The best thing that HP Lovecraft ever did was not copyright his works, I love how so many different universes are connected by it either directly or being heavily influenced by it, it's like it's own multiverse XD
You're mistaken, Lovecraft works were copyrighted by his estate, however copyright normally does not exceed 50 years after the authors death. Lovecraft works have been in the public domain internationally since 2008. However that said, Lovecraft was very generous with his universe and other authors wrote in that universe, including Ambrose Bierce, to everyone's benefit.
Well, sure, this is how mythologies are created. People propose stories, people chose the ones they like, and those stories survive during millennia. Humanity screwed up the day we acepted concepts like canon, copyright (at least the abuse of it) or franchise. Now decadence, decadence and stupidity.
@ThisIsMyRealName Seriously. Though I think an argument could be made for season 4 being the last "real" season of GoT. At the very least, as a die hard GRRM reader, I still found it satisfying, in spite of matters like the glaring lack of Lady Stoneheart. We still got our brilliantly executed Purple Wedding, Pedro Pascal was delightful as Prince Oberon, everything involving Tyrion's trial was fantastic, especially the interplay between Peter Dinklage and Charles Dance, and the trial by combat was something brutal that I didn't know that I'd needed in my life. Tywin's death was overall highly satisfying, though Jaime's lack of mention of Tysha was definitely a sign of things to come, and not a good one. Still, I stand by my judgment that GoT died with Tywin Lannister, and that the really good actors who were killed off in the first few seasons were the lucky ones.
Dagon was actually an ancient Sumerian/Babylonian deity that Lovecraft borrowed. He did have something to do with water/seas though. Im sure in these books its more a reference to Lovecraft, though. Not trying to correct anyone, just a bit of trivia you might find interesting
@@KuLaydMahn Sumerologist here. Dagon (originally Dagan) actually was a Syrian plough and grain deity. The whole "fish" thing is based on a misunderstanding based on Hebrew, and predictably first shows up in the Old Testament - later taken up by Milton in his 'Paradise Lost', and then by HPL.
You know a world is incredibly well built when there are this many references hidden and so many subplots and hints to things beyond the comprehension of the characters
The “Oily Black Stone” or “Bloodstone” is almost definately a Robert E Howard reference. There are several other Howard, and Clark Ashton Smith bits dropped in.
Yes, but they also worked within the same mythos as Lovecraft - they all corresponded and shared ideas. And most importantly, Lovecraft never copyrighted any or his works, names, creatures, or ideas. He *wanted* other writers and artists to build on what he'd begun, which is a part of his genius in my opinion.
@@neuralmute I agree. By doing this, he was assured to make live his own creation for decades and to leave his mark on the fantasy genre. The black stone is definitely an Howard reference, as well as the Five Forts which are ancient mega structures like in some places of Hyperborea.
@@Neo587 Exactly! Lovecraft set himself up to be possibly the most influencial writer in the horror and fantasy genres by allowing his mythical world to be a playground for other writers and artists who came after, and who did the same with the ideas they'd borrowed from him. There's a very good reason that I've got a framed rubbing of Lovecraft's gravestone hanging over my bed!
@@neuralmute H.P Lovecraft was a genius. That's not a coincidence if he is quoted and mentioned as an inspiration for many authors, including George R.R. Martin, who put Lovecraftian elements everywhere in his world (and I'm convinced that Euron, the Drowned God and the Great Other are coming directly from Martin's passion for H.P.L). For me, he is as important and iconic as J.R.R. Tolkien to the fantasy genre. He was a pionneer for his time and the next generations, his work and universe being a major inspiration for many now. And where Tolkien is simplistic and classic in his approach of sentient beings, like an idealisation of existence, I strongly prefer Lovecraft's and Martin's deep and dark explorations and descriptions of the conscious beings' behaviors. In truth, they appear to be more important for me than Tolkien's work. Clark Ashton Smith and Robert. E. Howard were excellent writers as well and close friends of Howard Philips Lovecraft. They formed a brilliant and extraordinary circle of pionneer writers. I like Martin's world and works even more, knowing and seeing that he is heavily inspired by their creations and discovering their incomparable marks in A Song of Ice and Fire. It's a majestic and immense tapestry of mysteries, and in my opinion it's the major reason why we are all here talking about ASoIaF. This mix of influences and talents created a true fascination for this whole tangible world ;)
Hastur is also known as the king in yellow, he rules in a city with a yellow sky filled with black stars, this city is Carcosa. This is also a city in Essos and in the books a yellow emperor rules there. Just something I thought you should know.
You know what, I think you might’ve solved the biggest mystery of the new season of the show “From” with the mysterious “Man in Yellow” I would not be surprised if Lovecraft’s work plays a role in the show
Also In his earlier book, "Fevre Dream" Martin's main character is Abner Marsh very similar to a character in "The Shadow over Innsmouth" named Obed Marsh. Both boat captains too.
I recently read Fevre Dream and loved it. I also noticed a few references (if you can call them that since FD came out about a decade before the GoT). Like someone said "the night is dark, and the day is long" and someone even said "of fire and blood". Sorry for the long comment
i thought about something different: as joshua york tells abner about the origin and history of the "vampires", he mentions a black city that they seek and want to revive or something like that. now, look at all these lovecraftian influences, why shouldn't this city be like cosmically connected to different dimensions, like the world of ice and fire. Well, think of stygai or asshai or so, and then just think about how freaking cool it would be if we meet some "vampires" in a vision of euron/aeron/melisandre/dany/bran or even in fact!!!
The concept of people living shorter and shorter as time passes from the peek of a golden age civilization is not just biblical, its a long and very well established in folklore/myth/fantasy settings. It can represent a few different things, but it is often ether a dilution of a the purity of an ideal state of living (sin free), or a lose of purity of blood (from some sort of platonic ideal state), often both. Incidentally, one of the ideas of the philosopher stone, and the immortality it gave, come from its ability to reverse this state.
Yes and as what we know of civilization those folklore likely descended from the same story. And the philosophers stone was always an allegory for overcoming limitations through science.
Ancient cultures around the world repeat this idea, it is specifically present in all the Dharmic religions. The idea is that we go from big to small, moral and wise to immoral and stupid, and then back again, in an endless, slow cycle.
@@thezerowulf507 That is a very modern view of the philosopher's stone, and has nothing really to do with the origins of the notion, which were in the thaumatological and esoteric teachings of the alchemists of medieval Europe.
My two favorite ASOIAF youtubers (minus lady greenhand) talking lovecraft. How have I not watched this yet. No gods can ever be trusted because they can never be held to human ideals and virtues.
Yay for an Ideas and Order collab, and another yay for lovecraftian podcast!! We don't deserve this awesomeness!! (But I'm so happy it's been bestowed upon us!!)
On the subject of kings blood: I belive Magic in ASOIAF is fate and destiny trying to right itself. When the stallion that mounts the world was sacrificed, three dragons was awoken. In terms of the death toll, that might balance out. He was destined to conquer Westeros and that would obviously cause allot of death, destruction and kaos. Now the dragons will cause it in it's place. I belive this is the power of kings blood. Their lives were suppose to effect the world, so when they die, the world needs to right itself through magic.
To my head cannon "Kings Blood" is your ability to rule and control and how much is measured by how many generations that control lasts or by how Kingly the blood of the person who overthrows you is. Aegon I had a lot as measured by the length of his familys reign. Aenys had less kings blood than Aegon I and his son less again all the way to Aerys II who had less than Robert Baratheon. Joffrey had some of the Kings Blood as he was able to rule and make decisions but Tommen had next to none as his mother ruled in his stead. The self proclaimed kings all must have more than the inherited kings, Joffrey and Tommen, because they were able to pull nations out of their control. I would expect that of all the Lannisters, Tyrion inherited the most from his father with Cercei as a close second. The reason is Tyrions uncanny ability to find himself to a position of control behind royalty again and again no matter how much he loses. I would be he even has more than his queen as any control he peels out of the world stays for much longer, whereas Daenerys' control collapses as soon as she leaves. Its not the Robert has kings blood because he is king. He is king because he had kings blood. They are drawn to power, and naturally find themself at the top of any heirarchy they join. I suspect that R'hllor is just the first dragon. Ancient and giant beyond compare. Powerful enough that they are indistinguishable from a god. The Other is obviously and blatantly the night king is the other. I find it poetic as well that a great beast demanding our blood fights for our survival... and a man that walks as us and grants us immortality is our death.
Shivers down my spine of the chemical change in my mind ,listening to all these therios of acient myths, lovecraft and cosmic horror I'm dreaming good tonight Quinn and the order of the greenhand epic fuckin epic!
