I always assumed that the original sin was Gwyn trying to suppress the darkness in humanity with the Seal of Fire, leading to the creation of the Darksign, the Undead Curse, and the Abyss.
@@Mrcrazy80 The Abyss in DS1 spawned also from Manus' emotions going out of control. Similarly, the Four Kings being corrupted spawned the Abyss in New Londo.
The abyss always existed since fire began. The ringed knight's armaments were born from it before having the seal of fire placed on them. The abyss can be ripped open in some places like with manus.
I still think the First Sin is Gwyn's initial linking, and the burden he placed on Humans and the world with it. He started this constant recycling of souls and life preventing the world from going on as, let's say, nature intended through different "ages." He was also bound by emotion, and throughout the games we learn that this emotion was primarily fear. Izalith may have committed her own sin with the corruption of the flame of Life and the birth of Chaos, but I think the burden of Gwyn's sin, and the Witch's own ambitions are the motivating factors. She too was fond of the Age of Fire, and she had to gain by recreating the First Flame. It all comes from Gwyn.
I can't read Japanese, but your conclusions largely match my own just from playing the games and reading some of the interviews. I think the Abyss, and the Dark more generally, manifest as desire and passion when they come into contact with life. The darkness in man is why they're considered particularly driven by desire, and it's a double-edged sword in that it provides them purpose, which can serve as a tether for them to linger in the world and maintain some semblance of consciousness, but it also makes them susceptible to being corrupted by their yearning. That's why humanity eats away at fire keepers, why the Profaned Flame devoured most of the inhabitants of the capital, why miracles and spells rooted in humanity and darkness pursue their target, why one of the primary themes of the games is seeking out more souls and, with it, more strength, etc. It also ties in with the Buddhist connections in these games. Ego and desire are profoundly linked and they bind people to karma and reincarnation. The Undead seem to have a connection to that concept, some of them are able to maintain a sense of self if they have a purpose or they prey upon the humanity of others, while those who don't have a sense of purpose any more just become mindlessly hungry like classic zombies. I don't think it's a coincidence, for example, that the Crestfallen Warrior becomes a Hollow once he no longer has a role as a guide to the Chosen Undead, once Frampt takes over that role he finally is robbed of his sense of self. But of course, the Gods started as Hollows too, and flame is often described as hungry or thirsty as well. So maybe the Gods and similar beings are more ruled by their desires than they'd care to admit, and there's less of a difference between them and humans than they'd like to believe. After all, they were so attached to the world as it was they used most of it as kindling for the First Flame. Even Nito tries to take hold of more of the world for himself.
I like some of the translations you made in regards to Shanalotte's line and Aged Feather, as well as the points on the other curses in regards to Aldia experiments. As you know I dove into this subject, and while I agree with most of the points made in this video, I think some evidences could be added to make your points even stronger. “The keyword that came to mind was “deep curse." I wasn’t thinking about the curse that turns characters into hollows, but instead of the karma they convey with them.” - Tanimura in Famitsu Design Works interview. I confirmed with Claude that for the most part (some exceptions still), "karma" and "fate" are used interchangeably in the text, meaning the mention of "karma" in Agdayne's Kilt desc, where it is stated to be synonymous with life and suffering, is the same word used for "fate" in Aldia and Shanalotte's dialogues, where they talk about overcoming it. I think this further hints that karma/fate/life/yearning was the Original Sin, especially since in the aforementioned interview Tanimura outright says that the karma/fate conveyed by the character is synonymous with the deep curse that was the keyword behind DS2 entirely. Besides, I think it would be very fitting and logical for "Scholar of the First Sin" to end up being part of the game's title if it's directly related to the main idea behind the game as a whole. I think categorizing sin as an expression of desire is appropriate. In this regard, it's important to note how dark is stated by the DS1 intro and Grandhal to be the mother of all things that lived, since as you noted dark is strongly associated with desire, true essence of life as told by the Ancient Dragon (who happens to be a creation of Aldia) and Miyazaki in DS1 design works interview. Specifically, humans are known to be the most greedy people, probably owning to their dark soul, going by what Patches in TRC, Ciaran, Shira, and the Rat King say. You also noted how Wrathful Axe desc talks about the children of dark who took form in a way that hints about humans true nature, which as told by Vendrick and Yuria is their hollow form, where their thirst for soul/life/power is the most apparent, a trait that is very obvious in the children of dark as well. Most of this is stuff you pointed out in your previous videos but I think they are very relevant in an analysis of sin as well. Main reason to bring humans/hollow in particular in the analysis is because according to Oswald, "it is only human to commit a sin". Your translation of Karla's dialogue further confirms this, since according to you she says that "she's a sinner, since she's a wretched child of the abyss of man". Mechanically, it is relevant to consider that according to DS1 Red Eye Orb, the invading Darkwraiths steal humanity "and plunge further into dark. Perhaps they are more human thatn we ?", and a successful invasion results ina PVP sin. On the other hand, the DS1 Red Sign Soapstone reads that "some darkwraiths resist their descent into dark" by conserving the path of honor, and summoned darkwraiths do not commit a sin by killing the host. Imo, you can safely conclude that sinning makes you more human and leads you to descend into dark, particularily present in human. This makes sense too in the case of the Profaned Flame/Flame of Sin, since it has "consumed naught but human flesh" and is abyssal in nature according to Andre 5profaned Coal also unlocks the Dark and Hollow infusion). Finally, something that confirms the link between sin and the Undead Curse is an obscure DS2 mechanic: according to wikidot, if you sin enough and gets the title of "Wretch", the reduction upon hollowing of your max HP bar is no longer capped at the usual 50% but at something like 5%. In other words, you can become more hollow by sinning enough, and since hollow is stated to be the true face of humans, known for their dark and yearning nature... There are more things that could be added (for instance, dragons being not alive according to Miyazaki and the games text as well the fact that people like Aldia and the Drakeblood Knight take interest in dragons because they live on a less shitty plane of existence), but I think these are the main things I wanted to add to reinforce the ideas.
DS2 and 3 do make multiple mentions of Want. Vendricks's Shield in DS3, the Shield of Want, and the Ancient Dragon's dialogue about how the curse of life is the curse of want do back up the notion that sin is motivated by desire. But Sin mechanically gets confusing because you can be committing a sin in the eyes of the Darkmoon and the Way of White as a religion, but the gravity and nature of it are, to me, different from the sins commited by Gwyn and Izalith. Gwyn and her were both motivated by fear and other emotions to go through the Linking and the tampering of the Flame of Life to recreate the First Flame.
Oh. I think I got it. Prayers, wishes, curses - they're all the same thing. They're all what someone vehemently desires. When you curse someone, you pour your feelings into them - your hatred, your malice, your grudge - essentially praying for harm to come to them. And the curse of life is the curse of want. It's like how the intensity of an onryou's feelings weigh it down to the living world so that it can act in accordance with its regrets and desire for vengeance. Their entire existence is consumed by that desire, but it's the thing that allows them to go beyond death. Just like the Undead need a purpose to retain any semblance of individuality and selfhood. Once they give up or have their desires fulfilled, they lose their grip on themselves and go Hollow even if they never die.
Yes, pyromancy and miracles are all based in desire, which is why all of the Hexes (due to their proximity to Dark) are heavily related to more animalistic human emotions.
I love how you hesitate to bring up Velka, since every other TH-cam lore video tries to make everything about Velka an every character an avatar of Velka 😂
I do not think that the first sin is Gwyn linking the First Flame necessarily, but rather binding humanity to it. Due to the various item descriptions from the Ringed City dlc it appears that humanity and anything forged in the Abyss was branded with a ring of fire. Additionally, humanity were the footsoldiers of the gods during the war with the Everlasting Dragons, so presumably they were bound to fire before the First Flame began to fade. I am sure to be missing something, however, but I am curious about your thoughts on the matter.
