I always thought of the Abyss and Humanity as representing the existentialist concept of "existence preceeding essence." Souls and the First Flame are essence--Artorias's soul being his essence as an honorable knight--and the "Fading of the Flame" is the slow decay of essence. No matter what Artorias did, he would eventually no longer be a knight, due to age, injury or death. Artorias "goes mad by the Abyss" because in the wake of his failure, he's no longer that perfect knight and cannot handle this loss of essence. Humans, however, have no pre-defined essence: they are Hollow. Even if they lose their souls, they can always go out and find new ones. This is why Humanity and the Age of Dark scared the be-jesus out of Gwyn. Once Gwyn and the Age of Fire were gone, humans would simply re-invent themselves and construct a new essence. We never needed him. The "falsehood" discussed in Dark Souls 2 is the idea that Humans are dependent upon the Age of Fire for essence and thus must sacrifice themselves to perpetuate it, whereas the "true face of man" is that we have no true face. We can cast ourselves into the future and adapt to it--we can always reinvent ourselves--whereas Gwyn felt he was nothing without the power granted to him by the Age of Fire. The illusion of the Age of Fire is the idea that exteriorities define us: money, power, ability, social position, etc. However, the truth is that it is the interiorities that define us: our choices. When Vendrick tells us to "seek strength," it is the strength to define our own essences outside of the Age of Fire that he's talking about.
I think that in Hollows usurping the fire, it would create this interesting sense of autonomy of harmony of both fire and shadow to where instead living in absolute darkness and growing mad to eventually see the cycle repeat and a new age of fire emerging with new lords, we'd see humanity restored but in a world where darkness and fire are bound together.
I always thought it a cool connection of Vendrick saying "Inherit Fire and harness the Dark. Such is the Calling of a true leader" since you pretty much do that as Lord of Hollows
I mean, Gwyn DID go hollow once he was left without soul by linking the First Flame; he's just a VERY powerful one. Which if anything it gives more credence to the idea that the hollow-looking "THEY" shown in the cinematic are indeed the Lordsoul bearers, or akin to them. Even as far as DS3, The Nameless King, unambiguously the firstborn of Gwyn and therefore, a god, looks "undead". Humans becoming "human looking" is the consequence of taking in humanity, as the "restore humanity" game function spends it. But what is Humanity, if not a fragment of the First Flame? It's the Dark Soul after all, found within the First Flame by the furtive pigmy; not unlike the gods found their Lordsouls, maybe to the same effect- human like appearance. Only the Lordsouls seem to give great but ultimately short lived power dependent on the First Flame itself, while the Dark Soul gives relatively small power but it grows over time AS the First Flame fades (both by multiplying itself, and by the humans' ability to absorb souls; witch the gods are never alluded to have). I'll admit this DOES make the discussion muddled because then, "looking hollow" would be EVERYONE'S true form, not only human's. So maybe it does refer to a middle point: not only boasting the immortality and shape of the undead (which are more universal primordial characteristics) but one that on top of that, harnesses it's control of The Dark; long maligned and banned by the gods of Anor Londo for their fear of it. After all, if DS3 lore is to be considered, Humans gaining their dark souls didn't originally take away their immortality as it seemingly did with the gods- that was an Age of Fire development caused by Gwyn sealing the abyss within men with the Dark Sign (as explained in the Ringed Knight and Slave Knight armors- humans were immortal warriors wielding the power of the abyss from the start).
Uncle in Japanese can me a number of things depending on context. In fact it can even be used to a non-blood related male as a term of respect. I wonder if Gwyn's seal, the Dark Sign, is why hollows are so messed up. If the curse is overflowing dark, it could be that the tension between the dark and the seal is what causes the disfunction Would also like to say I love Vendrick's VA. Could listen to him all day.
Idk, I think Velka is done. There's nothing else to say about her, her character is pretty much well decided. They even revisited her concept with the Dusk Eyed Queen.
@@errantvice7335 What's SotEt? Tried searching it, inadvertently went down in the Hungarian Souls playthroughs rabbit hole. Edit: aaaaaaaaand I'm dumb as a thumb, it's the Elden Ring dlc :D
@@errantvice7335i thought it was silly. goofy-funny Aldia straddling a proverbial fence instead of my face is silly though, ain't nothin' proverbial about it dude is literally time traveling around well beyond light & dark, in physicality, not metaphor
I think humans are closer to dragons than one might think. The Lord of Hollows ending is basically recreating the Age of Ancients: a world of grey between Light and Dark governed by immortals who would lose that immortality in the presence of a new, separate Fire. Trees and stone are two things connected to dragons and their immortality and wouldn't you know it, they're two things humans can turn into once the Curse starts to break out.
In alchemical tradition, the soul is the volatile, metaphysical characteristic of humans that determines their individual nature and the mind/spirit attach the soul to a physical body to give it physical form. Because of this, I ascribe to the idea that the four Lords were initially Hollow before the Lord Souls produced by the First Flame gave their original bodies their transformed bodies. This is why in DS3 it seems like the Hollows on the High Wall of Lothric are turning back into trees. The giant, hollowed out Archtree named "The Great Hollow" in DS further fuels my belief in this hypothesis. Then there's Gwyn in the First Kiln that turned Hollow because his Soul, his inner Fire, was fading and almost completely gone along with his individuality, both physical and metaphysical. In regards to Allfather Lloyd: he's a construct. His coins only have value outside of Lordran since that's the only place he has authority. The reason I believe he's a construct is because of the inconsistency of the implied family line. There is zero mention of a father or mother for Gwyn so how can Lloyd be his uncle? What Lloyd probably is is a symbol of the gray Age of Ancients preceding the Age of Fire. If Gwyn's name in Welsh meaning "White" means anything, then Lloyd meaning "Gray" in Welsh is also significant. When you mix White (Light) and Black (Dark) you get Gray, a paradoxical union of opposites that is the goal of the Occult tradition irl of which Occult weapons are made in Dark Souls by ascending a mundane weapon with the Divine Ember (White) and then the Dark Ember (Black). Religions are prone to creating and appropriating symbols when they need to assert their dominance and having an Occult symbol appropriated into the dominant religion of the Way of White (Way of Gwyn) is something real world religions also do. As for the Abyss, Humanity, and the Dark, they are one and the same. Everything came from the Abyss including the Age of Ancients. The Abyss seems to represent the paradoxical First Matter that alchemy asserts everything came from. Since the Dark Orb sorcery says that its sorcery is soul with physical mass then that's what the Dark is: Soul with Mass. Humanity is Soul with Mass. The Abyss is Soul with Mass. Fire is the Light that cut through the Dark and split everything into opposites giving everything definition therefore creating Disparity. That is why when you burn Humanity at a Bonfire you get the false form of Humans with clearly defined, individual features whereas without burned Humanity you are a Hollow. Those are my two cents and am curious what others think.
