Their victories mean more power and performance for guys like me, I'm excited for them. I'm getting ready to have their piston rings installed in my 6.7L Cummins.
Enjoy learning from you gents but I'm here in the land down under and I learnt this about 20 years ago. Still nice to see it confirmed seeing we source most of our parts from your country
Thanks for watching. We actually found a paper from Sunnen published back in the early 80’s that showed this same strategy. I guess the old adage that there’s nothing new under the sun applies here as well…
Thank you for responding. My results came about from building and tuning RB26 engines. One could do some light mods and make close to 1000hp without opening up the motor, (other than cams and cam timing), and have no problems with breathing or piston or ring bind. Then when we built them with the American recommended clearances, all turned to sh1t. Breathing so bad one can't keep oil in the motor. Stopped and asked myself some questions......did some thermal expansion tests....and started building with OEM clearances and very fine honing. Problem solved. Applied the same principle to many American and Euro motors I build and the results are the same. Never had a problem. I do however add clearance depending on my reading of the customer as they are the biggest problem:)
You know that is a good point. Dyno Don and Total Seal are not giving away newly discovered secrets. Each of them have to stay ahead of their competitions and you are not going to hear about the leading edge stuff on TH-cam. They are going to keep them to themselves for at long as they could. That is no knock against them, but the nature of racing and business. For most of us amateur motor heads, this is good relevant info.
@@TotalSeal I REALLY appreciate these guys sharing their info as I'm no one and have never heard anyone give this kind of info. At the time of my thermal piston expansion test......and I've done a number since, I tested oem cast vs half a dozen forged, (also tested blocks. Cast and aly), all various brands so I don't know the material used, but all the forged ones expanded LESS. I have built two of my own motors with 0.0005'' interference.I had to be very gentle on the running in and make sure the tune was spot on so as not to shock the pistons with temp. There was no problem with either motor their whole time cycle. Building a motor like this means one can re-ring a motor a number of times with just a rehone. Piston skirts can be recoated for about $25 here to regain the clearance desired.
Thats Is incredible. Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge. That has saved thousands and thousands of dollars and steel. Never figure that much information out 7 inches of vacuum at 8000 my thinking was you can't but you did. Mind blown I won't a motor that can do that !!
@TotalSeal wow I didn't know that either so when I've took all the Engines to the machine shop over the last 27 years. They've all been done wrong. Then is what you're telling me!! Mind blown !!
I‘d love to see you develop a strategy for modern diesel engines (alloy block, piezo common rail injection, high boost, etc.) and show us how to reduce blow by to a minimum. Always very educational 👌🏻
Very interesting stuff guys. In relation to a street motor, obviously the improvement in ring seal is still an advantage, but how would it affect oil consumption as more oil is being left in the valley's above the ring during piston travel?
How much material do you remove with the 600 grit diamond and the brush? If you remove half a thousand with the 600 grit, you would clear the deep valleys you made with the more rough stone right? So in this case, why would you use a 120 stone and then the 600 grit? I understand the process of removing the peaks but i think the 600 grit diamond would remove enough material to not only clear the peaks but the valleys you made and replace them with less deeper ones. I hope you understood my question, i watch you from spain thank you
With the 600 CBN, we are not measuring stock removal. Instead we are counting the number of strokes. 8 to 12 strokes with about 20% load typically does the job.
Lake/Donny Is that the Trace Boss output for THIS engine in the discussion? Rvk 95 µin Rpk 6.8 µin Rk 45 µin Rmq 54% What was your stone combo ? (diamond/CBN/brush/de-burr-block) … what grit? How fresh/clean was the abrasive?? Is that straight out of the hone prior to run … or a post run reading ? Post break in numbers would be real helpful in understanding what’s going on ‘the whole picture’ … The Rmq number is the most intriguing in the metric you show in this video.
Sounds like they are running the pistons tighter in the bores than normal. Not sure how good this would work in the real world where engine temperatures could fluctuate in hot weather and may cause the pistons to expand and lock up in the bore. They said there was more information to come. May be this will be all explained later.
@@GaryH-pw9cm, in another video, they said they can tighten the bores slightly, because there is more oiling available in the crosshatch. They also said they ran it right up to 8 or 9000 rpm. Unless there's other problems keeping the fluids cool, it's hard to imagine worse conditions than that.
Also the improved wear resistance throughout the motor - piston skirts, rocker pivots, valve guides, rod bearings, cam chain . . . . less wear is longer life.
