Suris the Skeptic vs Mike Winger vs Ocean Keltoi Debate Pt 1

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 78

  • @jameselliott2931
    @jameselliott2931 3 ปีที่แล้ว +30

    Dang. Bible Guy said "I am not a philosopher," and then went on to give us dozens of examples to illustrate that point.

  • @Control_alt_delete
    @Control_alt_delete 3 ปีที่แล้ว +27

    Mike Winger seems out of his league in this discussion.

  • @elirien4264
    @elirien4264 2 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    "God is good and holy because god said so..."

  • @DarkSaber-1111
    @DarkSaber-1111 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    Mike hated Suris bringing up the vail. He wanted Suris to take his bait for arguing over a flase dichotomy only to have his question completely circumvented and shown to be under-developed in its thinking. I loved it Suris when calls out Mike for can kicking early in the debate only for Mike to asked all confused and innocent;
    Mike: "what do you mean?"
    Suris: "That's alright; I'm sure the audience will get it."
    Such a cheeky dismissive reply! I love it!!!

    • @OceanKeltoi
      @OceanKeltoi  ปีที่แล้ว +6

      Suris is excellent at that kind of stuff.

    • @DarkSaber-1111
      @DarkSaber-1111 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@OceanKeltoi what are your thoughts on debating aron ra? I used to fallow him and have come to find hin as an over all decent individual and a good debater.
      I'm used to seeing him debate monotheists but would find him debating in a wider spectrum of beliefs to be interesting.
      Err... I'm also enjoying listening to you debate as well and I like your approach. I think the two of you would make for an interesting conversation.

  • @MRdaBakkle
    @MRdaBakkle 2 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    It is interesting to see Mike say that Ocean is here to disprove Christianity, but Ocean is fully able to say that the Christian God is true just as the Heathen Gods are true.

    • @doktordanomite9105
      @doktordanomite9105 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Christians dont feel safe when others do, they only feel safe when oppressing others

  • @Heliocoptero
    @Heliocoptero 5 ปีที่แล้ว +17

    Bring on the next one! 'cause if they're all this thought-provoking, I'll have a philosophical good time

  • @lupercalia7660
    @lupercalia7660 5 ปีที่แล้ว +20

    Suris' cats in the background lmao

  • @elirien4264
    @elirien4264 2 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    "Christian's, atheists and all the strange creatures in-between". Even when they're trying to be nice, some Christians cannot help themselves from finding some way to insult non-Xians.

  • @Enzar17
    @Enzar17 4 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    16 minutes in, I'm already fed up with Mike Winger not understanding the problem within the Euthyphro Dilemma, which is in my opinion greatly amplified by the concept of a monotheistic god. Reading through the comments, I see that this is only going to get worse.

    • @matthewsteele5229
      @matthewsteele5229 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

      Yes. It’s more of constructive criticism in a polytheistic sense, but it becomes a true paradox when you get a single Omni God

    • @AkujiMalice
      @AkujiMalice 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      30 minutes in and I almost feel like Winger is here as a strawman. Christian apologetics CAN'T be this bankrupt of solid interlocutors. Surely the channel has a bias..... and then I think of all the atheist channels and all the arguments I've heard.... and I'm starting to think maybe the uncharitable approach here is bringing them into the battlefield at all when they are so ill equipped.

    • @AkujiMalice
      @AkujiMalice 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      and for clarity if someone sees I'm wrong here let me know. I feel like I'm being an ass by effectively saying "maybe they should sit out real discussions on the matter" but I'm genuinely starting to think this is bullying.

    • @Control_alt_delete
      @Control_alt_delete 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Seems Mike Winger is out of his league.

    • @davidpo5517
      @davidpo5517 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I looked it up, and honestly I don't get what problem the Euthyphro Dilemma is supposed to be addressing. Is it addressing the nature of good and evil and how to define it? Or just the source of good and evil? It doesn't seem to me that the dilemma is attempting to solve anything in particular.
      Near as I can tell, it purports that if good is only good because that's what God says, then morality is arbitrary. But if the moral framework exists independently of divinity, then God isn't omnipotent. And both of those conclusions aren't necessarily correct, so...yeah, I don't get either.
      It doesn't seem like Plato wrote that dilemma to prove or disprove the existence of gods or religion, therefore it seems odd that they're using it for that.

