IdeasOfIceAndFire Elephants are well known to recognize death and interact in a ritualistic manner with their dead. And this very probably spans many more different species of different orders outside the primate order.
IdeasOfIceAndFire what would you say is a good book of lovecraft, to start with? I always hear comparison to his books. I'm interested in delving into a good source material.
One subtle thing I love about George's writing is how he describes westeros in the eyes of other peoples. "Men of iron in stone houses". Gives you the sense that to the people of Essos westeros seems like a land where men are ruled by lions and ancient evils lurk behind every corner, while from our pov we see the truth is far more mundane. I like to imagine that the way we see the rest of the world in GoT is similar. We hear about "bloodstone emperors" and "lands of shadow" when likely the truth is far more realistic and probably includes its own characters trapped up in their little game of thrones
I agree. Whilst I loved this video, I think these guys may be taking some of the garbled rumour of far off lands a bit too literally. I think a lot of this is “here be dragons” stuff, rather than accurate reportage.
Will Mosse I agree that many of the stories and rumors are likely exaggerated or speak of times long past (the truth of which warped over the aeons), BUT we must also remember that this world *is* populated by fantastical creatures like actual dragons, giants, impish/elfish little forest people, ice men that control dead bodies, sorcerers walking in the skins of beasts, resurrecting noble warriors with some kind of holy fire magic, seers that can peer into past events & influence them to some degree, in order to alter the present moment! Plus All sorts of other crazy things besides! In this context..What is so unbelievable about some strange, rare, unique or magical creatures that still prowl the world in far off lands?
+Ideasoficeandfire Elephants not only bury their own dead, they'll bury anything dead they come across, to the point where an elephant that accidentally trampled a human woman and child in a panic stopped to bury them with branches and leaves before going about the rest of it's day. Funeral rites are actually reasonably common amongst certain intelligent mammals and avians.
and some people say this demonstrates early religious tendencies in other mammals, giving a somewhat explanation to why humans created religion. to comfort ourselves in the face of death/showing respect to the dead while their 'souls' live on
The elf and mermaid/siren talk reminded me of this quote. “Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror. The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. No one ever said elves are nice. Elves are bad.” ― Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies
Another great comparison regarding elves/faerie comes from The Wise Man's Fear from the Kingkiller Chronicles series by Patrick Rothfuss. It describes the difference between men and fae as that between water and alcohol. To paraphrase - both are clear liquids, and in a clear glass bottle may be mistaken for one another. But that is where similarities end; they are as different as can be in every other way. One nourishes and fosters life, the other poisons and corrodes. One quenches fire, the other is flammable.
There's an old Irish folktale, of a Fisherman who hit his wife when he ran out of tobacco and couldn't go to shore in a storm. So these Elves come by riding sea-horses, think horses that walk on water, no inference of fishiness I think. But they rode up to his shore, and took the fisherman to town across the water to get his tobacco. On the way back, they tossed him in the water and made him defecate himself, etc etc. Scared and terrorized him, than brought him back home and told him if he hits his wife again they will come back and beat some ass! So that is one example of their complicated relationship in lore.
Those forests in Essos are made from the black trees with blue leaves - the exact opposite of the Weirwood trees. Both trees are magic, both dont rot & both become stone after being cut after a long time. That's probably where the black oily stone comes from & they use the blue leaves for shade if the eveneing. Not sure if the children there are opposite of the weirwood children or not.
@@curtpowell3795 Yes, absolutely. That's not a theory, it's a fact within the text. Dany is told during her time in Qarth that the Warlock's "shade of the evening" comes from those black trees.
I love all these little nods to Lovecraft in ASOIAF, we'l probably never get to see the Deep Ones (if they exist) but that's what's so endearing about keeping them in the background, a technique Lovecraft himself used to build dread and horror :')
In fact, it's almost certainly we'll never see them. George himself has said about the guy who finished Lovecraft's work after he died that he didn't get the point and that he should've let the mysteries of the Lovecraft world remain mysteries because they were more effective that way.
@@OneOnOne1162 In all fairness, Lovecraft also tended to tell rather than show and would take ideas from others and over-explain them. Also, it was a group of his friends who continued to make Cthulhu mythos stories, no single person took over after he died.
@@Tacityoshi1234 George referred to a single person whom he blamed for what I laid out. Also, I'm simply explaining what George's opinion is so far as I understand it, not my own. So if you disagree, I suggest you take it up with George. Either way it doesn't matter though, because George's take is: After Lovecraft died that guy overexplained things that should've remained vague, if he hated that I doubt he'd do the same thing. That was my point.
Most creatures who live most of their time underground (caves) wouldn’t have giant cat eyes, they lose their eyes or they grow smaller. However night time hunters... like cats have big eyes because they rely on the moonlight which isn’t present underground. Just my non expert opinion. Still a great vid boys.
You do know some caves actually create it's own unnatural light in some caves that's been proven how the light created is sometimes never figured out and some have been so no that statement is inaccurate about cave beings just saying.
If you actually own a cat, and I do, you'll realise they get very active around early dawn and late dusk, as they would hunt in the twilight if we didn't feed them pouches of fish in gravy. Believe me a healthy cat still has those instincts. She was rescued from our garden and was a little sad and non engaging when we first got her with no hunting wish, mainly because her previous idiot owner we contacted never treated her hernia and fleas.
I totally agree with the idea of how the babies are used to make White Walkers. But I will elaborate further. Obviously a theory but I think it holds water in relation to Georges writing style of fantastic realism. I think its possible to create a white walker from any humans life force, however the reason for using babies could be for 2 distinct purposes. One is that maybe the children have a stronger life force in that larval stage of growth. But the aspect I want to theorise on is this. Babies are used because they have not yet established a distinct identity. I imagine that memories and identity could be transfered to the new white walker through this transference of life force. So you would only want the sources to be young mentally unformed children so that this new walker could be easily established in whatever culture they have. It probably wouldnt take long for the child mind to forget ever being human. This could also explain why Cold Hands seems to have a mind of his own. Maybe this is a person who was subject to this ritual and retained a large portion of their human identity
This is actually a really good theory! Because it's said somewhere that wights do have some memory of their past life. So that maybe explains why adults and older children only turn into wights because it's more difficult to actually turn them into white walkers due to their memories and identity they have built up, they might fight against it more than simply just being turned into a wight. Cool idea!
@@kirstycoo97 The possibility that it's difficult to make adult White Walkers might mean that Coldhands is an important person. Not Benjen or the Night's King or whatever, but someone else we haven't met yet.
Whales don't "burry" their dead, per-say, but they do hold funerals for their dead. They spend hours or even days circling their fallen friend while singing to them. I've heard stories from my uncle (a professional sailor) of his crew and others passing by some of these funerals before. He said it was the saddest thing he ever heard :(
They also steal people's children when they lie and steal other people's husbands and can't hold up their end of the deal about having their babies so they just steal other people's babies...... then try to turn those babies into her slaves
If the influence of the old ones is related to proximity, it may explain why worship is regional, the new in the south and the old in the north...maybe something is sleeping closer to the north...
ferniek5000 makes the most sense, which is why EVERY character in ASOIAF that has been North always says everything feels different up there... even the gods feel different
regarding the Lovecraft influence around 1:15:00, many well respected fantasy / sci-fi authors have lifted from and made direct reference to the Lovecraftian Mythos. Even Lovecraft's contemporaries contributed to the Mythos and he personally was thrilled and incorporated the references into his further writings. so Martian isn't ripping anyone off, he's continuing a literary tradition of shared universes.
As usual, great discussion. Martin’s ability to meld these myths pleases my inner nerd to no end. Thanks for spilling the beans, LmL. Also, great voice work and new format, Ideas of Ice & Fire.
On my map of the known world for A Song of Ice and Fire, there's a bunch of ice floats near the northern edge. Makes me think maybe there was a land bridge that connected to the Grey Wastes. There's also the fact that, in one of the legends concerning the Long Night, demons came out of the Grey Wastes. So the theory that the two continents were connected probably has something to it.
I've got a few things to say: 1) I think the Woodwalkers are dead. I think the Weirwoods are all connected, every single one, hence the deep roots required for them to grow, and the neuron-like connection for Greenseers. And when the children brought the sea down on the Arm of Dorne, they severed the connection between Essos and Westeros, cutting off the Woodwalkers and weakening them till the Ibbenese killed them 2) The White Walkers may not be able to go into the sea, but the wights probably can. 3) Garth Greenhand is one of the old ones. The children worship the old ones. The Lengii worship the old ones. The Naathi worship Garth. The Naathi look like the Lengii. The Lengii look like the children.