I wonder how much of this could be applied to a stock cast iron block engine. The way I understand it is that the additional vacuum in the crank case is pulling the first and or second ring down against the piston causing a better seal of the rings in the piston. And the better seal of the rings is creating less blow by intern causing a higher vacuum in the crank case. So both of these help each other. Also using gas ported rings and this new hone procedure at the same time. I would guess the crankcase vacuum is from a vacuum pump. Would this apply to a PCV type system if the incoming air was restricted? In their excitement some of the information presented is not very clear. More diagrams and animations would help for people like me.🙂
@@GaryH-pw9cmII wouldn’t doubt that the guys are running a “power free” style system of vacuum pumping that relies upon the “Venturi Effect” similar to what you’ll see on other race engines. After all, a vacuum pump is rarely seen outside of diesel applications and then it’s usually reserved for stuff like the power brake when it’s still vacuum assisted AND the HVAC controls.
" . . . steel block . . ." Buddy cast iron drain pipe is about as far from "steel" as you can get - but engine blocks are NEVER "steel" and a lot closer to drain pipe than (even the very highest carbon) steel.
@@TotalSeal I understand this but it comes off as fake. It looks bad! I'm not saying stop being excited... But the OVER the top expression makes what you guys do look fake! Hence the "Street Outlaws' comment...
@@TotalSeal kicking goals blokes !!! Good stuff from down under you pair of mad scientists hahahah ignore this bloke who’s not only unable to see the genuine work you pair have accomplished during your march for the holy grail let alone how satisfying it is to see a result of this kind and with such a distinction is truely a well earned victory and milestone if ever I seen one. Congratulations to the both of you and thanks for all the hard work you both do, words couldn’t describe how helpful with my projects your work has been. Dedication like this is how we progress and move forward and I acknowledge the almost all consuming obsession that this level of dedication is at and the sheer strain it can have on all the other aspects in your lives and I thank you for this level of determination to see the limits of this path and am looking forward to what new things you will bring to light along the way guys keep it up !!!!
Easy to understand teaching,i can't thank u ,I i Thank God for men like u,
So nice of you
Interesting to see two people get so excited over piston rings. 😊
Their victories mean more power and performance for guys like me, I'm excited for them. I'm getting ready to have their piston rings installed in my 6.7L Cummins.
I know, right?
It's crucial
Be interesting to cover the proper installation of a PCV / vacuum system. Where to draw from, pressure across the lube system, etc.
Thanks for the suggestion
Dyno Don & Lake Jr’s excitement and passion are contagious. Good job Gentleman!
Thanks!
Piston seal is critical, these guys are
Making big improvements for all of us to
Enjoy
Thanks!
This is such a great you tube channel. Thanks for sharing so much good hard earned info.
Thanks!
It's a great thing that you guys answer relevant questions for your viewers a lot of youtubers do not.
Glad you think so!
Enjoy learning from you gents but I'm here in the land down under and I learnt this about 20 years ago. Still nice to see it confirmed seeing we source most of our parts from your country
Thanks for watching. We actually found a paper from Sunnen published back in the early 80’s that showed this same strategy. I guess the old adage that there’s nothing new under the sun applies here as well…
Thank you for responding. My results came about from building and tuning RB26 engines. One could do some light mods and make close to 1000hp without opening up the motor, (other than cams and cam timing), and have no problems with breathing or piston or ring bind. Then when we built them with the American recommended clearances, all turned to sh1t. Breathing so bad one can't keep oil in the motor. Stopped and asked myself some questions......did some thermal expansion tests....and started building with OEM clearances and very fine honing. Problem solved. Applied the same principle to many American and Euro motors I build and the results are the same. Never had a problem. I do however add clearance depending on my reading of the customer as they are the biggest problem:)
You know that is a good point. Dyno Don and Total Seal are not giving away newly discovered secrets. Each of them have to stay ahead of their competitions and you are not going to hear about the leading edge stuff on TH-cam. They are going to keep them to themselves for at long as they could. That is no knock against them, but the nature of racing and business. For most of us amateur motor heads, this is good relevant info.
@@slicedbread9003 You would be surprised how little we are actually holding back.
@@TotalSeal I REALLY appreciate these guys sharing their info as I'm no one and have never heard anyone give this kind of info. At the time of my thermal piston expansion test......and I've done a number since, I tested oem cast vs half a dozen forged, (also tested blocks. Cast and aly), all various brands so I don't know the material used, but all the forged ones expanded LESS. I have built two of my own motors with 0.0005'' interference.I had to be very gentle on the running in and make sure the tune was spot on so as not to shock the pistons with temp. There was no problem with either motor their whole time cycle. Building a motor like this means one can re-ring a motor a number of times with just a rehone. Piston skirts can be recoated for about $25 here to regain the clearance desired.