30:00 Not "king's blood," as in direct descent from any person who wore a crown at some point, but "Kings' Blood" as in mythic hero divine blood that innately destines the bloodline for sacral kingship. I can see both having some magical properties but the former definitely being much more potent, without even going into the D&D sorcerer class.
What if the Church of Starry Wisdom is the Faith of the Seven? After all, for centuries or even millennia the center of the Faith was in Oldtown and the Starry Sept, which is built out of black marble.
The Faith also has a presence in Braavos, so it would be odd for Arya (who was educated by a septa) to recognize the Church's singing as something familiar
The Drowned God has always seemed fairly Lovecraftian to me. With the far East I'm not sure if that's Lore that Martin doesn't want to release yet or if it's stuff he hasn't gone that far into himself yet because he's too busy working on the ASOIAF part of the world. Listening to this was awesome, hearing a couple of pret-tolkenian fantasy scholars shooting the shit and coming out with material for another PhD thesis.
Hey Quinn, I just wanted to let you know that you should send in a recording of you doing an A Song of Ice & Fire reading as an application to become George's new Reader for official audiobooks. Your Reading Voice is amazing and I feel like it would be a missed opportunity if you didn't. From a Fan -Dillon
@@YourGraceMyLady I have no idea why either. Quinn is a disgustingly bad narrator in comparison to someone like Roy Dotrice so its baffling to me that some of his fans think he can do it. lol maybe they think he'll acknowledge their existence if they blow enough smoke up his ass.
@@carmendiez5214 They're just angry because they don't have a nice narrating voice. Quinn has a great voice. I like listening to his channel while I work and before I sleep. I've just started reading Dune because of him.
The idea of the Human Emperor and his 'immortal empire' is clearly inspired by Chinese mythology. In chinese mythology, through martial arts, internal alchemy, etc, man can transcend flesh and attain _longevity_ together with superhuman abilities and even special powers very analogous to _magic_ . I'm quite sure GRRM has adapted these mythologies to some extent. After the human emperor left, at least 2 different deities descended, one of ice and one of fire, who either caused the decline of the human empire or simply availed themselves of the opportunity, _consuming_ it for themselves. I say consuming because both of them are quite clearly using humans as tools. The Valyrians and their dragons are just as much pieces as them as the Others are. This also leads me to believe the Human Emperor himself is not a native of the planet. The natives (if any) would likely be the children of the forest, werewoods, giants, unicorns, lions, etc. Though that begs the question: those are all creatures of Westeros, what about the native creatures of Essos, etc? If this idea is correct, then surely there ought to be creatures 10k years ago who first confronted these human ancestors. Another common theme in fantasy is the thinning of blood, as mentioned. The normalization of incest among the Targaerians would likely be a practice incentivized to preserve the strength of their Amethyst ancestry's blood.
It appears the 3-eyed raven took Bran’s body, and Bran was stuck in the vision/time. Is that the reason Bran keeps getting reborn? I recall the 3-eyed Raven saying he was sitting there for a thousand years waiting for Bran. That means he knew Bran was existing somewhere even before his birth?
as a greenseer Brynden can see into the future despite not understanding when something will happen. It is likely he got a greendream that Bran would arrive in his tree, he just never knew when
@@SantomPh On the other hand, there does seem to be something going on with all the Brandon Starks. The only other name that gets repeated in just about every generation like that is Aegon. Also, there are no Brandon Mormonts or Brandon Reeds (but we have Lyanna Mormont, clearly named for Lyanna Stark, for example). The only family that uses the name is the Starks. Maybe there has only ever been one Brandon Stark.
Thank you for an excellent collaboration and thoughtful discussion! Love it when you two talk Lovecraft and the mystical side of GRRM’s world-building.
I got the impression that anyone who referred to themselves as having Blood of the First Men was essentially declaring lineage from Garth. I thought Dany's visions & dreams made it pretty clear the Bloodstone Emperor was her blood ancester?
Yeah but they can arrange a proper fleet with defence, and pass the Jade Gate to reach Yi-Ti FFS, even Jorah Mormont suggests going to Yi-Ti instead of trying to reach Westeros at A Game of Thrones at some point.
This is great. I think that the King's Blood riddle is solved by the House of Black and White, or moreover, is solved by how they charge for their assassin's service differently depending on the target's importance. The power in king's blood has to do with importance, and is true by metaphor. It isn't that you can claim a rock as your land and you a king upon it, it is that a king is more important than a pauper in relative terms, and thus is more valuable a sacrifice to make. Shedding the blood of a king is pleasing to the gods because it hurts more to the people making the sacrifice than if they just took the blood of some random person. Add in that prophecy is real to a degree, and someone who is important for prophecy is also a powerful sacrifice, as is sacrificing your own child or a dragon egg.
I've wondered if there's some hint of this in the Azor Azhai myth. Before sacrificing Nissa Nissa he tells her she is the thing he loves most in the world. So is her blood important because she is important to him? Or is this just some twisted myth, perhaps a metaphor meant to teach followers of Rhllor that they should be willing to sacrifice anything the god asks for?
Had to stop the video halfway because you guys reminded me of one of my own mysteries. I sware I remember reading somewhere that one of Aegons sisters had found a giant ancient city in Southeros but every attempt at colonizing it failed so they decided not to go back. Funny thing is I cant seem to figure out where I read this lol. Any ideas
Brandon of the Bloody Blade Aegon's sisters did not go to Sothyros, although Valyria did try to colonize it 3 times with Ghis also having a go . A lone Valyrian flew her dragon south for something like 3 years and came back, reporting that the continent never seems to end. you may be thinking of Queen Nymeria, who took the Rhoynar to Sothyros, inhabiting the cities of Zemmattar and Yeen only to find the entire Yeen city abandoned later. Nymeria then took ship again
I just discovered Quinn through LML who I rediscovered after forgetting about through Alt Shift X as I was rereading this series.. you guys reinvigorated my absolute love for this series! Incredible content and analysis.
The biggest nod to Lovecraft I can find is that all these characters are fighting and dying for power, titles, family, and religion. But Beric and Jon both say that there's nothing but maddening blank, dark space after death. A black empty void that consumes all... The idea of petty human squabbles meaning absolutely nothing in the face of a force of nature, incomprehensible to the puny humans in its shadow is very Lovecraftian!
THAT was amazing! The topics, which are amazing in and of themselves, aside, both your voices just give me fuzzy feelings and I could listen to this 24/7!
This is just what I need. Gonna let this buffer for min, while I still have data, and then hopefully this will get me through the rest of the Rocky's to Denver before I have to try and load another video lol
About Shu-Niggurath: He/She/It is an outer god of fertility and change which can in some rituals eat it’s summoners and the give birth to them again as a satyr-like immortal being (kind of like that one god with three faces in ASOIAF) and it is said that in times of hardship the people of Qohor will sacrifice their own children to the black goat (the black goat of a thousand young if they are the same entity), so it could be that instead of knowledge they are seeking to make their land fertile so they can feed their people or even asking the outer goddess to strengthen their warriors to deal with enemy threats.
I just wanted to take the time to say thanks for making videos. Not just this one but all of them. I especially enjoy your videos on subjects such as these, or DUNE. You convinced me to read the books (Thank Christ) as I only knew the David Lynch version from the 80's. But anyway, thanks a ton!
Bran 9000: The throne goes to Rheagars only surviving so, Aegon, Jon Snow. Jon: I don't want it. Bran 9000: The the throne goes to Aerys 2nd born son, Jaime Lannister. Jaime: I would be a terrible king. I don't want it. Bran 9000: Next would be Cersei his eldest daughter. Cercei: Begins to laugh in triumph. Daenerys: Dracarys, and takes the throne.
Try playing a drinking game while listening to this video. Every time you hear: “lovecraftian” “lovecraft” and “for lack of a better word” take a drink. You will get shit housed folks.
I agree about Jaime and Cersei there are so many similarities between Cersei and Aerys: - they are both paranoid -wildfire makes them ecstatic -they are both extremely erratic The World of ice and fire about Aerys: „Though not the most diligent of princes, nor the most intelligent, he had an undeniable charm that won him many friends“/Jaime about Cersei in Feast for Crows: „What ever else one might say about his sister, she did know how to make men love her when she cared enough to try.“ The World of Ice and Fire:„In 265 AC, offended by the stink of King's Landing he spoke of building a 'white city' entirely of marble on the south bank of the Blackwater Rush“/Cersei to Jaime in a Feast for Crows:„'After the war I mean to build a new palace beyond the river' She had dreamed of it the night before last, a magnificent white castle surrounded by woods and gardens, long leagues from the stinks and noise of King's Landing“ World of Ice and Fire about Aerys: “None of these grandiose plans ever came to fruition; most indeed, were forgotten within a moon's turn, for Aerys seemed to grow bored...“/Jaime thinks about Cersei: „She does not lack for wits but she has no judgement and no patience.“ Jaime remembering Aerys-Storm of Swords: „All the traitors. Rossart says the are inside the walls. He's gone to make them a warm welcome“ Cersei talks about her plan to burn the tower :„'the fire may smoke a few rats from the rubble...The imp is small and cunning. He may still be in the walls. If he is, the fire will smoke him out...“ The world of Ice and Fire about Aerys:“Henceforth, His Grace told Pycelle, the realm would know for a certainty that the man who wore the crown also ruled the Seven Kingdoms”Cersei thinks at Margaerys trial: „...they would know they had but one true queen.“ It goes on and on...