When you said, that The Others are "Ice Golems"... I thought of what you said in this video a bit earlier about the Stone Man. The Shrouded Lord was made out of a stone figure. The Children animated Trees. The dragons are "Fire made flesh" and they hatch from stone eggs - what if they are not petrified but they always where stone eggs. I bet every 'Golem' needs a human connection to come to life. A sacrifice (babies for The Others), bond (sleeping with dragon eggs). Stone men are humans being 'eaten' by stone. And the children probably had to make blood sacrifices to animate trees. Oh... and don't forget Shadow Babies - they needed Kings Blood.
Since you mentioned not being aware of other creatures having a death ritual other than maybe other primeapes, I think I should mention scientists have debated over whether Ravens do, as often Ravens will return to the site of a fallen flock member and bring little tokens to leave at the body IIRC.
Salamon2 Interesting. Elephants also tend to return to the site of a fallen flock member to engage in collective mourning. I believe a number of primates also venerate the bodies of their dead. In general, I believe the consensus among biologists and scholars of religion is moving towards a view where death rituals (and religious rituals in general - cf. the chimpanzee waterfall dance) are not at all something uniquely human. Similarly, a number of species, e.g. whales and dolphins, exhibit signs of culture. That is, they have practices (songs, hunting methods) that spread in fashions by learning-the way human culture does-rather than being determined by genotype etc. The bad news in all this is that resurrecting extinct species becomes less viable. We might be able to restore animals with mammoth genotype and phenotype, but mammoth culture is forever lost. For a good recent book on animals and religion, read 'Religious Affects' by Donovan Schaefer.
Leaving tokens by the body is probably more a desperate way to encourage an 'ill' group member to keep going... Wait a minute... is THAT how funeral rituals started?
Growing up I had two generations of crows spend a lot of time with me. The first I was 7 or 8 . A crowd chick had fallen from its nest into the river where I grew up. I waded in and scoped it up. Raised that bird. Every year it came back perched on the same fence cawed and waited for me to come visit. It would hop on my shoulder and clean my hair. 5 years or so later it cawed I came out this time it and it's mate were there, I was introduced now there were two. Their chicks hatched again I was introduced while they were fledglings. That family murder came back and visited every year until I left at 20 years old. If they will do that I'm damn sure they will have habits or ritual for the dead.
Just to clarify the dream Gods otherwise known as the great ones who reside in the city of K'dath are not the same group of entities known as the great old ones who are the extraordinarily powerful outer gods.
In Dreamquest of Unknown Kadath Nyarlothotep resides in Kadath at the end though, and he's a sort of avatar of Azathoth, the most powerful outer god of them all.
IdeasOfIceAndFire Ha. They overshot when naming the more local entities so when the time came to refer somehow to the primordial, celestial beings they were stuck. Like "greater older ones..?"
I would like you to clarify why two minutes into this video you assume the children of the forest look like they do because of "evolution, adapting to their environment", citing evolution in the real world. Evolution is a THEORY, it is NOT a scientifically proven fact. One species turning into another in order to adapt to their environment has never been recorded. Very presumptuous, dishonest, and you are projecting what you WANT to be fact instead of admitting the truth. That you don't know.
Please keep in mind that the information from A world of ice and fire is not gospel. It's written as an in universe text written by a westerosi maester who is looking at second and third hand accounts, so his description of lands becomes less and less accurate the further from westeros it is. Also keep in mind that Martin regularly includes people spreading half truths and fabrications about the events in past books, so he is well versed in the way stories change in the telling.
@ to be fair Tolkeins works are the same, the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and the lord of the rings are all supposed to be works in universe. in his letters Tolkien even mentions this, the Silmarillion is supposed to be written by the elves and its events have been warped by time and nostologia.
I think this is a subtle reference to Windhaven, GRRM & Lisa Tuttle's science fiction novel. He has been known to reference his other work in the past eg. Bakkalon
Pando is a massive colony of Quaking Aspen Trees with one central, connected root system. Pando is located near Fish Lake in central southern Utah, its about 80,000 years old, and the Forest Service think that it is actually dying.
Here in the UK we have a massive network of connected mycelium of the fungus, psilocybe semilanceata. It stretches from the Black Mountains in Wales , South to Bodmin Moor in Cornwall, and North as far as the Yorkshire Moors. All one huge connected organism.
I do think that Daenerys could be a skinchanger due to her great-grandmother being Betha Blackwood. Out of all the houses in Westeros, Aegon V's wife is from the same house as Bloodraven. GRRM doesn't do anything by accident. There's also Melantha Blackwood who is the great-great grandmother to the current Stark children.
Hooded apes are a reference to orangutans. Male orangutans have a swelling around their necks and faces sometimes called a "hood". It's not that they wore clothing.
Re Patchface: there's a literary parallel. In the novel Moby Dick, a cabin boy is washed off board the ship. He is alone in a vastness of infinite blue sky and sea. By a miracle, he's found and hauled back on board, but he has gone mad. A madness that inspires Captain Ahab, himself a madman.........
In regards to the deep ones, i feel everyone forgets in A Game Of Thrones, i think the first tyrion chapter, he makes a one off comment of fishermen from Lanisport seeing mermaids, half man half fish, could be nothing or could be GRRM subtly adding that their still out there
I don't believe Garth Greenhand is an old one in that sense. He has a name. He is not one of the faceless nameless gods the children also worship. It's said he brought agriculture, which would go against the children of the forest. They had conflict because the first men would cut down trees to start farming in order to sustain themselves instead of living directly off nature. He is not really a forest god nor a god of the greenwood. There is also a difference in meaning with a description and title. The old ones could be a title or a name, but opposed to new gods it is more of a description and relative. Like an old man to a toddler could be 30 years old, but to a 50 year old woman he is not. Imagine that the Andals didn't impose a new religion in Westeros, then those "old gods" could just be "the gods".
@@covenawhite4855 Most likely considering he is said to have fathered a lot of children from maidens, make crops grow plentiful and sprout lots of seeds. Guy has a big bag of seeds and probably ploughed a lot, in more ways than 1 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
TOP 5, QUINN! This amazing video is solidly in my Top 5 favorites of ASOIAF material you have produced and shared with us. Big thank you and well done to you and LML!!! Also, your analyses which tie in H.P. Lovecraft have convinced me to check out his works for myself. Ordered and on its way!
Leng Is definitely from Lovecraft Leng itself is an actual location in Lovecraftian Mythos: Leng is a fictional cold arid plateau in the Cthulhu Mythos, whose location seems to vary entirely from story to story. The Plateau of Tsang, referenced by H. P. Lovecraft and other authors, is probably a region of Leng. Lovecraft's fictional character Abdul Alhazred describes it as a place where different realities converge, which might explain why its precise location cannot be pinned down. Sounds like a hinge in the world to me by the way.
The giants in Skyrim are a peaceful race that only attack when provoked according to the lore. The mermaids in Pirates of the Caribbean were quite dangerous and deadly as well.
Mostly yes but they do sense weakness and will expand territory when they have to, like with the orc Stronghold that was under attack since they were cursed and weaker
I started watching this while waiting for a download. Almost two hours later I realized my wife called me 10 times wondering where I was haha. Great stuff, the Lovecraft similarities fascinated me. Cheers.
Add in the Robert E Howard stuff! There's so many references from him that you can distinguish too rather than Lovecraft. Lovecraft's works are amazing, but Howard added so much to that world, and is similar but sooooooo much different. I feel like most of his influence is forgotten, and picked from further proceedings of his work, but game of thrones has so much that is related to his work!
I underestimated Howard's work because of the movies and comics that came out the past 20 years, but his work in and off book from almost 100 years ago was revolutionary
For guys who are so up on your myths and lit references, I'm sort of bummed you missed the wierd sisters/wyrd/weyward connection- being most commonly associated with the witches from Macbeth (though they're not really quite witches in some older things it's complicated) and thus associated with magic and prophesy, but then having been derived possibly from the old word for fate (wyrd) and having to do with Norns, but also that tradition and reading seem to suggest that those women may have been held in some sort of Scottish mythological context preMacbeth or considered some sort of farie folk. I mean... they're fate trees and not really understood. It's sort of right there.
Literally 4 years later........I noticed the Scottish myth and lore influences in GRRM's works just recently. Glad Im not the only one! Cheers from 2022
All the work you have done for the series is so unique and eye opening. You have reveled many secrets and an overall understanding of ASOIAF, but I think more than that, you have discovered a way (Georges way rather) that each characters arc is laid out. And now that the story makes more sense we can guess at the many paths of the future ( when expectations are subverted it will be because their are so many options). Thank you for your hard work, here's to your health! (Love Quinn)
I've always thought of the others as being Martin's version of the Dannie Sidhe (nature spirits of Spring and Summer, growth and rebirth) and the Others as his version of the Kai Sidhe (nature spirits of Fall and Winter, decay and death).