I agree. I always through that Gwyn, scared always and already about forecoming Age of Dark, saw humanity as a carriers of Dark Soul, saw humanity multiply, and thought 'Hey, instead of burning something valuable in First Kiln, I will link that scary/disgusted Dark Soul fragments to bonfires so those rapidly multiplying humans will power my Age of Light. Free fuel forever!' It didn't work this way, so at the end Gwyn had to link himself to fire as well.
I dunno. I've been thinking that the Pygmy(ies) made a deal with Gwyn. He would leave them alone to remain amongst each other undisturbed at the Ringed City, while they would provide a number of Slave Knights who were undying to be cannon fodder for Gwyn's assault on the dragons. The Pygmies needed a guarantee that Gwyn would stick to the deal, so he left Filianore with them. She would also carry an illusion of paradise so that the pygmies would be eternally blissful and unaware when their world crumbled over time (since they're undead/immortal). I also believe, without evidence, that the egg Filianore held may not have contained a dragon as most people speculate, but rather a/the Dark Soul itself. Look again at it, close up. It looks like a dark crystal, similar to that on Midir's body. I have other thoughts but it's difficult to piece it all together right now
@@herrzyklon The Gwyn statue in the Ringed City suggests a pose of subservience for the pygmies. Given that everything related to Gwyn is some kind of lie or deception, I don't think it makes sense to interpret the relationship between the two factions as being on anything like even footing, certainly not to the degree that Gwyn would feel compelled to leave his daughter there for eternity. I think it's more reasonable to assume that whatever reasons Gwyn might have given the pygmies for doing what he was doing were lies and shouldn't be taken at face value even when they aren't outright falsehoods. The illusion of Filianore isn't the Ringed City. The city is sinking down into ruin along with everything else after all, not much of an illusion. The illusion of Filianore is related to time and may even be an illusion of time itself. I think the only time we ever see the present in DS is in the Gael arena. Everything else is "in the past" but in the sense that the past is a fabrication created by the linking of the fire and the dreaming of Filianore.
I agree with your interpretation of the first sin being the binding of humanity to the cycle of fire linking. I think, however, that this is why your second idea is incorrect. I don't think the process of fire linking started until after the dragons were defeated. Gwyn used the power of the first flame to help destroy the dragons and build a world centered around his own power. There was no reason for the linking process to exist at all until the first flame began to fade, as linking the fire is the solution to the problem of the first flame fading.
Rainbow Krampus i did not say they were bound by the linking of the fire, but were instead bound and branded by it. Humanity were enslaved by the gods, even the weapons and armor they made in the Abyss were branded to keep the darkness within at bay. The First Sin, as i should have clarifies, was the gods binding humanities darkness with fire; the Dark Sign, if you will.
I always thought the first sin was Geyn putting the darksign on humans, since that basically led them to an eternity of trying to link the flame and suffering along the way. Unless someone were to break the curse, humans would pretty much be doomed forever. The humans still try to link the flame to the point where in Ds3, even though people can see the world is crumbling because they keep linking the flame, they still try to do it.
I think the connections you've found between emotions, desire, life, death, and the curse are really compelling. I'm not as familiar with the Dark Souls trilogy's lore or themes as I am with Bloodborne's, but as I understand it these ideas would also tie in well with some of the central questions the Dark Souls games ask, especially regarding linking the fire. Furthermore, as someone who's always interested in the topic of translation, I found the whole section on the Pursuer fascinating. The potential double-meaning of one who binds others with a curse while also being bound by one is great. Furthermore, it strikes me that the line quoted at 12:01 could be employing another set of double-meanings with "命", since that kanji can refer to orders, life, or fate. In other words, this could potentially be a way of saying both "the Curse-binder was given orders to hunt those who possess the sign," or "the Curse-bound was granted the fate of hunting those who possess the sign." You've got more context than me here, so maybe that's not right, but I think it's an interesting alternative consideration. Finally, just as a brief note, I like your potential re-interpretation of 空より生じ as "born from thin air". As you say, it preserves some ambiguity, and it sounds natural as well. Thanks for the thoughtful video!
Glad you brought up 命. When I was looking over it, I did wonder if it was supposed to be meant in the sense of "fate," but I felt like it might have been stretching it a bit too much without more context to read it that way. Thanks for the comment.
@@LastProtagonist Thanks for the reply! I agree it seems like a stretch, but since it meshes well with the potential double-meaning of "呪縛者," I wanted to mention it. It's nice to hear it was a possibility you considered as well!
I know I'm just one dude but god damn man you make some of the most interesting and in-depth vids of the lore of the games that I love the most. I sincerely hope you get some more subs asap cause holy shit I've been watching your content for a LONG time now, over a year, and even going back and watching your live stuff I learned a bunch of shit I didn't know and was curious about. I feel like that is something that is very much missing with the mainstream content like VaatiVidya content. I actually prefer this over Vaati's content any day. The specifics are so fucking appreciated especially when it comes to English vs Japanese stuff, man I love that!! Also tackling even the SUPER ambiguous stuff in Japanese and English is super appreciated!
It makes sense that living and the drive/desire to live would be the first sin. That also plays into the Throne of Want. Interesting stuff, I had always thought the first sin was the linking of the first flame which spurred on this groundhogs day of events relating to life and curses to keep happening.
I feel the same, pretty much. Makes more sense that the Japanese resembles “original sin” more, too. Gwyn’s inability to allow his age of fire to end, for nature to takes its course, could represent the human tendency to hold onto things past the point of what’s good for us, and the weakness therein. That would be the first sin for me 🤔
Yeah, something was always stinking a bit in theory that the "first" sin was Gwyn linking the flame. Not only it doesn't make sense to call it any "missuse", as fires always burn on something, so the First Flame always had fuel and Gwyn just added more of it. Disparity also came when the First Flame arrived. With that said, I'd bet that the original sin came together with that Disparity. This is when life and death appeared, and the original sin is linked to said life. I'd support your thesis that the sin is holding into the life, it goes well in line with the motive of "letting things go". Original sin in christianity is something everybody has, and everything that's alive truly wants to live. Even procreation serves that purpose, we pass on our genes, which are kind of "bricks" living things (including human) are built off, so we let a physical part of ourselves live beyond death in our offspring.
I never took the Elenora description to mean the monsteocities of sin but rather the women tending to the flame that shoot fire balls from the kiln of sin TM - as in they, just like the izalith witch, messed with the flame or created it, which then exploded and created a bed for monstrocities. Chaos flame making demons and sin flame making the monstrosities of sin. Where in izalith there's culture and the witches even tried to ease the suffering of ceaseless, the women of the profaned capital couldn't care less about the suffering they caused with their flame, because they delight in that very suffering.
Ok I have too much to say in one comment, so I picked this: My hyperfixation for the the games and their lore and themes keeps on going. I'm absorbed by meditations on life and emotions this channel has discovered and put up on display (thanks btw \ITI/ ). To think a couple video games would enrich my inner life in such a way. Sorry for being dramatic. It's just a silly obsession.