It's implied that only humans hollow. Gwyn isn't hollow when we meet him, he's actually just dead and reanimated to defend the kiln. The Nameless King is the same
I think the question and answer both rely on a bigger question: How do we define what "Man" is? Is it our physical form? Is it our sapience and identity? Is it a prescriptive quality from some sort of progenitor form? Further, the bigger issue to point out is how the descriptions of the nature of humanity as described by Vendrick and Aldia run completely counter to what we learn in the Ringed City DLC about the Pygmies and their civilization, and what we have is an ultimately conflicting vision of the nature of humanity and its in-universe implications by two different writing staffs each. Afterall, if man's sapient and egoistic nature is a shackle placed upon them by Gwyn, how would one explain Manus or the Pygmie Lords or the Ringed Knights? Ultimately, I feel that many of the story elements and themes of DS2 are in conflict with the ideas of both DS1 and 3, and tends to confuse matters of lore.
Which is why I hesitate more now rather than outright denying that Hollows could be the true face of man. As for Vendrick and Aldia's portrayal of man, I don't think it's incompatible with what we find in the Ringed City. We're told the gods placed the seal of fire upon men, and that seal of fire could be responsible for giving people the impression of having a life that's attached to their vessel, but I'll go into more depth about that in another video.
I argue that the true shape of men are Dragons, Dragons (specially everlasting ones) are beings born from the abyss or the purest and most unique form of dark, tranquil, quiet, peaceful. When the first flame arose, it casted shadows and from these emerged the fleeting forms of men, touched by the fire yet made from the abyss, and thus the dark was born.
I subscribed only for the ds lore videos that i've eating this week and can't be more glad that you just dropped another one, after elden ring release, dark souls lore became so easily forgotten by the community..
I'm so glad that you're doing a more involved reading of this subject. I feel like for so many years very surface-level/naive/simplistic readings have become commonplace. greatly appreciate the effort of comparing the japanese and english dialogues. I think people have failed to draw the lines that connect metaphors of the game to reality. There's been a neglect for the humanistic reading; and not enough consideration of the framing/actions & antihumanism of those who believe the hollow is the true face of man. and the point about Yuria/Londor's attachment to life is very true -- they seek to recreate the world of the gods, merely with themselves as rulers, and with all the flaws; essentially perpetuating the firelinking cycle. doesn't necessarily make the ideas of londor entirely wrong, but they certainly aren't forthright and not nearly entirely correct. Themes likely from religion are common in Dark Souls and this is one of those very clear instances; there is complex engagement of the games and their stories with these different ideas and further exploration of them.
I think that the “true face of man” is something we have seen a number of times but have a hard time distinguishing from a normal hollow. I think it is in reference to a sentient hollow, in which case the word hollow i think is an unfit name. the idea being that rather than being a mindless undead the true man is a undead that is not effected by the curse, or does not loss its humanity and sense of self. The first example we see of it I think is the darkwraiths who in dark souls one's armor says that they may be the most human of all. they are undead and it is my belief that the darkwraiths of dark souls 3 are in fact the same knights from new londo those ages ago, their armors growth showcasing their own age. And then we have Londor that is a society of sentient hollows with then even having the problem of people wearing illusion rings and thinking they are human again. This all tells me that they are completely sentient while still being undead. But I do think that it lacking a different name other than hollow is what causes the confusion.
This does help me understand why some humans in universe would support Gwyn. If the fading of Fire and the full onset of Dark means humans no longer have individual identities, I can see why many would give anything to cling to the dying Age of Fire. In Dark Souls 1, Gwyn seems to be a tragic hero, one who was just strong enough to delay the inevitable. In Dark Souls 3, the narrative seems at first to have flipped. Fire bad, Dark good, and the game will beat you over the head with that until you agree. But if the true form of Man is to have no sense of self..... I can see why people wouldn't want to be human.
My pet theory is that the primordial serpants were some how related to the dragons, and devised a plan to make gwyn create the darksign and thus the hollowing curse. Why because the bonfire burns time itself away and hollows become trees. Ds3 looks alot like the pre fire era arch trees 1) we know the abyss was only created after manus was tortured (encouged by caithe) 2) we know the early humans safely made stuff from the power of the dark 3) in fade the fire ending the fire keeper tells you she sees the flame coming again. 4) the dark soul is used to create a gentle calm and cold olace. Cycle of dark wouldve been fine, however due to gywns and by extensions the two primodial serpants meddling it became the hellscape it is now in order break time and break back the age of the archtrees.
And then, in the DS3 fire keeper ending, we snuff out the fire and bring about the age of dark at last. The serpent bastards have (poasibly) been foiled for good.