"Watchers on the Wall," similar description to a gargoyle perhaps, which are stone men/creatures and can be found at Winterfell too. Leading to the stone kiss from a woman/other
We are all aware that MArtin WILL NEVER explain the origins of things like (1)The Five Forts, (2)The Oily Black Stone found around the world, (3)The Origins of the Maze Makers, etc....that's what Martin meant when in an interview he said that his created world is an illusion, like an iceberg in reverse, where it looks like it's 90% complete, but in reality there's only 10% really of substance, when compared to Tolkien's. In other words, where Tolkien explained, in detail, the creation of the world (in the Silmarillion) beginning with "The Void" and no planet, Martin offers no such detail, not even close. I mention this because I gurantee that NOT EVEN MARTIN has come up with the origins/answers of the topics you guys discussed in this video, I bet, he's never even THOUGHT OF THEM! I mention that just to question the utility of postulating about all this esoteric stuff from the World of Ice and Fire, because not only will we never receive the answer or clarification, even if we did, it would't add anything or have any bearing on the ASoIaF series and its characters....
But as people we will do it anyway. Expecially when someone creates a world that feels this real. Also Tolkien work is way to whimsical and at some points makes no sense.
That's all assuming that authorial intent even means anything in literature-- most critics today agree that it doesn't, and I think we can extend that from "literary" fiction to fantasy. The World of Ice and Fire is a living work-- a system of myth that other authors can and will continue to expand upon without Martin. If GRRM died tomorrow (God forbid, naturally), another equally adept writer-- Gaiman or Mieville, let's say-- could easily get permission to publish a group of short fiction in this universe. And fan fiction, while not "canonical", is still valid. If ASOIAF is something that captivates and engages the creative talents of an individual, then its THEIR legacy by right of the collective unconscious. I don't think waiting around for Martin to answer these questions is logical or really necessary. Why is Asshai under-populated and made of oily black stone? Is the World of Ice and Fire round- with the Sunset Sea leading back to the Saffron Straits? What caused the Doom? GRRM doesn't have to answer these questions for me or for you. If you're engaged with these narratives to such an extent that you concern yourself with these intriguing loose ends, then YOUR creative responses are as valid as anyone else's. And if you honestly believe Martin will NEVER write about The City of Winged Men or the Grey Waste or whatever else you think is captivating but overlooked, you should write it yourself. A copyright isn't a magical weapon and doesn't bestow some sacrosanct authority upon the one who possesses it. Your landlord may own your apartment building, but its still YOUR home. Hang a damn Rothko print on the wall and put in all the shelves your heart desires. Life is short. This will all be public domain in a few decades anyway and then you'll be able to do whatever you please. And the world, like any fantasy universe, belongs to the readers already. Fantasy has a populist lineage of belonging to EVERYONE-- like folktales and epic poetry. It's bigger than one bearded novelist from Chicago-- and I'm sure he knows that. Just food for thought.
Questioning/extrapolating from an esoteric story based on the evidence that you have available is what historians do. History is incomplete and always becomes mythologized because no one was ACTUALLY THERE to witness 99.9999% of all things that ever occurred. I just see these kinds of videos as a sort of historical analysis of the world that exists within the books.
Ideas may just be insane. He believes that the world of Ice and Fire is controlled by Cthulhu. Nothing wrong with that, but come on. He may be overthinking this.
"Y'know the thing about a wight shark, he's got... lifeless eyes, blue eyes, like a doll's eyes. When he comes at ya, doesn't seem to be livin'... until he bites ya."
Great work, guys. I just wanted to point out that Martin is not *copying* Lovecraft or Tolkien when he uses ideas from their universes - he is paying tribute. This is well understood among authors and we need to realize that fantasy fiction is our modern version of legend, and it's like legends passed down orally in ancient times in which each generation took its predecessors and expanded. In reality, fantasy authors have to rely mainly on existing mythology, tropes, and universes, so their work is understandable to readers. I find it interesting when readers criticize this and claim to want 100% originality. Trust me - they don't, bc it requires hundreds of pages of boring exposition and publishers don't publish that anyway.
If this came up already I apologize, I’m five years late without a coffee! But while listening to this, when you were talking about Gogossos, it immediately reminded me of Golgotha - even more so after you mentioned how evil a place it is. Dunno if this is where GRRM was going with it, but finding all the places he bases his world off of is one of my favorite parts of the world building. This is great, thanks to you both!
Your discussion about human animal hybrids sparked an idea in my head. It's been maybe two decades since I've read Congo by Michael Crichton, but I seem to recall a plot point of the book being this idea that memories can be genetically encoded and passed down to generation (sorry if I'm wrong). What if in the ASOIAF universe, in a reversal of that concept, consciousness can carry genetic information. I'd assume that GRRM wouldn't allow for hybrids the bestiality, due to him being a stickler to science. But what if mating wargs can produce hybrids of some sort? Mating while warged is a big no-no, what if that's because of the offspring produced from the actions? What if Dany's fits of boldness during book 1 where from Drogon warging her, which then in turn caused her to give birth to the scaly child?
@18:45 this is an example of *post zygotic reproductive isolation* speciation has a lot of variants, post zygotic being the most accurate in this instance
This is actually under debate still, and most paleoanthropologists are moving toward Neanderthals being a subspecies (or a simply a geographic variation). If you ever see someone refer to Homo sapiens neaderthalensis, you’ve wandered into the subspecies camp. If Homo neanderthalensis, then they fall into he same genus but different species camp. Just wanted to add a bit to your comment in case interested parties went on to investigate and found conflicting/confusing terminology!
It could be that the Lengii are just another variety or a subspecies of TCOTF. Based on what you two guys discussed in the video, the only difference seems to be the height, which may just be the result of long-time isolation from the rest of the species (Children). Height is a trait that changes very quickly through evolution so maybe it's just that, without cross-breeding with the Old Ones.
By the very definition of "Species" Neanderthals are not a different species. The concept of them being a different species is a historic hangover from a time when speciation was less well understood. Basically different species cannot interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Modern Humans and Neanderthals interbred and human populations still have Neanderthals DNA, which has some interesting results for human biology.
Ian Armstrong This is absolutely false. There are different species that can mate and create fertile offspring, for instance, female ligers have been fertile and bred with male lions. Grizzly Bears and Polar Bears, Servals and Domestic cats, Wolves and Dogs, some species of frogs. And clearly, a Pug and a Great Dane are not the same species, it could be argued they are subspecies, but even if you want to take the Neanderthal and Homo Sapien subspecies argument, the difference between those two dogs is far more phenotypically different, even though they are classified the same species. The classification of the animal kingdom is loose at best, we can determine the number of chromosomes a certain creature has and it can still reproduce an offspring that takes the average between the two parents. We haven't even begun to understand DNA. Let's not forget there are crows from all around the world identified as different subspecies with different phenotypical, genetic and behavioral patterns that can reproduce effectively together but no one wants to breech the subject of different humans being related subspecies by speciation because DAS RAYCISS and every biologist and anthropologist that wants to study it has their funding cut.
So if the green men have the golden eyes, are tall, have "antlers" could be horns, and then all you would need is the scales, I wouldn't rule out lizard men showing up potentially, the green men are sounding more and more like them each time I hear about them. We think of cat eyes for children/old ones but reptiles have similar looking eyes...
The Children remind me of the elves of Elfquest. Small in stature, humanoid, large eyes, four fingered, wood-dwelling, magic abilities and there was a storyline in the elfquest series where the elves traveled to a new land in the west where-after 700 years,they went into 10000 year slumber, woke up and found themselves surrounded by humans in medieval times. I think the creators of the elfquest universe borrowed a lot from Martin-who in turn-borrowed a lot from history and other fantasy/sci fi stories.
Little late to this video, but thank you for the great content! I've just started researching GOT history and the creatures have been on my list for awhile. 👍
This video was mind blowing, I think you guys are on the right path! I'm so happy that you and Lucifer means Lightbringer made this. Do more togheter! P.S. Mushrooms are cool AF.
Thanks LML for linking this to your channel. It was soooo good! I thought you both worked really well together and it was a very interesting topic to discuss - one I haven't really thought about before. Also, great introduction to me to Ideas of Ice and Fire. Liked this a lot - thanks to both of you. :)
1:22:25 Is it just me or is that describing a petrified forest of weirdwood trees? Could imply they were once much more abundant on the surface of what became Westeros, and due to some event or another, geological or natural or magical or whatever, got buried by volcaninc-like material and petrified.