The Valyrians are hardly influenced by Michael Moorcock's Melnibonéans. Ancient advance and decadent culture, they are cruel with his humans slaves (they are not), the use magic, blood rituals and they have dragons. Elric the Emperor of Melniboné is albino, with red eyes and white hair, so I'm pretty sure George RR Martin got inspired by Moorcock's books.
In my theory George R.R. Martin also was influenced by the PC Game "Rings of Medusa" (Gold) - see the Undead (Zombies and Skeletons) and the demons. And by the book of the German Professor Felix Dahn "A fight for Rome" ("A fight about Rome"). The Archetypes of the Charakters are similiar, see the psychologist C.G.Jung about it.
@@SingingSealRiana George R.R. Martin may also be inspired by Rudolf Steiner and Dieter Rüggeberg (see his website) and the 90ies Video Game "Rings of Medusa" ROM Gold (see the Undea - Skeletons and Zombis - and see the demons) and by the 19th century novel "A fight for rome" by German Professor Felix Dahn.
Has anyone tried to connect the color of the Gemstone Emperors, The Eye color of the magical creatures and/or magically inclined races. AKA, Jade: Green Eyes for Green Sight, Topaz: Yellow Eyes, also maybe GreenSight, Amethyst/Tomaline : Purple Eyes, Fire/Valeryrian, Pearl/Opal, White? Moon Singers? BloodStone; Red Eyes, Skin Changing/Warging. Dont know just a thought.
Christopher Mitchell The order has made videos connecting eye color of the gemstone emperors to people in our current timeline (it's been a while since I've seen the video so I can't actually recall the specifics right off the top of my heard, but they also made this connection, you'd probably thoroughly enjoy their vid on the subject) and actually I'm pretty sure their theory about the connections is almost exactly what you're talking about, I'll try to find which video it is and post a link for you, and if you're not already a subscriber, but you made this connection, you'd probably enjoy their content!
That Forsaken chapter really messed with my head in an existential way. Lucky for me, my favorite feeling is existential dread. I love when GRRM gives us that. He definitely pulled inspo from HP Lovecraft and it was great! On a different note, I still want to know what lies in Valyria that can injure Balerion the freaking Dread. That chapter in Fire and Blood was pure nightmare fuel and I loved it!!
I once attempted to write an alternative version of tv show's season 7 and on from them. And I had this idea that they could've used Theon in a manner George uses Aereon Damphair. Just imagine Theon being tied in Silence, even as they moored at a dock, he can't leave the sea and all. And Theon starting to see Euron as a Cthulu shaped monstrosity, standing over him, with pulsing red eyes, as Theon sees the water in his cell rising, the sea taking him. _I am being given to the Drowned God in the end_ he thinks Even I can write some interesting stuff including the magic of this world and they literally decided to throw everything out the window and just focuson the Iron Throne
Jamie's vision could be someone in the guise of his mother. His 'mother' tells him what his father dreams. Maybe that was Tywin's ambition for their children that Joanna knew well, or it is something someone else knew from watching Tywin's dreams. I'll have to reread that chapter for myself. A fascinating sequence all the same.
What if the Maesters have more information on the far east than they're letting on? Forbidden texts and sections of the Citadel gathering dusts on dark, musty shelves.
Jesse Byrd the Maesters are Westeros-centric so apart from books by Lomas Longstrider or Corlys Velaryon they likely dismiss most Eastern stuff as insane or for the likes of Marwynd.
Personally, the Citadel before the Andals invaded Westeros might have taken texts from the East. I think that over time, since it's become a much more critical, cynical, and perhaps manipulative they would focus on Westerosi texts as a source for guidance and advice since it's easier to verify sources closer to home.
Firstly, I'm certain "my lady" is an actually wonderful sort... Yet , her voice triggers me to want to do battle with every "mean girl" I've ever known... I'm so glad I could hear this conversation without her (unintentional ?) imposition. Secondly & more importantly, Quinn... You are astounding! HPL unquestionably has a SERIOUSLY complicated cultural baggage. Most all his plots boil down to insanity being the result of waking to any greater truth. Your intellect & LOVE of the western tradition of storytelling might save us all. Thank you for all you have been doing. Please continue. You might be a bit of the clue which might show us the way through our current horrors.
I know this is older content on yours but I found you last night and have been on a MAJOR binge. I wish I was using YT back in 2018. I live in NYC and only got into using this platform during the middle of the first lockdown. Literally just finished reading Cthulhu myself a moment ago after watching your Halloween special on it. You will def be seeing my name in your comments from here on out! I am hooked.
In another video, someone made a suggestion in a comment for HBO to adapt Dune as a TV series similar to ASOIAF/GOT. What does anyone think about this?
Love these videos. I read all the lovecraft works as a twenager so I probably missed some nuances, but I definitely felt the influence reading tsoiaf as an adult. In glad others felt the influence.
20:00 - 22:11 What an insight. What a horrifyingly plausible way to explain so many things in and out of story. You could really start the next big cult off a premise like that applied to a broad spectrum of current events hahaha
There are many magical and interesting things in SOFI so almost anything is possible (and I think you may be correct in things especially with ties to Lovecraft), is it also possible that much of what we know of the "The East" or other areas is actually made up within the series or the product of rumor, fear, and hate of the different or twisting of foreign religion/traditions? GRRM is has a keen sense of history and people, and people have always made up stories about things they don't understand or simply fear. A good example would be the old "here be dragons" on maps. Also people just make up legends/stories in general.. and maybe we are taking these as facts (such as Minotaur, Cyclops, etc. in our history). It would be interesting to look back in history and see what ancient people said of Asia, the middle east, and even the far north in the past and see if any of it is relevant to what is written in ASOIAF. It may not be identical but may follow similar veins. Loving the vidoes btw!
Swarm509 Absolutely. That is why the World of Ice and Fire Book gives you the Citadel's take on Planetos, which is very partial and designed to correspond to the way medieval Europe understood the rest of the world.
I always took Johann’s sadness to be that Tywin’s dream had come true but in the spirit of be carful what you wish for, his children are deeply emotionally damaged by his hand. I think it breaks Johann’s heart to see what’s become of the man she loved and her children.
Tywin's basically, destroying his family, and his line completely, by trying to control and plan everything they ever do. He raised Cersei as a pawn in his chessboard, Cersei grew up with hopes and dreams Tywin implanted, she was supposed to marry Rhaegar and be her queen. Instead she got Robert, who was half drunk, and Cersei thought he's crude and hairy. Tywin was obsessed about image so that caught with Cersei Worse, his son and heir, raised as a perfect knight, was so disillusioned by his hopes and dreams crushing by knowing that he was given his dream, the white cloack to mock his father, and he would find no honour there, and his titles, his future was stolen from him by a madman he swore to protect while Aerys rapes and tortures his wife and burning people alive. Even worse, obsessed with their own image, her children became lovers and started a whole incestious joke of his royal lineage Not to mention Tywin was not even close to being a man he pretended he was. He was literally Tyrion, a cruel, snide, witty whoremonger who couldn't resist the temptations of his body, and worse again, he traumatised his son so much, Tyrion was literally helpless about his need to connect with a woman, even a whore A whore that he deigned sleeping with, after sending his son to his death Charles Dance made a lot of people like that disgusting old fart, I tell you.
What about all the Dagon references in the books? Quite a few Greyjoys with the name and GRRM mentions how one looks very much like a phish. Such brilliant depth of writing. Great job with the podcast, very enjoyable!
Such a shame that the show didn't even touch on any of this. Ever since I found out about the eldritch references I've been so fascinated just sucks that Martin hasn't given more info on the farther parts of the world.