@user-zp8kj2cl9g this ain't a research paper please feel free to correct what I got wrong. Look up Hawkeye gohs dialogue about manus. He's specifically states they drove manus mad being urged to do so by a primordial serpant
The Abyss went out of control when Manus was exhumed and tortured, not created. Since the Dark and Humanity are linked to the Abyss and Manus has a particularly powerful Dark Soul then it makes sense it went crazy. And since it's more likely everything came *from* the Abyss, it's unlikely it was created. You can't have primordial serpents that existed before Time if the Abyss wasn't also there since the serpents seem to manifest from only the Abyss. When you consider world creation myths irl that have a cosmic ocean beginning or their creator god appearing out of a Void, or Abyss, it's hard to not consider that a potential inspiration, if not the actual story, of the Dark Souls universe as well.
Loved the video! The question seems to be an existential one, maybe inspired by buddhism: Is this life, with its desires and conflicts born from disparity, the truth of man, or is he the mindless want born from the abyssal void of unconciousness that he shall return to? I guess it depends on the nature of a Dark soul, wanting and yearning for life...
I think you're overcomplicating a few things; you seem to think that Hollows and Humanities being the true face of Man is contradictory. It is not. Think on this; every Hollow, born from the Dark, contains the Dark, and holds it within them. What is the difference between a Hollow with Humanity, and a Hollow with Dark? What is Humanity? Dark ,but with eyes and form. Dark that has gained consciousness. The Dark Soul is the Dark given consciousness,contained within the Pygmy,and later, the first humans; by this token, it may be considered the first "soul". But then, what is the illusion? How do you gain human form? You burn a humanity, in exchange for warmth. For new life. The lie is simple: "Humans are alive" Humans may possess a Dark Soul, but the Dark is neither life, nor death. It possesses no vitality, and gives no warmth; all it gave them was the curse we know as " consciousness", soon lost by those who fell to despair. They fell back to what they once were; to be fully Hollow is to lose oneself, and thus, to accept Hollowing fully is to accept the cessation of the self. To return to the Dark's embrace; eyeless, formless Dark. No longer human. And so, the Lord Of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from Humanity. And Men assumed a fleeting form. These are the roots of our world. These were the wishes of the first men; to dream. To lie. To live in warmth and tranquility. Is that so wrong?
i love what you said, but y'gotta undo yourself a tad. just a wee bit. y'done opened with "why do you have to go and make things so complicated?" and then proceeded to wed our our written tongue in the most discombobulated and half-congruent marriage of man-speak I've ever done heard for why, my boy?
@@UnkleSurvivor You're right. It's pretty hypocritical of me. That said; the TLDR is: Humanities and Hollows are both part of the true shape of Man, as Hollows are born of Dark and Humanities are the Dark given cosnciousness, and the Ilusion is the form we take when burning Humanities.
Elden Ring it won't take the place of Dark Souls, dark souls is just so much better constructed lore. Familial relations at the beginning were adoptive, only when nito created mortality and souls began to circulate in cycle of reincarnation, family began to mean blood relation. So Lloyd being Gwyn's uncle is just their relation in pantheon, it refers also to Japanese tradition of adoption in adulthood, Gwyn has no father after all. I also believe that Oldest children of Gwyn do not have mothers but are hollows he gave chunks of his soul to, same with Izalith's daughter, or pygmy lords. Gwyn waa very unequal in distribution of soul of light, pygmy lords opposite with dark soul, and Izalith with soul of life in the middle, with nito i guess he also shared his soul pretty equally infecting everyone lower in hierarchy with death.
Oh, it's simpler than that. I'm surprised he didn't mention it. In Japanese, the term used for " uncle" regarding Lloyd means the younger brother of either one's own parents.. Or one's wife's parents. In other words, Lloyd could simply be Gwyn's uncle in law.
Can you do dialogue translation videos for all three games please as these clips you have show will be extremely helpful at understanding the proper context of them.
My favourite ending! Have been replaying DS3 a lot recently, and finally achieved my Platinum trophy solo. Definitely want to replay DS2 next year, as want to properly listen to Aldia talking - missed some in my first run, as Aldia bursting out of the bonfire always gave me such a blimmin' fright lol XD
Concerning Hollows, humans and hollows are seperate. As seen with Gwyn and with the Nameless King, it seems a hollow is simply a being devoid of a soul, devoid of a sense of presence abd agency in the present moment. We know that Undead that go Hollow do so becuase they lose their souls repeatedly as they die, and eventually lose their minds. Thus they are rendered shells of their former selves, however, they are not lifeless. Hollows still retain some sense of purpose, often tied to their location and occupation. Soldiers still stand guard, Knights still wear their armor and heraldry, Scholars still mill about libraries. Despite losing their minds, they still retain some semblance of identity, but instead of defining themselves by distinct memories, like names, experiences, etc., they define themselves in a much broader sense, using occupations and their surroundings. Ultimately I believe that to be Hollow is to exist in a truly selfless state, where the self is not defined by a Soul, the essence of identity, a limitless existence not defined by life or death. However, the advent of the First Flame changes this state of existence, as now selfless beings are given an identity, life, and death. These new beings, no longer hollows, identified themselves using a multitude of souls, with the three greatest becoming the first 3 Lords. Humans however did not create their identity using a random souls found within the Flame, but the Dark Soul. While each of the three Lords attracted and built up their own civilizations using their individual power, the Furtive Pygmy instead used that power to turn other Hollows into more of himself, into more humans. The unique nature of the Dark Soul allows it to propagate and divide itself infinitely while also seemingly having an infinite potential. This Soul is what defines Humanity and is the core of what given them their individual identities. Given that Humans are defined by the Dark Soul, why does Gwyn specifically fear it, and Humanity? I believe that this is due to its ability to propagate itself infinitely without losing its potency. As seen with Gwyn himself, his gifting of his power, his soul, left him weakened. While his children were born with powerful souls, they were not born with a Lord Soul. Humans are. The Dark Soul is within every human, and becuase of this it represented a significant threat to his rule, as Humanity, with a seemingly infinite potential, would outlast the First Flame and his rule. And because of this Gwyn exploits this infinite power Humanity has by shackling them to the Flame, perpetuating it ad infinitum. Taking all of this together, I do not think that a Hollow is the true form of Humanity. I believe the Hollow is the start point for much of the life that originates from the First Flame. Humans are special in that they each possess a small fragment of a lord soul, giving them the potential to rise to great power and strength, and because of this they were shackled to the First Flame by Gwyn. Due to the lies of the Gods, the Undead and the Hollow were to be feared. A Hollow is simply a being devoid of soul and identity. I believe the Darksign purposefully burns away at the soul, forcing conflict and strife to create a champion to link the fire, with those that fail being reduced to a Hollow. To be Human is to possess the Dark Soul. To be Human requires the Dark Soul, and thus requires Identity. A Hollow cannot be Human, for it lacks both of these things. I believe that Yuria mistakenly believes that Hollows are the true face of man as she sees Hollows incorrectly, all of her actions point to her viewing Undead as the true form of humanity. Ultimately I believe that the true face of Man is not a Hollow, but whatever man defines itself as. Man has agency and identity, and at the end of the day is anathema to a Hollow.