The thing that really interests me is the profaned flame/ flame of sin. Essentially I see what makes the profaned flame well profaned/ a sin is that it isn't Gwyn's flame. It is blasphemous and sort of like an alternative to the Yuria ending- it's taking power from the Gods. In order for the Gods to have power the first flame must be "linked" / fueled by powerful souls to prevent it's fading/ going out. The chaos flame also provided power but as seen in ds3 it too faded and it's power left. The profaned/ sin flame is said to never go out and based on what I've said so far, I think it's safe to say the flames themselves are analogs to the souls found in the ds1 cinematic. Gwyn found the first flame. Quelanna found the chaos flame, and the profaned flame I think must be what the pygmy found, a dark soul flame. It allows for the tie in to the ringed city and gwyn fearing the latent power of the dark soul and sealing it behind the ring brand. It allows for the flame to be both of sin and fueled by sin including why it burned naught but human flesh. It explains why linking the first flame (as yohrm said he would) would combat the profaned flame- because it would be giving power to the god's to combat those who use the profaned flame's power just like what the ringed city shows. ---- So i think what happened was the main character of the story is pontif sulyvahn who is born in the painted world of ariendel. It's presumed his mother was one of the flame trees due to some cut content dialogue from the one guarding snap freeze before the ladder drops as well as sully's root covered face And tree wings that burst out of his back but I don't think that matters beyond a nice little easter egg that fire is a very part of his being. Who else has set up a church here but a lady of londor herself, sister to yuria and servant of dark stalker kaathe. With those kinds of influences it's no wonder that the pontif is a secret whisperer against linking the flame So perhaps on a hint from kaathe and co where to find the profaned capital sully went there and He discovered a flame that never faded and could challenge the power of the gods and could grant himself a kingdom. I'm not sure how he would have gotten in with the lotheric family - perhaps other lore sheds light on that- but once in he began whispering in lotheric's ear not to link the flame but to let it wither and fade because then - the dark prince himself , sullyvahn, could wrestle the flame from its mantle utilizing the profaned flame in its place. In order to do this he had to remove the influences of the old gods such as gwyndolin (fed to aldrich) and who's presumably gwynevere but called rosaria (imprisoned in the cathedral of the deep) It seems aldritch saw the deep sea end or was told it by sully and thought that a way towards that was the profaned flame and decided a partnership was in order. Aldritch gets to eat and sully becomes pontiff and takes over the role of religious leadership ala pontif. A pontif is one who's comuning with the higher powers directly and disseminating that info like a prophet but one institutionalized in a governmental role- its why yorshka says he falsely proclaimed himself pontif as how could there be one when the gods (or at least gwyndolin) are right there in the city - however if gwyndolin was still living in secret with the illusion of gwynovere it would make sense why the pontif was able to fool everyone- for there were no god's left to challenge his words particularly once gwyndolin and yorshka were imprisoned. However why can sulyvahn and the witches of irathyl use the profaned flame if it's a flame of humans? Is it the same way that we kill gods and use their souls to ignite the first flame with no benefit to us besides the release of death? Perhaps the pontif could use the flame but never actually become a dark lord of hollows like a human can- which is why the pilgrims and londor church still whisper in the ears of many such as the player and anri. If we see how both yoel and anri's pilgrims are presumably killed by yuria - the hollows of londor have no attachments to those they work with. By the time we "marry" anri and kill pontif it's clear we're front runner so that's what we get supported where as curing the dark sigil or messing with anri's pilgrim prematurely will turn them against us and the pale shade hunts us down as a fire linking threat. (Sorry for the ramble, stoned and first draft lore ranting 🤣)
I've thought a bit about what the First Sin could have been, and as weird as it might sound, I think it may have been the Advent of Fire and the harnessing of the Lord Souls. Until the Advent of Fire there was no such thing as Disparity, no life or death. If life is related to sin, I find it hard to believe that the creation of life isn't also the creation of sin. Gwyn's fear of the Dark and sins of shackling Humanity and relinking the fire, thereby perpetuating the existence of both life and sin, never would have occurred had the Flame itself not created the concept of sin by being the First Sin. Likewise, the Witch's sin of creating the Chaos Flame and whatever corrupted form of life the Demons are never would have happened without a First Sin. Anyway, that's just my headcanon. I love the lore of Dark Souls, and it's quite fun to learn the differences between the original Japanese and the English translation.
You mention that there's no evidence that Velka has anything to the Profaned Capital/Capital of Sin, but there is to a degree that I've never seen anyone mention before and that's the gargoyles. They are always in the vicinity of her influence such as Oswald of Carim, the Painting, Profaned Capital and the Lost Bastille area. The only thing I'm not completely sure on is whether the gargoyles are aligned or against Velka. Either way the locations of the gargoyles do not come across as a coincidence.
I want to offer a small point. We know that the profaned flame existed during yhorm's time and that he became a lord of cinder in order to put it to rest. Knowing this, the fire mentioned in the profane flame pyromancy does not refer to the profane flame itself, but the first flame claiming yhorm's human subjects as kindling after his attempt to link the flame. This gives further credence to the theory that the first flame uses exclusively humans as kindling, since yhorm was a giant he was unfit. What I'm leaning towards is that the monstrosities of sin attempted to recreate the first flame, but instead of using the whole of the soul of life like the witch of izalith did which lead to chaos spawning new life, they used fragments of the dark soul, hence why some characters can see the abyss in it and why it can inspire in people emotions associated with the dark.
According to Aldia. The question remains in which place was that logic broken. Gwyn didn't light the Firt Flame, only prolonged it. It still faded away, as it doesn't burn any longer where the first Lords have aquired their souls. We fight Midir in there.
Dear Last Protagonist, if life is just suffering, and to continue living is suffering, then tell me why shouldn't I just give in and fucking kill myself ASAP? Are you saying that these games are inherently nihilistic and anti-life or something like that? It sure sounds like that, with the way you're explaining them.
Just because there's suffering, that doesn't mean life isn't worth living. The games show it's human nature to pursue their target, no matter how trite or tragic the ending may be. So be free to pursue life, but don't hold onto it so tightly that it causes more pain and suffering for others. In Buddhism for example, the way to rise above suffering is through detachment, not severance. It's analogous to the way men who follow the path of the dragon via meditation leave the "cycle" by letting go of their desires and their "darkness."
@@LastProtagonist@kaspersaldell I have seen this exchange echoed across many videos on DS. The question it addresses is at the heart of all things. As in those conversations, I feel something is missing in your response. I don’t feel it goes to the root of OP’s question. It does not speak of metaphysics, which must be considered in a discussion of ultimate questions. Let us consider the point made about life still having meaning. Despite the existence of suffering, so long as it is pursued without holding on too tightly, or by hurting others. If we consider the Lore of Dark Souls, there is ultimately nothing worth pursuing, because Worth as such, just as Life, is of Disparity, identified with Flame, and equivalent with Sin, Falsehood, Ignorance, and Suffering. Harming others holds no meaning (within DS) because others, just as yourself, are ultimately equally worthless. All of you, all of what makes you you, is from the Flame, where wandering hollow-like creatures seen in the intro to DS1 found souls and became recognizable things with identities. Even the Everlasting Dragons were changed by the Flame, though they existed before it, hence how they were able to be fought against and possessed souls. The nature of man in the context of the Flame, which is equivalent with Disparity, is Want/Desire. As the Ancient Dragon in DS2 says, the Curse of Life is the Curse of Want. However, no matter the object of Want, the Want itself is inherently tied to the cycle of Disparity. All of Life/Creation is also the result of the interplay of Disparity, and is ultimately identified with Sin and Falsehood. Life can never find the end of its wanting and only cycles between dualities such as light and dark. Both are very different worlds. Both can be very distorted, such as the Age of Fire being unnaturally prolonged and the Abyss being a twisted form of Dark. Regardless, both light and dark and their extremities are ultimately part of the cycle. And thus, without enduring reality. They are not Real in the ultimate sense, neither is more Real than the other. As the ending of DS3 hints, it seems the nature of DS reality is flux between ages of Fire and Dark. The manifestation of disparity playing itself out again and again. Worlds, peoples, creatures rise and fall, but no matter how intricate, they are arbitrary arrangements that fall back into formless and meaningless mass, until that mass is formed and dissolves yet again. As the Locust Preachers from DS3 state: “the world began without knowledge, and without knowledge shall it end.” And this seems to be confirmed by what we know of reality before the Flame: formless, vague, devoid of any qualities. Before the Flame, there isn’t anything to attain. After the Flame, whatever is to be attained has no enduring place in ceaseless flux.
