.
@@syrupchugger421 that sounds a bit like me during our last session, granted i have adhd. but give her a bit of time, as a new player, i feel overwhelmed a lot during playtime cause there are a lot of things to keep track of so i tend to zone out or fumble with the maths and what spells do
@@erensrightnut I'm not worried about her behavior. I'm sure she doesn't care much for the game but just enjoys hanging out with us and that's fine by me
I totally forgot there was a D&D episode of Voltron. Man that was a good show. But onto the actual video, this is extremely helpful not only for spotting "problem players" but avoiding becoming that problem player yourself
Backseat gamer, here! This video genuinely helped me realize that this is my problematic behavior. 'Course, I'm going to apologize to the people I've done it to in my current campaign but it really got me thinking about the reasons why it happens. The campaign I'm currently in is really tough combatively, something we all knew when we signed up. A few of the players, though, are fairly new and so making mistakes in combat gets me really worried about character death - both for them and for myself. Losing your character which you care about because of someone else's fuckup is not fun. Thinking about this, I'll probably bring it up to the DM and communicate that concern to see if we can make combat a little more forgiving! Thank you for taking an empathetic approach.
You can also talk to the newer players outside of game time, maybe give them a few pointers. I've known players who didn't necessarily understand what their characters could do, but with a little discussion that could be greatly improved.
It's something that I tend towards, and I need to actively stop myself sometimes. A degree of helping other players can be beneficial, but I think you should err firmly on the side of letting them make their own imperfect decisions
this drives me nuts too, when the other people at the table play suboptimal and i'm supposed to just keep my mouth shut and go along with it, because apparently giving tactical advice like "why don't we focus attack 1 at a time instead of everyone soloing their own foe" or "do you all think you could hang back for a second , so i can cast a web spell and not fricking catch you in it?" is "backseat gaming".
(the aeo thing was just the one time i tried to play a wizard and nobody would listen to me when i wanted to cast an aoe spell without hitting them in friendly fire and i realize i could have just been an evocation wizard to get the spell shaping ability so they don't get hit by it, but i wanted to be a conjurer instead)
like in anither different campaign, i had to sit silently and endure the utter frustration sitting there trying to fight 3 undead gorillas, while 2 party members are down and i'm a melee class and the other wizard is just sitting there casting blade ward every turn for 3 turns in a row(true story) , not helping and i'm asking don't you have any other spells? and everyone is staring at me like i'm the a-hole
@@Femaiden Funny, nobody at our table has a problem with other folks making suggestions or asking them to hang back for a certain spell, etc. That's called strategy.
@@badnewsBH yeah, well this was in Adventure League, often sotting at tables with people i only met for the first time and we go in and nobody has any sort of plan of action, they all just go in their own direction and solo the monster in front of them and any time i tried to offer any advice or anything, i always get snapped at for "metagaming" or "don't tell me how to play my character". . like one guy at one tabke was just casting spells every turn with way more spell points than he could possibly have and often was casting spells from other classes that he shouldn't even have had access to and i had to keep my mouth shut about it. .the DM didn't even catch on until 2 hours later. .
and then there was the other guy i talked about who did nothing but cast blade ward every turn while my character was getting beaten to a pulp. . i think the DM pulled punches there though, because we somehow made it through that encounter just barely.
I think it was very important and perfectly worded when talking about how some characters can play this type of story that’s truly just a fantasy to them back to somebody at the table may actually ring too close to home and reality, ruining the escapism, and bringing up traumatic events etc. people tend to do this quite often I’m multiple different situations
Thank you very much for this video. We are in the testing phase of my game system and one of my players is very troublesome after each session making rude remarks about other people taking too long and overall complaining about everything from start to finish in the session. The other players thankfully hop in to defend the validity of changes and shut down any rude comments. I also have addressed that player with respect and politeness, but I don't want them to feel like I'm against them, and this was very helpful as they match 2 different problem player types. Thank you again. Love your content.
The number of these that relate to players being afraid of how failing will affect their fun (for lack of a better word) suggests that GMs making sure that bad rolls and missteps are still entertaining experiences (and sometimes create opportunities, not always punishments) is generally good practice.
I did fall into the second trap recently, though id argue fairly minor, but our sorcerer had taken True Strike as a cantrip. I couldnt help but suggest they switch away from that awful spell as soon as possible.
But it's like the best spell in the gaaaaaaaaaaaaaame! It can give me advaaaaaaaantaaaaaaaaaage! :D
Only saying that, because you just know that _some_ idiot's gonna come along and do it, so might as well be the one who's kidding. XD
Let him use true strike ^^.