10:30 Just to be clear, y'all know that the Naathi are humans yeah? Missandei is one Edit: Also y'all are talking about how the Giants are intelligent because they bury their dead...The first time we see a Giant in the books it's talking smack about Jon to Torumd. I'd say they're pretty intelligent
@@dancysmith5105 okay... those were both things from the book and show. Missandei says shes Naathi in both and in the books shes just a 10 year old black girl with bright brown eyes, and in the show shes a late teens black woman with brown eyes. And in the book Jon and Tormund go to see the giants in the caravan of wildlings to settle a bet and their chief rides past on his mammoth and starts roasting Jon in the Old Tounge for not having any facial hair before also greeting Tormund as a friend. In the show the giant just walks past at some point and says basically the same thing.
@@skilledwarman i like your little edit where you changed the word show to books. i knew all this, i've read the books 4 times fool. you said show, lol
Good job BBM & LML! Great conversation fellas! Nice editing/cuts etc..! I'd love to hear this happen some more! Maybe even a small BBM/LML Channel! If I didn't get extremely sick I'd be up & running by now - but don't count me out! I'm getting my mic etc soon. Valar Morghulis...! 🦂🔥🐍 - *TRV*
That's cool... and of course Elephants are very smart. I love animal intelligence, it's a fascinating topic. That's one of the reasons I have pet parrots!
+Roland Deschain Yeah Magpies have these odd funerals involving sitting with the dead and unconfirmed reports of laying grass near the bodies. Crows have odd reactions to dead crows that are similar but less than magpies.
Heyyyy great show all around, especially great art/artists, thanks for explanation and details that really make u feel like this is a real planet with so many distinct features in each culture-love hearing from only really a handful of streamers and I think you’re now moving upwards from 4th up towards 3rd and even 2nd so keep the great work..
I'd like to throw this curveball your way. It is my opinion, that A Song of Ice and Fire is not just Fantasy, but Sci-Fi as well with some post-apocalyptic elements. For instance, when Valyria is referenced and the blood magic, it is possible that GRRM set up those details as a parallel to our "advanced" civilization. The stories are told from the perspective of people who have no understanding of science, so when they here of alterations to the "blood" of a person mixed with an animal, they think magic. But magic and science have always been one and the same. Sure there is blatant magic in A Song of Ice and Fire, however there is usually a basis for where that magic comes from and it's limitations, much like our understanding of the Laws of Physics. Physics just doesn't work the same in that world of course. To get back to think point, Valyria seems as if it's an Atlantis of sorts that left it's mark on the world before destroying itself. By advanced I don't mean laserbeams and space travel, I mean 19th-20th century technology with elements far beyond their time.
Death things in water and even Brienne's fever dreams almost seems like an analogue for Hades and ferrying souls in the underworld. And related to that, Euron is like Davy Jones to me. And he's not doing what he's supposed to be doing.
"No doubt, if this boy saw the face of the Drowned God, he'd go insane - that's the most Lovecraftian thing I've ever heard." ~ Quinn Made me "Teeheehee" out loud, man. Quite true.
Just love the layers of this when you add in the heraldry. And how often characters, especially the Lannisters, identify themselves and others with their sigils. Really plays into the man/beast idea. Is there a difference? Biologically? Socially? Or just different shades. Also, "green men" brings up for me how green/earth is a third element besides ice and fire. We see green (and brown) paired with earth a lot, much like blue and ice are paired and red and fire are too.
This was really interesting, i never knew that the world of Ice and Fire had this much fantastical elements its almost borderline sword and sorcery like the Conan the Barbarian books which is a surprise to me since i have always considered the song of Ice and fIre to be on the lower end of low fantasy thanks to the show. I really gotta pick up the books sometime.
It's usually the opposite. Cave dwellers evolve NO eyes, or simpler, lesser eyes. Big eyes are in primates who swing through trees, or megabats who fly through air.
I also believe the Shadow Lands to be the origin of the Great Empire of the Dawn, I reckon Asshai was its capital which would explain why it's the largest city in the known world. My theory is that the Shadow Lands were actually bountiful fertile lands in the dawn of days, but some event, perhaps the coming of the Bloodstone, transformed the region into the inhospitable place it is now. And I also believe that the very first Dragon Lords emerged there during the time of the Great Empire of the Dawn.
This is a great vid. Love your ideas, all totally valid. GRRM has created a world that stimulates our minds to hunger for more, for answers. That is success for a writer. Thank you for this, loved it
Please feel free to leave your totally non derivative comments about how elephants bury their dead here:
Non Derivative Comment about how the one guy sounds like Justin Roiland
IdeasOfIceAndFire Elephants are well known to recognize death and interact in a ritualistic manner with their dead.
And this very probably spans many more different species of different orders outside the primate order.
Yes they do a 3day sad looking heads hung mourning , ive never heard of any animal actually burying the dead however
IdeasOfIceAndFire what would you say is a good book of lovecraft, to start with? I always hear comparison to his books. I'm interested in delving into a good source material.
Clovis and Ravens bury the dead
One subtle thing I love about George's writing is how he describes westeros in the eyes of other peoples. "Men of iron in stone houses". Gives you the sense that to the people of Essos westeros seems like a land where men are ruled by lions and ancient evils lurk behind every corner, while from our pov we see the truth is far more mundane. I like to imagine that the way we see the rest of the world in GoT is similar. We hear about "bloodstone emperors" and "lands of shadow" when likely the truth is far more realistic and probably includes its own characters trapped up in their little game of thrones
I agree. Whilst I loved this video, I think these guys may be taking some of the garbled rumour of far off lands a bit too literally. I think a lot of this is “here be dragons” stuff, rather than accurate reportage.
Will Mosse I agree that many of the stories and rumors are likely exaggerated or speak of times long past (the truth of which warped over the aeons), BUT we must also remember that this world *is* populated by fantastical creatures like actual dragons, giants, impish/elfish little forest people, ice men that control dead bodies, sorcerers walking in the skins of beasts, resurrecting noble warriors with some kind of holy fire magic, seers that can peer into past events & influence them to some degree, in order to alter the present moment! Plus All sorts of other crazy things besides!
In this context..What is so unbelievable about some strange, rare, unique or magical creatures that still prowl the world in far off lands?
That's am interesting thought
I doubt it.
Ik I'm late but your comment is simply amazing.
you say "strangely fish-like", I prefer the term "fishily fishy"
That was truly cringe-worthy.
To deal with fish creature we need The Cat if he can be bothered leaving Red Dwarf
""Just kill all the foreigners", this is straight Lovecraft right here"
Brilliant!
Truly lol haha
+Ideasoficeandfire Elephants not only bury their own dead, they'll bury anything dead they come across, to the point where an elephant that accidentally trampled a human woman and child in a panic stopped to bury them with branches and leaves before going about the rest of it's day. Funeral rites are actually reasonably common amongst certain intelligent mammals and avians.
and some people say this demonstrates early religious tendencies in other mammals, giving a somewhat explanation to why humans created religion. to comfort ourselves in the face of death/showing respect to the dead while their 'souls' live on
Did tk oe that but somehow i find it extremely hopeful and sad.
@@agustasister5624 What is sad about it ?
Harry D there’s videos on TH-cam of Elephants burying their dead and a lot of stuff online about it.
I paused tha video and scrolled down to tha comments to find this information
Thanks
The elf and mermaid/siren talk reminded me of this quote.
“Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.”
― Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies
I recognized that quote from the first line :) lords and ladies is one of my favorite pratchett books.
Another great comparison regarding elves/faerie comes from The Wise Man's Fear from the Kingkiller Chronicles series by Patrick Rothfuss. It describes the difference between men and fae as that between water and alcohol. To paraphrase - both are clear liquids, and in a clear glass bottle may be mistaken for one another. But that is where similarities end; they are as different as can be in every other way. One nourishes and fosters life, the other poisons and corrodes. One quenches fire, the other is flammable.
There's an old Irish folktale, of a Fisherman who hit his wife when he ran out of tobacco and couldn't go to shore in a storm. So these Elves come by riding sea-horses, think horses that walk on water, no inference of fishiness I think. But they rode up to his shore, and took the fisherman to town across the water to get his tobacco. On the way back, they tossed him in the water and made him defecate himself, etc etc. Scared and terrorized him, than brought him back home and told him if he hits his wife again they will come back and beat some ass! So that is one example of their complicated relationship in lore.
The truly remarkable thing is, that Pratchett's version of the elves is the one closest to the original "ælf" from germanic mythology.
knowledge= power = energy = mass × speed of light squared
Cracking open a Deep Old one with the boys.
