@@ketsune23 Actually it was invented by "pagan" Romans. Pagan by today's standards, but not by their own, since the word meant someone who dwells out on the countryside, with a slightly pejorative meaning, equivalent to today's "redneck". Interestingly that makes it essentially the same as the word heathen; someone who lives out on the heath.
When I came out of the broom closet and told my mother, she was horrified, angry, betrayed even. Though she never said it, I think she contemplated demanding I move out and leave. The next day, she went to have her hair did, (not a typo) and vented to her hairdresser about the experience. It was the hairdresser that convinced my mother of the value in my decision, that it wasn't inherently evil or even wrong. And that was all it took, suddenly I was her beloved child and accepted again. Sometimes you'll never say the right thing, sometimes nothing you do can convince someone else, but as long as accurate and positive information is spread rather than hateful bigotry, someone will be waiting in the wings to speak up for you, to have your back. So Ocean, I got your back. Thanks for covering mine.
I joined an Asatru community online and they sent me a certificate of membership and my mum found it and said that I'd joined a cult. Although she didn't bring it up again, it bothered me a bit
As a subscriber to both of you I'm glad the atheist community is getting friendlier with our pagan community I'm also glad of how ocean represents pagans
I have been subscribed to the both also. Not as long but watching/ listening to this it’s nice to see them be civil. I have listened to these two side like eat each other and no good conversation.
@znrmstrng no. The person willing to help is my friend. The person willing to listen is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is likely a cunt. Better to look for actual friends than trauma bonds. That being said, I’m a huge fan of both of these guys. Reminds me why I was an atheist and why I am a heathen now.
I only just noticed that Jehova's Witnesses talk about us pagans in a VERY similar way to how the Nazis talked about jews, holy shit that made me glad it hasn't caught on outside their little cult.
I try to leave a person to their own path, in peace. I hope they will do the same. I believe we can’t gain peace and respect without living it also. Peace
@@rodneydecormier1504 Shame. Genuine Cults will not leave stuff alone and live in peace. A cult wants to bring people in and keep them in, they just want to scare everyone by saying stuff like "The ONLY way to reach heaven is by baptism through "Insert Church/org here"" and can become hostile to other ideas because a Cult knows that they can't be Tax excempt if they don't have the followers. People will become hostile as well if they hear something that challenge their World and/or Spiritual views. I'll just try to live my life, talk and learn. That's it.
I LOVE Ocean! I'm gonna be honest, I'm an atheist, and I used to think pretty negatively about people who are part of any spiritual belief system, but Ocean changed my mind about how I view pagans, and I don't want to be judgmental of folks who have religious beliefs anymore.
Same Im trying to get over my christian trauma and be ok with progressive christians paganism helps me do that i feel if i remained atheist I never would get out of the angry atheist phase cause it felt so stagnit to me
I m a former christian and now atheist. I really enjoy seeing multiple people express their world view. I wish all religions could come together and talk about their believes without acting up. Especially the christians and atheists have the tendency to do that.
I agree. There's something like a spiritual territory battle going on between Christians and atheists. As if us weak and mortal hunans could lord it over the worlds beyond without completely cocking it up. I think we could learn from the Native Americans: don't try to take possession of anything beyond your power to control. In addition to which, a good number of atheists dismiss the idea of a spiritual world as impossible and in violation of "pure" reason. They subsequently conclude that anything "spiritual" is not proper and correct atheism and should be avoided at all costs.
I find people get scared when you say you aren't Protetyzing because most people don't trust it to be true. So many of those Christians are trying to convert.....same for the majority of the active atheists. Thank you for doing this and being so well-spoken. It was amazing to see someone talk publically about paganism that wasn't a fluff bunny.
Just because atheists criticize religion doesnt mean theyre trying to convert. Its more of a defe sive posture because we've been bombarded with religion as "normative" our whole life.
I've been wondering through agnosticism for a few years now after losing my faith in christianity. Both of your channels have been benenficial to my journey and it's great to see you both discuss things
Do you think there are more heathens than eclectic pagans? I would think that would be the second biggest group of people. Great interview, love both your channels ❤️
I adore how the atheist and pagan communities have come together . I think its a really healthy thing, atheists being exposed to the fact that there are more than 2 religions and pagans being exposed to rationale and how to believe healthily without all the traps that many spiritual (and esspecially mono-theisitic people) fall into. its really great as someone who was an atheist for a long time and is now pagan
This conversation is wonderfully encouraging! I’ve been on a path, listening to my own inner voice as well! I was also raised Christian (LDS). I would whole heartedly love to join in the conversation of polytheism and the study of this...idk...rise? In awareness? I feel insecure because of my lack of education, but I am eager to learn about ALL OF IT. The study of humans and magical thinking, that sense of something that has been, and even why this still exists. I am a student of the why. Always. I’m a big fan of challenging ones gods, and I believe that these elongated stories have deified humans who performed great feats. And those stories have been extrapolated, like the game of telephone 🤣 Jesus, Odin, Ragnar, we in the present day can’t interact with them, but their story persists. Why? These are my thoughts and love and would love discussing this! Anyway, thank you Ocean. You have a friend and ally within me. 🥰
Wanna say thank you making these videos. I have been Norse-curious for a long time, but all the online sources were immediately on some video game or show... This is helpful in finding articles/sources to look up/read.
Even though this is a joke, and think it’s actually technically correct. Before Christian’s came along, everyone was pagan, and fun definitely predates Christianity.
Hi i am Christian but i quite enjoy listening to other opinions and things it's very interesting. Thanks for sharing your point of view i am always open to learning more .
Great video! Very thought provoking. Ocean's discussions have definitely helped me open up to my father about my own paganism. Surprisingly, Dad was quite happy to hear I've left atheism behind. Said he'd much rather me be pagan than atheist lol!
some theories say that the easter bunny is based on the greek mythos of orion, that the bunny lepus was originally a bird who was turned into a bunny, by Artemis or Eostara to be able to save herself (lepus) from the hunter Orion. and she was asked by the godess if she liked being a bunny, she said that she did, but that she missed the feeling of laying eggs, so she was aloud by the godesse that once a year, in the spring, be able to lay eggs.
I always celebrate Yule with a dinner among friends or family followed by going to my outdoor alter with a bonfire, (yule log) exchanging gifts and celebrate the rebirth of the Great horned God & giving a food offering since he was a hunter.
Hi Ocean, would love to have you do a full video on "Atheo-paganry". I'd love to hear your description and objections laid out. Since being introduced to the concept (by you incidentally) I've become fascinated by the concept. Many of my best friends and the people I look up to are Pagan, and I have a deep fascination with the stories that can only really be described properly as "spiritual", however I'm not convinced of the literal existence of powerful immaterial beings and find the idea suspect because it is fundamentally unfalsifiable. Thanks as always for what you do! P.S. It's tough having this conversation because both atheists and pagans alike generally act like you've grown a second head for even broaching the topic. I got banned from r/pagan for just using the term, so any help would be appreciated.
capitalistraven I have been thinking heavily about this and honestly I don’t even know if a religion like my belief exists but I believe the Gods were once active here on earth but due to the laws of physics and the expansion of the universe they had to move on and we have just lost all knowledge given by superior beings who introduced consciousness into humans.
I think the question you have to ask yourself is whether there is actually any difference between belief in literal, powerful immaterial beings and belief in literal, powerful immaterial ideals. I think we all agree that ideals exist - and as far as I can see all a god is, is the personification of that ideal. For me, there is no difference.
Atheo- pagans not being considered truly pagan/atheist really irks me. I think it’s plan willful ignorance to claim they don’t exist after being taught about what it is.
Honestly at first I was like little long but then I got lost in the talk and loved .. and then when you said we gotta wrap it I was dang it .. you both were gonna cover some deep stuff I know it.. looking out for next one. Be safe brothers
I think that it is a little more insidious. I think the witnesses ban these common practices, so that their members will feel further isolated from the culture around them, and thus feel more trapped if they consider leaving. Plus, Christmas has become a time of fellowship for all mankind, and not just Christians, Atheists celebrate Christmas, pagans with Christian or Atheist families celebrate Christmas, people who are not particularly religious or the sort celebrate Christmas, it is something that flies in the face of the idea "only we are your community" when such disparate people come together in community on a holiday. Christmas has become more than a religious holiday, it is a holiday around family, community, good will to all mankind, and if you are part of a high control group, you can not have that. The very idea of it becomes a threat to your control. You make people feel like Aliens in the outside culture, then they will think twice about leaving the one they are told they are welcome in.
As an Atheo-Pagan myself, my perspective (this is only my perspective, I've yet to meet another atheo-pagan with these views and do not claim to speak for them) on the Gods is that they are archetypes originating from our inner psyche, as a piece of evidence for this hypothesis, the "hieroglyphics" which, etymologically originates from the Greek for "Divine Words," a claque from the Egyptian Mdw Ntr, "The God's Word," are believed by some today to have been literally viewed as the words of the Gods, as in, whenever you read something, you hear a voice in your head reading for you, to the Kemetic faith, this may have actually been viewed as the Gods discussing with them. I also look at the Personal Gods worshiped in the fertile crescent who were worshiped below the Gods of the Kingdom who were said to have founded their Kingdoms along side their human founders, (compared to Christianity, it's like how many Christians have the idea of personal Guardian Angels under Yahweh), I view this as evidence of the Gods originating from our personal internal psyche, each individual's thoughts, morals, ethics, and values are in their own sense Gods and worthy of individual and voluntary veneration (to force veneration or worship of a God, real or axiomatic, is to commit evil). This, I believe, is not simply a kind of God, but what the Gods actually are. I also view it with respect for nature, economy, and technology, external requirements for our species health and well being, as well as the well being of our ecological environment. Ultimately, I personally in my own life create metaphorical personified archetypes of rational axioms and venerate them, I pray, preform rituals, make minor sacrifices, and strive to improve myself based on these axioms and do my best to aid others in need of help in order to live up to a standard of what I view as right. As for if Gods do or do not exist, I am firmly agnostic, I do not believe they do, but perhaps they do, that said, I believe it may be possible to create reflections of the Gods in our personal life through our actions and perhaps in the future through building, there's a hyperstitional aspect to my belief there, Gods themselves being somewhat of a hyperstition, people will seek to build Gods as they have for all time.
I know a Christian lady and she tried to tell me that native Americans worshipped Jesus before the white man came here I tried to tell her this just isn't true and she got very nasty with me about this where does this weird idea come from? I need more info if there is any at all
Sorry I couldn't help but laugh at how many tangents had to be edited out while Ocean was talking - how long was this originally?? Lol, I say this with love. Great video!
I think "pegan" is so hard to explain as it's a non organized religion. Most people, (and no offense but mostly chirstians and atheists, but all people) can't seem to wrapped their head around a non organized religion. They don't understand not having hard "Do this, not that, we believe this" belief system. I know with things like youtube, insta, really social media, there seems like a lot of "this is how you do it" but it's very bases of the religion is more about your personal feelings/understanding so that can only say "this how I do it."
29:53 - in judaism is more of a religious custom from what i can remember that only the bride, she gets the ring w the proper blessing/s from her husband to be, so they dont exchange rings literally... some may choose to exchange rings but it comes usually without a blessing that's specifically for that, lol ... or&/outside the ritual
Great video! I listened to “American God’s” by Neil Gaiman which centers on Odin and provided some backstories of other deities. How many have read this book?
I think these cults ban fun stuff to further bind you into their structures. If something good is happening to you, it has to come from the cult. Getting gifts on your birthday just for being born would mean you had some intrinsic value and thus would be worth too much as to just bow down to your cult leader. It would be even worse if you had fun with people outside the cult because then you might start to think that not every outsider is a spawn of Satan deserving of punishment.
Hey I have a question ocean. So paganism sorta has been booming these recent years but everyone is worshiping the Norse gods which is odd to me because I feel like besides christianity, that the greek pantheon is most well known. What's your opinion?
Probably an unpopular opinion but I believe Norse has gained the lost traction because it fits most comfortably in the capitalist, oligarchical, and aggressive society we have created. I follow the Greek pantheon though I believe all pagan religions were in contact with the same gods. The Greeks were deeply philosophical and philosophy is not exactly a popular school of thought in this day and age.
@@stiletteleray1326 But you could also argue that the greek gods would fit our increasingly hedonistic, excessive society better. Norse culture was built on a caste system of rulers, farmers/tradesmen, and slaves. You could look at todays upper, middle, and lower class as a reflection of this. Structurally we are probably more norse, but behaviorally we are probably more greek.