The dm will find a way to buff that cantrip.
My idea would be: till your next turn every player has advantage against that creature and maybe even change to a bonus action.
@@okgut2033that amount of advantage is too powerful for a cantrip. Thats basically fearie fire but one target.
I found a use for it only against high mobility enemies; i.e. you’re not going to get two consecutive turns to hit them, but again niche case.
Cant you like quicken Chromatic Orb, cast True Strike as action cantrip and then use Chromatic Orb with ADV? Seems legit to me, as sorcerer.
I worry sometimes that I am falling into the “backseat” habit. This is because I play quite a few games where I’m the experienced one and am in a mentor role now. So I worry if I’m overstepping when I bring up a rule or remind others about features, traits, magic items, and spells they have. Part of this is the I’m the note taker. Other part is the I have photographic memory and between that and my enthusiastic research of the phb and other important source books when I first started the hobby, I have pretty much most if not every single rule, memorized. Now, that doesn’t mean I will not abide by a ruling a dm makes or that I hold against a player a less than wise or inefficient decision, I don’t, I’ll merely ask them to clarify and accommodate. That doesn’t mean my intentions are perceived that way but I am well intentioned. However, I do worry, since at some of my tables, I feel the players and/or dm might be becoming over reliant on my input and I don’t want this to breed resentment done the line, even if the table finds it alright now. So I try to keep an eye on my habits and when I pitch in.
Backseating is 50x better than a protagonist
@@RocKaFella57 lol oh heck no I could never do that. It would go against every single one of my caretaking instincts. Being the center of attention is so not my thing.
Understand that Back-Seat Gaming can be appreciated by some who don't keep track of stuff too much. So you would be far less toxic than some on the list. You sound a lot more intelligent than me, but I have also fell into a similar role because I'm a veteran player and I'm patient with new players as I explain the rules. My advice is, try to remember to to stay humble and let some make mistakes.
That photographic memory must make it a bit hard not to interject sometimes though. I once played an intentionally neurotic strategist who was trying to work on trusting other people to sort of work on it, 😂.
Former teacher here so I apologize if this sounds lectury.
Probably the most fair "solution" would be to limit the advice you offer to explaining mechanics that others appear to be unclear on and don't offer suggestions unless specifically asked.
One thing you can do is ask them if they're asking the question or their character is. This will help them realize there's a difference and give you a bit of direction on how to respond. If they're asking in character then you should absolutely limit your response to what your character would know and let those chips fall where they may...let the wackiness ensue!
If, instead, they're asking as the player, a good technique is to repeat their question back to them. This serves to both confirm you heard them correctly and often times is enough of a prompt to get the asker to give the potential answer a second thought themselves...kind of a jumpstart for their thought process.
But the absolute best way you can help players learn is to teach by example. They'll pick up on how you play and try to mimic you to some degree, either consciously or subconsciously. So give them a good example: make good choices; make bad choices; have fun with those choices regardless; ask he DM the occasional question (especially if you think it's a question one of the other players is too nervous to ask...and if you absolutely are certain you know the answer, phrase it as "asking for clarification on their interpretation"); ask the other players questions yourself ("What do you think we should do here?") and don't be afraid to run w/whatever they suggest.
And finally, keep it firmly in your mind that for as much as you know, you don't know everything about the game. You'll learn as much from those new players as they'll learn from you.
I do agree with these previous advices. I usually tend to go with: if it's not my turn I shouldn't have anything to say aside reacting to what's happening (like saying "nice shot" or laughing to a funny situation, etc..)
Just like in every game, people can learn to play, no need to hold their hand every step of the way, unless they want it.
I have seen a game where two people were bashing a third one with advices and criticism on how he handled the situation. I tried to tell them he was doing Ok (he wasn't but that was creating a funny situation). After a few minutes of that, the player just left. It took the DM about 3 or 4 sessions to repair the damages done and another player left the game because of that. What I mean by that exemple is: telling others what to do can take away their enjoyment of the game. I would even go as far as to say, if someone ask what to do, it could sometimes benefit them to say "figure it out yourself" or something along those lines.
Learning a game is part of the fun imo. Making mistakes as well. Especially in DnD where there is no scores, no winning or loosing. There is only having fun.
I always enjoy seeing videos like this, because every now and then I see something and go "wait, oh shit I do that sometimes" and now I know to stop.
Remember kids, you're not a bad player for doing these things, a lot of them are pretty normal, you're a bad player if you realize or are told you're doing it and don't stop
You forgot the butterfingered snail, who, inevitability, as soon as they touch the dice, the dice are on the floor, under the table, rolling out the door and into a fissure. The next five minutes is the said player lying on the floor fumbling for a dice which has fallen into the aether.