I agree with a lot, but I have a difference of opinion on the loss of identity in the books specifically the Stark siblings compared to Lovecraft Loss of identity. In the book, they are being manipulated by people and it's not so much that they are losing their identity as they are changing, assuming new roles and therefore new modes of thinking, after all, we could not call their experiences other than traumatic. When I see Lovecraft fall into madness due to eldrich understanding is more absolute, in comparison to what you have failed to understand everything you know about everything is meaningless and the remaining answers are so hopeless you shut down completely. However, it could be similar to what happened to Hodor.
Hello! I wandered and ended up here out of curiosity! I have to admit I come from the Elden Ring fandom, and I have no knowledge and familiarity of GRRM's works. Listening here, I think I gained some insight why Miyazaki and Martin's fantasy world merged so well! I don't know much people who are willing to try and pick out, and compare and contrast which fantasy elements in Elden Ring are Miyazaki's and Martin's. Though extremely highly unlikely I hope you try and play Elden Ring and check out the story.
The concept of royalty is interesting in ASOIAF. I've always tried separate out the different titles of the one who sits the iron throne (ie King the Andals, Roynar and First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm) to help understand this concept of kings blood. It seems that the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms means the one Lord Paramount above all other vassal lords who owe him/her fealty; Protector of the Realm being akin to Commander in Chief or the head of all the different wardens, while the title King seems to be the one related to genetics and lineage. Thus, one cannot truly be "King" unless they have the true ancestral lineage to back that claim up, and if someone were to just name themselves "King", they would really be a King only in name -- a "false king".
This is just so awesome, thank you guys! I was wondering if you also see the connection between the dream from first Lovecraftian novel you mention and Bran's coma dream, when he gets tricked by the 3 Eyed Crow, but being a terrified child, does not realise it. (I was gonna edit that part out, but I had a brain fart) And I am wondering if some of the Lovecraft experts would be so kind to write or point me to a beginner's guide to his book, as in where to start, in which order shoud I read his books etc.
Bam! HorrorBabble is awesome! If you don't want to spend a lot of time, HorrorBabble has a "7 Lovecraft Shorts in 15 minutes or Less" video. But if you want to jump into the meat of Lovecraft stories, The Dunwich Horror, At the Mountains of Madness, The Case of Charles Dexter Ward, The Whisperer in the Darkness, The Call of Cthulhu, The Shadow Out of Time, and my personal favorite, The Shadow over Innsmouth are good places to start. Lovecraft writes short stories that are mostly only related through the pantheon of eldritch creatures, and maybe the book Necronomicon (sound familiar?), so it doesn't really matter where you start.
Thank you so much, that was really helpful, time to shop for "used" books (what is it with english speaking counties that books immediately lose most of their value after being read?) and check out that channel!
Yeah... Old paperbacks shouldn't be hard to find, and since they are short stories, won't take long to get a fair understanding. I've read the stories, but I work on the internet, so I tend to have enough time to have a narration running while I'm on. The narrators at HorrorBabble are fantastic, and oddly enough, helped me paint a better mental picture than I got from even reading the books.
Excellent! Have you seen the indie film "The Endless"? The "monster" in this story is never seen, but enacts it's will on human lives.. It is definitely Lovecraft reminiscent. Really good!
Your lovecraft videos are the reason I subsrcibed and your ideas about asshai and yi ti seem to be so accurate and seems like the real game is between theese other entities, but when G.R.R.M talks about east of Qarth he says a lot of it was just a tip of the hat to lovecraft. How much of your plot ideas do you think are actually going to be relevant in or revealed in ASOIAF. Thanks for your time.
In regards to the sacrifices I believe the common thread is the blood of not just any one but the blood of a loved one. Referencing the sword of light and how it had to be created with the soul of his wife to imbue it with magic
Many thanks for absolutely awesome podcast guys! Please keep providing us with top notch content and I'd be super hyped if there'll be another round on lovecraftian thing with a bit more focus on citations from both sources - each time you do that I feel like "god damn I see it now! how could I miss that" and this feeling is the best :)
That was AWESOME!!! Davos not being Davos! You get me every time! Do this with the Order of the Green Hand more often please. My two favorites together! Thanks!
I realize this is an old video but one way I saw it was that there is only one god and his name is death and what do we say to death not today . Despite what’s looks like the white walkers are the ones who are bringing dead men back to life in a manner of speaking with the exception on Jon, beric, and lady stone heart.
Hardly hidden imo. The threat of looming cosmic horrors the the utterly un understandable is displayed prominently several times. Rhollor can be seen as an elder god stand in, and the white walkers, land of asshai, etc, it’s just outright cosmic horror at points.
This is awesome but is it me or is the editing a bit choppy? The guest will start speaking and mid-word it cuts off in some places. Fascinating topics I gotta check out Green Hand podcast.
On the subject of the blood of gods and kings, perhaps the inbreeding of the Targaryan's is what gives their blood such power to the point where it literally gives them the magic ability to tame dragons.
regarding kings blood, I always thought what they sacrificed with blood magic was the individuals future potential. So the more important your potential the better the sacrifice - someone who could be king sacrifices more than someone who'd be a farmer!
Wolfie Ooh, I like that thought! A king has the potential to change the lives of thousands or millions of people, and so it makes sense sacrificing up that influence to a god would allow that god to transmit a great amount of interventional power in reality.
Discovering that Quinn is as big a Lovecraft fan as a Dune fan. Leads me to the curiousity, has Quinn explored the text The King in Yellow at all. Kind of a forerunner to Lovecraft dealing in eldritch horror.
once again amazing! I think I heard you say you have read The Wheel of Time. If so could you do a video on some of the comparisons? Pick any topic, heck make a series! Thank you!
Roselia Rothwell West World, a science fiction genre movie from the 1970's recreated as an HBO series now in season 2. Created by Michael Crichton of Jurassic park fame. Check it out if you haven't, it's a mind bend for sure.
The best thing that HP Lovecraft ever did was not copyright his works, I love how so many different universes are connected by it either directly or being heavily influenced by it, it's like it's own multiverse XD
You're mistaken, Lovecraft works were copyrighted by his estate, however copyright normally does not exceed 50 years after the authors death. Lovecraft works have been in the public domain internationally since 2008. However that said, Lovecraft was very generous with his universe and other authors wrote in that universe, including Ambrose Bierce, to everyone's benefit.
@@shawnwales696 Ambrose Bierce died in 1913, he didn't write in HPL's universe
@@shawnwales696 Lovecraft made his universe open for anyone who wanted to add new stories to it
@@unsenorllamadoukko5795 well... Sort of. He did that by dying so long ago that his family can no longer sue you
This is a MILLION times more interesting than the crap they're churning out for Season 8.
this video is better than season 8
Well, sure, this is how mythologies are created. People propose stories, people chose the ones they like, and those stories survive during millennia.
Humanity screwed up the day we acepted concepts like canon, copyright (at least the abuse of it) or franchise. Now decadence, decadence and stupidity.
Yea hey he's got me right back into this amazing world, and now I'm reading H.P Lovecraft for the first time too XD
@@beyond12021 Oooh! Enjoy your Lovecraft! Your world is about to change for the weirder and the better! ;D
@ThisIsMyRealName Seriously. Though I think an argument could be made for season 4 being the last "real" season of GoT. At the very least, as a die hard GRRM reader, I still found it satisfying, in spite of matters like the glaring lack of Lady Stoneheart. We still got our brilliantly executed Purple Wedding, Pedro Pascal was delightful as Prince Oberon, everything involving Tyrion's trial was fantastic, especially the interplay between Peter Dinklage and Charles Dance, and the trial by combat was something brutal that I didn't know that I'd needed in my life. Tywin's death was overall highly satisfying, though Jaime's lack of mention of Tysha was definitely a sign of things to come, and not a good one. Still, I stand by my judgment that GoT died with Tywin Lannister, and that the really good actors who were killed off in the first few seasons were the lucky ones.
Was reading A Feast For Crows, and some character in one of Jaime's chapters was named Dagon. Which is one of H.P Lovecraft's mythos
Dagon greyjoy. Its a very in the nose reference
Yeah
Yup
Dagon was actually an ancient Sumerian/Babylonian deity that Lovecraft borrowed. He did have something to do with water/seas though. Im sure in these books its more a reference to Lovecraft, though.
Not trying to correct anyone, just a bit of trivia you might find interesting
@@KuLaydMahn Sumerologist here. Dagon (originally Dagan) actually was a Syrian plough and grain deity. The whole "fish" thing is based on a misunderstanding based on Hebrew, and predictably first shows up in the Old Testament - later taken up by Milton in his 'Paradise Lost', and then by HPL.
You know a world is incredibly well built when there are this many references hidden and so many subplots and hints to things beyond the comprehension of the characters
That’s what makes the wait for the next book so damn painful, because you know the next book is going to delve so much more into them 😞
The “Oily Black Stone” or “Bloodstone” is almost definately a Robert E Howard reference. There are several other Howard, and Clark Ashton Smith bits dropped in.
what bits?