Well one explanation is, that we know so much about the Greek gods. There isnt that much room to be creative about it. But the Norse gods, and the cult around them is pretty much a blank sheet. Its easier to construct a modern religion around them.
@@hoegild1 I am not sure the word "cult" is correct in this context. The Norse Religion is far older than christianity for one, and does include the belief in gods /supreme beings. One short definition of the difference between a religion and cult: ... A cult is a new religious movement. A religion is a formal organised body who generally meet various criteria such as: Belief in some kind of supreme being or principle.
Per the old testament Jeremiah 10:3 quotes the quoting down of trees and bringing it in to be decorated with silver and gold. You can pick your version. Some gets a little more descriptive than others about it. So the Jewish people saw it as a pagan rite in the old testament. But Christianity as we know it today is really a bunch of Pagan beliefs relabelled under a founder of a denominations personal spiritual beliefs/practices as being acceptable or not.
In finland christmass tree is very old tradition. And has something to do with pagans. Also. Easter eggs come from orthodox christianity where they symbolize the new berth of christ
Actually, comparing my community’s Serbian Orthodox faith, I know a lot of people in the community, I’d say a large minority, are opposed to celebrating pagan and heretical festivals, so Gregorian calendar Christmas and Santa stuff beyond anything directly involved to st Nicholas is banned in some households, a lot of kids, though definitely not the majority, were not allowed to trick or treat because it’s demonic and pagan, I know a lot of families came to accept western Christmas celebrations and Halloween over time
Well considering how many weird practices that we have from germanic Christianity, there’s a good chance it’s local pagan practices, and some of them have totally blown up
🎅🤲🥨 TLDR We’ve all heard it before. “BuT ChRiStMaS iS a PaGaN fEsTiVaL!”
Well, no. But also, yes. It would not be unfair to argue that at some point in the history of these isles, the tradition of Yule was subsumed into the Christian Christmas. However, there is also a fair amount of evidence that points towards Christmas absorbing a fair amount of pagan traditions. Several of the traditions that we take for granted today have their origins deep in the mists of time, many years prior to the Christianisation of Northern Europe. In this article, we shall attempt to shed some light upon the pagan midwinter feast known as Yule, beginning with its murky origins in the Stone Age, moving through the Bronze Age and into the Anglo-Saxon and Viking era before having a look at modern Yule celebrations. At this time of year, families from across the country would ordinarily be travelling home for Christmas, preparing to spend their winter break indulging in food, drink and good cheer. The days are short, the nights are long, and Christmas provides us with the opportunity to reconnect, recharge and celebrate with those that we love most. For humans, the mid-winter celebration has carried significant religious and cultural connotations. In our current era, beset as we are on all sides by the conveniences of modernity, it is easy to overlook the primal functions provided by these gatherings. For our not-so-distant ancestors the mid-winter celebration was one of the most important dates in the calendar. To come together as a family, tribe, and community in the darkest, coldest part of the year to share in festivities and feasting was an important bonding process for human societies in the past. This pagan mid-winter festival has long been linked with the gods and goddesses of Northern Europe, specifically with the cult of Woden/Odin and the Wild Hunt, though to a lesser extent with the Anglo-Saxon fertility god Fréa Ing and the thunder god, Þunor. It is almost certain that this time of year was sacred across much of the Germanic speaking cultures of Northern Europe. During the early medieval period, this time of celebration was referred to as Yule. Yule began its life as the mid-winter festival celebrated by the people of Northern Europe during Late Antiquity and the early medieval period. In the treatise, ‘The Reckoning of Time’, written by the Northumbrian monk Bede, he refers to the Roman months of December and January as Ærra Géola (Before Yule), and Æftera Géola (After Yule). The implication in Bede’s writing is that Géola, the Old English term for Yule, was the name for the winter solstice. Æftera Geola, roughly corresponds with modern January. The first day of Æftera Geola was the day of midwinter, the New Year for this time, but nowadays falls on the 25th December. Midwinter day begins four days after the winter solstice. Yule began from sunrise and brought an end to the old year and a beginning to the first day of the new year. There followed twelve days of celebration of the passing of midwinter, the return of the sun and the renewal of life. This holiday lasted until the twelfth night of Æftera Geola (now 6th January). Hence the Yule and New Year celebrations were once one and the same. Bede also mentions that the new year began on Módraniht , “Mothers' Night”, the evening of the 25th of December. On this night, it is believed that the Anglo- Saxons honoured the Ídisi, female protective spirits. Bede, being the holy man of God that he is, is very reticent to expand upon the all-night activities and celebrations of Módraniht, and it may well be that the activities taking place during this night were those which ‘celebrated’ fertility. In any case, the etymology of Yule also points to its origins being much earlier that the medieval period. The word Yule is the modern English evolution of the Anglian Old English words géol and géola or géoli, the former of which indicates the 12-day festival of Yule and the latter indicating the entire month. Both words are thought to be derived from the Common Germanic root word jehwlan and are cognates to the Gothic fruma jiuleis (dating back to the 4th century AD) and Old Norse jól, (Danish and Swedish jul and Norwegian jul or jol).
Despite these linguistic similarities, however, the actual origin of the term Yule remains controversial amongst scholars. Though there have been some attempts to link Yule with the term “wheel”, these arguments are linguistically flawed, and speculative attempts have been made to find Indo-European cognates outside of the Germanic group, but without much progress. The most likely theoryis that ‘yule’ merely means ‘a time of revelry’. This is related to the Old English verbs gylian / giellan - meaning to yell or to shout, whilst the uncommon Old English word gýlan, means ‘to make merry, keep festival’. If we are to look across the waters to our cousins in Scandinavia, we can see more evidence for this interpretation - in Old Norse poetry, the word is often employed as a synonym for feast - such as in the kenning hugins jól, the raven’s feast. It’s pre-Christian context is also developed primarily in the Old Norse sources - two of the many names of Odin are directly related to the festival of Yule, where he is known as the jólfaðr, the ‘Yule father’ and jólnir, the ‘Yule one’, whilst in the 12th century source Ágrip af Nóregskonungasögum it is explicitly stated that the name of Christmas, iol, comes from the name of Odin, iolne. But you didn’t come to read this article to learn about the history of words, did you?
The Pagan mid-winter Feast The history of Yule is a long and complex one, so here we shall attempt to break it down into manageable chunks. The pagan festival of Yule was in effect, a midwinter feast. Although the specific dating of the feast is a matter of debate, it undoubtedly had a pronounced religious character and had existed in one form or another for millennia before the Anglo-Saxon and Viking Age. During the West European Stone Age and the Bronze Age, the mid-winter sacrifice and feast functioned as an element of the cult of the dead, and was centred around the veneration of ancestors and a celebration of the return of the sun. Evidence from Stonehenge and other ritual sites across the country suggests that from around 2500BC, people were travelling and herding animals from across the country in order to take part in the feasts hosted there. Analysis of the 38,000 discarded animal bones at Stonehenge shows that 90% of the bones and teeth come from pigs, and the rest primarily from cattle. Many still had meat attached to them when they were discarded, suggesting that there was more than enough food to go around. Some of the bones have cut-marks made by flint tools, suggesting that beef was cut into pieces. Burnt foot bones suggest that pigs were roasted over open fires. Many of the pigs had been killed at around nine months old, and since the piglets were most probably born in the spring, they were therefore all being slaughtered at midwinter. The conclusion is that people were almost certainly gathering together in large numbers, probably all coming together at a single site in order to take part in larger feasts and communal gatherings at this time of year. This is backed up by stable isotope analysis, which has shown us that some of the animals which were slaughtered came from as far away as Scotland and Wales, indicating that at the very least, people and animals were travelling substantial distances to attend these celebrations. Whilst it would be disingenuous to propose that there is a clear continuation from the Stone Age into the Anglo-Saxon and Viking Age, it is uncertain to what extent that the Germanic Yule feast continued to function as part of the cult of the dead and the veneration of ancestors. The close association with the Wild Hunt would seem to imply that, even if there was no clear continuation, the mid-winter feast still served a similar purpose, and that by the of the Anglo-Saxon and Viking Age, there were long established traditions which would have been repeated every year, including travelling to celebrate the solstice with a wider network of associates and friends. This would have served the purpose of strengthening social ties between friends and allies, and as something to look forward to after the hard manual labour of farming in the autumn and the cold and darkness of the winter. It should also be noted that Yule is markedly distinct from the ancient Roman festival of Saturnalia, which was held towards the end of December around the time of the Winter Solstice and continued to be a popular festival well into the fourth century C.E. Some of customs involved with Saturnalia, such as gift-giving and partying, were absorbed by the seasonal celebrations surrounding Christmas and the New Year as Christianity spread through the Roman Empire. During that time, under the Julian calendar, December 25th was the winter solstice and was celebrated as the Dies Natalis of Sol Invictus, the ‘Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun’. This marked the shortest day of the year and heralded the beginning of the new year. Nowadays, most people use the Gregorian Calendar, which means that the solstice falls upon the 21st or 22nd of December.
The first attestations to a purely Germanic Yule appear in 4th century Gothic language in the name of the month fruma jiuleis, and as previously mentioned, in the 8th century from the Northumbrian historian Bede. The events of the Germanic Yule feast were most likely held around midwinter and would have involved the participants feasting, drinking, making sacrifices and swearing oaths - continuing age old customs which could probably have dated back as far as the Bronze Age, and still feature in Christmas festivities even to this day. For the Anglo-Saxons, the three main gods - Woden, Þunor and Ing - would have had the strongest association with Yuletide, and it is likely that for these early English people, the Yule feast would have still been a time for the cult of the honoured ancestral dead. This is where the ancient belief of the ‘Wild Hunt’ - a group of ghostly riders, beasts, and fallen warriors who would tear across the winter skies, led by Woden/Odin himself - comes into play. As modern scholars theorise wildly around the nature of Odin, with some arguing that he had always been a god of kings, royalty and the aristocracy, who supplanted Tiwaz (Tyr) as the supreme sky god, whilst others contended that he was in fact the god of landless men and the Männerbünde . If we were to accept the theory of Óðinn as a deity central to landless, itinerant wanderers in a society that glorified violence and conflict, it would be important to consider how this had an impact upon the idea of the Yule feast. In her extensive thesis on Óðinn, Kris Kershaw proposes an argument for the existence of what she terms the ‘Indo-Germanic Männerbünde’. Her thesis outlines the root and existence of a cultic warrior brotherhood that existed in ancient Germania, Scandinavia and which had parallels across the entirety of Europe, into Iran and beyond the Indus, all sharing elements of a once common Indo-European origin. She asserts that the männerbünde - the warriors dedicated to Odin - spent their time away from the tribe, only returning to their communities for the midwinter feast of Yule, dedicated of course to Óðinn in order to ‘steal’ beer and food. This was a blessing to both the village and the tribe, and the warriors were to be given their due reverence - if not, they were to pull doors and roofs off the houses or reduce it to rubble. The anti-social activities of the cultic warriors of Kershaw’s männebünde are similar to the way that the Norse sagas depict berserkers and ulfheðnar. These individuals, for most of the year, exist outside of the bounds of regular society. The return to the tribe or settlement to cause havoc, get drunk, and to party is not too outlandish a theory - especially if the feast is dedicated to their patron god. In her thesis, Kershaw states that this concept of the cultic warrior band can be seen as analogous to the Wild Hunt, and can be explained through examining the actual practices of the cult of Wodan. Seeing the Wild Hunt was originally thought to be a premonition of a catastrophe such as war or disease, or potentially even the death of the one witnessing it. It was also believed that those that encountered the Hunt may be abducted to the underworld or their spirits pulled away in their sleep to join them. The Wild Hunt is a ghostly host of beasts, wolves and men, but by far its most important aspect was the einherjar; those who had died and gone to Valhalla now tear across the night sky with Odin during his frantic chase. These einherjar of folklore and mythology have their own living counterparts, in the form of the männebünde, bands of ecstatic warriors,, young men of flesh and blood whom through costume and religious ecstasy, return home to celebrate in cultic union with dead warriors of their past. It may be that this was some form of religious ceremony in itself, and the return of the männebünde for the Yule feast was a significant part of the celebrations. However, the evidence for the männerbünde theory, is scarce, (and should be taken with a pinch of salt) and its advocates acknowledge that there is not a great deal of evidence for the existence of these independent warrior bands prior to or during the Viking Age, but defend their position by arguing that the academic model they provide is useful. In any case, the lack of sources concerning Old Norse religion should ‘warn us against the exaggerated use of argumenta ex silento.’ What we do know is that , feasting and drinking played a key part in Germanic celebrations, and whether or not the männebünde theory is an accurate one, it is not hard to imagine that the winter solstice would be seen as a wonderful occasion for warriors to return to their communities, visit their families, get incredibly drunk, honour the gods and cause havoc with their drunken shenanigans. Indeed, one must only take a walk around the bars of our own cities in the weeks leading up to Christmas to see drunken groups causing chaos, it is not too far-fetched a theory to imagine that the same would happen leading up to the midwinter celebrations of our ancestors. It is through these Yule celebrations, where the belief that the veil between the world of the living and the dead was thinner, that the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings may have believed that their honoured dead were present at the Yule feast, and thus it was customary for an extra place to be laid at the table. At Yule, the spirits of the ancestors were thought to be permitted to return to the land of the living. As such they were welcomed back into the home to visit their kin and partake of the food and drink.