Oh no that's me, that's also why I sometimes roll my dice from a cup so they end up where I want them to
-10 sleight of hand
This video has been very useful for me, thank you!! For context, I watched this and saw parts of myself in some of the "toxic players" you listed (not to any extremes but the traits are there). This video has pointed out those issues, so I can start breaking some bad habits. 👍
I have a home rule called "roll for role play" everyone rolls a d20 and high numbers go first. Everyone has 5 minutes to speak before moving on to the next player. It keeps going till everyone says what they want to say. It helps with talking over each other and helps the more quiet players engage more.
this works aslong as everyone wants to be the first to talk
Wouldn’t it be better to instead… teach people how to have a normal conversation without the need for such a thing?
We've been experimenting with a 1 minute timer and I think it helps. It's a soft timer, though. Basically, you have one minute to get your plan in motion. Sometimes it takes a while to resolve the effects of a good plan! Catch 5 enemies in a carefully aimed fireball? That's just going to take some time to resolve the saves and damage, and that's without factoring in movement and bonus actions. You have 1 minute to ask a question or two for clarification if you need to, make a last second adjustment based on that information, and off you go. If you're still sitting there after 60 seconds, you take the dodge action and usually that only happens once in a session.
DMing my first campaign and I incorporated the 1 minute between rounds for the party to discuss a plan homebrew rule, and they all love it. They get some time to plan as a group, and then once it's their turn, they aren't sitting there trying to figure out what to do. Has definitely kept combat fun and faster paced.
The 1 minute timer is excellent for combat. It helps to immerse yourself into the hectic nature of an actual fight and force you into quick thinking like in one, too.
Our DM uses it and everyone in our friend group adapted it into all other campaigns as well
I always watch videos like this and try to apply what’s being said to how I conduct myself at the table. I know I’m not perfect (nobody is), and there’s always a chance to look back and see how to learn to handle the bad situations just a bit better.
Also, your yellow hat looks amazing!
I think one that you might have missed (or could go in the snail player): the oblivious player. This is the kind of player that has to keep asking what's going on because they're either not paying attention cuz they are bored or they are distracted by something else. These kinds of players are a problem for the group because they constantly have to be updated on what everybody else already knows which slows down the game play.
i have a tendency towards this - I have ADHD! So I keep notes of everything. I'm not the note-taker for session recaps, but i keep notes of names, initiative, our to-do list, bits like that. It's more for myself than anything cause everyone else tends to remember, but my notes have proven handy a few times! I also have the bag of holding so i keep inventory for that.
I have a recovering protagonist. It took a while, but one day I said the magic words and he's been gradually becoming more and more of a team player. Currently, the main issue is that he leaves the party behind to have one-on-one conversations with NPCs too often and most of them [the aforementioned conversations] don't require that much privacy. I've brought it to his attention and he's been toning it down with each session. For that issue specifically, I said "Your moment will come naturally as time goes on. Being alone will not accelerate that nor will it synthesize the moment. It only forces your party members to wait until you are done with your business. That feeling you may or may not get when I spend a decent amount of time focused on one other player? That is how everyone feels when you do this often. On occasion or when it's important to your character is fine, but it can't be all the time unless there is something literally causing you to be away from the party."
That sounds like it could make for some great in game character growth
Honestly I’d also recommend him to join a text-based RP group.
Our entire group would count as a protagonist at a table setting, or would check out of the game and be a snail.
But it’s set up so that there’s the group public chat, private chats between characters, and a “secret” chat for player-DM/NPC conversations.
It leads to a lot of interesting dynamics as the players bring new dynamics to the group chat in between major group events, like one player just outright getting engaged to a nymph he had met at a previous mission and had continued seeing during his “downtime” from the rest of the party.
It also means that snails are less of a problem (due to the nature of text based, there’s really no dedicated game time just whenever you see the notification) because individuals (or the DM if they’re bored) can just go “so… wanna hit up a bar, go on a hike, etc?” And set the interaction to sometime before or after whatever is going on in group.
So if your one party member is taking two weeks to pick a servant for a fate-based game… you and the other player can get hammered while the DM role plays the French martyr and English myth figure beating the snot out of each other.
But this kind/level of interaction would be very difficult to pull off at a real table, and inevitably monopolize one player.
