Now, finding a good machine shop is the challenge. Components are more reliable and available, but talented people with modern technology is not abundant.
@@kendavis1198 Daves/Monster... offers only completes (ie longblocks).... 16week turnaround (they have a good reputation and fair shipping prices) ... if you want to do your own build... still difficult to find a shop. Daves (MonsterEngine) usesgood practices and machinery... They are a little fuzzy on their hone specs and really don't talk about that, even though they have a decent Rottler H85 and TraceBoss measuring .... @monsterengines
This is anecdotal but fits this video. We were a budget nitro funny car in the late 90's into the 2000's. Oil dilution was a major concern. Warm up oil would come out a very milky, light butterscotch color and was a throw away item. We were constantly looking for ways to cut costs and after a night of bench racing and being informed that there would be a new piston and ring order being made shortly, I decided to call Total Seal to see what they had and what the pricing was. I handed the pricing and info to the car owner, he was skeptical, the next time I saw him and the decision was made. At our first race with the TotalSeal rings the warm up oil would come out a very dark butterscotch and could be reused for a second warm up. The oil savings more than made up for the cost of the rings. Sometimes there are reasons other than horsepower that get you to try something new.
@@TurboJohn74 The potential oil life extension, is what I'd be interested in. Wonder what the service life of a typical syn. oil would be, if gap less rings were used in a hydrogen fueled motor?
Stock 6.7 cummins are really beefy units. A stock block and crank have been north of 3000whp. They dont really last but they can make the number. The one thing i havent figured out is why an OEM hasnt used gapless rings. You would think with tightening restrictions on emmisions and efficiency, getting 1% power for almost no R&D and a drop in blow by it would be a no brainer.
@@TotalSeal Obviously it's patented, but that just means Total Seal & OEMs are choosing not to work together since the benefits apparently aren't worth it?
@@TotalSealA friend of mine works at Paccar / Daf engine departement. I am sure they have tested it. But OEM is a different world. The block needs to do 1 millon miles...under numerous conditions and tests. So maybe it might benefit for e.g. efficiency in the first 300k miles but starts wearing out after that and with 600k miles its benefit turns equal and than starting going negative. On top of that the rings will be higher in price so... But I will ask and maybe he has an answer. They run into different things than we do at ' short track ' users ........ E.g. Had a chat with head of departement about modifying porting. Very interesting with limitations on seats , construction of head , lines of force through head , bolts , block , main cap bolts , fuel return bores , etc etc etc etc. Its a different and very interesting field .
I think cost is the main reason oems don't put gapless rings in their engines. If you build a thousand engines and the rings cost a hundred dollars more for example, you just saved $100,000 by using conventional rings.
Great test.I wonder what the longevity of the hapless ring is like? Will it last 500 thousand km like a conventional ring in a daily driver?? I’m wondering if it would go well in my Toyota 12HT that I’m building?
How about including the speed of air dimpled thermal coated pistons, poly quad valve modification, super porting the heads and applying thermal barrier/dispersant coatings?
@@TotalSeal That's great! I've watched the video where you connected with and met Dave and the gang at Dave's Auto Center in Centerville UT. Those speed of air pistons are the best thing for any ICE, especially the gdi and diesel (CRD and IDI) engines.
Hey, could you guys cover the use of upper cylinder lubricants like Lucas ucl or equivalent? Like is it helpful, hurtful, or a waste of money? I’ve always seen both sides while researching but of course, it’s always just another opinion, never science or data. Thanks for all you guys do, new sub from me!
I wish gapless rings were standard in all engines. Everything seems to be better with them. My 355’s oil stayed cleaner much longer with gapless rings and oil consumption was unmeasurable.
While this data and information is great. I'd love to see long term testing. Gas and Diesel. I chose not to use gapless rings on a few of my daily drivers as I couldn't find any non racers that had used them more than 20k miles. Even a few people that said they needed to rebuild again 50k miles later.
Would a gapless 2nd ring be a bad idea on a high reving gas engine due to trapping gasses between the rings? Would a gapless top ring work better in that case? Why doesn't every engine use gapless rings?
This one didn’t have the hone with the deeper valleys. I’d suspect, the HP gains and blow-by at the 1,000 HP tune up would have been greater if the hone was different. At the 800 HP tune up, the Gapless ring was 35 HP better…
Exactly. I only burn 65-75 gallons a day in each of my log trucks, but the horsepower is from the combo becoming more efficient and the lack of soot in the oil and blow-by reduction is showing how much better it's sealed up and how it's keeping the work in the cylinder... which would definitely help with oil change intervals too! Jeremy Wagler is a great guy, has always done an incredible job and is always looking for something that can be improved, so I couldn't think of a better guy to perform that test!