Hmm "Kraken open a Deep Old one with the boys"
@@rejoyy damn I was going to tell him he really missed an opportunity to say kraken open a deep old one lol
@@deathknought 7ll67l
@@rejoyy l7l767ll7y
😆 k
Those forests in Essos are made from the black trees with blue leaves - the exact opposite of the Weirwood trees. Both trees are magic, both dont rot & both become stone after being cut after a long time.
That's probably where the black oily stone comes from & they use the blue leaves for shade if the eveneing.
Not sure if the children there are opposite of the weirwood children or not.
I never heard this before, wow. Can I have a source?
Could this be the source for the blue 'Sorcerer's Wine'?
@@curtpowell3795 Yes, absolutely. That's not a theory, it's a fact within the text. Dany is told during her time in Qarth that the Warlock's "shade of the evening" comes from those black trees.
@@curtpowell3795 it is
@@curtpowell3795yes that is shade of the evening. I think those trees were weirwoods originally but got mutated after the meteor fell
In the words of master Theron I'm not saying it's the deep ones but it is the deep ones
heh heh heh
Acko Manah also the ancient aliens guy
It is known.
@@DavidLightbringer HIIIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!!!!!
Some animals do have death rituals.
Elephants gather around the fallen one to say goodbye
Crows bury other dead crows
Yuuuup
Amazing.
Orcas, Whales, our own pets. 😢
I love all these little nods to Lovecraft in ASOIAF, we'l probably never get to see the Deep Ones (if they exist) but that's what's so endearing about keeping them in the background, a technique Lovecraft himself used to build dread and horror :')
In fact, it's almost certainly we'll never see them. George himself has said about the guy who finished Lovecraft's work after he died that he didn't get the point and that he should've let the mysteries of the Lovecraft world remain mysteries because they were more effective that way.
@@OneOnOne1162 In all fairness, Lovecraft also tended to tell rather than show and would take ideas from others and over-explain them. Also, it was a group of his friends who continued to make Cthulhu mythos stories, no single person took over after he died.
@@Tacityoshi1234 George referred to a single person whom he blamed for what I laid out. Also, I'm simply explaining what George's opinion is so far as I understand it, not my own. So if you disagree, I suggest you take it up with George. Either way it doesn't matter though, because George's take is: After Lovecraft died that guy overexplained things that should've remained vague, if he hated that I doubt he'd do the same thing. That was my point.
You’re dumb af
Most creatures who live most of their time underground (caves) wouldn’t have giant cat eyes, they lose their eyes or they grow smaller. However night time hunters... like cats have big eyes because they rely on the moonlight which isn’t present underground. Just my non expert opinion. Still a great vid boys.
Jeremiah P I meant to distinguish between nocturnal and cave dwelling, because yes you are correct.
we all slip over the details, yall are still smart Dudes!
You do know some caves actually create it's own unnatural light in some caves that's been proven how the light created is sometimes never figured out and some have been so no that statement is inaccurate about cave beings just saying.
If you actually own a cat, and I do, you'll realise they get very active around early dawn and late dusk, as they would hunt in the twilight if we didn't feed them pouches of fish in gravy. Believe me a healthy cat still has those instincts. She was rescued from our garden and was a little sad and non engaging when we first got her with no hunting wish, mainly because her previous idiot owner we contacted never treated her hernia and fleas.
Troglodytes
I totally agree with the idea of how the babies are used to make White Walkers. But I will elaborate further. Obviously a theory but I think it holds water in relation to Georges writing style of fantastic realism.
I think its possible to create a white walker from any humans life force, however the reason for using babies could be for 2 distinct purposes. One is that maybe the children have a stronger life force in that larval stage of growth. But the aspect I want to theorise on is this. Babies are used because they have not yet established a distinct identity. I imagine that memories and identity could be transfered to the new white walker through this transference of life force. So you would only want the sources to be young mentally unformed children so that this new walker could be easily established in whatever culture they have. It probably wouldnt take long for the child mind to forget ever being human.
This could also explain why Cold Hands seems to have a mind of his own. Maybe this is a person who was subject to this ritual and retained a large portion of their human identity
This is actually a really good theory! Because it's said somewhere that wights do have some memory of their past life. So that maybe explains why adults and older children only turn into wights because it's more difficult to actually turn them into white walkers due to their memories and identity they have built up, they might fight against it more than simply just being turned into a wight.
Cool idea!
@@kirstycoo97 The possibility that it's difficult to make adult White Walkers might mean that Coldhands is an important person. Not Benjen or the Night's King or whatever, but someone else we haven't met yet.
CR Smyth awesome idea!
Whales don't "burry" their dead, per-say, but they do hold funerals for their dead. They spend hours or even days circling their fallen friend while singing to them. I've heard stories from my uncle (a professional sailor) of his crew and others passing by some of these funerals before. He said it was the saddest thing he ever heard :(
Giraffes will do something similar as well!
And elephants. They even recognize the skeletons on dead relatives as they migrate through places where they died.
They also steal people's children when they lie and steal other people's husbands and can't hold up their end of the deal about having their babies so they just steal other people's babies...... then try to turn those babies into her slaves
@@Amanda-cd6dm Um, what?
Correcting other people while spelling it “per say” huh
If the influence of the old ones is related to proximity, it may explain why worship is regional, the new in the south and the old in the north...maybe something is sleeping closer to the north...
ferniek5000 makes the most sense, which is why EVERY character in ASOIAF that has been North always says everything feels different up there... even the gods feel different
ferniek5000 ea
The greenseers are sleeping there? Southerners feel strange around the weirwoods. I think the old gods are the old ones
regarding the Lovecraft influence around 1:15:00, many well respected fantasy / sci-fi authors have lifted from and made direct reference to the Lovecraftian Mythos. Even Lovecraft's contemporaries contributed to the Mythos and he personally was thrilled and incorporated the references into his further writings. so Martian isn't ripping anyone off, he's continuing a literary tradition of shared universes.
Tomato/Tomato
Bloodless men might be vampires
I wouldn't refer to vampires as bloodless personally, but more as bloodsucker, bat, leech, undead or nightwalker. Bloodless would be their victims.
I thought of robots... or some kind of automatons/golems. Or some Wights.
@@TheLastSoundNL some incarnations of vampires have as being so pale its as if they had no blood
The Roose is loose!
Vampires would be full of blood.
As usual, great discussion. Martin’s ability to meld these myths pleases my inner nerd to no end. Thanks for spilling the beans, LmL. Also, great voice work and new format, Ideas of Ice & Fire.
Right on Melanie! Glad you enjoyed it!
1000 islands were defeated by House Ranch
Narrowly defeating the Russian army!
@@d.m.collins1501 they have legends of the ancient hero, Azul Queso
@@crisdes7260 who came from the strong keep called Garlic Castle
My mind melted from this. Man, Martin goes so deep with his plot lines.
On my map of the known world for A Song of Ice and Fire, there's a bunch of ice floats near the northern edge. Makes me think maybe there was a land bridge that connected to the Grey Wastes. There's also the fact that, in one of the legends concerning the Long Night, demons came out of the Grey Wastes. So the theory that the two continents were connected probably has something to it.
I've got a few things to say:
1) I think the Woodwalkers are dead. I think the Weirwoods are all connected, every single one, hence the deep roots required for them to grow, and the neuron-like connection for Greenseers. And when the children brought the sea down on the Arm of Dorne, they severed the connection between Essos and Westeros, cutting off the Woodwalkers and weakening them till the Ibbenese killed them
2) The White Walkers may not be able to go into the sea, but the wights probably can.
3) Garth Greenhand is one of the old ones.
The children worship the old ones.
The Lengii worship the old ones.
The Naathi worship Garth.
The Naathi look like the Lengii.
The Lengii look like the children.
When you said, that The Others are "Ice Golems"... I thought of what you said in this video a bit earlier about the Stone Man. The Shrouded Lord was made out of a stone figure. The Children animated Trees. The dragons are "Fire made flesh" and they hatch from stone eggs - what if they are not petrified but they always where stone eggs. I bet every 'Golem' needs a human connection to come to life. A sacrifice (babies for The Others), bond (sleeping with dragon eggs). Stone men are humans being 'eaten' by stone. And the children probably had to make blood sacrifices to animate trees. Oh... and don't forget Shadow Babies - they needed Kings Blood.
I'm in general agreement here
Love this collaboration, can’t wait to listen. And great voiceover work, Quinn!
Since you mentioned not being aware of other creatures having a death ritual other than maybe other primeapes, I think I should mention scientists have debated over whether Ravens do, as often Ravens will return to the site of a fallen flock member and bring little tokens to leave at the body IIRC.