I was always more of a snail because I couldn’t get that much into the RP because it was missing those little moments… and the text based approach was just eye opening for me
Fails can be incredibly funny...like when you cast the spell knock on a metal door while your party members all touch said door, then proceeds to cast crit fail on saves on a random trap also attached to said metal door...in my case, i ended up with 4 talking limbs on a stick (party "members"), my character class changed from sorc to bard due to failed save to trap interactions with various magic items on group and the door sunk into the nether realm, turning the stairs behind said door unenterable by just any means...a potentially great start to an adventure turned into a 1 session (6 hours) of belly laughing and no sequel session...it caused actual physical pains and memories I'll never forget. 😂
We have one that's a combo. He is highly competitive and as DM openly tries to kill the players and is mad anytime we get a good roll, turning any outcome to harm us. As a player he is murderhobo edgelord. We have all talked to him and nothing changes it. He is family (my teenage nephew) so we don't kick him. One thing we have done is the "team veto" if everyone in his team votes against him randomly lighting the NPCs house on fire to murder everyone (true story) then he has to pick another action. This way if everyone is on board with it have at it. We havent had to actually use the team veto since we started it, so it seems to have helped. Thank you for the video
I’ve never had to put a timer on turns but the threat of adding one has certainly made my players speed up 😂
I used the timer for a while and it helped with the general mindset both for my players and for me (bc I was a rather fresh DM when I used it). I play online, so technical difficulties are just normal, and I ran a campaign with six players which is a LOT when you don't see people's faces to read their intentions and people have to explain every single thing, and on top of that my players love to chat and discuss their options in great detail. All that strang the combat sooooo much even on levels 1-2 when combat is pretty straight-forward. So we played with the timer for a few sessions just to keep things a bit more dynamic. It was a bit too much, so now instead of a precise timer I just remind the players that their turn takes six seconds when I feel like they have a full-on strategy council in the middle of a fight or if they are not entirely certain which of two options to pick and take forever to make a choice. "You got six seconds, buddy!" is a powerful phrase)
My worst experience has actually come from a "snail" in roleplay with a dash of protagonist mixed in. They always make sure to tell everyone how their character is waving their arms, what face they're making, how they're hard to see in their robes, or what noises there are when opening their spooky book, or how fast they're writing in it every SINGLE TIME IN EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER AND SCENE. A one minute interaction becomes a twenty minute interaction. Every thing said within earshot of them has to be responded to and they become roped into the conversation. After the 100th time talking about how your tail flicks around in annoyance, you scrunch up your face, or wave your arm in exasperation, we don't need a description of it AGAIN! A 2 session dungeon becomes a 5.5 session dungeon, and I wish I was exaggerating, but the DM said was only meant to be a 2 session dungeon, given how small it was (1 session to get there with some roleplay, meet some characters in it and roleplay, some combat then session two would conclude the interactions with the characters after a boss fight and our group deciding what quest we want to accept next and some ending roleplay)!
This is, of course, not to say role play is bad... just be aware of when you've spent maybe too much time in the spotlight, and if people really need to know what your character is doing, if it adds anything to the scene, and if you've already said it a dozen times before. And of course, when it's time to maybe move the story forward a bit.
People who insist on roleplaying everything (every shop purchase etc.) are the worst. Same with DMs who have critical plot points based around one characters backstory.
15:48 wow that was such a beautiful quote, didnt expect it at all tbh, great video!
I went to meet up for DnD one time, 6 of us and the GM. The GM spent the entire 4.5 hours on 2 players shopping in town. Nobody else had a turn. I basically drove 25 miles to watch others play the game.... And that was the 2nd to last meet until we went on hiatus. I waited for about 1 year for everyone to get back together, only two find out it had been disbanded months before, and nobody told me...
I use a sand timer both when combat is taking too long and when my players sidebar too much. Works great so far.
I love this chaps add reads - they genuinely have me watching and remembering them
Something that may be of benefit to newer players is to have a player mentor--someone that can help answer questions about the game, the character stats/abilities, etc, that any new player to the table can approach with questions. Having a mentor GM for when someone is wanting to learn how to narrate the adventures would be helpful too. Often following what the big names on the screen tell you is very wrong for your group and it truly sucks breaking new players from those habits.
I run a post-apocalyptic dark fantasy RPG, everyone loved the game's heavier theme, however when playing it didn't take long until there were several subverters at the table, there was a character who was retired after getting married and living a peaceful life without wanting to venture out, or who ignored the main plot saying "I'll level it first".
This was the most fun ad read you’ve ever done, and that’s a high bar
I'm our groups forever DM and I've now realised that when I once got to play a PC in a oneshot I was a horrible backseat gamer. The problem is that I genuinly knew more about the mechanical abilities of the other peoples characters because I 1. helped them create them and 2. am our groups rules guru. It's still no reason to tell my bro to smite now (although that should have been a given xD). I realise my sin Mr. Shorts and will better myself!