@@LastProtagonist. @kaspersaldell So even in situations like the Dragon Path where men seek to escape the cycle, in truth there is no real escape. The “detachment” is in effect a severance, as nothing of what what makes you “you” has any place in Reality, here identified as what is prior (not chronologically, but ontologically) to the Flame. Returning to the opening scene of DS1, before Flame it seems the natural state of beings IS to be hollow and devoid of “thingness”. Returning then to what you said about life and worth, with the nature of Reality in Dark Souls now known to us: the targets men pursue are inherently without worth, whether the ends are tragic or not. There is nothing to hold on to, so whether you do so tightly or loosely, while it may affect you, is unimportant. Creatures may make meanings for themselves (taking up souls, becoming the gods or humans of Dark Souls), which may satisfy them some of the time. But when they look deeper they see all they are has no reality and will end. As Aldia, Scholar of the First Sin says, a lie remains a lie, no matter how apparently beautiful. This is the fear of Gwyn, not so much a lust for power as a despair about the nature of the world, and a desire to“make it real”. The Dark heralded by other characters is itself also without enduring reality. Hence characters like Aldia and Dragon seekers trying to escape the cycle. But, WHAT is this escape? So far as Dark Souls is concerned, it is a return to the state before Flame, which was as we said also lacking any meaning or identity as such. All of this is to say: in Lore videos on Dark Souls, the nature of Reality is spoken of, but not often fully considered. If this is the state of the World, and if what came before was also as it was, then no, there is no worth in life. And leaving the cycle is not life either, but attempting to embody a total lack-wherein things as such are not. I think it is misleading and dangerous to say a meaningful life can be lived while saying all that. Moving outside Dark Souls to the Real World, the game is an important vehicle for reflecting on aspects of Reality, as it was after all made by humans living in this world. I think you are very right it makes us consider the nature of what we pursue. It humbles us by showing us hard truths-the consequences of willful ignorance and pursuing unworthy ends; even in those who seek knowledge and pursue worthy ends, how harsh and difficult life is and how abruptly it may end. It implores us to look deep within ourselves, and reality. And what is Reality? If it is taken to be what we have said, what it is in Dark Souls, then all is moot. But if it is not just that, if it is also More… then the lessons of Dark Souls may help lead us to True Worth. May you both walk a balanced path in this life, strangers.
Yeah we kinda play the interpretation of people who localized the game :| Good thing is Dark Souls always was intended to have something a kin to a "headcanon". So mistranslations aren't that of a big deal. Of course it's always a bid annoying if you want to decypher the riddle.
One thing I don't understand is how a world without the first flame is lifeless, or at least, men would be bound by the curse of undeath, going hollow? Aren't the souls a part or originated from the first flame? If it is so, then wouldn't souls still exist? Why Vendrick and Aldia keep saying that men's original form and without the first flame is the form of a hollow?
Let's friggin' go! I hope you mention Kalameet and "the Cross"! Even if not, I can already tell you're gonna impress me! Edit 1: 5:57 The word Truth is important; Kaathe mainly talks about Truth (O) whereas Aldia mainly talks about Falsehood (X) [e.g. 6:04] Edit 2: 7:01 I've recently thought on how the "eye orbs" aren't just based on behelits, but also the cycloptic "Dwarf-in-the-jar Homunculus" from FMA. Cyclops actually means round eye (i.e. maru), not one eye (as one might expect). Homunculus is derived from homme, meaning man. See also: Daruma. Edit 3: 7:50, possible wordplay homme and home? heart and hearth? I do love your idea of the forlorn being homeless due to being unbound from the bonfire. Wordplay between For-lorn and Four-lorn(shi/death)? Fore-garden and Four-garden? Edit 4: 8:25 Their existence is a sin? "Existence has two poles; sin and the cross." 8:44 reflect the TRUE essence (O; maru) 10:40 binding like a shackle, perhaps? (shikkoku = onyx/fetters, drakekeeper set) 11:28 Pursuer is also a cyclops, like the Daruma. 13:40 Life is something from nothing; CROSSbreed Priscilla is an antithesis to life, an attempt at nothing from something 14:54 Aldia and Sully are apostles of Velka, Sully has a sin sword and a judgment sword, (goddess of sin, judgment set) 16:00 agreed; for instance, nameless king manipulates air because it is a nobject, representing nothingness 17:40 It also draws upon the Sacred-Profane dichotomy (Sacred Lothric Light + Sacred Flame vs. Profaned Flame) 21:15 "Pyromancy is yearning", take heed of this, it's a succinct and direct definition 26:20 Leydia worshipped Velka as Caitha, hence the statues in the crypt and the Denial miracle in Shulva Miscellaneous: The sin symbol in ds2 is 3 perpendicular links of chain. Sorry if this makes little sense, I tried doing a live commentary, but I got a bit carried away.
Also, the Nameless Kind does not manipulate air himself, he is imbued with the air magic only after he mercy-kills his dragon compatriot and consumes its soul into his own. The air related magic is only present in the dragon sword you make out of the Nameless King's soul as well.
@@somecunt8579 On translations: I disagree, agape ring plays on the 2 meanings of agape; "gaping" and the "Love of God". "Abstinence from this elixir may prove to be the truest *homage* to an enduring self..." Also, the *petrified something* is punning off of *X* and *eggs* Thanks for challenging me though, I just realised *homing* soulmass is a pun on *homme* On air manipulation: since you privilege the Japanese text, you should know that both phases have the same name in Japanese, also, you literally fight on a layer of cloud. It feels like a reference to *Wham!* (the truest warrior of the Pillar Men) from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.
@@core-nix1885 You must be right about the agape ring, that line always struck me as odd in the description, thanks. I don't understand how you drew the connection between the fight with the Nameless King and between Wham though.
and humenitey can also be how you also traethers to as for how you actdid around thos around you exzampull you see some one how needs help you can juts walk bey past them or you can stop to see how you maybe aball to help them to your self or maybe you got them the help thay need but if you do not stop and fine uot or ask wat thay need help with you may never wonk if that sam peroins you try to help desidey to be a new frend to you and even tanks you for he help you gave them thas humenitey to
but addume to wood be ther wen she had thos pains fo having his babysis as he sated with her bey her side even wen she was being kikuot the gaerdin and his love for her comfortdid her pain thos y ther also seeing as the first husbana and wefi as thay both stoud bey one and ther even wen being kikuot fo the gaerdin and even aftder that cuz thay had com to see one and ther as eqlisis hav a nices day
think fo this you com bake to life loney to no longer be seeing fo as anye usis to anye one less frends famle thos around you you then being to feel you hav no perpiss in life as every thing up to a point feels as it hads ben all takeing from you anye thing you ones valyoudid is no longer fo valyou to thers thos you av no perpiss thos you are a hollow fo your formerself a shlle with but a ghsoth like in sedey fo the shlle then wat do you do will you must fine a new perpiss for your self thos gaveing bake your humenitey
I always assumed that the original sin was Gwyn trying to suppress the darkness in humanity with the Seal of Fire, leading to the creation of the Darksign, the Undead Curse, and the Abyss.
That's what is heavily implied in DS2
I don't think it was ever said that the Abyss was caused by the Darksign, but I could be wrong.
@@Mrcrazy80 The Abyss in DS1 spawned also from Manus' emotions going out of control. Similarly, the Four Kings being corrupted spawned the Abyss in New Londo.
Yas
The abyss always existed since fire began. The ringed knight's armaments were born from it before having the seal of fire placed on them. The abyss can be ripped open in some places like with manus.
I still think the First Sin is Gwyn's initial linking, and the burden he placed on Humans and the world with it. He started this constant recycling of souls and life preventing the world from going on as, let's say, nature intended through different "ages."
He was also bound by emotion, and throughout the games we learn that this emotion was primarily fear.
Izalith may have committed her own sin with the corruption of the flame of Life and the birth of Chaos, but I think the burden of Gwyn's sin, and the Witch's own ambitions are the motivating factors. She too was fond of the Age of Fire, and she had to gain by recreating the First Flame. It all comes from Gwyn.