Salamon2 Interesting. Elephants also tend to return to the site of a fallen flock member to engage in collective mourning. I believe a number of primates also venerate the bodies of their dead. In general, I believe the consensus among biologists and scholars of religion is moving towards a view where death rituals (and religious rituals in general - cf. the chimpanzee waterfall dance) are not at all something uniquely human. Similarly, a number of species, e.g. whales and dolphins, exhibit signs of culture. That is, they have practices (songs, hunting methods) that spread in fashions by learning-the way human culture does-rather than being determined by genotype etc. The bad news in all this is that resurrecting extinct species becomes less viable. We might be able to restore animals with mammoth genotype and phenotype, but mammoth culture is forever lost. For a good recent book on animals and religion, read 'Religious Affects' by Donovan Schaefer.
Cool, thanks for the info guys! I love learning about animal intelligence - we keep finding they are smarter than we thought. :)
Leaving tokens by the body is probably more a desperate way to encourage an 'ill' group member to keep going... Wait a minute... is THAT how funeral rituals started?
Growing up I had two generations of crows spend a lot of time with me. The first I was 7 or 8 . A crowd chick had fallen from its nest into the river where I grew up. I waded in and scoped it up. Raised that bird. Every year it came back perched on the same fence cawed and waited for me to come visit. It would hop on my shoulder and clean my hair. 5 years or so later it cawed I came out this time it and it's mate were there, I was introduced now there were two. Their chicks hatched again I was introduced while they were fledglings. That family murder came back and visited every year until I left at 20 years old. If they will do that I'm damn sure they will have habits or ritual for the dead.
Also, a primeape is a Pokémon
Just to clarify the dream Gods otherwise known as the great ones who reside in the city of K'dath are not the same group of entities known as the great old ones who are the extraordinarily powerful outer gods.
In Dreamquest of Unknown Kadath Nyarlothotep resides in Kadath at the end though, and he's a sort of avatar of Azathoth, the most powerful outer god of them all.
IdeasOfIceAndFire Ha. They overshot when naming the more local entities so when the time came to refer somehow to the primordial, celestial beings they were stuck. Like "greater older ones..?"
Niether elder God's.
I would like you to clarify why two minutes into this video you assume the children of the forest look like they do because of "evolution, adapting to their environment", citing evolution in the real world. Evolution is a THEORY, it is NOT a scientifically proven fact. One species turning into another in order to adapt to their environment has never been recorded. Very presumptuous, dishonest, and you are projecting what you WANT to be fact instead of admitting the truth. That you don't know.
@@porkflaps4717 scientific theory doesn't mean what you think it means
Please keep in mind that the information from A world of ice and fire is not gospel. It's written as an in universe text written by a westerosi maester who is looking at second and third hand accounts, so his description of lands becomes less and less accurate the further from westeros it is. Also keep in mind that Martin regularly includes people spreading half truths and fabrications about the events in past books, so he is well versed in the way stories change in the telling.
@ to be fair Tolkeins works are the same, the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and the lord of the rings are all supposed to be works in universe. in his letters Tolkien even mentions this, the Silmarillion is supposed to be written by the elves and its events have been warped by time and nostologia.
Just like the Bible
"men that soar like eagles on leather wings"
Me: hang gliders?
Channel: bird people!
exactly what I think. They live "....within the Mountains of the Morn" why not leather hang gliders from mountain tip to mountain tip
Honestly surprised they didn’t say dragon riders
People crossed with bats? Someone did this sort of magical aided cross-breeding in the past I believe.
I think this is a subtle reference to Windhaven, GRRM & Lisa Tuttle's science fiction novel. He has been known to reference his other work in the past eg. Bakkalon
Pando is a massive colony of Quaking Aspen Trees with one central, connected root system. Pando is located near Fish Lake in central southern Utah, its about 80,000 years old, and the Forest Service think that it is actually dying.
thanks Danii
:D I live just north. Its truely breathtaking.
Danii Lyric what’s killing it
@@JJJJJVVVVVLLLLL Take a guess.
Here in the UK we have a massive network of connected mycelium of the fungus, psilocybe semilanceata. It stretches from the Black Mountains in Wales , South to Bodmin Moor in Cornwall, and North as far as the Yorkshire Moors. All one huge connected organism.
I do think that Daenerys could be a skinchanger due to her great-grandmother being Betha Blackwood. Out of all the houses in Westeros, Aegon V's wife is from the same house as Bloodraven. GRRM doesn't do anything by accident. There's also Melantha
Blackwood who is the great-great grandmother to the current Stark children.
EvanSol919 The Starks are wargs bc a King of Winter killed the Warg King of the Neck and married his daughter.
Hooded apes are a reference to orangutans. Male orangutans have a swelling around their necks and faces sometimes called a "hood". It's not that they wore clothing.
Re Patchface: there's a literary parallel. In the novel Moby Dick, a cabin boy is washed off board the ship. He is alone in a vastness of infinite blue sky and sea. By a miracle, he's found and hauled back on board, but he has gone mad. A madness that inspires Captain Ahab, himself a madman.........
In regards to the deep ones, i feel everyone forgets in A Game Of Thrones, i think the first tyrion chapter, he makes a one off comment of fishermen from Lanisport seeing mermaids, half man half fish, could be nothing or could be GRRM subtly adding that their still out there
i'm only at the beginning and this already feels like a creepypasta... YOU GOT MY ATTENTION NOW BUDDY.
I don't believe Garth Greenhand is an old one in that sense. He has a name. He is not one of the faceless nameless gods the children also worship. It's said he brought agriculture, which would go against the children of the forest. They had conflict because the first men would cut down trees to start farming in order to sustain themselves instead of living directly off nature. He is not really a forest god nor a god of the greenwood.
There is also a difference in meaning with a description and title. The old ones could be a title or a name, but opposed to new gods it is more of a description and relative. Like an old man to a toddler could be 30 years old, but to a 50 year old woman he is not. Imagine that the Andals didn't impose a new religion in Westeros, then those "old gods" could just be "the gods".
What if Garth is an Agricultural Fertility God that exists in farming cultures.
@@covenawhite4855 Most likely considering he is said to have fathered a lot of children from maidens, make crops grow plentiful and sprout lots of seeds. Guy has a big bag of seeds and probably ploughed a lot, in more ways than 1 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
A man has a point...
TOP 5, QUINN! This amazing video is solidly in my Top 5 favorites of ASOIAF material you have produced and shared with us. Big thank you and well done to you and LML!!! Also, your analyses which tie in H.P. Lovecraft have convinced me to check out his works for myself. Ordered and on its way!
Leng Is definitely from Lovecraft Leng itself is an actual location in Lovecraftian Mythos: Leng is a fictional cold arid plateau in the Cthulhu Mythos, whose location seems to vary entirely from story to story. The Plateau of Tsang, referenced by H. P. Lovecraft and other authors, is probably a region of Leng.
Lovecraft's fictional character Abdul Alhazred describes it as a place where different realities converge, which might explain why its precise location cannot be pinned down.
Sounds like a hinge in the world to me by the way.
Cool info man, thanks. "Abdul Alhazred," huh? Azor Ahai the Red?
51:21 "I can't talk about what happens on the show. IDK what they're doing."
Neither did they.
The giants in Skyrim are a peaceful race that only attack when provoked according to the lore. The mermaids in Pirates of the Caribbean were quite dangerous and deadly as well.
Mostly yes but they do sense weakness and will expand territory when they have to, like with the orc Stronghold that was under attack since they were cursed and weaker
The giants have also apparently had civil relations with other races, like the Dwemer.
"the others are related to the children of the forest..." theyre the adults of the forest haha
More like the sketchy uncle's of the forrest
Haha
Weak
Hi Kanye, you cute.
I honestly don't get how anyone can "dislike" these videos.
Disliked your comment, too.
Yeah this is even better than most videos that discusses the topics by showing a lot of the art visuals representing the topics they talk about
To be fair, The Brindled Men sound too much like Orcs.
Wrong wrong wrong.
18:50...omg...it's the legend of Man-Bear-Pig
I started watching this while waiting for a download. Almost two hours later I realized my wife called me 10 times wondering where I was haha. Great stuff, the Lovecraft similarities fascinated me. Cheers.
Quinn is the best reader ever...should narrate the books since the previous narrator passed away
Cameron Charles rest in peace Roy Dotrice
Cameron Charles absolutely💖
IdeasOfIceAndFire=The 🐐
Cameron Charles
Roy Dotrice...
Is that the annoying guy who never shuts up in any of their communal videos and who seems quite taken with his own opinions?
What a great discussion. This is pure gold. Please keep doing this stuff. I know it's a year old, but boy, how interesting!
Really enjoyed this one. I listened at work and was so relaxing as you both having soothing voices :)
Angelina Ahai does it sound like the Old ones sound a lot like volcanoes simulator to the 14 flames?