Yes, but they also worked within the same mythos as Lovecraft - they all corresponded and shared ideas. And most importantly, Lovecraft never copyrighted any or his works, names, creatures, or ideas. He *wanted* other writers and artists to build on what he'd begun, which is a part of his genius in my opinion.
@@neuralmute I agree. By doing this, he was assured to make live his own creation for decades and to leave his mark on the fantasy genre. The black stone is definitely an Howard reference, as well as the Five Forts which are ancient mega structures like in some places of Hyperborea.
@@Neo587 Exactly! Lovecraft set himself up to be possibly the most influencial writer in the horror and fantasy genres by allowing his mythical world to be a playground for other writers and artists who came after, and who did the same with the ideas they'd borrowed from him. There's a very good reason that I've got a framed rubbing of Lovecraft's gravestone hanging over my bed!
@@neuralmute H.P Lovecraft was a genius. That's not a coincidence if he is quoted and mentioned as an inspiration for many authors, including George R.R. Martin, who put Lovecraftian elements everywhere in his world (and I'm convinced that Euron, the Drowned God and the Great Other are coming directly from Martin's passion for H.P.L). For me, he is as important and iconic as J.R.R. Tolkien to the fantasy genre. He was a pionneer for his time and the next generations, his work and universe being a major inspiration for many now. And where Tolkien is simplistic and classic in his approach of sentient beings, like an idealisation of existence, I strongly prefer Lovecraft's and Martin's deep and dark explorations and descriptions of the conscious beings' behaviors. In truth, they appear to be more important for me than Tolkien's work. Clark Ashton Smith and Robert. E. Howard were excellent writers as well and close friends of Howard Philips Lovecraft. They formed a brilliant and extraordinary circle of pionneer writers. I like Martin's world and works even more, knowing and seeing that he is heavily inspired by their creations and discovering their incomparable marks in A Song of Ice and Fire. It's a majestic and immense tapestry of mysteries, and in my opinion it's the major reason why we are all here talking about ASoIaF. This mix of influences and talents created a true fascination for this whole tangible world ;)
Hastur is also known as the king in yellow, he rules in a city with a yellow sky filled with black stars, this city is Carcosa. This is also a city in Essos and in the books a yellow emperor rules there. Just something I thought you should know.
There is an Indian movie called tumbad. A horror movie with a demon named hastur.
You guys are in trouble. You know he is not to be named!
You know what, I think you might’ve solved the biggest mystery of the new season of the show “From” with the mysterious “Man in Yellow” I would not be surprised if Lovecraft’s work plays a role in the show
Also In his earlier book, "Fevre Dream" Martin's main character is Abner Marsh very similar to a character in "The Shadow over Innsmouth" named Obed Marsh. Both boat captains too.
I recently read Fevre Dream and loved it. I also noticed a few references (if you can call them that since FD came out about a decade before the GoT). Like someone said "the night is dark, and the day is long" and someone even said "of fire and blood".
Sorry for the long comment
i thought about something different: as joshua york tells abner about the origin and history of the "vampires", he mentions a black city that they seek and want to revive or something like that. now, look at all these lovecraftian influences, why shouldn't this city be like cosmically connected to different dimensions, like the world of ice and fire. Well, think of stygai or asshai or so, and then just think about how freaking cool it would be if we meet some "vampires" in a vision of euron/aeron/melisandre/dany/bran or even in fact!!!
😂 noice.
@Edith Verderber shut the fuck up
yea and my grandpa's name is Marsh too maybe he is from Innsmouth. Go get a life idiot..
The concept of people living shorter and shorter as time passes from the peek of a golden age civilization is not just biblical, its a long and very well established in folklore/myth/fantasy settings. It can represent a few different things, but it is often ether a dilution of a the purity of an ideal state of living (sin free), or a lose of purity of blood (from some sort of platonic ideal state), often both.
Incidentally, one of the ideas of the philosopher stone, and the immortality it gave, come from its ability to reverse this state.
Yes and as what we know of civilization those folklore likely descended from the same story.
And the philosophers stone was always an allegory for overcoming limitations through science.
Here’s a creepy thought: what if all those stories about people living far longer are right?
Ancient cultures around the world repeat this idea, it is specifically present in all the Dharmic religions. The idea is that we go from big to small, moral and wise to immoral and stupid, and then back again, in an endless, slow cycle.
@@thezerowulf507 That is a very modern view of the philosopher's stone, and has nothing really to do with the origins of the notion, which were in the thaumatological and esoteric teachings of the alchemists of medieval Europe.
I love re listening to this video even 5 years later. Was such a cool conversation with Quinn and Dave.
My two favorite ASOIAF youtubers (minus lady greenhand) talking lovecraft. How have I not watched this yet.
No gods can ever be trusted because they can never be held to human ideals and virtues.
Yay for an Ideas and Order collab, and another yay for lovecraftian podcast!! We don't deserve this awesomeness!! (But I'm so happy it's been bestowed upon us!!)
Pamela Mertz ideas of order
damn I just can't get enough of ASOIAF lore. It's ridiculously good!
Thanks Ideas of ice and fire and The Order off the green hand
On the subject of kings blood: I belive Magic in ASOIAF is fate and destiny trying to right itself. When the stallion that mounts the world was sacrificed, three dragons was awoken. In terms of the death toll, that might balance out. He was destined to conquer Westeros and that would obviously cause allot of death, destruction and kaos. Now the dragons will cause it in it's place. I belive this is the power of kings blood. Their lives were suppose to effect the world, so when they die, the world needs to right itself through magic.
Great point!
Christian Flor Very cool theory.
That's an interesting line of thought. I like it!
Wow I like that theory
Christian Flor goooooood analysis, never thought of this
To my head cannon "Kings Blood" is your ability to rule and control and how much is measured by how many generations that control lasts or by how Kingly the blood of the person who overthrows you is. Aegon I had a lot as measured by the length of his familys reign. Aenys had less kings blood than Aegon I and his son less again all the way to Aerys II who had less than Robert Baratheon. Joffrey had some of the Kings Blood as he was able to rule and make decisions but Tommen had next to none as his mother ruled in his stead. The self proclaimed kings all must have more than the inherited kings, Joffrey and Tommen, because they were able to pull nations out of their control. I would expect that of all the Lannisters, Tyrion inherited the most from his father with Cercei as a close second. The reason is Tyrions uncanny ability to find himself to a position of control behind royalty again and again no matter how much he loses. I would be he even has more than his queen as any control he peels out of the world stays for much longer, whereas Daenerys' control collapses as soon as she leaves. Its not the Robert has kings blood because he is king. He is king because he had kings blood. They are drawn to power, and naturally find themself at the top of any heirarchy they join.
I suspect that R'hllor is just the first dragon. Ancient and giant beyond compare. Powerful enough that they are indistinguishable from a god. The Other is obviously and blatantly the night king is the other. I find it poetic as well that a great beast demanding our blood fights for our survival... and a man that walks as us and grants us immortality is our death.
Interesting thought. Rhllor being a dragonic entity is very cool.
What about the Doom? In Jaime's dream he thinks the doom lives beneath Casterly Rock. And in the House of Undying something is after Daenerys.
Shivers down my spine of the chemical change in my mind ,listening to all these therios of acient myths, lovecraft and cosmic horror I'm dreaming good tonight Quinn and the order of the greenhand epic fuckin epic!
30:00 Not "king's blood," as in direct descent from any person who wore a crown at some point, but "Kings' Blood" as in mythic hero divine blood that innately destines the bloodline for sacral kingship.
I can see both having some magical properties but the former definitely being much more potent, without even going into the D&D sorcerer class.
What if the Church of Starry Wisdom is the Faith of the Seven? After all, for centuries or even millennia the center of the Faith was in Oldtown and the Starry Sept, which is built out of black marble.
Krumbull and on the coast lines
The Faith also has a presence in Braavos, so it would be odd for Arya (who was educated by a septa) to recognize the Church's singing as something familiar
The Drowned God has always seemed fairly Lovecraftian to me.
With the far East I'm not sure if that's Lore that Martin doesn't want to release yet or if it's stuff he hasn't gone that far into himself yet because he's too busy working on the ASOIAF part of the world.
Listening to this was awesome, hearing a couple of pret-tolkenian fantasy scholars shooting the shit and coming out with material for another PhD thesis.
The creatures from the sea of Lovecraft are also mentioned in George R.R. Martins books.