I can't read Japanese, but your conclusions largely match my own just from playing the games and reading some of the interviews. I think the Abyss, and the Dark more generally, manifest as desire and passion when they come into contact with life. The darkness in man is why they're considered particularly driven by desire, and it's a double-edged sword in that it provides them purpose, which can serve as a tether for them to linger in the world and maintain some semblance of consciousness, but it also makes them susceptible to being corrupted by their yearning. That's why humanity eats away at fire keepers, why the Profaned Flame devoured most of the inhabitants of the capital, why miracles and spells rooted in humanity and darkness pursue their target, why one of the primary themes of the games is seeking out more souls and, with it, more strength, etc. It also ties in with the Buddhist connections in these games. Ego and desire are profoundly linked and they bind people to karma and reincarnation. The Undead seem to have a connection to that concept, some of them are able to maintain a sense of self if they have a purpose or they prey upon the humanity of others, while those who don't have a sense of purpose any more just become mindlessly hungry like classic zombies. I don't think it's a coincidence, for example, that the Crestfallen Warrior becomes a Hollow once he no longer has a role as a guide to the Chosen Undead, once Frampt takes over that role he finally is robbed of his sense of self. But of course, the Gods started as Hollows too, and flame is often described as hungry or thirsty as well. So maybe the Gods and similar beings are more ruled by their desires than they'd care to admit, and there's less of a difference between them and humans than they'd like to believe. After all, they were so attached to the world as it was they used most of it as kindling for the First Flame. Even Nito tries to take hold of more of the world for himself.
I like some of the translations you made in regards to Shanalotte's line and Aged Feather, as well as the points on the other curses in regards to Aldia experiments. As you know I dove into this subject, and while I agree with most of the points made in this video, I think some evidences could be added to make your points even stronger.
“The keyword that came to mind was “deep curse." I wasn’t thinking about the curse that turns
characters into hollows, but instead of the karma they convey with them.” - Tanimura in Famitsu Design Works interview. I confirmed with Claude that for the most part (some exceptions still), "karma" and "fate" are used interchangeably in the text, meaning the mention of "karma" in Agdayne's Kilt desc, where it is stated to be synonymous with life and suffering, is the same word used for "fate" in Aldia and Shanalotte's dialogues, where they talk about overcoming it. I think this further hints that karma/fate/life/yearning was the Original Sin, especially since in the aforementioned interview Tanimura outright says that the karma/fate conveyed by the character is synonymous with the deep curse that was the keyword behind DS2 entirely. Besides, I think it would be very fitting and logical for "Scholar of the First Sin" to end up being part of the game's title if it's directly related to the main idea behind the game as a whole.
I think categorizing sin as an expression of desire is appropriate. In this regard, it's important to note how dark is stated by the DS1 intro and Grandhal to be the mother of all things that lived, since as you noted dark is strongly associated with desire, true essence of life as told by the Ancient Dragon (who happens to be a creation of Aldia) and Miyazaki in DS1 design works interview. Specifically, humans are known to be the most greedy people, probably owning to their dark soul, going by what Patches in TRC, Ciaran, Shira, and the Rat King say. You also noted how Wrathful Axe desc talks about the children of dark who took form in a way that hints about humans true nature, which as told by Vendrick and Yuria is their hollow form, where their thirst for soul/life/power is the most apparent, a trait that is very obvious in the children of dark as well. Most of this is stuff you pointed out in your previous videos but I think they are very relevant in an analysis of sin as well.
Main reason to bring humans/hollow in particular in the analysis is because according to Oswald, "it is only human to commit a sin". Your translation of Karla's dialogue further confirms this, since according to you she says that "she's a sinner, since she's a wretched child of the abyss of man". Mechanically, it is relevant to consider that according to DS1 Red Eye Orb, the invading Darkwraiths steal humanity "and plunge further into dark. Perhaps they are more human thatn we ?", and a successful invasion results ina PVP sin. On the other hand, the DS1 Red Sign Soapstone reads that "some darkwraiths resist their descent into dark" by conserving the path of honor, and summoned darkwraiths do not commit a sin by killing the host. Imo, you can safely conclude that sinning makes you more human and leads you to descend into dark, particularily present in human. This makes sense too in the case of the Profaned Flame/Flame of Sin, since it has "consumed naught but human flesh" and is abyssal in nature according to Andre 5profaned Coal also unlocks the Dark and Hollow infusion).
Finally, something that confirms the link between sin and the Undead Curse is an obscure DS2 mechanic: according to wikidot, if you sin enough and gets the title of "Wretch", the reduction upon hollowing of your max HP bar is no longer capped at the usual 50% but at something like 5%. In other words, you can become more hollow by sinning enough, and since hollow is stated to be the true face of humans, known for their dark and yearning nature...
There are more things that could be added (for instance, dragons being not alive according to Miyazaki and the games text as well the fact that people like Aldia and the Drakeblood Knight take interest in dragons because they live on a less shitty plane of existence), but I think these are the main things I wanted to add to reinforce the ideas.
DS2 and 3 do make multiple mentions of Want. Vendricks's Shield in DS3, the Shield of Want, and the Ancient Dragon's dialogue about how the curse of life is the curse of want do back up the notion that sin is motivated by desire.
But Sin mechanically gets confusing because you can be committing a sin in the eyes of the Darkmoon and the Way of White as a religion, but the gravity and nature of it are, to me, different from the sins commited by Gwyn and Izalith.
Gwyn and her were both motivated by fear and other emotions to go through the Linking and the tampering of the Flame of Life to recreate the First Flame.
*They live on a less shitty plane of existence* That was pretty funny actually :D
Oh. I think I got it.
Prayers, wishes, curses - they're all the same thing.
They're all what someone vehemently desires.
When you curse someone, you pour your feelings into them - your hatred, your malice, your grudge - essentially praying for harm to come to them.
And the curse of life is the curse of want.
It's like how the intensity of an onryou's feelings weigh it down to the living world so that it can act in accordance with its regrets and desire for vengeance. Their entire existence is consumed by that desire, but it's the thing that allows them to go beyond death.
Just like the Undead need a purpose to retain any semblance of individuality and selfhood. Once they give up or have their desires fulfilled, they lose their grip on themselves and go Hollow even if they never die.
Oh word? This interpretation aligns perfectly with how the games portrays life, curses, etc.
Yes, pyromancy and miracles are all based in desire, which is why all of the Hexes (due to their proximity to Dark) are heavily related to more animalistic human emotions.
On a related note, I really don't understand why there are dark pyromancies in DS3, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
@@somecunt8579 yeah, the dark pyros complicate stuff around the Profaned Flame. And its abyssal nature.
L
I love how you hesitate to bring up Velka, since every other TH-cam lore video tries to make everything about Velka an every character an avatar of Velka 😂
That's exactly why I hesitate to bring her up, lol
I always assumed I “in Aldia” meant something like “in Aldia’s workshop”. Maybe not by him, per se, but under his supervision.
Excellent video as always. All true Soulsbourne fan should see your videos.
I do not think that the first sin is Gwyn linking the First Flame necessarily, but rather binding humanity to it. Due to the various item descriptions from the Ringed City dlc it appears that humanity and anything forged in the Abyss was branded with a ring of fire. Additionally, humanity were the footsoldiers of the gods during the war with the Everlasting Dragons, so presumably they were bound to fire before the First Flame began to fade.
I am sure to be missing something, however, but I am curious about your thoughts on the matter.
I agree. I always through that Gwyn, scared always and already about forecoming Age of Dark, saw humanity as a carriers of Dark Soul, saw humanity multiply, and thought 'Hey, instead of burning something valuable in First Kiln, I will link that scary/disgusted Dark Soul fragments to bonfires so those rapidly multiplying humans will power my Age of Light. Free fuel forever!'
It didn't work this way, so at the end Gwyn had to link himself to fire as well.