Despite these tantalising glimpses, the sources for the early periods are scant and difficult to interpret, and the most important written records we have of Yule celebrations in a pre-Christian context comes from Old Norse literature. In the Saga of Hákon the Good, who reigned during the 10th century, King Hákon of Norway is credited with both the Christianisation of Norway and the rescheduling of Yule to coincide with the Christian celebrations that were being held at the time. As a Christian arriving in pagan Norway, Hákon hides his beliefs in order to receive the help of the great chieftains. In time he passes laws establishing that Yule celebrations are to take place at the same time as Christian Christmas, and ‘at that time, everyone was to have ale for the celebration, with a measure of grain’. Over time, Hákon’s popularity increased and he felt comfortable bringing bishops and priests over the North Sea from England, leading to many people converting Christianity and stop making sacrifices at the Yule gatherings. However, the pagan traditions were described as thus: “It was ancient custom that when sacrifice was to be made, all farmers were to come to the heathen temple and bring along with them the food they needed while the feast lasted. At this feast all were to take part of the drinking of ale. All kinds of livestock were killed in connection with it, horses also; and all the blood from them was called hlaut [sacrificial blood], and hlautbolli, the vessel holding the blood; and hlautteinar, the sacrificial twigs [aspergills]. These were fashioned like sprinklers, and with them were to be smeared all over with blood the pedestals of the idols and also the walls of the temple within and without; and likewise the men present were to be sprinkled with blood. But the meat of the animals was to be boiled and served as food at the banquet. Fires were to be lighted in the middle of the temple floor, and kettles hung over the fires. The sacrificial beaker was to be borne around the fire, and he who made the feast and was chieftain, was to bless the beaker as well as all the sacrificial meat.” The narrative continues to state that toasts were to be drunk. The first, to Odin, ‘for victory and power to the King’, the second to the gods Njordr and Freyr, ‘for good harvests and for peace’, and third, a beaker was to be drunk to the king himself, and several more to commemorate and remember the honoured dead. All of this points towards Anglo-Saxon and Viking Yule celebrations being sources of great excitement for the community, where sacrifices would be made, toasts would be raised, people would travel to visit families and communities, and the gods and the ancestors would be honoured with feasting and drinking. We shall now assess some of the other, central Christmas traditions that may have had pagan origins. As always, it is important to take into consideration that many traditions have, in the hundreds of years since, become associated with the following Christmas traditions. We are by no means saying that Christmas is an entirely pagan tradition. What is evident, however is that many of our longest held Christmas traditions do have their roots in pagan religion: The Yule Log (géolstocc) As part of the symbolic magic of Yuletide, a special oak or ash tree was selected, cut down and hauled into the hall by a group of men with great ceremony. This tree may have been carved with potent runes and symbols and decorated with evergreen branches like holly and mistletoe to represent the continuation of life throughout the winter months. This Yule Log was to provide warmth throughout the 12 days of Yule. As one end burned away, the remainder was moved into the fire. This tradition remains even into the modern era, and in certain areas of the United Kingdom it is still a tradition to begin the Yule fire with a remnant from a log that had been burned in the previous year’s festivities. Holly and Ivy (holen and ifig) The Anglo-Saxons decorated their dwellings with evergreens at Yuletide, which served as a reminder that the Earth merely sleeps during the winter. Holly was important because it retains its greenery through the winter months and is thus a symbol of summer life during the sterility of winter. It’s berries had an apotropaic (designed to avert evil) function. Prickly Holly was the male symbol of this greenery whereas Ivy was the feminine, the two often placed together as a symbol of fecundity at the dark end of the year. It may have been the case that the evergreen branches decorated around the home served as a hiding place for the spirits of nature to take refuge during the cold months when everything seemed to die, and were kept as a way to pay respects to the local spirits. Misteltoe (mistiltán) This magical protective evergreen plant was hung above doorways, with the belief that it would drive off evil spirits and ensure fertility. It was also prominent in the traditions of the Druids of Northern Europe, and whilst the origin of the custom of kissing under the mistletoe may date back to the Roman Saturnalia, the mistletoe plant has a special relationship to the Germanic celebration of Yule. In the Icelandic Eddas, written during the13th century,, Baldur, the Norse god of Light and the summer sun, saw his own death in a dream. Frigga, his mother and the goddess of beauty and love, compelled the elements, plants and animals and made them swear to promise to not kill Baldur - however, she neglected to extract this same promise from the young and insignificant mistletoe. When brought to the attention of Loki, he fashioned a poisoned dart from the mistletoe, and when the gods were partying, throwing all manner of objects at Baldur whom seemed invincible to all assault, tricked Baldur’s blind brother Hoder to shoot him with the mistletoe, thus killing Baldur, bringing the winter and his mother’s lamentation Later traditions say that Frigga’s tears over her son changed the red mistletoe berries white, and henceforth and forever mistletoe would bring love rather than death into the world. Any two people passing under mistletoe would exchange a kiss in memory of Baldur.
The Yule Boar The roasting of wild boar had been the most prestigious meat for a feast since the Bronze Age, as noted earlier in our section on the animal carcasses found at Stone Henge. Among the Anglo-Saxons the boar was sacrificed and then eaten in honour of Frea Ingwi, to whom the Boar was sacred, as part of the celebration of Yule in Germanic paganism. According to Norse sources, Ingwi is the Lord-of-Elves, and as such, the one who oversees the good, ancestral dead within the mound. There is some speculation that the barrow was intended as symbolic of the ‘womb’, where it was believed the dead could eventually be reborn from the Earth. This would suggest that Ingwi, while being God of Ancestors, is also God of rebirth and cyclical renewal. This corresponded to Freyr among the Norse, where the animal was termed the the sonargöltr or sónargöltr. Prior to being sacrificed, all would lay hands on bristles of the boar and swear solemn vows, a tradition known as heitstrenging among the Norse. The serving of a boar's head at modern banquets and particularly at Queen's College, Oxford may also be a reminiscence of the Yule boar-blót.
Toasts No Germanic feast would be complete without the drinking of toasts and the swearing of sacred oaths. A toast is a ritual in which alcoholic drink is taken to express honour or goodwill to the person mentioned in the verbal accompaniment of the act. The drinking of toasts may have developed from the earlier custom of 'libation', where the alcoholic drink was poured onto the ground as an offering to the gods. The canny men and women of Northern Europe instead realised it was much more effective to pour the strong drink down their throat. Ale was considered a gift of the fertility god, Frea Ing (maybe that has something to do with increased occurrences of fertilisation ‘rituals’ taking place under the influence? Food for thought…) and that the Anglo-Saxon word for ale; ‘ealu’ in Old West Saxon and ‘alu’ in Mercian, are cognate with the early Germanic charm word alu, composed of the runes Ansuz, Laguz, and Uruz. This probably means ‘God-Water-Strength’, which needs no explanation. The word ‘ale’ is also very similar to ‘hale’ and thus the well-known Anglo-Saxon greeting and toast “Wes þu hál !”, meaning “Be well!” The Old Norse word for a toast was ‘full’, which indicated that the horn one was drinking from was full before drinking the toast and (with a little luck) empty at the end of it. This word relates to the Old English ‘ful’, meaning a cup or beaker. As mentioned earlier, we see from the Saga of Hákon the Good that at the Yule feast, the first toast to be drunk was the Óðinsfull; to Óðinn, “for victory”, the second was to the gods Njörðr and Freyr "for good harvests and for peace". Needless to say, bragging and taking part in displays of valour were key elements of the Anglo-Saxon and Viking warrior elite, and as such it was also customary for anyone who felt it needful, to call out “Bragi’s full’ and before drinking, make a solemn vow in front of his peers, to accomplish a particular deed during the following year. This practice bears similarities to - and may be the origin of - modern New Years’ resolutions. The last formal toast, called the minni (meaning remembrance) was then called. All would then empty their horns in memory of fallen comrades and deceased family members. It is very likely that the pagan English had a similar ceremony, drinking to their ancestor-god Wóden for sige, to Eorþen Modor and Fréa Ing for gódes hærfestes and frið and for mynegung.
So there we have it. A brief history of the pagan origins of Yule. Unfortunately, due to space we’ve had to make this article a little tighter and haven’t been able to cover all sources and time periods, but we may very well revisit this topic in a future article. On a closing note, it is heartening to note that in fact, aside from some potential riotous behaviour from the männebünde, the original Yuletide was not much more than an excuse to get together with friends and family and engage in excessive eating and drinking to overcome the winter blues. If this is the case, then perhaps with the lack of Christian influence we are subject to in the Christmas celebrations of the modern 21st century, we haven’t so much ‘lost’ the true meaning of Christmas, but are actively rediscovering it.
Article by our good friend Wodenswearg, with accompanying quiz available now on the Descended from Odin app! God Jol all! Tarran www.descendedfromodin.co.uk/
I have to laugh at the Protestant attempt to "purify" Christianity by tossing out everything they regard as "Pagan." They think if they get rid of statues, saints, feast days, veneration of Mary and vestments they have "purified" Christianity. The Trinity, virgin birth, concept of the logos, incarnation, miracles, ascension into heaven, sitting at the right hand of the father deity and final judgment are all from much older religions. If they take all that away, what's left? As for hares (not rabbits) and eggs they were the harbingers of spring. Hares were considered sacred (see Wikipedia on the Three Hares en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_hares People didn't eat hares because it was thought it was granny witch in hare form.
i am not pagan myself but i find the various kinds of paganism really intressting also way more appealing then christianity or islam. or for that matter hinduism. I instead give myself to the 8 great ones. (the last part was a joke though)
Hi Ocean. IMO... The pagan festivals were always aligned with the solstices & equinoxes, so Yule is really New Year... Yule = Ul = End as in 'Ultimate'. Easter is Spring equinox, festival of fertility, same name as 'Oestrus' - hence the eggs & bunnies. It corresponds to passing through puberty in a human-life. While yule is death & (re)birth. Would you be up for having me on for a discussion? I'd like to discuss the Four Elements, as pagan science, and the original & correct theory of everything...
@@hangedman821 I kicked into gear about 5 years ago, when I decided to think the "big questions" through for myself... I gave up listening to other people, and went back to 1st principles of science. Ended up... in a very interesting place... The Four Elements is the real theory of everything, and I can prove it...
@@hangedman821 A kindred spirit. Nice. That's a great article... I have some slightly crappy vids on my channel, if ur interested. I've joined up God/Odin, the Dao, the Four, and the Seven... It's the universal-mechanism of creation... It's cool AF. :)
@@veritopian1823 Mate...I've been shouting this info from the roof tops for over a decade. I'd be well happy to look at your channel. I'm from up the road in Glasgow btw. Cheers! Here's a question for you before I go. Have you ever noticed the connection between the zodiac/planets and music?