Hey Quinn, I just wanted to let you know that you should send in a recording of you doing an A Song of Ice & Fire reading as an application to become George's new Reader for official audiobooks. Your Reading Voice is amazing and I feel like it would be a missed opportunity if you didn't. From a Fan -Dillon
Quinn does like one voice and You think he can fill Roy Dotrice's shoes?
BigDirtyUncle I bought the dunk n egg novellas read by Harry loyd and he can’t even fill Roy Dotrice shoes idk why Quinn’s fans are so stuck on him
@@YourGraceMyLady I have no idea why either. Quinn is a disgustingly bad narrator in comparison to someone like Roy Dotrice so its baffling to me that some of his fans think he can do it. lol maybe they think he'll acknowledge their existence if they blow enough smoke up his ass.
@@kuroshthegreat8073 You did not have to be rude
@@carmendiez5214 They're just angry because they don't have a nice narrating voice. Quinn has a great voice. I like listening to his channel while I work and before I sleep. I've just started reading Dune because of him.
Do a episode about the Michael Moorcock stuff in the a song of ice and fire
Red Stone ***BLOODS AND SOULS FOR MY GOD ARIOCH***
The idea of the Human Emperor and his 'immortal empire' is clearly inspired by Chinese mythology. In chinese mythology, through martial arts, internal alchemy, etc, man can transcend flesh and attain _longevity_ together with superhuman abilities and even special powers very analogous to _magic_ . I'm quite sure GRRM has adapted these mythologies to some extent.
After the human emperor left, at least 2 different deities descended, one of ice and one of fire, who either caused the decline of the human empire or simply availed themselves of the opportunity, _consuming_ it for themselves. I say consuming because both of them are quite clearly using humans as tools. The Valyrians and their dragons are just as much pieces as them as the Others are.
This also leads me to believe the Human Emperor himself is not a native of the planet. The natives (if any) would likely be the children of the forest, werewoods, giants, unicorns, lions, etc. Though that begs the question: those are all creatures of Westeros, what about the native creatures of Essos, etc? If this idea is correct, then surely there ought to be creatures 10k years ago who first confronted these human ancestors.
Another common theme in fantasy is the thinning of blood, as mentioned. The normalization of incest among the Targaerians would likely be a practice incentivized to preserve the strength of their Amethyst ancestry's blood.
It appears the 3-eyed raven took Bran’s body, and Bran was stuck in the vision/time. Is that the reason Bran keeps getting reborn? I recall the 3-eyed Raven saying he was sitting there for a thousand years waiting for Bran. That means he knew Bran was existing somewhere even before his birth?
drubujay that also sounds like it knowing that the humans are coming and waiting for them...
drubujay I don't know when he said that but he could have ment someone as powerful as Bran.
as a greenseer Brynden can see into the future despite not understanding when something will happen. It is likely he got a greendream that Bran would arrive in his tree, he just never knew when
@@SantomPh On the other hand, there does seem to be something going on with all the Brandon Starks. The only other name that gets repeated in just about every generation like that is Aegon. Also, there are no Brandon Mormonts or Brandon Reeds (but we have Lyanna Mormont, clearly named for Lyanna Stark, for example). The only family that uses the name is the Starks. Maybe there has only ever been one Brandon Stark.
Thank you for an excellent collaboration and thoughtful discussion! Love it when you two talk Lovecraft and the mystical side of GRRM’s world-building.
Lovecraft AND The Order of the Green Hand?!?! This is what I am talking about!
This was really fun to listen to. There's so much I didnt know and learned through this podcast.
I got the impression that anyone who referred to themselves as having Blood of the First Men was essentially declaring lineage from Garth.
I thought Dany's visions & dreams made it pretty clear the Bloodstone Emperor was her blood ancester?
Great video you should start doing some Lovecraft reading I'm pretty sure a lot of people would enjoy it.
Around 20:00, the reason the eastern region is so unknown is because of the Bone Mountains. They limit travel to only three pathways that are guarded.
Yeah but they can arrange a proper fleet with defence, and pass the Jade Gate to reach Yi-Ti
FFS, even Jorah Mormont suggests going to Yi-Ti instead of trying to reach Westeros at A Game of Thrones at some point.
This is great. I think that the King's Blood riddle is solved by the House of Black and White, or moreover, is solved by how they charge for their assassin's service differently depending on the target's importance.
The power in king's blood has to do with importance, and is true by metaphor. It isn't that you can claim a rock as your land and you a king upon it, it is that a king is more important than a pauper in relative terms, and thus is more valuable a sacrifice to make. Shedding the blood of a king is pleasing to the gods because it hurts more to the people making the sacrifice than if they just took the blood of some random person.
Add in that prophecy is real to a degree, and someone who is important for prophecy is also a powerful sacrifice, as is sacrificing your own child or a dragon egg.
I've wondered if there's some hint of this in the Azor Azhai myth. Before sacrificing Nissa Nissa he tells her she is the thing he loves most in the world. So is her blood important because she is important to him? Or is this just some twisted myth, perhaps a metaphor meant to teach followers of Rhllor that they should be willing to sacrifice anything the god asks for?
Maybe there is more to the fact that kin slaying and king slaying are so frowned on because it is part of the ritual of blood magic
Had to stop the video halfway because you guys reminded me of one of my own mysteries. I sware I remember reading somewhere that one of Aegons sisters had found a giant ancient city in Southeros but every attempt at colonizing it failed so they decided not to go back. Funny thing is I cant seem to figure out where I read this lol. Any ideas
Brandon of the Bloody Blade Aegon's sisters did not go to Sothyros, although Valyria did try to colonize it 3 times with Ghis also having a go .
A lone Valyrian flew her dragon south for something like 3 years and came back, reporting that the continent never seems to end.
you may be thinking of Queen Nymeria, who took the Rhoynar to Sothyros, inhabiting the cities of Zemmattar and Yeen only to find the entire Yeen city abandoned later. Nymeria then took ship again
I just discovered Quinn through LML who I rediscovered after forgetting about through Alt Shift X as I was rereading this series.. you guys reinvigorated my absolute love for this series! Incredible content and analysis.
The biggest nod to Lovecraft I can find is that all these characters are fighting and dying for power, titles, family, and religion. But Beric and Jon both say that there's nothing but maddening blank, dark space after death. A black empty void that consumes all...
The idea of petty human squabbles meaning absolutely nothing in the face of a force of nature, incomprehensible to the puny humans in its shadow is very Lovecraftian!
THAT was amazing! The topics, which are amazing in and of themselves, aside, both your voices just give me fuzzy feelings and I could listen to this 24/7!
This is just what I need. Gonna let this buffer for min, while I still have data, and then hopefully this will get me through the rest of the Rocky's to Denver before I have to try and load another video lol
I always fine Kadath to be the most interesting aspect of the mythos...just soo strange and mysterious..
Positively dreamy.
About Shu-Niggurath: He/She/It is an outer god of fertility and change which can in some rituals eat it’s summoners and the give birth to them again as a satyr-like immortal being (kind of like that one god with three faces in ASOIAF) and it is said that in times of hardship the people of Qohor will sacrifice their own children to the black goat (the black goat of a thousand young if they are the same entity), so it could be that instead of knowledge they are seeking to make their land fertile so they can feed their people or even asking the outer goddess to strengthen their warriors to deal with enemy threats.
I just wanted to take the time to say thanks for making videos. Not just this one but all of them. I especially enjoy your videos on subjects such as these, or DUNE. You convinced me to read the books (Thank Christ) as I only knew the David Lynch version from the 80's.
But anyway, thanks a ton!
Bran 9000: The throne goes to Rheagars only surviving so, Aegon, Jon Snow.
Jon: I don't want it.
Bran 9000: The the throne goes to Aerys 2nd born son, Jaime Lannister.
Jaime: I would be a terrible king. I don't want it.
Bran 9000: Next would be Cersei his eldest daughter.
Cercei: Begins to laugh in triumph.
Daenerys: Dracarys, and takes the throne.
Lame dude
This is the fast track to a nice career. Awesome reviews! Saves a lot of time.
Try playing a drinking game while listening to this video. Every time you hear: “lovecraftian” “lovecraft” and “for lack of a better word” take a drink. You will get shit housed folks.