How do they solve the expansion of the rings, surely the rings will gall and seize, I understand the stepped ring concept but a solid circle ring??????
@@GWAYGWAY1 it is not an extra ring or ring groove. The two rings assemble together in thev same groove and are the same size as the original ring it replaces.
With a back to back test… them standard rings in all reality should have 1500 miles on them to really seat the cylinder well… was that the case in this test? Back to back the total seal ring design should seal better IF the OEM rings don’t have proper running time to seal?
@@ElmerRacing Actually, the split ring design used to make a Gapless ring would not work for a Keystone style ring. It would have to be done a different way.
I've read that turbo engines (gasoline) need a bigger second ring gap to prevent ring flutter.. but I'm guessing there's no issues with the gapless ring. The top ring is probably sitting there thinking " there's no point in me being here" 😂
Has Total Seal or anyone else done a comparison test of a custom piston set that used a rectangular top ring instead of a Keystone, and then made the top rings gap less instead of the second . Even on a turbo engine I would think that would be better than a gap less second. Not all diesels use Keystone top rings, VW doesn't, I don't know about Mercedes or BMW car diesels. Audi is a division of VW and they won the 24 Hours of Le Mon a bunch of times with a diesel car. Maybe the engine had a keystone top ring, but since it was a VW engine , maybe not. Perkins had a 5 ring piston on at least 1 of their engines back in the 60's, the third groove had 3 thin cupped rings in that third groove, 2 facing toward the single ring that was cupped against the pair. So gap less is nothing new. Today with thin steel rings being more common , it wouldn't be that hard to stack 2 rings in the same top groove. And why do hard pulling engines have a problem with the top ring sticking anyway? Isn't that caused by EGR and closed crankcase venting? Case IH does all of their emission control in the exhaust , no pathetic EGR. Problem solved!
Now, finding a good machine shop is the challenge. Components are more reliable and available, but talented people with modern technology is not abundant.
DAVES AUTO CENTER IN UTAH, and they LOVE DIESEL'S!!! Shop is like an Operating Room....
Agreed!
Wagler, D&J, Scheid, lots of good diesel machine shops out there!
@@kendavis1198 Daves/Monster... offers only completes (ie longblocks).... 16week turnaround (they have a good reputation and fair shipping prices) ... if you want to do your own build... still difficult to find a shop. Daves (MonsterEngine) usesgood practices and machinery... They are a little fuzzy on their hone specs and really don't talk about that, even though they have a decent Rottler H85 and TraceBoss measuring .... @monsterengines
This is anecdotal but fits this video. We were a budget nitro funny car in the late 90's into the 2000's. Oil dilution was a major concern. Warm up oil would come out a very milky, light butterscotch color and was a throw away item. We were constantly looking for ways to cut costs and after a night of bench racing and being informed that there would be a new piston and ring order being made shortly, I decided to call Total Seal to see what they had and what the pricing was. I handed the pricing and info to the car owner, he was skeptical, the next time I saw him and the decision was made. At our first race with the TotalSeal rings the warm up oil would come out a very dark butterscotch and could be reused for a second warm up. The oil savings more than made up for the cost of the rings. Sometimes there are reasons other than horsepower that get you to try something new.
Total seal could sponsor just stop oil 🙂
Absolutely! Thanks for sharing!
@@gothicpagan.666 Please, share your takeaway from the video.
@@TurboJohn74 The potential oil life extension, is what I'd be interested in. Wonder what the service life of a typical syn. oil would be, if gap less rings were used in a hydrogen fueled motor?
Probably one of the best back to backs for rings I’ve seen and to impress him I’m sure isn’t a easy task. Awesome video 🤜🤛
Thanks! Jeremy is awesome to work with. Testing is everything with him.
Awesome to see more diesel content! The BMW M57 needs some gapless ring love. They have a lot of blow by.
Thanks!
So glad I found this channel
Welcome to the neighborhood!
Good back to back comparison. Thanks for sharing 👍
Thanks for watching!
Beautiful guys. Love Your Rings.
Thank you!
Great video thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching!
I love Lake. I coudl listen to him all day just to learn as much as possible about his knowledge on Both Rings and Tribology.
Thanks!!!
Now they need to re hone the bore and see if they can get more
That's right!
Ill be using gapless on my next engine build!
Good stuff 🎉
Very good stuff
Appreciate it
Good video.
Glad you enjoyed it
Of course Lake is going to analyze the oil. He gets to wear his lab coat, pocket protector and big 👓
LOL
Stock 6.7 cummins are really beefy units. A stock block and crank have been north of 3000whp. They dont really last but they can make the number.
The one thing i havent figured out is why an OEM hasnt used gapless rings. You would think with tightening restrictions on emmisions and efficiency, getting 1% power for almost no R&D and a drop in blow by it would be a no brainer.