Can someone please point me in the right direction about Polytheism among the jews? This struck me as fascinating since from the religion I grew up in, and likely many others, I was always told that from Adam and Eve there has been one God. I am imagining that the counter argument is that it was simply outside corruption that made the jews start believing in other gods, but I would love to read more about this
Believe or not. The Christianity is technically polytheistic.. kinda. Let me explain. The original Old Testament Bible was written by Jew for Jew. There’s a term the Jews referred to their God as. Elohim. Long story short, Elohim is the plural form of God. Meaning more than one image of God. It appears around 2,500 times in the original texts. (You can even find it in “The prince of Egypt” song Deliver us.) Before things get more confusing, please allow me to explicate on how many gods exist under the branch of Elohim. Elohim God created the Heavens and the earth from the first to the sixth day, creating Adam and Eve right before the seventh day. Elohim God says in Genesis chapter 1 verses 26-27 that they are creating mankind in their own image. They made Adam and Eve. Male and female. Because mankind were made in Elohim Gods image rectifies that there are two images of God. God the Father and also God the Mother. Even the book of revelation says the same thing. In revelation chapter 19 verse 7, there’s a wedding between the Lamb and the bride. Through some mated verses, we can confirm that Jesus is the lamb (John 1:29). Because Jesus is the Father(John 10:30, Isa 9:6-7, Lk 1:31-33) by simple context clues, we can determine through the Bible, whoever this Bride is, is by default our Fathers wife; therefore she is our Mother. And just as Jesus has a name, so does God the Mother. Revelation chapter 21 verses 9-10 tells us plainly that the Brides name is Jerusalem. And Galatian chapter 4 verse 26 quite candidly tells us that “ the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our Mother.” Clearly testifying and God Elohim. The existence of God the Father and God the Mother. Please let me know if this clears anything up or if I answered your question.
Maybe we need a better term for 'being' outside of modern hierarchical organized religions other than Pagen. We are still using Christian based POV and language. Humanry sound interesting! After listening to the philosophical teaching of native American elder, Tink Tinker, who pointed out the revisionism of Christian based encounters with older/different civilizations, where our mainstream narratives today have been written to serve an establishment. When a christian translates the tribal act of talking with ancestors, communing with the river, being the rain the wind the animal as we are all of the same energy of life the Christian vocabulary only sees worship, does not recognize the balance of duality of male and female balance in leaders ( sees god as above, the concept of one v. nothing is special we are all of the same, male and female do not exist without the other) Just the be aware of the forced datum of Christianity that label these way of being as beliefs, worship, being pagan or other. Churches were intentional built upon sacred sites of the older earth religions. I am keen to find paths to our common ancestors way of being that we have been separated from for nearly two millennia.I think we can relearn our per-christian ways of being from native American elders past down history of how their interaction with the Alie'nation (western christian settlers) and how they are still working to rebuild their community and space of being. I can see that there are similarities with the new world ways that existed in Europe before the purification. Give Heilung a listen it finds something in my soul that help me imagine old ways of being. Just a though, hope it helps!
Interesting view of Christmas trees. Speaking without having read any specific literature on this subject, I just don't see how it has any rooting in Christianity. I'm prepared to be corrected, but it surely hasn't got any derivation from the Bible. This is not to say it wasn't the Christians who brought the tree into the house and made it part of the Christian celebration , but I can't see how this isn't co-opting a pagan symbol and repurposing it - especially since you said that wreaths were pagan. It seems to me like this is Christians taking some ancient midwinter rite - maybe gifts being left under the biggest evergreen in the forest - and bringing it indoors, long after any original religious significance has been lost. Even the type of tree used - an evergreen - seems to go against what a Christian would do. As a symbol of life continuing in bleak conditions of winter, it works perfectly - but surely a Christian would use a tree that loses its leaves - that dies , only to come back to life in the Spring. I think you brought up a significant point with the whole culture/religion dynamic. My view is that the Christmas tree is an example of culture imprinting itself on the religion, rather than stemming from a core religious tenet.
The only reason why it would be considered Christian is because Christians are the ones that started doing it. It doesn't appear to be older than that, but it could be. It's not definitely Christian, but it's not definitely originally pagan either.
@@OceanKeltoi I agree that it was Christians who started the practice - I'm not sure that makes it a Christian practice (certainly not in the proprietory way some Christians view it). Because under that logic, the rampant commercialisation and winter sales frenzies would also be considered a Christian practice. I don't think bringing an actual tree inside was a pagan practice (certainly not a widespread one anyway). if it was I think it would have appeared in Britain with the arrival of the Angles and Saxons maybe - although it just doesn't make sense at all considering the logistical problems of chopping down a tree just to stick in your little roundhouse for a week or so. A massive pain in the arse - lets just stick a wreath up on the door.
@@bengreen171 If Christians starting it, propagating the practice, and associating it with their religious holiday doesn't make it a Christian practice, I honestly don't know what does. Sure it might be based on something that pagans did at one point. And that might be a safe assumption. But it's not one we can make conclusively, as to say that it's assuredly a pagan practice. The modern practice is very much a Christian behavior. But that doesn't mean that Pagans can't use it or anything. And yeah, the commercialization is largely Christian, though you could argue that it's more capitalist than anything else.
@@OceanKeltoi I think there's a subtle distinction - at least to my mind - between a thing that Christians attach to their religion, and a thing that necessarily comes from that religion. And I think that's precisely why pagans and atheists - and even Jews or Hindus can all do the Christmas things. The tree isn't attached to Jesus worship in the same way, I'm guessing, the wine and wafer eating is. The whole capitalist commercialism is a case in point. There are christians out there who consider capitalism to be a Christian concept (always strikes me as odd what Christians take pride in ownership of), but it has nothing to do with any core tenet of Christianity (beyond a few vague references to investing your "talents"). I see the point you're making here, and in some sense I agree with it. I suppose my position is that these "Christian things" don't happen in a vacuum - like you said, all those judaic ideas permeating into the proto-Christian identity.
@@OceanKeltoi as a relevant aside, I've just been watching Skylar Fiction talking about his upcoming debate with True Empiricism - "Was America founded on christian values". I must admit this causes me to react with a sharp intake of breath, as when one sees someone stub their toe, because I fear that Skylar is risking being wrong in the face of TE - and nobody should be put in that position. As I understand it, the original topic was whether the US's constitutional makeup is Christian, which brings up all that separation of Church and state stuff - easy victory you would think. But I don't think that you can deny that a country settled by Christians must have the values of those Christians shaping the culture. I left a comment on Skylar's video mentioning slavery and women's rights as a hint to how I think the only way to salvage anything from the question is to show that Christian values are not necessarily a "good" thing.
I think the Xmas tree was about the tree itself being a fir, which is native to Scandinavia. (IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY LOL) Obviously, we don’t know but that’s a whole rabbit hole you can do down, reader.
@@OceanKeltoi alright I just remember learning in some pagan groups that the Christmas tree is supposed to be like a secondary offering to landwights and whatnot.
The only thing i agree with the jehovahs on is that christmas is an insult to jesus who is really the first human socialist and should be honoured as such apart from maybe nabateans who seem to have refused to own land.
A tree decoration is mentioned in Jeremiah 10.... The Hebrew God of the Jewish people condemned a tree decoration and worship. This was well before Jesus and Christianity.
Doesn't the bible show an aspect of a pantheon just from the perspective of the followers of yahweh? Like even the first commandment gives me that vibe, no other gods before me. I mean I know people interpret it sometimes to mean do worship any other gods than me, but it could also be dont give to the other gods until you have given to me first. There are other examples but not right off the top of my head.
Christmas is easily explained....if you accept Jesus is the sun. Thomas Paine said this..... “The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun.” In the cycle of the year...the "OLD" sun dies on Dec 22nd....the winter solstice. This is the midnight/darkest time of the year. The word solstice means "sun stands still"....to the ancients....the sun was dead. However....it was only dead for 3 days....and then came back to life on Dec 25th.....born as a new "BABY" sun/Jesus. Ready to start his journey round "Galilee" (and what are the chances Galilee means "circuit"....the circuit of the year). This all happens in the sign of the goat (Capricorn when the sun is at the tropic of Capricorn)......this is why the ruler of darkness/Satan is often pictured as a goat....due to Capricorn. And as everybody with an interest in astrology knows....the sign of Capricorn is ruled by Saturn.......and that is the reason the Romans called this same winter solstice festival "Saturnalia". All religions,all myths,all fairytales are due to the cycles of nature and astrology in story form. One example before I toddle off. Sleeping beauty is a story about the earth falling asleep after the sign of Scorpio (Halloween time). This is why she is pricked in her finger (scorpio),she falls asleep (as the earth does in the northern hemisphere). She stays asleep until the prince arrives (the sun at the spring equinox),kisses her and she awakens (the earth starts to warm,growth and fecundity have returned). This is the real reason that JW's celebrate the memorial.....first they wait for the sun to arrive (March 21st in the sign of Aries the lamb/ram)....then they have to wait for his bride to arrive all dressed in white for the wedding (the full moon). This is the same story as the fairytale. And it's again all due to the cycles of nature......the sign of Aries is why Jesus is called the LAMB (ARIES) of God who takes away the sins (darkness/winter) of the world. It's also the reason that the Israelites put lambs blood on the door lintels at passover. (the real meaning of passover is the sun "passing over" the equator at the spring equinox,heading up to the tropic of Cancer.) It's all nature in stories.......
Why is it hard to understand people 1000s of years ago needed an explanation of existence. Is there not the smallest part of you that may think creation stories seem a little ehhh...I guess I'm one of those weird atheistic followers of asatru. 😆 No offense I respect everyone's right to believe in things. I never judge Christians, I guess I just don't understand how to have faith in something that I can't touch, see or feel. I definitely feel a connection and spirituality just can't swallow any kind of supernatural power.
Jeremiah in the bible states that cutting down of a tree and bringing it indoors and decorating it with silver and gold was the practice of the "working hands" of the heathens. Plain and simple, the "Christmas" tree IS PAGAN.
In finland christmass tree is very old tradition. And has something to do with pagans. Also. Easter eggs come from orthodox christianity where they symbolize the new berth of christ
If you've blocked yourself from having fun because everything fun is "pagan", it's time to change religions.
"Pagan" is a word invented by Christians
@@ketsune23 Actually it was invented by "pagan" Romans. Pagan by today's standards, but not by their own, since the word meant someone who dwells out on the countryside, with a slightly pejorative meaning, equivalent to today's "redneck".
Interestingly that makes it essentially the same as the word heathen; someone who lives out on the heath.
@@ketsune23 even if it was who cares. we use it now to refer to ourselves.
@@LiEnby because Polytheism sounds better
@@Isaxololt Hindus are polytheists, few people call them pagans.
When I came out of the broom closet and told my mother, she was horrified, angry, betrayed even. Though she never said it, I think she contemplated demanding I move out and leave. The next day, she went to have her hair did, (not a typo) and vented to her hairdresser about the experience. It was the hairdresser that convinced my mother of the value in my decision, that it wasn't inherently evil or even wrong. And that was all it took, suddenly I was her beloved child and accepted again. Sometimes you'll never say the right thing, sometimes nothing you do can convince someone else, but as long as accurate and positive information is spread rather than hateful bigotry, someone will be waiting in the wings to speak up for you, to have your back. So Ocean, I got your back. Thanks for covering mine.
I joined an Asatru community online and they sent me a certificate of membership and my mum found it and said that I'd joined a cult. Although she didn't bring it up again, it bothered me a bit
That’s great! Religion has divided many families. I took a hit leaving the church many years ago.
Im glad it worked out, she should have seen it from the jump.
As a subscriber to both of you I'm glad the atheist community is getting friendlier with our pagan community I'm also glad of how ocean represents pagans
As a Christian I hope we all can be friendlier to each other.
I have been subscribed to the both also. Not as long but watching/ listening to this it’s nice to see them be civil. I have listened to these two side like eat each other and no good conversation.
We atheists and pagans should stand together against the bullshit some Christains like to spew, I think.
@znrmstrng no. The person willing to help is my friend. The person willing to listen is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is likely a cunt. Better to look for actual friends than trauma bonds.
That being said, I’m a huge fan of both of these guys. Reminds me why I was an atheist and why I am a heathen now.
Pagans are closer to Christians than to Atheists.
I only just noticed that Jehova's Witnesses talk about us pagans in a VERY similar way to how the Nazis talked about jews, holy shit that made me glad it hasn't caught on outside their little cult.
I try to leave a person to their own path, in peace. I hope they will do the same. I believe we can’t gain peace and respect without living it also.
Peace
@@rodneydecormier1504 Shame. Genuine Cults will not leave stuff alone and live in peace.
A cult wants to bring people in and keep them in, they just want to scare everyone by saying stuff like "The ONLY way to reach heaven is by baptism through "Insert Church/org here"" and can become hostile to other ideas because a Cult knows that they can't be Tax excempt if they don't have the followers.
People will become hostile as well if they hear something that challenge their World and/or Spiritual views.
I'll just try to live my life, talk and learn. That's it.
Jehova's Witnesses: "All the fun stuff is pagan"
Pagans: Let me have some fun then.
Child abuse isn't fun so the witnesses have that covered.
