Should You HONE It? Watch This BEFORE Your Next Build!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- In episode from the 2023 @EnginePerformanceExpo Lake Speed Jr and Ed Keibler talk about plasma spray (aka: SUMEbore) cylinder coatings and what you need to know before honing them.
The guys dive into the main differences between standard cast iron cylinder surfaces where you’re honing to create the valleys that will hold oil, and a SUMEbore coated cylinder which is nearly mirror-like in its surface finish.
Ed also provides some tips on the type of hone material and grit that need to be used with SUMbore cylinder linings, and explains why proper clamp load is key to preventing distortion in these types of cylinders.
#engine #enginebuilding #horsepower #pistonring - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
You can't go wrong with Lake. Always interesting. Thanks.
Thanks!
The plasma spray has been used in industrial diesel engines for years.
The company that invented it makes hand application units for doing main tunnels.
There is also a deck resurface machine that can do over 20 thou of deck addition to save a big engine block.
When the diesel engine is $1m you would rather keep rebuilding than buy new.
I've experienced seeing these types of liners during my factory training at BMW years ago with the Nikasil, and it also reminds me of the Honda B21a engine back in 1990 with the FRM (fiber reinforced metal) cylinders. Both were extremely smooth, definitely different looking to the naked eye, and almost no crosshatch at all. Oddly enough the Honda FRM would eat rings like crazy and you would have tons of oil consumption and black smoke once it got to a certain mileage, but I never did experience ring wear with the BMW's. Thanks for the detailed info about working with these liners. 👍👍
What a great presentation. Thank God us older gear heads can understand this technology. It is absolutely the best of modern engineering.
Glad it was helpful!
Fred Catlin has 455cid Buicks done this way.
Back in the early 1990’s
Ole Fred was the champion - undefeated
many years ago I worked for Textron , Homelite division. We used anodized aluminum for the bore and used a grit blast process to make the pits for oil retention. It worked.
I have one of those chainsaws from the 80's. It's still going strong.
Interesting. Is there any documentation or similar you could link?
@@maximilianlindner only my memory. It was replaced by hard chrome so it must not have been as good as chrome..
Homelite?
Do love my lil straight shaft weed Wacker that I just resurrected.
I haven't needed it in a couple years, but now I do.
Some fuel lines and an air filter and off it goes.
I was shocked that almost no parts are available ,then I remembered it's 20+yrs old and not supposed to last that long.
Hopefully it'll go another 20.
Does this thing have a treated bore or it's just standard stuff?
@@MrTheHillfolk That age model should have a chrome bore.
Great video. Lake, could you please speak about ring break-in, and maybe ring material/alloy, for SumeBore sprayed cylinders?
Great suggestion!
You are on it again Lake...
Thanks!
Lake is so awesome, he’s upped our hobby’s knowledge exponentially!
Thanks!
Always on top of the best IC engine technology Lake !! 💪🇺🇸
Thanks!
Greetings from Concord, NC! Thanks for this video. I’ve recently gotten into the hobby of rebuilding old Suzuki race motorcycles and knowing they have a NikaSil coating, this info will certainly serve me well down the road if I should ever have to do any cylinder work. It’s cool knowing how the Plasma spray bore coatings work. I’ve learned a TON from your channel and your videos!! -Josh
Thanks!
Rotax engines in Skidoo snowmobiles have had plasma coated cylinders since 2017.
I still like a sleeved bore in a two-stroke. The coated cylinders tend to be more prone to flaking off when you port the cylinder.
This is sorta like what we would do back in the day when you would do a re-ring and bust the glaze. Just amazing how far we’ve come !!!
Yep!
No matter what the topic, When Lake brings a video, its going to be great. Thank You Lake, All of the love in the world to you. Now to figure out of the new Mobile-1, 0W8 is a good oil compared to Pennzoil 0W16.. The cost is higher, but usually the addicitve package isnt as good as Pennzoils. Would love feedback on it.
I appreciate that, and thanks for the suggestion!
Thanks for posting. I learn stuff from your posts lake. Ive owned the total seal profilometer, computer since they first came out. I used to hone a bunch of spray bore coyotes 8-9 years ago and had a profilometer at that shop but wasn't doing them correctly after watching this lol.
Thanks for sharing
Where to order one of those Profilometers and what is a typical price for them?
Thanks
@@mathewboyd3746 total seal $5800 and worth every penny!
Cool. I had no idea you even could hone a plasma coated bore. Absolutely makes sense to use a very fine grit. Thanks for the video!
This is a great video! I will watch your other video about SMEBore on your boxster engine next. I have a Lokasil engine in a Cayenne that has massive bore scoring. Seems like it might be a candidate for this process...
Very informative. More of aerospace materials.
Thanks!