Angelina, is your dads name Azor?
Akinlolu Oderinde Yes, Yes it is, but controversially Nissa Nissa is not my Mum 😜
😁Glad to hear that. Still, warn her to be wary of scenarios involving bare breasts and swords 😉
Game of Thrones ASMR 😂
I love this new format for these long videos
Add in the Robert E Howard stuff! There's so many references from him that you can distinguish too rather than Lovecraft.
Lovecraft's works are amazing, but Howard added so much to that world, and is similar but sooooooo much different. I feel like most of his influence is forgotten, and picked from further proceedings of his work, but game of thrones has so much that is related to his work!
I underestimated Howard's work because of the movies and comics that came out the past 20 years, but his work in and off book from almost 100 years ago was revolutionary
For guys who are so up on your myths and lit references, I'm sort of bummed you missed the wierd sisters/wyrd/weyward connection- being most commonly associated with the witches from Macbeth (though they're not really quite witches in some older things it's complicated) and thus associated with magic and prophesy, but then having been derived possibly from the old word for fate (wyrd) and having to do with Norns, but also that tradition and reading seem to suggest that those women may have been held in some sort of Scottish mythological context preMacbeth or considered some sort of farie folk. I mean... they're fate trees and not really understood. It's sort of right there.
Literally 4 years later........I noticed the Scottish myth and lore influences in GRRM's works just recently. Glad Im not the only one! Cheers from 2022
Yes! This was exactly what I needed 😁 the editing was perfect too!
All the work you have done for the series is so unique and eye opening. You have reveled many secrets and an overall understanding of ASOIAF, but I think more than that, you have discovered a way (Georges way rather) that each characters arc is laid out. And now that the story makes more sense we can guess at the many paths of the future ( when expectations are subverted it will be because their are so many options). Thank you for your hard work, here's to your health! (Love Quinn)
I've always thought of the others as being Martin's version of the Dannie Sidhe (nature spirits of Spring and Summer, growth and rebirth) and the Others as his version of the Kai Sidhe (nature spirits of Fall and Winter, decay and death).
I love the art you chose for all the topics. This is such great listening while I'm playing games solo. Thank you, and keep 'em coming!
Oh that made me laugh “can other trees be used for... peeping”
"Watchers on the Wall," similar description to a gargoyle perhaps, which are stone men/creatures and can be found at Winterfell too. Leading to the stone kiss from a woman/other
We are all aware that MArtin WILL NEVER explain the origins of things like (1)The Five Forts, (2)The Oily Black Stone found around the world, (3)The Origins of the Maze Makers, etc....that's what Martin meant when in an interview he said that his created world is an illusion, like an iceberg in reverse, where it looks like it's 90% complete, but in reality there's only 10% really of substance, when compared to Tolkien's. In other words, where Tolkien explained, in detail, the creation of the world (in the Silmarillion) beginning with "The Void" and no planet, Martin offers no such detail, not even close. I mention this because I gurantee that NOT EVEN MARTIN has come up with the origins/answers of the topics you guys discussed in this video, I bet, he's never even THOUGHT OF THEM! I mention that just to question the utility of postulating about all this esoteric stuff from the World of Ice and Fire, because not only will we never receive the answer or clarification, even if we did, it would't add anything or have any bearing on the ASoIaF series and its characters....
But as people we will do it anyway. Expecially when someone creates a world that feels this real.
Also Tolkien work is way to whimsical and at some points makes no sense.
Yeah he would rather talk about the food on the dinner table.
That's all assuming that authorial intent even means anything in literature-- most critics today agree that it doesn't, and I think we can extend that from "literary" fiction to fantasy. The World of Ice and Fire is a living work-- a system of myth that other authors can and will continue to expand upon without Martin. If GRRM died tomorrow (God forbid, naturally), another equally adept writer-- Gaiman or Mieville, let's say-- could easily get permission to publish a group of short fiction in this universe. And fan fiction, while not "canonical", is still valid. If ASOIAF is something that captivates and engages the creative talents of an individual, then its THEIR legacy by right of the collective unconscious. I don't think waiting around for Martin to answer these questions is logical or really necessary. Why is Asshai under-populated and made of oily black stone? Is the World of Ice and Fire round- with the Sunset Sea leading back to the Saffron Straits? What caused the Doom? GRRM doesn't have to answer these questions for me or for you. If you're engaged with these narratives to such an extent that you concern yourself with these intriguing loose ends, then YOUR creative responses are as valid as anyone else's. And if you honestly believe Martin will NEVER write about The City of Winged Men or the Grey Waste or whatever else you think is captivating but overlooked, you should write it yourself. A copyright isn't a magical weapon and doesn't bestow some sacrosanct authority upon the one who possesses it. Your landlord may own your apartment building, but its still YOUR home. Hang a damn Rothko print on the wall and put in all the shelves your heart desires. Life is short.
This will all be public domain in a few decades anyway and then you'll be able to do whatever you please. And the world, like any fantasy universe, belongs to the readers already. Fantasy has a populist lineage of belonging to EVERYONE-- like folktales and epic poetry. It's bigger than one bearded novelist from Chicago-- and I'm sure he knows that.
Just food for thought.
Questioning/extrapolating from an esoteric story based on the evidence that you have available is what historians do. History is incomplete and always becomes mythologized because no one was ACTUALLY THERE to witness 99.9999% of all things that ever occurred. I just see these kinds of videos as a sort of historical analysis of the world that exists within the books.
Ideas may just be insane. He believes that the world of Ice and Fire is controlled by Cthulhu. Nothing wrong with that, but come on. He may be overthinking this.
"Y'know the thing about a wight shark, he's got... lifeless eyes, blue eyes, like a doll's eyes. When he comes at ya, doesn't seem to be livin'... until he bites ya."
Thanks guys, I am never going in the ocean again. LOL!
Ocean man, take me by the hand...
Great work, guys. I just wanted to point out that Martin is not *copying* Lovecraft or Tolkien when he uses ideas from their universes - he is paying tribute. This is well understood among authors and we need to realize that fantasy fiction is our modern version of legend, and it's like legends passed down orally in ancient times in which each generation took its predecessors and expanded. In reality, fantasy authors have to rely mainly on existing mythology, tropes, and universes, so their work is understandable to readers. I find it interesting when readers criticize this and claim to want 100% originality. Trust me - they don't, bc it requires hundreds of pages of boring exposition and publishers don't publish that anyway.
This great. A great discussion and the dope artworks makes it loads better.
If this came up already I apologize, I’m five years late without a coffee! But while listening to this, when you were talking about Gogossos, it immediately reminded me of Golgotha - even more so after you mentioned how evil a place it is. Dunno if this is where GRRM was going with it, but finding all the places he bases his world off of is one of my favorite parts of the world building.
This is great, thanks to you both!
Okay you got me with the Faun from Pans Labyrinth
Your discussion about human animal hybrids sparked an idea in my head. It's been maybe two decades since I've read Congo by Michael Crichton, but I seem to recall a plot point of the book being this idea that memories can be genetically encoded and passed down to generation (sorry if I'm wrong). What if in the ASOIAF universe, in a reversal of that concept, consciousness can carry genetic information.
I'd assume that GRRM wouldn't allow for hybrids the bestiality, due to him being a stickler to science. But what if mating wargs can produce hybrids of some sort? Mating while warged is a big no-no, what if that's because of the offspring produced from the actions? What if Dany's fits of boldness during book 1 where from Drogon warging her, which then in turn caused her to give birth to the scaly child?
Gregory Draheim I think you’re on the something buddy
Targaryens are historically known for producing twisted, monsterous, stillborn offspring, likely due to their incestuous Valaryan origins.
@@josharntt and sure whatever else their deal is
@18:45
this is an example of *post zygotic reproductive isolation*
speciation has a lot of variants, post zygotic being the most accurate in this instance
Absolutely died laughing at the Underpants Gnomes analogy. Good stuff.
Neanderthals are a different species, same genus. Just thought I'd let you know :)
Looking forward to listening to the rest :)
Yep I knew we screwed that up somehow. Been awhile since 10th grade bio, ha ha
This is actually under debate still, and most paleoanthropologists are moving toward Neanderthals being a subspecies (or a simply a geographic variation). If you ever see someone refer to Homo sapiens neaderthalensis, you’ve wandered into the subspecies camp. If Homo neanderthalensis, then they fall into he same genus but different species camp. Just wanted to add a bit to your comment in case interested parties went on to investigate and found conflicting/confusing terminology!