  • @oldmandan4244
    @oldmandan4244 4 ปีที่แล้ว +30

    Knew it, Mike Winger goes for the "torture baby's for fun," apologism right out of the gate.

    • @benjaminpeters6729
      @benjaminpeters6729 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

      Ignoring when Yahweh accepted a child sacrifice.

    • @Control_alt_delete
      @Control_alt_delete 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Ignoring that in his world view his God watches every baby that has ever been tortured for fun while doing nothing to intervene.

    • @concretesandals4501
      @concretesandals4501 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Control_alt_delete That's why the phrase "for fun" is in the apologetic. If he just said "tortures babies" is wrong, then he would call his god a monster for sending kids to hell. And he could never do that.

    • @Control_alt_delete
      @Control_alt_delete 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@concretesandals4501 I said God watches as babies are tortured "for fun" and does nothing. I'm not seeing your point

    • @cantubloodaxe768
      @cantubloodaxe768 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Control_alt_delete He was referring to Mikes choice of words. He was agreeing with you too.

  • @Le_GingerBeardMan
    @Le_GingerBeardMan 4 ปีที่แล้ว +46

    As someone who is coming out of Christianity into Germanic polytheism, even when I view things through my old Christian framework I don’t get how Mike didn’t understand Suris’s appeal to the veil of ignorance answered his question. I’m only halfway through the video, but Mike is coming off as ignorant to the other perspectives...
    EDIT: Got to the part about LGBTQ people and wow.... I’ve never seen an apologist handle this topic so poorly.

    • @LilPup_13
      @LilPup_13 ปีที่แล้ว

      I've just started watching Ocean's playlists on debates and I used to think that apologetic people were smart., since I myself came from Christianity, I am really starting to second guess that after hearing the LGBTQ argument. He is floundering and he can't stand it.

    • @doktordanomite9105
      @doktordanomite9105 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I have but they are mostly just hate preachers who have podcast

  • @emh.1178
    @emh.1178 4 ปีที่แล้ว +36

    Wow that christian dude is so condescending and his vibes are rancid:/

  • @xJadeWolfxx
    @xJadeWolfxx 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Wow. I've been backtracking through these old podcasts as I have the time to sit for the whole thing and this one is... something else... its like Mike refuses to actually open his ears.

    • @idigamstudios7463
      @idigamstudios7463 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Cognitive dissonance in action

  • @ArielRyanBautista1313
    @ArielRyanBautista1313 3 ปีที่แล้ว +25

    Is it just me or does the christian always avoid thinking of the deeper implications the atheist and polytheist are throwing at him

    • @gp2399
      @gp2399 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      I think that comes from the the Christian thing of "Don't ask questions because asking questions is evil."

    • @elirien4264
      @elirien4264 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      No, it's not just you.

  • @duplicarus
    @duplicarus ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Surprisingly a lot of Dante's Inferno influenced the modern interpretation of Hell for many Christians, even if they haven't read the books, mostly inferno as it's the most popular of the trilogy. So not so much Purgatorio or Paradiso. It's kind of like how an upside down cross or St. Peter's Cross, a holy symbol, turned into a demonic symbol, usually through the inversion of the regular cross in horror movies and popular culture, and made it's way into Christianity as an evil symbol.
    Edit: I wanted to add that this is for people that aren't theologians, like the common Christian, or at least that has been my anecdotal experience from interacting with them.

  • @amadeusradio9608
    @amadeusradio9608 3 ปีที่แล้ว +18

    If Winger ever gets to realize how weak his beliefs are, he'd probably commit suicide. This guy transpires insecurity.

    • @LisaAnn777
      @LisaAnn777 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      That is why he refuses to see any other view, he just really doesn't want to.

  • @aapisiharper5023
    @aapisiharper5023 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    *equates homosexuality murder.
    "I would not equate homosexuality to murder."