I'd like to see a test of a glass bead blasted cylinders with various types of piston ring material. Used cylinder bores . Instead of using dingle ball hone for clean up on a rebuild.
I find this interesting because period blocks can be reconditioned instead of discarded. Plasma holds where a colder "spray-weld" process might fail.
Right on!
All I can say is, WOW!
Awsome brother!!! I have been wondering about the the new 5.0 Coyote engines. I have been hearing about spray bore in the 5 liter and was thinking they may be disposable blocks. I guess not. Thank you for the info.
Glad to help
Whats the longevity of this surface compared to current methods of honing that are being used and the difference in cost?
The visual image in my head is the standard crosshatch doing better at containing a controlled amount of oil.
Interesting process.
It's actually a more durable surface.
Twin wire arc cylinder coating was developed by AMG, first used on the M156 engine block. World first.
,,, thank you ,,, !
You bet!
I have to believe the spray bore is a cost cutting measure only. Not only does it cut down production time and cost, but a damaged cylinder means the block is trash, where a standard liner can be honed deeper, bored, and replaced. Not to mention a nicasil liner is more rigid than just aluminum cylinder with a surface coating.
It is actually more expensive than Nikasil and Alusil.
Where can you find a list of builders that can apply a plasma spray cylinder coating?
Just out of curiosity from watching these bore finishing videos, would it be right to think that if you a very smooth finish (1000 grit sand paper) its those valleys depths that are important to hold enough oil?wouldn't the rings aquaplaning if the surface is too smooth, how would the rings bed in? Dry or wet start up in a break in period?I came across some chromard liners from isuzu and they are very smooth,and they last ....
Lake, another good one. Question, can this process be ised on other machines surfaces? Crankshafts or cams?
Thanks again for the great info,
Chip
Thanks. I’m not aware of it being used on parts other than cylinder bores.
Thanks Lake... great presentation: So, it would appear that the Plasma/Sumi bore cylinders wear incredibly well.... And hold oil at the same or better level than a deep RPK iron bore.... In the end, a superior bore in terms of wear, or at least it would seem. In search of better durability in builds for my customers where quality/durability is worth spending more on, using what is typically a "conventional V8 iron block", are there any pre-plasma-coated liners/sleeves that can be installed in a block... that is 0.010"+ undersized... and taken to size using the stepped honing method from rough to 1200-diamond to bring this tech and wear property to older iron (or aluminum blocks for that matter) @TotalSeal .
Thanks. Unfortunately those type liners don’t currently exist.
Where does one get this done? I see potential!
The problem with the high tech coatings is cost. Stuff has gotten so expensive at machine shops that they are folding up and closing from a lack of people being able to afford their services. I know I never had a motorcycle cylinder replated they got a sleeve so they could be bored out several times.
Can you spray other things ? Piston skirt?
So you can't really bore and rehone making say a coyote block a throw away with a small scratch ect?
How much would it cost to overbore and re-apply?
Does Total Seal have specific rings for plasma bore?
interesting to see the Porsche cyl Lake, but Harley sells hundreds of thousands of bikes in US alone. I think their cyls have a similar coating. Could you pls do a vid on them? thx.
We will look into that.
Am I guessing right in that they clean up the bore due to contamination of the porous surface, that it's not circulating oil with contaminants like traditional hone groves. Would it make it more critical with oil for street use (daily driving), I believe some oils can produce more (if I'm not mistaken). 🤔
It is good to clean up the pores in case they have become loaded up with deposits.
how does this spraying? can you take a sbc bored 40 over and bring it back to stock size?
Can overbore LT blocks be coated with this stuff?
Hey Lake, where or who does the plasma spray bore or Sumerbor coating application? Also, is there soneone close by who can hone it to the correct finish and any contacts would be appreciated?
They don't do the SUMEbore for the aftermarket in the US anymore. They have to be shipped to Europe right now.
Motorcycle 2 strokes use a cylinder coating
...why don't engine blocks use it ??
I noticed your mentioning of CBN 1200 grit and later calling it Diamond. Diamond is crushed to size whereas CBN is grown to size. CBN is a much less contaminated grit. The world Premier maker of CBN is Poltava diamond Marching in Ukraine. I am testing some of their sharpening stones made of Bronze that is infused with CBN Throughout. While they are a world leader in Diamond and CBN machining tools tech. they are just now making their sharpening stones available here in the U.S..
If you contact them, let them know that KnifeMaker sent you. M.Lovett
KnifeMaker/Retired after over 47+ Years in the Craft
Does Ford use spray bore in all of their engines or just the Coyote? What about the 3.5 Ecoboost?
Not all of their engines, but they do use it on the Coyote engines. Not sure about the EcoBoost.
Are the FR9 blocks from Roush Yates coated ?