Including Jehovah himself…more pagan and myth then ever.
I love both of you guys, I'm a pagan but I follow you and Jimmy as well
Suris is good too
I LOVE Ocean! I'm gonna be honest, I'm an atheist, and I used to think pretty negatively about people who are part of any spiritual belief system, but Ocean changed my mind about how I view pagans, and I don't want to be judgmental of folks who have religious beliefs anymore.
@Em Eye Kay Same. I actually rather like the pagans and polytheists.
Same Im trying to get over my christian trauma and be ok with progressive christians paganism helps me do that i feel if i remained atheist I never would get out of the angry atheist phase cause it felt so stagnit to me
I remember the time a girl I work with asked me what Pagans are. I was very thrown off by her response.
I m a former christian and now atheist. I really enjoy seeing multiple people express their world view. I wish all religions could come together and talk about their believes without acting up. Especially the christians and atheists have the tendency to do that.
I agree. There's something like a spiritual territory battle going on between Christians and atheists. As if us weak and mortal hunans could lord it over the worlds beyond without completely cocking it up. I think we could learn from the Native Americans: don't try to take possession of anything beyond your power to control.
In addition to which, a good number of atheists dismiss the idea of a spiritual world as impossible and in violation of "pure" reason. They subsequently conclude that anything "spiritual" is not proper and correct atheism and should be avoided at all costs.
Every religion has it’s rabble rousers. I’m pagan and pretty easy going, but there are definitely some angry radicals in the mix.
@Hans Hanzo Honestly my frustration with people like the Golden One have led me into making videos. Fuckin hate that guy.
I love Owen (Telltale) and Ocean so much that I am going to watch this video completely again to support Ocean on this channel
Same
Half of my fav youtubers are either pagan or atheist with a few cultural/progressive christians.
This is an occasional hate comment! :)
I dig it.
Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Pelagius the Wise?
Not from a jedi
I thought not, it's not a story the Catholics would tell you...
When I got the notification I was so confused thinking "waiiit, I already watched this" Anyway, watching it again because its interesting
I love hearing Owen's voice. I follow his channel but I haven't listened to him in awhile.
Some of his videos use the same clips sometimes and it got a little annoying after a bit but still really like owen's channel
I find people get scared when you say you aren't Protetyzing because most people don't trust it to be true. So many of those Christians are trying to convert.....same for the majority of the active atheists. Thank you for doing this and being so well-spoken. It was amazing to see someone talk publically about paganism that wasn't a fluff bunny.
Just because atheists criticize religion doesnt mean theyre trying to convert. Its more of a defe sive posture because we've been bombarded with religion as "normative" our whole life.
Fluff bunnies are nice: soft, fluffy, nice.
I've been wondering through agnosticism for a few years now after losing my faith in christianity. Both of your channels have been benenficial to my journey and it's great to see you both discuss things
Do you think there are more heathens than eclectic pagans? I would think that would be the second biggest group of people.
Great interview, love both your channels ❤️
There’s probably more eclectics. But I find eclectics are often not polytheists. Many are, but many are not.
@@OceanKeltoi would mixing pantheons (syncretism) count as eclectic?
@@foxmccloud8960 I think it would be eclectic until it became more traditional then it would become syncretic.
I adore how the atheist and pagan communities have come together . I think its a really healthy thing, atheists being exposed to the fact that there are more than 2 religions and pagans being exposed to rationale and how to believe healthily without all the traps that many spiritual (and esspecially mono-theisitic people) fall into. its really great as someone who was an atheist for a long time and is now pagan
ive been watching telltale for y e a r s. just found Ocean a few days ago and i was so happy to see he did a video with telltale!
This conversation is wonderfully encouraging! I’ve been on a path, listening to my own inner voice as well! I was also raised Christian (LDS). I would whole heartedly love to join in the conversation of polytheism and the study of this...idk...rise? In awareness? I feel insecure because of my lack of education, but I am eager to learn about ALL OF IT. The study of humans and magical thinking, that sense of something that has been, and even why this still exists. I am a student of the why. Always. I’m a big fan of challenging ones gods, and I believe that these elongated stories have deified humans who performed great feats. And those stories have been extrapolated, like the game of telephone 🤣 Jesus, Odin, Ragnar, we in the present day can’t interact with them, but their story persists. Why? These are my thoughts and love and would love discussing this! Anyway, thank you Ocean. You have a friend and ally within me. 🥰
pagans are honestly so cool. please keep doing your thing
My two favs found a collab!!!!!!! Just what I needed today.
Doing* I was excited
Wanna say thank you making these videos. I have been Norse-curious for a long time, but all the online sources were immediately on some video game or show... This is helpful in finding articles/sources to look up/read.
What I got from this: Pagans invented fun.
Yes
Even though this is a joke, and think it’s actually technically correct. Before Christian’s came along, everyone was pagan, and fun definitely predates Christianity.
I know this is an older video but I've always been an telltale fan and I just found this channel. I LOVE this collaboration
Hi i am Christian but i quite enjoy listening to other opinions and things it's very interesting.
Thanks for sharing your point of view i am always open to learning more .
Great video! Very thought provoking. Ocean's discussions have definitely helped me open up to my father about my own paganism. Surprisingly, Dad was quite happy to hear I've left atheism behind. Said he'd much rather me be pagan than atheist lol!
some theories say that the easter bunny is based on the greek mythos of orion, that the bunny lepus was originally a bird who was turned into a bunny, by Artemis or Eostara to be able to save herself (lepus) from the hunter Orion. and she was asked by the godess if she liked being a bunny, she said that she did, but that she missed the feeling of laying eggs, so she was aloud by the godesse that once a year, in the spring, be able to lay eggs.
I always celebrate Yule with a dinner among friends or family followed by going to my outdoor alter with a bonfire, (yule log) exchanging gifts and celebrate the rebirth of the Great horned God & giving a food offering since he was a hunter.
Hi Ocean, would love to have you do a full video on "Atheo-paganry". I'd love to hear your description and objections laid out. Since being introduced to the concept (by you incidentally) I've become fascinated by the concept. Many of my best friends and the people I look up to are Pagan, and I have a deep fascination with the stories that can only really be described properly as "spiritual", however I'm not convinced of the literal existence of powerful immaterial beings and find the idea suspect because it is fundamentally unfalsifiable. Thanks as always for what you do!
P.S. It's tough having this conversation because both atheists and pagans alike generally act like you've grown a second head for even broaching the topic. I got banned from r/pagan for just using the term, so any help would be appreciated.
capitalistraven I have been thinking heavily about this and honestly I don’t even know if a religion like my belief exists but I believe the Gods were once active here on earth but due to the laws of physics and the expansion of the universe they had to move on and we have just lost all knowledge given by superior beings who introduced consciousness into humans.
I think the question you have to ask yourself is whether there is actually any difference between belief in literal, powerful immaterial beings and belief in literal, powerful immaterial ideals. I think we all agree that ideals exist - and as far as I can see all a god is, is the personification of that ideal. For me, there is no difference.
Atheo- pagans not being considered truly pagan/atheist really irks me. I think it’s plan willful ignorance to claim they don’t exist after being taught about what it is.
Honestly at first I was like little long but then I got lost in the talk and loved .. and then when you said we gotta wrap it I was dang it .. you both were gonna cover some deep stuff I know it.. looking out for next one. Be safe brothers
This is a very interesting discussion. Thanks for the information.
The story of Noah is obviously out of the Epic of Gilgamesh
I think that it is a little more insidious. I think the witnesses ban these common practices, so that their members will feel further isolated from the culture around them, and thus feel more trapped if they consider leaving. Plus, Christmas has become a time of fellowship for all mankind, and not just Christians, Atheists celebrate Christmas, pagans with Christian or Atheist families celebrate Christmas, people who are not particularly religious or the sort celebrate Christmas, it is something that flies in the face of the idea "only we are your community" when such disparate people come together in community on a holiday. Christmas has become more than a religious holiday, it is a holiday around family, community, good will to all mankind, and if you are part of a high control group, you can not have that. The very idea of it becomes a threat to your control. You make people feel like Aliens in the outside culture, then they will think twice about leaving the one they are told they are welcome in.
As an Atheo-Pagan myself, my perspective (this is only my perspective, I've yet to meet another atheo-pagan with these views and do not claim to speak for them) on the Gods is that they are archetypes originating from our inner psyche, as a piece of evidence for this hypothesis, the "hieroglyphics" which, etymologically originates from the Greek for "Divine Words," a claque from the Egyptian Mdw Ntr, "The God's Word," are believed by some today to have been literally viewed as the words of the Gods, as in, whenever you read something, you hear a voice in your head reading for you, to the Kemetic faith, this may have actually been viewed as the Gods discussing with them. I also look at the Personal Gods worshiped in the fertile crescent who were worshiped below the Gods of the Kingdom who were said to have founded their Kingdoms along side their human founders, (compared to Christianity, it's like how many Christians have the idea of personal Guardian Angels under Yahweh), I view this as evidence of the Gods originating from our personal internal psyche, each individual's thoughts, morals, ethics, and values are in their own sense Gods and worthy of individual and voluntary veneration (to force veneration or worship of a God, real or axiomatic, is to commit evil). This, I believe, is not simply a kind of God, but what the Gods actually are. I also view it with respect for nature, economy, and technology, external requirements for our species health and well being, as well as the well being of our ecological environment. Ultimately, I personally in my own life create metaphorical personified archetypes of rational axioms and venerate them, I pray, preform rituals, make minor sacrifices, and strive to improve myself based on these axioms and do my best to aid others in need of help in order to live up to a standard of what I view as right. As for if Gods do or do not exist, I am firmly agnostic, I do not believe they do, but perhaps they do, that said, I believe it may be possible to create reflections of the Gods in our personal life through our actions and perhaps in the future through building, there's a hyperstitional aspect to my belief there, Gods themselves being somewhat of a hyperstition, people will seek to build Gods as they have for all time.
I know a Christian lady and she tried to tell me that native Americans worshipped Jesus before the white man came here I tried to tell her this just isn't true and she got very nasty with me about this where does this weird idea come from? I need more info if there is any at all
The book of Mormon
Sorry I couldn't help but laugh at how many tangents had to be edited out while Ocean was talking - how long was this originally?? Lol, I say this with love. Great video!
Only a couple minutes were removed, if that. Telltale kept almost all of the interview intact.
@@OceanKeltoi Impressive! I was just teasing, I'm sure would have enjoyed a longer version as well!
Why didn't I know about this? How'd I miss it? Stupid subbox not working. Enjoyed it a lot.
As a heathen i know that we always starts in the christianity. But something brings us to this difficult "pagan" side of the history.
I think "pegan" is so hard to explain as it's a non organized religion. Most people, (and no offense but mostly chirstians and atheists, but all people) can't seem to wrapped their head around a non organized religion. They don't understand not having hard "Do this, not that, we believe this" belief system. I know with things like youtube, insta, really social media, there seems like a lot of "this is how you do it" but it's very bases of the religion is more about your personal feelings/understanding so that can only say "this how I do it."
29:53 - in judaism is more of a religious custom from what i can remember that only the bride, she gets the ring w the proper blessing/s from her husband to be, so they dont exchange rings literally... some may choose to exchange rings but it comes usually without a blessing that's specifically for that, lol ... or&/outside the ritual
"Standard cookie cutter mold's" 😂🤣😂
36:39 good stuff Ocean.
Great video! I listened to “American God’s” by Neil Gaiman which centers on Odin and provided some backstories of other deities. How many have read this book?
One of my favorite books to be honest
I love that book
I think these cults ban fun stuff to further bind you into their structures. If something good is happening to you, it has to come from the cult. Getting gifts on your birthday just for being born would mean you had some intrinsic value and thus would be worth too much as to just bow down to your cult leader. It would be even worse if you had fun with people outside the cult because then you might start to think that not every outsider is a spawn of Satan deserving of punishment.
The last supper was help during the passover festival
I haven't been a very good steward of the wyrd... I'll improve.
Hey I have a question ocean. So paganism sorta has been booming these recent years but everyone is worshiping the Norse gods which is odd to me because I feel like besides christianity, that the greek pantheon is most well known. What's your opinion?
Not sure exactly why that is. Though that's definitely an interesting element to the recent rise of paganism.
Probably an unpopular opinion but I believe Norse has gained the lost traction because it fits most comfortably in the capitalist, oligarchical, and aggressive society we have created. I follow the Greek pantheon though I believe all pagan religions were in contact with the same gods. The Greeks were deeply philosophical and philosophy is not exactly a popular school of thought in this day and age.