You dont even need a translation to clarify what Aldia said. The gods placed a _seal of flame_ on the ringed knights and their armaments. Thus, retroactively, you could interpret this as his meaning. Personally, I always thought he was talking about the events of the original dark souls. The dark sign itself is how Gwyn sealed away the dark, and by hollowing, it gives men fleeting forms. I have no idea why ds2 or some theorists insist on hollow being the natural state of humanity. Theyll ignore literally everything else for one line of dialogue from a guy who turned into sludge.
Hollows as the true face of man is what I reckon. It always thought less of you for thinking otherwise! For shaaaaame! Now you step closer to enlightenment.🧐
I think yuria believes that being hollows is what men should be, because thats what they once were, i think she thinks having a soul or humanity is problematic and that maybe if mankind tries, they could live without it. They didn't chose to have humanity or a soul after all. So i personally believe that she and her similars only want men to be free from anything that was forced into then and be the ones to write their own fate. Lets be honest, we never saw how does the worlds ends up looking under the "hollow empire", maybe its not that bad lol.
Truth values are written as a *ring* "〇" (true) or a *cross* "✕" (false). Truth is associated with absence (hence "man" as in "manko"), falsehood with presence.
I believe the Lord of Hollows ending is the best for mankind in general. It frees the world from the stagnant cycle of light and dark (new sun raised up in the form of eclipse, a union of opposites, not unlike light and dark; also there's no more fire to link, so.), grants ultimate power to the ruler of Man, and in my opinion, seeks to reconcile the darkness and light that dwells within the Lord of Hollows, and maybe, in all of mankind itself (You absorb darkness from Anri and Light from the lords of cinder and have an inherent link to fire yourself, being an ashen one. And who knows what this new world means for hollows. The fire within you won't fade because it's being perpetuated by your darkness while also strengthening your darkness, as Vendrick says the brighter the light the darker the shadow. So maybe you may free everyone from losing their minds in their hollow form without the suppression of their darkness?) Linking the fire doesn't work, as we've seen before, and extinguishing the fire will just bring a new and longer age of dark, in which everyone is just hollow, so doesn't feel like the best choice for mankind, either. Also, depending on your view on the matter, the extinguishing of the fire may have already happened in the dark firelink with champion gundyr and it doesn't change anything.
The whole DS2 Storyline included with Aldia reminds me alot of a current popular theory online is the idea the world we live in is fake , matrix or huge biodome both question our reality and Aldia calls Men living in Illusion ,what else has man known but himself ? Does man even know what he is ? and the true face is within the dark what is the Dark ? Doubt the B team was working off that idea back and considering this is a game , they have made the biggest cliff hanger possible as to gamble for a Sequal because you know games need to make money
'DkS1' and 'the DkS Trilogy' are two seperate products DkS1 never mentioned infinite cycles with respawning lord souls. Having 3/4 Lord souls wasn't even enough to sate the lord vessel / kiln, we were scraping the bottom of the barrel for fuel. after we kindled ourselves, that was it, no more souls, one last age of fire. this is also DkS1's core theme, "Fading Beauty" and preserving something doomed to fade. Best Souls II: 2 wills itself into existence like an absolute baller, and forever alters the timeline - which is why DkS1 and the Trilogy should be treated as two seperate products. i give DkS2 a pass because A). it's dreamlike, gives the impression that a collective dream was strong enough to influence reality a la bloodborne which is kickass, and B). it's STILL, TO THIS DATE, the only soulsborne game to give you the full moveset of left handed weapons so 🖕🥸🖕 that's why
I always thought of the Abyss and Humanity as representing the existentialist concept of "existence preceeding essence." Souls and the First Flame are essence--Artorias's soul being his essence as an honorable knight--and the "Fading of the Flame" is the slow decay of essence. No matter what Artorias did, he would eventually no longer be a knight, due to age, injury or death. Artorias "goes mad by the Abyss" because in the wake of his failure, he's no longer that perfect knight and cannot handle this loss of essence. Humans, however, have no pre-defined essence: they are Hollow. Even if they lose their souls, they can always go out and find new ones. This is why Humanity and the Age of Dark scared the be-jesus out of Gwyn. Once Gwyn and the Age of Fire were gone, humans would simply re-invent themselves and construct a new essence. We never needed him.
The "falsehood" discussed in Dark Souls 2 is the idea that Humans are dependent upon the Age of Fire for essence and thus must sacrifice themselves to perpetuate it, whereas the "true face of man" is that we have no true face. We can cast ourselves into the future and adapt to it--we can always reinvent ourselves--whereas Gwyn felt he was nothing without the power granted to him by the Age of Fire. The illusion of the Age of Fire is the idea that exteriorities define us: money, power, ability, social position, etc. However, the truth is that it is the interiorities that define us: our choices. When Vendrick tells us to "seek strength," it is the strength to define our own essences outside of the Age of Fire that he's talking about.
i knew Dark Souls II: 2 was always about smashing the neoliberal status quo and mangling the shackles of capitalism 🥳
@@UnkleSurvivor
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?!