It helps to remind them, rather than command them when it seems like they forgot.
Though, in some cases, players are just really resource conscious.
Timer works great for large groups with 8+ party members (weird, but I've run then typically single sessions though). It adds the urgency that there is limited time that players tend to naturally make decisions quickly to the point where I stopped using it but just told them they're on a time limit.
I have not gm'd a time limited game but have been a part of a game that did this and it actually caused 2 TPK's.
Man I remember when "Edgelord" meant like, a super dark and brooding character. Not like, a psychopath, but just like Batman but also kills. Wearing red and black, all leather, low voice, makes every situation related to their personal trauma.
I don't know when it started meaning "someone who has different lines that they're unafraid to cross" but now I have nothing to call my brooding, dual-wielding, randomly-stealthing and deeply traumatised characters.
1 minute hourglass timer is a good idea. If you have a 5-6 player party, it can help with out if combat situations that requires all players contribute. Keeps in-game conversations moving, reduces chances of protagonists taking over.
6:46
Yes! Please!
I have been wanting a video like that for years!
I had a minmaxer that was actually a good sport, and as a new DM and even know adays, I still don't mind that kind of play style as long as their not being rude about it. That being said, I'm still trying to find that balance of letting them have fun, but still be challenging and not a complet stomp for everyone, and not having the minmaxer feel like they are just overshadowing everyone else.
I don't think minimaxing in DnD is a problem at all, or that it exists, for that matter. In terms of stats, the most you get at the start is -1 to +3, and there's no way to be particularly good or particularly bad at anything. You can't be a glass cannon by dumbing everything down and making one stat 30 or something like that. Sure, you can play an optimised character or build combos, but the game assumes that you will be optimised to some extent (e.g. that you will have 16 on your main stat)
I’m in a party with a guy who sorta craps on everyone’s ideas, yet never offers any solutions of his own. I asked him straight up, at the table, “do you poop on every idea so that if it goes wrong, you can say, ‘see, I told you so’?” I felt, even as I was speaking, that it was too confrontational, but he laughed and said, “yeah, I guess so, sorry” and that was that. It’s better now, particularly if we can manage to ask him his ideas first.
That sounds like a subset of the anti-adventurer to me, of all the problem players listed here I think that one is the one I despise the most, maybe because it's the one I've had the most recent bad experience with.
... and that's the DM's job!
Your editing choices are like a wild magic sorcerer’s choices in magic.
father was a dm for 2e and AD&D, he told me the timer massively helped with pace of the game and made sure people were paying attention during combat. of course this is from way older games back in the 90's so take it with a grain of salt.
If people lie, this can be avoided via every player having to roll their dice in a bowl or something that is within view of everybody
Lol, I suffered with "Main Character Syndrome." All it took was a polite conversation with our DM and a few of our players and how they felt about it.
We were all friends anyway lol. So I listened.
Hell, the Edgelord section actually reminded me of a friend's horrifying experience with a GM. In session 0 he asked everyone what their triggers were and what things they had issues surrounding. My friend (female) said rape was a huge trigger and generally compulsions and loss of control were issues as well. She had thought that this was just the GM being good and making sure to know what to avoid and what to keep other players in check on (amazing behavior, everyone should do this), that is until session 1 when her character was immediately dominated and raped savagely. Apparently, the GM had decided that they were suddenly a qualified psychotherapist who knew for a fact that facing trauma and triggers in a TTRPG setting was the way to cure them. He was not a psychotherapist. He had no degrees or education beyond high school. He was VERY wrong about his assumptions and I ended up spending a few hours calming my friend down so she did not perpetrate real violence on him in the fugue state he had sent her spiraling into. It took her weeks before she was ok again. If I had been there I probably would have chucked a rulebook at his head the instant he said she failed the save against Dominate Person. Some people don't deserve dice.
jesus fucking christ
oh my god... that sounds disgusting. tbh it seems almost like the gm was doing it to be in control of the players - and using the psychotherapist thing as an excuse. im amazed that she didn't perpetrate real violence on him bc i know if hed had asked for my triggers and instead of not using them or warning me if they're involved in the game, he forced me to confront him, i would've acted out.
To be fair to you and your friend, real violence would have been a perfectly rational and acceptable reaction to this GM's actions.
'The enemy' is interesting occasionally. Not about builds and combos, but about story beats and roleplay. My last character's patron turned out to be one of the BBEGs. They learned this, effectively stopped using any warlock features, got their hands on an amulet and ring to protect against mind reading and divination, and then made a subtle comment to the BBEG that she was still on his side and needed to play up the conflict.