@@stiletteleray1326 But you could also argue that the greek gods would fit our increasingly hedonistic, excessive society better. Norse culture was built on a caste system of rulers, farmers/tradesmen, and slaves. You could look at todays upper, middle, and lower class as a reflection of this. Structurally we are probably more norse, but behaviorally we are probably more greek.
Well one explanation is, that we know so much about the Greek gods. There isnt that much room to be creative about it. But the Norse gods, and the cult around them is pretty much a blank sheet. Its easier to construct a modern religion around them.
@@hoegild1 I am not sure the word "cult" is correct in this context. The Norse Religion is far older than christianity for one, and does include the belief in gods /supreme beings. One short definition of the difference between a religion and cult: ... A cult is a new religious movement. A religion is a formal organised body who generally meet various criteria such as: Belief in some kind of supreme being or principle.
Per the old testament Jeremiah 10:3 quotes the quoting down of trees and bringing it in to be decorated with silver and gold. You can pick your version. Some gets a little more descriptive than others about it. So the Jewish people saw it as a pagan rite in the old testament. But Christianity as we know it today is really a bunch of Pagan beliefs relabelled under a founder of a denominations personal spiritual beliefs/practices as being acceptable or not.
In finland christmass tree is very old tradition. And has something to do with pagans. Also. Easter eggs come from orthodox christianity where they symbolize the new berth of christ
Actually, comparing my community’s Serbian Orthodox faith, I know a lot of people in the community, I’d say a large minority, are opposed to celebrating pagan and heretical festivals, so Gregorian calendar Christmas and Santa stuff beyond anything directly involved to st Nicholas is banned in some households, a lot of kids, though definitely not the majority, were not allowed to trick or treat because it’s demonic and pagan, I know a lot of families came to accept western Christmas celebrations and Halloween over time
Well considering how many weird practices that we have from germanic Christianity, there’s a good chance it’s local pagan practices, and some of them have totally blown up
Easter is actually ancient sumarian and a western mispronunciation of Ester an ancient goddess from ancient Syria
"Thats not Pagan at all" Ocean be rosting it.
🎅🤲🥨 TLDR
We’ve all heard it before.
“BuT ChRiStMaS iS a PaGaN fEsTiVaL!”
Well, no. But also, yes. It would not be unfair to argue that at some point in the history of these isles, the tradition of Yule was subsumed into the Christian Christmas. However, there is also a fair amount of evidence that points towards Christmas absorbing a fair amount of pagan traditions. Several of the traditions that we take for granted today have their origins deep in the mists of time, many years prior to the Christianisation of Northern Europe.
In this article, we shall attempt to shed some light upon the pagan midwinter feast known as Yule, beginning with its murky origins in the Stone Age, moving through the Bronze Age and into the Anglo-Saxon and Viking era before having a look at modern Yule celebrations.
At this time of year, families from across the country would ordinarily be travelling home for Christmas, preparing to spend their winter break indulging in food, drink and good cheer. The days are short, the nights are long, and Christmas provides us with the opportunity to reconnect, recharge and celebrate with those that we love most.
For humans, the mid-winter celebration has carried significant religious and cultural connotations. In our current era, beset as we are on all sides by the conveniences of modernity, it is easy to overlook the primal functions provided by these gatherings. For our not-so-distant ancestors the mid-winter celebration was one of the most important dates in the calendar. To come together as a family, tribe, and community in the darkest, coldest part of the year to share in festivities and feasting was an important bonding process for human societies in the past. This pagan mid-winter festival has long been linked with the gods and goddesses of Northern Europe, specifically with the cult of Woden/Odin and the Wild Hunt, though to a lesser extent with the Anglo-Saxon fertility god Fréa Ing and the thunder god, Þunor. It is almost certain that this time of year was sacred across much of the Germanic speaking cultures of Northern Europe. During the early medieval period, this time of celebration was referred to as Yule. Yule began its life as the mid-winter festival celebrated by the people of Northern Europe during Late Antiquity and the early medieval period.
In the treatise, ‘The Reckoning of Time’, written by the Northumbrian monk Bede, he refers to the Roman months of December and January as Ærra Géola (Before Yule), and Æftera Géola (After Yule). The implication in Bede’s writing is that Géola, the Old English term for Yule, was the name for the winter solstice. Æftera Geola, roughly corresponds with modern January. The first day of Æftera Geola was the day of midwinter, the New Year for this time, but nowadays falls on the 25th December. Midwinter day begins four days after the winter solstice. Yule began from sunrise and brought an end to the old year and a beginning to the first day of the new year. There followed twelve days of celebration of the passing of midwinter, the return of the sun and the renewal of life. This holiday lasted until the twelfth night of Æftera Geola (now 6th January). Hence the Yule and New Year celebrations were once one and the same. Bede also mentions that the new year began on Módraniht , “Mothers' Night”, the evening of the 25th of December. On this night, it is believed that the Anglo- Saxons honoured the Ídisi, female protective spirits. Bede, being the holy man of God that he is, is very reticent to expand upon the all-night activities and celebrations of Módraniht, and it may well be that the activities taking place during this night were those which ‘celebrated’ fertility.
In any case, the etymology of Yule also points to its origins being much earlier that the medieval period. The word Yule is the modern English evolution of the Anglian Old English words géol and géola or géoli, the former of which indicates the 12-day festival of Yule and the latter indicating the entire month. Both words are thought to be derived from the Common Germanic root word jehwlan and are cognates to the Gothic fruma jiuleis (dating back to the 4th century AD) and Old Norse jól, (Danish and Swedish jul and Norwegian jul or jol).
Despite these linguistic similarities, however, the actual origin of the term Yule remains controversial amongst scholars. Though there have been some attempts to link Yule with the term “wheel”, these arguments are linguistically flawed, and speculative attempts have been made to find Indo-European cognates outside of the Germanic group, but without much progress. The most likely theoryis that ‘yule’ merely means ‘a time of revelry’. This is related to the Old English verbs gylian / giellan - meaning to yell or to shout, whilst the uncommon Old English word gýlan, means ‘to make merry, keep festival’. If we are to look across the waters to our cousins in Scandinavia, we can see more evidence for this interpretation - in Old Norse poetry, the word is often employed as a synonym for feast - such as in the kenning hugins jól, the raven’s feast. It’s pre-Christian context is also developed primarily in the Old Norse sources - two of the many names of Odin are directly related to the festival of Yule, where he is known as the jólfaðr, the ‘Yule father’ and jólnir, the ‘Yule one’, whilst in the 12th century source Ágrip af Nóregskonungasögum it is explicitly stated that the name of Christmas, iol, comes from the name of Odin, iolne.
But you didn’t come to read this article to learn about the history of words, did you?
The Pagan mid-winter Feast
The history of Yule is a long and complex one, so here we shall attempt to break it down into manageable chunks. The pagan festival of Yule was in effect, a midwinter feast. Although the specific dating of the feast is a matter of debate, it undoubtedly had a pronounced religious character and had existed in one form or another for millennia before the Anglo-Saxon and Viking Age.
During the West European Stone Age and the Bronze Age, the mid-winter sacrifice and feast functioned as an element of the cult of the dead, and was centred around the veneration of ancestors and a celebration of the return of the sun.
Evidence from Stonehenge and other ritual sites across the country suggests that from around 2500BC, people were travelling and herding animals from across the country in order to take part in the feasts hosted there. Analysis of the 38,000 discarded animal bones at Stonehenge shows that 90% of the bones and teeth come from pigs, and the rest primarily from cattle. Many still had meat attached to them when they were discarded, suggesting that there was more than enough food to go around. Some of the bones have cut-marks made by flint tools, suggesting that beef was cut into pieces. Burnt foot bones suggest that pigs were roasted over open fires. Many of the pigs had been killed at around nine months old, and since the piglets were most probably born in the spring, they were therefore all being slaughtered at midwinter. The conclusion is that people were almost certainly gathering together in large numbers, probably all coming together at a single site in order to take part in larger feasts and communal gatherings at this time of year. This is backed up by stable isotope analysis, which has shown us that some of the animals which were slaughtered came from as far away as Scotland and Wales, indicating that at the very least, people and animals were travelling substantial distances to attend these celebrations.
Whilst it would be disingenuous to propose that there is a clear continuation from the Stone Age into the Anglo-Saxon and Viking Age, it is uncertain to what extent that the Germanic Yule feast continued to function as part of the cult of the dead and the veneration of ancestors. The close association with the Wild Hunt would seem to imply that, even if there was no clear continuation, the mid-winter feast still served a similar purpose, and that by the of the Anglo-Saxon and Viking Age, there were long established traditions which would have been repeated every year, including travelling to celebrate the solstice with a wider network of associates and friends. This would have served the purpose of strengthening social ties between friends and allies, and as something to look forward to after the hard manual labour of farming in the autumn and the cold and darkness of the winter.
It should also be noted that Yule is markedly distinct from the ancient Roman festival of Saturnalia, which was held towards the end of December around the time of the Winter Solstice and continued to be a popular festival well into the fourth century C.E. Some of customs involved with Saturnalia, such as gift-giving and partying, were absorbed by the seasonal celebrations surrounding Christmas and the New Year as Christianity spread through the Roman Empire. During that time, under the Julian calendar, December 25th was the winter solstice and was celebrated as the Dies Natalis of Sol Invictus, the ‘Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun’. This marked the shortest day of the year and heralded the beginning of the new year. Nowadays, most people use the Gregorian Calendar, which means that the solstice falls upon the 21st or 22nd of December.
The first attestations to a purely Germanic Yule appear in 4th century Gothic language in the name of the month fruma jiuleis, and as previously mentioned, in the 8th century from the Northumbrian historian Bede. The events of the Germanic Yule feast were most likely held around midwinter and would have involved the participants feasting, drinking, making sacrifices and swearing oaths - continuing age old customs which could probably have dated back as far as the Bronze Age, and still feature in Christmas festivities even to this day.
For the Anglo-Saxons, the three main gods - Woden, Þunor and Ing - would have had the strongest association with Yuletide, and it is likely that for these early English people, the Yule feast would have still been a time for the cult of the honoured ancestral dead. This is where the ancient belief of the ‘Wild Hunt’ - a group of ghostly riders, beasts, and fallen warriors who would tear across the winter skies, led by Woden/Odin himself - comes into play.
As modern scholars theorise wildly around the nature of Odin, with some arguing that he had always been a god of kings, royalty and the aristocracy, who supplanted Tiwaz (Tyr) as the supreme sky god, whilst others contended that he was in fact the god of landless men and the Männerbünde . If we were to accept the theory of Óðinn as a deity central to landless, itinerant wanderers in a society that glorified violence and conflict, it would be important to consider how this had an impact upon the idea of the Yule feast.
In her extensive thesis on Óðinn, Kris Kershaw proposes an argument for the existence of what she terms the ‘Indo-Germanic Männerbünde’. Her thesis outlines the root and existence of a cultic warrior brotherhood that existed in ancient Germania, Scandinavia and which had parallels across the entirety of Europe, into Iran and beyond the Indus, all sharing elements of a once common Indo-European origin. She asserts that the männerbünde - the warriors dedicated to Odin - spent their time away from the tribe, only returning to their communities for the midwinter feast of Yule, dedicated of course to Óðinn in order to ‘steal’ beer and food. This was a blessing to both the village and the tribe, and the warriors were to be given their due reverence - if not, they were to pull doors and roofs off the houses or reduce it to rubble.
The anti-social activities of the cultic warriors of Kershaw’s männebünde are similar to the way that the Norse sagas depict berserkers and ulfheðnar. These individuals, for most of the year, exist outside of the bounds of regular society. The return to the tribe or settlement to cause havoc, get drunk, and to party is not too outlandish a theory - especially if the feast is dedicated to their patron god. In her thesis, Kershaw states that this concept of the cultic warrior band can be seen as analogous to the Wild Hunt, and can be explained through examining the actual practices of the cult of Wodan.