@@CatBitchNamiit’s a joke (I think?)
Wonderful interpretation, thank you for sharing!
I think this rings true.
Hence Lapp/Patches' allegorical depiction as the "overman".
I think that in Hollows usurping the fire, it would create this interesting sense of autonomy of harmony of both fire and shadow to where instead living in absolute darkness and growing mad to eventually see the cycle repeat and a new age of fire emerging with new lords, we'd see humanity restored but in a world where darkness and fire are bound together.
A world that would maybe resemble today's, not technologically but socially
I always thought it a cool connection of Vendrick saying "Inherit Fire and harness the Dark. Such is the Calling of a true leader" since you pretty much do that as Lord of Hollows
I mean, Gwyn DID go hollow once he was left without soul by linking the First Flame; he's just a VERY powerful one. Which if anything it gives more credence to the idea that the hollow-looking "THEY" shown in the cinematic are indeed the Lordsoul bearers, or akin to them.
Even as far as DS3, The Nameless King, unambiguously the firstborn of Gwyn and therefore, a god, looks "undead".
Humans becoming "human looking" is the consequence of taking in humanity, as the "restore humanity" game function spends it.
But what is Humanity, if not a fragment of the First Flame? It's the Dark Soul after all, found within the First Flame by the furtive pigmy; not unlike the gods found their Lordsouls, maybe to the same effect- human like appearance.
Only the Lordsouls seem to give great but ultimately short lived power dependent on the First Flame itself, while the Dark Soul gives relatively small power but it grows over time AS the First Flame fades (both by multiplying itself, and by the humans' ability to absorb souls; witch the gods are never alluded to have).
I'll admit this DOES make the discussion muddled because then, "looking hollow" would be EVERYONE'S true form, not only human's.
So maybe it does refer to a middle point: not only boasting the immortality and shape of the undead (which are more universal primordial characteristics) but one that on top of that, harnesses it's control of The Dark; long maligned and banned by the gods of Anor Londo for their fear of it.
After all, if DS3 lore is to be considered, Humans gaining their dark souls didn't originally take away their immortality as it seemingly did with the gods- that was an Age of Fire development caused by Gwyn sealing the abyss within men with the Dark Sign (as explained in the Ringed Knight and Slave Knight armors- humans were immortal warriors wielding the power of the abyss from the start).
Uncle in Japanese can me a number of things depending on context. In fact it can even be used to a non-blood related male as a term of respect.
I wonder if Gwyn's seal, the Dark Sign, is why hollows are so messed up. If the curse is overflowing dark, it could be that the tension between the dark and the seal is what causes the disfunction
Would also like to say I love Vendrick's VA. Could listen to him all day.
Londor! Oh boy! Will we finally learn who Velka is? Will Aldia hop off the proverbial fence and pick a side? Will we ever get a SotEt release date?
Idk, I think Velka is done. There's nothing else to say about her, her character is pretty much well decided. They even revisited her concept with the Dusk Eyed Queen.
@@arthurdossantos6826I know, I’m being funny
@@errantvice7335 What's SotEt? Tried searching it, inadvertently went down in the Hungarian Souls playthroughs rabbit hole. Edit: aaaaaaaaand I'm dumb as a thumb, it's the Elden Ring dlc :D
@@errantvice7335i thought it was silly. goofy-funny
Aldia straddling a proverbial fence instead of my face is silly though, ain't nothin' proverbial about it
dude is literally time traveling around well beyond light & dark, in physicality, not metaphor
Seath is Velka
I think humans are closer to dragons than one might think. The Lord of Hollows ending is basically recreating the Age of Ancients: a world of grey between Light and Dark governed by immortals who would lose that immortality in the presence of a new, separate Fire. Trees and stone are two things connected to dragons and their immortality and wouldn't you know it, they're two things humans can turn into once the Curse starts to break out.
In alchemical tradition, the soul is the volatile, metaphysical characteristic of humans that determines their individual nature and the mind/spirit attach the soul to a physical body to give it physical form. Because of this, I ascribe to the idea that the four Lords were initially Hollow before the Lord Souls produced by the First Flame gave their original bodies their transformed bodies. This is why in DS3 it seems like the Hollows on the High Wall of Lothric are turning back into trees. The giant, hollowed out Archtree named "The Great Hollow" in DS further fuels my belief in this hypothesis. Then there's Gwyn in the First Kiln that turned Hollow because his Soul, his inner Fire, was fading and almost completely gone along with his individuality, both physical and metaphysical.
In regards to Allfather Lloyd: he's a construct. His coins only have value outside of Lordran since that's the only place he has authority. The reason I believe he's a construct is because of the inconsistency of the implied family line. There is zero mention of a father or mother for Gwyn so how can Lloyd be his uncle? What Lloyd probably is is a symbol of the gray Age of Ancients preceding the Age of Fire. If Gwyn's name in Welsh meaning "White" means anything, then Lloyd meaning "Gray" in Welsh is also significant. When you mix White (Light) and Black (Dark) you get Gray, a paradoxical union of opposites that is the goal of the Occult tradition irl of which Occult weapons are made in Dark Souls by ascending a mundane weapon with the Divine Ember (White) and then the Dark Ember (Black). Religions are prone to creating and appropriating symbols when they need to assert their dominance and having an Occult symbol appropriated into the dominant religion of the Way of White (Way of Gwyn) is something real world religions also do.