Here's the 'secret':
Then she came up with a plan to 'defect' to the BBEG's side and ask what she needed to do to prove her loyalty.
I wrote down and gave my DM what my plans were, but asked him not to open it.
She set up a way to cast feign death on her best friend (in the party) when she uttered the phrase 'stupid, sniveling halfling'.
With the expectation that the BBEG would say to kill them.
Semi-fortunately, this plan never had to be used, and I told the DM he could read it as soon as it became irrelevant.
To quote him: That's less so a read on the BBEG than it is a read on me, because that's exactly what I would have said in response to that question.'
This is a great summary of the majority of problematic player behaviour. I am guilty of at least two or three of these in my 25ish years of playing. Thanks to this and previous videos I have curtailed almost all of this behaviour at my end. That said, I regularly game with two people who exhibit multiple traits noted in the video on a regular basis. I will be bringing this to their attention as they are both longer term players than me, and also GM too.
I think some (and only some) subverters are variants of 'The Enemy' in regards to keeping secrets about their character. There's a trope in Heroic Fantasy called 'Refusing The Call' (even discussed in The Hero With a Thousand Faces). In Star Wars Luke was prepared to go home, choosing to do right by his uncle and aunt, rather than go with Obi Wan... Only to find they had been murdered by the Empire.
This video has actually made me realise that there's actually a way around this; discuss it with the player first and provide an opportunity to Refuse The Call.
3:43 Damn, it does bring out your eyes, now that you mentioned it 😂
Oh god I’ve dealt with a non-adventurer, my group was playing city of mist and this friend of ours made a character who wasn’t fully aware of his mythic side so when we went on cool missions he just went to his job. I still don’t understand how someone would want to play something like that, gm was super confused too
Think part of the issue is coming up with what you think is an interesting role play idea and realizing that all your decisions just aren’t lining up with where the action is. This can totally be the player’s fault if the character is just impractical, but it can also just be bad luck. Like, there could be multiple decent ways to light a fire under the reluctant character’s butt, but the decisions and plot just don’t make any sparks.
That said, a decent DM should probably have a talk after a session like that, not being accusatory but just finding out what’s up and maybe working out something story-wise. Just my opinion though.
Was kind of surprised to see that the Metagamer wasn't on there.
I've definitely dealt with all of these problem players, and their version of those tropes were even worse that what was on this video. I found myself half finishing Will's sentences because the version in this video were Care Bear versions of what I've dealt with as both a GM and player.
He did mention cheaters, but you're right, there is a lot to be said about cheating.
There's a simple solution for metagamers, don't copy paste stat blocks but make your own unique monsters
Missed this video on release. But Man... your Ryoko's commercials are the best. i can't wait to get my hands on mine. I've already got someone trying out a Ronin ranger, and she's loving it.
Used to be a protagonist due to FOMO, but I've grown since then. I also do tend to take charge during combat as I'm used to strategizing and I know most people's movesets and usually have high perception or insight, but I never tell people how to play their characters.
I’m the protagonist of fumbles lol even in Baldur’s gate 3 my first dices ended fumbles 😢
I've played months in a D&D campaign with a guy in the party who "roled" a Oath of Vengence Paladin, but drag the party in bad situazions, and he demanded to be right. Moral of the story, we stopped the campaign because we chased him away, but he was in a relation ships with the DM...
P.s. He was absolutely the enemy
i am very happy that most of my groups consist of shopping snails and we often have a full sessions just doing roleplay shopping and we are all having a good time. isnt it wonderful that these games fulfill our fantasy of having money so we can buy nice stuff?
Very awesome advice. I am DMing in a couple weeks for the first time in 30 years. I have to re-learn along with my level 1 players..
Thanks for helping it all come back.
Idk what type this is but one of my characters wanted to do a bunch of crazy things and was angry when he couldn’t. One time we were robbing a store (this wasn’t the problem cuz we all agreed that was ok) and once we were finished he tried to make a getaway (abandoning the rest of the party) by opening a portal using his “dm” magic (this person had only dm’ed once in their lifetime and it would still be annoying even if thy dm’ed more) and getaway. When my dm obviously said no they pitched a fit and left. This had taken the whole time we had to play dnd and we all had a sour taste in our mouth. Needless to say that dm didn’t come back.
I’ve played with two-minute timers before. It worked fine for me since I know the game well, whereas others simply lost their turns as a result. Players do usually get faster as they play more on timers, however.
Though, at least for me, a one-minute timer is simply too short.
Especially for full casters that already have dozens of spells they have to sift through. But that's why I stick with martials
@@giantdwarf9491 I can definitely see that.