Good job Brad!
Thanks Lake Speed Jr! Great stuff!
Thanks!
What a great duo!
Thanks!
Nice job... Thx for sharing the info.
Thanks for watching!
Would it be possible to gas port gapless piston rings?
Yes! The Engine Performance Expo LS has Gas Ported Gapless rings!
Thats Is incredible. Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge. That has saved thousands and thousands of dollars and steel. Never figure that much information out 7 inches of vacuum at 8000 my thinking was you can't but you did. Mind blown I won't a motor that can do that !!
Current NASCAR engines pull 24 inches of vacuum at 9,000 RPM
@TotalSeal wow I didn't know that either so when I've took all the Engines to the machine shop over the last 27 years. They've all been done wrong. Then is what you're telling me!! Mind blown !!
@@rickybailey7123 If the engine is a dry sump, it can run vacuum for a HP advantage.
I‘d love to see you develop a strategy for modern diesel engines (alloy block, piezo common rail injection, high boost, etc.) and show us how to reduce blow by to a minimum. Always very educational 👌🏻
What STOPPED These Pistons From FAILING?
th-cam.com/video/3bm49cA8Dcg/w-d-xo.html
Very interesting stuff guys. In relation to a street motor, obviously the improvement in ring seal is still an advantage, but how would it affect oil consumption as more oil is being left in the valley's above the ring during piston travel?
This specific hone is not appropriate for street engines, unless you are running on E85 and boost.
@@TotalSealwould it have to be full E85? I run E50 on a boosted engine
@@aikidokamksless Rvk for E50. 65 to 70 on the Rvk would be good.
Two grown men that excited over a working PCV valve !!
So ignore the power curves because there were hard parts changes besides the bore finish and rings is how I heard that.
Makes perfect sense.
Thanks for watching!
What abrasive grit size makes valleys the depth shown on your profilometer ?
Anything. It's a digital microscope.
140 grit diamonds
Why can’t I see?
I wonder if the added vacuum will keep the moisture in the oil lower by boiling it out under vacuum?
Yep, it does
Please you have to do more about vacuum gaining on different type of engines
Noted!
How much material do you remove with the 600 grit diamond and the brush?
If you remove half a thousand with the 600 grit, you would clear the deep valleys you made with the more rough stone right? So in this case, why would you use a 120 stone and then the 600 grit? I understand the process of removing the peaks but i think the 600 grit diamond would remove enough material to not only clear the peaks but the valleys you made and replace them with less deeper ones.
I hope you understood my question, i watch you from spain thank you
With the 600 CBN, we are not measuring stock removal. Instead we are counting the number of strokes. 8 to 12 strokes with about 20% load typically does the job.
Lake/Donny
Is that the Trace Boss output for THIS engine in the discussion?
Rvk 95 µin
Rpk 6.8 µin
Rk 45 µin
Rmq 54%
What was your stone combo ? (diamond/CBN/brush/de-burr-block) … what grit? How fresh/clean was the abrasive??
Is that straight out of the hone prior to run … or a post run reading ?
Post break in numbers would be real helpful in understanding what’s going on ‘the whole picture’ …
The Rmq number is the most intriguing in the metric you show in this video.
Yes it is!
That was out of the hone!
What do you think about magnets on oil filters?
They can be helpful
Is the dual coating available on the AP steal ring? Is that dual coating different that the standard PVD coating that comes on the AP steel?
Not yet. We are still field testing them.
Nitrated coating ob rings? I never knew about this. Wow!!!😮
We have some trick stuff!!!
What does the machining and block work cost like that
Sounds like they are running the pistons tighter in the bores than normal. Not sure how good this would work in the real world where engine temperatures could fluctuate in hot weather and may cause the pistons to expand and lock up in the bore. They said there was more information to come. May be this will be all explained later.
@@GaryH-pw9cm, in another video, they said they can tighten the bores slightly, because there is more oiling available in the crosshatch. They also said they ran it right up to 8 or 9000 rpm. Unless there's other problems keeping the fluids cool, it's hard to imagine worse conditions than that.
He said itza $ 70,000 engine.
If you have to ask, you can't afford it.
🤔
Ball park is $500
Does the BMEP go up noticeably?