As for the Abyss, Humanity, and the Dark, they are one and the same. Everything came from the Abyss including the Age of Ancients. The Abyss seems to represent the paradoxical First Matter that alchemy asserts everything came from. Since the Dark Orb sorcery says that its sorcery is soul with physical mass then that's what the Dark is: Soul with Mass. Humanity is Soul with Mass. The Abyss is Soul with Mass. Fire is the Light that cut through the Dark and split everything into opposites giving everything definition therefore creating Disparity. That is why when you burn Humanity at a Bonfire you get the false form of Humans with clearly defined, individual features whereas without burned Humanity you are a Hollow.
Those are my two cents and am curious what others think.
It's implied that only humans hollow. Gwyn isn't hollow when we meet him, he's actually just dead and reanimated to defend the kiln. The Nameless King is the same
I think the question and answer both rely on a bigger question: How do we define what "Man" is? Is it our physical form? Is it our sapience and identity? Is it a prescriptive quality from some sort of progenitor form?
Further, the bigger issue to point out is how the descriptions of the nature of humanity as described by Vendrick and Aldia run completely counter to what we learn in the Ringed City DLC about the Pygmies and their civilization, and what we have is an ultimately conflicting vision of the nature of humanity and its in-universe implications by two different writing staffs each. Afterall, if man's sapient and egoistic nature is a shackle placed upon them by Gwyn, how would one explain Manus or the Pygmie Lords or the Ringed Knights?
Ultimately, I feel that many of the story elements and themes of DS2 are in conflict with the ideas of both DS1 and 3, and tends to confuse matters of lore.
Which is why I hesitate more now rather than outright denying that Hollows could be the true face of man.
As for Vendrick and Aldia's portrayal of man, I don't think it's incompatible with what we find in the Ringed City. We're told the gods placed the seal of fire upon men, and that seal of fire could be responsible for giving people the impression of having a life that's attached to their vessel, but I'll go into more depth about that in another video.
Only what Miyazaki wrote and directed is cannon. I really don't understand why people keep bringing DS2. It's only mudding the waters.
@@LastProtagonist in the words of Dracula in Symphony of the Night "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!"
th-cam.com/video/aVLqfj6_AOw/w-d-xo.html@@Ron322
@@user-zp8kj2cl9g
Cool, then why does DS3 have so many references to Dark Souls 2?
god i love your vendrick reading. 6:40 is my wake-up alarm now ♡
You're another fool then? Or perhaps...
I argue that the true shape of men are Dragons, Dragons (specially everlasting ones) are beings born from the abyss or the purest and most unique form of dark, tranquil, quiet, peaceful. When the first flame arose, it casted shadows and from these emerged the fleeting forms of men, touched by the fire yet made from the abyss, and thus the dark was born.
I subscribed only for the ds lore videos that i've eating this week and can't be more glad that you just dropped another one, after elden ring release, dark souls lore became so easily forgotten by the community..
I'm so glad that you're doing a more involved reading of this subject. I feel like for so many years very surface-level/naive/simplistic readings have become commonplace. greatly appreciate the effort of comparing the japanese and english dialogues. I think people have failed to draw the lines that connect metaphors of the game to reality. There's been a neglect for the humanistic reading; and not enough consideration of the framing/actions & antihumanism of those who believe the hollow is the true face of man. and the point about Yuria/Londor's attachment to life is very true -- they seek to recreate the world of the gods, merely with themselves as rulers, and with all the flaws; essentially perpetuating the firelinking cycle. doesn't necessarily make the ideas of londor entirely wrong, but they certainly aren't forthright and not nearly entirely correct. Themes likely from religion are common in Dark Souls and this is one of those very clear instances; there is complex engagement of the games and their stories with these different ideas and further exploration of them.
My binge watching of FromSoft Lore has finally brought me to the one they all speak of.
yesss perfect timing been replaying ds3 like crazyy
I think that the “true face of man” is something we have seen a number of times but have a hard time distinguishing from a normal hollow. I think it is in reference to a sentient hollow, in which case the word hollow i think is an unfit name. the idea being that rather than being a mindless undead the true man is a undead that is not effected by the curse, or does not loss its humanity and sense of self.
The first example we see of it I think is the darkwraiths who in dark souls one's armor says that they may be the most human of all. they are undead and it is my belief that the darkwraiths of dark souls 3 are in fact the same knights from new londo those ages ago, their armors growth showcasing their own age.
And then we have Londor that is a society of sentient hollows with then even having the problem of people wearing illusion rings and thinking they are human again. This all tells me that they are completely sentient while still being undead. But I do think that it lacking a different name other than hollow is what causes the confusion.
This does help me understand why some humans in universe would support Gwyn. If the fading of Fire and the full onset of Dark means humans no longer have individual identities, I can see why many would give anything to cling to the dying Age of Fire. In Dark Souls 1, Gwyn seems to be a tragic hero, one who was just strong enough to delay the inevitable. In Dark Souls 3, the narrative seems at first to have flipped. Fire bad, Dark good, and the game will beat you over the head with that until you agree. But if the true form of Man is to have no sense of self..... I can see why people wouldn't want to be human.
My pet theory is that the primordial serpants were some how related to the dragons, and devised a plan to make gwyn create the darksign and thus the hollowing curse. Why because the bonfire burns time itself away and hollows become trees. Ds3 looks alot like the pre fire era arch trees
1) we know the abyss was only created after manus was tortured (encouged by caithe)
2) we know the early humans safely made stuff from the power of the dark
3) in fade the fire ending the fire keeper tells you she sees the flame coming again.
4) the dark soul is used to create a gentle calm and cold olace.
Cycle of dark wouldve been fine, however due to gywns and by extensions the two primodial serpants meddling it became the hellscape it is now in order break time and break back the age of the archtrees.
And then, in the DS3 fire keeper ending, we snuff out the fire and bring about the age of dark at last. The serpent bastards have (poasibly) been foiled for good.
Your first point is wrong
I think they're just humanity dragons. Hence they have human faces.