I dunno. I've been thinking that the Pygmy(ies) made a deal with Gwyn. He would leave them alone to remain amongst each other undisturbed at the Ringed City, while they would provide a number of Slave Knights who were undying to be cannon fodder for Gwyn's assault on the dragons. The Pygmies needed a guarantee that Gwyn would stick to the deal, so he left Filianore with them. She would also carry an illusion of paradise so that the pygmies would be eternally blissful and unaware when their world crumbled over time (since they're undead/immortal).
I also believe, without evidence, that the egg Filianore held may not have contained a dragon as most people speculate, but rather a/the Dark Soul itself. Look again at it, close up. It looks like a dark crystal, similar to that on Midir's body.
I have other thoughts but it's difficult to piece it all together right now
@@herrzyklon The Gwyn statue in the Ringed City suggests a pose of subservience for the pygmies. Given that everything related to Gwyn is some kind of lie or deception, I don't think it makes sense to interpret the relationship between the two factions as being on anything like even footing, certainly not to the degree that Gwyn would feel compelled to leave his daughter there for eternity. I think it's more reasonable to assume that whatever reasons Gwyn might have given the pygmies for doing what he was doing were lies and shouldn't be taken at face value even when they aren't outright falsehoods.
The illusion of Filianore isn't the Ringed City. The city is sinking down into ruin along with everything else after all, not much of an illusion.
The illusion of Filianore is related to time and may even be an illusion of time itself. I think the only time we ever see the present in DS is in the Gael arena. Everything else is "in the past" but in the sense that the past is a fabrication created by the linking of the fire and the dreaming of Filianore.
I agree with your interpretation of the first sin being the binding of humanity to the cycle of fire linking. I think, however, that this is why your second idea is incorrect.
I don't think the process of fire linking started until after the dragons were defeated.
Gwyn used the power of the first flame to help destroy the dragons and build a world centered around his own power. There was no reason for the linking process to exist at all until the first flame began to fade, as linking the fire is the solution to the problem of the first flame fading.
Rainbow Krampus i did not say they were bound by the linking of the fire, but were instead bound and branded by it. Humanity were enslaved by the gods, even the weapons and armor they made in the Abyss were branded to keep the darkness within at bay. The First Sin, as i should have clarifies, was the gods binding humanities darkness with fire; the Dark Sign, if you will.
I always thought the first sin was Geyn putting the darksign on humans, since that basically led them to an eternity of trying to link the flame and suffering along the way. Unless someone were to break the curse, humans would pretty much be doomed forever. The humans still try to link the flame to the point where in Ds3, even though people can see the world is crumbling because they keep linking the flame, they still try to do it.
I think the connections you've found between emotions, desire, life, death, and the curse are really compelling. I'm not as familiar with the Dark Souls trilogy's lore or themes as I am with Bloodborne's, but as I understand it these ideas would also tie in well with some of the central questions the Dark Souls games ask, especially regarding linking the fire.
Furthermore, as someone who's always interested in the topic of translation, I found the whole section on the Pursuer fascinating. The potential double-meaning of one who binds others with a curse while also being bound by one is great. Furthermore, it strikes me that the line quoted at 12:01 could be employing another set of double-meanings with "命", since that kanji can refer to orders, life, or fate. In other words, this could potentially be a way of saying both "the Curse-binder was given orders to hunt those who possess the sign," or "the Curse-bound was granted the fate of hunting those who possess the sign." You've got more context than me here, so maybe that's not right, but I think it's an interesting alternative consideration.
Finally, just as a brief note, I like your potential re-interpretation of 空より生じ as "born from thin air". As you say, it preserves some ambiguity, and it sounds natural as well. Thanks for the thoughtful video!
Glad you brought up 命. When I was looking over it, I did wonder if it was supposed to be meant in the sense of "fate," but I felt like it might have been stretching it a bit too much without more context to read it that way. Thanks for the comment.
@@LastProtagonist Thanks for the reply! I agree it seems like a stretch, but since it meshes well with the potential double-meaning of "呪縛者," I wanted to mention it. It's nice to hear it was a possibility you considered as well!
@@arukimania こちらこそｗｗｗ
I know I'm just one dude but god damn man you make some of the most interesting and in-depth vids of the lore of the games that I love the most. I sincerely hope you get some more subs asap cause holy shit I've been watching your content for a LONG time now, over a year, and even going back and watching your live stuff I learned a bunch of shit I didn't know and was curious about. I feel like that is something that is very much missing with the mainstream content like VaatiVidya content. I actually prefer this over Vaati's content any day. The specifics are so fucking appreciated especially when it comes to English vs Japanese stuff, man I love that!! Also tackling even the SUPER ambiguous stuff in Japanese and English is super appreciated!
It makes sense that living and the drive/desire to live would be the first sin. That also plays into the Throne of Want. Interesting stuff, I had always thought the first sin was the linking of the first flame which spurred on this groundhogs day of events relating to life and curses to keep happening.
Nein
Bro I’m so excited for your breakdowns of Elden ring stuff hell yes! This is a good year for From Fans!:)))
I always thought the first sin was trying to recreate the first flame
I feel the same, pretty much. Makes more sense that the Japanese resembles “original sin” more, too. Gwyn’s inability to allow his age of fire to end, for nature to takes its course, could represent the human tendency to hold onto things past the point of what’s good for us, and the weakness therein. That would be the first sin for me 🤔
Yeah, something was always stinking a bit in theory that the "first" sin was Gwyn linking the flame. Not only it doesn't make sense to call it any "missuse", as fires always burn on something, so the First Flame always had fuel and Gwyn just added more of it. Disparity also came when the First Flame arrived. With that said, I'd bet that the original sin came together with that Disparity. This is when life and death appeared, and the original sin is linked to said life. I'd support your thesis that the sin is holding into the life, it goes well in line with the motive of "letting things go". Original sin in christianity is something everybody has, and everything that's alive truly wants to live. Even procreation serves that purpose, we pass on our genes, which are kind of "bricks" living things (including human) are built off, so we let a physical part of ourselves live beyond death in our offspring.
I never took the Elenora description to mean the monsteocities of sin but rather the women tending to the flame that shoot fire balls from the kiln of sin TM - as in they, just like the izalith witch, messed with the flame or created it, which then exploded and created a bed for monstrocities. Chaos flame making demons and sin flame making the monstrosities of sin.
Where in izalith there's culture and the witches even tried to ease the suffering of ceaseless, the women of the profaned capital couldn't care less about the suffering they caused with their flame, because they delight in that very suffering.
I don't celebrate Christmas, but if THIS is what it feels like to get Christmas presents, then damn I'm missing out!
Ok I have too much to say in one comment, so I picked this:
My hyperfixation for the the games and their lore and themes keeps on going. I'm absorbed by meditations on life and emotions this channel has discovered and put up on display (thanks btw \ITI/ ). To think a couple video games would enrich my inner life in such a way.
Sorry for being dramatic. It's just a silly obsession.
Just an obsession all of us share, Dark Souls was released 10 years ago. And here we are still debating over what it means.
Amazing as always!
The thing that really interests me is the profaned flame/ flame of sin.
Essentially I see what makes the profaned flame well profaned/ a sin is that it isn't Gwyn's flame. It is blasphemous and sort of like an alternative to the Yuria ending- it's taking power from the Gods.
In order for the Gods to have power the first flame must be "linked" / fueled by powerful souls to prevent it's fading/ going out.
The chaos flame also provided power but as seen in ds3 it too faded and it's power left.
The profaned/ sin flame is said to never go out and based on what I've said so far, I think it's safe to say the flames themselves are analogs to the souls found in the ds1 cinematic. Gwyn found the first flame. Quelanna found the chaos flame, and the profaned flame I think must be what the pygmy found, a dark soul flame.
It allows for the tie in to the ringed city and gwyn fearing the latent power of the dark soul and sealing it behind the ring brand. It allows for the flame to be both of sin and fueled by sin including why it burned naught but human flesh.