I think it's worth rememberting that you also have everyone else's turn to plan your own on.
One common reason for snail behavior is to only start thinking about your actions when it's your turn. IMHO you should already know what you're going to do when your turn comes around. Sure, there are exceptions - sometimes the battlefield changes significantly just before your turn comes up - but those are just that. Exceptions.
@daniellundberg9225 that kind of aggressive thinking is exactly why I stay away from casters as a whole, I'm not a very organized person
@@giantdwarf9491 That's fair! 😉
As a DM for over 20 years, I always lay out the 3 rules of my tables in session 0. They're simple to follow and there are no margins for error:
- Players are entitled to play their characters the way they want during their turns.
- When I (The DM) make a ruling, it is because it either aligns with the rules or I have put thought into it being part of a Rule of Cool. If you disagree with my ruling, talk to me during the breaks or outside the game to discuss, not during the gameplay.
- While I do allow in-party-conflict (IPC) if it would add story elements and feel appropriate to the circumstance, starting conflict out of spite of me or the player, or solely to be toxic will result in an instant removal from the table.
-Example of appropriate IPC: Barbarian recklessly slaughters an NPC because he didn't have anymore information on the barbarian's tribe's whereabouts, Paladin becomes upset at the behavior and reprimands the barbarian for the act, Barbarian wants to fight Paladin for butting into business that doesn't concern him.
-Example of IPC that will result in being kicked out: I make a ruling against the Rogue that they wouldn't be able to escape from a pit they fell into after failing their check to disarm a trap, Wizard wanted to see if there was another way to get him out of there before using spell slots, Rogue comes back later during his watch during the long rest and tries to assassinate the sleeping Wizard for not getting him out immediately. (and yes, both of those examples actually happened during my sessions)
- Breaking the first 2 rules for the first time will result in a warning. A second time will result in a private discussion during the break or after the session. A 3rd time will be removal from the game.
It's so easy you can teach it to a monkey, and it stops basically all of the nonsense. The way you handle appropriate IPC is to conduct it into a modular world. Make the world not revolve entirely around the players, but make the world react and change around their actions and decisions. Just as much as the players would take advantage of distracted enemies, the world will take advantage of distracted players.
As a DM, a problem that i get is the "I'll talk bad to all your NPC and nothing wrong will happen because i will start to make a scene if you kill my character". The ploblem happen sometimes with one of my player and i get that i should kill character if they act with no brain but i also want that people get fun at the table. I think that i'll try the jail for the next time.
But great video as always ! ;)
I had a player a bit like that.
They didn't think I would insta-kill them if they did something completely stupid.
So they decided to mouth off to a wizard council.
And they were right, I didn't instakill their character.
I had them roll 10 saves they had almost no chance of passing and then instantly killed them.😊
That seems really aggressive to me. Killing a player should only ever be a last resort. I’d say, “make ten willpower or constitution saves. Each one you fail, they cast a curse on you.” That’s the punishment that keeps on giving.
You have to remind players that it's a living breathing world, and there are consequences to their actions, and sometimes that means having a wizard council kill them.
I had a friend group that played DnD online, one of the players wanted to try out dming, so we let them. The first campaign, ended in a few sessions because we were given a quest to help some people that kept getting robbed. We beat up the culprits, and they told us that they were working under the Thieves' guild. Naturally, our characters though the DM was telling us to go there, fight ensues with boss that we couldn't beat, DM doesn't understand why we did thata after trying to explain to them. Second campaign that they tried went a little better at first, but come session 2 or 3, our group had tied up some bandits to help a town, and were staking out their campsite for the rest to return at the end of the previous session. An hour and a half into the session, we are still having a back-and forth talk with the bandits that is going nowhere (they aren't fighting us, giving information, or anything), so one of the players just exclaims that it's been an hour and a half and we had done nothing yet, and that ended the campaign right there. I would like to say that it was a learning experience, but it really wasn't. Every time we tried to tell the DM where they went wrong, they either deflected to what they thought, or just said they didn't understand. It was one of the must frustrated that I had ever been playing DnD because I wanted it to work, but it just didn't
I really appreciate you making this video. As a new player I want to have the best experience possible for myself and other players. I think this video serves great as both what to look out for and a mirror as well.
Might have to disagree on "The Cheater". Doing it every once in a while wouldn't be too bad. I feel that doing it often would take shine away from players that are rolling fairly and would take away some roll-related drama from the game as a whole.
I would really appreciate the video about dealing with powerful combos. My players once unleashed the find familiar + dragon breath combo on me to wipe out a horde of zombies, and I didn't know what to do, thinking it would 'ruin' the encounter I shut it down. But I felt bad about it.