@user-zp8kj2cl9g this ain't a research paper please feel free to correct what I got wrong. Look up Hawkeye gohs dialogue about manus.
He's specifically states they drove manus mad being urged to do so by a primordial serpant
The Abyss went out of control when Manus was exhumed and tortured, not created. Since the Dark and Humanity are linked to the Abyss and Manus has a particularly powerful Dark Soul then it makes sense it went crazy. And since it's more likely everything came *from* the Abyss, it's unlikely it was created. You can't have primordial serpents that existed before Time if the Abyss wasn't also there since the serpents seem to manifest from only the Abyss. When you consider world creation myths irl that have a cosmic ocean beginning or their creator god appearing out of a Void, or Abyss, it's hard to not consider that a potential inspiration, if not the actual story, of the Dark Souls universe as well.
Loved the video! The question seems to be an existential one, maybe inspired by buddhism: Is this life, with its desires and conflicts born from disparity, the truth of man, or is he the mindless want born from the abyssal void of unconciousness that he shall return to?
I guess it depends on the nature of a Dark soul, wanting and yearning for life...
omgg the aldia bits !
Oh snap!
I think you're overcomplicating a few things; you seem to think that Hollows and Humanities being the true face of Man is contradictory.
It is not.
Think on this; every Hollow, born from the Dark, contains the Dark, and holds it within them. What is the difference between a Hollow with Humanity, and a Hollow with Dark?
What is Humanity?
Dark ,but with eyes and form. Dark that has gained consciousness.
The Dark Soul is the Dark given consciousness,contained within the Pygmy,and later, the first humans; by this token, it may be considered the first "soul".
But then, what is the illusion?
How do you gain human form?
You burn a humanity, in exchange for warmth. For new life.
The lie is simple:
"Humans are alive"
Humans may possess a Dark Soul, but the Dark is neither life, nor death. It possesses no vitality, and gives no warmth; all it gave them was the curse we know as " consciousness", soon lost by those who fell to despair. They fell back to what they once were; to be fully Hollow is to lose oneself, and thus, to accept Hollowing fully is to accept the cessation of the self. To return to the Dark's embrace; eyeless, formless Dark.
No longer human.
And so, the Lord Of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from Humanity. And Men assumed a fleeting form.
These are the roots of our world.
These were the wishes of the first men; to dream. To lie. To live in warmth and tranquility.
Is that so wrong?
i love what you said, but y'gotta undo yourself a tad. just a wee bit.
y'done opened with "why do you have to go and make things so complicated?" and then proceeded to wed our our written tongue in the most discombobulated and half-congruent marriage of man-speak I've ever done heard
for why, my boy?
@@UnkleSurvivor You're right. It's pretty hypocritical of me. That said; the TLDR is:
Humanities and Hollows are both part of the true shape of Man, as Hollows are born of Dark and Humanities are the Dark given cosnciousness, and the Ilusion is the form we take when burning Humanities.
Elden Ring it won't take the place of Dark Souls, dark souls is just so much better constructed lore.
Familial relations at the beginning were adoptive, only when nito created mortality and souls began to circulate in cycle of reincarnation, family began to mean blood relation.
So Lloyd being Gwyn's uncle is just their relation in pantheon, it refers also to Japanese tradition of adoption in adulthood, Gwyn has no father after all.
I also believe that Oldest children of Gwyn do not have mothers but are hollows he gave chunks of his soul to, same with Izalith's daughter, or pygmy lords. Gwyn waa very unequal in distribution of soul of light, pygmy lords opposite with dark soul, and Izalith with soul of life in the middle, with nito i guess he also shared his soul pretty equally infecting everyone lower in hierarchy with death.
I finished DS3 fornthe first time yesterday with the Hollow Ending.... This video feels made for me
Gwyn is hollow when we find him. And there are some in the game who think Lloyd made up his position, meaning Gwyn doesn't necessarily have an uncle.
Oh, it's simpler than that. I'm surprised he didn't mention it.
In Japanese, the term used for " uncle" regarding Lloyd means the younger brother of either one's own parents..
Or one's wife's parents.
In other words, Lloyd could simply be Gwyn's uncle in law.
@alyseleem2692 This agrees with my own interpretation but what is your Source?
@@specialnewb9821 Channel Yoshimitsu. Look him up.
Can you do dialogue translation videos for all three games please as these clips you have show will be extremely helpful at understanding the proper context of them.
My favourite ending! Have been replaying DS3 a lot recently, and finally achieved my Platinum trophy solo. Definitely want to replay DS2 next year, as want to properly listen to Aldia talking - missed some in my first run, as Aldia bursting out of the bonfire always gave me such a blimmin' fright lol XD
Thanks for making DS content in 2023 ✅✅
Concerning Hollows, humans and hollows are seperate. As seen with Gwyn and with the Nameless King, it seems a hollow is simply a being devoid of a soul, devoid of a sense of presence abd agency in the present moment. We know that Undead that go Hollow do so becuase they lose their souls repeatedly as they die, and eventually lose their minds. Thus they are rendered shells of their former selves, however, they are not lifeless. Hollows still retain some sense of purpose, often tied to their location and occupation. Soldiers still stand guard, Knights still wear their armor and heraldry, Scholars still mill about libraries. Despite losing their minds, they still retain some semblance of identity, but instead of defining themselves by distinct memories, like names, experiences, etc., they define themselves in a much broader sense, using occupations and their surroundings.
Ultimately I believe that to be Hollow is to exist in a truly selfless state, where the self is not defined by a Soul, the essence of identity, a limitless existence not defined by life or death. However, the advent of the First Flame changes this state of existence, as now selfless beings are given an identity, life, and death.