It explains why linking the first flame (as yohrm said he would) would combat the profaned flame- because it would be giving power to the god's to combat those who use the profaned flame's power just like what the ringed city shows.
----
So i think what happened was the main character of the story is pontif sulyvahn who is born in the painted world of ariendel. It's presumed his mother was one of the flame trees due to some cut content dialogue from the one guarding snap freeze before the ladder drops as well as sully's root covered face And tree wings that burst out of his back but I don't think that matters beyond a nice little easter egg that fire is a very part of his being.
Who else has set up a church here but a lady of londor herself, sister to yuria and servant of dark stalker kaathe.
With those kinds of influences it's no wonder that the pontif is a secret whisperer against linking the flame
So perhaps on a hint from kaathe and co where to find the profaned capital sully went there and
He discovered a flame that never faded and could challenge the power of the gods and could grant himself a kingdom.
I'm not sure how he would have gotten in with the lotheric family - perhaps other lore sheds light on that- but once in he began whispering in lotheric's ear not to link the flame but to let it wither and fade because then - the dark prince himself , sullyvahn, could wrestle the flame from its mantle utilizing the profaned flame in its place.
In order to do this he had to remove the influences of the old gods such as gwyndolin (fed to aldrich) and who's presumably gwynevere but called rosaria (imprisoned in the cathedral of the deep)
It seems aldritch saw the deep sea end or was told it by sully and thought that a way towards that was the profaned flame and decided a partnership was in order. Aldritch gets to eat and sully becomes pontiff and takes over the role of religious leadership ala pontif.
A pontif is one who's comuning with the higher powers directly and disseminating that info like a prophet but one institutionalized in a governmental role- its why yorshka says he falsely proclaimed himself pontif as how could there be one when the gods (or at least gwyndolin) are right there in the city - however if gwyndolin was still living in secret with the illusion of gwynovere it would make sense why the pontif was able to fool everyone- for there were no god's left to challenge his words particularly once gwyndolin and yorshka were imprisoned.
However why can sulyvahn and the witches of irathyl use the profaned flame if it's a flame of humans? Is it the same way that we kill gods and use their souls to ignite the first flame with no benefit to us besides the release of death? Perhaps the pontif could use the flame but never actually become a dark lord of hollows like a human can- which is why the pilgrims and londor church still whisper in the ears of many such as the player and anri. If we see how both yoel and anri's pilgrims are presumably killed by yuria - the hollows of londor have no attachments to those they work with. By the time we "marry" anri and kill pontif it's clear we're front runner so that's what we get supported where as curing the dark sigil or messing with anri's pilgrim prematurely will turn them against us and the pale shade hunts us down as a fire linking threat.
(Sorry for the ramble, stoned and first draft lore ranting 🤣)
I've thought a bit about what the First Sin could have been, and as weird as it might sound, I think it may have been the Advent of Fire and the harnessing of the Lord Souls. Until the Advent of Fire there was no such thing as Disparity, no life or death. If life is related to sin, I find it hard to believe that the creation of life isn't also the creation of sin. Gwyn's fear of the Dark and sins of shackling Humanity and relinking the fire, thereby perpetuating the existence of both life and sin, never would have occurred had the Flame itself not created the concept of sin by being the First Sin. Likewise, the Witch's sin of creating the Chaos Flame and whatever corrupted form of life the Demons are never would have happened without a First Sin.
Anyway, that's just my headcanon.
I love the lore of Dark Souls, and it's quite fun to learn the differences between the original Japanese and the English translation.
I always believed the First sin was Gwyn linking the flame and going against the natural order.
You mention that there's no evidence that Velka has anything to the Profaned Capital/Capital of Sin, but there is to a degree that I've never seen anyone mention before and that's the gargoyles. They are always in the vicinity of her influence such as Oswald of Carim, the Painting, Profaned Capital and the Lost Bastille area. The only thing I'm not completely sure on is whether the gargoyles are aligned or against Velka. Either way the locations of the gargoyles do not come across as a coincidence.
I want to offer a small point. We know that the profaned flame existed during yhorm's time and that he became a lord of cinder in order to put it to rest. Knowing this, the fire mentioned in the profane flame pyromancy does not refer to the profane flame itself, but the first flame claiming yhorm's human subjects as kindling after his attempt to link the flame. This gives further credence to the theory that the first flame uses exclusively humans as kindling, since yhorm was a giant he was unfit.
What I'm leaning towards is that the monstrosities of sin attempted to recreate the first flame, but instead of using the whole of the soul of life like the witch of izalith did which lead to chaos spawning new life, they used fragments of the dark soul, hence why some characters can see the abyss in it and why it can inspire in people emotions associated with the dark.
As always, lit.
The first sin is the breaking of the logic of the world.
According to Aldia. The question remains in which place was that logic broken. Gwyn didn't light the Firt Flame, only prolonged it. It still faded away, as it doesn't burn any longer where the first Lords have aquired their souls. We fight Midir in there.
I think the sin refers to the lie Aldia speaks off (a lie will remain a lie) which is loosely analogous to the Buddhist concept of Maya.
Dear Last Protagonist,
if life is just suffering, and to continue living is suffering, then tell me why shouldn't I just give in and fucking kill myself ASAP? Are you saying that these games are inherently nihilistic and anti-life or something like that? It sure sounds like that, with the way you're explaining them.
Just because there's suffering, that doesn't mean life isn't worth living. The games show it's human nature to pursue their target, no matter how trite or tragic the ending may be. So be free to pursue life, but don't hold onto it so tightly that it causes more pain and suffering for others.
In Buddhism for example, the way to rise above suffering is through detachment, not severance. It's analogous to the way men who follow the path of the dragon via meditation leave the "cycle" by letting go of their desires and their "darkness."
@@LastProtagonist@kaspersaldell
I have seen this exchange echoed across many videos on DS. The question it addresses is at the heart of all things.
As in those conversations, I feel something is missing in your response. I don’t feel it goes to the root of OP’s question. It does not speak of metaphysics, which must be considered in a discussion of ultimate questions.
Let us consider the point made about life still having meaning. Despite the existence of suffering, so long as it is pursued without holding on too tightly, or by hurting others.
If we consider the Lore of Dark Souls, there is ultimately nothing worth pursuing, because Worth as such, just as Life, is of Disparity, identified with Flame, and equivalent with Sin, Falsehood, Ignorance, and Suffering.
Harming others holds no meaning (within DS) because others, just as yourself, are ultimately equally worthless.
All of you, all of what makes you you, is from the Flame, where wandering hollow-like creatures seen in the intro to DS1 found souls and became recognizable things with identities.
Even the Everlasting Dragons were changed by the Flame, though they existed before it, hence how they were able to be fought against and possessed souls.
The nature of man in the context of the Flame, which is equivalent with Disparity, is Want/Desire. As the Ancient Dragon in DS2 says, the Curse of Life is the Curse of Want.
However, no matter the object of Want, the Want itself is inherently tied to the cycle of Disparity. All of Life/Creation is also the result of the interplay of Disparity, and is ultimately identified with Sin and Falsehood.
Life can never find the end of its wanting and only cycles between dualities such as light and dark. Both are very different worlds. Both can be very distorted, such as the Age of Fire being unnaturally prolonged and the Abyss being a twisted form of Dark. Regardless, both light and dark and their extremities are ultimately part of the cycle. And thus, without enduring reality. They are not Real in the ultimate sense, neither is more Real than the other.
As the ending of DS3 hints, it seems the nature of DS reality is flux between ages of Fire and Dark. The manifestation of disparity playing itself out again and again. Worlds, peoples, creatures rise and fall, but no matter how intricate, they are arbitrary arrangements that fall back into formless and meaningless mass, until that mass is formed and dissolves yet again.