Patented technology…
@@TotalSeal Obviously it's patented, but that just means Total Seal & OEMs are choosing not to work together since the benefits apparently aren't worth it?
@@TotalSealA friend of mine works at Paccar / Daf engine departement. I am sure they have tested it. But OEM is a different world. The block needs to do 1 millon miles...under numerous conditions and tests. So maybe it might benefit for e.g. efficiency in the first 300k miles but starts wearing out after that and with 600k miles its benefit turns equal and than starting going negative. On top of that the rings will be higher in price so... But I will ask and maybe he has an answer. They run into different things than we do at ' short track ' users ........
E.g. Had a chat with head of departement about modifying porting. Very interesting with limitations on seats , construction of head , lines of force through head , bolts , block , main cap bolts , fuel return bores , etc etc etc etc. Its a different and very interesting field .
I think cost is the main reason oems don't put gapless rings in their engines. If you build a thousand engines and the rings cost a hundred dollars more for example, you just saved $100,000 by using conventional rings.
@@TotalSeal "patented technology" huh? So are you saying the reason OEMs don't use your rings is that you won't let them? That seems dumb.
Great video! What ring gap (gapless rings) do you recommend for NA and boosted applications? Thank you!
th-cam.com/video/_NxFRoN-Qok/w-d-xo.html
Great info! Lots of naysayers implying the CGI Cummins was weak were just proved wrong.
Glad to help!
Very interesting.
Glad you think so!
Great test.I wonder what the longevity of the hapless ring is like? Will it last 500 thousand km like a conventional ring in a daily driver?? I’m wondering if it would go well in my Toyota 12HT that I’m building?
They have the same durability as a conventional ring.
Id like to see project farm due his oil bearing test on each oil gapless and normal gap ring to see the wear difference
How about including the speed of air dimpled thermal coated pistons, poly quad valve modification, super porting the heads and applying thermal barrier/dispersant coatings?
The Speed of Air pistons are the next diesel engine test!
@@TotalSeal That's great! I've watched the video where you connected with and met Dave and the gang at Dave's Auto Center in Centerville UT. Those speed of air pistons are the best thing for any ICE, especially the gdi and diesel (CRD and IDI) engines.
I saw a video (Extreme DIY) where he put magnets on his oil filter and when he pulled it apart you could see the metal stuck on it
Was there a different oil used in the gapless ring runs? The results sheet shows quite a difference in the additives.
Same oil. Just a fresh fill.
Hey, could you guys cover the use of upper cylinder lubricants like Lucas ucl or equivalent? Like is it helpful, hurtful, or a waste of money? I’ve always seen both sides while researching but of course, it’s always just another opinion, never science or data. Thanks for all you guys do, new sub from me!
Thanks for the suggestion!
I wish gapless rings were standard in all engines.
Everything seems to be better with them.
My 355’s oil stayed cleaner much longer with gapless rings and oil consumption was unmeasurable.
Thanks for sharing!
While this data and information is great. I'd love to see long term testing. Gas and Diesel. I chose not to use gapless rings on a few of my daily drivers as I couldn't find any non racers that had used them more than 20k miles. Even a few people that said they needed to rebuild again 50k miles later.
Would a gapless 2nd ring be a bad idea on a high reving gas engine due to trapping gasses between the rings? Would a gapless top ring work better in that case? Why doesn't every engine use gapless rings?
A gapless 2nd is great for Boosted engines. A Gapless top is ideal for a NA competition engine.
Why is it you guys used the gapless as second ring? We got it as Top Ring.
Thanks!
A diesel top ring is a Keystone style, which can't be Gapless.
gapless is def the way to go
Right on!
What about doing a test on the golf ball pistons!
That's next!
@@TotalSeal Super can’t wait! Thank you I enjoy your level.
Does total seal have gapless diesel rings for the VW 2.0L?
We can make a Gapless 2nd for almost any engine!
Lake, what were the honing specs in this engine? Did they go aggressive on the valleys like you’ve done recently? What about their cross hatch angle?
This one didn’t have the hone with the deeper valleys. I’d suspect, the HP gains and blow-by at the 1,000 HP tune up would have been greater if the hone was different. At the 800 HP tune up, the Gapless ring was 35 HP better…
@@TotalSeal Wow, so with your latest hone specs, this engine would of done even better on the blow by and sealing.
@@GNX157absolutely!
I need mack e6 size rings! Wanna rebuild a couple of motors
Exactly. I only burn 65-75 gallons a day in each of my log trucks, but the horsepower is from the combo becoming more efficient and the lack of soot in the oil and blow-by reduction is showing how much better it's sealed up and how it's keeping the work in the cylinder... which would definitely help with oil change intervals too! Jeremy Wagler is a great guy, has always done an incredible job and is always looking for something that can be improved, so I couldn't think of a better guy to perform that test!