I agree about Jaime and Cersei there are so many similarities between Cersei and Aerys:
- they are both paranoid
-wildfire makes them ecstatic
-they are both extremely erratic
The World of ice and fire about Aerys: „Though not the most diligent of princes, nor the most intelligent, he had an undeniable charm that won him
many friends“/Jaime about Cersei in Feast for Crows: „What ever else one might say about his sister, she did know how to make men love her when she cared enough to try.“
The World of Ice and Fire:„In 265 AC, offended by the stink of King's Landing he spoke of building a 'white city' entirely of marble on the south bank
of the Blackwater Rush“/Cersei to Jaime in a Feast for Crows:„'After the war I mean to build a new palace beyond the river' She had dreamed of it
the night before last, a magnificent white castle surrounded by woods and gardens, long leagues from the stinks and noise of King's Landing“
World of Ice and Fire about Aerys: “None of these grandiose plans ever came to fruition; most indeed, were forgotten within a moon's turn, for Aerys
seemed to grow bored...“/Jaime thinks about Cersei: „She does not lack for wits but she has no judgement and no patience.“
Jaime remembering Aerys-Storm of Swords: „All the traitors. Rossart says the are inside the walls. He's gone to make them a warm welcome“
Cersei talks about her plan to burn the tower :„'the fire may smoke a few rats from the rubble...The imp is small and cunning. He may still be in the
walls. If he is, the fire will smoke him out...“
The world of Ice and Fire about Aerys:“Henceforth, His Grace told Pycelle, the realm would know for a certainty that the man who wore the crown
also ruled the Seven Kingdoms”Cersei thinks at Margaerys trial: „...they would know they had but one true queen.“
It goes on and on...
The Valyrians are hardly influenced by Michael Moorcock's Melnibonéans. Ancient advance and decadent culture, they are cruel with his humans slaves (they are not), the use magic, blood rituals and they have dragons. Elric the Emperor of Melniboné is albino, with red eyes and white hair, so I'm pretty sure George RR Martin got inspired by Moorcock's books.
True
Moorcock
In my theory George R.R. Martin also was influenced by the PC Game "Rings of Medusa" (Gold) - see the Undead (Zombies and Skeletons) and the demons. And by the book of the German Professor Felix Dahn "A fight for Rome" ("A fight about Rome"). The Archetypes of the Charakters are similiar, see the psychologist C.G.Jung about it.
He very probably also was influenced by the German anthroposoph Rudolf Steiner (founder of "Anthroposophy").
@@SingingSealRiana George R.R. Martin may also be inspired by Rudolf Steiner and Dieter Rüggeberg (see his website) and the 90ies Video Game "Rings of Medusa" ROM Gold (see the Undea - Skeletons and Zombis - and see the demons) and by the 19th century novel "A fight for rome" by German Professor Felix Dahn.
Has anyone tried to connect the color of the Gemstone Emperors, The Eye color of the magical creatures and/or magically inclined races. AKA, Jade: Green Eyes for Green Sight, Topaz: Yellow Eyes, also maybe GreenSight, Amethyst/Tomaline : Purple Eyes, Fire/Valeryrian, Pearl/Opal, White? Moon Singers? BloodStone; Red Eyes, Skin Changing/Warging.
Dont know just a thought.
Christopher Mitchell it's a good thought! Now I'm curious.
Christopher Mitchell The order has made videos connecting eye color of the gemstone emperors to people in our current timeline (it's been a while since I've seen the video so I can't actually recall the specifics right off the top of my heard, but they also made this connection, you'd probably thoroughly enjoy their vid on the subject) and actually I'm pretty sure their theory about the connections is almost exactly what you're talking about, I'll try to find which video it is and post a link for you, and if you're not already a subscriber, but you made this connection, you'd probably enjoy their content!
This is one of my favourite videos to come back too
This is FANTASTIC!!!!!
when i see this channel realeses a 1 hour + vid
im smiling
thanks alot bro
That Forsaken chapter really messed with my head in an existential way. Lucky for me, my favorite feeling is existential dread. I love when GRRM gives us that. He definitely pulled inspo from HP Lovecraft and it was great!
On a different note, I still want to know what lies in Valyria that can injure Balerion the freaking Dread. That chapter in Fire and Blood was pure nightmare fuel and I loved it!!
I once attempted to write an alternative version of tv show's season 7 and on from them.
And I had this idea that they could've used Theon in a manner George uses Aereon Damphair.
Just imagine Theon being tied in Silence, even as they moored at a dock, he can't leave the sea and all.
And Theon starting to see Euron as a Cthulu shaped monstrosity, standing over him, with pulsing red eyes, as Theon sees the water in his cell rising, the sea taking him. _I am being given to the Drowned God in the end_ he thinks
Even I can write some interesting stuff including the magic of this world and they literally decided to throw everything out the window and just focuson the Iron Throne
Always getting shivers.
This was great ! I'd be very happy to see more of this.
Jamie's vision could be someone in the guise of his mother. His 'mother' tells him what his father dreams. Maybe that was Tywin's ambition for their children that Joanna knew well, or it is something someone else knew from watching Tywin's dreams. I'll have to reread that chapter for myself. A fascinating sequence all the same.
What if the Maesters have more information on the far east than they're letting on? Forbidden texts and sections of the Citadel gathering dusts on dark, musty shelves.
Jesse Byrd the Maesters are Westeros-centric so apart from books by Lomas Longstrider or Corlys Velaryon they likely dismiss most Eastern stuff as insane or for the likes of Marwynd.
Personally, the Citadel before the Andals invaded Westeros might have taken texts from the East. I think that over time, since it's become a much more critical, cynical, and perhaps manipulative they would focus on Westerosi texts as a source for guidance and advice since it's easier to verify sources closer to home.
Firstly, I'm certain "my lady" is an actually wonderful sort... Yet , her voice triggers me to want to do battle with every "mean girl" I've ever known... I'm so glad I could hear this conversation without her (unintentional ?) imposition.
Secondly & more importantly, Quinn... You are astounding! HPL unquestionably has a SERIOUSLY complicated cultural baggage. Most all his plots boil down to insanity being the result of waking to any greater truth.
Your intellect & LOVE of the western tradition of storytelling might save us all. Thank you for all you have been doing. Please continue. You might be a bit of the clue which might show us the way through our current horrors.
"We live inside the eye of a blue eyed giant macumbah"
Once a season for the first 1-4 seasons of the show, someone made a reference to this.
I know this is older content on yours but I found you last night and have been on a MAJOR binge. I wish I was using YT back in 2018. I live in NYC and only got into using this platform during the middle of the first lockdown. Literally just finished reading Cthulhu myself a moment ago after watching your Halloween special on it. You will def be seeing my name in your comments from here on out! I am hooked.
that was an amazing conversation. thank you!
In another video, someone made a suggestion in a comment for HBO to adapt Dune as a TV series similar to ASOIAF/GOT. What does anyone think about this?
Love these videos. I read all the lovecraft works as a twenager so I probably missed some nuances, but I definitely felt the influence reading tsoiaf as an adult. In glad others felt the influence.
Sweeeeet. Love hearin' from you guys.
Instant like. I love both Lovecraft and Martin. I find Lovecraft is one of the greatest influences in ASoIaF, especially on the religions and magic.
20:00 - 22:11 What an insight. What a horrifyingly plausible way to explain so many things in and out of story.
You could really start the next big cult off a premise like that applied to a broad spectrum of current events hahaha
There are many magical and interesting things in SOFI so almost anything is possible (and I think you may be correct in things especially with ties to Lovecraft), is it also possible that much of what we know of the "The East" or other areas is actually made up within the series or the product of rumor, fear, and hate of the different or twisting of foreign religion/traditions? GRRM is has a keen sense of history and people, and people have always made up stories about things they don't understand or simply fear. A good example would be the old "here be dragons" on maps. Also people just make up legends/stories in general.. and maybe we are taking these as facts (such as Minotaur, Cyclops, etc. in our history).
It would be interesting to look back in history and see what ancient people said of Asia, the middle east, and even the far north in the past and see if any of it is relevant to what is written in ASOIAF. It may not be identical but may follow similar veins.
Loving the vidoes btw!
Swarm509 as it pertains to cyclops if you found an elephant skull back in the day you might believe in cyclops as well.
Swarm509
Absolutely. That is why the World of Ice and Fire Book gives you the Citadel's take on Planetos, which is very partial and designed to correspond to the way medieval Europe understood the rest of the world.
The talk about how far the blood of kings goes is something I’ve always thought about as well,,, very interesting 🧐
I always took Johann’s sadness to be that Tywin’s dream had come true but in the spirit of be carful what you wish for, his children are deeply emotionally damaged by his hand. I think it breaks Johann’s heart to see what’s become of the man she loved and her children.
Tywin's basically, destroying his family, and his line completely, by trying to control and plan everything they ever do. He raised Cersei as a pawn in his chessboard, Cersei grew up with hopes and dreams Tywin implanted, she was supposed to marry Rhaegar and be her queen. Instead she got Robert, who was half drunk, and Cersei thought he's crude and hairy. Tywin was obsessed about image so that caught with Cersei
Worse, his son and heir, raised as a perfect knight, was so disillusioned by his hopes and dreams crushing by knowing that he was given his dream, the white cloack to mock his father, and he would find no honour there, and his titles, his future was stolen from him by a madman he swore to protect while Aerys rapes and tortures his wife and burning people alive.