These new beings, no longer hollows, identified themselves using a multitude of souls, with the three greatest becoming the first 3 Lords. Humans however did not create their identity using a random souls found within the Flame, but the Dark Soul. While each of the three Lords attracted and built up their own civilizations using their individual power, the Furtive Pygmy instead used that power to turn other Hollows into more of himself, into more humans. The unique nature of the Dark Soul allows it to propagate and divide itself infinitely while also seemingly having an infinite potential. This Soul is what defines Humanity and is the core of what given them their individual identities.
Given that Humans are defined by the Dark Soul, why does Gwyn specifically fear it, and Humanity? I believe that this is due to its ability to propagate itself infinitely without losing its potency. As seen with Gwyn himself, his gifting of his power, his soul, left him weakened. While his children were born with powerful souls, they were not born with a Lord Soul. Humans are. The Dark Soul is within every human, and becuase of this it represented a significant threat to his rule, as Humanity, with a seemingly infinite potential, would outlast the First Flame and his rule. And because of this Gwyn exploits this infinite power Humanity has by shackling them to the Flame, perpetuating it ad infinitum.
Taking all of this together, I do not think that a Hollow is the true form of Humanity. I believe the Hollow is the start point for much of the life that originates from the First Flame. Humans are special in that they each possess a small fragment of a lord soul, giving them the potential to rise to great power and strength, and because of this they were shackled to the First Flame by Gwyn. Due to the lies of the Gods, the Undead and the Hollow were to be feared. A Hollow is simply a being devoid of soul and identity. I believe the Darksign purposefully burns away at the soul, forcing conflict and strife to create a champion to link the fire, with those that fail being reduced to a Hollow. To be Human is to possess the Dark Soul. To be Human requires the Dark Soul, and thus requires Identity. A Hollow cannot be Human, for it lacks both of these things. I believe that Yuria mistakenly believes that Hollows are the true face of man as she sees Hollows incorrectly, all of her actions point to her viewing Undead as the true form of humanity. Ultimately I believe that the true face of Man is not a Hollow, but whatever man defines itself as. Man has agency and identity, and at the end of the day is anathema to a Hollow.
You dont even need a translation to clarify what Aldia said. The gods placed a _seal of flame_ on the ringed knights and their armaments. Thus, retroactively, you could interpret this as his meaning.
Personally, I always thought he was talking about the events of the original dark souls. The dark sign itself is how Gwyn sealed away the dark, and by hollowing, it gives men fleeting forms.
I have no idea why ds2 or some theorists insist on hollow being the natural state of humanity. Theyll ignore literally everything else for one line of dialogue from a guy who turned into sludge.
I want elden Souls4 to let us play as an Albaunauric giant
Hollows as the true face of man is what I reckon. It always thought less of you for thinking otherwise! For shaaaaame! Now you step closer to enlightenment.🧐
It’s me actually, I’m the Man.
Uh. Sorry.
I think yuria believes that being hollows is what men should be, because thats what they once were, i think she thinks having a soul or humanity is problematic and that maybe if mankind tries, they could live without it.
They didn't chose to have humanity or a soul after all.
So i personally believe that she and her similars only want men to be free from anything that was forced into then and be the ones to write their own fate.
Lets be honest, we never saw how does the worlds ends up looking under the "hollow empire", maybe its not that bad lol.
Haven't watched yet, but I want to say that opening scene depicts "the desert of the real".
Truth values are written as a *ring* "〇" (true) or a *cross* "✕" (false).
Truth is associated with absence (hence "man" as in "manko"), falsehood with presence.
Hell yeah
I believe the Lord of Hollows ending is the best for mankind in general. It frees the world from the stagnant cycle of light and dark (new sun raised up in the form of eclipse, a union of opposites, not unlike light and dark; also there's no more fire to link, so.), grants ultimate power to the ruler of Man, and in my opinion, seeks to reconcile the darkness and light that dwells within the Lord of Hollows, and maybe, in all of mankind itself (You absorb darkness from Anri and Light from the lords of cinder and have an inherent link to fire yourself, being an ashen one. And who knows what this new world means for hollows. The fire within you won't fade because it's being perpetuated by your darkness while also strengthening your darkness, as Vendrick says the brighter the light the darker the shadow. So maybe you may free everyone from losing their minds in their hollow form without the suppression of their darkness?)
Linking the fire doesn't work, as we've seen before, and extinguishing the fire will just bring a new and longer age of dark, in which everyone is just hollow, so doesn't feel like the best choice for mankind, either. Also, depending on your view on the matter, the extinguishing of the fire may have already happened in the dark firelink with champion gundyr and it doesn't change anything.
Dark Soooolz 2 🎉
Only what Miyazaki wrote and directed is cannon. I really don't understand why people keep bringing DS2. It's only mudding the waters.
The whole DS2 Storyline included with Aldia reminds me alot of a current popular theory online is the idea the world we live in is fake , matrix or huge biodome both question our reality and Aldia calls Men living in Illusion ,what else has man known but himself ? Does man even know what he is ? and the true face is within the dark what is the Dark ?
Doubt the B team was working off that idea back and considering this is a game , they have made the biggest cliff hanger possible as to gamble for a Sequal because you know games need to make money
'DkS1' and 'the DkS Trilogy' are two seperate products
DkS1 never mentioned infinite cycles with respawning lord souls. Having 3/4 Lord souls wasn't even enough to sate the lord vessel / kiln, we were scraping the bottom of the barrel for fuel. after we kindled ourselves, that was it, no more souls, one last age of fire. this is also DkS1's core theme, "Fading Beauty" and preserving something doomed to fade.
Best Souls II: 2 wills itself into existence like an absolute baller, and forever alters the timeline - which is why DkS1 and the Trilogy should be treated as two seperate products.
i give DkS2 a pass because A). it's dreamlike, gives the impression that a collective dream was strong enough to influence reality a la bloodborne which is kickass, and B). it's STILL, TO THIS DATE, the only soulsborne game to give you the full moveset of left handed weapons
so 🖕🥸🖕 that's why
Fear the old slay