It could be that the Lengii are just another variety or a subspecies of TCOTF. Based on what you two guys discussed in the video, the only difference seems to be the height, which may just be the result of long-time isolation from the rest of the species (Children). Height is a trait that changes very quickly through evolution so maybe it's just that, without cross-breeding with the Old Ones.
By the very definition of "Species" Neanderthals are not a
different species. The concept of them being a different species is a historic
hangover from a time when speciation was less well understood. Basically
different species cannot interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Modern
Humans and Neanderthals interbred and human populations still have Neanderthals
DNA, which has some interesting results for human biology.
Ian Armstrong This is absolutely false. There are different species that can mate and create fertile offspring, for instance, female ligers have been fertile and bred with male lions.
Grizzly Bears and Polar Bears, Servals and Domestic cats, Wolves and Dogs, some species of frogs.
And clearly, a Pug and a Great Dane are not the same species, it could be argued they are subspecies, but even if you want to take the Neanderthal and Homo Sapien subspecies argument, the difference between those two dogs is far more phenotypically different, even though they are classified the same species. The classification of the animal kingdom is loose at best, we can determine the number of chromosomes a certain creature has and it can still reproduce an offspring that takes the average between the two parents.
We haven't even begun to understand DNA.
Let's not forget there are crows from all around the world identified as different subspecies with different phenotypical, genetic and behavioral patterns that can reproduce effectively together but no one wants to breech the subject of different humans being related subspecies by speciation because DAS RAYCISS and every biologist and anthropologist that wants to study it has their funding cut.
This discussion format is brilliant. Thanks.
So if the green men have the golden eyes, are tall, have "antlers" could be horns, and then all you would need is the scales, I wouldn't rule out lizard men showing up potentially, the green men are sounding more and more like them each time I hear about them. We think of cat eyes for children/old ones but reptiles have similar looking eyes...
Gelaar Veer oooh maybe a more primitive aggressive children of the forest.
Honestly Naath sounds AMAZING. Book me a trip to Naath, sounds chill AF bro
The Children remind me of the elves of Elfquest. Small in stature, humanoid, large eyes, four fingered, wood-dwelling, magic abilities and there was a storyline in the elfquest series where the elves traveled to a new land in the west where-after 700 years,they went into 10000 year slumber, woke up and found themselves surrounded by humans in medieval times. I think the creators of the elfquest universe borrowed a lot from Martin-who in turn-borrowed a lot from history and other fantasy/sci fi stories.
Quinn, I just love the improvements you made in your video production. I listen to a video nearly every night.
Little late to this video, but thank you for the great content! I've just started researching GOT history and the creatures have been on my list for awhile. 👍
This video was mind blowing, I think you guys are on the right path! I'm so happy that you and Lucifer means Lightbringer made this. Do more togheter!
P.S. Mushrooms are cool AF.
38:40 That sounds like something D & D could've done. Only with no explainations, just the "badass fighting".
Holy roast
20:00 Watching this before sleep was a mistake, that image will live in my nightmares
Thanks LML for linking this to your channel. It was soooo good! I thought you both worked really well together and it was a very interesting topic to discuss - one I haven't really thought about before. Also, great introduction to me to Ideas of Ice and Fire. Liked this a lot - thanks to both of you. :)
1:22:25 Is it just me or is that describing a petrified forest of weirdwood trees? Could imply they were once much more abundant on the surface of what became Westeros, and due to some event or another, geological or natural or magical or whatever, got buried by volcaninc-like material and petrified.
10:30 Just to be clear, y'all know that the Naathi are humans yeah? Missandei is one
Edit: Also y'all are talking about how the Giants are intelligent because they bury their dead...The first time we see a Giant in the books it's talking smack about Jon to Torumd. I'd say they're pretty intelligent
i dont think the show counts for much here.
@@dancysmith5105 okay... those were both things from the book and show. Missandei says shes Naathi in both and in the books shes just a 10 year old black girl with bright brown eyes, and in the show shes a late teens black woman with brown eyes. And in the book Jon and Tormund go to see the giants in the caravan of wildlings to settle a bet and their chief rides past on his mammoth and starts roasting Jon in the Old Tounge for not having any facial hair before also greeting Tormund as a friend. In the show the giant just walks past at some point and says basically the same thing.
@@skilledwarman i like your little edit where you changed the word show to books. i knew all this, i've read the books 4 times fool. you said show, lol
Re-Listening to this one ... Still one of my favorites!
Ugh this video is perfect.
Good job BBM & LML! Great conversation fellas! Nice editing/cuts etc..!
I'd love to hear this happen some more! Maybe even a small BBM/LML Channel! If I didn't get extremely sick I'd be up & running by now - but don't count me out! I'm getting my mic etc soon.
Valar Morghulis...!
🦂🔥🐍 - *TRV*
Elephants have death rituals too.
That's cool... and of course Elephants are very smart. I love animal intelligence, it's a fascinating topic. That's one of the reasons I have pet parrots!
Magpies, and Crows as well.
+Roland Deschain Yeah Magpies have these odd funerals involving sitting with the dead and unconfirmed reports of laying grass near the bodies. Crows have odd reactions to dead crows that are similar but less than magpies.
Crows and Ravens are smart as fuck. Look up some youtube videos on it.
Heyyyy great show all around, especially great art/artists, thanks for explanation and details that really make u feel like this is a real planet with so many distinct features in each culture-love hearing from only really a handful of streamers and I think you’re now moving upwards from 4th up towards 3rd and even 2nd so keep the great work..
I'd like to throw this curveball your way.
It is my opinion, that A Song of Ice and Fire is not just Fantasy, but Sci-Fi as well with some post-apocalyptic elements.
For instance, when Valyria is referenced and the blood magic, it is possible that GRRM set up those details as a parallel to our "advanced" civilization.
The stories are told from the perspective of people who have no understanding of science, so when they here of alterations to the "blood" of a person mixed with an animal, they think magic.
But magic and science have always been one and the same.
Sure there is blatant magic in A Song of Ice and Fire, however there is usually a basis for where that magic comes from and it's limitations, much like our understanding of the Laws of Physics.
Physics just doesn't work the same in that world of course.
To get back to think point, Valyria seems as if it's an Atlantis of sorts that left it's mark on the world before destroying itself.
By advanced I don't mean laserbeams and space travel, I mean 19th-20th century technology with elements far beyond their time.
I really enjoyed this fresh collaboration with LML. Heaps of good information and theories. Thanks for the upload.
What if it's the dragons warging Targeryons? What if the hatching process is More successful the more malleable the Targeryon?
Death things in water and even Brienne's fever dreams almost seems like an analogue for Hades and ferrying souls in the underworld. And related to that, Euron is like Davy Jones to me. And he's not doing what he's supposed to be doing.
"No doubt, if this boy saw the face of the Drowned God, he'd go insane - that's the most Lovecraftian thing I've ever heard." ~ Quinn
Made me "Teeheehee" out loud, man. Quite true.
Just love the layers of this when you add in the heraldry. And how often characters, especially the Lannisters, identify themselves and others with their sigils. Really plays into the man/beast idea. Is there a difference? Biologically? Socially? Or just different shades. Also, "green men" brings up for me how green/earth is a third element besides ice and fire. We see green (and brown) paired with earth a lot, much like blue and ice are paired and red and fire are too.
This was really interesting, i never knew that the world of Ice and Fire had this much fantastical elements its almost borderline sword and sorcery like the Conan the Barbarian books which is a surprise to me since i have always considered the song of Ice and fIre to be on the lower end of low fantasy thanks to the show. I really gotta pick up the books sometime.
The way you guys did this video is brilliant, can't wait to see more of these!
That Beavis and Butthead laugh at 37:22
So good.
It's usually the opposite. Cave dwellers evolve NO eyes, or simpler, lesser eyes. Big eyes are in primates who swing through trees, or megabats who fly through air.
Big eyes means hunters who predate at night or in low light
If GRRM doesnt make an official one you guys are basically making an audio silmarillion of asoiaf. This channel is awesome.
I was googling about magical creatures on asoiaf but this is on another level. Good shit.
Great video in size and quality, I hope to see more videos with Lúcifer!
Thanks brother!
I also believe the Shadow Lands to be the origin of the Great Empire of the Dawn, I reckon Asshai was its capital which would explain why it's the largest city in the known world. My theory is that the Shadow Lands were actually bountiful fertile lands in the dawn of days, but some event, perhaps the coming of the Bloodstone, transformed the region into the inhospitable place it is now. And I also believe that the very first Dragon Lords emerged there during the time of the Great Empire of the Dawn.
This is a great vid. Love your ideas, all totally valid. GRRM has created a world that stimulates our minds to hunger for more, for answers. That is success for a writer. Thank you for this, loved it
prob the best podcast i've heard from either of these two loveable stoners