Seeing the Wild Hunt was originally thought to be a premonition of a catastrophe such as war or disease, or potentially even the death of the one witnessing it. It was also believed that those that encountered the Hunt may be abducted to the underworld or their spirits pulled away in their sleep to join them. The Wild Hunt is a ghostly host of beasts, wolves and men, but by far its most important aspect was the einherjar; those who had died and gone to Valhalla now tear across the night sky with Odin during his frantic chase. These einherjar of folklore and mythology have their own living counterparts, in the form of the männebünde, bands of ecstatic warriors,, young men of flesh and blood whom through costume and religious ecstasy, return home to celebrate in cultic union with dead warriors of their past. It may be that this was some form of religious ceremony in itself, and the return of the männebünde for the Yule feast was a significant part of the celebrations. However, the evidence for the männerbünde theory, is scarce, (and should be taken with a pinch of salt) and its advocates acknowledge that there is not a great deal of evidence for the existence of these independent warrior bands prior to or during the Viking Age, but defend their position by arguing that the academic model they provide is useful. In any case, the lack of sources concerning Old Norse religion should ‘warn us against the exaggerated use of argumenta ex silento.’
What we do know is that , feasting and drinking played a key part in Germanic celebrations, and whether or not the männebünde theory is an accurate one, it is not hard to imagine that the winter solstice would be seen as a wonderful occasion for warriors to return to their communities, visit their families, get incredibly drunk, honour the gods and cause havoc with their drunken shenanigans. Indeed, one must only take a walk around the bars of our own cities in the weeks leading up to Christmas to see drunken groups causing chaos, it is not too far-fetched a theory to imagine that the same would happen leading up to the midwinter celebrations of our ancestors.
It is through these Yule celebrations, where the belief that the veil between the world of the living and the dead was thinner, that the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings may have believed that their honoured dead were present at the Yule feast, and thus it was customary for an extra place to be laid at the table. At Yule, the spirits of the ancestors were thought to be permitted to return to the land of the living. As such they were welcomed back into the home to visit their kin and partake of the food and drink.
Despite these tantalising glimpses, the sources for the early periods are scant and difficult to interpret, and the most important written records we have of Yule celebrations in a pre-Christian context comes from Old Norse literature. In the Saga of Hákon the Good, who reigned during the 10th century, King Hákon of Norway is credited with both the Christianisation of Norway and the rescheduling of Yule to coincide with the Christian celebrations that were being held at the time. As a Christian arriving in pagan Norway, Hákon hides his beliefs in order to receive the help of the great chieftains. In time he passes laws establishing that Yule celebrations are to take place at the same time as Christian Christmas, and ‘at that time, everyone was to have ale for the celebration, with a measure of grain’.
Over time, Hákon’s popularity increased and he felt comfortable bringing bishops and priests over the North Sea from England, leading to many people converting Christianity and stop making sacrifices at the Yule gatherings. However, the pagan traditions were described as thus:
“It was ancient custom that when sacrifice was to be made, all farmers were to come to the heathen temple and bring along with them the food they needed while the feast lasted. At this feast all were to take part of the drinking of ale. All kinds of livestock were killed in connection with it, horses also; and all the blood from them was called hlaut [sacrificial blood], and hlautbolli, the vessel holding the blood; and hlautteinar, the sacrificial twigs [aspergills]. These were fashioned like sprinklers, and with them were to be smeared all over with blood the pedestals of the idols and also the walls of the temple within and without; and likewise the men present were to be sprinkled with blood. But the meat of the animals was to be boiled and served as food at the banquet. Fires were to be lighted in the middle of the temple floor, and kettles hung over the fires. The sacrificial beaker was to be borne around the fire, and he who made the feast and was chieftain, was to bless the beaker as well as all the sacrificial meat.”
The narrative continues to state that toasts were to be drunk. The first, to Odin, ‘for victory and power to the King’, the second to the gods Njordr and Freyr, ‘for good harvests and for peace’, and third, a beaker was to be drunk to the king himself, and several more to commemorate and remember the honoured dead.
All of this points towards Anglo-Saxon and Viking Yule celebrations being sources of great excitement for the community, where sacrifices would be made, toasts would be raised, people would travel to visit families and communities, and the gods and the ancestors would be honoured with feasting and drinking. We shall now assess some of the other, central Christmas traditions that may have had pagan origins. As always, it is important to take into consideration that many traditions have, in the hundreds of years since, become associated with the following Christmas traditions. We are by no means saying that Christmas is an entirely pagan tradition. What is evident, however is that many of our longest held Christmas traditions do have their roots in pagan religion:
The Yule Log (géolstocc)
As part of the symbolic magic of Yuletide, a special oak or ash tree was selected, cut down and hauled into the hall by a group of men with great ceremony. This tree may have been carved with potent runes and symbols and decorated with evergreen branches like holly and mistletoe to represent the continuation of life throughout the winter months. This Yule Log was to provide warmth throughout the 12 days of Yule. As one end burned away, the remainder was moved into the fire. This tradition remains even into the modern era, and in certain areas of the United Kingdom it is still a tradition to begin the Yule fire with a remnant from a log that had been burned in the previous year’s festivities.
Holly and Ivy (holen and ifig)
The Anglo-Saxons decorated their dwellings with evergreens at Yuletide, which served as a reminder that the Earth merely sleeps during the winter. Holly was important because it retains its greenery through the winter months and is thus a symbol of summer life during the sterility of winter. It’s berries had an apotropaic (designed to avert evil) function. Prickly Holly was the male symbol of this greenery whereas Ivy was the feminine, the two often placed together as a symbol of fecundity at the dark end of the year. It may have been the case that the evergreen branches decorated around the home served as a hiding place for the spirits of nature to take refuge during the cold months when everything seemed to die, and were kept as a way to pay respects to the local spirits.
Misteltoe (mistiltán)
This magical protective evergreen plant was hung above doorways, with the belief that it would drive off evil spirits and ensure fertility. It was also prominent in the traditions of the Druids of Northern Europe, and whilst the origin of the custom of kissing under the mistletoe may date back to the Roman Saturnalia, the mistletoe plant has a special relationship to the Germanic celebration of Yule. In the Icelandic Eddas, written during the13th century,, Baldur, the Norse god of Light and the summer sun, saw his own death in a dream. Frigga, his mother and the goddess of beauty and love, compelled the elements, plants and animals and made them swear to promise to not kill Baldur - however, she neglected to extract this same promise from the young and insignificant mistletoe. When brought to the attention of Loki, he fashioned a poisoned dart from the mistletoe, and when the gods were partying, throwing all manner of objects at Baldur whom seemed invincible to all assault, tricked Baldur’s blind brother Hoder to shoot him with the mistletoe, thus killing Baldur, bringing the winter and his mother’s lamentation
Later traditions say that Frigga’s tears over her son changed the red mistletoe berries white, and henceforth and forever mistletoe would bring love rather than death into the world. Any two people passing under mistletoe would exchange a kiss in memory of Baldur.
The Yule Boar
The roasting of wild boar had been the most prestigious meat for a feast since the Bronze Age, as noted earlier in our section on the animal carcasses found at Stone Henge. Among the Anglo-Saxons the boar was sacrificed and then eaten in honour of Frea Ingwi, to whom the Boar was sacred, as part of the celebration of Yule in Germanic paganism. According to Norse sources, Ingwi is the Lord-of-Elves, and as such, the one who oversees the good, ancestral dead within the mound. There is some speculation that the barrow was intended as symbolic of the ‘womb’, where it was believed the dead could eventually be reborn from the Earth. This would suggest that Ingwi, while being God of Ancestors, is also God of rebirth and cyclical renewal. This corresponded to Freyr among the Norse, where the animal was termed the the sonargöltr or sónargöltr.
Prior to being sacrificed, all would lay hands on bristles of the boar and swear solemn vows, a tradition known as heitstrenging among the Norse. The serving of a boar's head at modern banquets and particularly at Queen's College, Oxford may also be a reminiscence of the Yule boar-blót.
Toasts
No Germanic feast would be complete without the drinking of toasts and the swearing of sacred oaths. A toast is a ritual in which alcoholic drink is taken to express honour or goodwill to the person mentioned in the verbal accompaniment of the act. The drinking of toasts may have developed from the earlier custom of 'libation', where the alcoholic drink was poured onto the ground as an offering to the gods. The canny men and women of Northern Europe instead realised it was much more effective to pour the strong drink down their throat.
Ale was considered a gift of the fertility god, Frea Ing (maybe that has something to do with increased occurrences of fertilisation ‘rituals’ taking place under the influence? Food for thought…) and that the Anglo-Saxon word for ale; ‘ealu’ in Old West Saxon and ‘alu’ in Mercian, are cognate with the early Germanic charm word alu, composed of the runes Ansuz, Laguz, and Uruz. This probably means ‘God-Water-Strength’, which needs no explanation. The word ‘ale’ is also very similar to ‘hale’ and thus the well-known Anglo-Saxon greeting and toast “Wes þu hál !”, meaning “Be well!”
The Old Norse word for a toast was ‘full’, which indicated that the horn one was drinking from was full before drinking the toast and (with a little luck) empty at the end of it. This word relates to the Old English ‘ful’, meaning a cup or beaker. As mentioned earlier, we see from the Saga of Hákon the Good that at the Yule feast, the first toast to be drunk was the Óðinsfull; to Óðinn, “for victory”, the second was to the gods Njörðr and Freyr "for good harvests and for peace".
Needless to say, bragging and taking part in displays of valour were key elements of the Anglo-Saxon and Viking warrior elite, and as such it was also customary for anyone who felt it needful, to call out “Bragi’s full’ and before drinking, make a solemn vow in front of his peers, to accomplish a particular deed during the following year. This practice bears similarities to - and may be the origin of - modern New Years’ resolutions.
The last formal toast, called the minni (meaning remembrance) was then called. All would then empty their horns in memory of fallen comrades and deceased family members.
It is very likely that the pagan English had a similar ceremony, drinking to their ancestor-god Wóden for sige, to Eorþen Modor and Fréa Ing for gódes hærfestes and frið and for mynegung.
So there we have it. A brief history of the pagan origins of Yule. Unfortunately, due to space we’ve had to make this article a little tighter and haven’t been able to cover all sources and time periods, but we may very well revisit this topic in a future article. On a closing note, it is heartening to note that in fact, aside from some potential riotous behaviour from the männebünde, the original Yuletide was not much more than an excuse to get together with friends and family and engage in excessive eating and drinking to overcome the winter blues. If this is the case, then perhaps with the lack of Christian influence we are subject to in the Christmas celebrations of the modern 21st century, we haven’t so much ‘lost’ the true meaning of Christmas, but are actively rediscovering it.
Article by our good friend Wodenswearg, with accompanying quiz available now on the Descended from Odin app! God Jol all!
Tarran
www.descendedfromodin.co.uk/
It is too late for me to read all that, but thank you for writing out a well paragraph essay.
G*D bless.
I have to laugh at the Protestant attempt to "purify" Christianity by tossing out everything they regard as "Pagan." They think if they get rid of statues, saints, feast days, veneration of Mary and vestments they have "purified" Christianity. The Trinity, virgin birth, concept of the logos, incarnation, miracles, ascension into heaven, sitting at the right hand of the father deity and final judgment are all from much older religions. If they take all that away, what's left? As for hares (not rabbits) and eggs they were the harbingers of spring. Hares were considered sacred (see Wikipedia on the Three Hares en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_hares People didn't eat hares because it was thought it was granny witch in hare form.
Best crossover!! Best timeline!
i am not pagan myself but i find the various kinds of paganism really intressting also way more appealing then christianity or islam. or for that matter hinduism. I instead give myself to the 8 great ones.
(the last part was a joke though)
Isn't the tree where the yule log comes from?
Thanks!
Missouri has a very large pagan population mostly Wiccan but pagan or polytheistic none the less
Palagean.. hmmm -CC, interesting
Great convo however,I listened the whole show and the answer to the title was vaguely explained 😂
Monotheism originated from ancient Egypt for about 700 years they worshipped a single deity
In my congregation, I was taught that pagan basically meant any religion not Christian
Even other Abrahamic faiths like Jews, Muslims, Baha’i, etc?
Hi Ocean. IMO...
The pagan festivals were always aligned with the solstices & equinoxes, so Yule is really New Year... Yule = Ul = End as in 'Ultimate'.
Easter is Spring equinox, festival of fertility, same name as 'Oestrus' - hence the eggs & bunnies.
It corresponds to passing through puberty in a human-life. While yule is death & (re)birth.
Would you be up for having me on for a discussion? I'd like to discuss the Four Elements, as pagan science, and the original & correct theory of everything...
When did you start your journey of discovery Veritopian?
@@hangedman821
I kicked into gear about 5 years ago, when I decided to think the "big questions" through for myself...
I gave up listening to other people, and went back to 1st principles of science.
Ended up... in a very interesting place...
The Four Elements is the real theory of everything, and I can prove it...