As the Locust Preachers from DS3 state: “the world began without knowledge, and without knowledge shall it end.” And this seems to be confirmed by what we know of reality before the Flame: formless, vague, devoid of any qualities. Before the Flame, there isn’t anything to attain. After the Flame, whatever is to be attained has no enduring place in ceaseless flux.
@@LastProtagonist. @kaspersaldell
So even in situations like the Dragon Path where men seek to escape the cycle, in truth there is no real escape.
The “detachment” is in effect a severance, as nothing of what what makes you “you” has any place in Reality, here identified as what is prior (not chronologically, but ontologically) to the Flame.
Returning to the opening scene of DS1, before Flame it seems the natural state of beings IS to be hollow and devoid of “thingness”.
Returning then to what you said about life and worth, with the nature of Reality in Dark Souls now known to us: the targets men pursue are inherently without worth, whether the ends are tragic or not. There is nothing to hold on to, so whether you do so tightly or loosely, while it may affect you, is unimportant.
Creatures may make meanings for themselves (taking up souls, becoming the gods or humans of Dark Souls), which may satisfy them some of the time. But when they look deeper they see all they are has no reality and will end. As Aldia, Scholar of the First Sin says, a lie remains a lie, no matter how apparently beautiful.
This is the fear of Gwyn, not so much a lust for power as a despair about the nature of the world, and a desire to“make it real”.
The Dark heralded by other characters is itself also without enduring reality.
Hence characters like Aldia and Dragon seekers trying to escape the cycle. But, WHAT is this escape? So far as Dark Souls is concerned, it is a return to the state before Flame, which was as we said also lacking any meaning or identity as such.
All of this is to say: in Lore videos on Dark Souls, the nature of Reality is spoken of, but not often fully considered.
If this is the state of the World, and if what came before was also as it was, then no, there is no worth in life. And leaving the cycle is not life either, but attempting to embody a total lack-wherein things as such are not.
I think it is misleading and dangerous to say a meaningful life can be lived while saying all that.
Moving outside Dark Souls to the Real World, the game is an important vehicle for reflecting on aspects of Reality, as it was after all made by humans living in this world.
I think you are very right it makes us consider the nature of what we pursue. It humbles us by showing us hard truths-the consequences of willful ignorance and pursuing unworthy ends; even in those who seek knowledge and pursue worthy ends, how harsh and difficult life is and how abruptly it may end.
It implores us to look deep within ourselves, and reality.
And what is Reality? If it is taken to be what we have said, what it is in Dark Souls, then all is moot. But if it is not just that, if it is also More… then the lessons of Dark Souls may help lead us to True Worth.
May you both walk a balanced path in this life, strangers.
Yeah we kinda play the interpretation of people who localized the game :|
Good thing is Dark Souls always was intended to have something a kin to a "headcanon". So mistranslations aren't that of a big deal.
Of course it's always a bid annoying if you want to decypher the riddle.
OH FUCK YEAH
i spelled youtube wrong in google and i somehow ended up here
3hrs? I got time
I don't, but I'll make it
Ung, why does youtube not tell me about videos for channels I'm subscribed to? =(
Fantastic quality man. In the shadow of Vatiia, maybe try to to fit less information in smaller videos :) love you and wish you nothing but success
One thing I don't understand is how a world without the first flame is lifeless, or at least, men would be bound by the curse of undeath, going hollow?
Aren't the souls a part or originated from the first flame? If it is so, then wouldn't souls still exist?
Why Vendrick and Aldia keep saying that men's original form and without the first flame is the form of a hollow?
Let's friggin' go!
I hope you mention Kalameet and "the Cross"!
Even if not, I can already tell you're gonna impress me!
Edit 1: 5:57 The word Truth is important; Kaathe mainly talks about Truth (O) whereas Aldia mainly talks about Falsehood (X) [e.g. 6:04]
Edit 2: 7:01 I've recently thought on how the "eye orbs" aren't just based on behelits, but also the cycloptic "Dwarf-in-the-jar Homunculus" from FMA. Cyclops actually means round eye (i.e. maru), not one eye (as one might expect). Homunculus is derived from homme, meaning man. See also: Daruma.
Edit 3: 7:50, possible wordplay homme and home? heart and hearth? I do love your idea of the forlorn being homeless due to being unbound from the bonfire. Wordplay between For-lorn and Four-lorn(shi/death)? Fore-garden and Four-garden?
Edit 4: 8:25 Their existence is a sin? "Existence has two poles; sin and the cross."
8:44 reflect the TRUE essence (O; maru)
10:40 binding like a shackle, perhaps? (shikkoku = onyx/fetters, drakekeeper set)
11:28 Pursuer is also a cyclops, like the Daruma.
13:40 Life is something from nothing; CROSSbreed Priscilla is an antithesis to life, an attempt at nothing from something
14:54 Aldia and Sully are apostles of Velka, Sully has a sin sword and a judgment sword, (goddess of sin, judgment set)
16:00 agreed; for instance, nameless king manipulates air because it is a nobject, representing nothingness
17:40 It also draws upon the Sacred-Profane dichotomy (Sacred Lothric Light + Sacred Flame vs. Profaned Flame)
21:15 "Pyromancy is yearning", take heed of this, it's a succinct and direct definition
26:20 Leydia worshipped Velka as Caitha, hence the statues in the crypt and the Denial miracle in Shulva
Miscellaneous: The sin symbol in ds2 is 3 perpendicular links of chain.
Sorry if this makes little sense, I tried doing a live commentary, but I got a bit carried away.
Sadly the english translation is largely unrelated to the original, I hardly think the wordplays were intentional.
Also, the Nameless Kind does not manipulate air himself, he is imbued with the air magic only after he mercy-kills his dragon compatriot and consumes its soul into his own. The air related magic is only present in the dragon sword you make out of the Nameless King's soul as well.
@@somecunt8579 On translations: I disagree, agape ring plays on the 2 meanings of agape; "gaping" and the "Love of God". "Abstinence from this elixir may prove to be the truest *homage* to an enduring self..."
Also, the *petrified something* is punning off of *X* and *eggs*
Thanks for challenging me though, I just realised *homing* soulmass is a pun on *homme*
On air manipulation: since you privilege the Japanese text, you should know that both phases have the same name in Japanese, also, you literally fight on a layer of cloud. It feels like a reference to *Wham!* (the truest warrior of the Pillar Men) from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.
@@core-nix1885 You must be right about the agape ring, that line always struck me as odd in the description, thanks. I don't understand how you drew the connection between the fight with the Nameless King and between Wham though.
@@somecunt8579 they both use the wind/air as a means of augmenting themselves in battle
Doesn’t kaathe say that gwyn linking the first flame is the first sin?
The answer to this question and the question on the other video is no
this isn't resident evil
i'm having isssue with audio and video, am i the only one?
and humenitey can also be how you also traethers to as for how you actdid around thos around you exzampull you see some one how needs help you can juts walk bey past them or you can stop to see how you maybe aball to help them to your self or maybe you got them the help thay need but if you do not stop and fine uot or ask wat thay need help with you may never wonk if that sam peroins you try to help desidey to be a new frend to you and even tanks you for he help you gave them thas humenitey to
but addume to wood be ther wen she had thos pains fo having his babysis as he sated with her bey her side even wen she was being kikuot the gaerdin and his love for her comfortdid her pain thos y ther also seeing as the first husbana and wefi as thay both stoud bey one and ther even wen being kikuot fo the gaerdin and even aftder that cuz thay had com to see one and ther as eqlisis hav a nices day
Vaati ain't got shit on you.
think fo this you com bake to life loney to no longer be seeing fo as anye usis to anye one less frends famle thos around you you then being to feel you hav no perpiss in life as every thing up to a point feels as it hads ben all takeing from you anye thing you ones valyoudid is no longer fo valyou to thers thos you av no perpiss thos you are a hollow fo your formerself a shlle with but a ghsoth like in sedey fo the shlle then wat do you do will you must fine a new perpiss for your self thos gaveing bake your humenitey