    • @idigamstudios7463
      @idigamstudios7463 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      He didn't make a parallel argument...
      Just argued the homophobic preacher's favorite two points in parallel...

  • @peach411
    @peach411 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I think a conversation between mike and ocean about Catholicsm would be awesome

  • @matthewsteele5229
    @matthewsteele5229 3 ปีที่แล้ว +33

    Homosexuality is a more common mechanism among species for social cohesion than vocal communication. Don’t call it unnatural

  • @Batgirlofburnside
    @Batgirlofburnside ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Calling polytheistic gods comic book characters comes across so insulting. Like at no point has Ocean insulted Christian god. Even as he expected people to be trying to disprove his religion. Ooo I was triggered. Thank you Ocean for turning the tables on him.

  • @funnelvortex7722
    @funnelvortex7722 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    As soon as the homosexuality question came up I knew exactly how Mike was gonna respond and it's just as yikes as I predicted.

  • @philosophicaljay3449
    @philosophicaljay3449 4 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Mike, master at dodging criticisms

  • @Jamie-uu7xp
    @Jamie-uu7xp ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I'm not a Christian anymore but there are ways to defend Scripture to not be so against homosexuality (albeit not completely and I'm not a great theologian to confidently defend it) but I doubt it would be in interpretations that Mike would like. Man the way Mike handled that section was rough, I actually got up and went to go brush my teeth after to make myself feel clean again.

  • @carmensavu5122
    @carmensavu5122 3 ปีที่แล้ว +22

    Mike, someone with the criminal record of your god is in no position to give any pronouncements on morality. He's someone we should be trying at Nuremberg. You're willing to overlook genocide committed by your god, but two people of the same sex being in a loving relationship is immoral? I think you have your values topsy-turvy, my friend. Go reevaluate them.

    • @ArielRyanBautista1313
      @ArielRyanBautista1313 3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      And that's just the body count in the literature, the implications of the body count the religion itself has from over the millennia!

  • @forestjohnson7474
    @forestjohnson7474 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

    58:58 I noticed something strange, mike didnt use the typical fear technique most Christians ive seen/met use. Usually its paradise, or you're burning in hell.

    • @idigamstudios7463
      @idigamstudios7463 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      He does when they get to the divine hiddenness, but through a sort of smug insinuation.

  • @mammo_the_mammoth
    @mammo_the_mammoth ปีที่แล้ว

    Mike Winger I’m not gonna lie first time I heard that I was a little stoned and I thought I heard my wiener

  • @bookwyrmn
    @bookwyrmn 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Strange creatures in between?

    • @raeskoczen3193
      @raeskoczen3193 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      I feel like monotheism is the one in between polytheism and atheism

  • @cantubloodaxe768
    @cantubloodaxe768 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Mike is in no position to learn. Bothers the shit out of me.

  • @mammo_the_mammoth
    @mammo_the_mammoth ปีที่แล้ว +2

    So he states that God is good so the things that he would command, therefore are good are we talking about the same God that encouraged the sacrifice of babies something about that doesn’t seem very good

  • @Kronqjubiees
    @Kronqjubiees ปีที่แล้ว

    Where is part 2? :(

  • @TerryDBlack
    @TerryDBlack ปีที่แล้ว

    Mike really is out of his depth, it’s embarrassing.

  • @binaryglitch64
    @binaryglitch64 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    1:31 ...

  • @blisspancakes4070
    @blisspancakes4070 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Mike has magical texts to back him up, so clearly his god's swartz is bigger...dammit.

  • @finngrieger6076
    @finngrieger6076 ปีที่แล้ว

    I LOVE DANTES INFERNO RAAAAAAAAAAAAA

  • @forestjohnson7474
    @forestjohnson7474 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

    "How bad sin is 50:25" translation, how bad lgbtq is. If he's going to use the Bible to discriminate, he just needs to say it, and stop trying to tip-toe justify it.

  • @donniepaulson4069
    @donniepaulson4069 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Mike Winger was very cordial and respectful when he was allowed to speak.

  • @safourgardpa5459
    @safourgardpa5459 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Suril sincerely was awful to listen to in this... Simply won't let anyone talking to him get a word in