-0.0000 to +0.0002 WOW. Now that's holding tolerance!!!
That’s why Brad is the man!
Do you all run a piston skirt coating?
Not on this engine.
Lake, i am willing to wipe down piston rings and do QC for 15 years if that means some of your knowledge rubs off and i can feed my family!
That’s very kind.
Helps temperature keep low pushes the heat out helps
should cross hatch angle change at the top and bottom of the piston stroke because of the differences in piston speed at tdc and bdc
We’ve seen the more consistent the cross hatch is from top to bottom, the better the engines run.
Ring nuts..but yes its the most important place in engine.
Agreed!
What weight oil is in the mobile1 drum in dyno room?
That’s 0W-50 Racing oil.
How would this affect say rebuilding a 3.0 liter v-6 in a Ford escape?
Very different because the application is completely different.
@@TotalSeal I get what you guys built that engine for, but I'm wondering do you sell piston ring kits for engine rebuilds that aren't race motors?
@@russellweber3466 Yes we do! Contact our technical sales department for details - 623-587-7400
The improved
Ring seal that comes
With thicker oil outweighs the loss
From extra drag on the pump and crank.
Also the improved wear resistance throughout the motor - piston skirts, rocker pivots, valve guides, rod bearings, cam chain . . . . less wear is longer life.
Eevn my wife was excited at getitng 3 more inches!
Clearance put a turbo fan on the exhaust system
Didn’t catch how much extra ponies you picked up ? 😎
I wonder how much of this could be applied to a stock cast iron block engine. The way I understand it is that the additional vacuum in the crank case is pulling the first and or second ring down against the piston causing a better seal of the rings in the piston. And the better seal of the rings is creating less blow by intern causing a higher vacuum in the crank case. So both of these help each other. Also using gas ported rings and this new hone procedure at the same time. I would guess the crankcase vacuum is from a vacuum pump. Would this apply to a PCV type system if the incoming air was restricted? In their excitement some of the information presented is not very clear. More diagrams and animations would help for people like me.🙂
@@GaryH-pw9cmII wouldn’t doubt that the guys are running a “power free” style system of vacuum pumping that relies upon the “Venturi Effect” similar to what you’ll see on other race engines. After all, a vacuum pump is rarely seen outside of diesel applications and then it’s usually reserved for stuff like the power brake when it’s still vacuum assisted AND the HVAC controls.
Yes, this can be applied to iron block engines as well, just a different variant of the hone.
" . . . steel block . . ." Buddy cast iron drain pipe is about as far from "steel" as you can get - but engine blocks are NEVER "steel" and a lot closer to drain pipe than (even the very highest carbon) steel.
I’m guessing there was no horsepower gain, only vacuum.
It gained everywhere up to peak it seems.
There was a power gain, but they were also detuning the engine at the same time.
@TotalSeal doesn't that mean overall more efficient?
that literally sucked
Why
its a video about suction
LOL
This is a BIG deal.
Please call down the over the top excitement! It just looks fake and made up! This isn't Street Outlaws guys!
That’s not fake. We truly love this stuff.
@@TotalSeal I understand this but it comes off as fake. It looks bad! I'm not saying stop being excited... But the OVER the top expression makes what you guys do look fake! Hence the "Street Outlaws' comment...
@@TotalSeal kicking goals blokes !!! Good stuff from down under you pair of mad scientists hahahah ignore this bloke who’s not only unable to see the genuine work you pair have accomplished during your march for the holy grail let alone how satisfying it is to see a result of this kind and with such a distinction is truely a well earned victory and milestone if ever I seen one.
Congratulations to the both of you and thanks for all the hard work you both do, words couldn’t describe how helpful with my projects your work has been.
Dedication like this is how we progress and move forward and I acknowledge the almost all consuming obsession that this level of dedication is at and the sheer strain it can have on all the other aspects in your lives and I thank you for this level of determination to see the limits of this path and am looking forward to what new things you will bring to light along the way guys keep it up !!!!
@@aussieblokeiiikii9169 Thanks mate!
Call me naive . I never knew a crank case could go negative. 🫣
That’s the purpose of your PCV system. It’s also handy for preventing oil leaks on the driveway.
Oh yeah!
@@TotalSeal m
My only personal reference is my own engine..... Probably +25lbs pressure. 🤣
@@ToddAdams1234 I understand with a PCV system. Are they using a PCV on a 900+ HP engine. 😳
This is a BIG deal.
This is a BIG deal.