Let me first ask, what's the combo? I haven't heard this one
My advice in general, if they hit you with something you didn't expect, let it play out, at the very least that one time. Come back to it later if you need.
I've only had one proper campaign as a player and my favorite moment from it was taking out hundreds-- we didn't actually play through killing hundreds in turn order, but it was a sure thing so my GM just fast-forwarded-- of skeletons with a pretty simple combo. This might be less meaningful moment if they've played a lot already, but GM aside, that was the first campaign for us in the party. That moment was everything.
This was also a good point to end the arc and we'd had time to build to it. I can understand why you would be reluctant to do so if you weren't. I've been on the GM side of things since that campaign and as long as it's in the rules and not something previously discussed, I tend to let them do it, but I also haven't had my players hit me with something like that in 5e. If anything, I get into trouble with things like City of Mist where the rules are lighter and less clear so it often comes to me making a call.
@@V-vision You can cast the Dragon's Breath spell on a willing creature, including a familiar, which can then spew fire breath (or any other chromatic element) as an action through the duration. Cast it on an Owl Familiar and you got yourself a little wyrmling who can fly around and vaporize some low CR chaff, like 30 zombies locked in a room with a single window.
@@DanRobotMan Ahh yeah. That's a pretty easy wipe. Ours was a Cleric with spirit guardians that had been made to fly vs skeletons equipped largely with melee weapons
@@DanRobotMani mean…. 30 zombies in a confined space can be dealt with with ease in a huge number of ways, the exploit in question is arguably not even an efficient option.
No-one - and I mean NO-ONE advertises products quite as well as you. I often snicker at your takes..............as that is not an easy thing to do.
Anyone else ever play "Player Enemy: The Masquerade"???
So long as everyone is on board (and open to potential PK), V:tM is super fun when no one can talk to the DM (storyteller) while in the same room as any other players, everyone is plotting on each other... some of my best games I've ever played/ran
just throwing this out there: 10:53,
I was never a fan of the timer. it works but it really puts alot of pressure on the player to not think.
I run a round at a time by having players play 'action' cards all at once and then reveal them on their turn. it simulates real combat as actions are taken simultaneously rather than consecutively meaning you cant change your mind if another player does x.
Makes combat rounds quicker (though total combat stays roughly the same), minimizes back seating, and forces the party to discuss tactics together before taking anyone's turn.
Thank you for making this video, I’m a new player, and this made me more confident about how I played my first one-shot, and reminds me to continue being mindful of my behavior in the future 👍
I play in a game where the DM uses a 90 second timer in combat. He's not very strict with it but it does make things move along briskly.
Actually a really insightful video! I've played DnD for a long time, DMed for a few, and introduced many to the wonderful game we all enjoy. Didn't realize until now that I do a lot of backseat gaming trying to help new players and new dms. It's a game, lets all have fun!
I started the Timer method when I had some players that were taking to long on their turns. For the most part I don't really need to use it, but when I see a player being to indecisive or stalling to much I start counting down to encourage them to come up with something quickly.
I tend to be the protagonist when I’m playing as a PC kinda on accident because I tend to play with newer/ less experienced players but I always check in with everyone else after the session to make sure I’m not upsetting them.
3:58 When you said some of the best moments happen because of bad rolls, it reminded me of Critical Role (spoilers for Campaign 2 below)--
Talliesin rolled horribly for Molly during a big boss fight and it ended up with Molly being killed. He got a really badass sendoff (spitting in the face of the bbeg before he died), a really touching burial, and it set the stage for the coolest Ultimate BBEG with Lucien and the Neo Somnovem. It was so sad and sucked when Molly died, but that bad dice roll ended making Campaign 2, in my opinion, the best.
Our DM sometimes uses a 1 or 2 minute timer in the fight if he deems it as a rapid fight where our characters wouldn’t have the time to think about what they can do
On the Edgelord element, my tables have come up with an initial Pre Session 0 survey that helps identify potential triggers and subjects judged to be beyond the comfort level of a player. Each is submitted to the GM directly and the details are not shared but the GM can then use Session 0 to set the expectations of the table for the game in terms of allowed and banned content. I've found it quite useful for some of the edgier players to know what subjects should be left out or possibly just heavily obscured so as to avoid trigger situations that can make other players uncomfortable.
Back around 1980-1982, I had a DM who had the Enemy thing going, and we had a player who was bordering on an Extradimensional Jerk. In the same group.
That said, I haven't had a really problem player or GM issue since then. I've had DMs who just weren't good at it, and players who didn't seem to get the idea, but they did get better over time.