Contact our tech support team at 623-587-7400. We can make Gapless 2nd rings for you.
Contact our tech support team at 623-587-7400. We can make Gapless 2nd rings for you.
The engine came up faster and smoother with the gapless rings.
Yep!
How do they solve the expansion of the rings, surely the rings will gall and seize, I understand the stepped ring concept but a solid circle ring??????
The Gapless ring is a two piece ring. Each piece has a gap for thermal expansion, but those gaps are installed 180 degrees opposite of each other.
@@TotalSeal thanks for that ,but why not. Just another ring groove and ring, friction too high?????
@@GWAYGWAY1 it is not an extra ring or ring groove. The two rings assemble together in thev same groove and are the same size as the original ring it replaces.
@@themotoroilgeek rings rotate in their grooves unless pegged like two strokes are, what would stop them rotating until the end mated and caught?
@@GWAYGWAY1 The Gapless rings interlock, so the whole assembly rotates without the two individual rings rotating opposite of each other.
With a back to back test… them standard rings in all reality should have 1500 miles on them to really seat the cylinder well… was that the case in this test?
Back to back the total seal ring design should seal better IF the OEM rings don’t have proper running time to seal?
The blow by meter said they were already broken-in (no change in blow-by run to run). Plus, only the 2nd ring was changed.
@@TotalSeal ok. Thank you for that info.
Interesting! Why gapless 2nd ring instead of top ring?
The top ring is a Keystone design, so it can't be Gapless.
@@TotalSeal That makes sense! But surely you could make a new gapless design to work with that geometry also if you really wanted to?
@@ElmerRacing Actually, the split ring design used to make a Gapless ring would not work for a Keystone style ring. It would have to be done a different way.
@@TotalSeal Yes. But there probably is another way that it could be made?
And we wanna rebuild detroit diesel old 2-strokes tooo🎉 bigger rings please
Thanks for the suggestion. That would be cool to see.
Honestly, id get a set if they weren't so expensive (or available for my miata motor)
I've read that turbo engines (gasoline) need a bigger second ring gap to prevent ring flutter.. but I'm guessing there's no issues with the gapless ring. The top ring is probably sitting there thinking " there's no point in me being here" 😂
I also follwed the instructions when I turbocharged my Mazda 323 😅 6thou per inch of bore on the top ring and 6.5 per inch on the second
Next they need to swap in some dimpled pistons.
Absolutely!
Has Total Seal or anyone else done a comparison test of a custom piston set that used a rectangular top ring instead of a Keystone, and then made the top rings gap less instead of the second . Even on a turbo engine I would think that would be better than a gap less second. Not all diesels use Keystone top rings, VW doesn't, I don't know about Mercedes or BMW car diesels. Audi is a division of VW and they won the 24 Hours of Le Mon a bunch of times with a diesel car. Maybe the engine had a keystone top ring, but since it was a VW engine , maybe not. Perkins had a 5 ring piston on at least 1 of their engines back in the 60's, the third groove had 3 thin cupped rings in that third groove, 2 facing toward the single ring that was cupped against the pair. So gap less is nothing new. Today with thin steel rings being more common , it wouldn't be that hard to stack 2 rings in the same top groove. And why do hard pulling engines have a problem with the top ring sticking anyway? Isn't that caused by EGR and closed crankcase venting? Case IH does all of their emission control in the exhaust , no pathetic EGR. Problem solved!
The drag race engines are using a rectangular top ring in the high HP diesels.
Real #SCIENCE not #Speculation !! Busting Bro Science Daily 💪💪💪💪💪
Thanks!
I would like to see what you could say about DeltaHawk DHK235 engine.
2Stoke Diesel, 2700rpm, 235HP, 202cu/3.3l, V4, 90degree, 474 ft-lbf/642 Nm
Sounds interesting!
whats old is new again it seems, quite a few engines before ww2 had rings just like that
This is going to give Subaru Fanboys PTSD
LOL
Data, it's evolutionary voltage.
Id say Gal banks is the guy TBH
Gale. Jus sayin
@@brinkee7674 In agreement , all thses guys saying they are or some one else is the guy , are just fullfin up.
Well you didn’t look hard f diesel mate ford falcon 3.998liter straight 6 just add more boost nothing else easy HP
I would probably give credit to Gale Banks as the best Diesel builder in the country. Wagler a close second.
You are delusional 😂
Well that’s a bull shit comparison!
Each endpoint only gets one Dyno pull??
How do you account for the standard deviation?
There was three dyno pulls per tune up. They made over 20 runs total on each ring set up with the 5 different fuel settings.
Please stop playing music over the dyno runs, what’s the point
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 TRUMP
Get rid of that stupid music..🤡🌎🥴🥴🥴