Yes they are!
How is it different from Nickosil? On 2stroke dirt bike engines it is nickasil applied on aluminum cylinder
Very different! Nikasil is a plating process that still needs a honed/crosshatched surface. Also Nikasil is not compatible with chrome faced piston rings. The plasma spray bores are compatible with Chrome rings and are mirror finished.
Where can you get this sumibore process done - in Australia in particular? Not the honing but the actual coating. Is this available?
Also, it's known that the cross-hatch angle affects ring pack friction and oil consumption to a large degree. Does this coating allow for a lower friction (wider?) hone angle without excessive oil consumption?
It's available from Oerlikon Metco in Austia
Then why do these plasma bore cylinders always score?
So is Plasma spary is kinda the same as nikasil bore?
Different but similar
How do we hone or clean up a cylinder that an aluminum piston seized in with a nicacil finish? Wouldn't a std hone clog the finish with grit & wear the new rings out or worse yet, clog the pores & cause lack of oil holding?
th-cam.com/video/TVSHhtDZ0w0/w-d-xo.html
I've heard from a few sources that diesel oils used in gasoline engines leads to accelerated bore and ring wear. Think there's any validity to that?
It depends on several factors, but that can be the case. Diesel oils are not ideal for E85 or Methanol fueled engines.
What would the ballpark cost be for having a block treated like this? Say a 3 liter straight six.
If i brought a block into a shop for a rebuild, would the average machinist know what this is and not to bore it oversized?
I would hate to speculate on that
Nope...you'll need to educate your engine-boring machinist & pray his inflated ego allows him to learn something new.
Best regards,
Ben
It’s seems like a very tough coating and works great in a hard running engine but it seems to degrade over the years. The Ford guys pulling their engine after 10 years find chipping at the top of the cylinders.
That’s a problem with the block moving around too much.
This sounds awesome but you didn’t mention anything about type of rings to use, break in etc…
Unlike Nikasil, the plasma spray bores are compatible with all standard ring materials and standard break-in procedures.
Looks like Chrome printing.
Is this chrome ?
I bet will be good for a lot nitrometh
Not chrome
I'm starting to think that the big OEM's are making things more expensive just because they can.
You're just getting there? Must be new to the game,, it's been happening for decades at least, arguably since the well before the 90's
@@kevinbowers3917 actually, I was there in the 80's when the torx head and spring locks were introduced. My sarcasm just wasn't clear enough.
@@psychoholicslag4801 gotcha, word
@@kevinbowers3917 my dad was a flathead ford hot rodder and called the engineers button pushing morons and college educated idiots.
Also spend bazillions to gain .0000000000000000000000003 mpg over their whole fleet.
Nikasil?
Nikasil is different. The SUMEBore is sprayed on instead of a plating.
Sounds like another giant recall to me
Plasma spray bore, low tension piston rings, aluminum blocks and people wonder why these engine use soo much oil. What's great for race engines isn't necessarily great for street daily driven engines. I normally love Lake's videos. I'm not drinking the Kool-Aide on this one.
Is that true? Do Alusil, nikasil, and plasma spray bores always burn oil? Consume rings?
@@bobirving6052 New Coyotes burn so much oil there's a TSB for a longer dipstick. I'm not kidding.
dd
Polish
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 TRUMP 2024 2024
ya know , Mr. oil is knowledgeable enough to explain all of this on his own.... doing these type of (( visiting the pro's shop)) videos, it comes across like a infomercial.... he takes great logical and reliable info and and gives it a snake oil presentation....
Don't feel to bad, I notice the turbo diesel king of knowledge, G.B. leaning to a low karma style of badmouthing builders or manufacturers , ((by name)) ... Not sure where the idea's originating, but it's not working... now watch some SM racing engines videos.
I apologize if it comes across that way. I have authentic passion for these topics, so I tend to get animated. I can see how it can be perceived that way. That’s not my intention.
Used spray bores are junk.
Until the engines at temperature!
Unless you plan on honing the cylinders while the engine is at operating temperature, a torque plate is worthless.
Does the coating wear evenly with pinned rings? And is it pliable enough to not come off from jug flex like other metal treatments do? I ask because I wonder how well coatings like this would work in a 2 stroke engine, or a horizontal 4 stroke. The rings don't rotate on many 2 strokes, and the cylinder expansion isn't always symmetrical due to differences in port cooling. The reduction of friction and oil requirements would be more than worth it if it would survive that. Ring seal has been an issue on 2 strokes for years, and if it would work on that. There is a huge market for this in lawn care 2 strokes and air cooled horizontal 4 strokes that suffer from odd cylinder expansion issues, that kill the rings in short order.
It works fine in pinned ring and horizontal cylinder applications.