Even worse, obsessed with their own image, her children became lovers and started a whole incestious joke of his royal lineage
Not to mention Tywin was not even close to being a man he pretended he was. He was literally Tyrion, a cruel, snide, witty whoremonger who couldn't resist the temptations of his body, and worse again, he traumatised his son so much, Tyrion was literally helpless about his need to connect with a woman, even a whore
A whore that he deigned sleeping with, after sending his son to his death
Charles Dance made a lot of people like that disgusting old fart, I tell you.
Your collabs are freaking awesome really love both of your channels.
What about all the Dagon references in the books? Quite a few Greyjoys with the name and GRRM mentions how one looks very much like a phish. Such brilliant depth of writing. Great job with the podcast, very enjoyable!
Such a shame that the show didn't even touch on any of this. Ever since I found out about the eldritch references I've been so fascinated just sucks that Martin hasn't given more info on the farther parts of the world.
I agree with a lot, but I have a difference of opinion on the loss of identity in the books specifically the Stark siblings compared to Lovecraft Loss of identity. In the book, they are being manipulated by people and it's not so much that they are losing their identity as they are changing, assuming new roles and therefore new modes of thinking, after all, we could not call their experiences other than traumatic. When I see Lovecraft fall into madness due to eldrich understanding is more absolute, in comparison to what you have failed to understand everything you know about everything is meaningless and the remaining answers are so hopeless you shut down completely. However, it could be similar to what happened to Hodor.
Hello! I wandered and ended up here out of curiosity!
I have to admit I come from the Elden Ring fandom, and I have no knowledge and familiarity of GRRM's works. Listening here, I think I gained some insight why Miyazaki and Martin's fantasy world merged so well!
I don't know much people who are willing to try and pick out, and compare and contrast which fantasy elements in Elden Ring are Miyazaki's and Martin's. Though extremely highly unlikely I hope you try and play Elden Ring and check out the story.
Best colab possible. Thanks for the vid
The concept of royalty is interesting in ASOIAF. I've always tried separate out the different titles of the one who sits the iron throne (ie King the Andals, Roynar and First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm) to help understand this concept of kings blood. It seems that the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms means the one Lord Paramount above all other vassal lords who owe him/her fealty; Protector of the Realm being akin to Commander in Chief or the head of all the different wardens, while the title King seems to be the one related to genetics and lineage. Thus, one cannot truly be "King" unless they have the true ancestral lineage to back that claim up, and if someone were to just name themselves "King", they would really be a King only in name -- a "false king".
I loved your Lovecraft/ASOIF talk. Great stuff. And the music made it 1000 times more horror.
This is just so awesome, thank you guys!
I was wondering if you also see the connection between the dream from first Lovecraftian novel you mention and Bran's coma dream, when he gets tricked by the 3 Eyed Crow, but being a terrified child, does not realise it. (I was gonna edit that part out, but I had a brain fart)
And I am wondering if some of the Lovecraft experts would be so kind to write or point me to a beginner's guide to his book, as in where to start, in which order shoud I read his books etc.
ocandro there's a channel on here (youtube) called horrorbabble that has narrated a ton of lovecraft, most of his best.
Bam! HorrorBabble is awesome!
If you don't want to spend a lot of time, HorrorBabble has a "7 Lovecraft Shorts in 15 minutes or Less" video. But if you want to jump into the meat of Lovecraft stories, The Dunwich Horror, At the Mountains of Madness, The Case of Charles Dexter Ward, The Whisperer in the Darkness, The Call of Cthulhu, The Shadow Out of Time, and my personal favorite, The Shadow over Innsmouth are good places to start.
Lovecraft writes short stories that are mostly only related through the pantheon of eldritch creatures, and maybe the book Necronomicon (sound familiar?), so it doesn't really matter where you start.
Thank you so much, that was really helpful, time to shop for "used" books (what is it with english speaking counties that books immediately lose most of their value after being read?) and check out that channel!
Yeah... Old paperbacks shouldn't be hard to find, and since they are short stories, won't take long to get a fair understanding.
I've read the stories, but I work on the internet, so I tend to have enough time to have a narration running while I'm on. The narrators at HorrorBabble are fantastic, and oddly enough, helped me paint a better mental picture than I got from even reading the books.
Horrorbabble is incredible.
Excellent!
Have you seen the indie film "The Endless"?
The "monster" in this story is never seen, but enacts it's will on human lives.. It is definitely Lovecraft reminiscent. Really good!
Your lovecraft videos are the reason I subsrcibed and your ideas about asshai and yi ti seem to be so accurate and seems like the real game is between theese other entities, but when G.R.R.M talks about east of Qarth he says a lot of it was just a tip of the hat to lovecraft. How much of your plot ideas do you think are actually going to be relevant in or revealed in ASOIAF. Thanks for your time.
IdeasOfIceAndFire, King Beyond the Tube!
In regards to the sacrifices I believe the common thread is the blood of not just any one but the blood of a loved one. Referencing the sword of light and how it had to be created with the soul of his wife to imbue it with magic
Many thanks for absolutely awesome podcast guys! Please keep providing us with top notch content and I'd be super hyped if there'll be another round on lovecraftian thing with a bit more focus on citations from both sources - each time you do that I feel like "god damn I see it now! how could I miss that" and this feeling is the best :)
You two were fracking AWESOME together
That was AWESOME!!! Davos not being Davos! You get me every time! Do this with the Order of the Green Hand more often please. My two favorites together! Thanks!
I realize this is an old video but one way I saw it was that there is only one god and his name is death and what do we say to death not today . Despite what’s looks like the white walkers are the ones who are bringing dead men back to life in a manner of speaking with the exception on Jon, beric, and lady stone heart.
Hey my brother, what is the background music you use? @ AsoIaf. } Id like to listen to before bedtime. Thanks.
Hardly hidden imo.
The threat of looming cosmic horrors the the utterly un understandable is displayed prominently several times.
Rhollor can be seen as an elder god stand in, and the white walkers, land of asshai, etc, it’s just outright cosmic horror at points.
What if the entity that is bringing these "dreams" are from the same being? Why couldn't quathe disguise itself however it chose to whomever it chose?
Always a great thing to see! Though I'm kinda sad that no one seems to bring up Ithaqua in relation to the Whitewalkers.
Two of the most intelligent got youtubers..heck yes. You have to repeat that
This is awesome but is it me or is the editing a bit choppy? The guest will start speaking and mid-word it cuts off in some places.
Fascinating topics I gotta check out Green Hand podcast.
I don't think that is editing, but the mic just cutting off the voice, because he was a bit too quiet at that moment.
Too much awesome happening in one video!!
On the subject of the blood of gods and kings, perhaps the inbreeding of the Targaryan's is what gives their blood such power to the point where it literally gives them the magic ability to tame dragons.
This video is awesome such a cool trippy subject
regarding kings blood, I always thought what they sacrificed with blood magic was the individuals future potential. So the more important your potential the better the sacrifice - someone who could be king sacrifices more than someone who'd be a farmer!
Wolfie Ooh, I like that thought! A king has the potential to change the lives of thousands or millions of people, and so it makes sense sacrificing up that influence to a god would allow that god to transmit a great amount of interventional power in reality.
YES I wanted this for so long
Great video!!
Great video guys
Discovering that Quinn is as big a Lovecraft fan as a Dune fan. Leads me to the curiousity, has Quinn explored the text The King in Yellow at all. Kind of a forerunner to Lovecraft dealing in eldritch horror.
Hey IOIAF, can you do a podcast on possible Lovecraftian references in Dune if there is any?
I'd love to see you do a series on the EVE Online Universe based on the books, EVE: Empyrean Age, EVE: Burning Life, and EVE: Templar One.
once again amazing! I think I heard you say you have read The Wheel of Time. If so could you do a video on some of the comparisons? Pick any topic, heck make a series! Thank you!
First to like and first to comment, love the green hand on this collab video. Lovecraft certainly influenced GOT, Dune, and WW amongst many others.
Aaron Arguelles WW2
WW?
Roselia Rothwell West World, a science fiction genre movie from the 1970's recreated as an HBO series now in season 2. Created by Michael Crichton of Jurassic park fame. Check it out if you haven't, it's a mind bend for sure.
At first I thought WW stood for Wonder Woman. It’s a good thing it was clarified what you meant.
First to like and comment? Omg. So cool.
A podcast of Ice & Fire