@@veritopian1823
Mate I wrote this 6 years ago.
biblodiac.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/the-hidden-knowledge/
@@hangedman821
A kindred spirit. Nice. That's a great article...
I have some slightly crappy vids on my channel, if ur interested. I've joined up God/Odin, the Dao, the Four, and the Seven... It's the universal-mechanism of creation... It's cool AF. :)
@@veritopian1823
Mate...I've been shouting this info from the roof tops for over a decade.
I'd be well happy to look at your channel.
I'm from up the road in Glasgow btw.
Cheers!
Here's a question for you before I go.
Have you ever noticed the connection between the zodiac/planets and music?
Can someone please point me in the right direction about Polytheism among the jews? This struck me as fascinating since from the religion I grew up in, and likely many others, I was always told that from Adam and Eve there has been one God.
I am imagining that the counter argument is that it was simply outside corruption that made the jews start believing in other gods, but I would love to read more about this
Believe or not. The Christianity is technically polytheistic.. kinda. Let me explain.
The original Old Testament Bible was written by Jew for Jew. There’s a term the Jews referred to their God as. Elohim. Long story short, Elohim is the plural form of God. Meaning more than one image of God. It appears around 2,500 times in the original texts. (You can even find it in “The prince of Egypt” song Deliver us.)
Before things get more confusing, please allow me to explicate on how many gods exist under the branch of Elohim. Elohim God created the Heavens and the earth from the first to the sixth day, creating Adam and Eve right before the seventh day. Elohim God says in Genesis chapter 1 verses 26-27 that they are creating mankind in their own image. They made Adam and Eve. Male and female. Because mankind were made in Elohim Gods image rectifies that there are two images of God. God the Father and also God the Mother.
Even the book of revelation says the same thing. In revelation chapter 19 verse 7, there’s a wedding between the Lamb and the bride. Through some mated verses, we can confirm that Jesus is the lamb (John 1:29). Because Jesus is the Father(John 10:30, Isa 9:6-7, Lk 1:31-33) by simple context clues, we can determine through the Bible, whoever this Bride is, is by default our Fathers wife; therefore she is our Mother.
And just as Jesus has a name, so does God the Mother. Revelation chapter 21 verses 9-10 tells us plainly that the Brides name is Jerusalem. And Galatian chapter 4 verse 26 quite candidly tells us that “ the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our Mother.” Clearly testifying and God Elohim. The existence of God the Father and God the Mother.
Please let me know if this clears anything up or if I answered your question.
@@carltonxcarlton Thank you for this explication, this is very helpful and insightful, cheers!
@@jaredcreel1690 no problem.
If you have any other issues with some things that are a bit muddy, feel free to ask.
34:06 - neither the whole Virgin birth to start with 😂
Maybe we need a better term for 'being' outside of modern hierarchical organized religions other than Pagen.
We are still using Christian based POV and language.
Humanry sound interesting!
After listening to the philosophical teaching of native American elder, Tink Tinker, who pointed out the revisionism of Christian based encounters with older/different civilizations, where our mainstream narratives today have been written to serve an establishment. When a christian translates the tribal act of talking with ancestors, communing with the river, being the rain the wind the animal as we are all of the same energy of life the Christian vocabulary only sees worship, does not recognize the balance of duality of male and female balance in leaders ( sees god as above, the concept of one v. nothing is special we are all of the same, male and female do not exist without the other) Just the be aware of the forced datum of Christianity that label these way of being as beliefs, worship, being pagan or other. Churches were intentional built upon sacred sites of the older earth religions. I am keen to find paths to our common ancestors way of being that we have been separated from for nearly two millennia.I think we can relearn our per-christian ways of being from native American elders past down history of how their interaction with the Alie'nation (western christian settlers) and how they are still working to rebuild their community and space of being. I can see that there are similarities with the new world ways that existed in Europe before the purification.
Give Heilung a listen it finds something in my soul that help me imagine old ways of being. Just a though, hope it helps!
Interesting view of Christmas trees. Speaking without having read any specific literature on this subject, I just don't see how it has any rooting in Christianity. I'm prepared to be corrected, but it surely hasn't got any derivation from the Bible. This is not to say it wasn't the Christians who brought the tree into the house and made it part of the Christian celebration , but I can't see how this isn't co-opting a pagan symbol and repurposing it - especially since you said that wreaths were pagan.
It seems to me like this is Christians taking some ancient midwinter rite - maybe gifts being left under the biggest evergreen in the forest - and bringing it indoors, long after any original religious significance has been lost. Even the type of tree used - an evergreen - seems to go against what a Christian would do. As a symbol of life continuing in bleak conditions of winter, it works perfectly - but surely a Christian would use a tree that loses its leaves - that dies , only to come back to life in the Spring.
I think you brought up a significant point with the whole culture/religion dynamic. My view is that the Christmas tree is an example of culture imprinting itself on the religion, rather than stemming from a core religious tenet.
The only reason why it would be considered Christian is because Christians are the ones that started doing it. It doesn't appear to be older than that, but it could be. It's not definitely Christian, but it's not definitely originally pagan either.
@@OceanKeltoi
I agree that it was Christians who started the practice - I'm not sure that makes it a Christian practice (certainly not in the proprietory way some Christians view it). Because under that logic, the rampant commercialisation and winter sales frenzies would also be considered a Christian practice.
I don't think bringing an actual tree inside was a pagan practice (certainly not a widespread one anyway). if it was I think it would have appeared in Britain with the arrival of the Angles and Saxons maybe - although it just doesn't make sense at all considering the logistical problems of chopping down a tree just to stick in your little roundhouse for a week or so. A massive pain in the arse - lets just stick a wreath up on the door.
@@bengreen171 If Christians starting it, propagating the practice, and associating it with their religious holiday doesn't make it a Christian practice, I honestly don't know what does.
Sure it might be based on something that pagans did at one point. And that might be a safe assumption. But it's not one we can make conclusively, as to say that it's assuredly a pagan practice. The modern practice is very much a Christian behavior. But that doesn't mean that Pagans can't use it or anything.
And yeah, the commercialization is largely Christian, though you could argue that it's more capitalist than anything else.
@@OceanKeltoi
I think there's a subtle distinction - at least to my mind - between a thing that Christians attach to their religion, and a thing that necessarily comes from that religion. And I think that's precisely why pagans and atheists - and even Jews or Hindus can all do the Christmas things.
The tree isn't attached to Jesus worship in the same way, I'm guessing, the wine and wafer eating is.
The whole capitalist commercialism is a case in point. There are christians out there who consider capitalism to be a Christian concept (always strikes me as odd what Christians take pride in ownership of), but it has nothing to do with any core tenet of Christianity (beyond a few vague references to investing your "talents").
I see the point you're making here, and in some sense I agree with it. I suppose my position is that these "Christian things" don't happen in a vacuum - like you said, all those judaic ideas permeating into the proto-Christian identity.
@@OceanKeltoi
as a relevant aside, I've just been watching Skylar Fiction talking about his upcoming debate with True Empiricism - "Was America founded on christian values". I must admit this causes me to react with a sharp intake of breath, as when one sees someone stub their toe, because I fear that Skylar is risking being wrong in the face of TE - and nobody should be put in that position. As I understand it, the original topic was whether the US's constitutional makeup is Christian, which brings up all that separation of Church and state stuff - easy victory you would think. But I don't think that you can deny that a country settled by Christians must have the values of those Christians shaping the culture.
I left a comment on Skylar's video mentioning slavery and women's rights as a hint to how I think the only way to salvage anything from the question is to show that Christian values are not necessarily a "good" thing.
I think the Xmas tree was about the tree itself being a fir, which is native to Scandinavia. (IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY LOL) Obviously, we don’t know but that’s a whole rabbit hole you can do down, reader.
It's also native to all of Europe sans Italy and England, half of continental Asia and most of North America.
Isn't the Yule log a Christmas tree?
If the Christmas Tree is meant to be thrown on a fire then maybe? From what I know it's just a huge log, not a full tree.
@@OceanKeltoi
The yule log represents the "wheel" or "cycle" of the year ending and burning,before the new "yule/wheel" begins.
@@OceanKeltoi alright I just remember learning in some pagan groups that the Christmas tree is supposed to be like a secondary offering to landwights and whatnot.
The only thing i agree with the jehovahs on is that christmas is an insult to jesus who is really the first human socialist and should be honoured as such apart from maybe nabateans who seem to have refused to own land.
A tree decoration is mentioned in Jeremiah 10.... The Hebrew God of the Jewish people condemned a tree decoration and worship. This was well before Jesus and Christianity.
Did I miss the part where you explain the pagan origins of Christmas?
I looked up Piñatas once and it seemed to be very Latino Christian and that ruined Piñatas for me so I could be wrong but they are not Pagan.
Ocean Keltoi. Let me know if you got this comment.i would love to talk to you.
Where do I argue with these Athiests and christians?
Doesn't the bible show an aspect of a pantheon just from the perspective of the followers of yahweh? Like even the first commandment gives me that vibe, no other gods before me. I mean I know people interpret it sometimes to mean do worship any other gods than me, but it could also be dont give to the other gods until you have given to me first. There are other examples but not right off the top of my head.
😁Deities will answer a prayer or not answer a prayer regardless of intention. sorry.
Is this a re upload
The Antichrisp
Well yes but actually no.
It was first on Owens channel and now Ocean uploaded it to his channel.
Can you be a heathen and not affiliated with anything? Ppl tell me I act like a heathen all the time 😎
Christmas is easily explained....if you accept Jesus is the sun.
Thomas Paine said this.....
“The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun.”
In the cycle of the year...the "OLD" sun dies on Dec 22nd....the winter solstice.
This is the midnight/darkest time of the year.
The word solstice means "sun stands still"....to the ancients....the sun was dead.
However....it was only dead for 3 days....and then came back to life on Dec 25th.....born as a new "BABY" sun/Jesus.
Ready to start his journey round "Galilee" (and what are the chances Galilee means "circuit"....the circuit of the year).
This all happens in the sign of the goat (Capricorn when the sun is at the tropic of Capricorn)......this is why the ruler of darkness/Satan is often pictured as a goat....due to Capricorn.
And as everybody with an interest in astrology knows....the sign of Capricorn is ruled by Saturn.......and that is the reason the Romans called this same winter solstice festival "Saturnalia".
All religions,all myths,all fairytales are due to the cycles of nature and astrology in story form.
One example before I toddle off.
Sleeping beauty is a story about the earth falling asleep after the sign of Scorpio (Halloween time).
This is why she is pricked in her finger (scorpio),she falls asleep (as the earth does in the northern hemisphere).
She stays asleep until the prince arrives (the sun at the spring equinox),kisses her and she awakens (the earth starts to warm,growth and fecundity have returned).
This is the real reason that JW's celebrate the memorial.....first they wait for the sun to arrive (March 21st in the sign of Aries the lamb/ram)....then they have to wait for his bride to arrive all dressed in white for the wedding (the full moon).
This is the same story as the fairytale.
And it's again all due to the cycles of nature......the sign of Aries is why Jesus is called the LAMB (ARIES) of God who takes away the sins (darkness/winter) of the world.
It's also the reason that the Israelites put lambs blood on the door lintels at passover. (the real meaning of passover is the sun "passing over" the equator at the spring equinox,heading up to the tropic of Cancer.)
It's all nature in stories.......
#AgnosticAnimism
Pagans seem to get a bad rap on all sides.
What annoys me is when atheists lump pagans and christians together. Its a bit annoying when they say religious people be specific please
Why is it hard to understand people 1000s of years ago needed an explanation of existence. Is there not the smallest part of you that may think creation stories seem a little ehhh...I guess I'm one of those weird atheistic followers of asatru. 😆 No offense I respect everyone's right to believe in things. I never judge Christians, I guess I just don't understand how to have faith in something that I can't touch, see or feel. I definitely feel a connection and spirituality just can't swallow any kind of supernatural power.
Oh so you are a Pagan? Name every god.
WAY TOO LONG!
Jeremiah in the bible states that cutting down of a tree and bringing it indoors and decorating it with silver and gold was the practice of the "working hands" of the heathens. Plain and simple, the "Christmas" tree IS PAGAN.
that verse is about the gold plating of wooden idols, it does not reference a christmas tree tradition.
Ocean AND Owen!? Whoa!! ❤
In finland christmass tree is very old tradition. And has something to do with pagans. Also. Easter eggs come from orthodox christianity where they symbolize the new berth of christ